From uvadavidg at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 00:28:00 2008 From: uvadavidg at GMAIL.COM (David Gignilliat) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200811302144.mAUBl8WI013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by this . My mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts asking me about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly saying no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... alas On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a > library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener > Library, often, patrons would ask me > > "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains > so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a > person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, > asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow > you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has > no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone that > has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a > question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether > he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get > out of. > > I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they > could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by > asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's > request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act > of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that > i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. > They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only > jollying me. > > Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who is > bothered by this, but > > AAARRRGGGHHH!!! > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- David K. Gignilliat Woodbridge, VA 703-217-4380 http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 1 00:34:13 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:34:13 -0500 Subject: "wise, holy, just. and good" In-Reply-To: A<200811300650.mAU6oWNo009457@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A version of this is in the early Articles of Faith and Covenant, which apparently date from 1629. As reprinted in Nathaniel Morton, New England's Memorial 460 (6th ed. 1855), the Confession of Faith contained in the Articles begins: "I do believe with my heart and confess with my mouth:-- That there is but one only true God in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; each of them God, and all of them one and the same infinite, eternal God: most wise, holy, just, merciful, and blessed for ever." The Articles were drawn up by a Mr. Higginson, a non-conformist minister. I suspect that they were based on a model from 16th or 17th century England. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:50 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "wise, holy, just. and good" What is the origin of the phrase describing God (and sometimes man) as "wise, holy, just, and good"? Google Books takes it back to 1796, in John Gill, A Complete Body of Divinity. (It also claims a 1584 date for The Creeds of Christendom ..., by Philip Schaff, but this is actually 1877.) It is apparently part of the creed of "Independent (or Congregational) Dissenters", from the 1830s. But does it come from an earlier writing of the "dissenters", which might place it in the late 1500s, or perhaps from a Latin text, or from the Bible? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 01:08:05 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:08:05 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010028.mAUBl89g013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me greatly. There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or that the question is of particular importance to the asker. What wording is preferred? BB On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Gignilliat > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by > this . My > mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts > asking me > about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly > saying > no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... > > alas > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >> Library, often, patrons would ask me >> >> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> >> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains >> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a >> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, >> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has >> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >> that >> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a >> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether >> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get >> out of. >> >> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by >> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act >> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that >> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >> jollying me. >> >> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >> is >> bothered by this, but >> >> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >> >> -Wilson >> >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >> to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > David K. Gignilliat > Woodbridge, VA > 703-217-4380 > http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 01:34:56 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:34:56 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200806140159.m5E1xSCI001500@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: if anyone's still tracking this... tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ someone, ie, to interrogate/torture for information. > > > > A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we > > were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back > > to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: > > > > "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." > > > > A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a > > set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. > > That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all > > in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, > > which keeps everything from falling off. > > > > But are there other television shows or television characters which > > have become verbs? > > > > ----- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 1 02:02:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:02:44 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <31a485c70811301734m3a36c6b5qe5e53803a3da9ddc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:38 PM -0500 11/30/08, Marc Velasco wrote: >if anyone's still tracking this... >tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ someone, >ie, to interrogate/torture for information. Speaking of the verbal MacGyver, here's one in print from today's NYT Book Review: The father, a dentist who has quit his practice in Fairbanks, imagines himself as a high-north survivalist. He is, in fact, woefully unprepared. He does not know the name of the nearest inhabited island or how to build a cache for winter food or how to repair the cabin's damaged roof or how to keep the bears away. (Not everyone who lives in places like Alaska is born knowing how to MacGyver a water filter out of bark.) [review by Tom Bissell of David Vann's book, _Legend of a Suicide_] LH > >> > >> > A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >> > were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back >> > to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >> > >> > "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." >> > >> > A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a >> > set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. >> > That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all >> > in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, >> > which keeps everything from falling off. >> > >> > But are there other television shows or television characters which >> > have become verbs? >> > >> > ----- >> >> > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 03:27:30 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:27:30 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! Message-ID: In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: "This is where we need to give the devil his do. " (Just faintly reminiscent of Papa Bush being coy.) AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 03:37:09 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:37:09 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! In-Reply-To: <200812010328.mAUBl89o013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > > In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations > contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: > "This is where we need > to give the devil his do. " "Give (someone) his/her do" is covered in the Eggcorn Database entry for "due -> do": http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/471/do/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 03:43:35 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:43:35 -0500 Subject: "gerrymander" antedatings (by about 2 months) Message-ID: The OED has "gerrymander" (n.) from 1812 May 23. 1) Repertory, published as The Repertory & General Advertiser; Date: 03-27-1812; Volume: IX; Issue: 25; Page: [2]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [EAN]: [Title of the illustration:] "The Gerry-mander. A new species of Monster, which appeared in Essex South District in January last." 2) Repertory, published as The Repertory & General Advertiser; Date: 03-27-1812; Volume: IX; Issue: 25; Page: [3]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [EAN]: "We have thrown the Monster Gerry-mander upon his back; and we trust that in this position he will scratch out the eyes of his parents." [The illustration is printed with North at the left, so the head and feet are uppermost.] 3) The diary of William Bentley, D.D., pastor of the East Church, Salem, Massachusetts. Salem, Mass.: The Essex Institute, 1905-14. Reprint, Gloucester Mass.: P. Smith, 1962. Vol. IV, page 402. 1812 April 2: "The division of this County into districts has given an opportunity for a Caracatura stamped at Boston & freely circulated here called the Gerrymander. The towns as they lie are disposed as part of a monster whose feet & claws are Salem and Marblehead. It is one of those political tricks which have success has far as they go. This division favours much the hopes of retaining a republican senate, & therefore must be a sure object of party vengeance." [The bend of the neck is Methuen and the head (at the northeast) is Saslisbury.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 03:53:50 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:53:50 -0500 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200811301855.mAUBl8Qc013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the text. The same for astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach-potato-style.html or these www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato-you-decide.html www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. Herb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually > talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an > eggcorn. BB > > First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: > > ----- > YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 > ) > > A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) > > Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor > ----- > > There are also items that are clearly typos: > > ----- > 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers > were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression "couch > potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms > the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 > ) > > What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly > evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the > archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm > ) > ----- > > There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: > > ----- > Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... > > "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd get > home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the > couch and watch TV.... > > "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a > significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin > gold-medallist Duff Gibson. > > (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 > ) > ----- > > Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a typo: > > ----- > 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour before > practice/game, so half of the team shows up; > * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't > exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most > his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato > ) > > The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when > Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should happen. > > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Herb Stahlke >> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >> column: >> >> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other aspects >> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >> year. >> >> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number drops >> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 04:02:49 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:02:49 -0800 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812010353.mAUBl8Ag013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If it's an eggcorn, wouldn't it be consistent rather than one in the title and another in the text? Also, I don't know that the distant position of "o" and "a" on the QWERTY board is necessarily telling. Just guessing, it seems reasonable that "a" after "o" is easier than "u" after "o" because it's an alternation of hands. Without looking at each one, I think www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 is excellent evidence of "coach" being a typo. One other possibility is whether "couch" is a universal word. It is the default in Seattle for a davenport/sofa, but I have the feeling that "sofa" is more common in some regions, in which case the eggcorn case would be stronger. BB On Nov 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious > plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at > > www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory > > where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the > text. The same for > > astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html > findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 > www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- > www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 > www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 > archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html > > It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo > > ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach- > potato-style.html > > or these > > www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 > mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato- > you-decide.html > www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html > twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 > www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ > www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 > talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html? > forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 > findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 > http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 > adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html > > That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of > "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, > and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given > the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip > typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and > I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other > hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But > there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. > > Herb > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually >> talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an >> eggcorn. BB >> >> First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: >> >> ----- >> YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >> ) >> >> A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) >> >> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor >> ----- >> >> There are also items that are clearly typos: >> >> ----- >> 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers >> were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression >> "couch >> potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms >> the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 >> ) >> >> What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly >> evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the >> archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm >> ) >> ----- >> >> There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: >> >> ----- >> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... >> >> "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd >> get >> home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the >> couch and watch TV.... >> >> "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a >> significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin >> gold-medallist Duff Gibson. >> >> (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 >> ) >> ----- >> >> Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a >> typo: >> >> ----- >> 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour >> before >> practice/game, so half of the team shows up; >> * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't >> exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most >> his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato >> ) >> >> The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when >> Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should >> happen. >> >> >> On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Herb Stahlke >>> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >>> column: >>> >>> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other >>> aspects >>> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >>> year. >>> >>> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >>> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >>> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number >>> drops >>> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >>> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >>> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >>> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >>> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:12:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:12:42 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010108.mAUBl86Y013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a question? -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who > cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me > greatly. > > There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something > else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a > request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor > and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or > that the question is of particular importance to the asker. > > What wording is preferred? BB > > On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: David Gignilliat >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by >> this . My >> mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts >> asking me >> about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly >> saying >> no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... >> >> alas >> >> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >>> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >>> Library, often, patrons would ask me >>> >>> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >>> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains >>> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a >>> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, >>> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >>> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has >>> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >>> that >>> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a >>> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether >>> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get >>> out of. >>> >>> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >>> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by >>> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >>> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act >>> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that >>> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >>> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >>> jollying me. >>> >>> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >>> is >>> bothered by this, but >>> >>> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >>> >>> -Wilson >>> >>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >>> to >>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>> ----- >>> -Mark Twain >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> David K. Gignilliat >> Woodbridge, VA >> 703-217-4380 >> http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 04:15:19 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:15:19 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010412.mAUBl8Gv023862@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see, thank you. I don't think I ask people if I can ask them a question but will try to remember that in the future :) On Nov 30, 2008, at 8:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > question? > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who >> cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me >> greatly. >> >> There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something >> else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a >> request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor >> and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or >> that the question is of particular importance to the asker. >> >> What wording is preferred? BB >> >> On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: David Gignilliat >>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by >>> this . My >>> mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts >>> asking me >>> about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly >>> saying >>> no, but (like you said) you're already past that point >>> technically ... >>> >>> alas >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >>>> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >>>> Library, often, patrons would ask me >>>> >>>> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> >>>> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have >>>> brains >>>> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you >>>> ask a >>>> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very >>>> act, >>>> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >>>> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question >>>> has >>>> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >>>> that >>>> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask >>>> him a >>>> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him >>>> whether >>>> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way >>>> get >>>> out of. >>>> >>>> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >>>> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question >>>> by >>>> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >>>> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very >>>> act >>>> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense >>>> that >>>> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >>>> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >>>> jollying me. >>>> >>>> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >>>> is >>>> bothered by this, but >>>> >>>> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >>>> >>>> -Wilson >>>> >>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >>>> to >>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>> ----- >>>> -Mark Twain >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 04:16:57 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:16:57 -0500 Subject: "gerrymander" again Message-ID: Having too late looked at the archives, I see Fred Shapiro introduced the March 27, 1812 Salem Gazette article, and John Baker pointed to the first appearance, in the Boston Gazette of March 26. (In addition to the cartoon, the BG has a long article, telling in somewhat different terms from the Salem Gazette the story of the naming, and the word "gerrymander" appears both in the title of the illustration and the text of the article.) At least the William Bentley quotation may be new! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:24:12 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:24:12 -0500 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812010402.mAUBl8Am013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree that it's not as strong a case for an eggcorn as I thought at first. Maybe a budding eggcorn? an oakcorn flower? But there's more here than a typo would account for. The fact that there is a cartoon, a TV comedy, and a piece of communications software with the name suggests more to the couch/coach variation than pure chance. Herb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If it's an eggcorn, wouldn't it be consistent rather than one in the > title and another in the text? Also, I don't know that the distant > position of "o" and "a" on the QWERTY board is necessarily telling. > Just guessing, it seems reasonable that "a" after "o" is easier than > "u" after "o" because it's an alternation of hands. > > Without looking at each one, I think www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 > is excellent evidence of "coach" being a typo. > > One other possibility is whether "couch" is a universal word. It is > the default in Seattle for a davenport/sofa, but I have the feeling > that "sofa" is more common in some regions, in which case the eggcorn > case would be stronger. BB > > On Nov 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Herb Stahlke >> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious >> plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at >> >> www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory >> >> where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the >> text. The same for >> >> astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html >> findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 >> www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- >> www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 >> www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 >> archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html >> >> It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo >> >> ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach- >> potato-style.html >> >> or these >> >> www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 >> mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato- >> you-decide.html >> www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html >> twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 >> www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ >> www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 >> talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html? >> forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 >> findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 >> adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html >> >> That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of >> "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, >> and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given >> the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip >> typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and >> I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other >> hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But >> there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. >> >> Herb >> >> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > > wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually >>> talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an >>> eggcorn. BB >>> >>> First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: >>> >>> ----- >>> YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >>> ) >>> >>> A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) >>> >>> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor >>> ----- >>> >>> There are also items that are clearly typos: >>> >>> ----- >>> 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers >>> were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression >>> "couch >>> potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms >>> the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 >>> ) >>> >>> What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly >>> evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the >>> archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm >>> ) >>> ----- >>> >>> There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: >>> >>> ----- >>> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... >>> >>> "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd >>> get >>> home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the >>> couch and watch TV.... >>> >>> "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a >>> significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin >>> gold-medallist Duff Gibson. >>> >>> (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 >>> ) >>> ----- >>> >>> Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a >>> typo: >>> >>> ----- >>> 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour >>> before >>> practice/game, so half of the team shows up; >>> * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't >>> exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most >>> his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato >>> ) >>> >>> The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when >>> Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should >>> happen. >>> >>> >>> On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke >>>> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >>>> column: >>>> >>>> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other >>>> aspects >>>> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >>>> year. >>>> >>>> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >>>> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >>>> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number >>>> drops >>>> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >>>> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >>>> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >>>> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >>>> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 04:38:01 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? Message-ID: 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of diminished effect." What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not photographic in 1818. (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was very impressive.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 06:17:56 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:17:56 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Nov 2008 to 26 Nov 2008 (#2008-331) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/2008 12:02:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Beyond the Pale: White House Hanukkah invite is actually Christmas card In one well-known West Wing Thanksgiving episode, Pres. Jed Bartlett pardoned a Turkey and granted asylum to a group of Chinese victims of religious persecution. But this week in the real west wing, besides barbecued turkey, two wars, and a financial meltdown, George W. Bush, another president whose series has been canceled, seemed intent on playing to his base one last time by making his legacy the long- awaited conversion of the Jews. At least that's what it seemed like to Jewish leaders who received invitations from the White Houseto this year's annual menorah lighting. On the inside of those Hanukkah invites, George and Laura Bush request "the pleasure of your company at a Hanukkah reception." But the outside of the card features a horse-drawn wagon carrying the White House Christmas tree up to a snow-clad White House, and to drive home the White Christmas message, a sign on the side of the wagon reads, "White House Christmas Tree 2008." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Do you really think George Bush chose the cards himself? I doubt he even saw them. People like him have people. Rosemarie I heard a good definition of humility in the face of compliments: "I believe that God uses others to reflect back to us who we are and how He is using us." **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 06:34:47 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:34:47 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-335) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/1/2008 12:00:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dunno if this helps, but in Central NY State, we often said - and indeed, still say - "down cellar" for going down into the cellar; and "down city" for going south to the city of Syracuse. My husband, who's from the west coast, laughs at me. But to my ear, these phrases sound perfectly normal! Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Dec 1 08:19:14 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:19:14 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: <200812010438.mAUBl8QY013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can > particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of > Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of > diminished effect." This is the kind of cite where some indication of the provenance would help to contextualize it. > What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I'd expect this to be hand-painted plates, and a portable camera obscura. > I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" > refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the > image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and > "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these > plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the > camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not > photographic in 1818. If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have been not uncommon during that period. > (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to > Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was > very impressive.) (The one in San Francisco, next to the Beach House, is also pretty cool.) Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 1 09:37:02 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:37:02 -0000 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris Waigl wrote: > If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by > about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have > been not uncommon during that period. Fox Talbot used a portable camera obscura for his early experiments in photography. His device is still on view, I believe, in the museum at Lacock in Wiltshire. (I remember it well, as I used it as a prop while making an audio-visual programme about him for the opening of the museum.) -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Dec 1 10:44:30 2008 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:44:30 +0000 Subject: Preposition deletion Message-ID: Using 'down' and 'up' without 'to' is allowable in British English in certain contexts--whether there's a rule to this I'm not sure. But one goes 'down the pub' . One also goes 'round' places, such as 'going round Mary's house'--whereas in AmE I think I'd have say 'going around to M's house'--but maybe I've just lost all of my intuitions. Here's a bloggy example with up: Tonight, I'm going up London Town to see my lovely Big Fella; (dearwitho.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_archive.html) We have a final-year student who's just embarking on his dissertation project on the loss of 'to' after 'go' in some contexts, e.g. "I'm going the pub". My initial impression was that the contexts in which it happens tend to be ones in which the destination is more than a physical destination--it's an activity. But we'll see what turns up when he's researched it more properly. Lynne --On 30 November 2008 15:19 -0500 Wilson Gray wrote: > "Let's go _down the basement_ is the standard usage here in the Boston > area. > > In Saint Louis, another place where houses usually have basements, we > said"... _down in the basement_." I've also heard "... _down cellar." > > The usual OT anecdote. > > I once lived in Arlington Hills, MA, an area in which the surface is > underlaid (or underlain?) by granite. Whoever built the house that I > lived in must have felt that the lot was good enough for government > work as it was, since, if you went down the basement, you found a > granite knoll (or knob?), ca. six feet high and twenty feet in > diameter, obviously the apex of one of the original hills, right in > the middle of what was otherwise an entirely ordinary basement. The > house had simply been built around and over the knoll? / knob?. Weird! > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Grant Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> >> Subject: Preposition deletion >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------- >> >> The sentences below come from a listener to the radio show, who says >> she remembers them from her family in the 1950s. >> >> "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park >> >> "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement >> >> I believe I've read something about this sort of preposition deletion >> in the last few years, but I can't get enough purchase on the key >> elements of it to get fruitful results online or in my library. >> >> Any ideas as to whether this is a common dialect feature and if it's >> been discussed elsewhere? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> 113 Park Place, No. 3 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 11:34:03 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011044.mB16G2fK013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Lynne Murphy > Subject: Re: Preposition deletion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using 'down' and 'up' without 'to' is allowable in British English in > certain contexts--whether there's a rule to this I'm not sure. But one > goes 'down the pub' . One also goes 'round' places, such as 'going round > Mary's house'--whereas in AmE I think I'd have say 'going around to M's > house'--but maybe I've just lost all of my intuitions. > > Here's a bloggy example with up: > Tonight, I'm going up London Town to see my lovely Big Fella; > (dearwitho.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_archive.html) > > We have a final-year student who's just embarking on his dissertation > project on the loss of 'to' after 'go' in some contexts, e.g. "I'm going > the pub". My initial impression was that the contexts in which it happens > tend to be ones in which the destination is more than a physical > destination--it's an activity. But we'll see what turns up when he's > researched it more properly. > > Lynne > I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my pub"? -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 12:43:37 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:43:37 +0800 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011237.mB1BlJEv002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Waigl > Subject: Re: Preposition deletion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800, Randy Alexander > wrote: > >> I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. >> >> If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my >> pub"? > > Well, you still need "down". I find a few hits for "go(ing) down my pub", > including from some song lyrics. I'd consider it colloquial. > > Cheers, > > Chris > I chose those words to avoid neighboring alveolar consonants, "go __ my pub", where __ = a lack of "to". My idea is that "to" might disappear with an alveolar consonant on either side, but not between two non-alveolar sounds. -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Dec 1 12:37:53 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:37:53 -0500 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011134.mB16G2l4013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800, Randy Alexander wrote: > I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. > > If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my > pub"? Well, you still need "down". I find a few hits for "go(ing) down my pub", including from some song lyrics. I'd consider it colloquial. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 14:06:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 06:06:51 -0800 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812010135.mAUBl8EA013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Marc Velasco > Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV > shows or > characters, used as verbs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > if anyone's still tracking this... > tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ > someone, > ie, to interrogate/torture for information. > > >>> >>> A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >>> were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take >>> back >>> to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >>> >>> "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen >>> Mary." ... >>> >>> ... But are there other television shows or television characters >>> which >>> have become verbs? >>> >>> --- who is the source of the embedded "A sentence one of my fellow bartenders ..." material that's quoted here? i can't find it in the archives. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 15:22:32 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:22:32 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Chris and Michael Quinion. I had not imagined portable camera obscura (I won't attempt a plural!), since the only two I remember were installed in their own private tower rooms. (And I now do remember the San Francisco one, which I visited many years ago.) The source is _The diary of William Bentley, D.D., pastor of the East Church, Salem, Massachusetts_. And yes, I knew that 1818 was a decade or so too early for a photographic camera. Joel At 12/1/2008 03:19 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" >wrote: > > > 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can > > particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of > > Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of > > diminished effect." > >This is the kind of cite where some indication of the provenance would help >to contextualize it. > > > What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? > >I'd expect this to be hand-painted plates, and a portable camera obscura. > > > I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" > > refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the > > image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and > > "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these > > plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the > > camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not > > photographic in 1818. > >If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by >about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have >been not uncommon during that period. > > > (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to > > Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was > > very impressive.) > >(The one in San Francisco, next to the Beach House, is also pretty cool.) > >Chris Waigl > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Mon Dec 1 17:22:26 2008 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:22:26 -0600 Subject: Pass=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= Comitatus Act Message-ID: Just seen on the Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com): PENTAGON TO DEPLOY 20,000 TROOPS INSIDE USA... Domestic Security... Passé Comitatus Act... -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com Mirror Journal http://dsgood.insanejournal.com Mirror 2 http://dsgood.wordpress.com Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 17:28:03 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:28:03 -0500 Subject: Pass=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= Comitatus Act In-Reply-To: <49341D52.8060009@iphouse.com> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 12:22 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: >Just seen on the Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com): > >PENTAGON TO DEPLOY 20,000 TROOPS INSIDE USA... >Domestic Security... >Passé Comitatus Act... We can only hope it will be, with the new administration. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 1 17:28:34 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:28:34 -0600 Subject: "don" = to wear; (hence) to bear on the exterior. (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200811272232.mARBm8Xx014641@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Back in the day, there was a comic-book character named > "Merton McSnurtle the Turtle." He had the ability to remove > his shell at will. > When he removed his shell, he became the super-hero, "Mr. > Terrific Whatzit," a swift-moving character that was > essentially a parody of The Flash. As superheroes go, this pales in comparison to "Ear Fall Off Floyd", who could make his ears fall off at will. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 17:36:44 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:36:44 -0800 Subject: "long from" for "far from" In-Reply-To: <200811302101.mAUBl80c013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "long from" for "far from" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 2:39 PM -0600 11/30/08, Gerald Cohen wrote: >> "long from" seems to be a shortening of "a long way from" (as in >> "it's a >> long way from being over"). And this shortening may have originally >> occurred under the influence of blending: >> "it's far from over" + "it's a long way from being over.' >> >> G. Cohen > > Perhaps "long way to go" is a factor as well, given that it fits the > "long from" examples that work and not the ones that Arnold indicates > are unattested. i was about to suggest "a long way from" as a contributor to this usage (and perhaps "a long way to go" as well), and i think there's something right about that idea, but there's still something to explain: these "long way" expressions are usable for both spatial and (sometimes) temporal extent (and for metaphorical uses based on the spatial sense), but as Alison Murie has noted, "long from" is specifically temporal. this shows up very clearly in questions of the form "how long from here to X"; if you google on this expression, almost all the hits are about distance in time rather than space, as here: How long from here to there? Find out the time it takes to travel by Metro Rail from any metro stop to another. www.nationalrealty.biz/map/metro.htm when spatial distance is clearly intended, "long from" is odd indeed: ?? Chicago is long from San Francisco. [ok with "far"] ?? How long is your house from your office? [ok with "far"]' (cf.: How long is this project from being finished? 'How much time until this project is finished?') so it seems that "long from" is not a simple variant of "far from", but is 'far from' in time -- another case of the "Y is X plus something" phenomenon i've been looking at for some time. another difference: although "long from" is compatible with the interrogative degree modifier "how", other degree modifiers don't seem to work: "very far from over" is fine, but "very long from over" gets no relevant hits. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:36:22 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200811292224.mATC2raf007269@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Uhh... no, and I apologize for the mistake. I meant only Fri. the 13th as unlucky. Mark Mandel On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > Mark, are you saying that you yourself remember that in the > 1950s it was already claimed that Friday the 13th was supposed to be > unlucky because of the Knights Templar incident? That's much earlier > than I would have guessed. > > > John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:44:26 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! In-Reply-To: <200812010328.mAUBl8je013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations > contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: > "This is where we need > to give the devil his do. " > (Just faintly reminiscent of Papa Bush being coy.) > AM Sounds painful for the barber! "I bet Old Nick just looked at her, and scratched his scorching hair" (http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/SpottedGoat.html) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:55:55 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:55:55 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010412.mAUBl8OE013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > question? I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and not necessarily true. "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your permission." Don't take it literally. I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our childhood, and we'd better get with it. Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:06:40 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:06:40 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812011406.mB1BlJOl002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who is a part-time professional bartender. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Marc Velasco >> Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV >> shows or >> characters, used as verbs >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> if anyone's still tracking this... >> tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ >> someone, >> ie, to interrogate/torture for information. >> >> >>>> >>>> A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >>>> were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take >>>> back >>>> to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >>>> >>>> "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen >>>> Mary." ... >>>> >>>> ... But are there other television shows or television characters >>>> which >>>> have become verbs? >>>> >>>> --- > > who is the source of the embedded "A sentence one of my fellow > bartenders ..." material that's quoted here? i can't find it in the > archives. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:03:56 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:03:56 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-335) In-Reply-To: <200812010634.mB16G2Ye013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think it's fairly common in the British Isles. In the song "Archetype Cafe", by the English singer-songwriter Talis Kimberly, the refrain is "And the Ladies' Historic Society meets down Archetype Cafe at midnight", and I've heard/read it in other eastpondian sources. Googling "down the corner" gives mostly hits for an art film from Ireland (and "paint down the corner", etc.) Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Your Name wrote: > In a message dated 12/1/2008 12:00:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park > > "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dunno if this helps, but in Central NY State, we often said - and indeed, > still say - "down cellar" for going down into the cellar; and "down city" for > going south to the city of Syracuse. > > > > > My husband, who's from the west coast, laughs at me. But to my ear, these > phrases sound perfectly normal! > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Dec 1 18:33:40 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:33:40 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" Message-ID: Another formula occurs when a diner is ordering from the menu at a restaurant: "May I have . . . ?" Or (as both my son and his wife will commence an order) "Can I get . . .?" Also not to be taken literally, of course. (An ORDER is not a request!) --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 18:00:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:00:17 -0800 Subject: "little/few but" (was: "long from" for "far from") In-Reply-To: <200811300251.mATC2rPJ019256@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:51 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > "few but" sounds strange, but couldn't "little but" be taken as a > down-toned universal? i have trouble with "few but/except" but find "little but/except" fine in at least some cases: They did little but/except dither. not that i know what to make of this. for what it's worth, exceptive "other than" works fine for me in places where "but" and "except" do not: Few other than his fellow poets understand his work. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:56:43 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:56:43 -0600 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200812011739.mB1BqSRw006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For some cultures, it is Tuesday the 13th! Or it was when I was in Paraguay at the end of the 70s--and I never knew why. And then there is Churchy (Cherchez Lafemme) of Pogo fame for whom the 13th day was unlucky, no matter what day it fell on (this month, Friday the 13th will fall on a Saturday!). Barbara Barbara Need On 12/1/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Friday the 13th and the Templars > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Uhh... no, and I apologize for the mistake. I meant only Fri. the 13th > as unlucky. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > > > Mark, are you saying that you yourself remember that in the > > 1950s it was already claimed that Friday the 13th was supposed to be > > unlucky because of the Knights Templar incident? That's much earlier > > than I would have guessed. > > > > > > John Baker > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 19:04:03 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:04:03 -0800 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200812011856.mB1BqSag006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I never read it myself, but I thought *Friday* the thirteenth was lucky for him...BB On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:56 AM, Barbara Need wrote: > And then there is Churchy (Cherchez Lafemme) of Pogo fame for whom > the 13th > day was unlucky, no matter what day it fell on (this month, Friday > the 13th > will fall on a Saturday!). > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Mon Dec 1 19:42:42 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:42:42 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812011756.mB1BpTsQ003181@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > permission." Don't take it literally. Exactly. It's more likely to mean "is this a good time/are you the right person" to ask. > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > childhood, and we'd better get with it. I think Miss Manners would approve. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 19:59:07 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:59:07 -0500 Subject: Webster=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= New World College Dictionary announces its word-of-the-year candidates In-Reply-To: <200811211546.mALBklU2025684@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The least odd choice, "overshare", has won. http://newworldword.com/ On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > > Webster's New World College Dictionary has announced its top five > words of the year candidates. Odd choices from WNW, as usual. > > http://tinyurl.com/69zku8 > > leisure sickness: a purported syndrome, not universally recognized by > psychologists, by which some people (typically characterized as > workaholics) are more likely to report feeling ill during weekends and > vacations than when working. > > overshare: to divulge excessive personal information, as in a blog or > broadcast interview, prompting reactions ranging from alarmed > discomfort to approval > > cyberchondriac: a hypochondriac who imagines that he or she has a > particular disease based on medical information gleaned from the > Internet > > selective ignorance: the practice of selectively ignoring distracting, > irrelevant, or otherwise unnecessary information received, such as e- > mails, news reports, etc. > > youthanasia: "…The controversial practice of performing a battery of > age-defying medical procedures to end lifeless skin and wrinkles; > advocated by some as a last-resort measure to put the chronically > youth-obsessed out of their misery…Think of it as mercy lifting." – > Armand Limnander, New York Times > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 1 20:22:05 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:22:05 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" Message-ID: I sometimes need to do telemarketing -- cold-calling prospects in an attempt to get an appointment. I've done this for various companies. One had a trainer who strongly encouraged using a 'how are you' type question when a prospect first got on the phone. I disagreed with that concept, in part because the caller would know that I know they know I'm not truly concerned with how they are; and anyway, seconds spent on such pointless exchanges of not-even-pleasant comments would be time needlessly taken from the prospect's busy day, and _that_ would be good for the prospect or for me. Unless I'm mistaken, the French do conversation-initiation so much nicer in most instances, with a simple 'bon jour'. dh 12/1/2008 12:55:55 PM Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >When a co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >not necessarily true. >Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 1 20:28:04 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:28:04 -0500 Subject: Broken News Message-ID: Subject: News Alert: It's Official: U.S. Economy in Recession Breaking News Alert The New York Times Monday, December 1, 2008 -- 12:32 PM ET ----- It's Official: U.S. Economy in Recession The National Bureau of Economic Research, a panel of academic economists charged with the official designation of business cycles, said that the United States economy has been in recession since December 2007, when economic activity peaked. -- All the news that's fit to print . . . eventually. dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 20:51:31 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:51:31 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <001B48500C010F16051A001002@Seamus> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 03:22 PM, Doug Harris wrote: >Unless I'm mistaken, the French do conversation-initiation so much >nicer in most instances, with a simple 'bon jour' We could to that too -- a greeting of "Good day." Not to be confused with the farewell "Have a nice day." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:07:39 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:07:39 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812011756.mB1BqST8006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire to annoy me!" But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they will: A) May I ask you a question? B) No. A) All right. Fuck you, then. AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask this question in this form in any human language without eliminating the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no question? And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >> question? > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > not necessarily true. > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > permission." Don't take it literally. > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:11:45 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:11:45 EST Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" Message-ID: I just heard a radio DJ say, "Dec. 1 ushers in for me two things: the consumption of eggnog, and the listening-to of Christmas music." I'm trying to figure out if that last phrase is grammatically correct? And if so, am I correct in hyphenating "listening-to" in this context? Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:20:13 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:20:13 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012107.mB1HHhxx002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. > Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no > question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical > possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right > to answer "No"? Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" > Asking permission to perform this action entails > performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to > wants to grant permission. Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? > I find that mind-bending! If someone were to > ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question > you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, > "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your > ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire > to annoy me!" > > But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) > this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but > more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real > world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they > will: > > A) May I ask you a question? > > B) No. > > A) All right. Fuck you, then. > > AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so > trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" > Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take > some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask > this question in this form in any human language without eliminating > the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no > question? > > And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" > with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I > guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending > toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. Mark > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > >> question? > > > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > > not necessarily true. > > > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > > permission." Don't take it literally. > > > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > > > Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:25:37 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:25:37 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812011006p49567dc2y39118a9449bf60e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who > is a part-time professional bartender. Here's the complete post from my files: =========================================== date Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM subject Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs mailed-by gmail.com ----------- >From a friend's LiveJournal (http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html), used by permission: >>>>> Oh how cool English is as a language A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, which keeps everything from falling off. But are there other television shows or television characters which have become verbs? ----- http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html?thread=4492747#t4492747 mattblum comments: Did you know that "to MacGyver" was used on the first episode of Stargate SG-1 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118480/), prompting Richard Dean Anderson (or his character--hard to say which) to roll his eyes in exasperation? ----- http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html?thread=4493003#t4493003 janetmiles comments: Spock, as in "to Spock an eyebrow". <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:32:48 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:32:48 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812012111.mB1HHh13002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, such strings are easily generated and easily understood. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Your Name wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I just heard a radio DJ say, "Dec. 1 ushers in for me two things: the > consumption of eggnog, and the listening-to of Christmas music." I'm trying to > figure out if that last phrase is grammatically correct? And if so, am I > correct in hyphenating "listening-to" in this context? > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW > AOL.com. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Mon Dec 1 22:59:25 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:59:25 -0800 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 Zulu minus 0500 "Joel S. Berson" wrote: 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of diminished effect." What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not photographic in 1818. (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was very impressive.) Joel ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My response: I see the quotation as referring to three different parts of the exhibit: 1. camera 2. view of Rome 3. other plates With this interpretation "plates" has no connection to "camera". Apparently the artist used a camera obscura for tracing, and was meticulous (or honest?) enought to so state. Then "colourings" refers to camera obscura tracings that the artist subsequently colored. What bothers me is the word "refuse". OT: "May I ask you a question?" is an example of a convention in English in which a statement or request is made politely by being indirect. Somebody has probably come up with a name for this convention. A similar convention was covered in ADS-L a few months ago when someone tried to interpret "I wish to thank..." literally, not realizing that "I wish to thank" is a conventional phrase implying modesty and respect on the part of the speaker. OT: if you're puzzled about my signoffs, here's a hint: don't think engineering but rather Confederate currency. James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ RTSDP TVJMS QHZNY YZUWT BASDV AYIFF WOMEG OGOOG WAEHJ CJUYT MOWEN SPPMX PHZLG YXZNG AAESK YYQUK YDG ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Mon Dec 1 23:02:41 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:02:41 -0800 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? Message-ID: Not really relevant, but back in the late 1970's I heard the following story, about a professor in the Soviet Union who taught English stylistics. She was complaining that Soviet restrictions kept her from reading and hearing real English, with the result "I thought the English word for davenport was pronounced like the trainer of a baseball team." James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ RAVPA SPPMZ GS ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 23:17:44 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:17:44 -0800 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812012125.mB1HHh3r002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV > shows or > characters, used as verbs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who >> is a part-time professional bartender. > > > > Here's the complete post from my files: > > =========================================== > > date Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM > subject Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or > characters, used as verbs > mailed-by gmail.com wow. no wonder i didn't recall it, if it was from june. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 23:39:56 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:39:56 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012120.mB1Bu5dK003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:59 PM, James A. Landau wrote (in another thread): > > OT: "May I ask you a question?" is an example of a convention in English in > which a statement or request is made politely by being indirect. Somebody > has probably come up with a name for this convention. A similar convention > was covered in ADS-L a few months ago when someone tried to interpret "I wish > to thank..." literally, not realizing that "I wish to thank" is a conventional > phrase implying modesty and respect on the part of the speaker. There's extensive sociolinguistic literature on indirect requests. One relevant paper is: Ervin-Tripp, Susan. 1976. Is Sybil there? The structure of some American English directives. Language in Society 5: 25-66. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 01:35:06 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:35:06 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812011320i556ebd8eg5b1a5bc9050bda52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no > > question? > > Along the same lines, consider the possible answers to "Are you awake?" >Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- >meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't >feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). > >But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not >meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can >you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the >door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing >so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. Then there's the issue of responding "Do you mind if I...?" to which a polite "Sure" will (hopefully) be interpreted as "Go right ahead" rather than as a "Yes, I sure do mind". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 2 02:36:53 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:36:53 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812011307u38e21c71k117e19495e9b0fe6@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 04:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >to answer "No"? Are you alive? Are you awake? Joel >Asking permission to perform this action entails >performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >to annoy me!" > >But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >will: > >A) May I ask you a question? > >B) No. > >A) All right. Fuck you, then. > >AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >question? > >And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) > >-Wilson > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > > > >On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > >> question? > > > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > > not necessarily true. > > > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > > permission." Don't take it literally. > > > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > > > Mark Mandel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 2 04:51:47 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:51:47 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012120.mB1Bu5dM003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mark, may I ask you a question? Can you not see that, when I ask you for permission to ask you a question, whether you would choose to allow me to ask you a question or whether you would choose not to allow me to ask you a question is of no consequence? I have already asked you a question by virtue of the very speech act of asking you for permission to ask you ask you a question. It's already too late. The war is over before you've even had a chance to "LOCK! One round, LOAD!" Game, set, and match to the questioner. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >> Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >> question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >> possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >> to answer "No"? > > Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" > >> Asking permission to perform this action entails >> performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >> wants to grant permission. > > Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? > >> I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >> ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >> you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >> "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >> ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >> to annoy me!" >> >> But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >> this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >> more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >> world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >> will: >> >> A) May I ask you a question? >> >> B) No. >> >> A) All right. Fuck you, then. >> >> AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >> question? >> >> And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >> with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >> guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >> toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) > > Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- > meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't > feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). > > But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not > meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can > you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the > door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing > so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. > > Mark > >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Mark Mandel >> > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >> >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >> >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >> >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >> >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >> >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >> >> question? >> > >> > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >> > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >> > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you >> > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a >> > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >> > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >> > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >> > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >> > not necessarily true. >> > >> > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like >> > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your >> > permission." Don't take it literally. >> > >> > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a >> > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what >> > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a >> > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >> > childhood, and we'd better get with it. >> > >> > Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 2 05:24:02 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:24:02 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020451.mB24bcE1002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The other possibility, and the one that seems most reasonable in the case of asking a librarian, is that the speaker is not sure if the librarian's duties at the moment allow the answering of something that requires thought. That is, Patron. Can I ask you a question? Librarian. Yes. (Requires no thought.) Patron. Do you know where I can find information on simian habitats? Librarian. Let me move over to my computer and see if I can help you. (Requires a great deal of effort.) BB On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mark, may I ask you a question? > > Can you not see that, when I ask you for permission to ask you a > question, whether you would choose to allow me to ask you a question > or whether you would choose not to allow me to ask you a question is > of no consequence? I have already asked you a question by virtue of > the very speech act of asking you for permission to ask you ask you a > question. It's already too late. The war is over before you've even > had a chance to "LOCK! One round, LOAD!" Game, set, and match to the > questioner. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >>> Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >>> question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the >>> theoretical >>> possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given >>> right >>> to answer "No"? >> >> Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" >> >>> Asking permission to perform this action entails >>> performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >>> wants to grant permission. >> >> Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? >> >>> I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >>> ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >>> you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >>> "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >>> ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your >>> desire >>> to annoy me!" >>> >>> But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of >>> (only?) >>> this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger >>> but >>> more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the >>> real >>> world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as >>> they >>> will: >>> >>> A) May I ask you a question? >>> >>> B) No. >>> >>> A) All right. Fuck you, then. >>> >>> AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >>> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >>> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >>> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >>> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >>> question? >>> >>> And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >>> with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! >>> Well, I >>> guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >>> toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) >> >> Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- >> meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't >> feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). >> >> But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not >> meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can >> you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at >> the >> door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing >> so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. >> >> Mark >> >>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray >>>> wrote: >>>>> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you >>>>> familiar >>>>> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >>>>> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know >>>>> whether >>>>> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >>>>> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other >>>>> than >>>>> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >>>>> question? >>>> >>>> I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >>>> unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >>>> formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice >>>> that you >>>> are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. >>>> When a >>>> co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the >>>> morning >>>> as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >>>> you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be >>>> worse" >>>> or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, >>>> and >>>> not necessarily true. >>>> >>>> "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd >>>> like >>>> to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking >>>> your >>>> permission." Don't take it literally. >>>> >>>> I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that >>>> made a >>>> road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is >>>> what >>>> conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just >>>> being a >>>> literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >>>> childhood, and we'd better get with it. >>>> >>>> Mark Mandel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 2 05:49:20 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:49:20 -0500 Subject: Japanese WOTY In-Reply-To: <200812010417.mAUBl8lY013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the current news: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20081201-00000016-oric-ent Top fashionable Japanese words for 2008 (winner and runner-up) (if I'm reading this right): "arafou" and "guu" (my transliteration preferences). "Arafou" means "40-ish". It is an abbreviation of "araundo foutii" = "around forty". The actress Amami Yuuki [left] is indeed 40-ish, and she starred in the TV series "Around 40" recently. http://www.tbs.co.jp/around40/ [I guess with the aging of the population, you could say arafou is 'the new arasaa' (araundo-saatii = around-30)?] "Guu" means (among other things) "good". Apparently the (40-ish) comedienne Edo Harumi [right, making the thumbs-up for "good", I guess] makes jokes/puns with "guu" (versus the word-ending "-ingu" [= English "-ing"], if I'm understanding right). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGiQQ5EmgGo (in the last half, there are "chaaminguu" = "charming", "dansinguu" = "dancing", "anatawaguu" = "you are good", etc., to my naive ear). Any savant, please correct my misconceptions if necessary. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From katharinethegrate at COMCAST.NET Tue Dec 2 06:44:14 2008 From: katharinethegrate at COMCAST.NET (Katharine The Grate) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:44:14 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020534.mB1M8GQ2003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. Katharine in N. California $�$$�$$�$$�$$�$$ "(testing) just can�t dominate the curriculum to an extent where we are pushing aside those things that will actually allow children to improve and accurately assess the quality of the teaching that is taking place in the classroom.� B.Obama ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:11:21 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:11:21 -0500 Subject: Further Major Antedating of "Linguistic" Message-ID: linguistic (OED 1856) 1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE science of the general comparison of languages, now developing itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. ... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. linguistic science (OED 1922) 1825 [see above] Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:11:29 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:11:29 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" Message-ID: photographer (OED3 1846) 1844 _John Bull_ 23 Mar. (19th Century UK Periodicals) PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. ... Topham and Prichard, Leeds, photographers. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:07:06 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Nathan) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:07:06 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <30895195.55911228216015944.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: Wilson wrote: All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire to annoy me!" Many years ago I heard the late Harvey Sacks talk about why small kids say 'Mommy, you know what?' Superficially this makes no sense, and why would a 4-year-old ask such a question anyway. In the ponderous but really clever way that Conversational Analysts deconstruct conversational turn-taking he pointed out that generally kids don't get to 'run' conversations, or in general have the right to 'the floor'. However, asking a question, by virtue of the structure of what Schegloff, Sacks and Jefferson called 'adjacency pairs' gave the child the automatic right to talk. Anybody can ask a question, but not just any low status person can start talking without invitation. So asking an open-ended question gives you the floor and begins a conversation, while just beginning with the actual question would seem rude and presumptive, meaning something along the lines of 'You're my servant and you must tell me this'. FWIW. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:22:00 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:22:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" Message-ID: conservatism (OED 1835) 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 2 12:09:28 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:09:28 -0500 Subject: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C914@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Isn't the 1856 date for the adjective? The noun (The science of languages; philology. a. sing) dates from 1837. Antedating for linguistic (adj). OED 1856-. Weekly Eagle, published as The Semi-Weekly Eagle; Date: 04-02-1849; Volume: II; Issue: 68; Page: [2]; Location: Brattleboro, Vermont [EAN]. This linguistic entertainment soon grew irksome to the impatient Spaniard, and the conference speedily terminated. Joel At 12/2/2008 06:11 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE >science of the general comparison of languages, now developing >itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, >made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials >have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the >diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a >Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself >more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. >... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition >to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. > > >linguistic science (OED 1922) > >1825 [see above] > > >Fred Shapiro > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 14:17:55 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:17:55 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <2314495.55931228216026924.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 6:07 AM -0500 12/2/08, Geoffrey Nathan wrote: >Wilson wrote: > >All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails >performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >to annoy me!" > >Many years ago I heard the late Harvey Sacks talk about why small >kids say 'Mommy, you know what?' Superficially this makes no sense, >and why would a 4-year-old ask such a question anyway. In the >ponderous but really clever way that Conversational Analysts >deconstruct conversational turn-taking he pointed out that generally >kids don't get to 'run' conversations, or in general have the right >to 'the floor'. However, asking a question, by virtue of the >structure of what Schegloff, Sacks and Jefferson called 'adjacency >pairs' gave the child the automatic right to talk. Anybody can ask a >question, but not just any low status person can start talking >without invitation. So asking an open-ended question gives you the >floor and begins a conversation, while just beginning with the >actual question would seem rude and presumptive, meaning something >along the lines of 'You're my servant and you must tell me this'. >FWIW. > All true & to the point, and when we grow up, we can change it to "Guess what". There's a thread in the sociolinguistics of gender (starting with Pamela Fishman's work in the early 1980s) that looks at the greater likelihood that female rather than male partners in couples will use questions and particularly floor-obtaining questions of exactly this type to make sure they're listened to, and the comparison with the data from children is explicitly made. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 14:23:13 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:23:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C916@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:22:00AM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > conservatism (OED 1835) > > 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. > 1832 _Manchester Times & Gaz._ 8 Sept., That leaven of resistance to beneficial change which at different periods has been denominated jacobitism, toryism, and conservatism. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Dec 2 15:16:27 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:16:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: <20081202142313.GF15773@panix.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:22:00AM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> conservatism (OED 1835) >> >> 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY >> OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we >> get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a >> principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. >> > > 1832 _Manchester Times & Gaz._ 8 Sept., That leaven of > resistance to beneficial change which at different periods has > been denominated jacobitism, toryism, and conservatism. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED A discourse delivered in the audience of His Excellency Caleb Strong, esq., governor, His Honor William Phillips, esq., lieutentant governor, the honorable Council, and the two branches of the commonwealth of Massachusetts. On the anniversary election, May 31, 1815. James Flint 1815 English Book Book 31 p. 24 cm. Boston, Printed by Russell, Cutler and Co. for Benjamin Russell, Printer to the State page 16 By conservatism, I understand protection from corruption, diminution, injury, and needless exposure to danger ; the system, whether in morals or politics, or any thing else, which will not hazard present certain and great good for future and very uncertain good, which may, by possibility, be greater; in a word... etc.: http://books.google.com/books?id=zH0XAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA16&dq=conservatism+date:1800-1815&lr=&as_brr=1 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 2 15:25:14 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:25:14 -0500 Subject: Webster=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= New World College Dictionary announces its word-of-the-year candidates In-Reply-To: <200812012009.mB1BqSko006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > The least odd choice, "overshare", has won. > > http://newworldword.com/ I talk about "overshare"/"oversharing" in my latest Word Routes column: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1622/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 16:48:22 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:48:22 -0500 Subject: "call someone out of their name" In-Reply-To: <916674.55274.qm@web53901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:57:18AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > If it's in the OED or the Archives, I couldn't find it. It's in OED s.v. _call_ v. sense 17.e., though many of Doug's cites are antedatings, and the OED definition doesn't convey the 'insult' nuance, which is clearly present even in the OED quotations. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 2 16:49:49 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:49:49 -0600 Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812021115.mB220FHk006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE [untitled classified ad] _The New York Herald_ Monday, March 06, 1843; p 3 Col 4. "Caution -- The vast superiority of the Patent Colored Photographs, having thrown the old kind entirely into the shade, several of the Photographers in New York are attempting to impose upon the public by advertising their productions as "patent," whereas the only patent ever granted by the United States for an improvement in Daguerrotype Portraits, is "Plumbe's," -- dated October 22, 1842 -- and the only place in New York where the patent one can be obtained, is the above establishment." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > photographer (OED3 1846) > > 1844 _John Bull_ 23 Mar. (19th Century UK Periodicals) > PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. ... Topham and Prichard, Leeds, photographers. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School > ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 2 21:22:58 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:22:58 -0500 Subject: aborigine / aubergine Message-ID: (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=870) >And the relationship between its spelling and its pronunciation is exceptional, in that it has final E representing /i/ (rather than being "silent"), a property it shares with a small number of other words, among them epitome, catastrophe, hyperbole, apocope, synecdoche, calliope. And what may be the most widely familiar one: apostrophe. Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 2 22:54:24 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:54:24 -0600 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812022123.mB2KBJZg018810@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not list "bearded clam" "John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 p. 2 col 5 "Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 23:50:58 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 18:50:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cocaine" Message-ID: cocaine (OED 1874) 1861 _Madras Journal of Literarature and Science_ 1 Dec. 271 (19th Century UK Periodicals) A chemical analysis gives an alkaloid, "Cocaine,"" which bears a strong resemblance to Aconite, the active principle of Bella donna, and like it, has the property of dilating the pupil of the eye. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:22:08 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:22:08 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020644.mB25U0Es003181@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! THANK GOD!!! FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katharine The Grate > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" > > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. > > Katharine in N. California > > > > > $Þ$$¡$$� $$� $$ß$$ > "(testing) just canÕt dominate the curriculum to an extent where we > are pushing aside those things that will actually allow children to > improve and accurately assess the quality of the teaching that is > taking place in the classroom.Ó > B.Obama > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:23:24 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 03:23:24 +0000 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020237.mB1M8GIi003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: can you come up with any other yes-no >>question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >>possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >>to answer "No"? How about "Can you say no to this question?" - theoretically Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:36:53 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/1/2008 04:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Content-Disposition: inline >> >>All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >>Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >>question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >>possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >>to answer "No"? > > Are you alive? > Are you awake? > > Joel > >>Asking permission to perform this action entails >>performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >>wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >>ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >>you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >>"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >>ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >>to annoy me!" >> >>But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >>this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >>more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >>world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >>will: >> >>A) May I ask you a question? >> >>B) No. >> >>A) All right. Fuck you, then. >> >>AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >>trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >>some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >>this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >>the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >>question? >> >>And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >>with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >>guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >>toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Mark Twain >> >> >> >>On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >>>> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >>>> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >>>> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >>>> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >>>> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >>>> question? >>> >>> I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >>> unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >>> formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you >>> are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a >>> co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >>> as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >>> you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >>> or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >>> not necessarily true. >>> >>> "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like >>> to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your >>> permission." Don't take it literally. >>> >>> I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a >>> road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what >>> conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a >>> literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >>> childhood, and we'd better get with it. >>> >>> Mark Mandel >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 03:54:05 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:54:05 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED082@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. Joel P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an 18th-century newspaper. JSB At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >list "bearded clam" > >"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >p. 2 col 5 > >"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." > >http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 3 04:08:04 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:08:04 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" Message-ID: Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact > when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > Joel > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > 18th-century newspaper. > > JSB > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>Caveats: NONE >> >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>list "bearded clam" >> >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>p. 2 col 5 >> >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >> >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>Caveats: NONE >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 04:16:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:16:06 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" In-Reply-To: <49B6A42503684E07967868353CBBBA99@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 12/2/2008 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: >Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the >internet the last 5 years or so? No. But apparently you don't recognize (my) satire when you read it! :-) Joel >Sam Clements >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joel S. Berson" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 >Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > >>This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America >>until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact >>when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from >>1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. >> >>And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, >>1783" -- that's all the masthead says. >> >>Joel >> >>P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, >>selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors >>of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an >>18th-century newspaper. >> >>JSB >> >> >>At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>Caveats: NONE >>> >>>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>>list "bearded clam" >>> >>>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>>p. 2 col 5 >>> >>>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >>> >>>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>Caveats: NONE >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 3 04:19:59 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:19:59 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" Message-ID: You're right. I read the first part, missed the latter. Sorry. Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 23:16 Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > At 12/2/2008 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: >>Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the >>internet the last 5 years or so? > > No. But apparently you don't recognize (my) satire when you read it! :-) > > Joel > > >>Sam Clements >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Joel S. Berson" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 >>Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" >> >> >>>This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America >>>until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact >>>when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from >>>1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. >>> >>>And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, >>>1783" -- that's all the masthead says. >>> >>>Joel >>> >>>P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, >>>selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors >>>of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an >>>18th-century newspaper. >>> >>>JSB >>> >>> >>>At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>Caveats: NONE >>>> >>>>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>>>list "bearded clam" >>>> >>>>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>>>p. 2 col 5 >>>> >>>>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>>>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>>>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>>>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>>>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>>>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >>>> >>>>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>Caveats: NONE >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Dec 3 13:26:52 2008 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:26:52 -0600 Subject: good morning Message-ID: Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind changes down to 30 tonight! If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. Have a good breakfast. -- Save the whales... collect the whole set! Win valuable prizes . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Dec 3 13:50:20 2008 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:50:20 -0600 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <4936891C.8000006@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: sorry! Paul wrote: > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > changes down to 30 tonight! > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > Have a good breakfast. > > -- > Save the whales... > collect the whole set! > Win valuable prizes > > > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > -- Save the whales... collect the whole set! Win valuable prizes . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 3 15:31:15 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:31:15 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some where X is the person for whom one shops. type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only a sample of what's out there. (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in Scotland." ... www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php BIRTHDAY-SHOP Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things she's written down on a list so far, ... ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you what they want, or is just plain hard to please? www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- jamie- lynn/ WEDDING-SHOP That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html ..... (2) CLOTHING-SHOP Great place to clothing shop for your kids. talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. specktra.net/1222930-post82.html SHOE-SHOP How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ FURNITURE-SHOP It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me about this place. www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture COMPUTER-SHOP What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- inspiron-desktops-over-749/ I've never really computer shopped before. https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 TOOL-SHOP How to Tool Shop on a Budget. www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to be selective ... www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 CAR-SHOP Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged by the ... mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html FOOD-SHOP City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going down. community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx GROCERY-SHOP Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and women ... www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm VEGETABLE-SHOP Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice a week. chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml TOY-SHOP They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to toy shop. www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be astounding, particularly to those who haven’t toy-shopped in awhile. lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] I can’t help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping ..... (3) BABY-SHOP but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop online and not ... community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ baby_products I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church was even more gratifying. hopefulhousewife.com/ KID-SHOP I swore I wasn’t going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the 50-percent-off sale at Children’s Place pulled me like the undertow in the ocean. bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ GoToTopic.html FAMILY-SHOP Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 15:56:04 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:56:04 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031326.mB3Bl478029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Does this individual submit anything but spam here? Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > changes down to 30 tonight! > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > Have a good breakfast. > > -- > Save the whales... > collect the whole set! > Win valuable prizes > > > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 3 15:58:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:58:51 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812031532.mB3Bl4Zs029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2008, at 7:31 AM, i wrote: > back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb > "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where > X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some > where X is the person for whom one shops... > > ... FAMILY-SHOP > > Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal > your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... > www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html this is apparently an instance of a fourth type. "to family shop" seems to be 'to shop with your family, to engage in family shopping'. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 3 16:18:02 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:18:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cocaine" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C91D@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > cocaine (OED 1874) > > 1861 _Madras Journal of Literarature and Science_ 1 Dec. 271 (19th > Century UK Periodicals) A chemical analysis gives an alkaloid, > "Cocaine,"" which bears a strong resemblance to Aconite, the active > principle of Bella donna, and like it, has the property of dilating > the pupil of the eye. The Chemical News [London] July 28, 1860 p.83 col. 2 The leaves of the Erythroxylon Coca are used in Peru as a stimulant like opium, and from them Niemann, the assistant of Wohler, has succeeded in isolating the active principle, an organic base, to which he has given the name of Cocaine.3 http://books.google.com/books?id=XeQEAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA83&dq=cocaine+date:1855-1860&lr=&as_brr=3 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 3 16:22:06 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:22:06 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812030756l26e97a02nefe15e87577045d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Judging from the archives, I'd have to say yes. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 10:56:04AM -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: > Does this individual submit anything but spam here? > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > > > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > > changes down to 30 tonight! > > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > > Have a good breakfast. > > > > -- > > Save the whales... > > collect the whole set! > > Win valuable prizes > > > > > > > > . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Dec 3 16:25:13 2008 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:25:13 -0600 Subject: call one out of one's name Message-ID: It's also in DARE at "call" verb sense 9. Unfortunately, we neglected to include the cross-ref from the phrase to the sense at the verb. We appreciate all the new citations. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:28:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:28:52 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031557.mB3Bl4LW003823@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IIRC, he has. I think that this is probably only a "hi," so to speak. You may recall that I myself required the help of the entire ADS-L community to keep from misposting these not-ready-for-prime-time personal notes to the list. So, I suggest that we gather more evidence of sheer asssholery, before we take Paul to task. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: good morning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this individual submit anything but spam here? > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > >> Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, >> It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind >> changes down to 30 tonight! >> If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. >> Have a good breakfast. >> >> -- >> Save the whales... >> collect the whole set! >> Win valuable prizes >> >> >> >> . >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:32:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:32:44 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031622.mB3Bl4Tn029695@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clearly, then, I do *not* RC. Therefore, I withdraw from the string. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: good morning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judging from the archives, I'd have to say yes. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 10:56:04AM -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: >> Does this individual submit anything but spam here? >> >> Mark Mandel >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: >> >> > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, >> > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind >> > changes down to 30 tonight! >> > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. >> > Have a good breakfast. >> > >> > -- >> > Save the whales... >> > collect the whole set! >> > Win valuable prizes >> > >> > >> > >> > . >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 3 17:02:43 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:02:43 -0800 Subject: trunch Message-ID: That's how the word wizards of TV news have been pronouncing "tranche" the last couple of days.  (Rhymes with "punch.") Till I heard the normal pronunciation from Stuart Varney (Englishman) (and looked it up), I had no idea WTH they were talking about.   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 18:32:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:32:01 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim Message-ID: Mid-thirty-ish, white male speaker: "Your honor, _we_ have this saying, 'bros before hos.'" What do you mean, _we_, white man?!!! And it ain't no "before," neither! It's "b'fo'"! Yet another sordid example of the appropriation of black culture by The Man! Sigh! What can you do? ;-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Dec 3 20:12:28 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:12:28 -0600 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812030408.mB2KBJkY018810@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Just in case there was any doubt, I'm aware that the "original" article is a parody. I just thought it was funny, and tried to extend the joke by submitting what obviously isn't an antedating . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and > "bearded clam" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joel S. Berson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note > that fact when > > I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > > > Joel > > > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that > the editors > > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > > 18th-century newspaper. > > > > JSB > > > > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >>Caveats: NONE > >> > >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, > and does not > >>list "bearded clam" > >> > >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ > October 6, 1783 > >>p. 2 col 5 > >> > >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good > Fortune, reach > >>the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he > may find him > >>self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, > >>only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in > >>those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in > the month > >>of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season > on the Wild Bearded Clam." > >> > >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >>Caveats: NONE > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------ > >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 20:32:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:32:38 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED118@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 12/3/2008 03:12 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >Just in case there was any doubt, I'm aware that the "original" article >is a parody. I just thought it was funny, and tried to extend the joke >by submitting what obviously isn't an antedating . . . I didn't think it was quite as funny (or as genuine-appearing) as I think they were hoping -- but then again, I'm beginning to think of myself as an expert -- or perhaps it's just as a curmudgeon -- on colonial American newspapers. Joel > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:08 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Sam Clements > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and > > "bearded clam" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > > > Sam Clements > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joel S. Berson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > > > > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > > > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note > > that fact when > > > I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > > > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > > > > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > > > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > > > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that > > the editors > > > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > > > 18th-century newspaper. > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > >>Caveats: NONE > > >> > > >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, > > and does not > > >>list "bearded clam" > > >> > > >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ > > October 6, 1783 > > >>p. 2 col 5 > > >> > > >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good > > Fortune, reach > > >>the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he > > may find him > > >>self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, > > >>only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in > > >>those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in > > the month > > >>of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season > > on the Wild Bearded Clam." > > >> > > >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob > > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > >>Caveats: NONE > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 20:43:47 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:43:47 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812031532.mB3Bl4Zs029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I first heard FOOD-SHOP spoken in 1962 by a black female friend in Los Angeles. It made an indelible impression on me because that was the first time that I'd ever heard this expression. Theretofore, I'd heard and used only "go to the store" in this meaning. I was taken aback, to say the least. Now, that I think about it, she was also the first black person that I ever heard use "Jesus (Christ)!" as an exclamation (FWIWirrefutable evidence that she knew white people socially as opposed to merely necessarily; very rare from the lips of a black person, even today) instead of the now-stereotypical, but, nevertheless, still-typical, [Si:It], etc. and was also the source of "pearltongue" as a slang term for "clitoris"; "pull," seduce a woman, for love or for money; "catch," acquire a client for an act of prostitution; "break luck," acquire the first client of the evening; "catching clothes" attractive, stylish dress (not *provocative*; in L.A., back in the day, "common night-walkers," in the 'hood, at least, blended right in with the well-dressed, "square" female population, "turn [a woman] out" turn ... into a prostitute (in later years, I was surprised to find this phrase used in like manner by "Walter" of MY SECRET LIFE fame). -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb > "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where > X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some > where X is the person for whom one shops. > > type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only > a sample of what's out there. > > (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP > > How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... > kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids > > Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? > www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ > > Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose > Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in > Scotland." ... > www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html > > Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to > Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... > x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php > > BIRTHDAY-SHOP > > Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things > she's written down on a list so far, ... > ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html > > Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you > what they want, or is just plain hard to please? > www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ > > Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday > shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. > www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ > > Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, > 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. > newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- > jamie- lynn/ > > WEDDING-SHOP > > That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. > www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm > > In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the > San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... > thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html > > ..... > > (2) CLOTHING-SHOP > > Great place to clothing shop for your kids. > talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 > > I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. > specktra.net/1222930-post82.html > > SHOE-SHOP > > How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever > been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... > www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html > > I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. > justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ > > FURNITURE-SHOP > > It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. > www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html > > I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me > about this place. > www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture > > COMPUTER-SHOP > > What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. > blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- > inspiron-desktops-over-749/ > > I've never really computer shopped before. > https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 > > TOOL-SHOP > > How to Tool Shop on a Budget. > www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html > > I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to > be selective ... > www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 > > CAR-SHOP > > Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! > www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ > > The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged > by the ... > mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html > > FOOD-SHOP > > City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. > query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? > res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 > > Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going > down. > community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx > > GROCERY-SHOP > > Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over > the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. > www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ > > Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and > women ... > www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm > > VEGETABLE-SHOP > > Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice > a week. > chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 > > I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky > Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. > www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml > > TOY-SHOP > > They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are > averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to > toy shop. > www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 > > Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be > astounding, particularly to those who haven't toy-shopped in awhile. > lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? > site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 > > MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] > > I can't help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly > attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. > adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping > > ..... > > (3) BABY-SHOP > > but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop > online and not ... > community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ > baby_products > > I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church > was even more gratifying. > hopefulhousewife.com/ > > KID-SHOP > > I swore I wasn't going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the > 50-percent-off sale at Children's Place pulled me like the undertow in > the ocean. > bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ > > then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... > thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ > GoToTopic.html > > FAMILY-SHOP > > Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal > your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... > www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 21:10:28 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:10:28 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812032044.mB3H0AbW029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: judge-shopping/forum-shopping (2) would be acceptable, if discouraged, while judge-shopping (3) would be frowned upon by ethics committees. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 21:53:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:53:33 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man Message-ID: Judge: "You're just a old, no-good, crack-addict!" Late-forty-ish, black male speaker: "No, I'm not, your honor! I'm a recovering addict, a recovering alcoholic-addict! I'm a changed _nigger_, your honor!" Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went something like this: TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get a hard on_, too. Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 3 22:03:24 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:03:24 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man In-Reply-To: <200812032153.mB3H0Ass029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic > cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was > watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was > interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went > something like this: > > TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the > nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? > > CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get > a hard on_, too. > > Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a > brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) > presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, > ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available > in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. So, something akin to the reanalysis of "send a shout out" as "send a shout-out", which we discussed last year? http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0707B&L=ADS-L&P=R14324 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 00:28:19 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:28:19 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim Message-ID: Whack DAT bro wit yo hoe! dh Wilson Gray wrtoe: Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim >Mid-thirty-ish, white male speaker: >"Your honor, _we_ have this saying, 'bros before hos.'" >What do you mean, _we_, white man?!!! And it ain't no "before," >neither! It's "b'fo'"! >Yet another sordid example of the appropriation of black culture by The Man! >Sigh! What can you do? ;-) >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Dec 4 03:26:32 2008 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:26:32 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: These latest additions to the list of backformed compound verbs headed by 'shop' reminded me of 'doctor-shop', which I noticed a couple of years ago and included with a few other backformations gathered at around the same time: http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2006/03/13/backformation-roundup/. The specific quotation with 'doctor-shop' is: "The decision puts Limbaugh back near square one and is likely to reinvigorate the criminal investigation into whether he 'doctor-shopped.'" ("Justices won't hear Limbaugh appeal," Palm Beach Post 29 Apr. 2005) Neal Whitman Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Velasco" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Marc Velasco > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > judge-shopping/forum-shopping (2) would be acceptable, if discouraged, > while > judge-shopping (3) would be frowned upon by ethics committees. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Dec 4 14:11:14 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 06:11:14 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on this thread. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC unquote _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Dec 4 15:48:16 2008 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:48:16 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: Suggestion isn't enough for these backformations, since the question is whether speakers have actually taken the step of inferring the existence of the verb and started using it. the term. Googling on "store buy", I find a lot of irrelevant hits with 'store' and 'buy' next to each other, but when I searched for 'we store buy', I found this: Do you use vitamins fromyour pedatrition or store buy them? Options: a.. yes, we only use what the doctor gives us b.. no, we store buy them http://www.cafemom.com/quizzes/poll_view.php?id=22151 Neal Whitman Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau " To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by > MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a > term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on > this thread. > > James A. Landau > Test Engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > > ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC > JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC > unquote > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:53:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:53:25 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041411.mB4BkvOY008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:11 AM, Jim Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated > by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence > of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones > discussed on this thread. this is exactly backwards. the usual story on the creation of back- formed two-part verbs is that they arise from "synthetic compounds", compound nouns of the form X + Y, where Y is a PRP, agentive, or PSP version of a V ("bicycle-riding", "bicycle-rider", "storm-tossed") and X is a N denoting a non-subject. synthetic compounds do not presuppose the existence of a verb V+N ("bicycle-ride", "storm-toss"). but synthetic compounds *look* like they're based on V+N verbs, so the way is open for people to innovate these verbs. so from the noun "substitute teacher" 'someone who teaches as a substitute for the regular teacher' we get a new verb "substitute-teach" (pointed out to me by Chris Waigl not long ago), and from the noun "doctor-shopping" 'shopping for a doctor' we get a new verb "doctor-shop" (as Neal Whitman has reminded us). once that's happened and the innovative verb spreads, people will be inclined to see what were originally synthetic compounds as just based on the innovative verb. these days, people think of "babysitter" as based on the verb "babysit", though historically it's the other way around; synchronically, "babysitter" *is* based on the verb "babysit". "store-bought" is a (conventionalized, formulaic) synthetic compound of the PSP type ('bought in/from a store'). it doesn't presuppose a verb "store-buy" 'buy in/from a store' (though such a verb might have been innovated by now). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:06:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:06:18 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041548.mB4Bkvc2008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > Suggestion isn't enough for these backformations, since the question is > whether speakers have actually taken the step of inferring the existence of > the verb and started using it. the term. Googling on "store buy", I find a > lot of irrelevant hits with 'store' and 'buy' next to each other, but when I > searched for 'we store buy', I found this: > > Do you use vitamins fromyour pedatrition or store buy them? ["Pediatrition" is a great misspelling, under the influence from "nutrition", etc.] > Options: > > a.. yes, we only use what the doctor gives us > b.. no, we store buy them > http://www.cafemom.com/quizzes/poll_view.php?id=22151 And you can also find "store(-)bought" used as an active, transitive, past-tense verb: --- http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/butterfly_gardening/35020/240544 The only other Columbine I have is one that I "store-bought" last summer, and it's burgundy and cream colored. --- http://www.halflife2.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-51818.html I store bought it, and activated it, and it's not working very well for me at all :-) I'm about to store-buy it - what's not working for you? --- http://caloriecount.about.com/yummy-low-cal-desserts-gt245-46 I store bought one--it had no bad for you stuff aka trans fats, partially hydrodgenated ya da... --- http://www.fun-theme-party-ideas.com/star-war-birthday-party.html We store bought our cake this time, but a Star War birthday party cake can be done pretty easily. --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 4 17:35:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:35:53 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041553.mB4BqDal029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 7:53 AM, i wrote: > ... synthetic compounds do not > presuppose the existence of a verb V+N ("bicycle-ride", "storm-toss"). > > but synthetic compounds *look* like they're based on V+N verbs, ... for "V+N", read "N+V". ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 20:58:16 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:58:16 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C932@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than necessarily being eloquent or admirable. Below are ones I am considering. I would welcome suggestions of additional quotes from 2008, particularly ones from popular culture or entertainment or sports or business or technology. Many of the political quotes below are anti-Republican in nature (to some extent this is inevitable, I can't distort reality in the interest of balance, i.e., if you nominate people like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin, you're going to have a lot of notable quotes that make you look foolish), so I would also welcome suggestions of particularly notable anti-Democratic quotes, so I can have some balance. Also, if anyone cares to take the time to tell me which of the ones below they think deserve to be in the top 10, that would be extremely helpful. Fred Shapiro I think the Straight Talk Express just lost a wheel. Barack Obama That one. John McCain I am not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago. John McCain, 3rd presidential debate The fundamentals of America's economy are strong. John McCain, Interview with Peter Cook on Bloomberg TV, Apr. 17, 2008 If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exit. Bernie Sanders Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in a financial crisis. Paul Krugman It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number. Treasury spokeswoman to Forbes.com, explaining how the $700 million number was chosen for the initial bailout Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Popular recent maxim I can see Russia from my house. Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin Make it a hundred [more years of having U.S. troops in Iraq]! John McCain [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. Tina Fey on Letterman show I've never been a part of a tie. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. Donovan McNabb A man has a right to defend himself, even against his own leg. Posting on Freakonomics blog about Plaxico Burress You betcha! Sarah Palin Yes, we can! Barack Obama campaign slogan I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. Hillary Clinton We have sort of become a nation of whiners. Phil Gramm What's the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom? Lipstick. Sarah Palin I drink your milkshake. There Will Be Blood Why so serious? The Dark Knight Drill, baby, drill! Slogan of Palin supporters Who would you have picking up the phone at 3 a.m.? Hillary Clinton Campaign ad Change you can believe in. Obama campaign slogan For the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback Michelle Obama I didn't major in math, I majored in miracles. Mike Huckabee As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. Sarah Palin [Response when asked to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads:] All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years. Sarah Palin, Katie Courc CBS News interview, Oct. 1, 2008 [Response when asked how many houses he and his wife own:] I think -- I'll have my staff get to you. It's condominiums where -- I'll have them get to you. John McCain, Interview with Politico, Las Cruces, N.M., Aug. 20, 2008 It's not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to capture their frustrations. Barack Obama ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 21:23:37 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:23:37 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 Message-ID: Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes I just posted. It should be: If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Thu Dec 4 21:49:59 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:49:59 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than necessarily being eloquent or admirable. > > Below are ones I am considering. I would welcome suggestions of additional quotes from 2008, particularly ones from popular culture or entertainment or sports or business or technology. Many of the political quotes below are anti-Republican in nature (to some extent this is inevitable, I can't distort reality in the interest of balance, i.e., if you nominate people like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin, you're going to have a lot of notable quotes that make you look foolish), so I would also welcome suggestions of particularly notable anti-Democratic quotes, so I can have some balance. I don't have one of those, although I remember hearing a few, but I'd offer - perhaps to a different list, such as "The Most Notable Sneer Quotes of 2008"?, John McCain's " 'health' of the mother" line. It certainly struck a whole lot of us strongly. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 22:14:14 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:14:14 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I can see Russia from my house. > Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) > [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. > Tina Fey on Letterman show Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is the new black"? > I drink your milkshake. > There Will Be Blood Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date justifies a 2008 popularization. --Ben ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 4 23:26:16 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:26:16 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042125.mB4BkvCG008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes I just posted. It should be: > >If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Here's another: Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson "many not be" should be "may not be". Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 5 00:50:18 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:50:18 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: A<5f66f9f10812041526v23221f6eq9ac6af452c7459d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, it should say: "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency." Also, since this was Section 8 of the initial Treasury draft of what eventually became the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, I don't know that it should be attributed to Paulson personally, as he is unlikely to have written it and did not take personal credit for it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Mandel Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes >I just posted. It should be: > >If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Here's another: Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson "many not be" should be "may not be". Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 01:07:09 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:07:09 -0500 Subject: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) In-Reply-To: <200812021209.mB2C9og4015470@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Joel is correct that my 1825 citation antedates the adjective in OED from 1856, and the noun from 1837. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) Isn't the 1856 date for the adjective? The noun (The science of languages; philology. a. sing) dates from 1837. Antedating for linguistic (adj). OED 1856-. Weekly Eagle, published as The Semi-Weekly Eagle; Date: 04-02-1849; Volume: II; Issue: 68; Page: [2]; Location: Brattleboro, Vermont [EAN]. This linguistic entertainment soon grew irksome to the impatient Spaniard, and the conference speedily terminated. Joel At 12/2/2008 06:11 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE >science of the general comparison of languages, now developing >itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, >made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials >have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the >diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a >Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself >more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. >... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition >to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. > > >linguistic science (OED 1922) > >1825 [see above] > > >Fred Shapiro > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 02:32:00 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:32:00 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042224.mB4BqD8J029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What about the caption oof a New Yorker carton: "Black is the new black." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> I can see Russia from my house. >> Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin > > (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line > is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) > >> [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. >> Tina Fey on Letterman show > > Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is the new black"? > >> I drink your milkshake. >> There Will Be Blood > > Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date > justifies a 2008 popularization. > > > --Ben > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 02:38:39 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:38:39 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C933@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 12/4/2008 03:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this >President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and >many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. >Hank Paulson This is one I consider very significant. Regardless of carping and correction and attribution. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 02:51:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:51:42 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" Message-ID: Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From berman at UCLALUMNI.NET Fri Dec 5 03:57:43 2008 From: berman at UCLALUMNI.NET (Robert Berman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:57:43 -0800 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BqD1F029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hello, Fred. Thanks for the opportunity. My choices are below, with ranking. Bob Berman Los Angeles ---------- MY CHOICES & RANKINGS of your list. 1• For the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback Michelle Obama 2• It's not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to capture their frustrations. Barack Obama 3• As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. Sarah Palin 4• Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson 5• It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number. Treasury spokeswoman to Forbes.com, explaining how the $700 million number was chosen for the initial bailout 6• [Response when asked to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads:] All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years. Sarah Palin, Katie Couric CBS News interview, Oct. 1, 2008 7• What's the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom? Lipstick. Sarah Palin 8• I've never been a part of a lie [THIS WAS SPELLED "tie" in your request]. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. Donovan McNabb 9• I think the Straight Talk Express just lost a wheel. Barack Obama ---------------------------- ---------------------------- MY CHOICES FOR OTHER QUOTES: The following are all from ALL GREAT QUOTES at http://www.allgreatquotes.com/quotes_of_the_week_2008.shtml "The financial crisis is nothing compared with the environmental crisis." -- Jean-Christophe Vie, of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, on a new report that 25% of the world's mammals face extinction. "If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible; who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time; who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer." -- Barack Obama, in victory speech in US presidential election in home state of Chicago, November 4, 2008. Quotes of the Week - November 17, 2008: "I have signed this agreement because my belief in Zimbabwe and its peoples runs deeper than the scars I bear from the struggle ... and because my hope for the future is greater than the grief for the needless suffering of the past years. We deserve a better life; a life without fear, hunger, poverty and oppression." -- Morgan Tsvangirai, the incoming Prime Minister of Zimbabwe. "For the pain, suffering and hurt of these stolen generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry. To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry. And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry." -- Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd apologises for the past mistreatment of Aborigines. "I don't know if I will die of happiness." -- Sarah Obama, celebrating her grandson's victory in the US presidential election, from her home in the village of Kogelo, Kenya. "It will never work with all those Huns, wops and dagos." -- Britain's Queen Mother on the EU, quoted by BBC man Edward Stourton in his book 'It's a PC World'. "Our preference would be to get a shelter dog, but, obviously, a lot of shelter dogs are mutts like me." -- Barack Obama, on choosing a dog for his children as they go into the White House. "We had never heard of her. We had to look her up in Wikipedia" -- Spokesman for Woolworths stores in UK, who were forced to withdraw a children's bed named "Lolita" after mothers objected to it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ---------------------------------- Metaphors Be With You ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 04:13:36 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:13:36 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <82745f630812041832y34434504ic3dbdaf81d5e477d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:32 PM -0500 12/4/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >What about the caption oof a New Yorker carton: "Black is the new black." > >-Wilson I mentioned that caption here (11/20) and got jumped on because the dictum was old hat, having been discussed a couple of years ago. I think the new cartoon is a particularly apt cite for it, given the election context, but that will have to be our minority report, as it were. LH > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > > > >On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> >>> I can see Russia from my house. >>> Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin >> >> (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line >> is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) >> >>> [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly >>>smart enough. >>> Tina Fey on Letterman show >> >> Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is >>the new black"? >> >>> I drink your milkshake. >>> There Will Be Blood >> >> Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date >> justifies a 2008 popularization. >> >> >> --Ben >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 04:18:14 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:18:14 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0800 12/4/08, Robert Berman wrote: > >8* I've never been a part of a lie [THIS WAS SPELLED "tie" in your >request]. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. >Donovan McNabb > Am I missing something? McNabb said "tie" because he was talking about ties, i.e. NFL games that are still tied after the 15-minute overtime. The quarterback of one of the two teams involved in such a game between the Eagles and Bengals famously admitted he didn't know that such games are officially ties, if they occur during the regular season and not the playoffs. Where do lies come in? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:07:22 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:07:22 -0500 Subject: "Inventative" Message-ID: Used by the voiceover-guy for "sumpnother," as my Texas granddaddy used to say. I've now heard this out of the corner of my ear several times, but only this week have I become certain that this was truly what I was hearing. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:17:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:17:25 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812032044.mB3Jm92b029695@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I hear simple "holiday" used in the meaning, "holiday-shop," in the voiceover of an ad on local cable. Is there no end?! -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I first heard FOOD-SHOP spoken in 1962 by a black female friend in Los > Angeles. It made an indelible impression on me because that was the > first time that I'd ever heard this expression. Theretofore, I'd heard > and used only "go to the store" in this meaning. I was taken aback, to > say the least. Now, that I think about it, she was also the first > black person that I ever heard use "Jesus (Christ)!" as an exclamation > (FWIWirrefutable evidence that she knew white people socially as > opposed to merely necessarily; very rare from the lips of a black > person, even today) instead of the now-stereotypical, but, > nevertheless, still-typical, [Si:It], etc. and was also the source of > "pearltongue" as a slang term for "clitoris"; "pull," seduce a woman, > for love or for money; "catch," acquire a client for an act of > prostitution; "break luck," acquire the first client of the evening; > "catching clothes" attractive, stylish dress (not *provocative*; in > L.A., back in the day, "common night-walkers," in the 'hood, at least, > blended right in with the well-dressed, "square" female population, > "turn [a woman] out" turn ... into a prostitute (in later years, I was > surprised to find this phrase used in like manner by "Walter" of MY > SECRET LIFE fame). > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: more back-formed shopping >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb >> "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where >> X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some >> where X is the person for whom one shops. >> >> type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only >> a sample of what's out there. >> >> (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP >> >> How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... >> kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids >> >> Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? >> www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ >> >> Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose >> Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in >> Scotland." ... >> www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html >> >> Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to >> Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... >> x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php >> >> BIRTHDAY-SHOP >> >> Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things >> she's written down on a list so far, ... >> ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html >> >> Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you >> what they want, or is just plain hard to please? >> www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ >> >> Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday >> shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. >> www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ >> >> Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, >> 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. >> newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- >> jamie- lynn/ >> >> WEDDING-SHOP >> >> That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. >> www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm >> >> In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the >> San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... >> thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html >> >> ..... >> >> (2) CLOTHING-SHOP >> >> Great place to clothing shop for your kids. >> talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 >> >> I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. >> specktra.net/1222930-post82.html >> >> SHOE-SHOP >> >> How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever >> been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... >> www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html >> >> I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. >> justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ >> >> FURNITURE-SHOP >> >> It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. >> www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html >> >> I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me >> about this place. >> www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture >> >> COMPUTER-SHOP >> >> What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. >> blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- >> inspiron-desktops-over-749/ >> >> I've never really computer shopped before. >> https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 >> >> TOOL-SHOP >> >> How to Tool Shop on a Budget. >> www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html >> >> I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to >> be selective ... >> www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 >> >> CAR-SHOP >> >> Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! >> www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ >> >> The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged >> by the ... >> mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html >> >> FOOD-SHOP >> >> City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. >> query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? >> res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 >> >> Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going >> down. >> community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx >> >> GROCERY-SHOP >> >> Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over >> the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. >> www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ >> >> Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and >> women ... >> www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm >> >> VEGETABLE-SHOP >> >> Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice >> a week. >> chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 >> >> I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky >> Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. >> www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml >> >> TOY-SHOP >> >> They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are >> averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to >> toy shop. >> www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 >> >> Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be >> astounding, particularly to those who haven't toy-shopped in awhile. >> lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? >> site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 >> >> MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] >> >> I can't help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly >> attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. >> adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping >> >> ..... >> >> (3) BABY-SHOP >> >> but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop >> online and not ... >> community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ >> baby_products >> >> I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church >> was even more gratifying. >> hopefulhousewife.com/ >> >> KID-SHOP >> >> I swore I wasn't going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the >> 50-percent-off sale at Children's Place pulled me like the undertow in >> the ocean. >> bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ >> >> then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... >> thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ >> GoToTopic.html >> >> FAMILY-SHOP >> >> Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal >> your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... >> www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:31:31 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:31:31 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 2008 to 3 Dec 2008 (#2008-338) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/2008 12:06:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > > > Sam Clements "The Onion" has been around in print form a lot longer than 5 years. I remember running across it in the early 1970s. Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:21:38 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:21:38 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) Message-ID: The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. Hillary Clinton **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:48:02 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:48:02 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man In-Reply-To: <200812032213.mB3Bl4VY029697@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To quote R. Crumb< "Eggs Actly." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic >> cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was >> watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was >> interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went >> something like this: >> >> TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the >> nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? >> >> CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get >> a hard on_, too. >> >> Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a >> brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) >> presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, >> ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available >> in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. > > So, something akin to the reanalysis of "send a shout out" as "send a > shout-out", which we discussed last year? > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0707B&L=ADS-L&P=R14324 > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Fri Dec 5 10:31:09 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:31:09 -0500 Subject: _discover himself to me_ Message-ID: I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his companion. I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 5 10:46:03 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:46:03 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <12185855.1841228473888811.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:29:46 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:29:46 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > >Rosemarie > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a precedent, I'm scared. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:46:34 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:46:34 -0500 Subject: _discover himself to me_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 05:31 AM, David Metevia wrote: >I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > >I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover >himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his >companion. > > >I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. The first few definitions of "discover" in the OED have the sense of "uncover", specifically "3.a. To disclose or expose to view (anything covered up, hidden, or previously unseen), to reveal [note!], show. Now rare." A couple of 18th century quotations: "1716 LADY M. W. MONTAGU Let. to Pope 14 Sept., The stage was built over a..canal, and, at the beginning of the second act, divided into two parts discovering the water. 1797 MRS. RADCLIFFE Italian xxxii, This discovered to Schedoni the various figures assembled in his dusky chamber." There is also "6. To reveal the identity of (a person); hence, to betray. arch." Chess has the "discovered check". "Reveal"s closest sense is 3.[b.] "To display, show, make clear or visible, exhibit." [reflexive]. So I suspect the answer lies in which was more common at the time, and personal preference of the author. It is perhaps interesting, though, that the OED has no definition, nor any quotes that I noticed, for a reflexive form. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 13:51:30 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:51:30 -0800 Subject: _discover himself to me_ In-Reply-To: <200812051031.mB52kva7029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:31 AM, David Metevia wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Metevia > Subject: _discover himself to me_ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > > I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover > himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his > companion. > > > I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. an older sense of "discover". the OED has for sense 3a 'To disclose or expose to view (anything covered up, hidden, or previously unseen), to reveal, show. Now rare.' cites from c1450 through 1882. and more specifically, sense 6 (arch.) 'To reveal the identity of (a person)' -- with a 1726 cite of "discover'd herself to me" and a 1865 cite of "discovering himself to them". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:53:39 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:53:39 -0500 Subject: Q: No reflexive sense defined for "discover, v.)? Message-ID: A correspondent on another list wrote: >I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > >I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover >himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his >companion. While this usage does not seem to me to be odd for the period, I noticed that for "discover" the OED does not specifically have a sense labeled "refl.". Nor any reflexive quotations that I could discover, except for "6. To reveal the identity of (a person); hence, to betray. arch.", which is not the meaning of the _Frankenstein_ quotation. The OED has, however, an explicit reflexive entry for "reveal, v.", namely 3.b. Should there be one for "discover"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 14:07:31 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:07:31 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB53H69B008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Right, Geoff. I feel the same way. It seems to me that I heard "store-boughten" and not "store-bought" as the usual form in horse operas and "hometown" radiio shows like Lum & Abner, Just Plain Bill (often parodied as "Just Plain Bull"), The Judy Canovan Show, Lorenzo Jones & His Wife, Belle, etc., back during The War. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 5 14:37:45 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:37:45 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" In-Reply-To: <200812050507.mB52kvKt029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: > "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" I have a recording from between 2000 and 2002 (i'd have to check for the exact date) of an upper-middle-class male from the northern end of Utah's Wasatch Front, then in his late 70s, in a formal semi-scripted situation saying "on the [kOr], uh, [kar]ner", with some self-repair-type stress on the first syllable of "carner". If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know? -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Dec 5 14:49:25 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:49:25 -0000 Subject: Eggorn? Different cattle of fish Message-ID: A World Wide Words subscriber - John Walden-Jones from Spain - points out that "different cattle of fish" has a number of Google hits. The ADS-L search doesn't work at the moment, so apologies if it has appeared here before. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 5 14:41:39 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:41:39 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language Message-ID: I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop music personality Britney Spears: 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals very little" : Britney insists she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing a guy and hanging out." It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have any other similar uses? There's a 2004 song by Dem Franchize Boyz called "White Tee" that uses slang as a verb in a way that might be similar, but since it's followed in the lyrics by "spitting game" 'making verbal romantic advances towards women,' and because it's a verb, I wouldn't count it: I slang in my white tee, I bang in my white tee All in the club spitting game in my white tee I bling in my white tee, serve fiends in my white tee Fuck a throwback I look clean in my white tee. ("Fiends" is another matter. Some fan lyric sites transcribe it as "feigns," others as "things," others as "fends." It sounds like "fiends" to me and "fiends" makes the most sense, since "serve fiends" would mean to "sell drugs to addicts" which gibes with the ballers'- and-bangers' lifestyle being described in the song.) (One more note: "white tee" refers to the custom of young black men wearing plain white T-shirts as a mode of passive defense. For one thing, if they're wearing white, then they're likely not wearing gang colors and won't offend anyone accidentally. For two, if most young black men wear white tees, then it's hard for the police or witness to pick a single figure out as a suspect. The "white tee" idea makes a small appearance in HBO's series "The Wire" but definitely predates the show and the song above.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 5 14:58:53 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:58:53 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <0F6A0E6C-024E-4C70-9307-BB86E153C541@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:41:39AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop > music personality Britney Spears: > > 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals > very little" : Britney insists > she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool > chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool > slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing > a guy and hanging out." > > It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like > slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have > any other similar uses? > > There's a 2004 song by Dem Franchize Boyz called "White Tee" that uses > slang as a verb in a way that might be similar, but since it's > followed in the lyrics by "spitting game" 'making verbal romantic > advances towards women,' and because it's a verb, I wouldn't count it: > > I slang in my white tee, I bang in my white tee Not familiar with the Spears use, which is interesting; but surely the above example is just the common 'to deal drugs' sense? Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 14:59:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:59:41 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812050531.mB52kvPp029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:17 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I hear simple "holiday" used in the meaning, "holiday-shop," in the > voiceover of an ad on local cable. Is there no end?! could we have the context (and some details about the ad)? it's not something i can google up easily. (there is a british idiom "go holiday" 'go on holiday' and a verb "holiday" 'to vacation', which NOAD2 marks as chiefly british.) a verb "holiday" could also be a verbing with more general meaning ('celebrate the holidays' or something like that). and there's another verbing in "holidayed out" (meaning something like 'exhausted from celebrating the holidays'). but i haven't been able to find any instances of a verb "holiday" that means specifically 'holiday-shop'. so: context, wilson, context! arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Dec 5 15:01:07 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:01:07 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB52kvaB029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. I say "store-boughten"; it is a thing some think I oughtn't but when I have stridden from the store I have boughten a little more ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 5 15:11:07 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:11:07 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <20081205145853.GA20083@panix.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 09:58, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > Not familiar with the Spears use, which is interesting; but > surely the above example is just the common 'to deal drugs' > sense? Maybe, maybe. It's not clear. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:27:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:27:12 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB53H69B008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the > older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand > googits, most un-self-conscious). as against over a million for "store-bought". > I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed > version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A > very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication > 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields > no hits for 'store bought'. the OED under "store" has (entry 14) "store-bought", with "store- boughten" listed as a U.S. variant. the "store-boughten" variant has the earlier cites (1883, 1933, 1974, as against the "store-bought" cites, which start with 1952). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 15:28:29 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:28:29 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: <200812051330.mB5BljSN013511@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Read the fine print. That was H. Clinton, not S. Palin. Mark Mandel On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: > >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and > false > >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > > > >Rosemarie > > > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin > said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a > precedent, I'm scared. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:51:31 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:51:31 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new Message-ID: My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: --- Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burlésque_ (1664), p. 80 A lusty Rascal, such a one As one of you (dispraise to none) Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, The very best of all my Stock. --- That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage from the Book IV burlesque: --- At last she sallies from the House, As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. --- Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": --- Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:07:58 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:07:58 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:21 AM -0500 12/5/08, Your Name wrote: >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > >Rosemarie Now now, perhaps she really did remember it. It doesn't mean it really happened, but she remembered it happening. LH > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > >In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > >I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. >Hillary Clinton > > > >**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and >favorite sites in one place. Try it now. >(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 16:17:53 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:17:53 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051601.mB5BmMKx013541@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IIRC, there's a pun on that in _The Wizard of Oz_. In the book, the Wizard grants the Scarecrow's wish by filling his head with bran instead of straw, thus giving him "bran-new brains". Mark Mandel On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies > surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of > interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: > > --- > Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being > the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burlésque_ (1664), p. 80 > A lusty Rascal, such a one > As one of you (dispraise to none) > Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, > Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; > Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, > The very best of all my Stock. > --- > > That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). > Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of > the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: > > http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott > http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 > > However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage > from the Book IV burlesque: > > --- > At last she sallies from the House, > As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. > Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, > The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. > --- > > Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": > > --- > Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the > right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, > and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 > Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, > That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. > --- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:28:26 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:28:26 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <0F6A0E6C-024E-4C70-9307-BB86E153C541@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop >music personality Britney Spears: > >2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals >very little" : Britney insists >she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool >slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing >a guy and hanging out." > >It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like >slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have >any other similar uses? Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by). Either that or she's just using 3d sg. unmarked agreement with a plural noun, but I'd need more evidence to conclude that. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:33:21 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:33:21 -0500 Subject: Eggorn? Different cattle of fish In-Reply-To: <49393F75.924.7AD204@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: At 2:49 PM +0000 12/5/08, Michael Quinion wrote: >A World Wide Words subscriber - John Walden-Jones from Spain - points out >that "different cattle of fish" has a number of Google hits. As in a cow of a different color? (Given Britney's "the paparazzi has" with its massification of a count noun, "a different cattle of fish" also allows us to conserve the law of lexical thermodynamics by countifying a mass term.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 5 16:53:01 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:53:01 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812050532.mB53H6wR008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of State (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding her from being eligible)? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Your Name > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, > phoney, and false she is. How scarey it is that she almost > became president! > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard > Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. > Hillary Clinton > > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, > email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=eml cntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:06:08 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:06:08 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051618.mB5Blj05013511@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > > > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > IIRC, there's a pun on that in _The Wizard of Oz_. In the book, the > Wizard grants the Scarecrow's wish by filling his head with bran > instead of straw, thus giving him "bran-new brains". Yes, as I mention in the final paragraph of the column. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:26:43 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:26:43 -0800 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <200812051628.mB5BuQHb013990@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >> >> ... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >> reveals >> very little" : Britney insists >> she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >> chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >> cool >> slang away from me... > > Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I > assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some time ago. the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 17:41:41 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:41:41 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" In-Reply-To: <200812051437.mB5BmMls030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure what you mean by, "If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know?", David, but I think that we're in agreement. I'm grew up in Saint Louis, myself. I recall that a teacher at my high school who was a native of Omaha once tried to point out this feature of Saint Louis English. He told us that we had a peculiar way of speaking; for example, we pronounced the name of the local Central-Park equivalent, Forest Park, as FAH-rest Pork, when it should be pronounced as FOUR-est Park. This flew over our heads, because we said FAH-rest *Park*, not FAH-rest *Pork*!" We just laughed at him. I was born in Texas and when we would go back "behind the sun" to visit relatives, the locals would literally burst into laughter at our speech. At the same time, my brother and I used to amuse ourselves by mocking their East-Texas dialect. I was chatting with a black New Yorker, when he suddenly laughed, noting that "*You* say AH-tomatic; *I* say AW-tomatic!" I found this to be really nervy, since we were in Boston, where my accent and his were equally non-local. He had earlier bitched about the fact that a white New Yorker had hassled him about his use of BE/SE UM-brella instead of standard um-BRELLa. So, he laughed at *my* speech, but he was pissed off because someone had corrected *his* speech. The point, such as it was, of my post was merely to point out "Lord" pronounced "lowered" vs. "Lord" pronounced "Lard," the latter being possibly *the* marker of a Saint Louisan. The speaker was a well-known black actor - unfortunately, I'm senior-momenting on his name - who once had his own TV show. What I was trying to get at was that this well-trained, experienced, standard-English-speaking actor was unable to rid himself of the Saint Louis feature, "lord" > "lard." It's like the case of the woman who voices a character in an animated-cartoon commercial. Her use of "bean" for "been" gives her away as a Canadian. His use of "lard" for "lord" gave him away as a Saint Louisan. That's all. As you say, "if it's part of your native variety, it's really *there*." I hope that this makes sense. I'm on several THIS-MEDICINE-MAY-CAUSE-MENTAL-CONFUSION-AND-MAY-HAVE-OTHER-UNEXPECTED-SIDE-EFFECTS-INCLUDING-DEATH meds. Whoa! I've just heard a black woman from Texas pronounce "another" as "an other." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:37 AM, David Bowie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Bowie > Subject: Re: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Wilson Gray > >> Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: > >> "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" > > I have a recording from between 2000 and 2002 (i'd have to check for the > exact date) of an upper-middle-class male from the northern end of > Utah's Wasatch Front, then in his late 70s, in a formal semi-scripted > situation saying "on the [kOr], uh, [kar]ner", with some > self-repair-type stress on the first syllable of "carner". > > If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know? > > -- > David Bowie University of Central Florida > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:46:31 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:46:31 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:26 AM -0800 12/5/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > >>At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> >>>... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >>>reveals >>>very little" : Britney insists >>>she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >>>chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >>>cool >>>slang away from me... >> >>Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I >>assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... > >that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some >time ago. > >the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use >as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences >of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. > Right, that lone paparazzi eating his panini sandwich. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:23:50 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:23:50 -0800 Subject: another round on "to X-shop" Message-ID: In recent postings on N+V compound verbs ("people-watch", "plea- bargain", "store-buy"), I noted that the usual development is (a) V in syntactic construction with N functioning as the head of a non-subject argument ("shop with my family"); (b) N+V' (where V' is related to V by inflection or derivation) in a (non-V) synthetic compound ("family-shopping" 'shopping with one's family', as in "Family-shopping can be wearing"); (c) N+V as a compound verb ("to family-shop"). [the synthetic compounds and the compound verbs are punctuated in various ways: written solid, hyphenated, written as two separate words. i'll let the hyphenated version stand for all three variants.] the label "back-formation" for stage (c) is then a historical label; people who use or hear the verb N+V don't necessarily appreciate its historical source. so the usual consequence of this kind of back-formation in english is the existence of a scattering of N+V compounds in the language. these are duly noted in inventories of the morphological types of english (they are very unevenly represented in dictionaries). they are formally parallel to a type of "noun incorporation" (into verbs) found in many languages, but differ from it in that the english examples are sporadic, while noun incorporation is systematic, general, and productive in languages that are customarily described as having it. [i won't go into several ancillary topics here -- in particular, the animosity of many people towards these back-formations (and verbings and nounings) on the grounds that there are not only innovations, but *unnecessary* innovations.] but sometimes things look different. one class of the "X-shop" verbs stands out here: type (2) in my long posting about the subject, where N +"shop" can be glossed roughly as 'shop for N(s), shop in order to buy N(s)'. in other types of N+"shop" combinations, the story that leads from (a) through (c) seems just right, and is generally supported by attestations, in particular by attestations of the synthetic compounds in (b) before the N+V compounds in (c). i doubt that this is going to work for the avalanche of N+"shop" verbs of type (2). my suggestion -- note, not assertion -- is that N+"shop" in this sense is now a productive pattern in english, so that you can create new instances of it without necessarily having experienced the relevant synthetic compounds. (after four or five hours of collecting N+"shop" verbs in this sense, i tired of the enterprise; there were just too many.) it's hard for me to believe that people had to experience the noun "vegetable-shopping" before they could produce the verb "vegetable- shop". my suggestion is then that N+"shop" in the sense above is an instance of a morphological rule of english, licensing new lexical items (with particular forms and particular meanings). i'm not suggesting that N +V verbs in general are to be described by such a rule, only that there's a small island of regularity in the world of N+V verbs. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 19:13:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:13:38 -0500 Subject: first things first and Palin In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812050728tf6c14b1j106ea640c0858cc2@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 10:28 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Read the fine print. That was H. Clinton, not S. Palin. I did read the fine print. It was the invisible print which I also read. My confusion, ladies and gentlemen, was not about the quote from H. Clinton, but rather from mistaking Rosemarie's "signature" sentence-- which was the first "quotation" immediately below her "The below is ..." -- with one of Fred's year's ten best quotations. It sounded so much like Palin and/or Bush that I saw her name under it. Joel >Mark Mandel > > >On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: > > >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and > > false > > >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > > > > > >Rosemarie > > > > > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > > This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin > > said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a > > precedent, I'm scared. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 19:19:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:19:06 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 12:46 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:26 AM -0800 12/5/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: >> >>>At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >>>> >>>>... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >>>>reveals >>>>very little" : Britney insists >>>>she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >>>>chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >>>>cool >>>>slang away from me... >>> >>>Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I >>>assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... >> >>that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some >>time ago. >> >>the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use >>as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences >>of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. >Right, that lone paparazzi eating his panini sandwich. on the trattoria's terrace watching a graffiti being written on the wall opposite him. JSB >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 5 22:23:23 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:23:23 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BqD1F029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds." NHL Dallas Stars' Steve Avery (this quote drew an indefinite suspension) "Never go full retard." Robert Downey Jr.'s character in "Tropic Thunder" "I think he has an odd combination of longevity and long-windedness that passes for wisdom in Washington. " Karl Rove on Joe Biden "Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked, so Obama could run. Obama is running so our children can fly". Source unknown Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 22:57:28 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:57:28 -0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation Message-ID: Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 01:35:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:35:00 -0500 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) Message-ID: Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central, in which the life-threatening properties of slang are revealed when violence escalates after a thug, having been insulted by being called "dotnose", begins to shoot up the solemn Oxford English Dictionary Word Induction Ceremony at which "dotnose" is in fact being inducted into the Oxford English Dictionary. Sarah pushes her friend Brian, the coiner of the word, out of harm's way and the bullet meant for him instead hits the pompous British lexicographer representing the OED, but he is saved when the bullet enters the pocket OED he has in his vest pocket (no doubt alluding to all those movies in which shootees are saved from a fatal bullet by their vest-pocket Bible). Quote of the Year candidate, from the end of the show, with sentimental music roiling up in the background: 'My name is Sarah Silverman, and I learned something today. I learned that slang can be dangerous and that sticks and stones *can* break your bones and that words *can* ever [sic] hurt you. Tonight, dotnose became a word in our dictionary. Well, let's not forget that once, so did "holocaust" and "diarrhea". One of them happened. And one of them continues to happen".' P.S. If anyone is wondering, "dotnose" applies to a situation in which someone is blissfully unaware of having been rendered ridiculous by (e.g.) having a dot on the tip of his or her nose. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 01:47:25 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) In-Reply-To: <200812060135.mB5LOsjg030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah > Silverman show on Comedy Central [snip] Briefly recapped (with video clips) on Language Log: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=885 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 04:26:56 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 23:26:56 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812051653.mB5GcMXh013541@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of State > (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding her from > being eligible)? > Please elucidate. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 06:12:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 01:12:01 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051601.mB5BmM5S030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I imagine that the author used "dispraise" instead of "disrespect" in order to maintain the rhythm of the line. :-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: bran(d)-new > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies > surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of > interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: > > --- > Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being > the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burlésque_ (1664), p. 80 > A lusty Rascal, such a one > As one of you (dispraise to none) > Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, > Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; > Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, > The very best of all my Stock. > --- > > That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). > Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of > the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: > > http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott > http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 > > However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage > from the Book IV burlesque: > > --- > At last she sallies from the House, > As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. > Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, > The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. > --- > > Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": > > --- > Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the > right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, > and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 > Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, > That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. > --- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hau00fah at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 11:07:53 2008 From: hau00fah at GMAIL.COM (Hifa Al-moamir) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:07:53 +0300 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 6 14:00:31 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 06:00:31 -0800 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought the best part was Officer Jay opining on how slang was destroying the English language. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central, in which the life-threatening properties of slang are revealed when violence escalates after a thug, having been insulted by being called "dotnose", begins to shoot up the solemn Oxford English Dictionary Word Induction Ceremony at which "dotnose" is in fact being inducted into the Oxford English Dictionary. Sarah pushes her friend Brian, the coiner of the word, out of harm's way and the bullet meant for him instead hits the pompous British lexicographer representing the OED, but he is saved when the bullet enters the pocket OED he has in his vest pocket (no doubt alluding to all those movies in which shootees are saved from a fatal bullet by their vest-pocket Bible). Quote of the Year candidate, from the end of the show, with sentimental music roiling up in the background: 'My name is Sarah Silverman, and I learned something today. I learned that slang can be dangerous and that sticks and stones *can* break your bones and that words *can* ever [sic] hurt you. Tonight, dotnose became a word in our dictionary. Well, let's not forget that once, so did "holocaust" and "diarrhea". One of them happened. And one of them continues to happen".' P.S. If anyone is wondering, "dotnose" applies to a situation in which someone is blissfully unaware of having been rendered ridiculous by (e.g.) having a dot on the tip of his or her nose. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 15:10:19 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:10:19 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) Message-ID: There's a new cite on the Double-Tongued Dictionary for "the newlywed and the nearly dead" (referring to San Antonio): http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/newlywed_and_the_nearly_dead_1/ I've heard this epithet used in various parts of the U.S. (and Canada too -- in Victoria, B.C.). Here are some early cites (first one is snippet view, so not verifiable): --- 1932? _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ Even in modern times the mystery meal is not uncommon among newly-weds and nearly-deads. http://books.google.com/books?id=xctEAAAAIAAJ [snippet] --- 1940 _Hartford Courant_ 21 Apr. 16/4 At the swanky Royal Hawaiian they like to say that the Halekulani is peopled by newlyweds and nearly-deads. --- 1947 Cleveland Amory _The Proper Bostonians_ 351 Brookline's Longwood Towers, familiarly known as the home of the newly wed and the nearly dead. --- 1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. --- 1952 _New York Times_ 23 Mar. (Book Review) 20/1 Nowadays, during winters among the newlyweds and nearly-deads in St- Augustine, he is seldom reminded of his once "nation-wide famousness." --- 1964 _Western Folklore_ 23(3) July 191 Santa Barbara has long been known by younger people living there as "the home of the newly~wed and nearly dead," a reference to the fact that the city is a favorite for honeymoons and retirements. --- Sometimes also with "overfed(s)": --- 1950? _Youth Leaders Digest_ She summed up her impressions of some of the folks she met with the remark that they were "newlyweds, overfeds or nearly deads." http://books.google.com/books?id=bd4DAAAAMAAJ [snippet] --- 1965 _Newport (R.I.) Daily News_ 5 Oct. "No," she said. "Nobody here but newly~weds, nearly deads and over~feds." [quoting a waitress at the resort village of Tadasausoc, Quebec] --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 6 15:26:45 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/6/2008 10:10 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot >or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- >filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. Respectively, I assume. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:22:21 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:22:21 -0800 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X Message-ID: noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved on-line). googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): Gulf of Adan 149 Gulf of Arden 1,040 Gulf of Eden 4,280 Gulf of Aden 880,000 reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 6 19:20:07 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:20:07 -0800 Subject: "last October" Message-ID: from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their posts last October. ----- ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time referred to.) i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. "this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others become unsure of what they'd say. in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October 2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that there's a problem in interpretation here. i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sat Dec 6 19:38:49 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:38:49 -0500 Subject: "last October" Message-ID: It seems fairly obvious to me that "last October" refers to the most recent one, that being, in this case, October 2008. Exception: If the author wrote in November, s/he might be expected to say "last month" when meaning the most-recent October. In _that_ situation, "last October" most certainly could be open to interpretation. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Arnold Zwicky" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/6/2008 2:20:07 PM Subject: "last October" >from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: >None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and >two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their >posts last October. >----- >ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known >that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these >calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something >written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most >recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding >calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, >and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time >referred to.) >i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. >"this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will >lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others >become unsure of what they'd say. >in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been >made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" >would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October >2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). >but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that >there's a problem in interpretation here. >i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed >their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. >there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of >this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to >their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* >deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current >deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. >arnold >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 19:54:02 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:54:02 -0500 Subject: "last October" In-Reply-To: <05E5D2C50C060E26315D00500A@Seamus> Message-ID: At 2:38 PM -0500 12/6/08, Doug Harris wrote: >It seems fairly obvious to me that "last October" refers to the most >recent one, that being, in this case, October 2008. >Exception: If the author wrote in November, s/he might be expected >to say "last month" when meaning the most-recent October. In _that_ >situation, "last October" most certainly could be open to >interpretation. >dh "in October" might be more the likely choice to refer to Oct. 2008 in either Nov. or Dec. 2008. "last month" seems a bit informal or imprecise in this context, although it certainly would be unambiguous. LH > > > >----- Original message ---------------------------------------- >From: "Arnold Zwicky" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Received: 12/6/2008 2:20:07 PM >Subject: "last October" > > >>from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: > >>None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and >>two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their >>posts last October. > >>----- > >>ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known >>that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these >>calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something >>written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most >>recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding >>calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, >>and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time >>referred to.) > >>i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. >>"this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will >>lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others >>become unsure of what they'd say. > >>in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been >>made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" >>would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October >>2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). >>but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that >>there's a problem in interpretation here. > >>i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed >>their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. >>there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of >>this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to >>their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* >>deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current >>deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. > >>arnold > >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 6 20:00:07 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:00:07 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <827D7707-42F8-4C5F-9772-83A468C0AD94@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 12/6/2008 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would >appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- >rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? Presumably, and appropriately, "aarrgh-den", on Speak Like a Pirate Day. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Dec 6 23:00:33 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) Message-ID: By searching within the Google book hit for _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ for "May," you can see that it was the issue of 1 May 1932. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" To: Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:10 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) > There's a new cite on the Double-Tongued Dictionary for "the newlywed and > the nearly dead" (referring to San Antonio): > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/newlywed_and_the_nearly_dead_1/ > > I've heard this epithet used in various parts of the U.S. (and Canada > too -- > in Victoria, B.C.). Here are some early cites (first one is snippet view, > so > not verifiable): > > --- > 1932? _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ Even in modern times the mystery > meal > is not uncommon among newly-weds and nearly-deads. > http://books.google.com/books?id=xctEAAAAIAAJ [snippet] > --- > 1940 _Hartford Courant_ 21 Apr. 16/4 At the swanky Royal Hawaiian they > like > to say that the Halekulani is peopled by newlyweds and nearly-deads. > --- > 1947 Cleveland Amory _The Proper Bostonians_ 351 Brookline's Longwood > Towers, familiarly known as the home of the newly wed and the nearly dead. > --- > 1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot > or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- > filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. > --- > 1952 _New York Times_ 23 Mar. (Book Review) 20/1 Nowadays, during winters > among the newlyweds and nearly-deads in St- Augustine, he is seldom > reminded > of his once "nation-wide famousness." > --- > 1964 _Western Folklore_ 23(3) July 191 Santa Barbara has long been known > by > younger people living there as "the home of the newly~wed and nearly > dead," > a reference to the fact that the city is a favorite for honeymoons and > retirements. > --- > > Sometimes also with "overfed(s)": > > --- > 1950? _Youth Leaders Digest_ She summed up her impressions of some of the > folks she met with the remark that they were "newlyweds, overfeds or > nearly > deads." > http://books.google.com/books?id=bd4DAAAAMAAJ [snippet] > --- > 1965 _Newport (R.I.) Daily News_ 5 Oct. "No," she said. "Nobody here but > newly~weds, nearly deads and over~feds." [quoting a waitress at the resort > village of Tadasausoc, Quebec] > --- > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 23:53:28 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <200812061622.mB6BmaYJ019004@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, bother these non-rhotic speakers and their clumsy attempts at eye-dialect! I once met an Aussie named Ken Fawstuh. For reasons that I'll spare you, I assumed that this was Ken Forster. I later was told by a close Aussie friend, who was familiar with my speech pattern, that his name was in fact Ken _Forester_, IIRC WRT the spelling. Interestingly, my informant was herself unable to produce the rhotic pronunciation and gave me to understand wherein lay my misunderstanding primarily by means of gestures. Amazing, given that we were both some random number of sheets into the the wind at a going-away party. The simpler solution of spelling out his name occurred to neither of us. The Aussie non-rhotic pronunciation of /r/ as /a/, though not as clear as the Southern "ah-ruh," would have sufficed and would certainly have been easier than trying to produce "You need 'nother syllable" by MacGyvering a language of gesture and hoping to have it correctly understood by a drunk at a party. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in > the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at > first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf > of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved > on-line). > > googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): > Gulf of Adan 149 > Gulf of Arden 1,040 > Gulf of Eden 4,280 > Gulf of Aden 880,000 > > reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both > the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), > pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an > attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be > people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might > be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low > vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the > Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated > with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. > > the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would > appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- > rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? > > anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 00:51:58 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:51:58 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812030322.mB2KVsd4018806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, no. The person asking these questions (thanks, Kate!) -- 1. May I ask you a question? 2. May I interrupt? 3. May I speak? is indeed asking a question, interrupting, or speaking, BUT WITHOUT PERMISSION -- which, indeed, is about the only way to initiate the conversation. The asker is in essence applying for permission to open contentful discourse, but this "application" is not the content itself. (I'm sure there's a well-developed theory and analysis of this type of opener, and I may even have studied it, but I can't recall doing so, and this insta-label will do for now.) The addressee, or askee, then has several options: a. granting permission, thus accepting the application and allowing the discourse proper to begin b. denying permission, rejecting the application and bringing the whole conversation to an end (or so he or she hopes) c. other reactions less conformant with the form of the application, such as i. ignoring the asker ii. insulting the asker, e.g., "Go to hell!" iii. saying something like "You already have" or "It's too late to ask", etc. Response type c(iii) takes the question self-referentially, as if it were part of the contentful discourse the asker wants to initiate rather than a formulaic application for discourse. It may be made seriously or jokingly or snarkily, and it may be perceived as any of those, not necessarily the same way as the askee meant it. Mark Mandel On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! > THANK GOD!!! > FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! > That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! > Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. > You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." > > -Wilson > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate > wrote: > > > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" > > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. > > > > Katharine in N. California ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 7 01:50:34 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:50:34 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <827D7707-42F8-4C5F-9772-83A468C0AD94@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the Gulf. Joel At 12/6/2008 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in >the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at >first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf >of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved >on-line). > >googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): > Gulf of Adan 149 > Gulf of Arden 1,040 > Gulf of Eden 4,280 > Gulf of Aden 880,000 > >reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both >the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), >pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an >attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be >people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might >be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low >vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the >Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated >with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. > >the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would >appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- >rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? > >anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 16:18:39 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 00:18:39 +0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812052257.mB5LOsgi030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: v/l reversal - revelation > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a > raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K > Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban > Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU At 1:10 -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 16:48:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:48:15 -0500 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <7d8927de0812070818t1c119273x92b91682b1071406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:18 AM +0800 12/8/08, Randy Alexander wrote: >On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: v/l reversal - revelation >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a >> raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K >> Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban >> Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB > >It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU > >At 1:10 M/n reversals are far from unknown; here's one I came across in print this week. In _The Semantics of Murder_, a novel I've been reading based in part of the life and violent death of formal semanticist Richard Montague, the would-be biographer of the Montague stand-in notes that "it is possible for the same statement to be true and not true at the same time". She attributes this observation to Montague's teacher Alfred Tarski, who, she notes, "was talking about antimonies". It's not made clear what that particular metallic element has to do with violations of Aristotle's law of non-contradiction. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 7 16:54:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:54:08 -0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812071618.mB7BlBbe007000@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 7, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic:... n ... m metathesized to m ... n is an often-observed phenomenon in child language in english: my daughter had "aminal" for "animal" and "cimmanon" for "cinnamon" regularly for a period of time, and often spontaneously metathesized n and m in repeating unfamiliar words offered to her. the usual story is that this is part of a tendency to keep coronals to the right of non-coronals. there's a fair amount of literature on the subject. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 7 21:43:57 2008 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:43:57 -0800 Subject: Snowclones Message-ID: A column on one of my favorite topics: http://www.good.is/?p=13907 Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 01:08:03 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:08:03 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812070052.mB6BmaXb019812@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My original post was not intended as a potentially-major contribution to the field deserving of serious discussion. I meant only to note that requests for permission that entail the commission of the act for which permission is being requested, so that refusal of permission is, in some very trivial sense, excluded, are a pet peeve of mine. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well, no. The person asking these questions (thanks, Kate!) -- > > 1. May I ask you a question? > 2. May I interrupt? > 3. May I speak? > > is indeed asking a question, interrupting, or speaking, BUT WITHOUT > PERMISSION -- which, indeed, is about the only way to initiate the > conversation. The asker is in essence applying for permission to open > contentful discourse, but this "application" is not the content > itself. (I'm sure there's a well-developed theory and analysis of this > type of opener, and I may even have studied it, but I can't recall > doing so, and this insta-label will do for now.) The addressee, or > askee, then has several options: > > a. granting permission, thus accepting the application and allowing > the discourse proper to begin > b. denying permission, rejecting the application and bringing the > whole conversation to an end (or so he or she hopes) > c. other reactions less conformant with the form of the application, such as > i. ignoring the asker > ii. insulting the asker, e.g., "Go to hell!" > iii. saying something like "You already have" or "It's too late to > ask", etc. > > Response type c(iii) takes the question self-referentially, as if it > were part of the contentful discourse the asker wants to initiate > rather than a formulaic application for discourse. It may be made > seriously or jokingly or snarkily, and it may be perceived as any of > those, not necessarily the same way as the askee meant it. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! >> THANK GOD!!! >> FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! >> That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! >> Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. >> You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." >> >> -Wilson >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate >> wrote: >> >> > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" >> > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. >> > >> > Katharine in N. California > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 02:18:28 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:18:28 -0500 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812071618.mB7BlBbe007000@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IMO, this entire string is totally irrevelant.:-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: v/l reversal - revelation > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: v/l reversal - revelation >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a >> raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K >> Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban >> Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB > > It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU > > At 1:10 > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 02:47:14 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:47:14 -0500 Subject: another for the QOTY archive Message-ID: (that's Quote Of The Year, of course) I don't think anyone mentioned this one From _Alex and Me_, by Irene Pepperberg, parrot companion and investigator, and quoted in the Times review of the book about the late bird: "Animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know." LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 8 14:43:30 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:43:30 -0800 Subject: B-word broadens further; "knocking" beers Message-ID: On last night's _Bridezillas_ (We-TV) a 19-year-old bride-to-be at her rehearsal dinner said, with enthusiasm,"I'm gettin' married tomorrow and tonight I'm celebratin', bitch!!"   So "bitch" can now be used as roughly equivalent to "man" or "dude," so what?  As top investigator for HDAS, I heard a pair of male college students (or "college men" as they used to be called) addressing each other casually as "bitch" a few years back, though too late for notice in HDAS 1.  Noteworthy now is that the blushing bride was addressing a _guy_!  (Like when gals call gals "guys," but different!)   At the same dinner. the groom's forty-plus mom advised him to "Go to the kitchen and knock a beer. Knock a beer."  Trail-blazing HDAS has that from 1931 (not to be confused with synonymous "knock back"), but all of its earlier exx. are from AAVE.   These dramatic events took place in Dec., 2007 among workin'-class white people near Melbourne, Fla.   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 8 15:59:12 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:59:12 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812060427.mB5LOsvE030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she is constitutionally ineligible for the job. Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." See: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 0 And follow ups here: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 8 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Mandel > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 10:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 > (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < > Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of > > State (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding > > her from being eligible)? > > > > Please elucidate. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 16:14:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:14:08 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:####] "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' Message-ID: caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for that'. from the transcript at http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt ----- (Brass interviews Connor Foster.) CONNOR FOSTER: Okay. So I shot Happy. I hated that guy. But it was self- defense. BRASS: Self-defense, really? How? CONNOR FOSTER: I myself was trying to defend the girls. They needed me to protect them. They depended me on that. So that's what I done. (whispers) This guy was a monster! ----- the character Connor Foster is drunk in this scene, so i thought that maybe that was all that was going on. but i did find a few further "depend NP on" examples (from people who seem to be native speakers of English): for example, I NEVER DEPENDED HIM ON ANYTHING but being there for me. I was always doing things on my own and never wanted or asked him for a dime. http://www.makeuptalk.com/forums/52044-post8.html [quoting earlier posting by Edward] Hertz doesn't have this policy, and I had to rent an SUV from them as a last moment thing, because they didn't have any minivans to rent. Enterprise has cost me more money because I depended them on a reservation that wasn't fulfilled. http://www.failingenterprise.com/forums/enterprise-rent-car-customers-forum/1681-cash-debit-card-customers-8.html ----- the numbers are small enough, however, that they could just be speech errors. the following "depended them on" example almost surely is an error, with the "them" anticipating a later "them": She longed to protect the family, learning the fighting arts like her sister Esmaralde, but when she requested such, her aunt turned her down immediately; to maintain the free and boundless lifestyle to which the family had become accustomed, everyone had their own job, and the quality of life depended them on them doing it efficiently and without complaint. http://p068.ezboard.com/frideonshootingstarfrm10.showNextMessage?topicID=1.topic ----- but there is a possible route to "depend NP on X", namely via transitivization of "depend" by "dropping the preposition" that marks the object, taking intransitive "depend on NP" to transitive "depend NP" (we've discussed other cases of transitivizing P-drop here in the past). some possible examples: I hope Angie slows down and gets the help she needs. Even with all her money she wants to be mommy and not depend other people and if any of you are mothers you can understand that. I just pray she gets help and let Brad help her. Bless you Angie and love your movies and I for one am a BIG FAN, you ROck GIRL. -- CC http://www.starmagazine.com/news/14670?comment_page=11 Not every song a band makes is a hit, so you really have to put a certain amount of effort in when it comes to finding good music unfortunately (especially WN music). You can't always depend other people to do so. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=179887&page=2 This SPED dept has to be brought down for what they have done to the families who depended them to give them answers. http://schwablearningforumarchive.greatschools.net/thread/17799.html ----- this sort of transitivization would take "depend on NP for X" to "depend NP for X", and there are a fair number of examples for that, among them: Countless plant species depend them for propagation, including many agricultural species that feed humanity. Yet in many areas, natural bees are absent. ... http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/art/artists.htm Russia has grown rich and regained power because Europeans depend them for their energy. The Democratic party has been instrumental in crippling our sources ... http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/06/18/high-oil-prices-caused-by-wall-st-not-opec.htm More than 165 species of animals and insects depend them for survival, including black-footed ferrets, coyotes, bald eagles, swift fox, golden eagles, ... http://www.sfzoo.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=13521&orgkey=1900 ----- now, if you have transitive "depend" you might still remember that "depend" takes an oblique object marked by "on" and so use "on" for the second object of "depend": "depend NP on X" is the result. (this is similar to the story about reversed "substitute" that i outlined some time ago: the result is not exactly a combo, but it does have features from two different sources.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 17:00:13 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:00:13 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: A<85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED2DC@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: This is more often called the Ineligibility Clause, or sometimes the Incompatibility Clause or the Sinecure Clause, because there are other provisions of the Constitution that use the word "emolument," particularly Article I, Section 9, Clause 8, which provides that no person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state. The Ineligibility Clause problem is typically addressed with a so-called "Saxbe fix," see article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxbe_fix, under which the emoluments (salary) are decreased to the amount applicable before the Senator was in office. The Volokh Conspiracy blog, http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 , quotes a Prof. Michael Stokes Paulsen as criticizing this approach: <> I'm not personally too impressed with Paulsen's reasoning. There is also a separate issue whether anyone would have standing to challenge a Clinton appointment, although Paulsen thinks it is at least possible that someone would (which I suppose means, in our current environment, that someone will try to do so). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she is constitutionally ineligible for the job. Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." See: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 0 And follow ups here: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 8 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 17:01:46 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:01:46 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <200812070150.mB6BmaQL019813@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is > referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the > Gulf. > > Joel Þe OED saith: 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the Wanderings, etc. b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, including forest-land. Obs. ... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the shade of melancholly boughes. Mark Mandel From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 17:27:35 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:27:35 -0800 Subject: ADS webpage Message-ID: Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 17:48:22 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:####] Fwd: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' Message-ID: i'm re-sending this message because the earlier version apparently didn't through -- probably because i accidentally snarfed up some html code (which i couldn't see). Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 8, 2008 8:14:08 AM PST > To: ADS > Subject: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' > > caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first > aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for > that'. from the transcript at > http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt > > ----- > (Brass interviews Connor Foster.) > > CONNOR FOSTER: Okay. So I shot Happy. I hated that guy. But it was > self- defense. > BRASS: Self-defense, really? How? > CONNOR FOSTER: I myself was trying to defend the girls. They needed > me to protect them. They depended me on that. So that's what I done. > (whispers) This guy was a monster! > ----- > the character Connor Foster is drunk in this scene, so i thought > that maybe that was all that was going on. but i did find a few > further "depend NP on" examples (from people who seem to be native > speakers of English): for example, > I NEVER DEPENDED HIM ON ANYTHING but being there for me. I was > always doing things on my own and never wanted or asked him for a > dime. > http://www.makeuptalk.com/forums/52044-post8.html > [quoting earlier posting by Edward] Hertz doesn't have this > policy, and I had to rent an SUV from them as a last moment thing, > because they didn't have any minivans to rent. Enterprise has cost > me more money because I depended them on a reservation that wasn't > fulfilled. > http://www.failingenterprise.com/forums/enterprise-rent-car-customers-forum/1681-cash-debit-card-customers-8.html > ----- > the numbers are small enough, however, that they could just be > speech errors. the following "depended them on" example almost > surely is an error, with the "them" anticipating a later "them": > She longed to protect the family, learning the fighting arts like > her sister Esmaralde, but when she requested such, her aunt turned > her down immediately; to maintain the free and boundless lifestyle > to which the family had become accustomed, everyone had their own > job, and the quality of life depended them on them doing it > efficiently and without complaint. > http://p068.ezboard.com/frideonshootingstarfrm10.showNextMessage?topicID=1.topic > ----- > but there is a possible route to "depend NP on X", namely via > transitivization of "depend" by "dropping the preposition" that > marks the object, taking intransitive "depend on NP" to transitive > "depend NP" (we've discussed other cases of transitivizing P-drop > here in the past). some possible examples: > I hope Angie slows down and gets the help she needs. Even with all > her money she wants to be mommy and not depend other people and if > any of you are mothers you can understand that. I just pray she gets > help and let Brad help her. Bless you Angie and love your movies and > I for one am a BIG FAN, you ROck GIRL. > > http://www.starmagazine.com/news/14670?comment_page=11 > Not every song a band makes is a hit, so you really have to put a > certain amount of effort in when it comes to finding good music > unfortunately (especially WN music). You can't always depend other > people to do so. > http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=179887&page=2 > This SPED dept has to be brought down for what they have done to > the families who depended them to give them answers. > http://schwablearningforumarchive.greatschools.net/thread/17799.html > ----- > this sort of transitivization would take "depend on NP for X" to > "depend NP for X", and there are a fair number of examples for that, > among them: > Countless plant species depend them for propagation, including many > agricultural species that feed humanity. Yet in many areas, natural > bees are absent. ... > http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/art/artists.htm > Russia has grown rich and regained power because Europeans depend > them for their energy. The Democratic party has been instrumental in > crippling our sources ... > http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/06/18/high-oil-prices-caused-by-wall-st-not-opec.htm > More than 165 species of animals and insects depend them for > survival, including black-footed ferrets, coyotes, bald eagles, > swift fox, golden eagles, ... > http://www.sfzoo.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=13521&orgkey=1900 > ----- > now, if you have transitive "depend" you might still remember that > "depend" takes an oblique object marked by "on" and so use "on" for > the second object of "depend": "depend NP on X" is the result. > (this is similar to the story about reversed "substitute" that i > outlined some time ago: the result is not exactly a combo, but it > does have features from two different sources.) > arnold > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 8 17:48:40 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:48:40 -0500 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: It's up for me right now. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:27:35AM -0800, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 8 17:53:43 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:53:43 -0000 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. It was the LISTSERV search that failed for me, with an error report saying that the server probably wasn't started, not the ADS site, which worked for me a few moments ago. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 8 17:49:52 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:49:52 -0500 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Strange. It works for me, though I'll try it on a bunch more computers and see if I can duplicate the problem. If anyone else has the problem, please email directly with this information: What kind of error are you getting? What URL are you using? Can you send a screenshot? Are you on Mac or PC? What browser are you using? Do you have "anti-phishing" enabled or disabled? Do you you use an ad-blocker? What network are you on? Grant On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:27, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 18:27:36 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:27:36 -0800 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <200812081800.mB8BnO2A025131@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: ADS webpage > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Strange. It works for me, though I'll try it on a bunch more computers > and see if I can duplicate the problem. well, now it works for me too. earlier, the server wasn't responding, so my attempted linking timed out. now that i can get to the site, i see that Mark Mandel's recent follow- up on the "pirates in the Gulf of X" thread looks fine in the archives (though it came to me in an unreadable encoding). i also see that my "depend NP on X" posting is in the archives, but tagged as [SPAM:####], which would explain why i myself didn't get a copy of it -- or of the slightly improved re-sent version that i submitted a little while ago. i'm guessing that the spam filter tagged these postings as bad, bad spam because of the many links in them; the Language Log spam filter just hates comments that have URIs in them "in the clear", rather than in html tags. what i don't know is how many/few people got the postings. i might be able to fix the problem by removing "html://" from the links and posting that version. can some savvy person tell me if that would be likely to work? (if it does, then i'd like to have the previous versions deleted from the archives.) arnold, vexed ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 18:48:08 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:48:08 -0500 Subject: [SPAM:####] Fwd: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' In-Reply-To: <200812081748.mB8Brc20025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I saw it earlier. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > i'm re-sending this message because the earlier version apparently > didn't through -- probably because i accidentally snarfed up some html > code (which i couldn't see). > ... > > > > caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first > > aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for > > that'. from the transcript at > > http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 18:53:41 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:53:41 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, bother. Apparently my posting this morning was encoded. Apparently even a Thorn in jest (in "*Th*e OED") is too much for this listserver. I really wish we could fix that. I was replying to Joel Berson's comment >>> I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the Gulf. <<< ---- The* OED saith: 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the Wanderings, etc. b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, including forest-land. Obs. ... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the shade of melancholly boughes. Mark Mandel "Oh, bother," said the Borg, "we've assimilated Pooh." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 8 18:55:49 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:55:49 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812080901l15343c27x52ae00a891e85ba6@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 12:01 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64On Sat, Dec 6, >2008 at 8:50 PM, Joel S. Berson > > referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the >Ý[‹‚‚ˆ›Ù[‚‚€Þe OED saith: > > 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. >now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with >but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the >Wanderings, etc. > > b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, >including forest-land. Obs. >... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the >shade of melancholly boughes. Yes, thank you Mark, for pointing out to me what I already knew. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Mon Dec 8 20:30:37 2008 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael Covarrubias) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:30:37 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <200812081853.mB8C1F5R025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority house: "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:02:45 2008 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:02:45 -0600 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <493D83ED.9000904@purdue.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps an allusion to Slim Pickens' final scene in Dr. Strangelove? On 12/8/08 2:30 PM, "Michael Covarrubias" wrote: > loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > house: > > > "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:20:11 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:20:11 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <493D83ED.9000904@purdue.edu> Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: >loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority >house: > >"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 8 21:32:26 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:32:26 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? Message-ID: OT: I often wonder who young female cell-phoniacs are talking _to_ -- since none I see ever seem to be _listening_. dh >At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: >>loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority >>house: >> >>"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." >> >Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative >passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was >distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:24:16 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:24:16 -0500 Subject: PREP-Drop: "conceive" v. "conceive of" Message-ID: The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." IMO, this should be "... _conceived of_ ..." But who am I to second-guess the OED? OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44•12 "FREEPORT, ME—After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:40:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:40:44 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812081700.mB8C1FvD025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Damn! A brother just can't catch a break! :-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is more often called the Ineligibility Clause, or sometimes > the Incompatibility Clause or the Sinecure Clause, because there are > other provisions of the Constitution that use the word "emolument," > particularly Article I, Section 9, Clause 8, which provides that no > person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, > shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, > emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, > prince, or foreign state. > > The Ineligibility Clause problem is typically addressed with a > so-called "Saxbe fix," see article on Wikipedia, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxbe_fix, under which the emoluments > (salary) are decreased to the amount applicable before the Senator was > in office. The Volokh Conspiracy blog, > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 > , quotes a Prof. Michael Stokes Paulsen as criticizing this approach: > > < Lloyd. Couldn't Congress pass a repealing statute, or President Bush (or > even President Obama) rescind the executive order, selectively, as to > Hillary and make everybody happy? Nope: The clause forbids the > appointment of someone to an office the emoluments whereof "shall have > been encreased." A "fix" can rescind the salary, but it cannot repeal > historical events. The emoluments of the office had been increased. The > rule specified in the text still controls. > > Unless one views the Constitution's rules as rules that may be dispensed > with when inconvenient; or as not really stating rules at all (but > "standards" or "principles" to be viewed at more-convenient levels of > generality); or as not applicable where a lawsuit might not be brought; > or as not applicable to Democratic administrations, then the plain > linguistic meaning of this chunk of constitutional text forbids the > appointment of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State. I wouldn't bet on > this actually preventing the appointment, however. It didn't stop Lloyd > Bentsen from becoming Secretary of State. But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > wealth. But we don't know what he thinks about provisions of the > Constitution that do not need to be invented, but are actually there in > the document. > > There is one last chance for Hillary. The Emoluments Clause provides > that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time > for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule of the Emoluments Clause > does not apply to female U.S. Senators. It's an out-there argument, of > course (Hillary and I both went to Yale Law School). But I think I would > prefer even this (unpersuasive) pronoun pounce to the Saxbe Fix, or to > ignoring the text of the Constitution entirely.>> > > > I'm not personally too impressed with Paulsen's reasoning. > There is also a separate issue whether anyone would have standing to > challenge a Clinton appointment, although Paulsen thinks it is at least > possible that someone would (which I suppose means, in our current > environment, that someone will try to do so). > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress > cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the > Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the > Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she > is constitutionally ineligible for the job. > > Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or > Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be > appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, > which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been > encreased during such time." > > See: > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 > 0 > > And follow ups here: > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 > 8 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:54:34 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:54:34 EST Subject: Constitutional issues Message-ID: It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > wealth. > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea at UMICH.EDU Mon Dec 8 23:15:29 2008 From: aandrea at UMICH.EDU (Andrea Morrow) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:15:29 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812082254.mB8K9SG7023723@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you look at the context of the snipped text, it's part of a quotation the poster (John Baker) says is from Michael Stokes Paulsen, who was writing on the Volokh Conspiracy blog. John actually says, at the end of the quotation, that he doesn't find Paulsen's reasoning compelling. In addition, John is responding to an ongoing discussion that evolved when Mark Mandel asked for elucidation of a comment about this obscure constitutional provision... So maybe it would be out of order to say that he's out of order? Andrea On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: Constitutional issues > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough > speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in > presenting a > political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue > involving > an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the > United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that > he is > out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the > most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I > think > he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's > salary, > without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > > But it does make an > > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > > wealth. > > > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ( > http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 23:21:24 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:21:24 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Constitutional issues It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about > taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks > the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial > redistribution of wealth. > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 00:23:14 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:23:14 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion Message-ID: My wife: "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." Your faithful correspondent: "_Recycling_ industry." My wife: "Yes. They're having real problems." [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having its trash disposed of.] Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y weather_ list. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 01:01:28 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:01:28 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children Message-ID: Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: "the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. Unfair! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:14:51 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:14:51 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion In-Reply-To: <200812090023.mB8Nd05I025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've always considered those to be optional variants: whether or not to syllabify the /l/. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > My wife: > > "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." > > Your faithful correspondent: > > "_Recycling_ industry." > > My wife: > > "Yes. They're having real problems." > > [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* > $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, > will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having > its trash disposed of.] > > > > Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y > weather_ list. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:19:02 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:19:02 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090101.mB8Nd07a025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My wife & I noticed that difference and decided that it was valid, because the female-specific sense of "cow" is current in everyday English while the male-specific sense of "dog" is not. Or, at least, cow[female] is much better known than dog[male] Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, > asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals > could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his > solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. > > Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is > gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for > male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in > the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. > > But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic > bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it > should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: > "the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. > > Unfair! > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:22:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:22:00 -0500 Subject: PREP-Drop: "conceive" v. "conceive of" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812081424w36f449bflcc42763c84350080@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: > >" ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and >treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." > > >IMO, this should be > >"... _conceived of_ ..." > >But who am I to second-guess the OED? > > >OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: > >"COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD > >"MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 > >"FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having >children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." > Well, I do know a number of couples who find it difficult to conceive of having children... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:40:51 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:40:51 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090101.mB911bKo007699@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8:01 PM -0500 12/8/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, >asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals >could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his >solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. > >Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is >gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for >male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in >the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. > >But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic >bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it >should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: >"the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. > >Unfair! >Joel > Shortz could be seen as making an (implicit) empirical claim about the *primar* sense of each lexical item, while (implicitly) allowing that both are indeed polysemous. In that sense, I'd say it's a defensible claim: the primary sense (statistically and psychologically) of "dog", as reflected in most if not all dictionaries, is non-gender-specific. Lassie would normally (at least by non-dog-breeders) be called an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) dog, not an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) bitch (ignoring the fact that the actors who have played her were in fact non-bitch doggies), and if I said I gave my kids a dog for Christmas, you wouldn't be on safe ground to infer it was a male one. For me, the 'male canis familiaris' sense only arises (outside of lexical semantics discussions) when there's a direct opposition with 'bitch'. The "cow" case is trickier, but arguably the primary sense here is the one opposed to "bull", with gender (or sex) built in. As Lyons put it (I may be paraphrasing here), "a bitch is a female dog" is a straightforward identification claim or definition, while "a bull is a male cow" is a metalinguistic claim (i.e. bulls are the male counterparts of cows). That being said, when I grew up in NYC, "cow" was a general non-gender-specific term for bovines. But what did *we* did know from cows? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:06:15 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:06:15 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion In-Reply-To: <200812090115.mB8KVMho025131@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard that about you, Mark. But I didn't want to believe it. Well, I don't know what else I can say. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've always considered those to be optional variants: whether or not to > syllabify the /l/. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> My wife: >> >> "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." >> >> Your faithful correspondent: >> >> "_Recycling_ industry." >> >> My wife: >> >> "Yes. They're having real problems." >> >> [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* >> $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, >> will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having >> its trash disposed of.] >> >> >> >> Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y >> weather_ list. >> >> -Wilson >> >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:13:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:13:33 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812082321.mB8C1FSn025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, after all. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which > expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for the > linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the > office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that > Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she > became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the > Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative > shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any > civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have > been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during > such time." Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in > the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton > appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested > in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of > lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a > tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will > somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > >> But it does make an >> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >> redistribution of wealth. >> > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 02:21:26 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:21:26 -0700 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812011332w2e287f0dpbf033ba879e91634@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:32:48PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously > intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. > They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such > constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone > younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, such > strings are easily generated and easily understood. > Well, I'm well over thirty )-: But 'the listening-to' doesn't strike me as so strange, probably from the too oft repeated listening-to of my 20-something children. Actually, "the lighting-up of the Hanukkah candles" sounds equally acceptable. So does "the dancing-around of the solsticial bonfire".... Scott Swanson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 9 02:38:30 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:38:30 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: A<82745f630812081813l722fc37t1415432e2d0ffd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The linguistic issue is the meaning of the constitutional clause: "No Senator . . . shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which . . . the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." If the emoluments (compensation) was increased, but then there is a rollback just for the Senator, were the emoluments "encreased"? If so, then Hillary cannot accept the office of Secretary of State. That's the position alleged by some, including the fellow I quoted. On the other hand, I tend to think that there is not really an "encrease" if the compensation actually received by the Senator has not gone up, notwithstanding that there may have been an increase for others who hold that office. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Constitutional issues Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, after all. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, > which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for > the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation > of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period > that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed > when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning > of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or > Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be > appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United > States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall > have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans > have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current > implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just > interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some > kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot > interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States > Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > >> But it does make an >> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >> redistribution of wealth. >> > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 02:40:11 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:40:11 -0700 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <20081204061114.FA5FC190@resin11.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 06:11:14AM -0800, James A. Landau wrote: > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on this thread. > Maybe this has been chewed over several times on this list, but I recall growing up that "store-bought" was used somewhat apologetically to indicate an inferior quality (as, eg. store-bought ice-cream vs. the real hand-churned stuff) or on the other hand to praise the quality of something that couldn't be better-produced at home (She was wearing a store-bought dress!). There was always the dichotomy of "on-the-farm" vs. "at-the-store" and 'to store-buy' would not have been a term anyone would understand. Scott Swanson Pendroy, Montana ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:56:59 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:56:59 EST Subject: Constitutional issues Message-ID: My apologies. I should have read the thread more closely. The linguistic question is real enough, but it is so trivial that I hope I will be forgiven for thinking that somebody was just using it as an excuse for a political rant on ADS-L. As it turns out, someone was just using it as an excuse for a political rant somewhere other than on ADS-L. I agree that it is not a political issue, but the ranter made it out to be something other than trivial in order to find occasion for a ludicrous political comment. The alleged Constitutional issue was settled decades (at least) ago. In a message dated 12/8/08 6:21:52 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: >         Um, no.  I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which > expresses views with which I do not agree.  I did so only for the > linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the > office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that > Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she > became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the > Eligibility Clause?  That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative > shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any > civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have > been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during > such time."  Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in > the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton > appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested > in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of > lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a > tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will > somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > > But it does make an > > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about > > taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks > > the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial > > redistribution of wealth. > > > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place.  Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:58:04 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:58:04 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0_[ADS-L]_faced_with__a_problem=A0?= mixed with bomb dropping? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/8/08 3:30:57 PM, mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU writes: > loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > house: > > > "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:59:37 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:37 EST Subject: faced with a problem=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0mixed?= with bomb dropping? Message-ID: If you party enough, you are likely to say anything. In a message dated 12/8/08 4:20:33 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: > >loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > >house: > > > >"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > > Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative > passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was > distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 03:15:47 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:15:47 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <20081209022126.GB8307@localhost> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: >So does "the dancing-around of the >solsticial bonfire".... Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 03:23:14 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:23:14 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >Or, at least, cow[female] is much >better known than dog[male] That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) Joel At 12/8/2008 08:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 8:01 PM -0500 12/8/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, >>asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals >>could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his >>solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. >> >>Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is >>gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for >>male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in >>the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. >> >>But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic >>bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it >>should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: >>"the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. >> >>Unfair! >>Joel >Shortz could be seen as making an (implicit) empirical claim about >the *primar* sense of each lexical item, while (implicitly) allowing >that both are indeed polysemous. In that sense, I'd say it's a >defensible claim: the primary sense (statistically and >psychologically) of "dog", as reflected in most if not all >dictionaries, is non-gender-specific. Lassie would normally (at >least by non-dog-breeders) be called an intelligent (friendly, >attractive,...) dog, not an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) >bitch (ignoring the fact that the actors who have played her were in >fact non-bitch doggies), and if I said I gave my kids a dog for >Christmas, you wouldn't be on safe ground to infer it was a male one. >For me, the 'male canis familiaris' sense only arises (outside of >lexical semantics discussions) when there's a direct opposition with >'bitch'. The "cow" case is trickier, but arguably the primary sense >here is the one opposed to "bull", with gender (or sex) built in. As >Lyons put it (I may be paraphrasing here), "a bitch is a female dog" >is a straightforward identification claim or definition, while "a >bull is a male cow" is a metalinguistic claim (i.e. bulls are the >male counterparts of cows). That being said, when I grew up in NYC, >"cow" was a general non-gender-specific term for bovines. But what >did *we* did know from cows? > >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 04:04:38 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:04:38 -0700 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812090316.mB93FuXn006897@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:15:47PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: >> So does "the dancing-around of the >> solsticial bonfire".... > > Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) > If you dance fast enough, it really is hard to tell.... Okay, "around-dancing". Bad example, just seasonally overwhelmed. Scott Swanson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 04:11:48 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:11:48 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812090238.mB8C1FVf025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then, just as I'd feared, The Bell Curve *is* correct! Well, I've known it all along. I just didn't want to have to admit it. But, right is right. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The linguistic issue is the meaning of the constitutional > clause: "No Senator . . . shall, during the Time for which he was > elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the > United States, which . . . the Emoluments whereof shall have been > encreased during such time." If the emoluments (compensation) was > increased, but then there is a rollback just for the Senator, were the > emoluments "encreased"? If so, then Hillary cannot accept the office of > Secretary of State. That's the position alleged by some, including the > fellow I quoted. On the other hand, I tend to think that there is not > really an "encrease" if the compensation actually received by the > Senator has not gone up, notwithstanding that there may have been an > increase for others who hold that office. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > > Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something > glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, > after all. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: Constitutional issues >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, >> which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for >> the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation >> of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period >> that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed >> when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning >> of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or >> Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be >> appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United >> States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall > >> have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans > >> have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current >> implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an > intrinsically partisan issue. >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Constitutional issues >> >> It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly >> enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just >> interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some >> kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot >> interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States >> Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is > out of order? >> >> Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of >> the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the >> nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his >> Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. >> >> In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: >> >> >>> But it does make an >>> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >>> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >>> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >>> redistribution of wealth. >>> >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > >> in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& >> icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 05:41:06 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:41:06 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 2008 to 8 Dec 2008 (#2008-343) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/2008 12:09:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: The Emoluments Clause provides that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule of the Emoluments Clause does not apply to female U.S. Senators. Much as I dislike Hillary, I can't imagine anyone will get away with trying to apply that logic. I learned in (approx.) 3rd grade that a generalized "he" should - be taken to mean "he or she." Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 13:11:58 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:11:58 -0500 Subject: glide path Message-ID: Today's Word Routes column is about the term "glide path", which Pres.-Elect Obama has used metaphorically twice in the space of a week (re the economy and the Iraq War): http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1628/ It's been used figuratively (mostly in economic usage) at least since 1973, but this extension is not yet in OED or other dictionaries I checked. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 14:02:19 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:02:19 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <20081209040438.GD8307@localhost> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 11:04 PM, Scott wrote: >On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:15:47PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: > >> So does "the dancing-around of the > >> solsticial bonfire".... > > > > Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) > > > >If you dance fast enough, it really is hard to tell.... > >Okay, "around-dancing". Bad example, just seasonally overwhelmed. I was watching the "of" -- that is, "the dancing-around of the solsticial bonfire" revealed the bonfire dancing, while "the dancing-around the solsticial bonfire" pictured people prancing. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:42:49 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:42:49 -0500 Subject: sweat equity (1950) Message-ID: * sweat equity (OED2 1973, MWCD11 1966) 1950 _Hartford Courant_ 30 Apr. B1/3 Here in Connecticut, a number of persons are putting up homes chiefly by their own "sweat equity." The OED2 def is too restrictive: "an interest in a property earned by a tenant who contributes his labour to its upkeep or renovation". That was the original sense, but it's now often extended to work in return for other types of ownership (e.g., ownership shares of a company), or more generally to hard work in the service of a particular goal. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:54:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:54:02 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: > > " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and > treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." > > IMO, this should be > > "... _conceived of_ ..." > > But who am I to second-guess the OED? the OED's entry for "conceive" has cites for both plain transitive "conceive" and of intransitive "conceive of" in the sense 'think of'. actually, in several senses 'think of': [7b] To form or evolve the idea of (any creation of skill or genius). 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 4 The mind which conceived the Republic. ("conceive of" would also be possible here for me); [8] To form a mental representation or idea of; to form or have a conception or notion of; to think of, imagine. 1888 Jewish Q. Rev. I. 55 The Rabbis could not conceive such a monstrosity as atheistic orthodoxy. (again, "conceive of" is possible for me, indeed much preferable); [8d] intr. to conceive of: To form or have a conception of, think of, imagine. [the transitive uses are earlier than these intransitive uses] 1871 RUSKIN Munera P. Pref. (1880) 10 He cannot conceive of any quality of essential badness or goodness existing in pictures. turning now to google, a search on {"conceive it as"} yields a big pile of examples, most of which seem to be in writing on philosophy or religion. for example, from Ariew, Grene, & Grene in Descartes and His Contemporaries, in a passage speculating about what Hobbes would have said: If you conceive it as extended, you conceive it as a body, and you grant ... If you conceive it as nonextended, you conceive a thing which has a power ... a few more cites, from diverse sources: Sheila: I think we should conceive it as A Man and a Woman have Dinner with Andre—’cause then you have three characters, so that’s interesting. canopycanopycanopy.com/1/a_logical_love_story Some Semantic Web authors conceive it as a hierarchy of "semantic interpretations" (a meta-ontology provides "semantics" to the bottom ontologies). users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/skywritings/index.php?/archives/23-The- Syntactic-Web.html "People conceive it as very glamorous," says Brown. "But day to day, it can be fairly ordinary." Before moving to the academy, she worked as a freelance ... www.guardian.co.uk/money/2004/apr/05/careers.jobsadvice apparently, transitive "conceive" is still alive and kicking, and varies with intransitive "conceive of" in a number of contexts. historically, this is preposition addition, and i would have expected handbooks to complain about the prepositional version (on Omit Needless Words grounds) -- or perhaps to complain about the transitive version (on Include All Necessary Words grounds) -- but so far as i can tell, none of the handbooks even mention the alternation. Wilson Gray continued: > OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: > > "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD > > "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 > > "FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having > children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." definitely preposition addition. a few more examples: Thus, because the petitioner relied on the respondent's actions in agreeing to conceive of a child through artificial insemination, ... lawprofessors.typepad.com/lgbtlaw/2007/10/same-sex-partne.html ... she may have the satisfaction of knowing that she can make it possible for some lucky couple to conceive of a child. ... www.jhunewsletter.com/news/2002/03/29/Features/The-Process.Behind.Egg.Donation-2248251.shtml Mae will joke that the only way she could have conceived of a child is immaculately. The desperate Maggie is subject to a miserable second virginity, ... www.sparknotes.com/drama/cat/canalysis.html these strike me as very odd. but they're certainly out there. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:57:46 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:57:46 -0800 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor Message-ID: a Dutch-German difference? Begin forwarded message: > From: Victor Steinbok > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: interesting metaphor > > From a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > Quote of the Day > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right “chocolate leg” issue: "I > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it’s > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In > Holland we call it my ‘chocolate leg’ but positive thinking is the > key for me.” > OK, here's one source. > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > Catchword for “chocolate leg” > > Catchword: chocolate leg > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > Part of Speech: n. > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > Quotation: “There’s even something like a ‘dominant leg’! You > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. > Try. You’d be amazed. There’s a phrase for that in German: > ‘Schokoladenbein.’” “Chocolate leg? I’m going to assume that > something was lost in the translation here.” > Article or Document Title: > “Re: Left-orium” (URL) > Author: > John C. > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > Date of Publication: > Dec. 29, 2002 > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > Dictionary definition of “chocolate foot” > chocolate foot > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or > kicking; one’s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & > Recreation > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein > ‘favored leg’ (literally ‘chocolate leg’). A similar German word is > Schokoladenseite ‘attractive side’ (literally ‘chocolate side’). > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine’s > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your > pedals horizontal, with your “chocolate foot” (your strongest foot) > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) “Re: > Riding in Arizona”: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) > “Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck”: I turned inside a > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) “Re: Left-orium”: “There’s even > something like a ‘dominant leg’! You automatically try to take off > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You’d be amazed. There’s a > phrase for that in German: ‘Schokoladenbein.’” “Chocolate leg? I’m > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.” > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn’s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which > foot is your “chocolate foot,” as Hans “No Way” Rey calls it. Your > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep > forward when standing on the petals. > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:05:00 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:05:00 -0800 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" Message-ID: tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. (stories all over the place. the ones Ben Zimmer pointed me to are http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_re_us/calling_in_gay http://www.daywithoutagay.org/ ) "A Day Without a Gay" is based on "A Day Without a Mexican" (a 2004 film directed by Sergio Arau), and has the additional virtue of rhyming. "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". don't know whether i'll be in a position to call in gay tomorrow: i might be serving on a jury for the Santa Clara County Superior Court. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:26:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:26:52 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091654.mB9BnJPD028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And then there's "approve (of)? That's another one with people appear to have different intuitions or different perceptions as to what constitutes the "correct" form in a variety of contexts.. For example, the common, if not standard, political-ad tag line: "I'm John Doe and I _approve_ this message" Should be, IMO: "... _approve of_ this message." OTOH, I've just flashed on the possibility that I've been mishearing this bromide and it is actually: "I'm John Doe and I _approved_ this message." In that case, I have only the very minor quibble that *perhaps* the line would be "better" in the form: "... I _have approved_ this message." Nevertheless, I still find that the form: "... _(have) approved of_ this image" is, somewhat like Jesus, still all right with me. However, the "of"-less version of either the Perfect or the Present Perfect won't send me fleeing from the room in tears, in any case. But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the Perfect. But that's merely the impression that I've gotten from casual reading. I leave the ultimate decision to those with greater expertise. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: >> >> " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and >> treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." >> >> IMO, this should be >> >> "... _conceived of_ ..." >> >> But who am I to second-guess the OED? > > the OED's entry for "conceive" has cites for both plain transitive > "conceive" and of intransitive "conceive of" in the sense 'think of'. > actually, in several senses 'think of': > > [7b] To form or evolve the idea of (any creation of skill or > genius). > > 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 4 The mind which conceived the Republic. > > ("conceive of" would also be possible here for me); > > [8] To form a mental representation or idea of; to form or have a > conception or notion of; to think of, imagine. > > 1888 Jewish Q. Rev. I. 55 The Rabbis could not conceive such a > monstrosity as atheistic orthodoxy. > > (again, "conceive of" is possible for me, indeed much preferable); > > [8d] intr. to conceive of: To form or have a conception of, think > of, imagine. [the transitive uses are earlier than these intransitive > uses] > > 1871 RUSKIN Munera P. Pref. (1880) 10 He cannot conceive of any > quality of essential badness or goodness existing in pictures. > > turning now to google, a search on {"conceive it as"} yields a big > pile of examples, most of which seem to be in writing on philosophy or > religion. for example, from Ariew, Grene, & Grene in Descartes and > His Contemporaries, in a passage speculating about what Hobbes would > have said: > > If you conceive it as extended, you conceive it as a body, and you > grant ... If you conceive it as nonextended, you conceive a thing > which has a power ... > > a few more cites, from diverse sources: > > Sheila: I think we should conceive it as A Man and a Woman have > Dinner with Andre—'cause then you have three characters, so that's > interesting. > canopycanopycanopy.com/1/a_logical_love_story > > Some Semantic Web authors conceive it as a hierarchy of "semantic > interpretations" (a meta-ontology provides "semantics" to the bottom > ontologies). > users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/skywritings/index.php?/archives/23-The- > Syntactic-Web.html > > "People conceive it as very glamorous," says Brown. "But day to > day, it can be fairly ordinary." Before moving to the academy, she > worked as a freelance ... > www.guardian.co.uk/money/2004/apr/05/careers.jobsadvice > > apparently, transitive "conceive" is still alive and kicking, and > varies with intransitive "conceive of" in a number of contexts. > historically, this is preposition addition, and i would have expected > handbooks to complain about the prepositional version (on Omit > Needless Words grounds) -- or perhaps to complain about the transitive > version (on Include All Necessary Words grounds) -- but so far as i > can tell, none of the handbooks even mention the alternation. > > Wilson Gray continued: > >> OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: >> >> "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD >> >> "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 >> >> "FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having >> children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." > > definitely preposition addition. a few more examples: > > Thus, because the petitioner relied on the respondent's actions in > agreeing to conceive of a child through artificial insemination, ... > lawprofessors.typepad.com/lgbtlaw/2007/10/same-sex-partne.html > > ... she may have the satisfaction of knowing that she can make it > possible for some lucky couple to conceive of a child. ... > www.jhunewsletter.com/news/2002/03/29/Features/The-Process.Behind.Egg.Donation-2248251.shtml > > Mae will joke that the only way she could have conceived of a child > is immaculately. The desperate Maggie is subject to a miserable second > virginity, ... > www.sparknotes.com/drama/cat/canalysis.html > > these strike me as very odd. but they're certainly out there. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:33:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:33:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: call one out of one's name Message-ID: Twenty-ish, black female speaker from Alabama describing a tiff betwen former friends: "They _called my sister out of her name_! They called her a 'bitch!'" -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:40:42 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:40:42 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091827.mB9BnJZT028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And then there's "approve (of)? That's another one with people appear > to have different intuitions or different perceptions as to what > constitutes the "correct" form in a variety of contexts... see: AZ, 5/15/08: approve (of): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=156 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:53:09 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:53:09 -0500 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812091657.mB9C1cRR004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: alternate hypothesis one possibility is that a dominant foot for standing/jumping (the chocolate foot) is not the same as a dominant foot in terms of coordination/shooting. right-footed/right-handed people tend to jump off of their left foot (making the left the chocolate foot). this naturally means their chocolate foot will not be their favored shooting foot. van Persie's case would be exactly the opposite, since he's a lefty. On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a Dutch-German difference? > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Victor Steinbok > > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > Subject: interesting metaphor > > > > =46rom a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > > Quote of the Day > > > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right =93chocolate leg=94 issue: = > "I =20 > > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it=92s = > =20 > > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In =20 > > Holland we call it my =91chocolate leg=92 but positive thinking is the = > =20 > > key for me.=94 > > OK, here's one source. > > > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means =20= > > > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > > Catchword for =93chocolate leg=94 > > > > Catchword: chocolate leg > > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > > Part of Speech: n. > > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not =20 > > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > > Quotation: =93There=92s even something like a =91dominant leg=92! You > =20= > > > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. =20 > > Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s a phrase for that in German: =20 > > =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? I=92m going to assume that = > =20 > > something was lost in the translation here.=94 > > Article or Document Title: > > =93Re: Left-orium=94 (URL) > > Author: > > John C. > > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > > Date of Publication: > > Dec. 29, 2002 > > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > > Dictionary definition of =93chocolate foot=94 > > chocolate foot > > > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or =20= > > > kicking; one=92s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & =20 > > Recreation > > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein =20= > > > =91favored leg=92 (literally =91chocolate leg=92). A similar German = > word is =20 > > Schokoladenseite =91attractive side=92 (literally =91chocolate side=92).= > > > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine=92s =20 > > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your =20= > > > pedals horizontal, with your =93chocolate foot=94 (your strongest = > foot) =20 > > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) =93Re: =20 > > Riding in Arizona=94: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track =20 > > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot =20= > > > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals =20 > > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) =20 > > =93Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck=94: I turned inside a =20 > > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate =20 > > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: =20 > > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) =93Re: Left-orium=94: =93There=92s = > even =20 > > something like a =91dominant leg=92! You automatically try to take off = > =20 > > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s = > a =20 > > phrase for that in German: =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? = > I=92m =20 > > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.=94 =20= > > > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn=92s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first =20= > > > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which =20= > > > foot is your =93chocolate foot,=94 as Hans =93No Way=94 Rey calls it. = > Your =20 > > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep =20 > > forward when standing on the petals. > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:27:39 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:27:39 -0800 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812090221.mB8Nd0CG025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Scott wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scott > Subject: Re: "the listening-to of Christmas music" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:32:48PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously >> intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. >> They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such >> constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone >> younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, >> such >> strings are easily generated and easily understood. >> they strike me as at best awkward, but then i'm an old guy. certainly they're attested, and from all sorts of sources; just for {"the listening-to of"}, some examples: the listening to of the internal sounds of the body, usually with a stethoscope, to help with medical diagnosis [Latin auscultare to listen attentively] ... www.thefreedictionary.com/auscultation I know this group promotes the listening to of all genres and veins of music, but britney spears as top artist? PUHLEAZE ?!?! www.last.fm/group/I+Listen+To+Everything This isn't one that you buy for a few songs because everything is made so much more by the listening to of the whole. www.amazon.com/Will-Know-Trail-Dead/dp/B000004B8W ... plus you get one free extra listen to spend on the listening to of any of your own songs for your trouble. stained-zurich.blogspot.com/2008/09/16-things-itunes-can-do-to-improve- on _09.html The Commission however strongly condemns the listening to of Mr Arendse’s private conversations and is of the opinion that this amounts to a violation of ... www.sahrc.org.za/sahrc_cms/downloads/ Prevailing%20conditions%20at %20Ambulance%20and%20R... for many of the hits, the motivation for going for the action nominal ("the Ving of DirObj") rather than the shorter gerundive nominal ("Ving DirObj") is unclear to me. maybe the writers thought the action nominal sounded more "serious". there is some motivation in the New Zealand Commission cite, though; the writer is referring to a specific occurrence or set of occurrences of listening, and for some reason chooses not to identify the listener, and maybe "anyone's listening to Mr Arendse's private conversations" would have been too generic. > Well, I'm well over thirty )-: But 'the listening-to' doesn't strike > me as so strange, probably from the too oft repeated listening-to of > my 20-something children. Actually, "the lighting-up of the Hanukkah > candles" sounds equally acceptable. So does "the dancing-around of the > solsticial bonfire".... there are two different V+X constructions here. "listen to" is V +Prep, and though the V selects a particular Prep, V+Prep isn't a syntactic constituent. "light up", however, is V+Prt, and that *is* a syntactic constituent, a two-part V, so it's entirely natural for it to serve as the base for a derived action nominal. (we've been over the V+Prep vs. V+Prt distinction several times in the past here.) "dance around" can be either: "they danced around the tree" is V+Prep, but "the fire danced around" is V+Prt. now, intransitive verbs can serve as the base for *another* kind of action nominal, a subject nominal ("the Ving of Subj", as in "the roaring of the lion"). so, as others have observed, "the dancing- around of the solsticial bonfire" can be a subject nominal related to "the bonfire dances around", with V+Prt. there's no significant issue with the V+Prt cases, but the V+Prep cases are problematic, because V+Prep isn't a V, at least in standard treatments of these things. but in "the listening-to of" and similar examples, people are now treating certain instances of V+Prep (i'd guess: those where the combination is idiomatic) as Vs for the purposes of action nominalization, presumably by analogy to V+Prt. some of us have the impression that this analogy is a relatively recent development, or at least that it's caught on relatively recently. but i have no idea what the facts are. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:35:56 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:35:56 -0800 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor Message-ID: i don't have much to say on this topic myself, so i'm wearying of acting as a middle man between Victor and ADS-L. i've suggested to Victor that he subscribe, but i suspect he doesn't want to be bothered by the mail. Begin forwarded message: > From: Victor Steinbok > Date: December 9, 2008 10:52:32 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: interesting metaphor > > The first piece below is titled "Chocolate leg is the executioner", > which is basically what the first sentence excerpt says. The second > one says, "Curiously enough, the shot came from the right foot," > implying that it was a "left-footed" player. > > The second piece is a bit more interesting. It says, "Henry can be a > bit chocolate-legged... It is more difficult for a left-legged > player to improve his chocolate leg than for a right-legged player." > This is followed by something like, "Take my word for it--I am a > left-legged footballer." (not reproduced here) A side note is that > Google translates "rechtsbenige" as "right isosceles". I consulted a > native speaker and she was not familiar with either "chocoladebeen" > or "rechtbenige", but did suggest that the latter must be "right- > legged". (But only after I suggested that it might have something to > do with handedness. Her first response was, "It must be Belge!" The > difference is in the final e.) Another thing that's interesting is > that she recognized "been" right away, but not "benige". > > I am translating loosely, since my Dutch is not that great. But I am > sure of the general meaning. > > So, if the citation for German was correct, it does seem to be a > German/Dutch difference. And "chocoladebeen" gets a lot of hits > (1100 raw). I found a few that refer to "a very good chocolate leg", > so the idiom appears to be in wide use in this particular context. > Looking back at the citations from the first message (second page > cited for "chocolate foot"), most of them also refer to the less- > favored foot, i.e., non-leading foot on the bike or planting foot in > soccer. My German is nonexistent, so I can't verify how the word is > used in German. Then, there is also this oddity, which is similar to > DoubleTongued definition. > > The only German page where I could get an unambiguous translation > that supported the "dominant leg" interpretation was this one. The > rest were either ambiguous or contradictory. Might there even be a > German/Austrian difference? (With Austrian more similar to Dutch... > Or is it the other way around?) > schau auch v.a. auf die Wadenmuskulatur Deines "kurzen" Bein i.d.R. > wird die deutlich dünner sein als die des Schokoladenbein > > VS-) > > http://bramvanpolen.punt.nl/index.php?r=1&id=410217&tbl_archief=0 > Enkele minuten voor tijd bracht aanvoerder Albert van der Haar met > zijn rechtervoet de Zwolse formatie de volle winst. Het > chocoladebeen fungeert als scherprechter. > ... > Albert van der Haar kreeg de gelegenheid om aan de linkerkant van > het veld op te stormen. De aanvoerder wist de voor zijn eigen goal > staande Kevin Moeilijker te verrassen met een geplaatst > afstandschot. Curieus genoeg kwam de treffer vanaf de rechtervoet. > http://forum.voetbalprimeur.nl/showthread.php?p=412681 > Henry kan weinig met zijn chocoladebeen (let daar maar eens op), > maar is wel één van de betere spitsen ter wereld. > ... > Het is namelijk voor linksbenige spelers moeilijker om het > chocoladebeen te verbeteren dan voor rechtsbenige spelers. > > > > > > Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >> >From a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): >> Quote of the Day >> >> - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right “chocolate leg” issue: >> "I know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but >> it’s basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. >> In Holland we call it my ‘chocolate leg’ but positive thinking is >> the key for me.” >> OK, here's one source. >> >> Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means >> exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. >> http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ >> Catchword for “chocolate leg” >> >> Catchword: chocolate leg >> Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation >> Part of Speech: n. >> The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not >> necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. >> Quotation: “There’s even something like a ‘dominant leg’! You >> automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. >> Try. You’d be amazed. There’s a phrase for that in German: >> ‘Schokoladenbein.’” “Chocolate leg? I’m going to assume that >> something was lost in the translation here.” >> Article or Document Title: >> “Re: Left-orium” (URL) >> Author: >> John C. >> Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: >> Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom >> Date of Publication: >> Dec. 29, 2002 >> This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. >> Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | >> >> http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ >> Dictionary definition of “chocolate foot” >> chocolate foot >> >> n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, >> or kicking; one’s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & >> Recreation >> Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein >> ‘favored leg’ (literally ‘chocolate leg’). A similar German word is >> Schokoladenseite ‘attractive side’ (literally ‘chocolate side’). >> 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend >> Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine’s >> Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep >> your pedals horizontal, with your “chocolate foot” (your strongest >> foot) forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) >> “Re: Riding in Arizona”: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track >> descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate >> foot into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the >> pedals level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record >> (Sept. 20) “Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck”: I turned >> inside a defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my >> chocolate foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. >> Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) “Re: Left-orium”: >> “There’s even something like a ‘dominant leg’! You automatically >> try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You’d be >> amazed. There’s a phrase for that in German: ‘Schokoladenbein.’” >> “Chocolate leg? I’m going to assume that something was lost in the >> translation here.” 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn’s Cycling Primer (June 1) >> p. 34: The first thing you must know before hucking yourself off a >> drop-off is which foot is your “chocolate foot,” as Hans “No Way” >> Rey calls it. Your chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one >> you always keep forward when standing on the petals. >> Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 9 19:57:16 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:57:16 -0800 Subject: OT: Vocab tester & rice donor Message-ID: For those who enjoy learning or being tested on vocab, www.freerice.com has English vocabulary, English grammar, foreign language vocabulary and other topics. Each click results in 20 grains of rice being donated. It looks like it's on the up-and-up to me and the level it put me at was a challenge, but not overwhelming. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:29:17 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:29:17 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search Message-ID: ---- http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] ---- I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ Pretty exciting stuff. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:11:24 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:11:24 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: <200812091805.mB9BnJWN028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two > San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the > U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's > Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic > interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people > are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. [...] > "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". It appears that one inspiration for the snowclone-y substitution of "call in sick" with "call in gay" is this quote, attributed to lesbian activist Robin Tyler: "If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work: 'Hello. Can't work today, still queer.'" This reminds me a bit of the "driving while X" snowclone. Here are some other "call in X (to work)" variations attested on the Web: stupid grumpy sad crazy dead drunk ugly fat stinky gray [referring to hair dye] gasless empty cold well healthy rich hysterical constipated allergic seasonally affective kidnapped Republican Democrat >From a Google search of: <"call in * to work" -"call in sick|late|gay|queer"> (Many are of the negative form, "you can't call in X to work", or the interrogative, "can I call in X to work?") --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 20:32:59 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:32:59 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228854557.493ed51d0b80c@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:29:17PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---- > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html > Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and > current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing > millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular > Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] > ---- > > I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine > they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those > issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ > > Pretty exciting stuff. Ooh, thanks for pointing this out. I started getting results from such places in the last day or two, but didn't know why. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:32:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > ---- > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html > Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and > current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing > millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular > Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] > ---- > > I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine > they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those > issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ Sorry, there are actually scanned issues of "Ebony" from 1962 to 2008. Very scattered coverage so far, though. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:46:14 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:46:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <2A66F998-9FDA-46A1-A9F7-63040D1BC813@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Did anyone notice the non-environmentally PC stance taken by Permalink at the very end of Arnold's message? Is this an eggcorn, "petal" for "pedal"? Can't think of what the alternative might be. Joel At 12/9/2008 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>Your >>chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep >>forward when standing on the petals. >>Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:49:41 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:49:41 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228854557.493ed51d0b80c@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Have they learned what a volume and a number are? (Too lazy to check for myself at the moment.) Joel At 12/9/2008 03:29 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---- >http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html >Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and >current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing >millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular >Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] >---- > >I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine >they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those >issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > >http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ > >Pretty exciting stuff. > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:43:27 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:43:27 -0500 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <31a485c70812091053t249b51f8u8dcdef0e4b490765@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: But -- A right-handed basketball player (or anyone, shooting from the right side of the basket) will push off from the left foot. I tend to think of the left foot here as analogous to the left hand for righties -- used for strength, not dexterity, such as to hold a jar while twisting off the cap with the right hand. By analogy with Schokoladenseite 'attractive side', I would expect 'Schokoladenbein' to be the golden leg, not the weak one. But let's ask Franz (Beckenbauer, that is). Joel At 12/9/2008 01:53 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: >alternate hypothesis > >one possibility is that a dominant foot for standing/jumping (the chocolate >foot) is not the same as a dominant foot in terms of coordination/shooting. > >right-footed/right-handed people tend to jump off of their left foot (making >the left the chocolate foot). this naturally means their chocolate foot >will not be their favored shooting foot. van Persie's case would be exactly >the opposite, since he's a lefty. > > > >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > a Dutch-German difference? > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: Victor Steinbok > > > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > > > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > > Subject: interesting metaphor > > > > > > =46rom a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > > > Quote of the Day > > > > > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right =93chocolate leg=94 issue: = > > "I =20 > > > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it=92s = > > =20 > > > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In =20 > > > Holland we call it my =91chocolate leg=92 but positive thinking is the = > > =20 > > > key for me.=94 > > > OK, here's one source. > > > > > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means =20= > > > > > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > > > Catchword for =93chocolate leg=94 > > > > > > Catchword: chocolate leg > > > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > > > Part of Speech: n. > > > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not =20 > > > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > > > Quotation: =93There=92s even something like a =91dominant leg=92! You > > =20= > > > > > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. =20 > > > Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s a phrase for that in German: =20 > > > =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? I=92m going to assume that = > > =20 > > > something was lost in the translation here.=94 > > > Article or Document Title: > > > =93Re: Left-orium=94 (URL) > > > Author: > > > John C. > > > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > > > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > > > Date of Publication: > > > Dec. 29, 2002 > > > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > > > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > > > Dictionary definition of =93chocolate foot=94 > > > chocolate foot > > > > > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or =20= > > > > > kicking; one=92s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & =20 > > > Recreation > > > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein =20= > > > > > =91favored leg=92 (literally =91chocolate leg=92). A similar German = > > word is =20 > > > Schokoladenseite =91attractive side=92 (literally =91chocolate side=92).= > > > > > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > > > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine=92s =20 > > > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your =20= > > > > > pedals horizontal, with your =93chocolate foot=94 (your strongest = > > foot) =20 > > > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) =93Re: =20 > > > Riding in Arizona=94: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track =20 > > > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot =20= > > > > > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals =20 > > > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) =20 > > > =93Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck=94: I turned inside a =20 > > > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate =20 > > > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: =20 > > > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) =93Re: Left-orium=94: =93There=92s = > > even =20 > > > something like a =91dominant leg=92! You automatically try to take off = > > =20 > > > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s = > > a =20 > > > phrase for that in German: =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? = > > I=92m =20 > > > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.=94 =20= > > > > > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn=92s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first =20= > > > > > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which =20= > > > > > foot is your =93chocolate foot,=94 as Hans =93No Way=94 Rey calls it. = > > Your =20 > > > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep =20 > > > forward when standing on the petals. > > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:51:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:51:17 -0800 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812091927.mB9ICSfJ028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:27 AM, i wrote: > ... there is some motivation in > the New Zealand Commission cite, though ... South African ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:53:57 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:53:57 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some are harder to contexualize than others: "call in gasless"? There's also, in a related snowclone", "stage an X-out" (< sick-out, I assume based on walk-out), such as staging a gay-out or queer-out. (Too close to outing?) And there's always the blue flu for police job actions, although I don't know if that's sponsored snowclones, given the rhyme factor. Hair stylists staging a do-flu? Tiger-cage cleaners putting on a zoo-flu? Underpaid rabbis organizing for...well, you get the idea. LH At 3:11 PM -0500 12/9/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two >> San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the >> U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's >> Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic >> interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people >> are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. >[...] >> "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". > >It appears that one inspiration for the snowclone-y substitution of >"call in sick" with "call in gay" is this quote, attributed to lesbian >activist Robin Tyler: > >"If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work: >'Hello. Can't work today, still queer.'" > >This reminds me a bit of the "driving while X" snowclone. Here are >some other "call in X (to work)" variations attested on the Web: > >stupid >grumpy >sad >crazy >dead >drunk >ugly >fat >stinky >gray [referring to hair dye] >gasless >empty >cold >well >healthy >rich >hysterical >constipated >allergic >seasonally affective >kidnapped >Republican >Democrat > >>>From a Google search of: <"call in * to work" -"call in sick|late|gay|queer"> > >(Many are of the negative form, "you can't call in X to work", or the >interrogative, "can I call in X to work?") > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:55:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:55:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812092046.mB9KkTin000518@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 3:46 PM -0500 12/9/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Did anyone notice the non-environmentally PC stance taken by >Permalink at the very end of Arnold's message? Is this an eggcorn, >"petal" for "pedal"? Can't think of what the alternative might be. > >Joel Maybe a spinoff from a well-attested eggcorn, "to soft-petal", "soft-petalling", etc. LH > >At 12/9/2008 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>Your >>>chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep >>>forward when standing on the petals. >>>Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:55:15 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:55:15 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <200812092029.mB9C1crn004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Have they learned what a volume and a number are? (Too lazy to check > for myself at the moment.) Yes, for the most part the metadata for these magazines seems better than the previously scanned periodicals. I've noticed some misdating (e.g., issues of New York and Mother Jones from 1997 dated as 1977), but overall it looks fairly reliable. I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:57:53 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:57:53 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: <200812092054.mB9ICSwt028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Some are harder to contexualize than others: "call in gasless"? That was from the days of high gas prices. Same with "call in empty". --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Tue Dec 9 20:59:06 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:59:06 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090323.mB8K9SNp023723@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>better known than dog[male] > > That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has > exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef cattle, though). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 21:00:01 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:00:01 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091827.mB9ICSR3028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be > trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the > Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a > preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the > Perfect. That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect tense*s*"). I would call "I approved" an example of the simple past tense. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 21:07:22 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:07:22 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092059.mB9Kieu9028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>better known than dog[male] >> >> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) > > I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle > drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, > but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef > cattle, though). Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 21:15:17 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:15:17 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812091307l2ea6e3edn24e880bd8863c9e7@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/9/2008 04:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham > wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: > >>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much > >>>better known than dog[male] > >> > >> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has > >> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) > > > > I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle > > drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, > > but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef > > cattle, though). > >Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? > >I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it >comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. >How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, >or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? I also observe that Ann is writing as a farmer, not a dog breeder, who might say "dog", "bitch", and (?) "canine". :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 21:35:41 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:35:41 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <200812092055.mB9BnJdX028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search > and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). Here's a little taste of what's archived now: ---- http://books.google.com/books?id=37IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA80 Review of "The Naked Soul of Iceberg Slim" by Preston Wilcox _Black World_, May 1972, p. 80 A theory of Black social systems: Fuck over no one so you will not have to worry about whose going to fuck over you. The "unfucked-over" are both unfuckable and have no need to fuck over anybody else. ---- Note the use of "fuck over [Pronoun]" rather than "fuck [Pronoun] over", a feature of BE that Wilson discussed in a Sep. 2007 thread (somewhat to the bafflement of Dennis, Ron and others): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709D&L=ads-l&P=23064 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Dec 9 22:12:31 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:12:31 +0000 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812092043.mB9C1ctv004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 9 Dec 2008, at 20:43, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > By analogy with Schokoladenseite 'attractive side', I would expect > 'Schokoladenbein' to be the golden leg, not the weak one. But let's > ask Franz (Beckenbauer, that is). "Schokoladenbein" lives a marginal life at the edge of my vocabulary. I had to think about what it might mean, though I vaguely remember encountering it before, with the meaning attested for German. The analogy with "Schokoladenseite" feels right to me. "Schokoladenseite" is in my passive vocabulary, but it's to cutesy for me to use (much). For manual clumsiness, German has the metaphorical "Butterfinger", which unfortunately is the name of a candy bar which got taken off the shelves in Germany after widespread and vocal consumer rejection (it contained/contains genetically modified corn and would have been or was one of the first foodstuffs to be sold in Germany with the obligatory labelling in place). I can't find many examples for "Butterbeine" (butter legs). There's "Butterknie", which is widespread, though more in a context of illness or stage fright than relating to clumsiness. The entire metaphoric complex is not really part of my own regional variety -- sounds norddeutsch to my ears. Chris Waigl chocolate-loving German native speaker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 22:26:47 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:26:47 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228858541.493ee4ad7431d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:35:41PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > > > > I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search > > and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). > > Here's a little taste of what's archived now: > > ---- > http://books.google.com/books?id=37IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA80 > Review of "The Naked Soul of Iceberg Slim" by Preston Wilcox > _Black World_, May 1972, p. 80 > A theory of Black social systems: Fuck over no one so you will not have to worry > about whose going to fuck over you. The "unfucked-over" are both unfuckable and > have no need to fuck over anybody else. > ---- > > Note the use of "fuck over [Pronoun]" rather than "fuck [Pronoun] over", a > feature of BE that Wilson discussed in a Sep. 2007 thread (somewhat to the > bafflement of Dennis, Ron and others): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709D&L=ads-l&P=23064 and which is in HDAS, OED, F-Word to 1961, in AAVE use. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 9 22:33:09 2008 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:33:09 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas Message-ID: At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written in chav-style British English. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Dec 9 22:51:28 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:51:28 +0000 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas In-Reply-To: <200812092236.mB9BnJnv028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 9 Dec 2008, at 22:33, James Harbeck wrote: > At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written > in chav-style British English. > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html > > Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform > complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but > about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. I'd have said "predictably" instead of or in addition to "amusingly". Most members of this list are without doubt aware of the connotations of "speak properly" (which occurs twice), which is brimming with class- related overtones. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 23:33:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:33:36 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092107.mB9ICS1Z028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Once upon a time, people who had cattle as well as hat said, "a / one head of beef cattle." But this was already dying out among those unconcerned with this particular form of agribusiness at least as far back as 1972. Calvert Watkins was unable to persuade most members of his Intro Hittitie class at the LSA Summer Institute at UNC that there was any reason to translate a recurring collocation of graphs as, e.g. "ten head of cattle" as opposed to the simpler and at least as transparent "ten cattle." Would one say, "ten head of sheep"? Of course. Hence, it would be incorrect to say, "ten sheep." Not at all. The defense rests. Remember when milk trucks were drawn by horses wearing rubber shoes, so as not to annoy the still-sleeping 'hood with the clip-clop of regular shoes? When the milkman got out of the truck with a case of deliveries, the horse fired itself up and strode to the next stop. After making his last delivery, the milkman merely walked to the curb, where his "carriage" awaited him, left the empty case, and picked up a full one. Somehow, motor-driven trucks were never able to learn to do this, forcing the milkman to walk half a block or so back to dead machinery. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>better known than dog[male] >>> >>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >> >> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >> cattle, though). > > Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? > > I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it > comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. > How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, > or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 00:11:02 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:11:02 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas Message-ID: In the words of Pupil 2: "On that's gross, near turned my guts that as!" Wiv an accent ony a movver could love. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Chris Waigl" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/9/2008 5:51:28 PM Subject: Re: A very chavvy Christmas >On 9 Dec 2008, at 22:33, James Harbeck wrote: >> At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written >> in chav-style British English. >> >> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as >-a-Kappa-slapper.html >> >> Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform >> complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but >> about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. >I'd have said "predictably" instead of or in addition to "amusingly". >Most members of this list are without doubt aware of the connotations >of "speak properly" (which occurs twice), which is brimming with class- >related overtones. >Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 00:16:28 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:16:28 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children Message-ID: All of which completely ignores the Science Channel's occasional reports about two-headed this or thats. Last night it was a two-headed snake, and two-faced pigs and kittens. Plus a 'cyclops' pig. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Wilson Gray" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/9/2008 6:33:36 PM Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children >Once upon a time, people who had cattle as well as hat said, "a / one >head of beef cattle." But this was already dying out among those >unconcerned with this particular form of agribusiness at least as far >back as 1972. Calvert Watkins was unable to persuade most members of >his Intro Hittitie class at the LSA Summer Institute at UNC that there >was any reason to translate a recurring collocation of graphs as, e.g. >"ten head of cattle" as opposed to the simpler and at least as >transparent "ten cattle." Would one say, "ten head of sheep"? Of >course. Hence, it would be incorrect to say, "ten sheep." Not at all. >The defense rests. >Remember when milk trucks were drawn by horses wearing rubber shoes, >so as not to annoy the still-sleeping 'hood with the clip-clop of >regular shoes? When the milkman got out of the truck with a case of >deliveries, the horse fired itself up and strode to the next stop. >After making his last delivery, the milkman merely walked to the curb, >where his "carriage" awaited him, left the empty case, and picked up a >full one. >Somehow, motor-driven trucks were never able to learn to do this, >forcing the milkman to walk half a block or so back to dead machinery. >-Wilson >––– >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham >wrote: >>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>>better known than dog[male] >>>> >>>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >>> >>> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >>> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >>> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >>> cattle, though). >> >> Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? >> >> I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it >> comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. >> How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, >> or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:01:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:01:02 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812092100.mB9KtRvd004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be >> trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the >> Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a >> preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of >> the >> Perfect. > > That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your > terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned > of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have > approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect > tense*s*"). my guess is that wilson was referring to the (well-known) shift in (especially american) english towards using the simple past (corresponding roughly to the "imperfect" of some other languages) where the present perfect would have been used earlier, as in "I already did it" (instead of "I've already done it"). but, yes, the terminology is balled up somehow. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 01:22:22 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:22:22 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812092100.mB9KtRvd004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be more transparent: 1) I act 2) I acted 3) I have acted But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the terminology and a person was forever having to translate the terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided. I admit to making no attempt to maintain currency in the use of such terminology. If it's latterly - from my point of view - become standardized, I'm unaware of it, unfortunately. Mark, if I'd known that non-conforming or, I'm willing to grant, if that helps, mistaken terminology, even in a post as trivial as mine, was a pet peeve of yours, I would have gone to Wikipedia before I posted. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be >> trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the >> Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a >> preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the >> Perfect. > > That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your > terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned > of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have > approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect > tense*s*"). I would call "I approved" an example of the simple past > tense. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:34:05 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:34:05 -0800 Subject: mailer/archive problems Message-ID: just noticed that a middle-sized posting of mine following up on "the listening-to of Christmas music" went out, according to my records, at 11:27 PST this morning, with a small correction at 11:51. but neither appears in the archives. nor does a brief follow-up of mine to Wilson Gray (on "conceive (of)") that went out at 10:40 a.m. PST. there's more, but this will do for the moment. arnold, continuing to be puzzled ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:38:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:38:17 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812100122.mB9KieRt028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical > terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" > from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be > more transparent: > > 1) I act > 2) I acted > 3) I have acted > > But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the > terminology and a person was forever having to translate the > terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to > which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... 2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", "preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present perfect" (for English). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 01:57:59 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:57:59 -0500 Subject: mailer/archive problems In-Reply-To: <200812100134.mBA0261R028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This may not be the same problem, but I've used three different email addresses to subscribe to ADS-L. Two of them, my @bsu.edu and my former home email address simply stopped working. I received postings, but my postings didn't appear. This went on for several years. So far my gmail address has worked without a hitch. Server hiccups? Herb On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: mailer/archive problems > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > just noticed that a middle-sized posting of mine following up on "the > listening-to of Christmas music" went out, according to my records, at > 11:27 PST this morning, with a small correction at 11:51. but neither > appears in the archives. nor does a brief follow-up of mine to Wilson > Gray (on "conceive (of)") that went out at 10:40 a.m. PST. > > there's more, but this will do for the moment. > > arnold, continuing to be puzzled > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 02:01:16 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:01:16 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <917832B9-1E43-4E68-A604-DDA3932C4FED@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical >>terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>more transparent: >> >>1) I act >>2) I acted >>3) I have acted >> >>But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... > >2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >"preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >perfect" (for English). > And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 04:35:13 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:35:13 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812100201.mBA0261x028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's >>> grammatical >>> terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>> from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>> more transparent: >>> >>> 1) I act >>> 2) I acted >>> 3) I have acted >>> >>> But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>> terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>> terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>> which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... >> >> 2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >> "preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >> perfect" (for English). >> > And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. > Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called > the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? > > LH ~~~~~~~~~ As I recall, that was the model we got in Latin for the imperfect: i.e., Subj was verbing. OT but on definitions: A friend, knowing we rarely observe Xmas except to hope that it will bring an end to all the noisy, ugly hype, recommended that we "have a Jewish christmas", defined as ordering in Chinese & going to a movie. AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 04:49:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:49:00 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <750BF1AB-E0CA-497C-8663-9A953E1A2583@att.net> Message-ID: At 11:35 PM -0500 12/9/08, Alison Murie wrote: >On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's >>>>grammatical >>>>terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>>>from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>>>more transparent: >>>> >>>>1) I act >>>>2) I acted >>>>3) I have acted >>>> >>>>But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>>>terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>>>terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>>>which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... >>> >>>2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >>>"preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >>>perfect" (for English). >>> >>And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. >>Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called >>the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? >> >>LH >~~~~~~~~~ >As I recall, that was the model we got in Latin for the imperfect: i.e., >Subj was verbing. > >OT but on definitions: A friend, knowing we rarely observe Xmas >except to hope >that it will bring an end to all the noisy, ugly hype, recommended >that we "have >a Jewish christmas", defined as ordering in Chinese & going to a movie. >AM > Now, now, we live in modern times and there's no need to stick with the traditions of our grandparents. Many Talmudic scholars see nothing wrong with going out to eat Chinese and watching a video at home. LH LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 05:45:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:45:36 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas In-Reply-To: <200812092236.mB9BnJnv028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Pupil three: "Well. Then blow me ..." Ca.1975, I was vaguely acquainted with an Englishwoman - the victim-wife of my girlfriend's abusive, Australian ex-boyfriend - who randomly alternated "blow me" with "blimey" in her speech. Surprised to hear a woman say "blow me," I asked her about it. But, before she could complete her response, the husband interrupted, shouting, "Oh, you liar! You liar! Shut up!", as was his wont, whenever she attempted to make a statement without having him vet it first. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:33 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: A very chavvy Christmas > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written > in chav-style British English. > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html > > Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform > complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but > about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 07:04:23 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:04:23 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By > "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than > necessarily being eloquent or admirable. I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU Wed Dec 10 08:04:30 2008 From: DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:04:30 -0600 Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved – from the elected officials down to the mailroom clerks – understands what the rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other acts of political corruption. According to Patrick J. Fitzgerald, U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make Lincoln roll over in his grave." .... read the rest of this post on the Web of Language http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 12:53:45 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:53:45 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political languae? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer [bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By > "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than > necessarily being eloquent or admirable. I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 10 13:18:56 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:18:56 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C9AF@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > languae? I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. I say wait ten years and let's see. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 14:31:31 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:31:31 -0500 Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training thathe m andated for all state employees? Message-ID: He may perhaps have been a believer in the concept that, as some writers say re grammar rules, you have to know 'em before you can (carefully) break them. The difference: He wasn't careful. -- And though these were your words, not his, it appears he was attempting to raise IL from being "a politically corrupt state" to being "THE (pinnacle) politically corrupt state". dh Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? >There's a new post on the Web of Language: >Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he >mandated for all state employees? >In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online >ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for >being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to >put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in >state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved – from the >elected officials down to the mailroom clerks – understands what the >rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." >But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training >himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to >sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other >acts of political corruption. According to Patrick J. Fitzgerald, >U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who >convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while >letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make >Lincoln roll over in his grave." >.... >read the rest of this post on the Web of Language >http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage >Dennis Baron >Professor of English and Linguistics >Department of English >University of Illinois >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 >office: 217-244-0568 >fax: 217-333-4321 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:04:57 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:04:57 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 Message-ID: Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no such constraint. Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that important. G. ________________________________ Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > languae? I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. I say wait ten years and let's see. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:08:45 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: substitution of X with Y Message-ID: "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in sick' ..."? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:22:29 2008 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael Covarrubias) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101505.mBABlJhc014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no > such constraint. > > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that > important. > > that's why i like fitzgerald's comment as he quoted blago: "and the bleeps were not really bleeps." michael ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:30:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:30:33 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101505.mBABlJo6032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County was. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = > such constraint. > =20 > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that = > important. > =20 > G.=20 > > ________________________________ > > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: > > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >> languae? > > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. > > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. > > I say wait ten years and let's see. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:32:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:32:53 -0800 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101508.mBABlJia014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." > > I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... > substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be > grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in > sick' ..."? we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of mine from 10/26/04: using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, the original verb usages were: (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) ---- as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material from "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly be labeled as non-standard. to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being of interest. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:42:16 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:42:16 -0500 Subject: "word to mother" (1985) In-Reply-To: <200809130517.m8D4JrJQ017582@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Does the OED include "Word Up!", documentable to 1986, when it > > appeared as the title of a song written by Lawrence Ernest "Larry" > > Blackmon and recorded by the group, Cameo? > > Yes indeed. > > --- > B. int. slang (orig. U.S., in the language of rap and hip-hop). > Also _word up_. Expressing affirmation, agreement, or admiration: > 'That's the truth!' 'There's no denying it!' 'For sure!' > 1981 J. SPICER et al. Money (Dollar Bill Y'all) (song) in L. A. > Stanley Rap: the Lyrics (1992) 301 Word.., that's a good record, man. > 1986 'CAMEO' (title of record) Word up! 1993 B. CROSS It's not about > Salary 251 Tommy Boy signed it, and here's the House of Pain, word up. > 2002 N. MCDONELL Twelve liii. 133 'Yo b, we gonna smoke some mad bowls > tonight,' Timmy says to Mark Rothko. 'Word, word,' Mark Rothko agrees > sagely. > --- Here's "word up" before the Cameo song: 1985 _New York_ 3 June 28/1 Alex said, "Yo Ross, word up, I'm going to fiend a head." ["Fiend" is explained as 'choke', and "head" as 'victim (of a robbery)'.] 1985 _New York_ 3 June 40/2 "Just trying to stay out of trouble," Alex said. "Word up." >From the cover story "Hunting the Wolf Packs": http://books.google.com/books?id=07YBAAAAMBAJ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 16:00:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:00:38 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <82745f630812100730j1ef6e108v231ecd21c95777ae@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, Illinois was presumably corrupt then also? >I never knew the name of >any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >was. But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long stretches. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:30:03 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:30:03 -0500 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101533.mBABlJn6014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, arnold, but, really, "You got the old coon, this time," as the punch line to the old, long-winded pun goes. I vaguely remember the discussion. Hence, I know that I could have looked up the discussion in the archives. I'm kinda having a bad-health day and am preparing to make a run to the doc's and I just didn't feel like it. I didn't participate in that discussion because I was still dealing with the newcomer attitude problem: Can it truly be the case that I'm the only person on earth - or is that "on Earth"? - who speaks proper English?! Though I grew up with only "substitute X for Y," I knew that German and other languages had something like "substitute Y with X," which hung me up when I first came across it, since it required "reverse interpretation," so to speak. Then, I started to see something similar in English (in BrE first?), where, IMO at the time, it was an even worse problem, since it really interferes with my automatic understanding of English. Now, having mastered my initially-negative emotional response - like, it's about *dialects*, whether academic or rural, no? - I was just kinda, sorta wondering how far people for whom this construction is natural are willing to take this "innovation." Though I meant no harm, I apologize. (This is as close as I can come to the hated, extremely-peeving, "*if* I've done anything that someone may have been injured by," etc. That's *so* bleeping weasling! It's makes it seem as though the problem is the injured party's fault for being overly sensitive, even unmanly and not able to take it. Either apologize for real or tell them to get stuffed.) -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: substitution of X with Y >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." >> >> I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... >> substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be >> grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in >> sick' ..."? > > we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled > "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of > mine from 10/26/04: > > using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, > the original verb usages were: > (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) > (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) > > "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the > proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): > (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) > > ---- > > as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice > discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). > > encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material from > "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly be > labeled as non-standard. > > to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in > these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on > ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being > of interest. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gww at OLEMISS.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:54:14 2008 From: gww at OLEMISS.EDU (Gerald Walton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:54:14 -0600 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812101730.mBAHP1Eu014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." GWW ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:15:03 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:15:03 -0500 Subject: Test message (sorry for the possible duplication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I sent essentially the same message out at 11:43 (according to my Out box), but as of 1:14 it hasn't shown up in my In box. LH At 2:04 AM -0500 12/10/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most >>notable quotations of the year. By >> "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly >>revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than >> necessarily being eloquent or admirable. > >I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: > >"I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just >not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and >I can always use it. I can parachute me there." > >--Ben Zimmer Beyond the bleeps and the colorful instance of negative concord (I was getting tired of "Ain't no cat can't get into no coop" and "I can't get no satisfaction", so "I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing" will be a breath of fresh air), there's the curious pronominal in the last sentence, which isn't a personal dative (no direct object) and isn't a contrastive focus pronominal ("I'm just [bleepin] worrying about *me*"). What it's more like is the physical displacement pronominals in "Now I lay me down to sleep" and "I sat me down" (> 15000 google hits; cf. also "I set me down", with 960 g-hits from country lyrics like "I set me down beside her"). As Gregory Ward just pointed out to me, 'there's a use of the non-reflexive with verbs of transport. So, you get "I could move me over two spaces" in an on-line game. Or "I have no trouble taking me there" (in the context of "Don't go there"). Or "I put me there on purpose" (in explaining a seating chart). I've always taken these to be a kind of dual persona use: I'm transporting my physical self to some location.' LH P.S. There are 3,110 g-hits for "I can parachute me", but (surprise!) they all seem to be less than two days old. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:24:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:24:18 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJAu032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 2:04 AM -0500 12/10/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >>"I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just >>not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and >>I can always use it. I can parachute me there." > > Beyond the bleeps and the colorful instance of negative concord (I > was getting tired of "Ain't no cat can't get into no coop" and "I > can't get no satisfaction", so "I'm just not giving it up for > [bleep]in' nothing" will be a breath of fresh air), there's the > curious pronominal in the last sentence, which isn't a personal > dative (no direct object) and isn't a contrastive focus pronominal > ("I'm just [bleepin] worrying about *me*"). What it's more like is > the physical displacement pronominals in "Now I lay me down to sleep" > and "I sat me down" (> 15000 google hits; cf. also "I set me down", > with 960 g-hits from country lyrics like "I set me down beside her"). > As Gregory Ward just pointed out to me, 'there's a use of the > non-reflexive with verbs of transport. So, you get "I could move me > over two spaces" in an on-line game. Or "I have no trouble taking me > there" (in the context of "Don't go there"). Or "I put me there on > purpose" (in explaining a seating chart). I've always taken these to > be a kind of dual persona use: I'm transporting my physical self to > some location.' Note also that elsewhere in the wiretap excerpts Blagojevich uses the plain old reflexive for "send": "Unless I get something real good [for Senate candidate 1], shit, I'll just send myself, you know what I'm saying." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 10 19:19:18 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:19:18 -0800 Subject: Dizzy Blondes Message-ID: "Blonde jokes" are a recent (1984: NewspaperArchive.com) genre of annoying humor, but before blondes were stereotyped as "dumb" the usual dismissive adjective was "dizzy."   An OED cite refers to a "company of Dizzy Blondes" in 1889, but the phrase - and the boffo theatrical concept combining ditz with bosoms - is older than that:   1877 _Macon Telegraph and Messenger_ (Oct. 24) 4: The Dizzy Blondes. Next Monday evening the Dizzy Blondes will visit Macon and give an exhibition which, it is claimed, will exceed everything ever seen on the boards of Ralston Hall. The name of the troupe indicates the character of the "exhibition." ...[T]he applause which [ever] attends the performance resembles the roar of thunder or the deep chant of the mighty seas.   [Ed. note: to the right is an advertising column stacked with repetitions of the phrase "DIZZY BLONDES."  It tells of "The greatest Sensation. House Packed from Pit to Dome at Every Performance. M'ME NINON DUCLO'S Famous and Original Troupe of Sensational BLONDES, Living art [sic] Pictures and Grand Specialty Combination.... 20 BEAUTIFUL BLONDES 20 in the Latest Parisian Sensation, La Minuet, The Performance to conclude with the mirth-provoking Burlesque of the SEVEN BEAUTIES or, THE DIZZY BLONDES.   [On Nov. 6, 1877, the same _Telegraph and Messenger_ editorialized sternly against the "shameful lasciviousness, indecency, and downright wickedness of that performance," and gave thanks that the "filthy creatures" had left town under pressure from the Y.M.C.A.]   1877 _Dubuque Herald_ (Nov. 27) 3:  The Y.M.C.A. of Louisville...stopped the performances of Mlle. Ninon de L'Enclos' [sic] troupe of dizzy blondes.    1878 _Fort Wayne Daily Sentinel_ (Jan. 5) 1: The movement on the "dizzy blonde" shows of Cincinnati was productive of discussion in the police board of that city Wednesday, as to the relative indecency of the waltz, as practiced in the "best society," and the can-can [as danced by dizzy blondes].   1878 _Wheeling Daily Register_ (Aug. 15) 4: Charles Benton, general agent of May Fisk's Dizzy Blonds [sic], is in the city billing his troupe for the Washington Hall for next Monday night.   Both NewspaperArchive.com and America's Historical Newspapers continue to report on "dizzy blondes," first with and later without reference to the pioneering terpsichoreans.   The phrase appears in lower case as early as   1878 _Milwaukee Daily Sentinel_ (quoting _N.Y. Herald_) (Feb. 13) 2: Miss Fairbanks is not a dizzy blonde.   The earliest explicitly "dumb blonde" I can discover was identified some years later:   1924 _Amarillo Globe_ (Nov. 28) 4: The gun...was given to me as a present by my dumb blonde with whom I'm keeping quite smart company. She is a true Texan.   "Dumb blonde" becomes common after about 1926. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 19:24:41 2008 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:24:41 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101530.mBABlJlX032549@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here's another potentially good quote to come out of this situation, said by Jesse Jackson Jr: "It is impossible for someone on my behalf to have a conversation that would suggest any type of quid pro quo or any payments or offers," Jackson told ABC News. *"An impossibility to an absolute certainty."* http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ConductUnbecoming/story?id=6431739&page=1 WS >> >> Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = >> such constraint. >> =20 >> Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = >> the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = >> its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = >> important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that = >> important. >> =20 >> G.=20 >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: >> >> >> On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >>> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >>> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >>> languae? >> >> I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about >> language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. >> >> What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by >> things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- >> occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. >> >> I say wait ten years and let's see. >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 19:29:38 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:29:38 EST Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training ... Message-ID: The case is interesting because, while the things he is quoted as saying are reprehensible, nothing in the quotes that have been brought forth to date that I have seen are in themselves illegal. That is, he is neither offering a bribe nor accepting one--he is merely saying that he would like to make money on the deal. Whether this is an indirect speech act of soliciting a bribe depends very much on the context--whom he was addressing being of paramount imporatance. Note that he keeps saying, "I did not say anything that broke the law." If all that is true, then the prosecution might be able to use this as evidence of his state of mind to corroborate other evidence. But I suspect that he will defend himself by saying that he was just venting his frustrations. In a message dated 12/10/08 3:05:01 AM, DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU writes: > There's a new post on the Web of Language: > > Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he  > mandated for all state employees? > > In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online  > ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for  > being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to  > put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in  > state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved – from the  > elected officials down to the mailroom clerks – understands what the  > rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." > > But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training  > himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to  > sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other  > acts of political corruption. According to  Patrick J. Fitzgerald,  > U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who  > convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while  > letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make  > Lincoln roll over in his grave." > > .... > > read the rest of this post on the Web of Language > > http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > Dennis Baron > Professor of English and Linguistics > Department of English > University of Illinois > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > > office: 217-244-0568 > fax: 217-333-4321 > > http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron > > read the Web of Language: > http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 19:42:03 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:42:03 -0500 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? Message-ID: Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" below? (And is it in the OED?) About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old 19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 21:22:00 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:22:00 -0500 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South Message-ID: I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been mispronouncing a very important term in that field. C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronouncing it! W. Really? Which one? C. "Di[p]thong." W. And how were you mispronouncing it? C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? C. "Di[p]thong"! W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? C. Right! W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not "di[p]thong," right? C. Exactly! W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. C. Okay. It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 21:13:03 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? In-Reply-To: <200812101942.mBAIGK7H032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" > below? (And is it in the OED?) > > About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which > caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote > >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old 19th-c. > >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' > > I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. > > A replied: > >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I always > >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows the > >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that was a ringer." > > So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in > _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will > achieve no answer"? Not in OED, but presumably an extension of the sense "An outsider or intruder; an imposter, spec. one who attaches himself to a political or other group to which he does not belong." Scattered usage for "ringer" = 'unanswerable question', 'trick question', or something similar: --- http://www.chicagolandmgclub.com/photos/MGrally07/ The forth bonus question was a ringer with no answer. --- http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080920182357AAxdZ3E Is it possible for a person to turn things around? Your question is probably a ringer, but I will pretend it is sincere. --- http://boards.chicagobears.com/forums/1/1251107/ShowThread.aspx That question was a "ringer" for us old farts (I'm 64). --- http://www.duke.edu/web/DRAGO/humor/gamer_if.html YOU MIGHT BE A GAMER IF... ..you've discovered that spare dice make good beanbag filler. ...you knew that that last question was a ringer: who has more dice than they can use? --- http://berniesayers.com/DowneIf.htm This question is a ringer. It's included in hopes that some enterprising newspaper or magazine reporter will step up... --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Wed Dec 10 21:46:25 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:46:25 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092107.mB9BnJeV028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>better known than dog[male] >>> >>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >> >> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >> cattle, though). > > Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? Cows, calves, bulls, and steers. Heifer, too, maybe, unless that's only a young dairy cow. > I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it > comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. Having had this experience all too recently, there is a big difference between "a cow got loose" and "a bull got loose." We're pretty clear with everyone who is on or visits the farm - *never* go into a pasture with a bull in it. Cows are another thing. I suppose I can say "one of the cows got loose," but the field is going to be full of mostly or all cows, anyway. > How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, > or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? No particular feeling, besides literary - I grew up on a dairy farm, only wild ducks and geese to be seen. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 21:51:43 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:51:43 -0500 Subject: more political language Message-ID: If you missed The Daily Show last night, there was an interesting debate between Jon Stewart and Mike Huckabee on the moral and legal aspects of same-sex marriage. The latter evidently holds semantic change as anathema on the level of abortion rights: see http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=213349&title=mike-huckabee-pt.-2 and especially the arguments starting around halfway through on why redefinition is intolerable. I'm sure Gov. Huckabee will be proud to assert that he is an eminently silly man (on the original definition, = 'holy, blessed'; cf. Ger. _selig_), although some might also see him as being nice (= 'stupid'; cf. Lat. _nescius_). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 22:12:22 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:12:22 -0500 Subject: Cupboard Food Message-ID: 'Just received this from our local 'freecyle' (freecycle.com) group: "I have 2 grocery bags of cupboard food; there are a lot of canned soups. . . " -- Google revealed a smallish bunch of 'cupboard food' hits, but most of them were for the likes of 'Shepherd's Cupboard Food Pantry', which really isn't saying, per se, _cupboard food_. -- This freecyle group is based in Binghamton NY. That tells us nothing the origin of the speaker. I though it a curious phrase -- the meaning of which is obvious; So it's curious mainly because I've never heard the phrase used before. dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 23:11:15 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:11:15 -0600 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South In-Reply-To: <200812102122.mBAHP1w2014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? I'm not sure which problem you are referring to, but I will say that most people in the field that I know go with "di[p]thong." Scot On 12/10/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of > about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the > course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our > respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of > the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler > (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. > > Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of > phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been > mispronouncing a very important term in that field. > > C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronouncing > it! > > W. Really? Which one? > > C. "Di[p]thong." > > W. And how were you mispronouncing it? > > C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." > > W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? > > C. "Di[p]thong"! > > W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should > be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? > > C. Right! > > W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using > that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not > "di[p]thong," right? > > C. Exactly! > > W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I > think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. > > C. Okay. > > It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I > *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." > > Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lisa.minnick at WMICH.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:43:21 2008 From: lisa.minnick at WMICH.EDU (Lisa Minnick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:43:21 -0500 Subject: "he" and "he or she" Message-ID: In response to A message dated 12/9/2008 12:09:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time: The Emoluments Clause provides that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule the Emoluments Clause does not apply to female U.S. Senators. Rosemarie wrote on 12/09/08: Much as I dislike Hillary, I can't imagine anyone will get away with trying to apply that logic. I learned in (approx.) 3rd grade that a generalized "he" should - be taken to mean "he or she." --- With all due respect to your third-grade teacher, over thirty years' worth of linguistic research indicates otherwise. First, what something supposedly "should be taken to mean" is often not at all how it is understood by hearers and readers. Second, generic 'he' is sexist and indefensible linguistically. Many academic and journalistic style guides now advise against its use. As demonstrated by Ann Bodine in 1975, generic 'he' and its promotion over the centuries represents in part an attempt to stigmatize the use of singular 'they' as a sex-indefinite, yet animate, third-person singular pronoun. (Bodine, "Androcentrism in prescriptive grammar: Singular 'they', sex-indefinite 'he', and 'he or she'," in Language in Society 4 and also anthologized in Deborah Cameron's recent collection, A Feminist Critique of Language.) Bodine cites a number of arguments made in favor of generic 'he' and the kind of sexist thinking that drove many of these arguments. For example: Poole (1646): "The Relative [pronoun] agrees with the Antecedent of the more worthy gender: as, the King and the Queen whom I honor. The Masculine gender is more worthy than the Feminine." Wilson (1560): "Let us kepe a natural order, and set the man before the woman for maners Sake." And "the worthier is preferred and set before. As a man is sette before a woman." Roberts (1967) considers the use of 'his or her' awkward and so advocates avoiding this "by following the convention that, grammatically, men are more important than women." Additionally, researchers have found that women and girls may feel excluded, and may in fact *be* excluded, by the use of (ostensibly) generic 'he' and 'man.' Spender (1980) catalogs some early work on this topic, including the following: Harrison, "Cro-Magnon Woman -- in Eclipse," in Science Teacher (April 1975) pp. 8-11. Schneider and Hacker, "Sex Role Imagery and the Use of Generic Man," in American Sociologist 8:1 (Feb 1973) pp. 12-18. Martyna, "Beyond the He/Man Approach: The Case for Language Change," Journal of Women in Culture and Society 5:3 (Spring 1980) pp. 482-93. Graham, "The Making of a Non-Sexist Dictionary," in Thorne and Henley (eds.), Language and Sex: Difference and Dominance (Newbury House, 1975). Graham documents numerous examples of pseudo-generic 'he' and 'man' (e.g. Erich Fromm remarks upon "[generic] man's vital interests," which he says include "life, food, access to females, etc."). In sum, there is a wide and deep body of research out there on generic 'he' and related topics. The early, groundbreaking research cited above will serve as a good introduction to these issues for anyone who is new to them and curious. Lisa -- Lisa Cohen Minnick Assistant Professor of English 923 Sprau Tower Western Michigan University Kalamazoo, Michigan 49008-5331 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 01:13:17 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:13:17 -0500 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South In-Reply-To: <200812102311.mBAMusEa014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The "problem" that I was referring to is that of being so fully persuaded that you and everyone else are using the pronunciation X that not only do you fail to notice, in casual speech, that everyone else is actually using the pronunciation Y, but you also fail to hear any distinction between your X and everyone else's Y, even when it's clearly pointed out to you. The situation has been a staple of sitcoms since radio days. And my point is that it's not just for sitcoms. It happens in real life. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? > > I'm not sure which problem you are referring to, but I will say that most > people in the field that I know go with > "di[p]thong." > > Scot > > > > On 12/10/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of >> about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the >> course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our >> respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of >> the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler >> (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. >> >> Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of >> phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been >> mispronouncing a very important term in that field. >> >> C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronounci= > ng >> it! >> >> W. Really? Which one? >> >> C. "Di[p]thong." >> >> W. And how were you mispronouncing it? >> >> C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." >> >> W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? >> >> C. "Di[p]thong"! >> >> W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should >> be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? >> >> C. Right! >> >> W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using >> that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not >> "di[p]thong," right? >> >> C. Exactly! >> >> W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I >> think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. >> >> C. Okay. >> >> It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I >> *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." >> >> Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? >> >> -Wilson >> =96=96=96 >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gww at OLEMISS.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:22:35 2008 From: gww at OLEMISS.EDU (Gerald Walton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:22:35 -0600 Subject: Store-Bought In-Reply-To: <200812062353.mB6BmaOB019813@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Got this today from somebody forwarding a list of "old phrases": Here's a phrase I heard all the time in my youth but never anymore - "store-bought." Of course, just about everything is store-bought these days. But once it was bragging material to have a store-bought dress or a store-bought bag of candy. gww ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From n2life4 at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 03:51:01 2008 From: n2life4 at GMAIL.COM (N2life4) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:51:01 -0700 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? Message-ID: One phrase I have heard is 'dead ringer' meaning that something - or someone - was exactly like the other one. "She was a "dead ringer" for Palin" (meaning Fey) In another example, a mistake is deliberately made to see if anyone is paying attention. A place where I once worked routinely put additional inexpensive items in a random customers order to test for #1 attention to details and #2 for honesty. The explantion was that they had "threw a ringer in to see if anyone would catch it. " J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old >19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I >always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows >the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that >was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 04:44:58 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:44:58 -0500 Subject: Store-Bought In-Reply-To: <200812110322.mBAIGKld032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As a matter of fact, I heard a guy on the Judge [Name] show say "store-boughten" just today. Unfortunately, I wasn't paying sufficient attention to be able to provide even the name of the program. I vaguely wondered whether the white male speaker had intended to say "store-bought" rather than "store-boughten" and then dismissed it from my mind. Had I but known that the word would come up here today! -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Walton > Subject: Store-Bought > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Got this today from somebody forwarding a list of "old phrases": > > > Here's a phrase I heard all the time in my youth but never anymore - > "store-bought." Of course, just about everything is store-bought > these days. But once it was bragging material to have a store-bought > dress or a store-bought bag of candy. > > > gww > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 05:41:13 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:41:13 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJsL032549@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Needless to say! The "Eastside" police seemed not to be able to find any of the black after-hours joints - Missouri rolled up its sidewalks at 1:30a.m., hence the local saying, "Into the flivver and across the river!" - that openly operated there, neon signs, ads in Saint Louis's black newspapers, and all, even back in the day when East Saint Louis, today 99.44% black, was white enough to maintain a public-school system as segregated as any in Missouri, despite Illinois state law, paying lip-service to said law by siphoning the top athletes and the top scholars from the black schools to East Saint Louis High and leaving the dregs to attend Lincoln High. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >>know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >>pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >>GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >>Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, > > Illinois was presumably corrupt then also? > >>I never knew the name of >>any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >>known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >>was. > > But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long stretches. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 11 15:06:23 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:06:23 -0800 Subject: a hog-backed molligrubber Message-ID: Dept. of 'Twas Ever Thus:   1880 Nat. Police Gaz. (Aug. 28) 2: It was on a Sound boat, and the mate was evidently annoyed about something. “Carry it forward,” he roared. “Carry it forward, you lunk-headed son of a sculpin, or I hope to be gee whizzley gaul dusted to jude if I don’t maul the dad slammed head off’n ye with a capstan bar, ye hog-backed molligrubber, ye!”  And the deck hand looked up in profound admiration and said, “By George, Cap, if I had your culcher I wouldn’t be a runnin’ as mate for no man in these waters; I’d be commandin’ a boat of my own.”   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 11 15:22:09 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:22:09 -0800 Subject: honest politicians Message-ID: The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. attributed to Simon Cameron but sometimes (though not lately) to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible?   1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, when he is once bought, stays bought.   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:26:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:26:25 -0800 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101730.mBAHP1Eu014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ... Though I grew up with only "substitute X for Y," I knew that > German > and other languages had something like "substitute Y with X," which > hung me up when I first came across it, since it required "reverse > interpretation," so to speak. Then, I started to see something similar > in English (in BrE first?), where, IMO at the time, it was an even > worse problem, since it really interferes with my automatic > understanding of English. encroached "substitute" -- "substitute OLD with/by NEW" -- has been around for quite some time, and i don't think it's particularly british. its virtue, as i explained in one of my old postings, is that it puts OLD before NEW (yes, i know, "replace OLD with/by NEW" also does this). if you attend to the prepositions, the meanings are clear. a true reversal occurs in "substitute OLD for NEW" -- reversed "substitute" -- which is both recently innovated and originally british (though it's been spreading to the u.s.). you'd think that this usage would be drastically confusing, but in context the intentions of the speaker or writer are almost always clear. (in fact, people detect occurrences of reversed "substitute" by divining the intentions of the speaker or writer and then realizing that the syntactic argumen'ts are, from their point of view, in the wrong order.) arnold > > > Now, having mastered my initially-negative emotional response - like, > it's about *dialects*, whether academic or rural, no? - I was just > kinda, sorta wondering how far people for whom this construction is > natural are willing to take this "innovation." > > Though I meant no harm, I apologize. (This is as close as I can come > to the hated, extremely-peeving, "*if* I've done anything that someone > may have been injured by," etc. That's *so* bleeping weasling! It's > makes it seem as though the problem is the injured party's fault for > being overly sensitive, even unmanly and not able to take it. Either > apologize for real or tell them to get stuffed.) > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Arnold Zwicky > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: substitution of X with Y >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." >>> >>> I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would >>> "... >>> substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be >>> grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for >>> 'call in >>> sick' ..."? >> >> we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled >> "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of >> mine from 10/26/04: >> >> using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, >> the original verb usages were: >> (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) >> (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) >> >> "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the >> proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): >> (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) >> >> ---- >> >> as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice >> discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). >> >> encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material >> from >> "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly >> be >> labeled as non-standard. >> >> to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in >> these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on >> ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being >> of interest. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:34:08 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:34:08 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE Message-ID: In The Yale Book of Quotations I cite Mark Twain's 1890-91 notebook for this. Thanks for finding earlier evidence! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: honest politicians The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. attributed to Simon Cameron but sometimes (though not lately) to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible? 1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, when he is once bought, stays bought. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:27:21 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:27:21 -0500 Subject: W=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres Message-ID: German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' (gathering of people over 30) http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 15:58:18 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:58:18 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101530.mBABlJmi014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, around these parts, it's pronounced "blahGOYyevich." Barbara Barbara Need Chicago On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't > know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to > pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah > GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in > Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of > any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always > known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County > was. > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = > > such constraint. > > =20 > > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = > > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = > > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = > > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that > = > > important. > > =20 > > G.=20 > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > > >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > >> languae? > > > > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about > > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. > > > > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by > > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- > > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. > > > > I say wait ten years and let's see. > > > > Grant Barrett > > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = > > =20 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 15:59:17 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111537.mBBBrs5W009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:27:21 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' > http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html > > German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' > (gathering of people over 30) > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html > > Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) > http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html Ah, you got there faster. 'Lebensmensch' is IMHO the most interesting of the three, by far. In particular it is not always used in a romantic sense, and not always in a gay sense. After the extreme right-wing politician Joerg Haider died in a car accident, his political successor Stefan Petzner referred to him as his Lebensmensch. However, the press also uses the word for Haider's widow, and even mother. Meanwhile in the German press, we find Lebensmensch succeeding somewhat 'Lebensabschnittspartner' (life-segment partner), which was the somewhat jocular term my generation, in our 20s, might have used to refer to our lovers (presuming a live-in arrangement). 'Lebensmench' also gets around the gender-neutrality problem for a life partner of intentionally indeterminate gender: Of course 'Lebenspartner' (life partner) is perfectly possible and common in German, but it can only apply to men. As a woman, I can be a Mensch (human being) but not a Partner -- I'd be a Partnerin. Even though both 'Mensch' and 'Partner' are both masculine nouns, their gendered status is different. The Austrian ones are in fact spectacularly good this time round. The second place was taken by 'Krocha', a Viennese dialect youth slang term the meaning of which is best conveyed via an illustration: http://bureau.comandantina.com/archivos/2008/03/krocha.php . In the third place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). We're still awaiting the Unwort of the year. Cheers, Chris who doesn't think 'Gammelfleischparty' is new or particularly relevant right now ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 15:59:36 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:59:36 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJAu032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Still is. Barbara Barbara Need Chicago On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I've always > >known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County > >was. > > But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long > stretches. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 16:05:08 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:05:08 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:58 AM -0600 12/11/08, Barbara Need wrote: >Well, around these parts, it's pronounced "blahGOYyevich." > >Barbara > With stress on the "GOY". (Corrupt Jewish politicians like to think of themselves as not quite so dumb.) LH >On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >> know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >> pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >> GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >> Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of >> any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >> known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >> was. >> >> -Wilson >> --- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = >> > such constraint. >> > =20 >> > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = >> > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = >> > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = >> > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that >> = >> > important. >> > =20 >> > G.=20 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: >> > >> > >> > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> > >> >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >> >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >> >> languae? >> > >> > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about >> > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. >> > >> > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by >> > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- >> > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. >> > >> > I say wait ten years and let's see. >> > >> > Grant Barrett >> > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = >> > =20 >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 16:16:45 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:16:45 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111559.mBBBlLQN018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, Chris Waigl wrote: > [stuff riddled with bad spelling and missing words snipped] Um, sorry. I'm blaming a head cold. You'll know what I meant. Best, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 11 17:06:15 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500 Subject: W=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <49ab318f3b3e6fc429dbe7aa9f844710@lascribe.net> Message-ID: At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >In the third >place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for the German.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 18:48:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:48:08 -0800 Subject: today's (bilingual) holiday pun Message-ID: e-mail from the Lands' End folks, withe the subject line: Fleece Navidad! FREE SHIPPING & 20% off fleece, boots ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 18:51:21 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:51:21 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111706.mBBBlLZf018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >>In the third >>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). > > Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this > agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for > the German.) OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. The term was coined some time in September 2008 by the leader of the Austrian Green Party, Alexander Van der Bellen. This was shortly before the 2008 parliamentary election. The election had become necessary because the ÖVP (classic large right-wing party) decided to leave the ruling coalition it was in partnering with the SPÖ (classic large social-democrat party, Austrian style). This coalition ("red-black") had become quite unpopular as well. So Austria went into an election with, it turned out, 5 parties that would get over 10% of the vote, and no clear suggestions who would be forming a stable government, at least not one including the SPÖ (which had been and would become again the largest group in the national council). These 5 parties range from extreme-right (BZÖ) via hard-right (FPÖ), right (ÖVP) and left (SPÖ) to left-Green (Green Party, no abbreviation). Shortly before the election, in a move that was widely perceived as populist, and on the background of widespread exasperation with the political squabbling and lack of actual, solid and effective policy suggestion, the SPÖ minority government made public its plan to abolish VAT on food, but with a list of precisely 12 'luxury foodstuffs' that would be excluded from the tax exemption: Kaviar * Langusten (langoustes) * gestopfte Leber (foie gras) * Hummer (lobster) * Safran (saffron) * Trüffel (truffles) * Wachteleier (quail eggs) <----------- ! * Schnecken (snails) * Austern (oysters) * Strausseneier (ostrich eggs) * Krabben (crabs) * Garnelen (shrimp) This was widely ridiculed -- and other luxury food items were cited all over the Austrian blogosphere (Kobe beef, moose cheese...), which would under the proposal be exempt. The ridicule reached its peak when the FPÖ, perceived as an impossible coalition partner for the SPÖ, made it known they were agreeing with this proposal. Van der Bellen's bon mot therefore refers to an understanding between two unlikely political partners based on their common take on how to tax quail eggs. Phew. Chris Waigl PS: Austria, predictably, went back to an SPÖ/ÖVP coalition after the election. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Thu Dec 11 18:52:15 2008 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:52:15 -0200 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? In-Reply-To: <200812110347.mBAMusSe014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At the monastery the bell ringer dies. The abbot puts an ad in the paper for a bell ringer. Next day, one candidate shows up and asks to see the abbot. Abbot looks at him and says, "But you have no arms. How do you ring the bell?" Candidate says, "I'll show you". They go up to the bell tower. The candidate starts running toward the bell and smashes into it with his face. The most beautiful tones ever heard emanate from the bell and the abbot hires him on the spot. Over the next few weeks the people of the parish are treated to the most beautiful bell music they have ever heard. Then, one day, the bell ringer runs toward the bell, misses, and goes flying over the buttresses into the square below. A crowd gathers. A woman says, "Who is that?" A man in the crowd says, "I don't know, but his face sure rings a bell." So the monastery needs another bell ringer and the abbot puts another ad in the paper. The next day, an armless man shows up who looks just like the deceased. The abbot, aghast, says, "But, but... how?" "Ah, says the new candidate. Your former bell ringer was my twin brother and we have the same talent. So the abbot hires him and, once again, the people of the parish are treated to the most beautiful bell music ever. Then, one day, the new bell ringer runs toward the bell, misses, and goes flying over the buttresses into the square below. A crowd gathers. A woman says, "Who is that?" A man in the crowd says, "I don't know, but he's a dead ringer for the other guy." ______________________________________________ The man who always waves the flag often waives what it stands for. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of N2life4 Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU One phrase I have heard is 'dead ringer' meaning that something - or someone - was exactly like the other one. "She was a "dead ringer" for Palin" (meaning Fey) In another example, a mistake is deliberately made to see if anyone is paying attention. A place where I once worked routinely put additional inexpensive items in a random customers order to test for #1 attention to details and #2 for honesty. The explantion was that they had "threw a ringer in to see if anyone would catch it. " J Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" below? (And is it in the OED?) About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old >19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I >always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows >the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that >was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 18:56:10 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:56:10 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111851.mBBBrsRK009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah I should have know ADS-L can't deal with utf-8 non-ascii. For à read O-umlaut. Chris On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:51:21 -0500, Chris Waigl wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" > wrote: >> >> At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >>>In the third >>>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). >> >> Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this >> agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for >> the German.) > > OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. > snip ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:22:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:22:53 -0800 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log Message-ID: AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:22:33 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:22:33 -0500 Subject: today's (bilingual) holiday pun In-Reply-To: <76D29BFB-18E7-4071-B79E-15ABE45228A3@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:48 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >e-mail from the Lands' End folks, withe the subject line: > > Fleece Navidad! FREE SHIPPING & 20% off fleece, boots Hey, that e-mail sent me right to their web site this morning, and I'll probably end up ordering one. Who says clever advertising doesn't work? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:43:16 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:43:16 -0500 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:22 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Actually, it's http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/; the LL post above is the one from last summer that discusses the noun-noun compounds that you can link to when reading about those bulgogi virgins and others. It's all good. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 11 19:55:15 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:55:15 -0500 Subject: W=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <7d781708f7c3dd2c421d74ed7a426bbd@lascribe.net> Message-ID: Lovely! And I read it all! The luxury tax sounds like something out of 18th-century New England Puritan jeremiads, only those would more likely have been aimed at luxurious clothes. And in early New England lobster was so common it was fed to gaol prisoners. By the way, ADS-L can handle the common (West European) accents, if one uses (is given?) Latin-1 encoding. See my Subject line (and add an apology for using ä previously -- I was so concentrating on getting the umlaut that I mistyped the letter!). Joel At 12/11/2008 01:51 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" >wrote: > > > > At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: > >>In the third > >>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). > > > > Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this > > agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for > > the German.) > >OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. > >The term was coined some time in September 2008 by the leader of the >Austrian Green Party, Alexander Van der Bellen. This was shortly before the >2008 parliamentary election. The election had become necessary because the >ÖVP (classic large right-wing party) decided to leave the ruling coalition >it was in partnering with the SPÖ (classic large social-democrat party, >Austrian style). This coalition ("red-black") had become quite unpopular as >well. So Austria went into an election with, it turned out, 5 parties that >would get over 10% of the vote, and no clear suggestions who would be >forming a stable government, at least not one including the SPÖ (which had >been and would become again the largest group in the national council). >These 5 parties range from extreme-right (BZÖ) via hard-right (FPÖ), >right (ÖVP) and left (SPÖ) to left-Green (Green Party, no abbreviation). >Shortly before the election, in a move that was widely perceived as >populist, and on the background of widespread exasperation with the >political squabbling and lack of actual, solid and effective policy >suggestion, the SPÖ minority government made public its plan to abolish >VAT on food, but with a list of precisely 12 'luxury foodstuffs' that would >be excluded from the tax exemption: Kaviar > >* Langusten (langoustes) >* gestopfte Leber (foie gras) >* Hummer (lobster) >* Safran (saffron) >* Trüffel (truffles) >* Wachteleier (quail eggs) <----------- ! >* Schnecken (snails) >* Austern (oysters) >* Strausseneier (ostrich eggs) >* Krabben (crabs) >* Garnelen (shrimp) > >This was widely ridiculed -- and other luxury food items were cited all >over the Austrian blogosphere (Kobe beef, moose cheese...), which would >under the proposal be exempt. The ridicule reached its peak when the FPÖ, >perceived as an impossible coalition partner for the SPÖ, made it known >they were agreeing with this proposal. Van der Bellen's bon mot therefore >refers to an understanding between two unlikely political partners based on >their common take on how to tax quail eggs. > >Phew. > >Chris Waigl > >PS: Austria, predictably, went back to an SPÖ/ÖVP coalition after the >election. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:09:32 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:09:32 -0800 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log In-Reply-To: <200812111943.mBBBrsUu009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: ADS-L on Language Log > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 11:22 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Actually, it's http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/; the LL post > above is the one from last summer that discusses the noun-noun > compounds that you can link to when reading about those bulgogi > virgins and others. It's all good. ack. i copied the wrong URI. should be: AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=902 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:40:57 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: progressista (NYT, 1872) Message-ID: >From Gawker: http://gawker.com/5107770/trend+seeking-new-york-times-was-adding-+ista-to-words-130-years-ago "Progressista" was evidently inspired by "progresista", referring to a member of Spain's Progressive Party in the mid-19th century. Not sure where Gawker got the idea that "recessionista" is a NYT coinage. Safire and others have said it was coined by economist Larry Kudlow in 2007, though WordSpy has a citation in an earlier sense from 2001: http://www.wordspy.com/words/recessionista.asp --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 00:39:34 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:39:34 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812111535.mBBBlLgO008829@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Older still . . . _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, 1866; pg. 3; col A "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is bought, stays bought." " I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:34 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: TWAIN QUOTE > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: TWAIN QUOTE > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > In The Yale Book of Quotations I cite Mark Twain's 1890-91 > notebook for this. Thanks for finding earlier evidence! > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:22 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: honest politicians > > The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. > attributed to Simon Cameron but sometimes (though not lately) > to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible? > > 1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a > distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, > when he is once bought, stays bought. > > JL > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 00:54:13 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:54:13 -0500 Subject: antedate: vog (volcanic smog), 1991 Message-ID: My sister, a medical transcriptionist, encountered the word "vog", a portmanteau of "volcanic smog", and sent it to me. It's not in OED or M-W. "vog volcan*", without quotes, gets about 50k raw ghits. It shows up once in the archives -- posted, not surprisingly, by the inexhaustible Barry Popik: >>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002C&L=ADS-L&P=R2568&I=-3 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:06:44 EST Subject: Coinages (part ten) I think it's part ten. This continues a series of checking the word "coined" on computer databases. These may or may not be correct. This is from Readers' Guide Abstracts 1983-2000, which yielded 224 hits. 6 May 1995, SCIENCE, pp. 285-6--Hawaiians have coined the name vog, for volcanic smog, to describe the problem. <<< This poster presentation -- http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/MET/Faculty/businger/poster/vog/ Concentration and dispersion modeling of the Kilauea plume -- cites a 1991 use -- >>> Morrow, J.W. (1991c): Volcanic effects on the elemental composition of inhalable particulates in Hilo and Captain Cook. Vog and Laze Seminar, Hilo, Hawaii. <<< -- which is listed in the Hawaiian Collection Acquisitions List (Jan.-June 1996) of the University of Hawai`i: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~speccoll/hawaiiacq696n.html >>> University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, Hawaii: [The Center; 991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. <<< http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Volcanic_gases.html has definitions of "vog" and "laze" (< "lava" + "haze"). The search also turned up this cute URL, for "Important Information about VOG" (Office of the Governor, State of Hawai`i): http://hawaii.gov/gov/vog Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 01:07:39 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:07:39 -0500 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812101804.mBABlJlN032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This looks like a new case of V + up 'create or summon by V-ing'. Cf. "conjure up", "work up" (a proposal, etc.), "make up" (a story, etc.). Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: > > Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile > parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to > the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I > asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John > asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." > GWW > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 01:10:49 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:10:49 -0500 Subject: antedate: vog (volcanic smog), 1991 In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812111654k734b8b6fk790b6d98a6e27f0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, > Hawaii: [The Center; 991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. Oops, copy-and-paste error (I dropped a "1"). That should be University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, Hawaii: [The Center; 1991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 01:19:13 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:19:13 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120048.mBBLu3PP018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, > 1866; pg. 3; col A > > "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] > " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is > bought, stays bought." " > > I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 Proquest Doc ID 83458476 Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by ProQuest as "...Corraption") Also here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 04:37:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:37:30 -0500 Subject: eggcorn alert: forgiving those who trustpass against us Message-ID: I just came across an instance of "trust passing" and found a bunch more by googling e.g. "no trustpassing", "arrested for trust passing" or vandalism + "trust passing" to eliminate the false positives that actually refer to a trust passing to the next generation and so on. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 12 11:08:34 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:08:34 -0500 Subject: More re: fleece Message-ID: Land's End is really pushing their fleece collection--earlier in the fall they had a campaign saying Give fleece a chance. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Dec 12 13:16:00 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:16:00 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: >> >> _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, >> 1866; pg. 3; col A >> >> "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] >> " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is >> bought, stays bought." " >> >> I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 > Proquest Doc ID 83458476 > Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by > ProQuest as "...Corraption") > Also here: > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE > > > --Ben Zimmer FWIW, a somewhat-related use from 1838, The Extra Globe, Containing Political Discussions, Documentary Proofs &C. v. 4, Washington p240 The article speaks of Mr. Bond, an attorney for a branch of the Bank of the United States, who together with his "ragocratic coadjutors" assume one belongs to a department "body and soul." He "rendered little service and necessarily considered himself 'bought up, bought up'--and that was not all. Lawyer as he is, he stays bought up ? simply because he thinks his interest would not justify a voluntary change; or, rather, because no one but the Bank ever thought him worth buying." http://books.google.com/books?id=lgIbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240&dq=%22stays+bought%22+date:0-1838&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA240,M1 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 15:20:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:20:52 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... Message-ID: Judge David Young: "And now you two have parted, have separated from each other? Thirty-ish black female speaker: "Aw, we _BIN done did_ that, your honor!" -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:11:51 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:11:51 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... In-Reply-To: <200812121520.mBCBsSJD011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I forgot to add that the couple is from Saint Louis, as evidenced by: Patrernity-test laboratory representative: [Name], with scientific certainty, is _not_ the father of child1. [Name], with scientific certainty, is _not_ the father of child2. [Name], a thirtyish, black male speaker: "Aw, man! That's cold-blooded, right thurr [D^r]! I've been aware of the pronunciation of /-&r/ as [-^r] since ca.1990, when I heard it used by black St. Louisans on various trash-TV reality shows. That is to say, though I grew up in Saint Louis, I haven't lived there since 1962. Hence, I have no idea when this shift began. Saint Louis-born rapper, Howard Bailey, Jr., in had a hit in 2003 with his song, _Right Thurr_, under his nom de rap, "Chingy.". -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judge David Young: > > "And now you two have parted, have separated from each other? > > Thirty-ish black female speaker: > > "Aw, we _BIN done did_ that, your honor!" > > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:06:08 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:06:08 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120129.mBBBrsra009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: >> >> _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, >> 1866; pg. 3; col A >> >> "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] >> " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is >> bought, stays bought." " >> >> I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 > Proquest Doc ID 83458476 > Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by > ProQuest as "...Corraption") > Also here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE Barry Popik has posted an entry on his site: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/honest_politician_when_bought_stays_bought/ He's got the 1866 cite as well as an earlier, though less canonical, example from the Times: ---- 5 December 1865, New York (NY) Times, pg. 4: FRIENDS IN NEED.—HECKER'S radical organs began to hedge yesterday. His morning organ, leaving HECKER out of account, proceeded to adjure the electors to vote for the man they thought most likely to render faithful service to the city. The evening Hecker organ occupied itself with a defence of Mr. ROBERTS against the aspersions cast on hischaracter by Copperheads, and closed with the announcement that "the best experts predict confidently the election of Roberts." This, we supposed, is what may be called backing one's friends. POOR HECKER! Doubtless, he pays enough for friendship. But the trouble apparently is that his friends wont stay bought. He will go to bed to-night a wiser, if not a happier man. ---- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:35:24 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:35:24 -0500 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812120107.mBBIiJ3p008828@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Speak of the devil and he shall appear," to coin a phrase. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Talk You Up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This looks like a new case of V + up 'create or summon by V-ing'. > Cf. "conjure up", "work up" (a proposal, etc.), "make up" (a story, etc.). > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: >> >> Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile >> parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to >> the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I >> asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John >> asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." >> GWW >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 16:35:41 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:35:41 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120129.mBBLu3St018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Note that the article also antedates "sugaring" = "bribing"; OED has 1891. OED has "the needful" and "stuff" in the sense of money, but not with the specific sense of a bribe. OED has "swag" as the sense of ill-gotten money, but again, not specifically as a bribe. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:19 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: > > > > _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, > October 17, > > 1866; pg. 3; col A > > > > "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author > > cited] " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, > > when he is bought, stays bought." " > > > > I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 Proquest Doc ID > 83458476 Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" > (misspelled by ProQuest as "...Corraption") Also here: > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53 BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:46:08 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:46:08 -0500 Subject: More re: fleece In-Reply-To: <31614903.2331229080114184.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 6:08 AM -0500 12/12/08, Geoff Nathan wrote: >Land's End is really pushing their fleece collection--earlier in the >fall they had a campaign saying > > Give fleece a chance. > > > >Geoff They could see if Blagojevich would be interested in being a spokesman; he knows from fleece and probably doesn't have too many other career options at the moment. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 16:58:49 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:58:49 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121616.mBCBsSQf011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another non-canonical cite: "Buying up Pennsylvanians." New York Daily Times (1851-1857); Sep 29, 1856; pg. 4 col 3. "If they are to be bought up so cheaply they will not stay bought long enough, we imagine, to do any good to their purchasers." > Barry Popik has posted an entry on his site: > > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/honest > _politician_when_bought_stays_bought/ > > He's got the 1866 cite as well as an earlier, though less > canonical, example from the Times: > > ---- > 5 December 1865, New York (NY) Times, pg. 4: > FRIENDS IN NEED.-HECKER'S radical organs began to hedge > yesterday. His morning organ, leaving HECKER out of account, > proceeded to adjure the electors to vote for the man they > thought most likely to render faithful service to the city. > The evening Hecker organ occupied itself with a defence of > Mr. ROBERTS against the aspersions cast on hischaracter by > Copperheads, and closed with the announcement that "the best > experts predict confidently the election of Roberts." This, > we supposed, is what may be called backing one's friends. POOR HECKER! > Doubtless, he pays enough for friendship. But the trouble > apparently is that his friends wont stay bought. He will go > to bed to-night a wiser, if not a happier man. > ---- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Fri Dec 12 17:05:50 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:05:50 -0500 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 Message-ID: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 are here http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/08words.htm . It's as usual a top-ten list based on web searches. 1. bailout and 2-10: socialism maverick bipartisan trepidation precipice rogue misogyny turmoil Not bad, as a list of themes for 2008 in the US. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 17:09:23 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:09:23 -0600 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121636.mBCBsSVr011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html In the second link, editor John Simpson says: "What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 12 17:37:26 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:37:26 -0500 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED72F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 12/12/2008 12:09 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > >The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. >http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html >http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html > >In the second link, editor John Simpson says: > >"What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails >to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 >screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " > >He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' >worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) He has to put it into writing before he can put it into the OED. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 17:48:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:48:18 -0500 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812121705.mBCBlHIr013284@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > > Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 are here > http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/08words.htm . It's as usual a top-ten > list based on web searches. "As usual" except for 2006 and 2007, when it was determined by an online vote. In 2006 the selection was open to any candidates, resulting in the Colbert Nation swamping the voting with "truthiness". In 2007 they let people pick from 20 finalists, including some non-dictionary items from M-W's Open Dictionary project, and that resulted in "w00t" being selected. Evidently they're now done with their experiments in lexico-democracy. > 1. bailout > > and 2-10: > > socialism > maverick > bipartisan > trepidation > precipice > rogue > misogyny > turmoil > > Not bad, as a list of themes for 2008 in the US. > > Chris Waigl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 19:14:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121709.mBCBp06J013526@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I prefer "screen's worth," too. But, WTF, I can see regarding "screensworth" as being like "spoonful." "Different strokes," etc., to coin a phrase. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. > http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html > http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html > > In the second link, editor John Simpson says: > > "What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails > to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 > screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " > > He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' > worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 12 20:09:13 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:09:13 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 02:04, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: > > "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just > not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and > I can always use it. I can parachute me there." I still don't know if it has legs, but the "bleeping" from it has made an place of small size: http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/the-bleepin-ascendancy/ Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 13 13:27:09 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:27:09 +0000 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812121758.mBCBsScx011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 12 Dec 2008, at 17:48, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > > "As usual" except for 2006 and 2007, when it was determined by an > online vote. In 2006 the selection was open to any candidates, > resulting in the Colbert Nation swamping the voting with "truthiness". > In 2007 they let people pick from 20 finalists, including some > non-dictionary items from M-W's Open Dictionary project, and that > resulted in "w00t" being selected. Evidently they're now done with > their experiments in lexico-democracy. Thanks for he correction. The experiments must have escaped me. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 13:47:54 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:47:54 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" Message-ID: I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better dead than Red." Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 13 19:58:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:58:36 -0500 Subject: StL BE [D^r] : non-sE [Dar] :: "clerk" [kl^rk] : "Cl[a]rk" [klark]? [NT] Message-ID: [NT] ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 23:53:27 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:53:27 -0500 Subject: WOTY candidate for most outrageous category? Message-ID: ABC network news tonight had a segment on the "hot new trend" called _sexting_. 92K google hits, including these write-ups: http://www.switched.com/2008/12/10/sexting-from-your-cell-phone-is-hot-new-flirting-trend-study/ http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0508/520195.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 14 08:18:05 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:18:05 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 13:46:27 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:46:27 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" Message-ID: I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. And the date is correct. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shapiro, Fred" To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" >I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >dead than Red." > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 14 13:56:36 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:56:36 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <200812140828.mBDC8B3w012623@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My apologies for the formatting problems with the post. My mail program reverts to HTML automatically when there is any formatting and I did not try to prevent it. Since some of the messages appear to come through formatted, I simply failed to anticipate the problem. (I left the quote commands in the text to identify quoted text.) Below is the stripped version. I also wanted to add that there is also an attempt to explain "filet americain" on Yahoo Answers. There are two relevant comments in this amateur etymology. One suggests something that I had assumed--FA is a finer grind than ST and has flavoring agents added prior to packaging. Two others are variants on standard urban legends--one that Americans are such carnivores that they will eat any kind of meat and the other claims cites a popular site that claims that origins of ST are Russian, post-Mongol-invasion. Best I can tell, both are demonstrably false. Victor wrote: Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography:
In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs "Finnish meatballs". It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a Greek fellow about my description of a particular beverage as Turkish coffee. He was quite certain that it was *Greek coffee*, thank you very much.
Another item this brings to mind for me is "filet americain" in the Netherlands ("americaine" in Belgium, apparently). For example
The one I liked was *filet americaine* in Belgium. Turned out to be raw hamburger with some onions and other stuff on it, spread on a baguette. Then there was *sauce americaine* as one of the six million things to put on french fries, and that was basically a ketchup/mayo mix.
From what I understood from Dutch food labels, this is not quite correct. "Filet americain(e)" certainly contains raw ground beef, but if that were all it had (with some condiments on the side), it would have been labeled "steak tartare" (not to be confused with "bief tartaar", which is just high quality ground beef, often packaged in small hamburger-style discs, but meant for cooking). Steak tartare, however, is labeled as such in Dutch supermarkets. The difference between "steak tartare" and "filet americain natuur" escapes me. For Dutch speakers, there is a whole Dutch Wiki page (and a second one that clarifies it further). But I digress. The point is that, despite the name and like the English-language term "French fries", there is no apparent connection between the geographic identification in the food term and the food's actual geographic origins. This is slightly different from "Swedish meatballs" and "Greek coffee". And the significance of the "tartare" (or "tartar" or "tartaar") does not escape me in this context. The closest thing that I know to "steak tartar" is kibbeh (multiple spellings), which is a mix of beef and bulgur that is often eaten raw (with onions) when fresh (but is usually fried after that--commercially available kibbeh is always fried, as is the Israeli version, kubebbah). I wonder if anyone ever tried to compile a comprehensive list of such food misnomers. The blog post mentioned earlier that had sprung the "filet americaine" comment mentioned Swiss cheese, French toast and English muffins--prompted by a discovery of a product referred to as "American muffins" in England. There is also a (justifiable) rant concerning cafe americano as an abominable Starbucks creation. This is not quite accurate--at least, not with respect to Starbucks coining the term. One urban legend has it that the name was coined because diluting espresso with water was the only way to make normal coffee palatable to American tourists. But I have no hard evidence on the subject. So, I actually have two distinct long-term queries. First, a general one, concerning food items (in any language, but English is a good start) that are named geographically without any regard to the actual geographic origin (so Greek coffee would not qualify simply because it is also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama hat because it's not food). Second, I would like to compile a list of items that are known as "American" in other parts of the world (although not always in other languages). I suppose, in this case, American cheese does not qualify (and not simply because it is not really cheese). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 14:57:10 2008 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:57:10 EST Subject: Vocabula: Free to New Readers Message-ID: Vocabula: Free to New Readers It is the season to give. >From now until December 25, The Vocabula Review will be free -- for one year -- to new readers. The Vocabula Review is a $40 value. If you enjoy words and the English language, Vocabula is indispensable. It's also a wonderful holiday gift -- you might give it to your friends and colleagues who take pleasure in writing well and speaking carefully, or who are disheartened by those who do not. Sign up and you'll have online access to twelve monthly issues of the highly regarded Vocabula Review, as well as to more than 100 back issues. To receive your yearlong subscription to the online Vocabula Review, simply fill in the _http://www.vocabula.com/site/register.asp_ (http://www.vocabula.com/site/register.asp) The Registration Key is: freeforall This offer is for people who have never before subscribed to The Vocabula Review. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review _www.vocabula.com_ (http://www.vocabula.com/) Vocabula Books: _www.vocabulabooks.com_ (http://www.vocabulabooks.com/) ____________________________________ _Vocabula Communications Company_ (http://www.vocabula.com/VCC.asp) (http://www.vocabulabooks.com/) **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?o ptin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 15:06:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:06:50 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <4944C13D.6040206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:18 AM -0500 12/14/08, Victor wrote: >So, I actually have two distinct long-term >queries. First, a general one, concerning food >items (in any language, but English is a good >start) that are named geographically without any >regard to the actual geographic origin (so Greek >coffee would not qualify simply because it is >also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama >hat because it's not food). Second, I would like >to compile a list of items that are known as >"American" in other parts of the world (although >not always in other languages). I suppose, in >this case, American cheese does not qualify (and >not simply because it is not really cheese). > >VS-) On the second query: one of the enduring puzzles is the origin of preparations "à l'américaine", in particular homard (lobster) à l'américaine. Recipes differ, but usually include olive oil, onions, wine, sometimes tomatoes, and typically cognac, none of which strikes one as particularly American (as has often been noted). Some claim the label is a "corruption" of the also existing style "à l'armoricaine", which in turn has been associated (dubiously, I think) with the Breton "ar mor" ('the sea'). To be sure, the preparation does seem more evocative of Brittany than, say, New Jersey, but this still seems pretty etymythological to me. That still leaves open the question of where "à l'américaine" comes from. (10,400 raw g-hits for "homard à l'américaine" alone.) No ketchup or mayo in sight, anyway! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 15:48:36 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:48:36 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <4944C13D.6040206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12/14/2008 03:18 AM, Victor wrote: >Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography: > > > >In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs "Finnish meatballs." If they're appetizingly prepared, then in Finland the Swedish meatballs are called Finnish. >It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a Greek >fellow about my description of a particular beverage as "Turkish >coffee." He was quite certain that it was Greek coffee, thank you very much. Since coffee made that way can be quite good -- or at least appealing to Greek fellows, therefore it must be Greek coffee. Now with the inhabitants' diseases, on the other hand ... (see the French -- or it it the English? -- disease). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 15:52:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:52:06 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <2CC4B0AA3D7643D3864AF273AA920750@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 12/14/2008 08:46 AM, Sam Clements wrote: >I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better >dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an >Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen >Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. Also at the Harvard Depository. Joel >And the date is >correct. > >Sam Clements > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Shapiro, Fred" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 >Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" > > >>I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >>dead than Red." >> >>Fred Shapiro >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 14 16:04:27 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:04:27 -0500 Subject: F-Word update: Want to help? Message-ID: As many of you know, I am working on a new edition of _The F-Word_, with publication planned for the fall of 2009. This edition will be substantially larger and more thorough than the last; I've currently added over seventy new words and senses, and the size of the text has increased by 40%, and I'm nowhere near done. Previously I had posted to ADS-L lists of words I was interested in. This time, however, I have decided to post the entire text online; in some cases there are notes indicating things that I'm looking for. If you are _seriously_ interested in helping, please e-mail me and I will send you the link and password for the text. Anyone who helps will of course be thanked in the frontmatter (if you want to be) and will receive my gratitude. If you are merely curious, please don't ask for the link. Thanks very much. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 14 16:44:24 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:44:24 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <2CC4B0AA3D7643D3864AF273AA920750@DFV45181> Message-ID: Google Books claims (accurately or not) That v.3 pt. 2 [which would beJuly-Dec] 1960 p.57 snippet has: "Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red") ? is the infamous watchword of the hirelings of reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies of the ... Germany Divided: The Legacy of the Nazi Era By Terence Prittie 1960 p.14 In May 1959... But he admitted that he himself would "sooner be dead than red." Kurt Schumacher , the first postwar leader of the West German Social Democratic Party, ... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Quoting Sam Clements : > I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better > dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an > Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen > Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. And the date is > correct. > > Sam Clements > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shapiro, Fred" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 > Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" > > >> I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >> dead than Red." >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 17:10:32 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:10:32 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <200812140828.mBDC8B3w012623@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another reversal of this sort occurs with the scourge known in America as "Dutch elm disease," but as "American elm disease" in Holland, on the grounds that it afflicts American elms. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~ On Dec 14, 2008, at 3:18 AM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: Finnish meatballs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography:
>
>
<http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/12/finland_fact_of_the_day.php> > ;
>
>

In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs “Finnish > meatballs.”

>

It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a > Greek > fellow about my description of a particular beverage as “Turkish > coffee.” He was quite certain that it was Greek > coffee, thank > you very much.

>
> Another item this brings to mind for me is "filet americain" in the > Netherlands ("americaine" in Belgium, apparently). For example,
>
> <http://www.radiofreemike.com/2006/05/blogging- > britain.html>
>
The one I liked was filet americaine in Belgium. > Turned out to be raw hamburger with some onions and other stuff on it, > spread on a baguette. Then there was sauce americaine as one > of the six million things to put on french fries, and that was > basically a ketchup/mayo mix.
>
> From what I understood from Dutch food labels, this is not quite > correct. "Filet americain(e)" certainly contains raw ground beef, but > if that were all it had (with some condiments on the side), it would > have been labeled "steak tartare" (not to be confused with "bief > tartaar", which is just high quality ground beef, often packaged in > small hamburger-style discs, but meant for cooking). Steak tartare, > however, is labeled as such in Dutch supermarkets. The difference > between "steak tartare" and "filet americain natuur" escapes me.
>
> For Dutch speakers, there is a whole Dutch Wiki page (and a second one > that clarifies it further).
>
> <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filet_am%C3%A9ricain>
>
> <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaar>
>
> But I digress. The point is that, despite the name and like the > English-language term "French fries", there is no apparent connection > between the geographic identification in the food term and the food's > actual geographic origins. This is slightly different from "Swedish > meatballs" and "Greek coffee". And the significance of the "tartare" > (or "tartar" or "tartaar") does not escape me in this context. The > closest thing that I know to "steak tartar" is kibbeh (multiple > spellings), which is a mix of beef and bulgur that is often eaten raw > (with onions) when fresh (but is usually fried after that-- > commercially > available kibbeh is always fried, as is the Israeli version, > kubebbah). >
>
> I wonder if anyone ever tried to compile a comprehensive list of such > food misnomers. The blog post mentioned earlier that had sprung the > "filet americaine" comment mentioned Swiss cheese, French toast and > English muffins--prompted by a discovery of a product referred to as > "American muffins" in England. There is also a (justifiable) rant > concerning cafe americano as an abominable Starbucks creation. This is > not quite accurate--at least, not with respect to Starbucks coining > the > term. One urban legend has it that the name was coined because > diluting > espresso with water was the only way to make normal coffee palatable > to > American tourists. But I have no hard evidence on the subject.
>
> So, I actually have two distinct long-term queries. First, a general > one, concerning food items (in any language, but English is a good > start) that are named geographically without any regard to the actual > geographic origin (so Greek coffee would not qualify simply because it > is also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama hat because it's not > food). Second, I would like to compile a list of items that are known > as "American" in other parts of the world (although not always in > other > languages). I suppose, in this case, American cheese does not qualify > (and not simply because it is not really cheese).
>
> VS-)
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Dec 14 23:29:59 2008 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:29:59 -0600 Subject: Habas de refried Message-ID: The Cub Foods supermarket near Lake and Hiawatha in Minneapolis has aisle signs in English and Spanish. Among the Spanish on one: "habas de refried." The English is "refried beans." -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com Mirror Journal http://dsgood.insanejournal.com Mirror 2 http://dsgood.wordpress.com Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Dec 15 04:54:32 2008 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:54:32 -0500 Subject: SbaCL words of the year Message-ID: I've just announced the Separated by a Common Language words of the year. For British-to-American, it's the verb 'to vet'. For American-to-British, it's 'meh'. If you don't say 'meh' to that, there are more details at: Best wishes to all of you choosing the ADS words... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 05:23:30 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:23:30 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <200812141644.mBEBoP6V026776@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some general notes on the German version. Just for general interest--German Wiki suggests that the phrase has been more recently flipped "Lieber rot als tot". [Note--the first reference link for this ([2]) is dead.] But LTAR has an entry while LRAT does not. (More on this below.) *** A Croatian blogger also explains the origin--citation begging--as a Goebbels invention during the war.
"Better dead than Red" was an anti-Communist phrase first used during World War II in its original German form "Lieber tot als rot" and later during the Cold War by the United States. It was coined by Nazi Germany's Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels in the end phase of the Second World War to motivate the German military and population to fight the Russians to the end.
[I am highly skeptical of this origin. See, for example, knowledgerush.com as a potential source for this. Also, see below for more data] The slogan was clearly interpreted literally in some instances. Jean Baechler, Suicides, 1979, p. 329 I am assuming that the reference is to WWII data--full text not available from Google Books]
... described the unprecedented horrors that Russian occupation would bring with it, and launched the slogan: Lieber tot als rot (better dead than red). ... ... Certain reported cases have no need for commentary. In the area around Elbing a woman doctor poisoned herself and her two children; a father decided to die with the rest of the family and proposed one bullet for everyone in the house: a total of sixty-two deaths. ...
*** Another interesting reference for the German version is from a recent book that pops up on Google Books. [Wolfgang Mieder,The Politics of Proverbs, 1997, p. 119--Mieder had a similar title published in German in 1975, but it's clearly an updated version.] Although it mentions both the the straight and the inverted versions, it places the inverted version as "well-known".
A slogan from the disarmament movement during the early 1960s reappeared in the 1980s in a German cartoon strip. In the first frame of the strip, someone has just finished writing the well-known slogan "Lieber rot als tot!" (Better red than dead) on an empty wall. The second frame shows another person crossing out this message and replacing it with the inversion "Lieber tot als rot!!" ... In the third frame yet another person crosses out both versions and begins to write a new slogan with the word "Lieber" (Better) which then is concluded in the fourth frame as "Lieber weder noch!!!" (Better neither nor). [The reference identifies Der Spiegel, No. 20 (11 May 1981), p. 21, as the source.]
The fact that the inverse phrase was the rallying cry of the German disarmament movement suggests that indeed "Lieber tot als rot" could not have been a Goebbels invention. This is further enhanced by Mieder's explanation that the slogan was "well-known" *** Stephen Goranson's reference is the 1960 World Marxist Review, but the hit I got on Google Books gives p. 87 instead of p. 57.
"Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red")--is the infamous watchword of the hirelings of the reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies of the people in the capitalist countries.
This is the only excerpt that Google Books has and it also lacks the full chapter list. *** A German friend offered some help.
the German wikipedia mentions the book Sirach , but there it says "today king, tomorrow dead" and I'm not sure how that can possibly be understood as an origin. Then it goes on by suggesting late medieval furneral sermons as an origin. According to that, if the death was sudden, people said "today red, tommorow dead", meaning the "redness of life" on red cheeks. Then, when red became the color of the socialistic worker movement, this old saying might have been changed to a fighting parole. All other Wikipedias suggest Joseph Goebbels as a user of the phrase. But in the German one this part has been deleted, because obviously no user could prove that he said the line. I found some websites that say that he used it in a late-war radio speech on the so-called "Sender Werwolf", a radio station to create groups of partisans who would keep fighting against the allies ("Werwölfe", werewolves). Unfortunately, I only found excerpts from speeches via that sender, nothing complete. So I really can't tell if he used it. However, it might be possible since the excerpts I found all try to convince the listener to rather die than to give up. Another origin that's not listed in the wikis might be the street fights going on in the "Weimarer Republik" after WW1, in which all kinds of radicals fought bloody battles. According to a blog post a youth organisation of Germany's Social-Democrats once mentioned this origin, but the site on whcih they said it is down by now.
*** One interesting thing is that Phrasen.com has an entry for LRAT but not for LTAR. And I got a bit more from my friend. He took a look at the "discussion" section for the German wiki entry and found that people wanted to delete the Goebbels reference because they could not find a proper reference. But in one version of the entry, there were two links that provided such a reference.
1st: "RADIO WERWOLF On April 1, 1945, the German station 'Radio Werwolf' began broadcasting for the first time from a special transmitter in the town of Königswusterhausen, not far from Berlin. It was created by Propaganda Minister Geobbels to rally the population to suicidal resistance. Its theme, repeated over and over again was "Besser tot als rot" (Better dead than red)." and 2nd "Radio Werewolf was only on the air for a few weeks before the surrender of Nazi Germany. Josef Geobbles prepared a number of slogans on Radio Werewolf which were designed to boast the spirts of Germans, and called upon the Germans to mount resistance against the Allied armies. These slogans included: /*"People to Arms!" "Better dead than Red!" "The stronger the storm, the mightier the resistance!"*/ There was some disagreement in the Nazi leadership regarding the Werewolf resistance movement and Radio Werewolf. Reichminister Heinrich Himmler opposed Radio Werewolf, and many generals on the German Staff disapproved of the Werewolves. Himmler wanted Werewolf activities to remain secret, while Goebbels wanted to broadcast and play up news about the Werewolves. Nevertheless, Josef Goebbels said and did what he wanted during the final weeks of the crumbling Third Reich. There was no disagreement with SS Gen. Pruetzmann, who regarded all burgomasters in Allied occuplied zones as traitor who deserved assassination or liquidation."
The second site suggests Werewolf: The Story of the Nazi Resistance Movement 1944-1945 by Charles Whiting as the reference. The first site is a compilation of "lesser known facts" with no references and some "facts" of questionable provenance. Neither site offers any evidence of coinage--only utilization of the phrase. VS-) Stephen Goranson wrote: > Google Books claims (accurately or not) That v.3 pt. 2 [which would > beJuly-Dec] 1960 p.57 snippet has: > "Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red") ? is the infamous watchword > of the hirelings of reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies > of the ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 06:02:25 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:02:25 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } Looks like 1907: http://books.google.com/books?id=DPAaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA745&dq=%22rot+als+tot%22+date:1900-1950&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA746,M1 [1] -- Doug Wilson Links: ------ [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=DPAaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA745&dq=%22rot+als+tot%22+date:1900-1950&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA746,M1 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 07:59:25 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:59:25 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <200812150523.mBEBlKXI031557@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple more notes on Google Books. There appears to be a serious problem with periodicals. Among other things, Google Books lists The American Mercury as a 1924 source for "Better dead than red". In fact, the snippet shows that it includes both that and the inverse version! The only problem is that the publication data may not be accurate. The American Mercury was *founded* in 1924, which is why it is listed as 1924 in Google. The same is true about a publication listed under "Information Service" for Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America. The nominal date is 1928, but it also does not appear to be the publication date of the actual quote. This is a weekly publication that's been out since 1922, although not all libraries have the complete set. For example, Harvard Divinity School has it listed under 1924 because they start with vol. 3. The same problem with China Yearbook listed as 1937, but with the cover page showing 1962-1963. The Political Quarterly that claims the date of 1914 is actually from 1980. In fact, looking through the German hits for both "tot als rot" and "rot als tot", the same problem is quite evident. Only two pre-1950 DTR hits appear to be legitimate. There is no doubt about the 1939 book March of Fascism by Stephen Raushenbush, 1939, p. 302. This is a slightly different version--"Rather dead than red-white-red", referring to the Austrian flag--but the meaning and use are the same. Raushenbush's account closely matches the one by Lennhoff & Farnell, The Last Five Hours of Austria, 1938, p. 155. Ironically, both refer to Nazi slogans in German. But it's important that they also precede the alleged Goebbels coinage, from 1945. They also show slightly different translations--one uses "Rather", the other "Better". Both Lieber and Besser have been used in German. Reversing the search string gives a list entirely composed of periodicals, save one entry. This one, on the other hand, does not fit at all (although it might hold some interest for linguists). It is Speech is Easy by Reader & McMahon. The clip is a comparison of pairs of consonants (italics to highlight paired sounds omitted):
It takes longer to say hole than to say hope, then than thin, mit than pit, view than few, red than dead. With a little practice, prolonging these sounds will become a habit.
Not so for the actual German. Here, the search actually finds a meaningful hit--but only for "rot als tot". [Remaining hits are incorrectly-placed periodicals, except for one other--see PS below.] This one gives the full text version and the dates are clearly April 1906-April 1907. (Das freie Wort: Frankfurter Halbmonatsschrift für Fortschritt auf allen Gebieten des geistigen Lebens, p. 745) Here, there is no question that "Lieber rot als tot!" is a rallying cry of the liberals in 1907.
Vielleicht aber verrechnet sich der Kanzler doch noch, wenn der Liberalismus sich in diesen über sein Schicksal entscheidenden Tagen aus sich selbst besinnt. Gürtet er seine Lenden zum Kamps in der Erkenntnis, daß sein Feldgeschrei lauten muß: Aus Leben und Tod gegen die Reaktion, gegen die psassische und die junkerlich-agrarische!, dann könnte e r es sein, der sich zwei Majoritäten schafft: eine nach rechts herübergreisende in allen nationalen, und eine nach links, von der Mitte der Nationalliberalen bis zu Bebel und Singer, reichende in allen demokratischen Fragen. Das wäre die große Stunde des Liberalismus! Das wäre die Geburtsstunde seiner Macht! Also Parole bei den Hauptwahlen: Gegen die Reaktion aus der Rechten und in der Mitte! Parole bei den Stichwahlen: Lieber rot als tot!
This answers both my earlier questions with respect to the disarmament slogans. VS-) PS: Oddly enough, for the earliest entry, Google suggests that "rot als tot" combination appears in a 1857 Dutch publication of works of Joost Van den Volden (no idea who that is). But a closer inspection reveals this to be a completely false hit--here the publication date is not the problem. In fact, it's bad-OCR that compounds other Google issues. PPS: The German hit is the same as the one posted by Doug Wilson. earlier. Google built-in OCR--which appears to be the same software they use for searches--is very poor and requires correction. (And even then, it's only posted for public domain publications.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 15 16:01:38 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:01:38 -0500 Subject: Google Book Search misdating (was Re: "Better Dead Than Red") Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 2:59 AM, Victor wrote: > > A couple more notes on Google Books. There appears to be a serious > problem with periodicals. > > Among other things, Google Books lists The American Mercury as a 1924 > source for "Better dead than red". In fact, the snippet shows that it > includes both that and the inverse version! The only problem is that the > publication data may not be accurate. The American Mercury was *founded* > in 1924, which is why it is listed as 1924 in Google. This is a problem that all of us using Google Book Search for antedating purposes have run up against. There's some hope for improvement now that the Hathi Trust has gotten involved (for public-domain material) and Google's lawsuits have been settled (for in-copyright material), as I've discussed on Language Log: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=602 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=780 In the meantime, there are some tricks for dealing with misdated periodicals. 1. A misdated record may actually have good metadata, if you know where to look. For periodicals, never go by the year listed in the main search results page (even though this is what's used when restricting searches to a particular date range). Instead, look at what's listed under "More details" on the About the Book Page. This often shows the correct date, or at least a range of a year or two. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FcAdAAAAMAAJ Year listed as 1969, metadata shows it's from 1996 2. The metadata might at least tell you the correct volume/issue number, which you can then check elsewhere for the correct date. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=ut-2AAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1960, metadata shows it's from v.384 no.8544-8548 [turns out to be Sep. 2007] 3. You might be able to see the correct year or range of years on the small title page image on the About The Book page. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FQwVAAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1937, title page shows it's from 1962-1963 4. As a last resort, you can try "Search in This Book" for year numbers to see what shows up in the results (assuming you can see at least snippet view). Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=aZmNAAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1996, search on year numbers shows it's from 2001 On the bright side, it does seem that some of the old misdatings have actually been corrected or at least improved. So they're aware of the problem and are trying to do something about it. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 15 16:19:32 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:19:32 -0600 Subject: Google Book Search misdating (was Re: "Better Dead Than Red") (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812151612.mBFBksC3012138@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another hint: if the document is a government document, search inside the book for "fiscal", "fiscal year" -- this often leads to useful date information. Likewise "copyright". > > This is a problem that all of us using Google Book Search for > antedating purposes have run up against. There's some hope > for improvement now that the Hathi Trust has gotten involved > (for public-domain material) and Google's lawsuits have been > settled (for in-copyright material), as I've discussed on > Language Log: > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=602 > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=780 > > In the meantime, there are some tricks for dealing with > misdated periodicals. > > 1. A misdated record may actually have good metadata, if you > know where to look. For periodicals, never go by the year > listed in the main search results page (even though this is > what's used when restricting searches to a particular date > range). Instead, look at what's listed under "More details" > on the About the Book Page. This often shows the correct > date, or at least a range of a year or two. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FcAdAAAAMAAJ > Year listed as 1969, metadata shows it's from 1996 > > 2. The metadata might at least tell you the correct > volume/issue number, which you can then check elsewhere for > the correct date. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=ut-2AAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1960, metadata shows it's from v.384 > no.8544-8548 [turns out to be Sep. 2007] > > 3. You might be able to see the correct year or range of > years on the small title page image on the About The Book page. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FQwVAAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1937, title page shows it's from 1962-1963 > > 4. As a last resort, you can try "Search in This Book" for > year numbers to see what shows up in the results (assuming > you can see at least snippet view). > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=aZmNAAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1996, search on year numbers shows it's from 2001 > > On the bright side, it does seem that some of the old > misdatings have actually been corrected or at least improved. > So they're aware of the problem and are trying to do > something about it. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 15 18:37:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:25 -0800 Subject: "sloppy seconds" Message-ID: a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) first the story... Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends ESPN.com news services Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one thing." "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then walked out of the locker room. Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. ..... then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- girlfriends Associated Press Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments about his former girlfriends. "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I took it too far." ..... several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". the Urban Dictionary -- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sloppy+seconds -- has several entries that get at the core use. this one (#3) is the most decorous (it does give a nominal expression a verb definition, but that's a common feature of UD definitions): "To engage in sexual intercouse where ejaculation has previously ocurred in the orifice by another male within a short time frame. The sperm and semem [sic] is then used as a natural lubrication by the second male. Although the term may be used to describe both vaginal and anal intercourse with a male or female, it is traditionally used to describe vaginal intercourse." definition #2 provides a sense extension: "Any decrease in provision size or quality do [sic] to a hiearchical ranking among men." with an illustrative example: "When the fraternity entered the bar the bothers were allowed to pick dates first while the pledges got sloppy seconds." that's essentially 'second choice(s)' (but restricted here to male-ranking contexts). a somewhat different extension appears in definition #5: "Alas, this word has now leaked into general usage and people are taking it to mean 'ill-fitting hand-me-downs'." that's essentially 'second-hand item(s)'. i take this sense (which i wasn't familiar with until the Avery thing came around) to be close to Avery's sense, though Avery's use was clearly sexual, and the items in question are women. so the substitutes "ex-girlfriends" and "former girlfriends" aren't really accurate -- unless you understand "my girlfriend" to mean 'woman i am screwing'. all these extensions shift from "sloppy seconds" (a mass expression) denoting an activity, primarily in "get/have sloppy seconds", to "sloppy seconds" (a count expression) denoting a woman (or women), as in Avery's "fall in love with my sloppy seconds" 'fall in love with women i have screwed'. meanwhile, there's Sloppy Seconds ("a Ramones-influenced punk band from Indianapolis that started in the mid-1980s", according to wikipedia), the 2006 movie Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds (with "seconds", 'second helping'), the 2008 movie Feast II: Sloppy Seconds, a card game Sloppy Seconds (in which the object is: "Score the SECOND most number of points of each suit in each hand"), references to re- makes of movies as "sloppy seconds", references to plagiarizations as "sloppy seconds", and goodness knows what else. and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean Avery's sloppy seconds. by the way, the NYT didn't shy away from "sloppy seconds" in this movie review (of Vicky Cristina Barcelona) from 8/20/08: Sloppy Seconds Woody Allen fails to capitalize on a threesome with his sexy act By Armond White ... Rebecca Hall plays Vicky, the brunet BFF of Scarlett Johansson’s Cristina (the Iberian spelling goes unexplained). These sisterly American tourists are seduced by a suave Spanish painter, Juan Antonio (Javier Bardem, another Woody draftee cashing in on his recent celebrity). Vicky drops her pants, then her Yankee prudery, unlike thrill-seeker Cristina who insists to Juan Antonio, “You have to seduce me.” Through this sneaky, sloppy-seconds friendship, Allen pretends complexity but merely confuses basic emotions. ..... arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 19:14:59 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:14:59 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] "sloppy secon ds" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/08 1:38:00 PM, zwicky at STANFORD.EDU writes: > and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean > Avery's sloppy seconds > and others who would be happy to BE Sean Avery's s.s.'s ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity& ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 21:03:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:03:57 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: <200812151837.mBFBksTD012138@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, your analysis seems right to me. When I first heard the phrase, it referred to what all participants other than the first stud got in "pulling 'the train.'" I heard it in the context of the act of rape. However, in Amsterdam, I saw plenty of instances of "the train" being pulled that didn't involve having the woman against her will. The "coaches" of the train were usually dumb swabbies - they were always in uniform - who either had no idea that they were in a sexual paradise or had no time to waste availing themselves of the local bennies. Among my friends, the concept of "sloppy seconds" was mythological in any case, to say the least, there being no train-pulling group of rapists either among us or known to us. By the time that we had graduated from high school, the term was obsolete. The phrase was unused in the military, though I did once hear tell of the act having been perpetrated against a German woman by GI's from my post. But *not* from my unit. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "sloppy seconds" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, > separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) > > first the story... > > Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends > ESPN.com news services > > Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET > > [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman > for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other > hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out > of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. > > Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, > Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging > remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when > Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera > present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one > thing." > > "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario > native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common > thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I > don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then > walked out of the locker room. > > Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show > "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion > Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the > Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports > Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend > of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. > > ..... > > then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- > girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... > > Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- > girlfriends > Associated Press > > Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET > > > DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York > on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and > gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments > about his former girlfriends. > > "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the > press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made > those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. > > "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now > acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary > embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in > the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and > Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. > > "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the > commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars > management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on > and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I > took it too far." > > ..... > > several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with > which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness > of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow > a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main > interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". > > the Urban Dictionary -- > > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sloppy+seconds > > -- > > has several entries that get at the core use. this one (#3) is the > most decorous (it does give a nominal expression a verb definition, > but that's a common feature of UD definitions): "To engage in sexual > intercouse where ejaculation has previously ocurred in the orifice by > another male within a short time frame. The sperm and semem [sic] is > then used as a natural lubrication by the second male. Although the > term may be used to describe both vaginal and anal intercourse with a > male or female, it is traditionally used to describe vaginal > intercourse." > > definition #2 provides a sense extension: "Any decrease in provision > size or quality do [sic] to a hiearchical ranking among men." with an > illustrative example: "When the fraternity entered the bar the bothers > were allowed to pick dates first while the pledges got sloppy > seconds." that's essentially 'second choice(s)' (but restricted here > to male-ranking contexts). > > a somewhat different extension appears in definition #5: "Alas, this > word has now leaked into general usage and people are taking it to > mean 'ill-fitting hand-me-downs'." that's essentially 'second-hand > item(s)'. > > i take this sense (which i wasn't familiar with until the Avery thing > came around) to be close to Avery's sense, though Avery's use was > clearly sexual, and the items in question are women. so the > substitutes "ex-girlfriends" and "former girlfriends" aren't really > accurate -- unless you understand "my girlfriend" to mean 'woman i am > screwing'. > > all these extensions shift from "sloppy seconds" (a mass expression) > denoting an activity, primarily in "get/have sloppy seconds", to > "sloppy seconds" (a count expression) denoting a woman (or women), as > in Avery's "fall in love with my sloppy seconds" 'fall in love with > women i have screwed'. > > meanwhile, there's Sloppy Seconds ("a Ramones-influenced punk band > from Indianapolis that started in the mid-1980s", according to > wikipedia), the 2006 movie Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds (with > "seconds", 'second helping'), the 2008 movie Feast II: Sloppy Seconds, > a card game Sloppy Seconds (in which the object is: "Score the SECOND > most number of points of each suit in each hand"), references to re- > makes of movies as "sloppy seconds", references to plagiarizations as > "sloppy seconds", and goodness knows what else. > > and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean > Avery's sloppy seconds. > > by the way, the NYT didn't shy away from "sloppy seconds" in this > movie review (of Vicky Cristina Barcelona) from 8/20/08: > > Sloppy Seconds > > Woody Allen fails to capitalize on a threesome with his sexy act > > By Armond White > > ... Rebecca Hall plays Vicky, the brunet BFF of Scarlett Johansson's > Cristina (the Iberian spelling goes unexplained). These sisterly > American tourists are seduced by a suave Spanish painter, Juan Antonio > (Javier Bardem, another Woody draftee cashing in on his recent > celebrity). Vicky drops her pants, then her Yankee prudery, unlike > thrill-seeker Cristina who insists to Juan Antonio, "You have to > seduce me." > > Through this sneaky, sloppy-seconds friendship, Allen pretends > complexity but merely confuses basic emotions. > > ..... > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Dec 15 22:02:34 2008 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:02:34 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote: > a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, > separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) > > first the story... > > Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends > ESPN.com news services > > Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET > > [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman > for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other > hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out > of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. > > Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, > Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging > remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when > Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera > present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one > thing." > > "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario > native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common > thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I > don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then > walked out of the locker room. > > Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show > "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion > Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the > Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports > Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend > of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. > > ..... > > then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- > girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... > > Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- > girlfriends > Associated Press > > Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET > > > DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York > on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and > gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments > about his former girlfriends. > > "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the > press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made > those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. > > "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now > acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary > embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in > the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and > Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. > > "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the > commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars > management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on > and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I > took it too far." > > ..... > > several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with > which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness > of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow > a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main > interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". I have no quarrels with the etymological info snipped below. As a hockey fan (well, to be honest, as a hockey junky), I just want to add that what got Avery suspended was more a pattern of behavior than simply this one instance. Immediately before he made these remarks, he'd told his coach that he wasn't going to speak to the media, and apparently he'd had repeated meetings with the commissioner about behavior issues. If this were the only blot on Avery's copybook, he'd not have been suspended; pleading no contest to spousal abuse doesn't get a player a suspension, for instance. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 01:51:24 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:51:24 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: <4946D3FA.1040104@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 5:02 PM -0500 12/15/08, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, >>separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) >> >>first the story... >> >>Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends >>ESPN.com news services >> >>Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET >> >>[Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman >>for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other >>hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out >>of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. >> >>Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, >>Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging >>remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when >>Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera >>present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one >>thing." >> >>"I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario >>native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common >>thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I >>don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then >>walked out of the locker room. >> >>Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show >>"24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion >>Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the >>Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports >>Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend >>of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. >> >>..... >> >>then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- >>girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... >> >>Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- >>girlfriends >>Associated Press >> >>Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET >> >> >>DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York >>on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and >>gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments >>about his former girlfriends. >> >>"I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the >>press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made >>those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. >> >>"It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now >>acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary >>embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in >>the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and >>Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. >> >>"I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the >>commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars >>management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on >>and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I >>took it too far." >> >>..... >> >>several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with >>which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness >>of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow >>a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main >>interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". > >I have no quarrels with the etymological info snipped below. As a hockey >fan (well, to be honest, as a hockey junky), I just want to add that >what got Avery suspended was more a pattern of behavior than simply this >one instance. Immediately before he made these remarks, he'd told his >coach that he wasn't going to speak to the media, and apparently he'd >had repeated meetings with the commissioner about behavior issues. If >this were the only blot on Avery's copybook, he'd not have been >suspended; pleading no contest to spousal abuse doesn't get a player a >suspension, for instance. > Within the game, he's known for being quite a pest. In fact, it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone involved that a rule was created the very next day to make the practice in question illegal.* See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Avery on the Sean Avery rule and more than you ever wanted to know about Avery. LH *When the dunk was ruled out of college basketball to make life harder for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (then Lew Alcindor) or the tees were moved back to make golf harder for Tiger Woods or the lane was widened so Wilt Chamberlain wouldn't be quite so dominant, none of these were instituted the day after a specific action of the player in question, and the new edicts were all designed to insure competitive balance, not to outlaw bad sportsmanship. So Avery's legacy is assured, at least for now. I don't except there will be a sloppy seconds rule for suspensions, though. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 02:21:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:21:00 -0500 Subject: Our Fred on Quotes of the Year Message-ID: An AP article of more or less this form has been popping up in papers around the world. I wonder if Jesse Jackson's "crude remark" on Obama and his family jewels was actually quoted in some of the write-ups. And wasn't "bitter" a crucial component of the "bittergate" quote, at least to Obama's detractors? LH ========== [Associated Press] Sarah Palin lost the election, but she's a winner to a connoisseur of quotations. The Republican vice presidential candidate and her comedic doppelganger, Tina Fey, took the top two spots in this year's list of most memorable quotes compiled by Fred R. Shapiro. First place was "I can see Russia from my house!" spoken in satire of Palin's foreign policy credentials by Fey on "Saturday Night Live." Palin actual quote was: "They're our next-door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." Palin also made the third annual list for her inability to name newspapers she reads. When questioned by CBS anchor Katie Couric, Palin said she reads "all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years." Palin's quotes were pivotal, said Shapiro, associate librarian and lecturer in legal research at the Yale Law School who compiles the list. "This quote helped shape the election results," he said of the Russia quote. "As it sank in the public realized this was someone really, really inexperienced and perhaps lacking in curiosity about the world." Shapiro issued his Yale Book of Quotations, with about 13,000 entries, two years ago after six years of research. He expects to release the next edition in about five years, but in the meantime plans to issue annual top 10 lists. Picking the best quotes this year was especially challenging because the presidential race and financial crisis provided so much material, Shapiro said. Last year's list ranged from "Don't tase me, bro"--shouted by a Florida college student--to a quote from a Miss Teen USA contestant who gave a confused and mangled response to a question about why one-fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a map. Shapiro said that when he began the list he thought he would select the most profound, eloquent or witty quotes. But the celebrity culture and political discourse led him down a different path. "What I have come to do is pick some quotes that really say something about our culture and they tend almost exclusively to be quotes that are notable for negative reasons rather than being admirable or eloquent," Shapiro said. Palin's running mate, Sen. John McCain, also made the list twice, once for his "the fundamentals of America's economy are strong" comment in April and again for saying "maybe 100" when asked last January how many years U.S. troops could remain in Iraq. Shapiro said the quotes may have been somewhat unfairly construed. "Nonetheless, these quotes cemented his image as someone who was out of touch with economic realities or indifferent to economic realities and being someone who was fanatical about prosecuting the war in Iraq," he said. Shapiro relies on suggestions from quote-watchers around the world, plus his own choices from songs, the news and movies, and then searches databases and the Internet to determine the popularity of the quotes. Phil Gramm, a McCain advisor, made the list for saying "We have sort of become a nation of whiners" in July in reference to Americans concerned about the economy. President-elect Barack Obama didn't make the list, not even for his much-criticized remark in which he said some small-town Americans "cling to guns or religion." "To me it didn't seem like a very remarkable or very foolish quote," said Shapiro, who describes himself as a liberal Democrat. "Ultimately I decided against it, but it was a close call." However, a crude remark about Obama by the Rev. Jesse Jackson did make the list. Jackson apologized for the comment during what he thought was a private conversation in July. "It indicates Republicans do not have a monopoly on quotes that are deplorable," Shapiro said. While Obama dominated the year and produced memorable quotes, "quotes from people like Palin were more celebrated and said more about our times than anything Obama said." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 11:47:18 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:47:18 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen Message-ID: > In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the > Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It > netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van > Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The > word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder > what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. > "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to > swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to > stimulate either oneself or someone else.' The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, and swaffled online. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 15:03:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:03:33 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" Message-ID: Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white aerospace engineer: "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time when I would have said, "com PROMising." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 15:08:38 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:08:38 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen In-Reply-To: <200812161157.mBGBl2UK016548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Non-North-American English, I assume? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the >> Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It >> netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van >> Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The >> word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder >> what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. >> "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to >> swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to >> stimulate either oneself or someone else.' > > > > > The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, > as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, > and swaffled online. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Tue Dec 16 15:26:05 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:26:05 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen Message-ID: Adds new meaning to the concept of what male teens do so often: think with their dicks. dh >>> In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the >>> Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It >>> netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van >>> Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The >>> word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder >>> what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. >>> "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to >>> swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to >>> stimulate either oneself or someone else.' >> >> >ord-of-the-Year >> > >> >> The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, >> as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, >> and swaffled online. >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 16:20:53 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:20:53 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812160703x89728d8wf2cefcae0f607ea0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be reassured that folks are still reading... LH At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: > >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >aerospace engineer: > >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >when I would have said, "com PROMising." > >-Wilson >--- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 17:23:48 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <200812161621.mBGBl2Fc016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But is it JUST a spelling pronunciation, or is it a reinterpretation of the word as meaning "promising to each other" -- which would be closer to the meaning of "marriage", if less likely? Mark Mandel On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I > guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be > reassured that folks are still reading... > > LH > > At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from > Georgia: > > > >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > > > >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white > >aerospace engineer: > > > >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > > > > >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, > >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate > >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time > >when I would have said, "com PROMising." > > > >-Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 17:36:22 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812160923r576d65ebw97bd55a436f6325e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0500 12/16/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >But is it JUST a spelling pronunciation, or is it a reinterpretation of the >word as meaning "promising to each other" -- which would be closer to the >meaning of "marriage", if less likely? Not to mention the possible reinterpretation of the *first* syllable of the reanalyzed term. ;-) >On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I >> guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be >> reassured that folks are still reading... >> >> LH >> >> At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from >> Georgia: >> > >> >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? >> > >> >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >> >aerospace engineer: >> > >> >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." >> > >> > >> >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >> >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >> >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >> >when I would have said, "com PROMising." >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Dec 16 19:19:40 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:19:40 -0600 Subject: Maledicta ends publication Message-ID: I send the note below with regret. Reinhold ("Rey") Aman has been a unique presence in lexical/phraseological research over the past generation, and I consider him a friend. At some point it would be good to prepare an article or monograph about him and his life's work. Gerald Cohen [Note about Maledicta's end]: Reinhold Aman, the editor and publisher of _Maledicta: The International Journal of Verbal Aggression_, has informed me that _Maledicta_ will no longer be published. Its publication run extends 30 years and 13 volumes, which contain much uncensored and humorous material of interest to linguists and scholars of English and many other languages. Links to Contents of vols. 1-13 can be found on his "Price List and Order Form" at: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/pricelist_order.html Sample reviews are here: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/reviewers.html and Topics treated in the 3,700 pages of _Maledicta_ are shown here: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/unique.html Aman is selling the remaining copies at greatly reduced prices and can be reached at aman at maledicta.org . # # # ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 16 19:19:55 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:19:55 -0600 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812160151.mBFKGO1r010246@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > > In fact, > it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that > Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a > game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone > involved that a rule was created the very next day to make > the practice in question illegal. Eddie Gaedel was a midget who had one at-bat with the St. Louis Browns on Sunday, 8/19/1951. He drew a walk. Two days later, AL president Will Harridge voided his contract. (Wikipedia wrongly says that it was on "the next day", the 20th, when Harridge did so.) Later that year, he made a plate appearance in Syracuse as a paid player in an amateur game. He struck out, leading to the wonderful headline "Midget Fans upset as Midget Fans". They don't write them like they used to . . . . Bill Mullins Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 20:53:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:53:42 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812161920.mBGIcDlW016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had no choice as to where they sat. I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: "I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." And white Bostonian *loved* him! -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > >> > >> In fact, >> it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that >> Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a >> game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone >> involved that a rule was created the very next day to make >> the practice in question illegal. > > Eddie Gaedel was a midget who had one at-bat with the St. Louis Browns > on Sunday, 8/19/1951. > He drew a walk. > > Two days later, AL president Will Harridge voided his contract. > (Wikipedia wrongly says that it was on "the next day", the 20th, when > Harridge did so.) > > Later that year, he made a plate appearance in Syracuse as a paid player > in an amateur game. He struck out, leading to the wonderful headline > "Midget Fans upset as Midget Fans". They don't write them like they > used to . . . . > > Bill Mullins > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 21:33:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:33:30 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <82745f630812161253t352fa331w9803e2577ff740e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. >Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by >the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the >Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the >venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. >Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had >no choice as to where they sat. > >I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by >some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, >but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the >stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he >had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games >certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white >population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no >more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a >light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: > >"I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." > >And white Bostonian *loved* him! > >-Wilson It's curious. By the early 1960s, when the American League Brownies had moved out of town to become the Baltimore Orioles, the National League Cardinals were renowned as a team of racial harmony, and in general the National League was much more integrated on the field, if not off it, than the AL, beginning but not ending with Jackie Robinson's debut in '47.* When Curt Flood, now known mostly as the great martyr in the cause of free agency, was traded from the Cards to the Phillies, he refused to report (according to various reports, including that in detail in Halberstam's book on the 1964 season) because of the tales of how racist Philly was. So I assume, although I don't know for a fact, that by the 60s, when the Cards were the ascendant team in the National League (winning the '64 and '67 World Series and playing in the '68 one), the stands must have been integrated as well. This would have been the Augie Busch era in terms of ownership--did that make a difference? Others on this list probably know more of the details than I do. LH *The difference in racial makeup of the two leagues, especially as regards star players, was the principal reason standardly given for the NL dominance in the all-star games in those years, and to support Wilson's point the Red Sox were among the very last team to admit a black player, in the person of the otherwise forgettable Pumpsie Green. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 00:44:12 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:44:12 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812162134.mBGBl2Qp019883@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Curt Flood, plus the sale of the team to August Anheuser Busch, Jr., who built a new, fully-integrated ball park named after himself, made all the difference in the world. I recall listening - sigh! those were the good old days! - to a Cardinals game with a cousin-in-law (he was married to my cousin Lois Harrold, whose family name is the source of my first name, Harrold; Walter, AKA Wilson, NMN, Gray was my father). Flood kicked ass in that game, causing said in-law to remark, "Damn! He's going to make me a fan of the Cardinals, yet!" And, of course, once the Browns moved to Baltimore, black fans shifted their allegiance to the Cardinals, especially after the Dodgers moved to L.A., breaking the tie of the Jackie Robinson legacy. BTW, I once saw Babe Ruth. He was the guest of honor on Babe Ruth Day at a Yankees vs. Browns game. At the time, the poor old guy was already on his last legs and his voice was little more than a croak, as he addressed the overflow crowd. Little-known fact: back in the day, the best-selling beer in Saint Louis itself was not Budweiser, but Falstaff, brewed by the now-defunct Griesedieck Bros. Brewery. The prophet-without-honor bit was a great embarrassment to AB, first everywhere but in its own home town. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:53 PM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. >>Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by >>the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the >>Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the >>venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. >>Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had >>no choice as to where they sat. >> >>I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by >>some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, >>but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the >>stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he >>had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games >>certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white >>population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no >>more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a >>light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: >> >>"I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." >> >>And white Bostonian *loved* him! >> >>-Wilson > > It's curious. By the early 1960s, when the American League Brownies > had moved out of town to become the Baltimore Orioles, the National > League Cardinals were renowned as a team of racial harmony, and in > general the National League was much more integrated on the field, if > not off it, than the AL, beginning but not ending with Jackie > Robinson's debut in '47.* When Curt Flood, now known mostly as the > great martyr in the cause of free agency, was traded from the Cards > to the Phillies, he refused to report (according to various reports, > including that in detail in Halberstam's book on the 1964 season) > because of the tales of how racist Philly was. So I assume, although > I don't know for a fact, that by the 60s, when the Cards were the > ascendant team in the National League (winning the '64 and '67 World > Series and playing in the '68 one), the stands must have been > integrated as well. This would have been the Augie Busch era in > terms of ownership--did that make a difference? Others on this list > probably know more of the details than I do. > > LH > > *The difference in racial makeup of the two leagues, especially as > regards star players, was the principal reason standardly given for > the NL dominance in the all-star games in those years, and to support > Wilson's point the Red Sox were among the very last team to admit a > black player, in the person of the otherwise forgettable Pumpsie > Green. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 01:39:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:39:18 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <200812161621.mBGBl214016550@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've misread "misled" as "MAYZ-ld," too. I couldn't make hide nor hair out of the sentence. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I > guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be > reassured that folks are still reading... > > LH > > At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: >> >>"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? >> >>Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >>aerospace engineer: >> >>"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." >> >> >>I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >>at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >>would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >>when I would have said, "com PROMising." >> >>-Wilson >>--- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Mark Twain >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Wed Dec 17 05:43:39 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:43:39 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2008 12:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgi= a: "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white aerospace engineer: "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time when I would have said, "com PROMising." Could she have meant "co-promising"? Pronounced CO-PROM-is-ing. That would make sense, and a wedding (if not the entire marriage) is, after all, an exchange of mutual promises. Rosemarie None are so poor that they have nothing to give … and none are so rich that they have nothing to receive. JP **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 12:57:02 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:57:02 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) In-Reply-To: <200812170543.mBH23Wvg016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You never know. My wife once asked me whether I wanted to hear about her day. I said no. Of course, I meant to say yes. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Your Name wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 12/17/2008 12:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =20 > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > =20 > =20 > Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgi= > =3D > a: > > "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > > Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white > aerospace engineer: > > "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > > I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, > at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate > would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time > when I would have said, "com PROMising." > =20 > =20 > > Could she have meant "co-promising"? Pronounced CO-PROM-is-ing. That =20 > would make sense, and a wedding (if not the entire marriage) is, after all,=20= > an =20 > exchange of mutual promises. =20 > =20 > Rosemarie > > None are so poor that they have nothing to give =E2=80=A6 and none are so r= > ich that=20 > they have nothing to receive.=20 > > > > > JP > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and=20 > favorite sites in one place. Try it now.=20 > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp&icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolco= > m00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Dec 17 20:23:09 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:23:09 -0800 Subject: antedate for "blue collar" (OED: 1950) Message-ID: The five-man committee stressed the need for the following speedy remedial actions: . . . Simplification of the efficiency rating system for ”blue collar workers” to make it more easily understood by employes [sic]. ”Labor Corrections at Navy Yard Urged, " New York Times, Jul 15, 1945 That's well after "white collar," which the OED puts in 1919. Which leads me to wonder: when did workingmen start wearing shirts with collars, anyway? Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Dec 17 21:42:44 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:42:44 -0800 Subject: antedate for Johnny (John) Doughboy, 1892 (RHDAS: 1918) Message-ID: "... there ain't nothin' like a drink-cravin' 'cept a drug-cravin'. I seen that on a Johnny Doughboy in Montana." "The Court at Big G Ranch," by Thomas B. Monfort, in Two Tales, 1892. (Google Books) RHDAS has 1918 for "John/Johnny Doughboy" but has "doughboy" for infantryman from 1847, so the earlier "Johnny Doughboy" isn't surprising. Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Dec 17 23:34:02 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:34:02 -0600 Subject: "let's play two" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200808080223.m77JiXBe004156@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The Yale Book of Quotes has 1972 for "Let's play two" from Ernie Banks. "Banks Majors' Happiest Warrior," By Ray Sons. Charleston Daily Mail 3/14/1969 p. 24 col 3. "And he hollers to anyone who will listen: "Let's play two games today. It's too nice a day for just one." " "Sports Mirror" by John Mooney, _The Salt Lake Tribune_ 4/7/1969 p. 25 col 1. "Yet, he's [Banks] prancing like a rookie, taking one more lap and setting an example as he beams, "Let's play two games today. It's too nice a day just for one." " "Ernie's Smile Hides Gloom from Bears" DON PIERSON; _Chicago Tribune_ Oct 6, 1971 pg. C2 "He [Banks] saw a Bears' trainer wearing a Cubs cap and yelled "Let's play ball. What a beautiful day. Let's play two today." " Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Dec 18 00:45:45 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:45:45 -0600 Subject: Project Management Lingo (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200709101301.l8AAm97e005922@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Check the post, as well as the comments. http://sippey.typepad.com/filtered/2008/12/project-management-lingo.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 04:32:06 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:32:06 -0500 Subject: A dialect split Message-ID: I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:25:09 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:25:09 +0800 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHHeMZe020276@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. Randy On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A dialect split > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:53:50 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:53:50 +0800 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHHeMZe020276@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Reposting in plain text (sorry).] I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. Randy On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A dialect split > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > > -Wilson > ––– > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Dec 18 14:04:26 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:04:26 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180500.mBHLFUXc020280@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." Don't forget 2k10 [tu.ke.tEn]. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 05:23:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:23:30 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <82745f630812172032o7c6cace7n848ea280321652f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > >-Wilson I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the "twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been "twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 14:52:06 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:52:06 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180853.mBHLFUis020280@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't mean to imply that I was totally taken aback by this phenomenon. I merely found iit mildly interesting that people are alreeady lining up, so to speak, a year aheaad of time. No doubt, just as people already say, "two-thousand-eight," "two-o-eight," and "two-eight," some people will say "two-ten" as well as "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten," or maybe even "two-o-ten," when the year 2010 arrives. You never know. FWIW, I intend to go with "twenty-ten." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: A dialect split > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [Reposting in plain text (sorry).] > > I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. > > Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is > no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. > > Randy > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A dialect split >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >> >> -Wilson >> ––– >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 15:26:54 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:26:54 +0000 Subject: dialect jokes In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHMK9X8015981@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A Georgia State trooper pulled over a pickup on I- 75. The trooper asked: "Got any I.D.?" The driver replied: "Bout wut?" A man in North Carolina had a flat tire, pulled off on the side of the road, and proceeded to put flowers in front of the car and behind it. A passerby studied the scene and asked the fellow what the problem was. The man replied: "I have a flat tire." The passerby asked: "But what's with the flowers?" The man responded: "They said When you break down put flares in the front and flares in the back. Hey, it don't make no sense to me neither." Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Dec 18 16:10:16 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:10:16 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: <200812181549.mBIFnDVW020249@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:49, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because > it is one [or two] syllables shorter. I've observed that when people are not thinking about what they're calling the year, "twenty nine" and "twenty eight" and so forth are more common than "twenty oh nine" or "twenty oh eight." Even though that's counterintuitive. I believe it works because the year "2029" is sufficiently far off for there to be little confusion. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 18 15:49:08 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:49:08 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/18/2008 12:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >> >>-Wilson > >I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the >"twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because >I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many >years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But >a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been >"twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because it is one [or two] syllables shorter. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:53:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:53:30 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:10 AM -0500 12/18/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:49, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >>"Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because >>it is one [or two] syllables shorter. > >I've observed that when people are not thinking about what they're >calling the year, "twenty nine" and "twenty eight" and so forth are >more common than "twenty oh nine" or "twenty oh eight." Even though >that's counterintuitive. I believe it works because the year "2029" is >sufficiently far off for there to be little confusion. > As I said, I'm a "two thousand (and) nine" speaker, but I suspect that for the other group there may be a different juncture for "29" ("twenty-nine") and "2009" pronounced as "twenty - nine". Maybe not obligatorily, but typically, the latter has a longer pause. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 19 15:01:56 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:01:56 -0500 Subject: W=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now comes the Swiss German WOTY: Rettungspaket = 'rescue package' http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/Rescue_package_named_Word_of_the_Year.html On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' > http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html > > German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' > (gathering of people over 30) > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html > > Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) > http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html > > > --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Fri Dec 19 16:52:22 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:52:22 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" Message-ID: Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass noun, like "scampi." AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 17:09:51 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:09:51 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: <200812181549.mBIEPwK1008838@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've gone with "twenty-hundred," "twenty-o-one," etc. I haven't come across anyone else who does this, so far. And, if I never do, LIGAF. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: 2010 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/18/2008 12:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >>> >>>-Wilson >> >>I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the >>"twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because >>I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many >>years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But >>a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been >>"twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. > > "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because > it is one [or two] syllables shorter. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 17:42:00 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:42:00 -0800 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191652.mBJBrMmQ029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: singular "small fry" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, > of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is > perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass > noun, like "scampi." this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". the OED has no clearly singular count uses, but you can google up plenty of them: a NYT headline "A Big Struggle Over a Small Fry", a t-shirt "Just a Small Fry", "As all those petite, wannabe-tall yet slow-to-grow youngsters know, life as a small fry can have its disadvantages", "As a small fry we offer custom product assemblies", and many more (plus references to french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 18:10:54 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? Message-ID: A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make “a buck” — a million dollars. More than 100 people in Merrill’s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ -- The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, escalation wise? dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 19 18:15:38 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:15:38 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? In-Reply-To: <2631B38D0C130D0A3617002004@Seamus> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:10:54PM -0500, Doug Harris wrote: > A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a > new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": > _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make “a buck” — a million dollars. More than 100 people in > Merrill’s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ > -- > The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the > rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. > It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then > a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. > Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other > specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, > escalation wise? HDAS has examples of _buck_ as $100, $1000, and $100,000.... _buck_ '$1,000,000' has been common for some years on Wall Street. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 18:50:56 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:50:56 -0500 Subject: just deserts--again Message-ID: Last night, Josh Marshall commented on the Norm Coleman situation in a post he titled "Just Desserts". This generated some responses from readers: [and follow-up responses:] 1. P.S. Only one "s" in Just Deserts. 2. Depends - if he means a sweet something as a final course in a meal then it's "dessert" If it's a hot, dry, sandy landscape or to leave without intention of returning then it's "desert" 3. Hate to be pedantic but actually it doesn't: 4. ...but what if you're skipping dinner and having "just dessert"...or was it diner? 5. Just deserts over there in Iraq. Just desserts on the menu there in Minnesota. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:03:55 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:03:55 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <239AEA55-98DC-46AF-8E48-CA263BD5A75A@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Alison Murie >>Subject: singular "small fry" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, >>of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is >>perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass >>noun, like "scampi." > >this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual >use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a >count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural >syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small >fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". the OED has no clearly >singular count uses, but you can google up plenty of them: a NYT >headline "A Big Struggle Over a Small Fry", a t-shirt "Just a Small >Fry", "As all those petite, wannabe-tall yet slow-to-grow youngsters >know, life as a small fry can have its disadvantages", "As a small fry >we offer custom product assemblies", and many more (plus references to >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). > >arnold For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must crash some speakers' mental grammar check. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:08:59 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:08:59 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? In-Reply-To: <20081219181538.GA11422@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1:15 PM -0500 12/19/08, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:10:54PM -0500, Doug Harris wrote: >> A NY Times business story today ("On Wall >>Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") >>included a >> new-to-me escalation of the amount of money >>that might be referred to as "a buck": >> _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make “a >>buck” — a million dollars. More than 100 people >>in >> Merrill’s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ >> -- >> The second sentence suggests how widespread >>that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in >>the >> rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. >> It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a >>'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five >>dollars, then >> a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it >>used to represent a thousand dollars a time or >>two. >> Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the >>'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted >>other >> specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or >>$100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) >>usage unique, >> escalation wise? > >HDAS has examples of _buck_ as $100, $1000, and $100,000.... > >_buck_ '$1,000,000' has been common for some years on Wall >Street. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > Then too, as we've discussed on a thread a few years back, there are the metaphorical extensions: a shortstop weighing 175 and hitting .150 could be said to weigh a buck seventy-five and to be hitting a buck fifty. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 19:19:57 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:19:57 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191904.mBJBl2Pa029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ... (plus references to > >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from > >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). > > > >arnold > > For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must > crash some speakers' mental grammar check. Unless the question actually referred to one small French-fry -- one piece/stick/Stück. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 19 19:29:44 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:29:44 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? Message-ID: But it's still the case that a money market fund's failure to maintain a constant net asset value of $1.00 per share is "breaking the buck." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 1:11 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: What the Buck? A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make "a buck" - a million dollars. More than 100 people in Merrill's bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ -- The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, escalation wise? dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:31:33 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:31:33 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812191119u7081d216y4428ca6d5258f5e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:19 PM -0500 12/19/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ... (plus references to >> >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from >> >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). >> > >> >arnold >> >> For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must >> crash some speakers' mental grammar check. > >Unless the question actually referred to one small French-fry -- one >piece/stick/Stück. > Hard (although not impossible) to take it that way, given that there's no well-defined category of a small french-fried-potato-Stück-from-McDonald's to which an average calorie content could be assigned, as opposed to that of a small Pepsi-from-McDonald's. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Dec 19 21:15:02 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:15:02 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191931.mBJJGYUo029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Hard (although not impossible) to take it that > way, given that there's no well-defined category > of a small > french-fried-potato-Stück-from-McDonald's to > which an average calorie content could be > assigned, as opposed to that of a small > Pepsi-from-McDonald's. Pepsi from McDonald's? Highly unlikely. or unReal. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 21:41:45 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:41:45 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0500 12/19/08, Ann Burlingham wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Hard (although not impossible) to take it that >> way, given that there's no well-defined category >> of a small >> french-fried-potato-Stück-from-McDonald's to >> which an average calorie content could be >> assigned, as opposed to that of a small >> Pepsi-from-McDonald's. > >Pepsi from McDonald's? Highly unlikely. or unReal. Oh, are they on the Coke side of the isocola? Well, mutatis mutandis. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Fri Dec 19 22:43:05 2008 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:43:05 -0600 Subject: DARE on Google Books Message-ID: I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also supportive of this move toward open access. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 23:02:58 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:02:58 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] DARE on Goo gle Books Message-ID: This is good news--and I know that you look forward to the day when HUP moves far enough beyond the 20th century actually to license research libraries to make 100% of DARE available to patrons on the internet. Google Books is sooooo weird. I recently tried to access an article in WORD STUDY from the 1940s, reprinted from the Princeton Review. I could only get bits and pieces of it. WHY? No one seems to know. I finally wrote to Merriam and someone there was quite willing to scan the whole article and send it to me. Ditto the Princeton Review. GB seems to be protecting the copyright of publishers who have no interest in having the articles protected. GB says that they scanned the WS article in the University of Michigan library. Could Michigan be objecting? In a message dated 12/19/08 5:43:15 PM, jdhall at WISC.EDU writes: > I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now > accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited > Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total > content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard > University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also > supportive of this move toward open access. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 20 03:32:04 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:32:04 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] DARE on Google Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Google has deep pockets and is erring* on the side of caution. I think that unless they get specific approval for the individual work, then they only make portions available. What we really need is a complete overhaul of copyright law in light of the digital age. Something along the lines of if a work is not registered, the copyright expires in 7 years. And once registered, require copyright holders to make a positive affirmation every few years of their continued interest in keeping a work out of the public domain. If they don't, the copyright lapses and the work enters the public domain. If done right, this could be all be done electronically over the internet and with a minimum of cost to both the government and publishers. This would allow a huge amount of material that has no market value to be made widely available without fear of lawsuit. It would also solve the issue of "orphaned" works to which no one knows whom the copyright belongs to. * = Excessively, in my opinion, but they're the ones on the hook to pay if they get sued. Also, given the size of Google Books and the fact that they make money off the ads, they could be subject to criminal copyright violations if they don't do it right. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] DARE on Google Books This is good news--and I know that you look forward to the day when HUP moves far enough beyond the 20th century actually to license research libraries to make 100% of DARE available to patrons on the internet. Google Books is sooooo weird. I recently tried to access an article in WORD STUDY from the 1940s, reprinted from the Princeton Review. I could only get bits and pieces of it. WHY? No one seems to know. I finally wrote to Merriam and someone there was quite willing to scan the whole article and send it to me. Ditto the Princeton Review. GB seems to be protecting the copyright of publishers who have no interest in having the articles protected. GB says that they scanned the WS article in the University of Michigan library. Could Michigan be objecting? In a message dated 12/19/08 5:43:15 PM, jdhall at WISC.EDU writes: > I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now > accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited > Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total > content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard > University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also > supportive of this move toward open access. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 04:03:06 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:03:06 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? Message-ID: I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google hits for each show rotator cuff 1,320,000 rotator cup 9,310 blood pressure cuff 334,000 blood pressure cup 1,510 Many of the "cup" hits clearly identify the object. In some cases of BPcuff, pictures and model numbers are provided. And why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP instrument no longer obviously resembles one? Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 04:10:20 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:10:20 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns Message-ID: It's actually child-speak. More specifically, these were utterances by 4yr4mo old kid. In the first clip, the kid speaks first, in the second--second. 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. -- Do you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! 2. [Leafing through the animal picture book] -- Sharks eat fish, like mackerel. -- Yeah! it's the *macaroni fish*. -- Macaroni fish? -- Yes, if you slice it and fry it, you get macaroni and cheese. Hope everyone is well entertained for the holidays! VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 06:58:06 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:58:06 -0500 Subject: single father Message-ID: There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single fathers would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is much easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. Not so now.
As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. But his priority right now is making his child support payments.
Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading this, the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an isolated incident? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Dec 20 07:22:24 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:22:24 -0800 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812200658.mBJJGYKS029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the past. BB On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: single father > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > fathers > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > much > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > Not so now. > > > >
> As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. >
> > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > this, > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > isolated incident? > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 20 14:02:55 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:02:55 -0800 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <6FCBA3D0-0EC7-42F5-9735-95FA78F69060@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the child's upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which is why the father is making child-support payments. I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to have most of the day-to-day care of the child. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: single father It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the past. BB On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: single father > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > fathers > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > much > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > Not so now. > > > >
> As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. >
> > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > this, > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > isolated incident? > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 15:09:16 2008 From: aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:09:16 -0500 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812201403.mBKBsPOr023445@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) Andrea On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: single father > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: > > "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the > responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one > parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint > custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, > however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the > child's > upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." > > It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which > is why the father is making child-support payments. > > I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to > have most of the day-to-day care of the child. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: single father > > It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he > has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. > > Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the > past. BB > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor > > Subject: single father > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > > fathers > > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > > much > > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > > > Not so now. > > > > > > > >
> > As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. > >
> > > > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > > this, > > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > > isolated incident? > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 15:26:51 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't this just an ambiguity between a compound and an adjective-plus-noun construction, like blackbird and black bird? Or an ambiguity I'm the meaning of "single"? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Andrea Morrow Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:09:16 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] single father My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) Andrea On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: single father > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: > > "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the > responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one > parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint > custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, > however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the > child's > upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." > > It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which > is why the father is making child-support payments. > > I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to > have most of the day-to-day care of the child. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: single father > > It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he > has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. > > Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the > past. BB > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor > > Subject: single father > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > > fathers > > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > > much > > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > > > Not so now. > > > > > > > >
> > As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. > >
> > > > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > > this, > > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > > isolated incident? > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 20 18:01:13 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:01:13 -0500 Subject: political catchphrases of the year Message-ID: Marc Ambinder of The Atlantic has an online poll for the most memorable political catchphrase of 2008: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/yearend_poll_political_catch_p.php The nominees (none of which made Fred Shapiro's list of the top 10 quotes of the year) are: "Fire It Up. Ready to Go." [sic] "Yes We Can." "Therefore, I'm suspending my campaign...." "I'm in it to win it." "A F*$)^* Valuable Thing." As numerous commenters point out, the first catchphrase (used by Obama on the campaign trail) should actually be "Fired up, ready to go." "Fire it up" looks like a mondeggcorn. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 18:27:05 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:27:05 -0500 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812201509.mBKBrrYq025513@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's possible that my sense of single parenthood is messed up and I am just digging myself deeper in by raising the issue. Unfortunately, I don't appear to be alone in this. From the review of recent news reports, about the same number of references to "single father" identify the mother as missing or nonexistent ("not in the children's lives") as fail to refer to the mother at all. From the first 50, I found only one case where a "single father" was identified as living with his girlfriend (or any other spouse-like entity). Although this particular father had a 6 month old and a two year old child, no mention was made in the article whether the "girlfriend" was the mother. Below are several examples of the first kind (no mother). The "Pursuit of Happiness" reference is an exception, as there is no reference to the mother, but it's another "wife left" story.
[Ricky] Martin is now showing the world pictures of his newborn (this summer) twin sons (via People magazine), who were born to a woman whose name is unknown. Reportedly, not a paramour of Martin's, but instead, a mother who birthed the babies and is no longer playing an active role in their lives.
Carl, age 40, is a single father who lives in a small apartment with his four children. One night last November, while the family was sleeping, Carl's wife left. Her note said she'd met someone else. They haven't heard from her since.
Siringi, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in August, is a single father responsible for two children and a brother, said his lawyer, Bruce Hoffer. His mother is due to arrive from Kenya on Friday.
Duniphan said she still is surprised her son-in-law, Army Pfc. Benjamin Silva did not attend the hearing Thursday. Silva, now a single father of two young daughters, was deployed in Iraq at the time of his wife's slaying.
The movie re-teams Smith with Gabriele Muccino, the director who helped make "The Pursuit of Happyness" such a wonderful surprise via Smith's portrait of a single father who'll do anything for his son.
As a single father, Stone Fisher knows the challenges of providing for a family. ... Fisher says he feels fortunate that he has had so much help from his parents, sister and cousin in raising his boys, Jacob, 13, and Gabriel, 9, both of whom live with him.
==
Single parents, for the purpose of this report, include people who may be married but not living with their spouse, as well as other divorced, widowed, or never-married people.
Elsewhere, the Census identifies a "custodial parent" as one entitled to child support (aside from the less common instances when the economic balance of the parents precludes child support).
The reason most often cited for not having a legal child support agreement by the 6.6 million custodial parents without them was that they did not feel the need to go to court and make it legal (32 percent).
Number of single fathers in 2000, up from 393,000 in 1970. There was roughly one single father for every five single mothers in 2000, compared with about one for every nine in 1970. Among these fathers ... 45 percent were divorced; 34 percent had never married; 17 percent were married with an absent spouse; and 4 percent were widowed.
=== Overall, on the surface, the US Census is neutral as to the status of the other parent. But, from the context, it is clear that the parents with whom the children live are the "single parents". It is not clear how the Census would handle those couples that divide parenting time exactly equally, but from what I've seen so far, the terms "singe" and "custodial" are often interchangeable in Census reports. In all other cases, only one parent can legally be the custodial parent, irrespectively of how they arrange the parenting time (that is, it is possible for a parent to have primary custody of children who spent less than half the time at that parent's home; the IRS would consider this situation different, but the Census does not). So children may spend 70% of the time at the father's home and the Census would still not count him as a single father if he does not have primary custody. The class is between administrative, legal and socially-constructed definitions. My original query concerned the apparent increase in separation between the latter, which is maleable, and the other two, which are fairly close to being set in stone (in the past, the usage would have been fairly similar across all three). Your statements only strengthens this perception. (The Census would count neither you nor your former husband as single parents, because the custodial parent is not unmarried.) Please note that I am not attaching any affect or moral judgment to the term. I am strictly looking at the context of its usage. It is possible that, if the social use of the term is changing, the administrative definition will have to evolve as well. VS-) Andrea Morrow wrote: > My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our > 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a > "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child > support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single > dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that > odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) > Andrea ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 19:04:50 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:04:50 +0000 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <494D38F9.5020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: I still don't see a linguistic problem here. You can also find cites for "lighthouse keeping" and "light housekeeping"--so what? Both are correct English, they just mean different things. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Victor Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:27:05 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] single father It's possible that my sense of single parenthood is messed up and I am just digging myself deeper in by raising the issue. Unfortunately, I don't appear to be alone in this. From the review of recent news reports, about the same number of references to "single father" identify the mother as missing or nonexistent ("not in the children's lives") as fail to refer to the mother at all. From the first 50, I found only one case where a "single father" was identified as living with his girlfriend (or any other spouse-like entity). Although this particular father had a 6 month old and a two year old child, no mention was made in the article whether the "girlfriend" was the mother. Below are several examples of the first kind (no mother). The "Pursuit of Happiness" reference is an exception, as there is no reference to the mother, but it's another "wife left" story.
[Ricky] Martin is now showing the world pictures of his newborn (this summer) twin sons (via People magazine), who were born to a woman whose name is unknown. Reportedly, not a paramour of Martin's, but instead, a mother who birthed the babies and is no longer playing an active role in their lives.
Carl, age 40, is a single father who lives in a small apartment with his four children. One night last November, while the family was sleeping, Carl's wife left. Her note said she'd met someone else. They haven't heard from her since.
Siringi, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in August, is a single father responsible for two children and a brother, said his lawyer, Bruce Hoffer. His mother is due to arrive from Kenya on Friday.
Duniphan said she still is surprised her son-in-law, Army Pfc. Benjamin Silva did not attend the hearing Thursday. Silva, now a single father of two young daughters, was deployed in Iraq at the time of his wife's slaying.
The movie re-teams Smith with Gabriele Muccino, the director who helped make "The Pursuit of Happyness" such a wonderful surprise via Smith's portrait of a single father who'll do anything for his son.
As a single father, Stone Fisher knows the challenges of providing for a family. ... Fisher says he feels fortunate that he has had so much help from his parents, sister and cousin in raising his boys, Jacob, 13, and Gabriel, 9, both of whom live with him.
==
Single parents, for the purpose of this report, include people who may be married but not living with their spouse, as well as other divorced, widowed, or never-married people.
Elsewhere, the Census identifies a "custodial parent" as one entitled to child support (aside from the less common instances when the economic balance of the parents precludes child support).
The reason most often cited for not having a legal child support agreement by the 6.6 million custodial parents without them was that they did not feel the need to go to court and make it legal (32 percent).
Number of single fathers in 2000, up from 393,000 in 1970. There was roughly one single father for every five single mothers in 2000, compared with about one for every nine in 1970. Among these fathers ... 45 percent were divorced; 34 percent had never married; 17 percent were married with an absent spouse; and 4 percent were widowed.
=== Overall, on the surface, the US Census is neutral as to the status of the other parent. But, from the context, it is clear that the parents with whom the children live are the "single parents". It is not clear how the Census would handle those couples that divide parenting time exactly equally, but from what I've seen so far, the terms "singe" and "custodial" are often interchangeable in Census reports. In all other cases, only one parent can legally be the custodial parent, irrespectively of how they arrange the parenting time (that is, it is possible for a parent to have primary custody of children who spent less than half the time at that parent's home; the IRS would consider this situation different, but the Census does not). So children may spend 70% of the time at the father's home and the Census would still not count him as a single father if he does not have primary custody. The class is between administrative, legal and socially-constructed definitions. My original query concerned the apparent increase in separation between the latter, which is maleable, and the other two, which are fairly close to being set in stone (in the past, the usage would have been fairly similar across all three). Your statements only strengthens this perception. (The Census would count neither you nor your former husband as single parents, because the custodial parent is not unmarried.) Please note that I am not attaching any affect or moral judgment to the term. I am strictly looking at the context of its usage. It is possible that, if the social use of the term is changing, the administrative definition will have to evolve as well. VS-) Andrea Morrow wrote: > My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our > 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a > "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child > support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single > dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that > odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) > Andrea ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 20 19:38:11 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:38:11 +0000 Subject: political catchphrases of the year In-Reply-To: <200812201811.mBKBsPRf023445@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 20 Dec 2008, at 18:01, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > Marc Ambinder of The Atlantic has an online poll for the most > memorable political catchphrase of 2008: > > http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/yearend_poll_political_catch_p.php > > The nominees (none of which made Fred Shapiro's list of the top 10 > quotes of the year) are: > > "Fire It Up. Ready to Go." [sic] > "Yes We Can." > "Therefore, I'm suspending my campaign...." > "I'm in it to win it." > "A F*$)^* Valuable Thing." As an aside, "Yes, we can" made the German (Gesellschaft für deutsche Sprache) Wort des Jahres shortlist, at place 10. (Also, in German, 'Wort' can also mean '(idiomatic) expression' or '(catch)phrase', in addition to 'word', and the two senses take different plural forms ('Worte' vs 'Wörter'. This is a bit of a grey area, though, as the German list definitely may contain short phrases, but you'd still talk about "Wörter des Jahres".) Best, Chris Waigl hoping that mail.app encodes the iso-8859-1 Umlaute in an ADS-L compatible way ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 21 01:24:29 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:24:29 -0800 Subject: "limerick" Message-ID: The quote refers to the unutterably trite works of the character "Jem Casey" in Flann O'Brien's _At Swim-Two-Birds_ (1939).  Since none of them are true limericks, the intended sense seems to be "any banal, strongly rhythmic verse; a doggerel."   1984 Maureen Waters _The Comic Irishman_ (Albany, N.Y.: SUNY Press) 127: While the People affect a cultivated regard for literature, they secretly prefer the limericks of Jem Casey, who eulogizes a "pint of plain" as the only friend of the working man.   At the time of writing, Dr. Waters was Assistant Professor of English at Queens College, CUNY.   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From email1 at FOLKLORE.MS Sun Dec 21 04:03:00 2008 From: email1 at FOLKLORE.MS (John-Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:03:00 -0600 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Message-ID: Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 05:21:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:21:30 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <239AEA55-98DC-46AF-8E48-CA263BD5A75A@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Alison Murie >>Subject: singular "small fry" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, >>of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is >>perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass >>noun, like "scampi." > >this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual >use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a >count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural >syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small >fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". Here's another, from today's NYT Magazine (Randy Cohen's "The Ethicist"): While the rules [for NYC bus seating priority] seem to permit free-riding small fry to take a seat on a local bus, ethics urges them and everyone hale and hearty to offer that seat to any passenger who, for whatever reason--age, infirmity, advanced pregnancy, sheer weariness--genuinely needs it. Assuming "them" is coindexed with "small fry" (and not, say, with "the rules"), this is pretty clearly a plural "small fry". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 21 07:38:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:38:57 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191652.mBJBrMmQ029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Engelhardt's phrase sounds fully grammatical, as well as perfectly clear and reasonable, to me. What should he have written, "He was just small fry" or what? Is he perhaps a BE speaker? Or some kind of alien? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: singular "small fry" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, > of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is > perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass > noun, like "scampi." > AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 21 11:48:37 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:48:37 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John-Patrick : > Hello, > > I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after > the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of > Limericks": > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 > > > This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy > of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone > find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? > > Any help is appreciated. > > Yours, > > John Patrick WorldCat has: A book of limericks, Edward Lear 1888 English Book Book xxii p., 1 l., [25]-85, 81 p., 2 l., [7]-37 p., 2 l., 7-41 p. illus. 20 cm. Boston, Little, Brown, and company Get This Item # Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 59 # Find this in your library Connect to the catalog at your library # External Resources: # Link to external web site Cite This Item Find Related More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Find Items About: Lear, Edward, (max: 498) Title: A book of limericks, Author(s): Lear, Edward, 1812-1888. Publication: Boston, Little, Brown, and company Year: 1888 Description: xxii p., 1 l., [25]-85, 81 p., 2 l., [7]-37 p., 2 l., 7-41 p. illus. 20 cm. Language: English Standard No: LCCN: 41-38057 SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Limericks. Note(s): Includes music. Class Descriptors: LC: PR4879.L2 Responsibility: by Edward Lear, illustrated by the author. Document Type: Book Entry: 19720622 Update: 20080902 Accession No: OCLC: 338649 Database: WorldCat And it's available (from the NY Public Library copy) at Internet Archive: http://firstsearch.oclc.org/WebZ/FSPage?pagetype=return_frameset:sessionid=fsapp9-39463-fozmr47y-5v9tms:entitypagenum=7:0:entityframedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archive.org%2Fdetails%2Fbookoflimericks00lear:entityframedtitle=WorldCat:entityframedtimeout=15:entityopenTitle=:entityopenAuthor=:entityopenNumber=: Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 21 12:20:31 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:20:31 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT Message-ID: Latest installment of Grant Barrett's yearly buzzword list, lavishly fonted in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/weekinreview/buzzwords2008.html Also, blog discussion, with input from GB said to be forthcoming, at: http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/whats-your-buzzword-of-2008/ Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are not auspicious. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 12:24:19 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:24:19 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a really important and really strange antedating. It seems unlikely to be legitimate on a number of counts: such a big antedating of OED for a word that they would have put some work into tracing (James Murray inquired in Notes and Queries as to its origin); it's published by a major American publisher but I can't find any mention of it in the four big U.S. newspaper databases; I have never found any other mention of the word "limerick" in conjunction with Edward Lear anywhere near that early. Yet WorldCat and the Library of Congress catalog and the Yale catalog and the Stanford catalog all date it 1888. I'll try to take a look at the Yale copy. I'm guessing it could be a later printing of Lear's "Book of Nonsense" with a new title but still retaining the 1888 copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of John-Patrick [email1 at FOLKLORE.MS] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 21 12:27:37 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:27:37 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT In-Reply-To: <20081221122031.GA27789@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the shout-out. > Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are > not auspicious. I specifically asked that we get some kind of exhortation to the readers that the comments take a turn for the positive, but the editors demurred. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 12:39:21 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:39:21 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CA54@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the later-printing theory. WorldCat and LC and Yale and Stanford don't say the date of publication was 1888, they just say the copyright date was 1888. And the copyright holder is a different company from the publisher. Little, Brown probably reprinted it at some much later date with the old copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED This is a really important and really strange antedating. It seems unlikely to be legitimate on a number of counts: such a big antedating of OED for a word that they would have put some work into tracing (James Murray inquired in Notes and Queries as to its origin); it's published by a major American publisher but I can't find any mention of it in the four big U.S. newspaper databases; I have never found any other mention of the word "limerick" in conjunction with Edward Lear anywhere near that early. Yet WorldCat and the Library of Congress catalog and the Yale catalog and the Stanford catalog all date it 1888. I'll try to take a look at the Yale copy. I'm guessing it could be a later printing of Lear's "Book of Nonsense" with a new title but still retaining the 1888 copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of John-Patrick [email1 at FOLKLORE.MS] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 21 12:43:46 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:43:46 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT In-Reply-To: <49D00D64-69D9-4F1D-8EE4-796152269343@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 07:27:37AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > >> Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are >> not auspicious. > > I specifically asked that we get some kind of exhortation to the > readers that the comments take a turn for the positive, but the > editors demurred. Wouldn't have made any difference; people would still use the space to complain about "hopefully", text-messaging lingo, and Those Kids Today. As you know :-( Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Sun Dec 21 13:14:27 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:14:27 -0500 Subject: All Words Pronounced - forvo.com Message-ID: This mail item was in Anu Garg's weekly AWAD issue: From: Forvo.com Team (info forvo.com) Subject: Forvo, the pronunciation guide, presentation My name is Israel, from a new pronunciation project called Forvo . What's about? We have created a database for word pronunciations, all the words in all the languages. That is our goal. In the near future we hope Forvo becomes a useful tool to learn languages and be a huge database of pronunciations. (Now we have 70000+ pronunciations in 80 languages in only 8 months). The recordings are 100% real human natives not text-to-voice applications. I have not investigated the site, but thought it would be interesting to this discussion list. Regards, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 21 14:28:04 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:28:04 -0800 Subject: snow- words Message-ID: my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 21 14:36:58 2008 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:36:58 -0500 Subject: snow- words In-Reply-To: <200812211428.mBLBlDdu006996@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Daughter Esther arriving [after a delay] from Chicago-Midway called it a snowpocalypse. -db On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: snow- words > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter > Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New > York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with > reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, > snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 16:37:58 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:37:58 -0500 Subject: snow- words Message-ID: 1] "typical winter day" (applicable anytime from late November through early April in Upstate NY) 2] "snow days rock!" (actually heard in the wild, via IM, from a first-year school teacher) 3] "where'm I gonna put it?" (usually not heard until at least mid January, same area) -- And slightly OT, an observation: In the process of hand-shoveling our driveway clear of maybe six inches of snow [yesterday], it occurred to me that the depth of snow is, to some degree, dependent on how one has to remove it. If the task is to be done by hand shovel, as I was doing, the depth might be, say, 10 inches. If a snow-blower is employed, it's perhaps 7, maybe 8, inches. If one is to pay a modest sum to a neighbor child to clear it, you'll accept that it was -- depending on the quality of the job and the rate charged -- anywhere from 5 to 12 inches. If you need to hire someone with a snow plow, you may say, to anyone foolish enough to listen, that it's only a dusting and should be left to melt on its own. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. arnold asked: >my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter >Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New >York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with >reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, >snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 17:01:57 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:01:57 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been getting in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the guys, who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about what kind of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 19:17:56 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:17:56 EST Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been > getting > in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the > guys, > who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record > (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about > what kind > of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. > dh > > Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. > Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 21:01:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:01:50 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. LH > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > >> An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been >> getting >> in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the >> guys, >> who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record >> (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about >> what kind >> of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. >> dh >> >> Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. >> Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > >************** >One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, >Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& >icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 21:43:07 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome Message-ID: A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, or so it seems to me. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 22:38:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:38:15 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome In-Reply-To: <3140B77B0C15102B0731009012@Seamus> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0500 12/21/08, Doug Harris wrote: >A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" >While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, >preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, >or so it seems to me. >dh > > Well, if condoms, or practicing safe sex more generally, can prevent AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome), parents can presumably prevent SIDS. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Dec 22 02:11:32 2008 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:11:32 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome In-Reply-To: <200812212143.mBLBlDQt009164@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" >While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, >preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, >or so it seems to me. A syndrome is not a statistical entity comprising a large number of cases; it is a group of symptoms identified as a single condition and occurring in a given individual. As Cancerweb's online medical dictionary puts it (http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?syndrome), a syndrome is "A set of signs or a series of events occurring together that often point to a single disease or condition as the cause." So if one can prevent the common cold, which means not preventing the very existence of the entity called "the common cold" and its existence anywhere at any time, but rather preventing an individual from being affected by it, one can prevent SIDS, by which is meant preventing an individual occurrence of the syndrome. (Infant death is not always SIDS; there are many other causes of infant death. The diagnosis of SIDS means that the general details of the case match other cases of SIDS and no other cause has been identified -- it's a diagnosis of exclusion.) There are quite a few other syndromes out there. There's fetal alcohol syndrome, which pregnant women prevent by avoiding drinking. There's metabolic syndrome, which is a precursor to diabetes and can be avoided with lifestyle management. There's Down syndrome, which can't be prevented, just screened for. And on and on... Each syndrome is a condition, identified as a unitary phenomenon and affecting individuals, and prevention means preventing an individual from developing that syndrome. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Mon Dec 22 03:39:19 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:39:19 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: Well, I don't think it is a new quote....A quick google search finds this one from 2005 in USA Today on a story about wounded vets: Aug 10, 2005 ... He says he felt that "I'm useless to the world, because all I know how to do is shoot a rifle and run around in the woods. ... I am sure there are earlier ones. -----Original Message----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. LH > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > >> An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been >> getting >> in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the >> guys, >> who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record >> (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about >> what kind >> of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. >> dh >> >> Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. >> Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Mon Dec 22 03:40:08 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:40:08 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: Test message ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 03:57:46 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:57:46 EST Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: Thanks for the explanation, but, well, the subject line suggests that it is being nominated for Scariest Quote of the Year. Is that the same contest or a different one? There are now at least a dozen "--OTY" "competitions" sloshing around. It is hard to tell the noise from the amusing trivia. In a message dated 12/21/08 4:02:08 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? > > I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. > > LH > > > > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > > > > >>  An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been > >>  getting > >>  in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of > the > >>  guys, > >>  who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile > record > >>  (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried > about > >>  what kind > >>  of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he > said. > >>  dh > >> > >>  Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. > >>  Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > >> > >>  ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > > >************** > >One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, > >Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > >icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 04:02:15 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:02:15 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: "--OTY" competition does not necessarily require that the "--" be new, or linguistically interesting, or even particularly memorable. Every bush-lipped truthiness may have its day, and indeed many do. In a message dated 12/21/08 10:39:35 PM, djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET writes: > Well, I don't think it is a new quote....A quick google search finds > this one from 2005 in USA Today on a story about wounded vets: > > Aug 10, 2005 ... He says he felt that "I'm useless to the world, because > all I know how to do is shoot a rifle and run around in the woods. ... > > > I am sure there are earlier ones. > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 22 12:21:42 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:21:42 -0500 Subject: More on Alleged 1888 "Limerick" Occurrence Message-ID: The web site of the Limerick Special Interest Group addresses the 1888 dating of the _Book of Limericks_: The truth is that Little, Brown, a publisher of law books and other "respectable'' works, did not publish its first piece of fiction until 1896 and it is unlikely that it would have published Lear at all in 1888 (the year of Lear's death). It acquired in 1898 the general list of Roberts Brothers, which had published Nonsense Books in 1888, and Little, Brown, in all likelihood, included the Little, Brown title page with the newly obtained sections of the 1888 Nonsense Books in a subsequent printing. Since Little, Brown published A Book of Limericks copyrighted 1908, the publication of this edition would have been 1898-1908, probably closer to the mid point. This edition contains sections from Lear's books entitled "A Book of Nonsense," "One Hundred Nonsense Pictures and Rhymes," "Nonsense Songs," and "Laughable Lyrics." Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 22 14:02:34 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:02:34 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote In-Reply-To: <200812220357.mBLBlDe6006993@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's almost enough to start an "--OTY of the Year" competition. Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 10:57 PM, wrote: > There are now at least a dozen "--OTY" "competitions" sloshing around. It > is > hard to tell the noise from the amusing trivia. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:09:57 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:09:57 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMSu018412@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > ... 2. [Leafing through the animal picture book] -- Sharks eat > fish, like > mackerel. -- Yeah! it's the *macaroni fish*. -- Macaroni fish? -- Yes, > if you slice it and fry it, you get macaroni and cheese. delightful. a fair number of "macaroni fish" hits, but only a very few that seem to refer to some kind of fish. most are for dishes (like "macaroni fish pie") that have both macaroni and fish as ingredients. a few for a post-WW2 British "austerity dish", the nature of which i can't quite determine, though i'd guess it was macaroni somehow treated as mock fish. plus a few for "macaroni fish" as a crafts project -- pieces of dry pasta glued together to make a fish. but then there are a few sites (from evident non-native speakers) with things like the following: KITP - Egypt [EG] Want to buy Fish, Butter Dear Sir We are a company deals in field of food stuff and we would like to import the following items: 1- Haring fish. Origin: Netherlands - Norway Specifications: 3-5 fishes / 1 kgm. 2- Mackerel fish. 3- Macaroni fish. 4- Natural butter. Origin: Australia - New Zealand - Netherlands Specifications: Not salted Please send your price and specifications. Best regards, Adel El Mohandes ..... clearly "macaroni fish" here is not mackerel, since "mackerel fish" is also on this (short) list. so it's puzzling. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:57:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:57:51 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMSu018412@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > -- Do > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard variant, not an error). Too bigger of a bag and you end up packing too much stuff into it and killing your shoulders and back by the end of the day! [note "of" variant of exceptional degree marking] www.flickr.com/groups/timbuk2/discuss/72157604100642703/ ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 But in this example, it doesn't occurs, i can't draw a polygon that is too bigger than its rectangle. When i try, this message (above) appears. wikimapia.org/forum/?t=2537 the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing each ... www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. html an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html even to the point of allowing a preceding determiner: Is 15 years a too bigger age difference?? I am 22 he is 37? answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080326042005AAkFuhS arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:11:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:11:12 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812221657.mBMBmaGk019779@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2008, at 8:57 AM, i wrote about "too bigger". for a parallel case, see: AZ, 9/18/06: How safer is America today?: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003593.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:18:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:18:12 -0800 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? In-Reply-To: <200812200403.mBJJGY8q029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google > hits ... > > ... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > instrument no longer obviously resembles one? but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 18:15:10 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:15:10 +0000 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? Message-ID: Mishearing AND especially misremembering. ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: Re: [ADS-L] cuff/cup eggcorns? Sent: Dec 22, 2008 12:18 PM On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google > hits ... > > ... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > instrument no longer obviously resembles one? but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 18:51:37 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns Message-ID: Certainly not Morely. dh How safer is America today? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 22 19:08:35 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:08:35 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? In-Reply-To: <69BE2F26-D13A-444B-899C-931330AD8BAD@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Herb Stahlke >>Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google >>hits ... >> >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? > >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. > >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. > But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" in this use. I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than frequent words like "cup". The OED, for example, has many more entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of some sport. "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists or ankles with a lock. Granted, the last of these may be more transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup". The general correlation is from Zipf: more frequent words tend to be more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, than less frequent ones. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 22 21:27:18 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:27:18 -0500 Subject: No snail mail in colonial Maine Message-ID: A Google Books bit from "A History of the Towns of Bristol and Bremen in the State of Maine ...", by John Johnston - Bristol (Me.) - 1873: Another small indentation, a mile or more north of Round pond, constitutes Muscongus harbor, so called, into which a email stream empties from Muscongus ... (The "a email" in my browser display is transformed into "? email" when I "Paste Special Unformatted Text" into Eudora.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 00:45:58 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:45:58 -0800 Subject: antedating: "staging area" Message-ID: OED has this important military term only from 1945.   1918 (July 27) in  _Records of the World War: Field Orders 1918, 5th Division_ (Washington, D.C.: G.P.O., 1921) 35: In principle, the elements will only remain at the staging area one day or less depending on the hour of their arrival.   1919 _Official History of the 82nd Division, American Expeditionary Forces_  (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill) 257: Upon the relief of the Division in the Argonne, the Military Police force was divided into three sections. One went ahead to the staging area and assisted the placing of units when they arrived.   1921 Hugh Stewart _The New Zealand Division, 1916-1919_ (Auckland: Whitcombe and Tombs) 252: The 4th Brigade reached a staging area north of Hazebrouck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 23 00:57:45 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:57:45 -0800 Subject: my new blog Message-ID: i'm now blogging on linguistic matters (and, occasionally, on some other things) at http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com as with Language Log, some ADS-L postings will be repackaged on my blog. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 23 01:04:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:04:02 -0800 Subject: cuff/cup Message-ID: i realize now that such reshapings (in favor of a more frequent and familiar item, even when that doesn't improve the semantics) came up before on Language Log, under the heading "demi-eggcorns": AZ, 10/15/07: Cow-towing to Celsius: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005026.html AZ, 2/16/08: For you, broccoli rabbi, but NO BIKES: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005392.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:55:00 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:55:00 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812221657.mBMBmaGi019779@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > > -- Do > > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! > > this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so > bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard > variant, not an error). > > ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is > too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... > bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 > This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much > bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: > > If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them > "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing > each ... > www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. > html > > an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what > looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): > > It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. > www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html > Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:56:06 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:56:06 -0500 Subject: resend not quite eggcorns Message-ID: (sorry! forgot to switch off the "rich text") On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > > -- Do > > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! > > this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so > bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard > variant, not an error). > > ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is > too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... > bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > > the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much > bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: > > If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them > "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing > each ... > www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. > html > > an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what > looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): > > It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. > www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 05:07:37 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800 Subject: side-straddle hop Message-ID: Incredibly not in OED.   1919 _Twelfth U.S. Infantry, 1798-1919_ ( N.Y.: Knickerbocker Press)   325: "K" Company claims to be the best in the execution of "side-straddle hop."    1919 [George W. Small, ed.] _Story of the Forty-Seventh: Being the History of a Regiment of Heavy Artillery_  (Baltimore: pvtly. ptd.) 75: (Colonel) Hobbs ventured out on deck just as the ship was doing the "side-straddle-hop."   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 08:27:52 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:27:52 EST Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering Message-ID: Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that misremembering is at least as important as mishearing. One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the first time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it actively, one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropriate. Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency sense that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one is likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semantics are too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it as a unified term ("signified" = "referent") without parsing it much at all. These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices. There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," and people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downtown and which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpful here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their name to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically about the same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likely to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misremember "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spanish "culo"). In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > > > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender:       American Dialect Society > >>Poster:       Herb Stahlke > >>Subject:      cuff/cup eggcorns? > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."  Google > >>hits ... > >> > >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?  Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? > > > >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. > > > >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. > > > But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" > in this use.  I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes > more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words > like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than > frequent words like "cup".  The OED, for example, has many more > entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of > which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that > may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the > question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood > pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic > relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of > some sport.  "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and > is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of > one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists > or ankles with a lock.  Granted, the last of these may be more > transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), > and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less > likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".  The > general correlation is from Zipf:  more frequent words tend to be > more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, > than less frequent ones. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 14:22:29 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:22:29 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering In-Reply-To: <200812230828.mBN2t6Yx022443@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I searched a couple other expressions with "cuff", "off the cuff" and "like a dog on the cuff." "Off the cup" gets 103,000 hits, but the only one even remotely close to "off the cuff" is a Starbucks pun in a Seattle Times article: A local spokeswoman suggested that Starbucks' off-the-cup opinions leaned left, and that if the company wants righties to buy lattes, it should put conservative opinions on cups. There are all of seven hits for "dog on the cup," none of which are even close in meaning to the expression with "cuff." Herb On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:27 AM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that=20 > misremembering is at least as important as mishearing.=20 > > One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the firs= > t=20 > time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a=20 > signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some= > =20 > kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it activel= > y,=20 > one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropria= > te.=20 > Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors=20 > ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and=20 > importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency= > sense=20 > that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one= > is=20 > likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure=20 > cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semanti= > cs are=20 > too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect=20 > most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it a= > s a=20 > unified term ("signified" =3D "referent") without parsing it much at all. > > These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices.=20 > There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," an= > d=20 > people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic=20 > material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downto= > wn and=20 > which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpfu= > l=20 > here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their=20= > name=20 > to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less=20 > trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically abo= > ut the=20 > same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. > > One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likel= > y=20 > to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by= > =20 > only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone=20 > would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue=20 > (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misre= > member=20 > "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spani= > sh=20 > "culo"). > > In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >> > >> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >>Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 American Dialect Society >> >>Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Herb Stahlke >> >>Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 cuff/cup eggcorns? >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >> >> >> >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >> >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."=A0 Google >> >>hits ... >> >> >> >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?=A0 Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >> >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >> >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >> >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? >> > >> >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. >> > >> >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. >> > >> But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" >> in this use.=A0 I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes >> more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words >> like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than >> frequent words like "cup".=A0 The OED, for example, has many more >> entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of >> which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that >> may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the >> question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood >> pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic >> relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of >> some sport.=A0 "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and >> is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of >> one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists >> or ankles with a lock.=A0 Granted, the last of these may be more >> transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), >> and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less >> likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".=A0 The >> general correlation is from Zipf:=A0 more frequent words tend to be >> more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, >> than less frequent ones. >>=20 >> LH >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>=20 >>=20 > > > > > ************** > One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,=20 > Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp& > icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolcom00000025) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 14:25:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:25:18 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE "distributive _be_" Message-ID: Thirty-ish, black female speaker: Whenever she start arguing, it usually _be's_ at her house. "Be's," though perceived as stereotypical, is actually rare enough to be worthy of note. Among midle-class BE speakers, "be's" is used in hyperblackenized joking speech, e.g., "Thangs be's that way." The real aphorism is, "Thangs be that way." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 16:57:47 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:57:47 -0800 Subject: Festivus Message-ID: It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a Deeply Satisfying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage!   And now to the carols.   JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 17:05:14 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:05:14 +0000 Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering In-Reply-To: <200812231422.mBNBlxOS014253@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hmm. Cuff links for Chrismas? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: cuff/cup and misremembering > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I searched a couple other expressions with "cuff", "off the cuff" and > "like a dog on the cuff." "Off the cup" gets 103,000 hits, but the > only one even remotely close to "off the cuff" is a Starbucks pun in a > Seattle Times article: > > A local spokeswoman suggested that Starbucks' off-the-cup opinions > leaned left, and that if the company wants righties to buy lattes, it > should put conservative opinions on cups. > > There are all of seven hits for "dog on the cup," none of which are > even close in meaning to the expression with "cuff." > > Herb > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:27 AM, wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >> Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that=20 >> misremembering is at least as important as mishearing.=20 >> >> One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the firs= >> t=20 >> time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a=20 >> signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some= >> =20 >> kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it activel= >> y,=20 >> one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropria= >> te.=20 >> Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors=20 >> ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and=20 >> importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency= >> sense=20 >> that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one= >> is=20 >> likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure=20 >> cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semanti= >> cs are=20 >> too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect=20 >> most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it a= >> s a=20 >> unified term ("signified" =3D "referent") without parsing it much at all. >> >> These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices.=20 >> There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," an= >> d=20 >> people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic=20 >> material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downto= >> wn and=20 >> which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpfu= >> l=20 >> here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their=20= >> name=20 >> to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less=20 >> trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically abo= >> ut the=20 >> same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. >> >> One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likel= >> y=20 >> to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by= >> =20 >> only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone=20 >> would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue=20 >> (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misre= >> member=20 >> "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spani= >> sh=20 >> "culo"). >> >> In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >> >>> At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>>On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >>>> >>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>>Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 American Dialect Society >>>>>Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Herb Stahlke >>>>>Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 cuff/cup eggcorns? >>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ----- >>>>> >>>>>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >>>>>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."=A0 Google >>>>>hits ... >>>>> >>>>>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?=A0 Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >>>>>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >>>>>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >>>>>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? >>>> >>>>but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. >>>> >>>>this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. >>>> >>> But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" >>> in this use.=A0 I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes >>> more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words >>> like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than >>> frequent words like "cup".=A0 The OED, for example, has many more >>> entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of >>> which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that >>> may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the >>> question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood >>> pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic >>> relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of >>> some sport.=A0 "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and >>> is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of >>> one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists >>> or ankles with a lock.=A0 Granted, the last of these may be more >>> transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), >>> and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less >>> likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".=A0 The >>> general correlation is from Zipf:=A0 more frequent words tend to be >>> more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, >>> than less frequent ones. >>>=20 >>> LH >>>=20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>=20 >>>=20 >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,=20 >> Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp& >> icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolcom00000025) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 18:09:15 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:09:15 -0600 Subject: Festivus In-Reply-To: <200812231657.mBNBvQe5006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've already pulled the aluminum pole from the crawl space. Scot On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Festivus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a=A0Deeply > Satisf= > ying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage! > =A0 > And now to the carols. > =A0 > JL=0A=0A=0A > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:05:39 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:39 EST Subject: Festivus Message-ID: Festivirus seems more appropriate for this time of year. In a message dated 12/23/08 11:58:03 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a Deeply > Satisfying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage! >   > And now to the carols. >   > JL > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:36:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:36:57 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812230255.mBN2t6SN022443@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's certainly a real possibility, Mark, seem like to me. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: not quite eggcorns > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: >> >> > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. >> > -- Do >> > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! >> >> this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so >> bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard >> variant, not an error). >> >> ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is >> too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... >> bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 >> > > This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > > >> the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much >> bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: >> >> If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them >> "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing >> each ... >> www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. >> html >> >> an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what >> looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): >> >> It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. >> www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html >> > > Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of > going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 23:07:08 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:07:08 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200811111723.mABBp42R007514@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". Interesting. Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, is there no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com is infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. But in m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the phonetics show an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 03:19:07 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:19:07 -0600 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812232307.mBNBvQ4B006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] for [k] by some writers. Scot On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: opportYOUnity > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". Interesting. > > Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, is there > no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com is > infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. But in > m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the phonetics show > an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. > > I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech > impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 03:27:34 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:27:34 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240319.mBNL6dgT014251@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the same: klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to figure out how to read. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > >> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech > impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > > Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] > for [k] > by some writers. > > Scot > > > > On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >> Interesting. >> >> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >> is there >> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >> is >> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >> But in >> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >> phonetics show >> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >> >> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 24 03:59:55 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:59:55 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <1A345B97-BFCD-4C78-9161-DB1AE253C6AA@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like "clause". Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" rhyme with?) Joel At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the same: >klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >figure out how to read. BB > >On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > >> >>>I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >>Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>for [k] >>by some writers. >> >>Scot >> >> >> >>On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> >>>A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>Interesting. >>> >>>Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>is there >>>no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>is >>>infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>But in >>>m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>phonetics show >>>an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>> >>>I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 04:05:30 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:05:30 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240400.mBNBvQpW014675@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" > ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and > "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like > "clause". > > Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" > rhyme with?) > > Joel > > At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >> same: >> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >> figure out how to read. BB >> >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >> >>> >>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>> speech >>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>> for [k] >>> by some writers. >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>> is there >>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>> is >>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>> But in >>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>> phonetics show >>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>> >>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 04:38:15 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:38:15 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240405.mBNBvQ9t006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but > all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB If I'm not mistaken, they're also known to "hear" differences that they do not produce. For example, I have the same vowel in "male" and "man", but one is thought of as a long A sound, and the other a short A sound. This notion invalidates a lot of dialect survey work that was done by asking people questions on paper (or over the internet), like "do you say 'Mary', 'merry', and 'marry' the same way?" Not that many people don't say them differently, but many people may say them the same way but think they say them differently because they are affected by the spelling (or other factors). Randy (in Cincinnati, OH, over the holidays) > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >> "clause". >> >> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >> rhyme with?) >> >> Joel >> >> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>> same: >>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>> figure out how to read. BB >>> >>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>> speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>> for [k] >>>> by some writers. >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>> is there >>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>>> is >>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>> But in >>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>> phonetics show >>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 12:43:59 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:43:59 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240438.mBNL6djn014251@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I too pronounce "male" or "mail" with the vowel in "man" so it sounds like "mal". I think it's more prevalent than one would think. It's hard to say the long a as in "may" followed by an "l". In transitioning I tend to put a ~ool or ~yool (short oo as in wool) in there. mayool. In m-w.com the speakers say "Santa Claus" and "flaw" with the "awe" sound. But the speakers say "claws" "clause" "awe" "law""laud" "applaud" all with the "ah" vowel sound yet they have the same phonetic symbol. This is not right in terms of the majority USA accent, which is approximately 60% awe and 40% ah for caught being said as cot (assuming this generalizes). M-w.com is a favorite of mine, but this is a error to me. In the pronunciation guide the sample word for this sound is "law". But "law" is pronounced incorrectly as "lah" ~laa. I wish they would straighten this out. In all my years I've never heard Santa Claus said as ~Klaaz (ah vowel) before. Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect pronunciation. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:38:15 -0500 > From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but >> all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB > > If I'm not mistaken, they're also known to "hear" differences that > they do not produce. For example, I have the same vowel in "male" and > "man", but one is thought of as a long A sound, and the other a short > A sound. This notion invalidates a lot of dialect survey work that > was done by asking people questions on paper (or over the internet), > like "do you say 'Mary', 'merry', and 'marry' the same way?" Not that > many people don't say them differently, but many people may say them > the same way but think they say them differently because they are > affected by the spelling (or other factors). > > Randy > (in Cincinnati, OH, over the holidays) > >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >>> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >>> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >>> "clause". >>> >>> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >>> rhyme with?) >>> >>> Joel >>> >>> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>>> same: >>>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>>> figure out how to read. BB >>>> >>>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>>> speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>>> >>>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>>> for [k] >>>>> by some writers. >>>>> >>>>> Scot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>>> is there >>>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>>>> is >>>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>>> But in >>>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>>> phonetics show >>>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 24 14:26:02 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:26:02 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/24/2008 07:43 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect >pronunciation. Isn't it the Pennsylvania Dutch American dialect pronunciation? :-) (I was joshing when I suggested it.) But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill", and differently from "mal". (Of course, in the 18th century it was "malefeasance", although I don't know how that was pronounced.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 15:30:57 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:30:57 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity Message-ID: Well, literally this would only be true of, say, a high-pitched fart that only a dog could hear. Maybe what BB meant to say is that speakers vary unknowingly between sounds (such as [a] and "open o") without realizing it. In the language of linguistics, they are allophones in free variation (a concept that Tom Zurinskas apparently does not understand despite years of exposure on ads-l, leading him to insult gratuitouslyt people who have a different phonemic system from his own). ------Original Message------ From: Benjamin Barrett Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: Re: [ADS-L] opportYOUnity Sent: Dec 23, 2008 11:05 PM Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" > ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and > "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like > "clause". > > Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" > rhyme with?) > > Joel > > At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >> same: >> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >> figure out how to read. BB >> >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >> >>> >>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>> speech >>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>> for [k] >>> by some writers. >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>> is there >>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>> is >>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>> But in >>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>> phonetics show >>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>> >>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 24 16:20:38 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:20:38 -0500 Subject: Early 2008 WOTY Nominations Posted Message-ID: Early nominations for the American Dialect Society's 2008 word of the year vote are now available, including three batches from society members who specialize in following language trends, and a list of the most-nominated terms from the general public in the US and Canada. http://www.americandialect.org/woty2008/ All nominations will be considered for the American Dialect Society's 19th annual word-of-the-year (WOTY) vote, the longest-running vote of its kind in the Anglophone world and the WOTY event up to which all others lead. It will be held in San Francisco on Friday, January 9, 2009, and is open at no cost to members of the press and public. Detailed information on where and when the final vote will be held is here: http://www.americandialect.org/2009/ Judging by the nomination trends, two major events preoccupied North America over the last 12 months and dominated its discourse. An impressive 51% of the nominations were related to the American presidential election, including 13.5% that were plays on Barack Obama's name, 2.7%% that were related to "Joe" (as in "Joe the Plumber" or "Joe Sixpack"), and 2.2% that were related to the name of Sarah Palin. Coming in a distant second were the 19% of the nominations related to the ongoing financial crisis. The top individual nominations from the public so far, in order of popularity: 1. "change" 11.7% 2. "bailout" 9% 3. "maverick" 4% 4. "to vet; vetting" 3.6% 5. "Obama-nation"/"Obomination"/"Obamination" treated as one item 2.7% 6. (tie) "game-changer," "hope," and "Obamamania" each with 2.2% 7. (tie) "Obamanos" and "you betcha," each with 1.8% 8. (tie) "Joe Six-Pack" and "meh," each with 1.3% More nominations, with definitions and supporting information, are available from these society members: Nominations from Grant Barrett, chair of the American Dialect Society's New Words Committee and its vice president of communications and technology; co-host of the nationwide public radio show "A Way with Words"; and editor of the "Double-Tongued Dictionary." http://americandialect.org/Barrett-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Nominations from Wayne Glowka, Dean of the School of Arts and Humanities at Reinhardt College in Waleska, Georgia, and former editor of the "Among the New Words" column of the society's journal American Speech. http://americandialect.org/Glowka-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Nominations from Ben Zimmer, executive producer of the Visual Thesaurus, and member of the Executive Council of the American Dialect Society. http://americandialect.org/Zimmer-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Media contact information for each nominator is included in the files above. Nominations from the public can still be sent to . The best "word of the year" candidates will be: --new or newly popular in 2008 --widely or prominently used in 2008 --indicative or reflective of the national discourse Multi-word compounds or phrases that act as single lexical items are welcomed, as well. Sub-categories for "word of the year" include most useful, most creative, most unnecessary, most outrageous, most euphemistic, most likely to succeed, and least likely to succeed. The vote is informed by the members' expertise in the study of words, but it is far from a solemn occasion. Members in the 119-year-old academic organization include linguists, lexicographers, etymologists, grammarians, historians, researchers, writers, authors, editors, professors, university students, and independent scholars. In conducting the vote, they act in fun and do not pretend to be officially inducting words into the English language. Instead, they are highlighting that language change is normal, ongoing, and entertaining. Previous winners can be found here: http://www.americandialect.org/woty/ The American Dialect Society is open to all persons worldwide who have an interest in language. Membership includes four annual issues of the society's academic journal, one complete scholarly work per year from the "Publication of the American Dialect Society" series, and a subscription to its email newsletter. There is a discounted membership rate for students at any academic level, who are especially encouraged to join. More information about membership: http://www.dukeupress.edu/ads/ ... Grant Barrett http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 24 16:38:24 2008 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:38:24 -0800 Subject: OED update Message-ID: Here's a new column of me having fun with the OED updates--a column I have longed to write for years: http://www.good.is/?p=14327 Happy Festivus, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Dec 24 16:44:32 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:44:32 -0500 Subject: side-straddle hop Message-ID: Not since my high-school-football-playing days in the early 1960s have I heard or thought about that term! Actually, I didn't THINK ABOUT it then--but I'm pretty sure I analyzed the immediate constituents as "side" + "straddle hop"; so I would have puncuated the term as "side straddle-hop." But I'm sure Jonathan is right. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800 >From: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: side-straddle hop > > >Incredibly not in OED. 1919 _Twelfth U.S. Infantry, 1798-1919_ (=A0N.Y.: Knickerbocker Press)=A0= >=A0 325: "K" Company claims to be the best in the execution of "side-stradd= >le hop."=A0 >=A0 >1919 [George W. Small, ed.] _Story of the Forty-Seventh: Being=A0the Histor= >y of a Regiment of Heavy Artillery_ =A0(Baltimore: pvtly. ptd.) 75: (Colone= >l) Hobbs ventured out on deck just as the ship was doing the "side-straddle= >-hop."=20 >=A0 >JL=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 17:30:00 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:30:00 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812241531.mBOBnE7d009043@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My comment was that, for example, you can have a native speaker who cannot hear differences in the vowel sounds of marry, merry and Mary, even though they do themselves pronounce them differently. (I once had a friend spend five minutes with me, at the end of which, I was convinced that I could hear a difference in one of these three. I don't know if I still believe it or not as the effect of being able to distinguish one was temporary.) So it's possible that I have two or three pronunciations for Claus/ clause/claws even though they sound identical to my ears. And seriousness aside, doing this is the only way we're going to get English to a pentavocalic system such that we can get our letters to match up to our speech. BB On Dec 24, 2008, at 7:30 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, literally this would only be true of, say, a high-pitched fart > that only a dog could hear. > > Maybe what BB meant to say is that speakers vary unknowingly between > sounds (such as [a] and "open o") without realizing it. In the > language of linguistics, they are allophones in free variation (a > concept that Tom Zurinskas apparently does not understand despite > years of exposure on ads-l, leading him to insult gratuitouslyt > people who have a different phonemic system from his own). > ------Original Message------ > From: Benjamin Barrett > Sender: ADS-L > To: ADS-L > ReplyTo: ADS-L > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] opportYOUnity > Sent: Dec 23, 2008 11:05 PM > > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but > all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >> "clause". >> >> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >> rhyme with?) >> >> Joel >> >> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>> same: >>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>> figure out how to read. BB >>> >>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>> speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>> for [k] >>>> by some writers. >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>> is there >>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m- >>>>> w.com >>>>> is >>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>> But in >>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>> phonetics show >>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 19:01:51 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:01:51 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812241426.mBOBnElq009046@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something > like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill If "ull" is the vowel sound as in "bull" or "wool" it's ~ool in truespel phonetics where ~oo foespels the "short oo" sound. It occurs more often then most realize. For instance "l" endings like "triple" ~tripool, "trouble" ~trubool. It's foespeld by schwa usually. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:26:02 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/24/2008 07:43 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect >>pronunciation. > > Isn't it the Pennsylvania Dutch American dialect > pronunciation? :-) (I was joshing when I suggested it.) > > But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something > like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill", and differently from > "mal". (Of course, in the 18th century it was "malefeasance", > although I don't know how that was pronounced.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 04:19:29 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:19:29 -0800 Subject: distinguishing Message-ID: from Henry Fountain's Observatory feature in the NYT Science Times 12/23, "African Fish Need A Little Electricity For Love to Bloom": Females of the species Campylomormyrus compressirostris [i am not making this up], a fish that produces a weak electrical discharge from an organ near its tail, can distinguish males of their own species by their electrical signature, scientists at the University of Potsdam in Germany report in Biology Letters. ..... sometimes "distinguish X" works just fine without an expression of the comparison class ("from Y"), but sometimes the reader or hearer has to work things out. in this case, the first reading i got was 'distinguish [some] males of their own species from other males of their own species', which would certainly be a useful ability for female fish to have. but the piece goes on: The females' ability may effectively serve as a reproductive barrier that is important in speciation, the divergence of new species from existing ones. ..... ah! the intended reading was 'distinguish [all] males of their own species from [all] males of other species'. writing is hard; let's go shopping! arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 04:41:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:41:53 -0500 Subject: A "twofer" Message-ID: I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 05:52:49 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:52:49 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMEW029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have one more kid-speak expression to add to the list. Here's the full context that builds up to it. The context is more for entertainment, the specific word (highlighted) is for analysis. While trying (and then consuming) a particular kind of exotic, earthy-crunchy (but no granola!) yogurt, the same kid (4y4m) said, "It tastes like fashion lady perfume. It's, like, *sweet-and-soury* and stuff..." I don't recall exactly what followed, but, I am sure, the observation was just as deep. I don't recall the actual flavor, but another flavor from the same batch included lavender, so it's easy to see how this could lead to the above observation. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 06:00:14 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:00:14 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/25/2008 12:03:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear Since it's the Day itself, I have to say: Merry Christmas to one and all! Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've observed: - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha - a Long Island native adds an R to the end of her own name, Freyda, so at times she calls herself Freyder. Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways they say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. Are you saying they really can't hear the differences? Rosemarie What flies and goes "OH-OH-OH!"? Santa flying backwards! **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 07:08:28 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:08:28 -0800 Subject: bare pasts Message-ID: on PST/PSP "text", "pit", etc., with a bow to ADS-L: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/whats-the-past-tense-of-the-verb-text/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 25 08:59:05 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:59:05 -0800 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: <200812250559.mBOBnEJQ009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know about those examples. It seems they might be using variations within their own language/dialect, so they really are using the same pronunciations. In any case, I'm pretty sure that it's an established fact that some speakers make differentiations they cannot hear themselves. BB On Dec 24, 2008, at 10:00 PM, Your Name wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2008 12:03:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear > > > > Since it's the Day itself, I have to say: Merry Christmas to one > and all! > > Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've > observed: > - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha > - a Long Island native adds an R to the end of her own name, Freyda, > so at > times she calls herself Freyder. > > Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways > they > say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. > Are you > saying they really can't hear the differences? > > Rosemarie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 16:39:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:39:41 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: a very small point, about the following quote from a Christmas shopper interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition this morning (12/25/08): "With the market and everything being the way that it is ..." i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero relative: "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits {"being the way it is"} 845 hits so the zero variant has it over the "that" variant by a bit more than 3 to 1, though the numbers for the "that" variant aren't shabby. MWDEU under "contact clauses": "Since contact clauses did not exist in Latin, the 18th-century grammarians looked at them askance. Lindley Murray 1795 termed the construction “omitting the relative” and stated that “in all writings of a serious and dignified kind, it ought to be omitted.” Jespersen quotes Samuel Johnson as calling the omission of the relative pronoun “a colloquial barbarism” (and also notes that examples can be found in Johnson’s letters)." in contrast, more modern handbooks sometimes suggest that relativizer "that" should be omitted where possible (Omit Needless Words). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 17:33:15 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:33:15 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812251639.mBPCT69R022503@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than without "that" is to be expected. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a very small point, about the following quote from a Christmas shopper > interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition this morning (12/25/08): > > "With the market and everything being the way that it is ..." > > i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero > relative: > > "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." > > a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: > > {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits > {"being the way it is"} 845 hits > > so the zero variant has it over the "that" variant by a bit more than > 3 to 1, though the numbers for the "that" variant aren't shabby. > > MWDEU under "contact clauses": "Since contact clauses did not exist in > Latin, the 18th-century grammarians looked at them askance. Lindley > Murray 1795 termed the construction "omitting the relative" and stated > that "in all writings of a serious and dignified kind, it ought to be > omitted." Jespersen quotes Samuel Johnson as calling the omission of > the relative pronoun "a colloquial barbarism" (and also notes that > examples can be found in Johnson's letters)." > > in contrast, more modern handbooks sometimes suggest that relativizer > "that" should be omitted where possible (Omit Needless Words). > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 20:11:28 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:11:28 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 2008 to 22 Dec 2008 (#2008-357) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/23/2008 12:03:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: but then there are a few sites (from evident non-native speakers) with things like the following: KITP - Egypt [EG] Want to buy Fish, Butter Dear Sir We are a company deals in field of food stuff and we would like to import the following items: 1- Haring fish. Origin: Netherlands - Norway Specifications: 3-5 fishes / 1 kgm. 2- Mackerel fish. 3- Macaroni fish. 4- Natural butter. Origin: Australia - New Zealand - Netherlands Specifications: Not salted Please send your price and specifications. Best regards, Adel El Mohandes ..... clearly "macaroni fish" here is not mackerel, since "mackerel fish" is also on this (short) list. so it's puzzling. arnold ~ Just a guess, but could he be referring to a fish with scales that look like elbow macaroni? I've seen pictures of these; don't what they're called. Obviously there are plenty of shapes of macaroni; and being half Italian, I usually spell out what shape I mean. But among my not-even-a-little-bit-Italian friends, it's common to use the term "macaroni" to refer soley to elbow macaroni. Perhaps Aden El Mohandes, above, thinks the same way. Rosemarie What flies and goes "OH-OH-OH!"? Santa flying backwards! **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 23:02:23 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:02:23 -0500 Subject: A "twofer" In-Reply-To: <200812250441.mBOBnEE0009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The cartoon character's before my time. Your post sent me to M-W Online. I've always known of the theater definition (#2), but the others were new to me. Your example looks like an extension of #3. two·fer Etymology: alteration of two for (one) Date:1885 1: a cheap item of merchandise ; especially : a cigar selling at two for a nickel 2: a free coupon entitling the bearer to purchase two tickets to a specified theatrical production for the price of one 3: two articles available for the price of one or about the price of one 4: something that satisfies two criteria or needs simultaneously Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was > comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does > anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, > "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? > > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Fri Dec 26 02:14:13 2008 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:14:13 -0600 Subject: New military strategy: if you can't teach GI's to conjugate in Arabic, try teaching linguists to kill Message-ID: Just in time for the holidays, there's a new post on the Web of Language: New military strategy: if you can't teach GI's to conjugate in Arabic, try teaching linguists to kill Giving up on plans to beef up the nation's defenses by teaching thousands of military personnel critical languages, the army has decided that it's easier to train linguists to shoot and do one-handed push ups than it is to get soldiers to learn Arabic or Pashto. True to its slogan, "Be all that you can be," the Army turns America's muffin-topped teens into lean, mean fighting machines. But while it has no problem training raw recruits to break down and reassemble their rifles blindfolded in a sandstorm, its well-publicized efforts to teach our troops the languages of the enemy have failed. Most soldiers can't even pronounce Iran and Iraq correctly (as if an M-16 is not enough of a give-away, calling these countries eye-ran and eye-rack instantly labels you as "not from around here" in the tinder box that is the Middle East). . . . there just aren’t enough non-Arab-Americans who speak Arabic and have the clearance to work in counter-terrorism and military operations. And so, instead of drilling hopelessly anglophone troops in the Arabic equivalent of, I don't know but I've been told, amo-amas-amat . . . a tactic which hasn't produced enough fluent speakers of the language, the service is now looking for a few good native speakers of Arabic to join up for translator duty. By combing through the millions of résumés on monster.com and emailing anyone listing Arabic as a language skill, Uncle Sam found enough volunteers to form the 51st TICO (Translator and Interpreter Company) and put them through translator training at a fake Iraqi village in the Mojave Desert. . . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Fri Dec 26 03:17:57 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 03:17:57 +0000 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: <200812250559.mBOBnEJQ009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 25 Dec 2008, at 06:00, Rosemarie wrote: > > Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've > observed: > - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha > [snip] > > Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways > they > say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. > Are you > saying they really can't hear the differences? I do that, except that my name isn't Sascha. I grew up in a region of Germany where the regional variant of Hochdeutsch as well as local dialects have initial s always unvoiced. The way it came across was that many Northern German people had an affected way of occasionally adding an unnecessary buzzing sound to the beginning of words starting in s, and while I was definitely not supposed to pick up what was referred to as dialect, I *was* supposed to adopt the high-prestige regional features. It took growing up into my 20s, when I was studying away from home, that I realized things were more complicated. I remember the conversation very well: I had said 'sechs' (six), and one of my friends thought I was talking about Sex (sex). It was a total surprise to learn he pronounced the former with [z] and the latter with [s] -- and that this wasn't a personal idiosyncrasy. At that point I had to concentrate very hard to even hear the difference. These days, I vary. After living abroad for over 14 years now, my regional features have bleached, and I do do initial [z], sometimes. I don't consciously choose whether to use [z] or [s], but am pretty sure that when I'm speaking German in a meeting at work, I'd be more likely to say the number 6 as [zEks], whereas around my family, or a colleague who grew up in the same town as myself, it would probably come out as [sEks]. I'd similarly be able to employ the two pronunciations for the name Sascha, leaning towards ['sa.S@]. An anecdotal data point for your consideration. Cheers, Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 26 04:46:12 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:46:12 -0800 Subject: All talking photoplay 1928 Message-ID: The archives take "photoplay" (movie) back to 1909. Today I saw a citation for "all talking photoplay" which perhaps is of interest. Book title: Behind the Curtain by Earl Derr Biggers On the title page: With Illustrations from the William Fox "all talking" photoplay (all caps) Grosset & dunlap New York 1928 On the copyright page: By the Curtis Publishing Company FWIW. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Fri Dec 26 06:15:54 2008 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roland Sussex) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:15:54 +1000 Subject: "Twofer" In-Reply-To: <200812260500.mBPBuaft022508@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The usage ³numeral + -fer² is common in Australian cricket commentary. If a bowler gets two batsmen out in an innings he is said to have a ³twofer² - two wickets for x runs (x unspecified). It¹s more common to refer to larger numbers of wickets, especially 5 and above (there are 10 in an innings): fivefer, sixfer, and so on. Roly Sussex The University of Queensland Australia Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:02:23 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: A "twofer" The cartoon character's before my time. Your post sent me to M-W Online. I've always known of the theater definition (#2), but the others were new to me. Your example looks like an extension of #3. two·fer Etymology: alteration of two for (one) Date:1885 1: a cheap item of merchandise ; especially : a cigar selling at two for a nickel 2: a free coupon entitling the bearer to purchase two tickets to a specified theatrical production for the price of one 3: two articles available for the price of one or about the price of one 4: something that satisfies two criteria or needs simultaneously Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was > comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does > anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, > "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? > > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:01:57 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:01:57 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812251733.mBPCT69n022503@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that > "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that > I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the > "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my > underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE > speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to > the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than > without "that" is to be expected. i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i posted about. the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ (i'll quote from several of these below). to start with, "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, restrictive, non pied-piped, non- extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur without optional that." and then: "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or exceptionally low rates of relativizers." there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual practices). everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other people) do. it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even know what i do myself. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:13:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:13:44 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:17 AM +0000 12/26/08, Chris Waigl wrote: >On 25 Dec 2008, at 06:00, Rosemarie wrote: >> >>Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've >>observed: >>- a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha >>[snip] >> >>Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways >>they >>say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. >>Are you >>saying they really can't hear the differences? > >I do that, except that my name isn't Sascha. > >I grew up in a region of Germany where the regional variant of >Hochdeutsch as well as local dialects have initial s always unvoiced. >The way it came across was that many Northern German people had an >affected way of occasionally adding an unnecessary buzzing sound to >the beginning of words starting in s, and while I was definitely not >supposed to pick up what was referred to as dialect, I *was* supposed >to adopt the high-prestige regional features. > >It took growing up into my 20s, when I was studying away from home, >that I realized things were more complicated. I remember the >conversation very well: I had said 'sechs' (six), and one of my >friends thought I was talking about Sex (sex). It was a total surprise >to learn he pronounced the former with [z] and the latter with [s] -- >and that this wasn't a personal idiosyncrasy. At that point I had to >concentrate very hard to even hear the difference. > >These days, I vary. After living abroad for over 14 years now, my >regional features have bleached, and I do do initial [z], sometimes. I >don't consciously choose whether to use [z] or [s], but am pretty sure >that when I'm speaking German in a meeting at work, I'd be more likely >to say the number 6 as [zEks], whereas around my family, or a >colleague who grew up in the same town as myself, it would probably >come out as [sEks]. I'd similarly be able to employ the two >pronunciations for the name Sascha, leaning towards ['sa.S@]. > >An anecdotal data point for your consideration. > And for us non-native speakers, this variability is essential to the classic riddle: Q: What did Freud say comes between fear and sex? [SPOILER SPACE] A: Fünf LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 22:45:56 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:45:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Rock Opera" Message-ID: OED's first use for _rock opera_ is dated 1969. According to Wikipedia: The July 4, 1966 edition of RPM Magazine (published in Toronto) notes that "Bruce Cockburn and Mr [William] Hawkins are working on a Rock Opera, operating on the premise that to write you need only 'something to say'." The Cockburn / Hawkins rock opera seems not to have been completed, though some songs from the project may be among the Cockburn and Hawkins compositions that appeared on 3's a Crowd's 1968 album, Christopher's Movie Matinee. Alternatively, the term rock opera may have originated at an informal gathering of Pete Townshend, guitarist for The Who, and some friends at some point that same year (i.e., 1966). Townshend is said to have played a comedy tape to his friends called Gratis Amatis, and one of his friends is said to have made the comment that the odd song was a "rock opera". (Kit Lambert, the Who's producer, is then said to have exclaimed "Now there's an idea!") Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 23:15:04 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Rhythm and Blues" Message-ID: rhythm and blues (OED 1949) 1933 _Wisconsin State Journal_ 12 May 10 (Newspaperarchive) The fastest stepping, hottest of modern music, and the most colorful rhythm and blues singing are promised by the Ashley Theater corp., when the Orpheum theater opens under its management Sunday. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 01:36:37 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:36:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" Message-ID: split infinitive (OED 1897) 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sat Dec 27 04:21:56 2008 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812261602.mBQBl8GC027753@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold & everyone, About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at all the phonological environmental constraints). And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at all about the distribution of these features without really "doing the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Paul Johnston On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >> without "that" is to be expected. > > i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) > *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i > posted about. > > the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. > to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by > florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: > > http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ > > (i'll quote from several of these below). > > to start with, > > "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, > restrictive, non pied-piped, non- > extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur > without optional that." > > and then: > > "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no > relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, > properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and > number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." > > "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence > whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, > noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or > exceptionally low rates of relativizers." > > there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting > about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. > someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind > of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, > someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of > speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual > practices). > > everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases > and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can > be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless > unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's > actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it > doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other > people) do. > > it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have > different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors > being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. > i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even > know what i do myself. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Dec 27 13:47:43 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 05:47:43 -0800 Subject: eggcorn Message-ID: Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." This may have been a double mistake, because immediately afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 14:15:01 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:15:01 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <55ADA082-655E-4EDA-B611-DC29C6CB609F@wmich.edu> Message-ID: I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add that [sic] the human drive for invariance in speech is as fundamental as the drive for variation. They both stem from our social instinct to fit in, either to be right (variation) or not to be wrong (invariance). Schools and parents are powerful, but peer pressure is even stronger. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Paul Johnston Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] zero vs. "that" relatives Arnold & everyone, About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at all the phonological environmental constraints). And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at all about the distribution of these features without really "doing the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Paul Johnston On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >> without "that" is to be expected. > > i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) > *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i > posted about. > > the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. > to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by > florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: > > http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ > > (i'll quote from several of these below). > > to start with, > > "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, > restrictive, non pied-piped, non- > extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur > without optional that." > > and then: > > "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no > relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, > properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and > number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." > > "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence > whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, > noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or > exceptionally low rates of relativizers." > > there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting > about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. > someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind > of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, > someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of > speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual > practices). > > everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases > and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can > be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless > unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's > actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it > doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other > people) do. > > it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have > different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors > being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. > i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even > know what i do myself. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 27 14:16:48 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:16:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CA98@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >split infinitive (OED 1897) > >1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >jewel in the carcanet. And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a useful postdating. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 27 14:50:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:50:41 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271417.mBRBkZNh005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2008, at 6:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >> Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >> jewel in the carcanet. > > And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a > useful postdating. (1876 is the latest cite in the OED entry.) the OED definition: An ornamental collar or necklace, usually of gold or set with jewels. arch. (App. obs. from c 1670 to 19th c.) [also figurative and transferred, as in this case] (nice dangling participle from J.B., by the way.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 15:54:33 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:54:33 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270417.mBQBsLYX028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Paul, Very interesting. I wonder if you have data about the frequency of the glottalization of the ending "t" such as in words, "What about that," where each word can the "t" spoken with the back of the tongue thrust backward instead of the tip touching the teeth with a plosive and then aspiration. I also wonder about the ~d for ~t substitution, such that "better butter" is pronounced "bedder budder" as can be heard at m-w.com. I believe these are normal pronunciations although not even recognized as an alternative in the m-w.com phonetic notation. I recognize them as alternative pronunciations in my vOA dictionary. I believe American English is very standardized as presented in TV media newscasts. What are the biggest differences lately? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 -0500 > From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold & everyone, > > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I > can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement > by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did > the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To > an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of > them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular > variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper > class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my > informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born > and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used > it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group > used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, > in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE > vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in > general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means > socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own > vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match > reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known > that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at > all the phonological environmental constraints). > > And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be > even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so > knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. > When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into > the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at > all about the distribution of these features without really "doing > the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. > > > Paul Johnston > On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------- >>> >>> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >>> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >>> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >>> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >>> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >>> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >>> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >>> without "that" is to be expected. >> >> i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) >> *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i >> posted about. >> >> the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. >> to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by >> florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: >> >> http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ >> >> (i'll quote from several of these below). >> >> to start with, >> >> "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, >> restrictive, non pied-piped, non- >> extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur >> without optional that." >> >> and then: >> >> "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no >> relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, >> properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and >> number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." >> >> "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence >> whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, >> noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or >> exceptionally low rates of relativizers." >> >> there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting >> about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. >> someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind >> of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, >> someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of >> speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual >> practices). >> >> everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases >> and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can >> be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless >> unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's >> actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it >> doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other >> people) do. >> >> it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have >> different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors >> being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. >> i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even >> know what i do myself. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Sat Dec 27 16:01:33 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:01:33 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270500.mBQBsLZB028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Paul Johnston > ...Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Actually, as a sociolinguist who came up through the Labovian model, i'd argue that we're not there yet--but then again, i'd argue that we're not there yet for phonological variation, either. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Sat Dec 27 16:07:38 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:07:38 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270500.mBQBsLZB028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Paul Johnston > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too... Good points all (including the bits i snipped), but there's a problem here that i've brought up before on this forum--how rare does something have to be in order for it to be fairly ignored as "not part of the system" or somesuch? It's easy enough to imagine that someone's linguistic system could be set up so that they have particular variants show up 1 time in 10, or 1 time in 100, or 1 time in 10,000, or whatever--so simple rarity (which would, in many cases, appear to be sporadicity) isn't enough. I don't know the answer to this. I know that others have worked on it, but i remain rather unconvinced by what i've read on *all* sides of the question. Really, it all boils down to us having a pretty good idea of how to describe linguistic variation, but not how to explain it. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:11:53 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:11:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Darwinism" Message-ID: The OED's earliest citation for _Darwinism_ is dated 1864. Wikipedia, however, cites an 1860 usage by T. H. Huxley. I believe the citation is an authentic one. Huxley, T.H. (April 1860). "ART. VIII.- Darwin on the origin of Species" 541–70. Westminster Review. Retrieved on 2008-06-19. "What if the orbit of Darwinism should be a little too circular?" Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 27 16:27:33 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:27:33 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271417.mBRBkZNh005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 27 Dec 2008, at 14:16, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >> Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >> jewel in the carcanet. > > And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a > useful postdating. Having looked it up, too, it turned out to be a quote from Shakespeare's Sonnet LII, which has this to say about holidays: Therefore are feasts so solemn and so rare, Since, seldom coming, in the long year set, Like stones of worth they thinly placed are, Or captain jewels in the carcanet. If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds it useful.) Tolkien also employed _carcanet_ in The Fellowship of the Ring. As for "split infinitive", a cursory look at the some search tools seems to indicate that the term, as a favourite stand-in for sub- standard writing/education/character, became a fashionable trope some time in the second half of the 1890. Has anyone written about this, accessible online or not? Chris Waigl who admires 'to solemnly curse' very much ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:37:02 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:37:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Googol" and "Googolplex" Message-ID: The OED's first uses for "googol" and "googolplex" are dated 1940. A JSTOR search, however, retrieves two 1938 citations for both words, from Science News-Letter, Feb. 12, 1938, p. 108; and Mathematical Gazette, May 1938, p. 215. These 1938 articles make it clear that Edward Kasner used both words in an article entitled "New Names in Mathematics" in _Scripta Mathematica Forum Lectures_ (1937). Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:48:45 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:48:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jewish American Princess" Message-ID: The earliest use in OED and HDAS for _Jewish-American Princess_ is dated 1972. A search on Google Books yields probaly authentic occurrences in: Transatlantic Review Published by , 1969 Item notes: no.32-35 (1969-70) Atlantis: The Autobiography of a Search By Robert Ferro, Michael Grumley Published by Doubleday, 1970 Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 27 16:54:39 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:54:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271628.mBRC1qRF017928@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 27 Dec 2008, at 16:27, Chris Waigl wrote: > > If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in > an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him > as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not > with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds > it useful.) > I have to take this one back because it is just a quote, too, from a source cited in the OED: 1876 MACFARREN Harmony vi. (ed. 2) 191 This a carcanet of smiles, the other, a rosary of tears. It occurs in a few more obits. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:55:28 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:55:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably authentic occurrence: Transatlantic Review‎ - Page 69 1969-70 To my Jap — my Jewish American Princess. I have not, however, verified this in the original. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 17:13:18 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:13:18 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270912v54844b23obfad727dd6369c17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two phonologically similar loanwords? Mark Mandel On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > > Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: > > "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." > > This may have been a double mistake, because immediately afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. > > James A. Landau > test engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 27 17:47:30 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:47:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270913u1318d973x9a5035b568c311ad@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: It's clearly just a mistake, since the teriyaki would have come out to the patio to be cooked, not into the auditorium to be played. Joel At 12/27/2008 12:13 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two >phonologically similar loanwords? > >Mark Mandel > > >On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: > > > > Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: > > > > "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." > > > > This may have been a double mistake, because immediately > afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. > > > > James A. Landau > > test engineer > > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 18:11:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:11:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270913u1318d973x9a5035b568c311ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:13 PM -0500 12/27/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two >phonologically similar loanwords? > >Mark Mandel ...and, crucially, both mentally "filed" as <+ Japanese>. Reminds me of the time a few years ago when I was going through the cafeteria line in a Yale College dining hall and kept asking for broccoli, and wondered with increasing frustration why the server wasn't ladling me out the...ravioli. More like a slip of the synapse than of the tongue, I'd say. LH P.S. On the second "mistake", there are in fact many many (290K) google hits for "live band" + karaoke, and assuming this counts as karaoke (although we may be in the realm of peanut butter and oral sex), the nursing home wasn't in error on that one. 27,800 hits for "live band karaoke" (with quotes); but I admit none at all for "live band teriyaki", so I can't defend that one. > > >On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: >> >> Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: >> >> "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." >> >> This may have been a double mistake, because immediately >>afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. >> >> James A. Landau >> test engineer >> Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >> 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >> West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dth10 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 19:42:15 2008 From: dth10 at HOTMAIL.COM (david hughes) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:42:15 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271655.mBRBkZQD005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In Britain there's a small independent publishing house called Carcanet (http://www.carcanet.co.uk/about.shtml). David Hughes > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:54:39 +0000> From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET> Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive"> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Waigl > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive"> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > On 27 Dec 2008, at 16:27, Chris Waigl wrote:> >> > If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in> > an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him> > as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not> > with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds> > it useful.)> >> > I have to take this one back because it is just a quote, too, from a> source cited in the OED:> > 1876 MACFARREN Harmony vi. (ed. 2) 191 This a carcanet of smiles, the> other, a rosary of tears.> > It occurs in a few more obits.> > Chris Waigl> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Are you a PC?  Upload your PC story and show the world http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 27 21:02:51 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:02:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812270139.mBQBl8NG027753@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > split infinitive (OED 1897) > > 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The split infinitive ('to > solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:37:08 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:37:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" Message-ID: OED's first use of _yuppie_ is dated 1984. Barry Popik has pushed the word back to a 1981 occurrence in the Chicago Tribune. An earlier citation is asserted by Wikipedia: Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:48:01 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:48:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271942.mBRC1qU3017928@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The >> split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. > > Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. Just checked for myself. It's in a review of _Having and Holding_ by J.E. Panton, which the reviewer calls "A Novel in Journalese". The metaphor (with its Shakespearean echo noted by Chris) is, as you might expect, a bit of prescriptivist sarcasm: "_Having and Holding_ reads like the work of a promising beginner. Rich and rare are the gems of its grammar. 'Every' has a plural verb; one thing is 'different to' another; install is spelt with one 'l' and withal with two; 'art' becomes an adjective; the split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. 'As' invariably and with becoming modesty gives way to the euphonious 'like' -- 'like our post-girl has done'; and you hear of a gardener who is 'clerk and leader of the choir Sundays,' although no explanation offers light to your darkness on the subject of a choir Sunday, and the duties of the reader of a choir Sunday -- (which is perhaps a reminiscence of 'All the feet of the hours that sound as a single lyre') -- cannot be compassed by a merely human imagination." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:58:07 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:58:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Deadhead" Message-ID: The OED's first use for _Deadhead_ 'Grateful Dead fan' is dated 1972. According to Wikipedia: The term first appeared in print on the Grateful sleeve of Grateful Dead (also known as Skull & Roses), the band's second live album, released in 1971.[6] It read, as suggested by Hank Harrison: “ DEAD FREAKS UNITE: Who are you? Where are you? How are you? Send us your name and address and we'll keep you informed. Dead Heads, P.O. Box 1065, San Rafael, CA 94901. ” This phenomenon was first touched on in print by Village Voice music critic Robert Christgau at a Felt Forum show in 1971, noting "how many 'regulars' seemed to be in attendance, and how, from the way they compared notes, they'd obviously made a determined effort to see as many shows as possible."[6] Eileen Law, a long time friend of the band, was put in charge of the mailing list and maintained the Dead Heads newsletter. It is estimated that by the end of 1971, the band had received about 350 letters, but this number swelled greatly over the next few years to as many as 40,000.[6] In total, 25 mailings/newsletters reached Dead Heads between October 1971 and February 1980. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 23:48:21 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:48:21 -0500 Subject: widower Message-ID: Found in the caption of the photo. The second sentence is from the body of the article. Novel use or a typo? http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/12/27/2008-12-27_day_before_husbands_suicide_wife_of_fren.html Claudine de la Villehuchet, *widower* of the Billionaire hedge fund manager who committed suicide after losing money in the Madoff Ponzi scheme. ... His *widow* has been in seclusion at their home in New Rochelle, N.Y. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 00:30:48 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:30:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812272248.mBRBkZVX005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, that makes twice that I've encountered "carcanet". The first time was Tolkien's (in "Eärendil", in LotR): More bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet I find this use of "captain" ("a captain jewel in the carcanet") at least as interesting. And OED not only defines it but gives us the source as well: >> captain, a. Obs. Chief, principal, leading, head-. Quotations: ... c1600 SHAKES. Sonn. lii, Like stones of worth..Or captain jewels in the carcanet. ... << The def. as "head-" is a bonus. Mark Mandel On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> >>> split infinitive (OED 1897) >>> >>> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The >>> split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. >> >> Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 00:50:30 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:50:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" Message-ID: OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 11:39:33 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 06:39:33 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" Message-ID: Jeff Miller's web site on words of mathematics gives more information about the coinage of "googol" and "googolplex." He dates the Scripta Mathematica usage as 1938, not 1937: GOOGOL and GOOGOLPLEX are found in Edward Kasner, "New Names in Mathematics," Scripta Mathematica. 5: 5-14, January 1938 (unseen). Googol and googolplex appear on Jan. 31, 1938, in the "Science Today" column in the Dunkirk (N. Y.) Evening Observer. The article mentions the "amusing article in Scripta Mathematica." Googol and googolplex are found in March 1938 in The Mathematics Teacher: "The following examples are of mathematical terms coined by Prof. Kasner himself: turbine, polygenic functions, parhexagon, hyper-radical or ultra-radical, googol and googolplex. A googol is defined as 10100. A googolplex is 10googol, which is 1010100." [This quotation is part of a review of the January 1938 article above.] Googol and googolplex were coined by Milton Sirotta, nephew of American mathematician Edward Kasner (1878-1955), according to Mathematics and the Imagination (1940) by Kasner and James R. Newman: Words of wisdom are spoken by children at least as often as by scientists. The name "googol" was invented by a child (Dr. Kasner's nine-year-old nephew) who was asked to think up a name for a very big number, namely, 1 with a hundred zeros after it. He was very certain that this number was not infinite, and therefore equally certain that it had to have a name. At the same time that he suggested "googol" he gave a name for a still larger number: "Googolplex." A googolplex is much larger than a googol, but is still finite, as the inventor of the name was quick to point out. This quotation was taken from the article "New Names for Old" found in The World of Mathematics (1956) by Newman. The article is identified as an excerpt from Mathematics and the Imagination. The Merriam Webster dictionaries identify the nine-year-old nephew as Milton Sirotta, "b. about 1929." A Wikipedia article gives the dates for Milton Sirotta as (c. 1911-1980), and says he coined the term around 1920. The German Wikipedia gives Milton's dates as (1929 to ? about 1980). The Social Security death index shows one person named Milton Sirotta. He was born on Mar. 8, 1911, and died in Feb. 1981, with his last residence in Mount Vernon, N. Y. Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable. Thus it is pronounced differently from the name of the Internet company Google, although the Internet company name is a misspelling of googol. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Dec 28 07:02:57 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:02:57 -0800 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing assuredly that he is divine, To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting patiently in a pew, Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till my spirit arouses me, Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like man leaving charges before a journey. I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, But wind the circuit which I've wound before." In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 28 12:50:25 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:50:25 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2008, at 02:02, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. I wouldn't discount the electrical sense, but it might come from a different angle than you're thinking. Consider this page at Google Books from "Walt Whitman" by David S. Reynolds. http://tinyurl.com/7tj7ke "Whitman's use of the vocabulary of animal magnetism and electricity shows the mesmerists' influence. [...] So well attuned to the electrical theory was Whitman that at times his poetic personal seems like a bundle of electrical impulses. 'I have instant conductors all over me whether I pass or stop,' he writes in 'Song of Myself.'" Reynolds goes on to quote the memorable line, "I sing the body electric." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djh514 at YORK.AC.UK Sun Dec 28 13:25:10 2008 From: djh514 at YORK.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:25:10 +0000 Subject: Variation in AmE (was: zero vs. "that" relatives) Message-ID: Tom Zurinskas asked what the latest findings on variation in American English were. A very good summary is to be found in the _Atlas of North American English_ (Labov, Ash and Boberg 2006). It's a lavishly-illustrated book with accompanying website; many University libraries will hopefully have access to it. Tom, as you're not attached to a University, this may not help you much, but I hope you're able to get access to it somehow. It allows you to compare pronunciations of all the items on a pretty long list of words (containing many examples of each of the vowel phonemes of AmE), pronounced by nearly 500 speakers from all over the US and Canada. As far as analysis is concerned, the book has lots of it, but there are also sections that give summaries of the main tendencies, before all the detail kicks in. Damien -- Damien Hall University of York Department of Language and Linguistic Science Heslington York YO10 5DD UK Tel. (office) 01904 432665 (mobile) 0771 853 5634 Fax 01904 432673 http://www.york.ac.uk/res/aiseb/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Dec 28 13:26:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:26:28 -0500 Subject: WOTY preview (Philly Inquirer) Message-ID: http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20081228__quot_Obamanation__quot___quot_bailout_quot__and__quot_change__quot_.html and syndicated elsewhere: http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/954429.html http://www.charlotteobserver.com/408/story/438846.html http://www.sunjournal.com/story/297209-3/National/Bailout_maverick_word_of_2008_contenders/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djh514 at YORK.AC.UK Sun Dec 28 13:42:56 2008 From: djh514 at YORK.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:42:56 +0000 Subject: Differences that people make but can't hear Message-ID: I don't have many books by me, which is why I didn't reply to this question immediately. But, since analyses by Labov and others, the phenomenon of people making consistent differences that they can't hear has been known as a near-merger (of the two phonemes between which this slight difference is made). The classic example is _merry_ and _Murray_ in Philadelphia; many natives of the City of Philadelphia pronounce both so that they sound like _Murray_ (which has led to the Philly stereotype 'Murray Christmas'). People who have this near-merger are often shown not to be able to tell the difference between the two words, even when they are recorded saying both words and their own pronunciations are played back to them. And yet a non-negligible number of these speakers make a very small but consistent phonetic difference between the two words, obviously too small for them to perceive consciously, but there nevertheless when you do an instrumental analysis. I deliberately specify that it's usually people from the City of Philadelphia who have this near-merger: even people from the rest of the Philadelphia urban area (the towns of the surrounding counties of PA and NJ) have been shown not to have it (up to now). This is different from other features of the Philadelphia accent (its short-a system, and so on), which _do_ also appear in the surrounding urban area. A good description of this particular near-merger, the very inventive test cooked up to diagnose it (the Coach Test), and a discussion of how the phenomenon could be accounted for), can be found in: Labov, William. 1994. _Principles of Linguistic Change, Volume 1: Internal Factors_. Oxford, UK and Malden, MA, USA: Blackwell. Happy New Year! Damien Hall -- Damien Hall University of York Department of Language and Linguistic Science Heslington York YO10 5DD UK Tel. (office) 01904 432665 (mobile) 0771 853 5634 Fax 01904 432673 http://www.york.ac.uk/res/aiseb/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 28 14:47:37 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:47:37 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Geoffrey Nunberg : > A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" > asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders > of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > > I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, > My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, > Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, > Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, > Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... > Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, > To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, > Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, > Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > > One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > > I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of > circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the > Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If > it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. > writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be > chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman > was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a > regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has > the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 > narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > > "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > > In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could > also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, > beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > > Geoff Nunberg Perhaps compare his use of these words elsewhere, e.g. (via GooglBooks): Crossing the Alleghanies (1848) to follow the course of an interminable brook, winding with its windings, and twisting with its twists... and twisting with its twists, in a, to me, singular fashion. But even with so many circuits, the road had to be cut through very many bad places; Democratic Vistas At best, we can only offer suggestions, comparisons, circuits. It must still be reiterated, as, for the purpose of these memoranda, the deep lesson of... Song of Myself My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making specks of ... (and others) Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 14:35:36 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:35:36 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Emerging from the 18th century, I wonder whether it alludes to the idea (emerging during the Enlightenment, I think) that God set the universe in motion according to certain rules (that notion would explain discovery of the laws of science), and then let it run like clockwork. (He then did not intervene directly in the minor matters of the world -- no more "divine providence" for every small distress or success -- but only in significant cases.) The "circuits" might refer to the motions of the planets and stars, and the "circuit of circuits" to the universe as a whole. I leave the "winders" to the imagination. But that's what poetry's all about, isn't it? Different strokes for different folks. Joel At 12/28/2008 02:02 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" >asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders >of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > >I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, >My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, >Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, >Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, >Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... >Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > >One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > >I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of >circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the >Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If >it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. >writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be >chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman >was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a >regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has >the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 >narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > >"So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > >In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could >also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, >beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > >Geoff Nunberg > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:19:46 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:19:46 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281300.mBSBksOl006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Typo correction: make that "poetic persona". Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/7tj7ke > > "Whitman's use of the vocabulary of animal magnetism and electricity > shows the mesmerists' influence. [...] So well attuned to the > electrical theory was Whitman that at times his poetic personal seems <==== > like a bundle of electrical impulses. 'I have instant conductors all > over me whether I pass or stop,' he writes in 'Song of Myself.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:38:50 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:38:50 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay Message-ID: Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: "As it were -- that's their motto." And I went tick... tick... BOOM! as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: 1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ 2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 16:49:08 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:49:08 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: From someone on the eighteenth-century email list. Note that he thinks of itinerant preachers. >From: James Rovira > >One possibility, if you focus on these lines: > ><Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits.>> > >He initially seems to be describing a variety of religious >practices/groups in America, which makes sense of earlier lines in >which the poet's faith encloses all other faiths, ancient and >modern. The subsequent lines quoted below describe modern faiths >while previous lines (referring to oracles) describe ancient ones: > >"mass kneeling" -- could refer to a "mass of people" or to Catholic services. >"or the puritan's prayer rising" >"or sitting patiently in a pew" >"ranting and frothing...." could refer to Quakers and Shakers or >similar groups. > >"or" in the previous lines probably refers simultaneously to >different postures of worship within a modern prayer service -- >kneeling, praying, sitting, ranting, waiting dead-like (in today's >Pentecostal circles this is called being "slain in the spirit," as >you may recall seeing people collapse on stage during a televised >evangelist's service) -- and to different religious groups >themselves: Catholics, Puritans, and earlier forms of >Charismatic/Pentecostal groups. > >The next line's "looking forth on pavement and land" is the action >of "his spirit" after it has aroused him. But pavement implies >travel, so the word "circuit" in the next line could refer to the >itinerary of traveling preachers -- his spirit is looking forth on >pavement and land for the experience these preachers or similar >figures bring. Since the word "winders" is plural it probably >doesn't refer to a divine clock winder of sorts, which as presented >by mechanical philosophers would be singular -- the "winders" are >probably the priests mentioned in the first of your quoted >lines. The priests "wind the circuit" (motivate the activity?) of >"circuits" (traveling preachers' itineraries). > >A possibility, anyway. > >Jim R ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 16:53:13 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:53:13 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812280838i4ae17cc3xc21e9f837878dff5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > >And I went > tick... tick... BOOM! >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > >Mark Mandel > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 16:54:32 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:54:32 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <20081228094737.49ttmzgxs04swco4@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Song of Myself >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making specks >of ... This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the universe. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 28 17:23:12 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:23:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CAA3@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 07:50:30PM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: > > The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" > This is not correct. The referenced article only used the compound "disco sound"; OED already has an 1965 quot. for "disco beat", if we're accepting compounds. I've edited Wikipedia to reflect this. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 28 17:25:13 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:25:13 -0800 Subject: "wide asleep" Message-ID: Elizabeth Daingerfield Zwicky reports that her daughter Opal (age 4) says that when she is deeply asleep she is "wide asleep". makes sense, though it's not idiomatic. turns out that there's a big pile of google hits for "wide asleep" (including for a 2002 movie of that name), in a wide variety of senses. my favorite is its use for a baby sleeping with its eyes wide open. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 18:09:00 2008 From: aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281700.mBSDnaf5006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple of instances of "circuit of circuits" from a few decades after Whitman wrote "Song of Myself": "O my soul, I have given thee new names and gay-coloured playthings, I have called thee 'Fate' and 'the Circuit of circuits' and 'the navel-string of time' and 'the Azure bell.'" from Thus Spake Zarathustra, Friedrich Neitzche 1880s "…[Nature], however, never remains entirely or eternally determined and fixed into any permanent and unalterably persistent reality as such, but is forever in a continual course of change and flow, ever returning out of its special and particular realizations, in a circuit of circuits, into the absolute unity, fullness, and allness of the universality…" from Realistic Idealism in Philosophy Itself, Nathaniel Holmes 1888 The quotations above suggest a linking of the phrase with the spiritual or metaphysical, but as someone else has said, "Song of Myself" is poetry, so I doubt there is one fixed meaning for the phrase. It's more both/and than either/or, especially with Whitman. Andrea On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >Song of Myself > >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his > >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making > specks > >of ... > > This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the > universe. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 19:05:57 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:05:57 -0500 Subject: "wide asleep" In-Reply-To: <739F0574-A666-4D94-A096-5E6E8BBA0340@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:25 AM -0800 12/28/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >Elizabeth Daingerfield Zwicky reports that her daughter Opal (age 4) >says that when she is deeply asleep she is "wide asleep". makes >sense, though it's not idiomatic. > >turns out that there's a big pile of google hits for "wide >asleep" (including for a 2002 movie of that name), in a wide variety >of senses. my favorite is its use for a baby sleeping with its eyes >wide open. > If Stanley ("Eyes Wide Shut") Kubrick hadn't died (--almost 10 years ago! Time does fly), he could have made a sequel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 28 19:37:54 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:37:54 -0500 Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 Message-ID: Ben Zimmer and I have been playing tag with this one for some years. I found 1938(Henry McLemore, the sports writer) and Ben found that McLemore had used it in 1937. Using Newspaperarchive, _Big Springs(TX) Daily Herald_ May 5 1936 4/5 A story about FDR's press secretary, Marvin McIntyre, who seems to have been an avid golfer(from searching around papers of the time). "Another McIntyre-ism is the use of the 'mulligan'---links-ology for a second shot employed after a previously dubbed shot." Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 19:51:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:51:01 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812281653.mBSDnawY006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing, Larry. When I first heard the pswaydo-Latin, _Nihil nisi bastardi carborundum est_, translated as, "Don't let the bastards grind you down!", back in the 'Fiddies, I couldn't make any sense out of it at all and failed utterly to get the point, even after I had heard several explanations of it. Back in the day, I had placed third in the National Jesuit High-School Latin Contest and I knew damned well that that quotation was simply gibberish. I just couldn't wrap my head around the possibility that anyone could understand it as a joke, when it was clearly utter nonsense. I understood that a "bastard" was a kind of file and that Carborundum was the name of a company that made files and other grinding materials. But, beyond that, I was lost. It was years before I finally cottoned to the fact that it was gibberish was itself the point that was supposed to make the phrase a funny pun. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: macaronic wordplay > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >>Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after >>something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: >> >>"As it were -- that's their motto." >> >>And I went >> tick... tick... BOOM! >>as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: >> >>1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ >>2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" >> >>Mark Mandel >> > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 28 20:02:35 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:02:35 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" Message-ID: The New York Times has this apparent variant from 9/28/1980: "Mr. [Arthur] Miller himself speaks in the voice of his characters, despite having acquired certain characteristics of the country squire in the years since he moved to a renovated 1740 farmhouse on a hillside in Roxbury, Connecticut. . . . Delighted by rural life, Mr. Miller is what another writer who lives in the neighborhood refers to as a "yupper " - a refugee from New York who mingles easily with the local populace." The article does not further define "yupper," and Arthur Miller by this time was 64, making his status as a young urban professional somewhat questionable. However, I see that Urban Dictionary does include a definition for "yupper" as "A young city or suburban resident with a well-paid professional job and an affluent lifestyle," and that sounds a lot like a yuppie. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Sat 12/27/2008 5:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" OED's first use of _yuppie_ is dated 1984. Barry Popik has pushed the word back to a 1981 occurrence in the Chicago Tribune. An earlier citation is asserted by Wikipedia: Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:12:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:12:25 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281809.mBSBksVx006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geoff Nunberg writes: "... an itinerant clergyman..." FWIW, in the Methodist Church, of which I was a member before converting to The One True Faith, such clergymen, once (still?) a defining feature of that church, were (are?) known as "circuit riders." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Andrea Morrow > Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A couple of instances of "circuit of circuits" from a few decades after > Whitman wrote "Song of Myself": > > "O my soul, I have given thee new names and gay-coloured playthings, I have > called thee 'Fate' and 'the Circuit of circuits' and 'the navel-string of > time' and 'the Azure bell.'" > from Thus Spake Zarathustra, Friedrich Neitzche 1880s > > "=85[Nature], however, never remains entirely or eternally determined and > fixed into any permanent and unalterably persistent reality as such, but is > forever in a continual course of change and flow, ever returning out of its > special and particular realizations, in a circuit of circuits, into the > absolute unity, fullness, and allness of the universality=85" > from Realistic Idealism in Philosophy Itself, Nathaniel Holmes 1888 > > The quotations above suggest a linking of the phrase with the spiritual or > metaphysical, but as someone else has said, "Song of Myself" is poetry, so = > I > doubt there is one fixed meaning for the phrase. It's more both/and than > either/or, especially with Whitman. > > Andrea > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >Song of Myself >> >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his >> >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making >> specks >> >of ... >> >> This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the >> universe. >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 28 20:39:07 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:39:07 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay Message-ID: Wilson wrote: " . . . gibberish was itself the point that was supposed to make the phrase a funny pun." -- That and your buddy Mark (aka Sam'l C) must have been in mind when whomever named the software tool known as 'TWAIN' -- which stands for 'Tool Without An Interesting Name'. Delightful gibletish indeed! dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 28 20:33:50 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:33:50 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CAA1@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2008, at 17:37, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... > there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. > > I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the > Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Rottenberg has agreed to send me a copy of the article, which I will share with anyone who is interested. He also writes: "Incidentally, although my use of the term 'Yuppie' predated usage by others who've claimed to have originated it, the term didn't originate with me. I just used it in my 1980 article because I heard other people using it— precisely who, I don't recall." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:58:31 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:58:31 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812281653.mBSDnawW006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield saying VER IT AS which I always thought of with the /w/. That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to mention before). Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after > >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > > > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > > > >And I went > > tick... tick... BOOM! > >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > > > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ > >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > > > >Mark Mandel > > > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 28 21:04:05 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:04:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" In-Reply-To: <48AFF40C-B51F-43A3-968B-6D2C0B94E7C2@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 03:33:50PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Dec 27, 2008, at 17:37, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... >> there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. >> >> I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the >> Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. > > > Rottenberg has agreed to send me a copy of the article, which I will > share with anyone who is interested. Yes please! > He also writes: > > "Incidentally, although my use of the term 'Yuppie' predated usage by > others who've claimed to have originated it, the term didn't originate > with me. I just used it in my 1980 article because I heard other > people using it— precisely who, I don't recall." I've heard several people claim plausibly that they'd heard or used it in New York in the late 1970s. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM Sun Dec 28 21:27:19 2008 From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:27:19 -0800 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812281258i2b84290cneec088e000d476d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Or, when one sees a vertical post firmly anchored in the ground, and it is labeled... Toti ehor sesto one knows it's a hitching post for your equine? V/R Bruce Hunter Mark Mandel wrote: > I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) > my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in > Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield > saying > VER > IT > AS > which I always thought of with the /w/. > > That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson > as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to > mention before). > > Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 22:24:55 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:24:55 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812282127.mBSDna7k006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, because "totiehorsesto" isn't a single word in any language I know. Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Bruce Hunter wrote: > Or, when one sees a vertical post firmly anchored in the ground, and it > is labeled... > > Toti > ehor > sesto > > one knows it's a hitching post for your equine? > > V/R > Bruce Hunter > > Mark Mandel wrote: >> I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) >> my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in >> Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield >> saying >> VER >> IT >> AS >> which I always thought of with the /w/. >> >> That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson >> as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to >> mention before). >> >> Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 23:51:59 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:51:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812271658.mBRC1q20006321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish > American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably > authentic occurrence: > > > Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 > 1969-70 > > To my Jap — my Jewish American Princess. > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School ISBN > 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 00:10:58 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:10:58 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281216.mBSBksMh006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoffrey Nunberg > Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" > asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders > of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > > I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, > My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, > Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and > modern, > Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, > Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... > Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, > To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, > Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, > Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > > One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > > I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of > circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the > Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If > it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. > writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be > chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman > was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a > regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has > the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 > narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > > "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > > In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could > also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, > beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > > Geoff Nunberg ~~~~~~~~~~ This last seems plausible, given that itinerant clergymen were often called "circuit riders." AM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 00:20:20 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:20:20 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812281258i2b84290cneec088e000d476d@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: Another bit of vertical moronic word play from the Harvard campus: Scattered around are emergency phones to reach the Harvard police. The poles have vertical lettering, which often has been defaced to read C A L L F O R A S S S T A N C E Joel At 12/28/2008 03:58 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) >my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in >Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield >saying > VER > IT > AS >which I always thought of with the /w/. > >That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson >as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to >mention before). > >Mark Mandel > > >On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > > >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after > > >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > > > > > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > > > > > >And I went > > > tick... tick... BOOM! > > >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > > > > > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ > > >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > > > > > >Mark Mandel > > > > > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > > > LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Dec 29 02:50:59 2008 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:50:59 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in Marjorie Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the early forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha Pi, there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Murie" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >> authentic occurrence: >> >> >> Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 >> 1969-70 >> >> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >> >> >> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >> Yale Law School ISBN >> 0300107986 >> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 03:08:06 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:08:06 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <9BBEDA786181403EAFDBC05A9C6F43B4@WBJF> Message-ID: Using Google I found this: "According to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities at pp. 807-08 (19th Ed. 1977), Iota Alpha Pi was the oldest national college sorority founded by Jewish women. It was founded at Hunter(then Normal) College in New York in March, 1903." So, should we conclude that JAP was in use in 1903? Fred Shapiro ___________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerome Foster [funex79 at CHARTER.NET] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in Marjorie Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the early forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha Pi, there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Murie" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >> authentic occurrence: >> >> >> Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 >> 1969-70 >> >> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >> >> >> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >> Yale Law School ISBN >> 0300107986 >> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 03:34:41 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:34:41 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812290309.mBSDnan9006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Apparently originally pronounced "jay-ay-pee" (speculatively "J. A. P." = "just a plain [sorority]"), JAP was founded in 1903 (says the book), and the name apparently was "Hellenized" to iota alpha pi around 1913. The sorority apparently disbanded in 1971. Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_alpha_pi (the Sanua book is available via Google Books) The pronunciation "jap" for this "JAP" would have been much less natural in 1903 or 1913 than in later times. And I don't know that iota alpha pi was called either "jap" or "jay-ay-pee" in later times. Maybe somebody knows an alumna? The secret of the name might be revealed! -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 04:21:57 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:21:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812282352.mBSDnald006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notwithstanding the sorority subthread, others share the view of post-war origin. http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/03/13/the_return_of_the_jap/ The Return of the JAP, Alana Newhouse, Boston Globe, March 13, 2005
BEFORE PARIS HILTON made a career of flaunting her daddy's money, before Carrie Bradshaw transformed Manolo Blahnik from a shoe into a raison d'etre, even before Madonna unabashedly asserted herself as a Material Girl, there was the Jewish-American Princess. First identified in postwar America, the JAP was a girl lavished with the best in life-from the top of her professionally straightened mane of hair, to the nose job she got for her 16th birthday, to a wardrobe of designer clothes and the most expensive shoes money could buy. ... Now, just in time for the 50th anniversary of Herman Wouk's ''Marjorie Morningstar''-which, along with Philip Roth's ''Goodbye, Columbus,'' is widely viewed as one of the earliest references to the stereotype-the JAP is back. Only this time, the term isn't an insult but an ironic badge of honor.
Some of the more recent references that I found--including other parts of the Globe article (above) and the Wiki entry, along with its sources--take a view that surprises me somewhat on the use of "JAP", especially in the 1980s. Perhaps I lived a sheltered life in the 80s, but my impression was that, although clearly derogatory, "JAP" was an intra-cultural term more than an inter-cultural slur. This was so much so that when I used it, in passing, in the 1990s, a couple of my California friends wondered how the Japanese entered the conversation. Although there is no question that JAP was occasionally used alongside other ethnic slurs, and it was, by no means, a term of endearment, I wonder if this was really in such common use as to rise beyond a couple of narrowly defined subcultures. By late 1990s, I have heard some uses of "JAP" by non-Jewish teenage girls to essentially ascribe materialistic tendencies or consumerism to themselves. However, I would question any claim that this had anything to do with anti-Semitic stereotypes more than with the original coinage (in all appearances, self-deprecating). If a non-Jewish teenage girl proclaims, after a shopping spree, "I can be such a JAP sometimes!" this hardly means that the connotation being conveyed is in any way anti-Semitic. (Which would have meant that the statement was essentially, "I am such a Jew!") In fact, if anything, it is much closer to the contemporary meaning of the expression, as reflected by most sources in the last four-five years (including Wiki, Boston Globe, NYT, several novels, etc.). The reason I question this issue is that it may very well lead to a clash over the terminology between social linguists and sociologists. VS-) PS: Unfortunately, my reaction essentially amounts to anecdotal evidence (beyond the late-use evidence, which is what one can easily find on-line). If someone can come up with clear evidence contradicting my experience, I will gladly stand corrected. However, one should not discount the evolutionary turn that the use of "JAP" has clearly taken in recent years. This should not evolve into a battle of anecdotes (nor is it likely appropriate for this thread or this listserv). My reaction was precipitated by a shock I got from the Wiki article and some of its cited sources. Please do not interpret this as some kind of crusade. Alison Murie wrote: > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Dec 29 05:27:44 2008 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:27:44 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: I had no idea that IAP was a real sorority. I had cousins who were members at Brooklyn College and I do know that they had no problem in referring to themselves as JAPS so maybe I retroactively thought up the JAP/IAP idea...J Foster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shapiro, Fred" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Google I found this: > > "According to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities at pp. > 807-08 > (19th Ed. 1977), Iota Alpha Pi was the oldest national college sorority > founded by Jewish women. It was founded at Hunter(then Normal) College in > New York in March, 1903." > > So, should we conclude that JAP was in use in 1903? > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ___________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jerome Foster [funex79 at CHARTER.NET] > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:50 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > > -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in > Marjorie > Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the > early > forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha > Pi, > there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to > JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alison Murie" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Alison Murie >> Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first >> encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. >> AM >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >>> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >>> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >>> authentic occurrence: >>> >>> >>> Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 >>> 1969-70 >>> >>> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >>> >>> >>> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >>> >>> Fred Shapiro >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >>> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >>> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >>> Yale Law School ISBN >>> 0300107986 >>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 07:09:26 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:09:26 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812281142.mBSBdY8P001396@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fred Shapiro notes: "Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable." FWIW, there's a word in BE that I would spell _googob_, which likewise has secondary stress on the second syllable and which has the meaning, "a very large number of count nouns or a very large amount of a mass noun." A googob of a near-coincidence. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 6:39 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeff Miller's web site on words of mathematics gives more information about the coinage of "googol" and "googolplex." He dates the Scripta Mathematica usage as 1938, not 1937: > > > GOOGOL and GOOGOLPLEX are found in Edward Kasner, "New Names in Mathematics," Scripta Mathematica. 5: 5-14, January 1938 (unseen). > > Googol and googolplex appear on Jan. 31, 1938, in the "Science Today" column in the Dunkirk (N. Y.) Evening Observer. The article mentions the "amusing article in Scripta Mathematica." > > Googol and googolplex are found in March 1938 in The Mathematics Teacher: "The following examples are of mathematical terms coined by Prof. Kasner himself: turbine, polygenic functions, parhexagon, hyper-radical or ultra-radical, googol and googolplex. A googol is defined as 10100. A googolplex is 10googol, which is 1010100." [This quotation is part of a review of the January 1938 article above.] > > Googol and googolplex were coined by Milton Sirotta, nephew of American mathematician Edward Kasner (1878-1955), according to Mathematics and the Imagination (1940) by Kasner and James R. Newman: > > Words of wisdom are spoken by children at least as often as by scientists. The name "googol" was invented by a child (Dr. Kasner's nine-year-old nephew) who was asked to think up a name for a very big number, namely, 1 with a hundred zeros after it. He was very certain that this number was not infinite, and therefore equally certain that it had to have a name. At the same time that he suggested "googol" he gave a name for a still larger number: "Googolplex." A googolplex is much larger than a googol, but is still finite, as the inventor of the name was quick to point out. > > This quotation was taken from the article "New Names for Old" found in The World of Mathematics (1956) by Newman. The article is identified as an excerpt from Mathematics and the Imagination. > > The Merriam Webster dictionaries identify the nine-year-old nephew as Milton Sirotta, "b. about 1929." A Wikipedia article gives the dates for Milton Sirotta as (c. 1911-1980), and says he coined the term around 1920. The German Wikipedia gives Milton's dates as (1929 to ? about 1980). The Social Security death index shows one person named Milton Sirotta. He was born on Mar. 8, 1911, and died in Feb. 1981, with his last residence in Mount Vernon, N. Y. > > Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable. Thus it is pronounced differently from the name of the Internet company Google, although the Internet company name is a misspelling of googol. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 29 12:28:37 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:28:37 -0000 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? Message-ID: My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. On the back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 is an advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 13:00:51 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:00:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jaywalker" and "Jaywalking" Message-ID: jaywalker (OED 1917) 1911 _Washington Post_ 7 May M12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers. jaywalking (OED 1919) 1909 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 7 Apr. 12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) CHAUFFEURS assert with some bitterness that their "joy riding" would harm nobody if there were not so much jay walking. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:08:24 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: "tot mom" Message-ID: The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The phrase also appears in the writing on the screen. Is that phrase new? Is it patterned after "baby mama"? A Google search brings up 27,000 instances, but many of those exemplify the unasked-for phrase "tot's mom"--and a great portion of the remainder specifically refer to the Anthony case. --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:10:59 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:10:59 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812290500.mBSDnaFE006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know I'm coming into this a few days late, but ... >> i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero >> relative: >> "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." >> a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: >> {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits >> {"being the way it is"} 845 hits Data from the 100 million word TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time), comparing: [nn*] that he/she [p*] [v*] +that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' [nn*] he/she [v*] -that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' You can see a sustained decrease in the use of "that" (vs. zero) with relative clauses during the past 40 years (see http://www.americancorpus.org/charts/relatives.xls). It looks like the use of 'that' in relatives has decreased about 50% during this time. Best, Mark Davies ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:18:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:18:50 -0500 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <4958C275.5328.1FC8B4B4@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: At 12:28 PM +0000 12/29/08, Michael Quinion wrote: >My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. On the >back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 is an >advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". > Or maybe they were offering special rates to heavy drinkers... LH >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org >Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:57:24 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: "tot mom" In-Reply-To: <20081229100824.OSA97795@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:08 AM -0500 12/29/08, Charles Doyle wrote: >The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to >the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable >murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The >phrase also appears in the writing on the screen. > >Is that phrase new? Is it patterned after "baby mama"? A Google >search brings up 27,000 instances, but many of those exemplify the >unasked-for phrase "tot's mom"--and a great portion of the remainder >specifically refer to the Anthony case. > I think this is one of those "deictic compounds" Pamela Downing characterized in her 1977 Language article, where the meaning would be clear to (and only to) those following the story. (She cites "pumpkin bus", referring to the school bus that was designated as the one that would be stopping by the pumpkin patch on the way back from a field trip, or something like that.) My favorite example is "Ferrari Woman" in a headline in the S. F. Chronicle that turns out to refer to the disposition of the effects of a woman whose will stipulated that she be buried in her Ferrari. "Tot mom" would thus refer specifically to this particular woman for as long as the case remains in the consciousness of those following the Caylee case. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 16:23:20 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:23:20 -0800 Subject: "tot mom" In-Reply-To: <200812291557.mBTCLwYw010885@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "tot mom" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:08 AM -0500 12/29/08, Charles Doyle wrote: >> The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to >> the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable >> murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The >> phrase also appears in the writing on the screen... >> >> > I think this is one of those "deictic compounds" Pamela Downing > characterized in her 1977 Language article, where the meaning would > be clear to (and only to) those following the story... discussion of such compounds on Language Log (with several wonderful examples in the comments): GP, 8/4/08: Canoe wives and unnatural semantic relations: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:02:00 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:02:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" Message-ID: The OED's first use of _snuff_, attrib., as in _snuff film_ or _snuff movie_ is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: "The first recorded use of the term is in a 1971 book by Ed Sanders, The Family: The Story of Charles Manson's Dune Buggy Attack Battalion, in which it is alleged that The Manson Family might have been involved in the making of such a film." Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:22:13 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:22:13 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: Mark Davies replied: Begin forwarded message: > From: Mark Davies > Date: December 29, 2008 8:15:07 AM PST > To: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: RE: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > The decrease since the 1970s makes sense -- others have noted a > shift towards zero with both relatives and as verbal complementizers > (I know (that) Fred will get here today) in both contemporary > British and American English. The increase in "that" (or, decrease > in zero) during the preceding 30-40 years is somewhat more > problematic. Prescriptive pressure, which died out / lessened in the > 1960s/1970s? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:23:34 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:23:34 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: my response to Mark Davies: Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 29, 2008 9:18:03 AM PST > To: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > > On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Mark Davies wrote: > >> The decrease since the 1970s makes sense -- others have noted a >> shift towards zero with both relatives and as verbal >> complementizers ... in both contemporary British and American >> English. > > this just says that usage changed for complementizer "that" as well > as relativizer "that". it doesn't say why the usage should have > changed. of course, sometimes things just change. in this case, i > suspect that the growing preference for zero over "that" is part of > a larger pattern of change in favor of more coversational and > informal variants (seen also in the increase of "that" vs. "which" > in restrictive relatives, which has been occurring even without > pressure from copyeditors). > > it *is* significant that others have noted the shift towards zero. > otherwise, we might have suspected that the shift was specific to > the editorial practices of Time magazine. > >> The increase in "that" (or, decrease in zero) during the preceding >> 30-40 years is somewhat more problematic. Prescriptive pressure, >> which died out / lessened in the 1960s/1970s? > > > well, actually the decline apparently started in the 1980s. but the > effect of lessening prescriptive pressure could have been delayed > some. > > but the levels of "that" were low in the 1920s-1940s (lower than in > the 2000s, in fact). is there any reason to think that prescriptive > pressure increased in the 1950s-1970s? > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > practices at the magazine. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:20:35 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:20:35 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: meant for the list, but mistakenly sent only to Mark Davies. i'm forwarding it now, and will forward further exchanges with him on the subject. Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 29, 2008 8:11:02 AM PST > To: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > > On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Mark Davies wrote: > >> ... Data from the 100 million word TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time >> ), comparing: >> >> [nn*] that he/she [p*] [v*] +that e.g. '(the) car that he/she >> bought' >> [nn*] he/she [v*] -that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' >> >> You can see a sustained decrease in the use of "that" (vs. zero) >> with relative clauses during the past 40 years (see http://www.americancorpus.org/charts/relatives.xls) >> . It looks like the use of 'that' in relatives has decreased about >> 50% during this time. > > about 40% decrease between the 1970s and the 2000s. following an > approximately 60% *increase* between the 1930s and the 1970s. i > have no idea what to make of either of these developments. > > arnold > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:53:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:53:28 -0500 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812291823.mBTBpAJD009073@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > but the levels of "that" were low in the 1920s-1940s (lower than in > > the 2000s, in fact). is there any reason to think that prescriptive > > pressure increased in the 1950s-1970s? > > > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > practices at the magazine. My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the Time data to journalistic usage more generally, since the magazine has been so stylistically idiosyncratic over the years. Most notorious is their "inverted syntax," which was finally phased out in 2007: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/business/media/12time.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 19:10:49 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:10:49 -0800 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812291228.mBTCLwVe010885@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 4:28 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. > On the > back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 > is an > advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". now added to the "fullproof" entry in the ecdb. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 19:41:31 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:41:31 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: embedded question Message-ID: Spoken by a twenty-ish Latin woman: "In the boxing world, everybody _knows who's Belinda_, but nobody _knows who's Rashim_." Most people used to say, "... knows who Belinda is." However, I've heard the "... knows who's Belinda" type spoken by so many people of every race, creed, color, country of origin, and sexual orientation that the standard "... knows who Belinda is" is beginning to sound like pedantry occasionally used by academics. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:01:58 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:01:58 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: eggcorn or tip of the slung? Message-ID: Man-On-The-Street questioner to thirty-ish, black female speaker: He: "What's your opinion on this case?" She: "Well, I think that the landlord should be _reliable_ to pay the car-owner." -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:17:10 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:17:10 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a literary question, not a linguistic one. ------Original Message------ From: Joel S. Berson Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: [ADS-L] Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Sent: Dec 28, 2008 11:49 AM From someone on the eighteenth-century email list. Note that he thinks of itinerant preachers. >From: James Rovira > >One possibility, if you focus on these lines: > ><Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits.>> > >He initially seems to be describing a variety of religious >practices/groups in America, which makes sense of earlier lines in >which the poet's faith encloses all other faiths, ancient and >modern. The subsequent lines quoted below describe modern faiths >while previous lines (referring to oracles) describe ancient ones: > >"mass kneeling" -- could refer to a "mass of people" or to Catholic services. >"or the puritan's prayer rising" >"or sitting patiently in a pew" >"ranting and frothing...." could refer to Quakers and Shakers or >similar groups. > >"or" in the previous lines probably refers simultaneously to >different postures of worship within a modern prayer service -- >kneeling, praying, sitting, ranting, waiting dead-like (in today's >Pentecostal circles this is called being "slain in the spirit," as >you may recall seeing people collapse on stage during a televised >evangelist's service) -- and to different religious groups >themselves: Catholics, Puritans, and earlier forms of >Charismatic/Pentecostal groups. > >The next line's "looking forth on pavement and land" is the action >of "his spirit" after it has aroused him. But pavement implies >travel, so the word "circuit" in the next line could refer to the >itinerary of traveling preachers -- his spirit is looking forth on >pavement and land for the experience these preachers or similar >figures bring. Since the word "winders" is plural it probably >doesn't refer to a divine clock winder of sorts, which as presented >by mechanical philosophers would be singular -- the "winders" are >probably the priests mentioned in the first of your quoted >lines. The priests "wind the circuit" (motivate the activity?) of >"circuits" (traveling preachers' itineraries). > >A possibility, anyway. > >Jim R ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:26:07 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:26:07 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: Well, how about: > I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add, "the human drive for invariance in speech is ..." ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky To: ronbutters at aol.com Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives Sent: Dec 27, 2008 10:33 AM On Dec 27, 2008, at 6:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add that > [sic] the human drive for invariance in speech is ... no "sic" about it. the first, optional, "that" is a relativizer; the second "that" is a complementizer. like relativizer "that", complementizer "that" alternates with zero, but it has its own set of favoring and disfavoring factors. Fowler says it "should not be omitted after verbs agree, assert, assume, aver, calculate, conceive, hold, learn, maintain, reckon, state, suggest, or when the clause is appended to a noun like result, view, belief". Fowler's list of verbs requiring "that" can be extended considerably; manner-of-speaking verbs (like "whimper") generally do so, and so does the verb "add". there's a certain amount of variation here, but i find omission of "that" with "add" to be distinctly odd. many handbooks caution against omitting "that" when the verb could be construed (temporarily) as having the following NP as its object. Copperud: “the tendency to omit that is too strong…often omitted when it should have been used,” causing confusion, as in “He added the proposed freeway could follow the existing route”; should be “added that” to avoid the interpretation that he built the freeway (375) ..... note that Copperud's example has "added" as the verb. though, in fact, omitting "that" after "add" is odd even when no temporary misconstrual is possible, as in "She added I/we should leave at noon". arnold Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 20:33:26 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:33:26 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: embedded question In-Reply-To: <82745f630812291141q25ca9806of776bcb660936359@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:41 PM -0500 12/29/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Spoken by a twenty-ish Latin woman: > >"In the boxing world, everybody _knows who's Belinda_, but nobody >_knows who's Rashim_." > > >Most people used to say, "... knows who Belinda is." However, I've >heard the "... knows who's Belinda" type spoken by so many people of >every race, creed, color, country of origin, and sexual orientation >that the standard "... knows who Belinda is" is beginning to sound >like pedantry occasionally used by academics. > >-Wilson Well, as long as it's not "...knows who Belinda's". That's beyond even my pale. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 29 20:41:03 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:41:03 -0500 Subject: More 2008 WOTY nominations added Message-ID: I've posted David Barnhart's 2008 word-of-the-year nominations to the American Dialect Society web site: http://americandialect.org/woty2008/ Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 20:54:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:54:15 -0500 Subject: SOTA alert Message-ID: from the paper of record (NYT today, C11) Book review by Janet Maslin of Carol O'Connell's _Bone by Bone_: Dramatically "Bone by Bone" is defuse...It has no real central character. [Since I assume both words are in the relevant dictionary, there's no Cupertino effect to blame] LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 29 21:22:11 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:22:11 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" In-Reply-To: <200812291803.mBTCLwea026036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS was there, thirty-seven years ago: 1971 Ed Sanders _The Family_ (N.Y.: E. P. Dutton) 232: I, I, I knew, I know, I only know about one snuff movie. Sanders is quoting somebody else, BTW. JL --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > From: Shapiro, Fred > Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:02 PM > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The OED's first use of _snuff_, attrib., as in _snuff > film_ or _snuff movie_ is dated 1975. According to > Wikipedia: > > "The first recorded use of the term is in a 1971 book > by Ed Sanders, The Family: The Story of Charles Manson's > Dune Buggy Attack Battalion, in which it is alleged that The > Manson Family might have been involved in the making of such > a film." > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro > Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University > Press > Yale Law School > ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 21:43:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:43:53 -0500 Subject: An RCN ad: "For TV _how_ you like it ..." Message-ID: Whatever happened to "For TV _like_ you like it ..."? "Winstons taste good, _how_ a cigarette should"? Shakespeare's "_How_ You Like It"? And then there's that weird change in the BE of Saint Louis, my beloved - three syllables - hometown, as exemplified by the hiphop song title, "I'm Hurr, I'm Thurr, I'm Erriwhurr." Even "air" is pronounced "urr." Now, if only I could hurrr a black St. Louisan say, "To err is human ..." It reminds me of that SF story, "Shall We Have A Little Talk?" The language changes even as you learn it, though the real language changes somewhat more slowly than did the fictional - or should I be hip and use "fictive"? - language in the story. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 22:54:25 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:54:25 -0500 Subject: Defuse: not quite an eggcorn? Message-ID: In the print edition of the NYTimes today, in her book review Janet Maslin, or her word processor, wrote "Dramatically, 'Bone by Bone' is defuse; it would have benefited from a Mallory surrogate." (Mallory is described by Maslin as the author's "female Dirty Harry of detective fiction.") This appears as "diffuse" in the on-line version. My version of MS Word suggests "defuse" as the second correction to "difuse" -- but it suggests "diffuse" as the first. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 22:49:00 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:49:00 -0500 Subject: WOTY preview (Canwest) Message-ID: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1123897 Looking forward to the goat rodeo... --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 22:59:38 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:59:38 -0800 Subject: SOTA alert In-Reply-To: <200812292054.mBTBkSg6008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: SOTA alert > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > from the paper of record (NYT today, C11) > > Book review by Janet Maslin of Carol O'Connell's _Bone by Bone_: > > Dramatically "Bone by Bone" is defuse...It has no real central > character. > > > [Since I assume both words are in the relevant dictionary, there's no > Cupertino effect to blame] hmm. the opposite substitution is already in the ecdb: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/33/diffuse/ the Maslin example looks like an ordinary mis-spelling to me, but i could be wrong. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 00:34:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270417.mBQBw5I6028362@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All true, from your view of dialect. But WRT standard English, I'm an *observer* and not a speaker. My annoying experience throughout approximately six decades of life speaking and listening is that the presence of a BE speaker has no effect upon English as Northern white people choose to speak it, even when I have attempted to inject my intuitions into a conversation. At M.I.T., white students didn't give a second's thought to "correcting" my intuitions _on the spot_ when I had been asked for them by a fellow-student who was not to be a native speaker of English. It used to ass me to death. Damn! You'd think that at least they'd have waited till later, taken the foreign students aside and explained to them, outside of my presence, that the sE intuitions of the colored are untrustworthy by definition, since those people know the standard dialect only from books and not from immersion in some variety of it from birth. OTOH, the same white colleagues have no problem accepting my intuitions WRT sE when they are writing their own syntax papers. I wonder why it is that it's white people that are known for going postal and not black people. As long as the average white linguist displays this hopefully-unconscious attitude of superiority of speech habits, it will *never* be the case that there will never be an observer effect when a white, Northern linguist deals with speakers of other dialects, regardless of the race of the non-standard speaker. Writing and saying that the fact that a given dialect is standard only through mere historical accident is not the same as believing it. FWIW, it's my experience that Southern speakers, regardless of race, tend to give up their attempts to speak "properly," when they speak to black people. I.e., a friend of mine, a native of Cambridge, MA, whose father was also a native of Cambridge, but whose mother was from some North Carolina backwater, assured me that her mother didn't speak her native Southern dialect *except* when I was present, even though I, being the only black person on the set, was using my best attempt at Northern sE and studiously avoiding any use of blackisms and Southernisms. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold & everyone, > > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I > can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement > by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did > the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To > an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of > them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular > variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper > class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my > informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born > and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used > it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group > used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, > in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE > vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in > general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means > socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own > vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match > reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known > that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at > all the phonological environmental constraints). > > And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be > even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so > knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. > When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into > the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at > all about the distribution of these features without really "doing > the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. > > > Paul Johnston > On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------- >>> >>> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >>> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >>> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >>> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >>> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >>> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >>> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >>> without "that" is to be expected. >> >> i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) >> *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i >> posted about. >> >> the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. >> to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by >> florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: >> >> http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ >> >> (i'll quote from several of these below). >> >> to start with, >> >> "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, >> restrictive, non pied-piped, non- >> extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur >> without optional that." >> >> and then: >> >> "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no >> relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, >> properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and >> number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." >> >> "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence >> whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, >> noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or >> exceptionally low rates of relativizers." >> >> there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting >> about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. >> someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind >> of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, >> someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of >> speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual >> practices). >> >> everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases >> and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can >> be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless >> unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's >> actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it >> doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other >> people) do. >> >> it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have >> different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors >> being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. >> i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even >> know what i do myself. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 04:08:33 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:08:33 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812290709.mBSDnaKQ006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, but ISTM that that'd be (at least understood as) an emphatic version of "gob", which justifies the 2ndary stress. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Fred Shapiro notes: > > "Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress > on the second syllable." > > FWIW, there's a word in BE that I would spell _googob_, which likewise > has secondary stress on the second syllable and which has the meaning, > "a very large number of count nouns or a very large amount of a mass > noun." A googob of a near-coincidence. > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 04:28:49 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:28:49 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812281142.mBSBdY8L001396@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mathematical lore is likely based on Kasner's own account, which is not surprising--and, of course, Gardner and other popularizers of mathematics gave essentially an identical account to Kasner's own. However, there may be some recent documents that should shed more light on this. I don't have the exact date, but, within the last three years, Sirotta's and Kasner's family members tried to sue Google for either copyright or trademark violations (likely the former). The case was, of course, dismissed, but documentation should still exist. The easiest way to get the information on this would be from Google and its lawyers. Court records are public, but the trouble is finding the court where they were filed. VS-) PS: It appears that the action was initially filed in connection with Google IPO. I am still looking for details. Interestingly, some newspaper accounts contribute to confusion over the origin of "googol". Several turned Sirotta into Kasner's uncle, instead of nephew, reversing the coinage as well. Some backdated the origin to 1955--the year of Kasner's death. Much of this came out in 2004/5, as Google was getting ready for IPO. Also note that "googol" is not the only antecedent for Google--the company used to be obsessed with using pairs of eyes in its logos and symbols (and trademarks, of course). Last year, some European publications printed entire posters with 40+ different versions of Google eyes. Mileage may vary. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Dec 30 05:58:34 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:58:34 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: > From: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Date: December 29, 2008 12:17:10 PM PST > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > > Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a > literary question, not a linguistic one. I think I mentioned in my original query that as best I and my correspondent can tell the Whitman scholarship is uninformative on this one -- at least, lots of people quote the line but nobody seems to explicate it. It's clearly a linguistic question what the literal meaning of the phrase is in context -- for example, does 'wind' here mean "traverse," "bend," or "wrap"?; what's the relevant sense of 'circuit'?; was this a familiar collocation?, etc. It's more of a literary question what figurative or suggestive meaning Whitman was after, though I don't know that one can cut this distinction so cleanly. Anyway, I've forwarded the numerous useful comments and suggestions to my friend, who was extremely grateful for the help. Geoff Nunberg > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 13:58:30 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:58:30 -0500 Subject: Just in!! Message-ID: For what it's worth, I just saw in the Poughkeepsie Journal the following: _Irab_ for "improperly rejected absentee ballot." This is Michigan's answer to Florida's chad. Regards, and Happy New Year to you all. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Dec 30 14:39:09 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:39:09 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812300500.mBTBkSxY008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > All true, from your view of dialect. But WRT standard English, I'm an > *observer* and not a speaker. My annoying experience throughout > approximately six decades of life speaking and listening is that the > presence of a BE speaker has no effect upon English as Northern white > people choose to speak it, even when I have attempted to inject my > intuitions into a conversation. At M.I.T., white students didn't give > a second's thought to "correcting" my intuitions _on the spot_ when I > had been asked for them by a fellow-student who was not to be a native > speaker of English. It used to ass me to death. Damn! You'd think that > at least they'd have waited till later, taken the foreign students > aside and explained to them, outside of my presence, that the sE > intuitions of the colored are untrustworthy by definition, since those > people know the standard dialect only from books and not from > immersion in some variety of it from birth. Amen! but from a speaker of Southern White English, Wilson. I've had syntacticians reject my intuitions about English (within the past few days, in fact) because i don't have native intuitions about English. My born to English-speaking parents in the US self still hasn't gotten over how bizarre that is. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Tue Dec 30 14:40:14 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:40:14 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) In-Reply-To: <200812300500.mBTBkSxY008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been in DIGEST mode over the holiday break, hence the delay in responding: > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > practices at the magazine. >> My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the Time data to >> journalistic usage more generally, On the other hand .... During the past year, I've had my students use the TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time) as part of papers they've written on 40-50 different syntactic / stylistic shifts in American English from the 1920s-2000s. These have covered a wide variety of topics -- modals (shall/will, will/going to, can/may), preposition stranding, several phenomena with verbal complementation, aspects of morphology (gender, plurals, +/-regular verbal forms), get vs be passives, progressives, subjunctive, etc etc etc (see list at http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/elang325/project.asp). The data from the corpus has been quite useful. In most cases, it models very nicely what others have already found with smaller, "boutique" corpora. In addition, though, I mentioned the following yesterday in a private email (which I didn't post directly to ADS-L): The TIME corpus is more or less a stopgap, until a larger, more diverse, more balanced corpus of historical American English is available. I'm currently working on a 300 million word "Corpus of Historical American English" (COHA), which will complement the nearly 400 million word Corpus of Contemporary American English (COCA): http://www.americancorpus.org . COHA will cover approximately 1810-present, and it will be balanced (for each decade, and therefore overall as well) between fiction, popular magazines, newspapers, and other non-fiction. Once completed, this will allow us to examine -- for the first time -- how specific changes have spread over time through different genres in American English. Thus the TIME corpus -- while quite useful for many things -- is more or less a stopgap for the 1900s, until COHA is completed. ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 14:50:58 2008 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:50:58 -0500 Subject: Merrill-Lynch econo-speak: ringfence, premia Message-ID: from a Global Economics report for 11.26.08: *ringfences* and *premia *[pl. premium]. *The government becomes riskier * As the government ringfences a greater share of the private sector, it is transferring risk to itself. Government risk premia –whether in CDS markets or in yield curves– are likely to rise everywhere, particularly in countries with large budget deficits and high starting levels of government debt (see Table 6 and FX theme 2). I have never seen either of these. The first seems a British import but the second may just be finance professor jargon. A search for *ringfences*finds a Financial Times headline from September 15 2008: "Japan ringfences assets" by Michiyo Nakamoto in Tokyo. A blog* *named* *London Banker for September 12 gives an explanation of the term: "The principle of using local assets for local recovery is known as the 'ring fence' – the idea being that insolvency drops an invisible 'ring fence' around any valuable assets at the borders to meet claims arising within the borders. No country is more assiduous in weaving the ring fence than the United States of America. It is a very successful strategy for US creditors. US creditors of failed international banks tend to recover disproportionately relative to creditors anywhere else. The ring fence contains all these choicest assets for US creditors, and all the international creditors are forced to pick among the dross of foreign assets to eke out a recovery, only receiving any residual US assets remaining after US creditors get 100 percent recovery." A Stanford Univ webpage contains the phrase "risk premia": http://www.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/mia/prb/mia_prb2.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 17:44:26 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: Just in!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OOPS Regards in spite of my oops, David Barnhart at highlands.com -----Original Message----- From: kevin mcgowan [mailto:clunis at umich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:20 AM To: David Barnhart Subject: Re: Just in!! it really says "Michigan" and not "Minnesota"? How odd. I guess all of us fly-over 'M' states look the same even from upstate NY. :) k On Dec 30, 2008, at 8:58 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: Just in!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > For what it's worth, I just saw in the Poughkeepsie Journal the > following: > > > > _Irab_ for "improperly rejected absentee ballot." This is > Michigan's answer > to Florida's chad. > > > > Regards, and Happy New Year to you all. > > > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > !DSPAM:495a29e9150291493215846! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 17:50:09 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:50:09 -0600 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812301440.mBUBoUtI010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Davies > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:40 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I've been in DIGEST mode over the holiday break, hence the > delay in responding: > > > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other > than Time, to > > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > > practices at the magazine. > > >> My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the > Time data to > >> journalistic usage more generally, > > On the other hand .... > > During the past year, I've had my students use the TIME > Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time) as part of papers they've > written on 40-50 different syntactic / stylistic shifts in > American English from the 1920s-2000s. These have covered a > wide variety of topics -- modals (shall/will, will/going to, > can/may), preposition stranding, several phenomena with > verbal complementation, aspects of morphology (gender, > plurals, +/-regular verbal forms), get vs be passives, > progressives, subjunctive, etc etc etc (see list at > http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/elang325/project.asp). The > data from the corpus has been quite useful. In most cases, it > models very nicely what others have already found with > smaller, "boutique" corpora. > > In addition, though, I mentioned the following yesterday in a > private email (which I didn't post directly to ADS-L): > > The TIME corpus is more or less a stopgap, until a larger, > more diverse, more balanced corpus of historical American > English is available. I'm currently working on a 300 million > word "Corpus of Historical American English" (COHA), which > will complement the nearly 400 million word Corpus of > Contemporary American English (COCA): http://www.americancorpus.org . > COHA will cover approximately 1810-present, and it will be > balanced (for each decade, and therefore overall as well) > between fiction, popular magazines, newspapers, and other > non-fiction. Once completed, this will allow us to examine -- > for the first time -- how specific changes have spread over > time through different genres in American English. Thus the > TIME corpus -- while quite useful for many things -- is more > or less a stopgap for the 1900s, until COHA is completed. > > ============================================ > Mark Davies > Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics > Brigham Young University > (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 > Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu > > ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** > ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** > ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** > ============================================ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 17:53:03 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:53:03 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered Message-ID: Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with oxymoron pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with em PHA sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word film-as one or two syllables. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:04:11 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:04:11 -0800 Subject: pronunciation encountered In-Reply-To: <200812301753.mBUBoU3w010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: pronunciation encountered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her > family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with > oxymoron > pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn > > Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with > em PHA > sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word > film-as one or two syllables. new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 18:18:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:18:53 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" Message-ID: Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: "She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ haRASSment!" -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:31:51 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:31:51 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered ("oxymoron") Message-ID: And the normal pronunciation makes it easy for young students to perceive and enjoy the etymology--the cognacity with "moron"! --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:04:11 -0800 >From: Arnold Zwicky >> >On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: >>> >> Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with oxymoron pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >> >> Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with em PHA sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word film-as one or two syllables. > >new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 18:46:52 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812301749.mBUBoU3i010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > > Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? 100 million. -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:50:18 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:50:18 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) In-Reply-To: <200812301749.mBUBoU3i010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? 100+ million words, 1920s-2000s. Of course there are larger *text archives* (Google Books, NY Times, other newspapers, etc). But all of these have very limited architectures and interfaces: -- find the first occurrence of a word -- show all 18,489 occurrences of a word (one ... by ... one) -- etc etc None of those text archives can really do things like: -- (easily) see the frequency over time (decade by decade, year by year) -- use part of speech or lemmatization (thus pretty limited for syntactic change) -- wildcards; see all matching forms (thus pretty limited for morphological change) -- collocates (thus pretty limited for semantic change) -- use the frequency in different historical periods as part of the query (e.g. collocates of Word X in Time Y vs Time Z) The TIME Corpus can do all of these. Of course, it is just one source in just one genre -- hence the need for something like the Corpus of Historical American English. ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:09:34 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:09:34 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered In-Reply-To: <314249A6-3073-4966-83FE-36F9131E1F2C@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0800 12/30/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: David Barnhart >>Subject: pronunciation encountered >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her >>family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with >>oxymoron >>pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >> >>Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with >>em PHA >>sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word >>film-as one or two syllables. > >new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check >the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. > >arnold > Beat me to the punch--I was sure this would turn out to be an officially received secondary pronunciation, based on other Greek words, but evidently not. (Does anyone know how it would be stressed in Greek?) Maybe David's relatives were thinking of Cimarron. Actually, it appears that there is someone named (I hope pseudonymously) "Ox Cimarron" who's quite active on the yahoo.com Q and A site. That would correspond to the above pronunciation of "oxymoron" except for a secondarily stressed /a/ on the final syllable as opposed to the destressed schwa David reports. If I were going to stress "oxymoron" on the antepenult, that's how I'd do it. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:27:28 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:27:28 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812301018x680e617q6329d0a00931e96e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1:18 PM -0500 12/30/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: > >"She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ >haRASSment!" Not so weird with that stress on the ass, which allows the /h/ to drop, as in "an historical accident", "an hysterical reaction", as opposed to *"a history". What would be really strange is "an HARassment". (Wilson is alluding here, I take it, to our recent thread on "an hero" & friends.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:30:27 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:30:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" In-Reply-To: <20081228172312.GA20910@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the correction, Jesse. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: Jesse Sheidlower [jester at panix.com] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:23 PM To: Shapiro, Fred Cc: American Dialect Society Subject: Re: Antedating of "Disco" On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 07:50:30PM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: > > The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" > This is not correct. The referenced article only used the compound "disco sound"; OED already has an 1965 quot. for "disco beat", if we're accepting compounds. I've edited Wikipedia to reflect this. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Dec 30 21:36:56 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:36:56 -0600 Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 In-Reply-To: <200812281938.mBSDwamP007417@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A few days ago Sam Clements independently located the May 5, 1936 attestation of golf "mulligan," but it turns out that Paul Dickson got there first (sorry, Sam). Below my signoff is the first part of William Safire's "On Language" column; see the last paragraph. Btw, with regard to the etymology reported by Safire, he correctly comments: 'A nice tale, but with ³no contemporary attestation².' G. Cohen * * * * NY Times March 23, 2008 On Language Mulligan Primary By WILLIAM SAFIRE Or a firehouse caucus? Democrats are in a mulligan stew. That thick, rich soup is a hodgepodge of leftover vegetables, potatoes, onions, stale bread and scraps of meat, spiced with the views of assorted pollsters, walkie-talking heads and superdelegates. An early appearance of the Irish-sounding word can be found in The Yukon Midnight Sun in Alaska in 1904: ³All the roadhouses served big Christmas dinners and most of them made a mulligan.² You don¹t need that information, or to know that mulligan must not be confused with the curry-flavored mulligatawny soup of East Indian origin. But to stay politically au courant, you do need to know the other meaning of the mysteriously eponymous noun mulligan, which is now being bandied about as an adjective in the slipstream media. Early this month, Robert Siegel, a host of NPR¹s ³All Things Considered,² asked the governor of Florida, Charles Crist (a Republican who prefers the lovably informal ³Charlie,² but I resist appellative manipulation), about ³what some are calling the redo ‹ the mulligan primary.² Next day, on CNN, Bill Schneider opined about ³what I call mulligan primaries or contests of some sort ‹ that is, do-overs . . . ² The Washington Post promptly demanded to know: ³Should the presidential primary season include mulligans?² Who is Mulligan, and what is he that all media swains commend him? Nancy Stulack, archivist at the U.S. Golf Association, said that the story most widely accepted focuses on a gentleman named David Mulligan who played golf at a club outside Montreal in the 1920s. As he teed off, his first swing sliced the ball into the nearby woods; refusing to accept that, Mulligan apologized to his golfing partners, took out a fresh golf ball and teed off again. His friends understood his frustration and allowed what later became known as a mulligan, or ³extra stroke in a friendly game, not counted on the scorecard.² Mulligan thus achieved fame in eponymy in the company of the hated Captain Boycott, the beloved earl of Sandwich and the daring Amelia Bloomer. A nice tale, but with ³no contemporary attestation²; the serious slangsleuth Paul Dickson reports the earliest print citation to be an A.P. dispatch of May 5, 1936, crediting the use of mulligan to Marvin McIntyre, an aide to F.D.R., which the reporter defined as ³links-ology for the second shot employed after the previously dubbed shot.² The word was popularized in the coverage of President Eisenhower¹s golf outings. On 12/28/08 1:37 PM, "Sam Clements" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > Ben Zimmer and I have been playing tag with this one for some years. I = > found 1938(Henry McLemore, the sports writer) and Ben found that = > McLemore had used it in 1937. > > Using Newspaperarchive, _Big Springs(TX) Daily Herald_ May 5 1936 4/5 > > A story about FDR's press secretary, Marvin McIntyre, who seems to have = > been an avid golfer(from searching around papers of the time). > > "Another McIntyre-ism is the use of the 'mulligan'---links-ology for = > a second shot employed after a previously dubbed shot." > > Sam Clements > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 21:57:46 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:57:46 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812271658.mBRBkZQH005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish American Princess below is only a library visit away from becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously antedates the OED: "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 "Geoff Miller (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ > 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the > following, probably authentic occurrence: > > > Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 > 1969-70 > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > Fred Shapiro > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 30 22:04:20 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:04:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065EDD80@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Not exactly; the OED doesn't have a lemma for "Jewish American Princess". It's under _princess_, where there's a 1966 for "Jewish princess" but nothing at all for the fuller form. The 1970 LAT cite doesn't show "JAP". Also, three days ago Fred did acknowledge this very quotation: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0807C&L=ADS-L&P=R4424&I=-3 Also, four years ago Jerome Foster mentioned the Iota Alpha Pi story, in his version as being inspired by "Jewish American Princess" rather than the other way around: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ADS-L&P=R982&I=-3 Jesse Sheidlower OED On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 03:57:46PM -0600, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish American Princess below is only a library visit away from becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously antedates the OED: > > "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 > "Geoff Miller (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ > > 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the > > following, probably authentic occurrence: > > > > > > Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 > > 1969-70 > > > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 22:10:11 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:10:11 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812302204.mBUBoAON025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Note to self: 1. Check archives 2. Bang head against wall 3. Repeat > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 4:04 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Not exactly; the OED doesn't have a lemma for "Jewish > American Princess". It's under _princess_, where there's a > 1966 for "Jewish princess" but nothing at all for the fuller > form. The 1970 LAT cite doesn't show "JAP". > > Also, three days ago Fred did acknowledge this very quotation: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0807C&L=ADS- > L&P=R4424&I=-3 > > Also, four years ago Jerome Foster mentioned the Iota Alpha > Pi story, in his version as being inspired by "Jewish > American Princess" rather than the other way around: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ADS- > L&P=R982&I=-3 > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 03:57:46PM -0600, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish > American Princess below is only a library visit away from > becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously > antedates the OED: > > > > "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los > > Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 "Geoff Miller > (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American > Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > > > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish > > > American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably > > > authentic occurrence: > > > > > > > > > Transatlantic Reviewý - Page 69 > > > 1969-70 > > > > > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > > > > > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Tue Dec 30 22:27:44 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:27:44 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered Message-ID: I heard an odd pronunciation today, on NPR: casualties as caz UL ities. The report was from Gaza, by someone who clearly wasn't a native speaker of English. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > >>>Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her >>>family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with >>>oxymoron >>>pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >>> >>>Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with >>>em PHA >>>sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word >>>film-as one or two syllables. >> >>new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check >>the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. >> >>arnold >> >Beat me to the punch--I was sure this would turn out to be an >officially received secondary pronunciation, based on other Greek >words, but evidently not. (Does anyone know how it would be stressed >in Greek?) Maybe David's relatives were thinking of Cimarron. >Actually, it appears that there is someone named (I hope >pseudonymously) "Ox Cimarron" who's quite active on the yahoo.com Q >and A site. That would correspond to the above pronunciation of >"oxymoron" except for a secondarily stressed /a/ on the final >syllable as opposed to the destressed schwa David reports. If I were >going to stress "oxymoron" on the antepenult, that's how I'd do it. >LH >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:01:52 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:01:52 -0800 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' Message-ID: heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:34:51 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:34:51 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310002.mBUBoAUT025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there > are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working > construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. > > there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, > missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, > inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the > appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the like. "Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* construction/retail." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 01:59:07 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:59:07 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <1230683691.495abe2be8470@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 7:34 PM -0500 12/30/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there >> are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working >> construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. >> >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > >There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the >like. > >"Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* >construction/retail." > Then there are the constructions (no pun intended) with gerundive objects: "work shipping" "work shipping and receiving" or places "work the mail room" or times "work nights/the night shift" although the latter "objects" are more likely adverbial rather than nominal. In fact none of these behave wholly like nouns; for one thing they don't readily passivize: "{Construction/Shipping/Retail/The night shift} has long been worked in this town for meager pay" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 31 02:04:51 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:04:51 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310002.mBUBlGVI024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, > missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, > inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the > appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. - There are, I think, other examples of "work N". To my mind right now come "work sales", "work retail", and "work landscaping". I don't know the relative frequencies but I'm sure I've heard all of these in the wild. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:03:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:03:01 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310034.mBUBlGW0024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Work construction" is a "standard" BE construction . However, it appears to be unique. I can't recall ever having heard "work [some other kind of job] and nothing that I've been able to make up, except for "work a good, decent, etc., job," with the meaning, "have a job that's good in some way": pays well, has regular hours, plenty of goof-off time, easy-going bossman, or whatever, feels real. Another phrase with a single meaning is "run on the road": work for Amtrak in a job that entails working on a moving train: Pullman porter, conductor, bartender, engineer, cook, dining-car waiter, etc., as opposed to working in the railroad yards as an oiler, brakeman, cleaner, or in some other such maintenance job. Back in the day, "running on the road" was restricted to Pullman porter, dining-car waiter, or cook. All other jobs were for whites only. Once I knew a black man passing for white - he looked liked Sen. Joseph McCarthy's separated-at-birth twin - who worked as a dining-car steward, roughly equivalent to maitre d', on the old Katy - for MKT or Missouri-Kansas-Texas Raiload - Line. The town of Katy, Texas, is named for this now-defunct railroad. One of my uncles made a career of running on the road as a dining-car waiter. By the time that he retired, he had a permanent crease across his thighs from 55 years of leaning against tables while serving patrons. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "work construction" 'do construction work' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there >> are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working >> construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. >> >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > > There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the > like. > > "Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* > construction/retail." > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:10:57 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:10:57 EST Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: If my brief query seemed critical in any way, I apologize. That was emphatically not my intent. Having spent my entire career housed in an English Department, and having taught Whitman's poetry many times (though I am in no way a Whitman expert), I assumed that the lines in a question had been discussed, glossed, and interpreted by literary scholars numerous times. I still find it surprising if the scholarship is silent on the subject. The question of interpretatation is of course "linguistic" in the trivial senses that Geoff mentions, but literary scholars regularly check dictionaries and, if they are worth their salt, they make themselves pretty familiar with "familiar collocations" in the poet's works. They certainly do not confine their work to "figurative or suggestive meanings" (which, moreover, are not outside the proper domain of linguistics). Moreover, the responses that Geoff's inquiry received were not dependent upon sophisticated linguistic analysis. Except for (on the whole) failing to refer to established literary scholarship, the respondents did exactly what a bright junior English major should do: examined their own linguistic intuitions, drew upon knowledge of 19th century American culture, referred to what they knew about Whitman's own life, and compared the passage to other passages by the same poet. And made some guesses. I was not complaining that the query was inappropriate for ADS-L (and I do not think that it was inappropriate). I personally found it to be an interesting question, and some of the answers struck me as interesting and maybe even useful to the person who made the inquiry. I was simply (1) expressing my surprise that the standard literary scholarship contributed nothing to the attempts at interpreting the lines--and (2) observing that, though linguistics is supposedly somewhere near the core of the purpose of ADS-L, very little of a linguistic nature was brought to bear on the topic in the responses--because, it seems to me, linguistics has very little to offer the topic (except in the elementary ways that Geoff references). In a message dated 12/30/08 12:58:51 AM, nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > > From: ronbutters at AOL.COM > > Date: December 29, 2008 12:17:10 PM PST > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > > > > > Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a > > literary question, not a linguistic one. > > I think I mentioned in my original query that as best I and my > correspondent can tell the Whitman scholarship is uninformative on > this one -- at least, lots of people quote the line but nobody seems > to explicate it. It's clearly a linguistic question what the literal > meaning of the phrase is in context -- for example, does 'wind' here > mean "traverse," "bend," or "wrap"?; what's the relevant sense of > 'circuit'?; was this a familiar collocation?, etc. It's more of a > literary question what figurative or suggestive meaning Whitman was > after, though I don't know that one can cut this distinction so cleanly. > > Anyway, I've forwarded the numerous useful comments and suggestions to > my friend, who was extremely grateful for the help. > > Geoff Nunberg > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:55:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:55:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" In-Reply-To: <200812301927.mBUBoAGL025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, I missed "an hero'," fortunately. FWIW, "hArassment" seems to be the preferred pronunciation amongst the colored. But sound-change is rarely predictable. There are, undoubtedly, some number of BE speakers who prefer "haRASSment. By coincidence, I happen not to be acquainted with them. Usually, it's possible to come up with a how, but the why is usually mysterious. For, example, for some speakers, the claim that _an_ before a syllable with unstressed /hV/ is trivially explained by a rule of h-Drop under just those circumstances is less than convincing, since it's not an easy thing to persuade all informants that the presence of the /h/ is a mere illusion. In the present instance, for example, I say "_an_ historian" simply because I consciously choose to and not because of any unconscious dropping of the /h/, just as I choose to pronounce "your" as [jor] and "you're" as [jur], instead of the other way around, as is common among Northern-white speakers. -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1:18 PM -0500 12/30/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: >> >>"She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ >>haRASSment!" > > Not so weird with that stress on the ass, which allows the /h/ to > drop, as in "an historical accident", "an hysterical reaction", as > opposed to *"a history". What would be really strange is "an > HARassment". (Wilson is alluding here, I take it, to our recent > thread on "an hero" & friends.) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 06:41:53 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:41:53 -0500 Subject: economics Message-ID: This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the past week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics and a tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 15:07:09 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:07:09 -0800 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <200812310642.mBUBoUIS025067@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 10:41 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: economics > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the > past > week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back > to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The > latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics > and a > tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. it looks like this might be on the way to becoming a affix, cutting loose from the original "economics". at the moment, these still have the feel of portmanteau words for me (with a tinge of ostentatious creativity and playfulness), but things could change. The element - dar seems to have gone pretty far down this path (though it's not yet in Michael Quinion's Ologies and Isms, where it could keep company with -((e)t)eria and -gate and others); the original was "gaydar", a portmanteau of "gay" and "radar", but then all sorts of other elements replaced the "gay" of "gaydar", as in "Jewdar". there are links to three Language Log postings on -dar in my recent posting on "manecdotes" and "brobituaries": http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/manecdotes-and-brobituaries/ arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Dec 31 17:48:29 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:48:29 -0800 Subject: brownie point (1952) In-Reply-To: <4A3E5332-5C8E-41D9-9444-B00F47CA9E9D@stanford.edu> Message-ID: It's not the oldest published use of the term, which is from 1951, but it's the oldest that I've found that unambiguously uses it in the context of the Brownie Girl Scout organization. "Brownie Troop Gives Party for Mothers," Modesto-Bee and News-Herald (newspaperarchive.com), 17 June 1952, p. 6. "Mrs. Rose presented a Brownie bracelet to Linda Hickle, first prize winner in a Brownie point contest." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:04:55 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:04:55 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" Message-ID: Judge Mathis: "So, besides everything else, you think that [your older brother] dislikes your wife." Late thirty-ish, white male speaker: "Yes, sir. He thinks that she took me away from him at a young age. He's been _grudge-holding against_ my wife for years!" -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:11:22 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <200812310642.mBUBlGao024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it's pure chance that these new words use an actual bound root as their second element with an etymologically relevant meaning. Herb On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: economics > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the past > week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back > to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The > latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics and a > tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:38:57 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:38:57 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 Message-ID: Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's Law" in its now well-known sense in 1953. Scientific American, September 1952 "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. 179f. p.181 col. 1 At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go wrong, it will.' p.182 col. 3 The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with Murphy's law. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:40:48 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:40:48 -0500 Subject: header should read 1952 was Re: [ADS-L] antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 In-Reply-To: <20081231133857.5sn0fyhpw8c0wc84@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Stephen Goranson : > Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's > Law" in its > now well-known sense in 1953. > > Scientific American, September 1952 > "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine > telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. > 179f. > > p.181 col. 1 > At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called > 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go > wrong, it will.' > > p.182 col. 3 > The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. > Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with > Murphy's law. > > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:49:20 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:49:20 -0800 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" In-Reply-To: <200812311805.mBVBmfUj006266@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judge Mathis: > > "So, besides everything else, you think that [your older brother] > dislikes your wife." > > Late thirty-ish, white male speaker: > > "Yes, sir. He thinks that she took me away from him at a young age. > He's been _grudge-holding against_ my wife for years!" i think this is a progressive, using the present participle of a verb "grudge-hold", a back-formation from the "synthetic compound" noun "grudge-holding". i've found one example in the base form: Indeed they have helped some (Bill not enough as he continues to grudge-hold and fail to utter superlatives about Barack Obama). www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=16501&view=prin there are also adjectival uses of the present participle: But what is interesting to me is that I'm not angry, mad, upset or even grudge holding against anyone. theprincessandjohnsy.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html I have trouble believing that they would be so grudge-holding against Chris Dodd . I'll be I could search the archive of some of the people who have been ... letters.salon.com/4b3ed2bb0a5ccf26de474d2c208ab539/author/index864.html and a modest number of examples of the synthetic compound noun, for instance: So Snape's continued grudge holding against James was ludicrous under the circumstances. James never used dark magic on him, ... www.leakylounge.com/Poll-Snape-s-Love-Lily-t62828.html&pid=1721051&st=60 I see no advantage to grudge holding against workers who only do what they know, but I do see value in contributing to making sure those who weren't part ... www.m-f-d.org/topic/19.000410.4uth.php arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:03:03 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:03:03 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1952 Message-ID: Another extremely important discovery by Stephen. This takes us one step closer to disproving the popular anecdote about "Murphy" being someone involved with a 1949 test at Edwards Air Force Base. The earlier the documentation, the less likely that the term and the proverb originated in 1949 and diffused widely within a very short time. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's Law" in its now well-known sense in 1953. Scientific American, September 1952 "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. 179f. p.181 col. 1 At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go wrong, it will.' p.182 col. 3 The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with Murphy's law. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:23:50 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:23:50 -0800 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310205.mBUBoUJw010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "work construction" 'do construction work' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > - > > There are, I think, other examples of "work N". To my mind right now > come "work sales", "work retail", and "work landscaping". I don't know > the relative frequencies but I'm sure I've heard all of these in the > wild. yes, indeed. here's one example of each. more can be googled up. so it looks like there's a small idiom pattern "work N", and people pick up specific Ns in the pattern one by one. I worked sales for this company long enough to put thousands of miles on my vehicle running sales leads. www.judysbook.com/cities/houston-tx/BtoB~Builders-and-Contractors-/ 5403/Concrete_Forever.htm When I worked retail I used to bring a second pair of shoes to change into ... I worked retail many moons ago. www.wisebread.com/retail-job-lessons-learning I worked landscaping as a teen, and it's been a personal hobby the few times I' ve been fortunate enough to have a yard (none lately). www.city-data.com/forum/huntsville-madison-decatur-area/475196-n-alabama-landscaping.html > > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:25:45 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:25:45 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CACF@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and Comparative Psychology. A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 p.204 As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:24:14 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:24:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Sod's Law" Message-ID: "Sod's Law" is the British counterpart to "Murphy's Law." OED's first use for the former is dated 1970. Google Books shows what is probably a legitimate 1963 occurrence of "Sod's Law," in Shipbuilding & shipping record; a journal of shipbuilding, ... v.102 1963 Jul-Dec, pages 95 and 135. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 31 19:31:09 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:31:09 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231142545.6kf572x2twskgw00@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's the month date from? Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: > Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and > Comparative > Psychology. > A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 > p.204 > As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second > law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong > it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:34:33 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:34:33 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231142545.6kf572x2twskgw00@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Even better! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and Comparative Psychology. A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 p.204 As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:37:08 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:37:08 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231193109.GA21104@panix.com> Message-ID: From the paper copy (of the journal; her book was 1953), above the title: "$7.00 per volume Single numbers $4.00 QUARTERLY: Two volumes per year [sic] May, 1951 Volume 43, Second Half (Founded in 1925 by Carl Murchison)" Stephen Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > Stephen, > > This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's > the month date from? > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and >> Comparative >> Psychology. >> A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 >> p.204 >> As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of >> the second >> law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can >> go wrong >> it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. >> >> Stephen Goranson >> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 31 19:40:15 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:40:15 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231143708.8ojb64tt0k0w0c88@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks very much. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:37:08PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: > From the paper copy (of the journal; her book was 1953), above the title: > "$7.00 per volume Single numbers $4.00 > QUARTERLY: Two volumes per year [sic] > May, 1951 > Volume 43, Second Half > (Founded in 1925 by Carl Murchison)" > > Stephen > > Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > >> Stephen, >> >> This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's >> the month date from? >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>> Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and >>> Comparative >>> Psychology. >>> A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 >>> p.204 >>> As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of >>> the second >>> law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can >>> go wrong >>> it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. >>> >>> Stephen Goranson >>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 19:54:12 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:54:12 -0500 Subject: A note on black naming practices Message-ID: For all that I know, this may still be a custom. But, IAC, my mother - 97 on 9 January - has informed me that *way* back in the day, it was often customary for black children to be named after *foreign* dignitaries. E.g., Cudn Pope Harrold was actually "Pope Leo [XIII] Harrold" and Cudn Hallie Prothrow. was actually "Hail Victoria Prothrow." Probably everyone here of any level of maturity is aware of the once-extreme popularity of "Roosevelt," still alive in the name of Rosevelt[sic] Colvin of the New England Patriots. However, the most extreme instance that I know of was my Saint Louis buddy, Frank Willis, actually "Franklin Delano Roosevelt Willis." BTW, is everyone aware that the name of Delano, CA, The Raisin Capital of the World, is pronounced "deLAY no" and not "DELLa no"? -Wilson ––– All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From listcatcher at REXSTOCKLIN.COM Wed Dec 31 22:18:39 2008 From: listcatcher at REXSTOCKLIN.COM (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:18:39 -0500 Subject: WOTY - now fortified with Grant Barrett! Message-ID: As I am unaware of an appropriate blog or some such vehicle to leave a comment, I'd like to expand on Grant's entry into the WOTY noms: >age-doping: The falsification of records to show that an athlete >meets participation requirements for a sporting event. This issue >arose with Chinese gymnasts in the Beijing Summer Olympics. I'd like to say a similar phenomenon occurs when, say, creating one's resume'. That is, the intentional deletion of jobs & other year-specific data that date the potential applicant as "too old" (I suppose, going the other direction, manufacturing jobs & education data is a form of youth-oriented age-doping. But neither the missus nor I have ANY experience in such an endeavor as we have done plenty of the former) I'd also LOVE to see a countering term for TBTF, perhaps TBTB (as in too big to be, a concept in which one considers an enterprise that shouldn't exist due to its insouciant, inefficient and/or consumptive existence) Just a shot from the cheap seats... Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From uvadavidg at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 00:28:00 2008 From: uvadavidg at GMAIL.COM (David Gignilliat) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200811302144.mAUBl8WI013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by this . My mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts asking me about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly saying no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... alas On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a > library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener > Library, often, patrons would ask me > > "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains > so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a > person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, > asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow > you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has > no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone that > has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a > question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether > he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get > out of. > > I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they > could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by > asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's > request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act > of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that > i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. > They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only > jollying me. > > Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who is > bothered by this, but > > AAARRRGGGHHH!!! > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- David K. Gignilliat Woodbridge, VA 703-217-4380 http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 1 00:34:13 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:34:13 -0500 Subject: "wise, holy, just. and good" In-Reply-To: A<200811300650.mAU6oWNo009457@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A version of this is in the early Articles of Faith and Covenant, which apparently date from 1629. As reprinted in Nathaniel Morton, New England's Memorial 460 (6th ed. 1855), the Confession of Faith contained in the Articles begins: "I do believe with my heart and confess with my mouth:-- That there is but one only true God in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; each of them God, and all of them one and the same infinite, eternal God: most wise, holy, just, merciful, and blessed for ever." The Articles were drawn up by a Mr. Higginson, a non-conformist minister. I suspect that they were based on a model from 16th or 17th century England. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:50 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "wise, holy, just. and good" What is the origin of the phrase describing God (and sometimes man) as "wise, holy, just, and good"? Google Books takes it back to 1796, in John Gill, A Complete Body of Divinity. (It also claims a 1584 date for The Creeds of Christendom ..., by Philip Schaff, but this is actually 1877.) It is apparently part of the creed of "Independent (or Congregational) Dissenters", from the 1830s. But does it come from an earlier writing of the "dissenters", which might place it in the late 1500s, or perhaps from a Latin text, or from the Bible? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 01:08:05 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:08:05 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010028.mAUBl89g013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me greatly. There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or that the question is of particular importance to the asker. What wording is preferred? BB On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Gignilliat > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by > this . My > mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts > asking me > about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly > saying > no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... > > alas > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >> Library, often, patrons would ask me >> >> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> >> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains >> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a >> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, >> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has >> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >> that >> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a >> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether >> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get >> out of. >> >> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by >> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act >> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that >> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >> jollying me. >> >> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >> is >> bothered by this, but >> >> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >> >> -Wilson >> >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >> to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > David K. Gignilliat > Woodbridge, VA > 703-217-4380 > http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 01:34:56 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:34:56 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200806140159.m5E1xSCI001500@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: if anyone's still tracking this... tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ someone, ie, to interrogate/torture for information. > > > > A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we > > were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back > > to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: > > > > "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." > > > > A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a > > set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. > > That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all > > in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, > > which keeps everything from falling off. > > > > But are there other television shows or television characters which > > have become verbs? > > > > ----- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 1 02:02:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:02:44 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <31a485c70811301734m3a36c6b5qe5e53803a3da9ddc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:38 PM -0500 11/30/08, Marc Velasco wrote: >if anyone's still tracking this... >tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ someone, >ie, to interrogate/torture for information. Speaking of the verbal MacGyver, here's one in print from today's NYT Book Review: The father, a dentist who has quit his practice in Fairbanks, imagines himself as a high-north survivalist. He is, in fact, woefully unprepared. He does not know the name of the nearest inhabited island or how to build a cache for winter food or how to repair the cabin's damaged roof or how to keep the bears away. (Not everyone who lives in places like Alaska is born knowing how to MacGyver a water filter out of bark.) [review by Tom Bissell of David Vann's book, _Legend of a Suicide_] LH > >> > >> > A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >> > were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back >> > to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >> > >> > "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." >> > >> > A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a >> > set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. >> > That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all >> > in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, >> > which keeps everything from falling off. >> > >> > But are there other television shows or television characters which >> > have become verbs? >> > >> > ----- >> >> > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 03:27:30 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:27:30 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! Message-ID: In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: "This is where we need to give the devil his do. " (Just faintly reminiscent of Papa Bush being coy.) AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 03:37:09 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:37:09 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! In-Reply-To: <200812010328.mAUBl89o013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > > In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations > contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: > "This is where we need > to give the devil his do. " "Give (someone) his/her do" is covered in the Eggcorn Database entry for "due -> do": http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/471/do/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 03:43:35 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:43:35 -0500 Subject: "gerrymander" antedatings (by about 2 months) Message-ID: The OED has "gerrymander" (n.) from 1812 May 23. 1) Repertory, published as The Repertory & General Advertiser; Date: 03-27-1812; Volume: IX; Issue: 25; Page: [2]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [EAN]: [Title of the illustration:] "The Gerry-mander. A new species of Monster, which appeared in Essex South District in January last." 2) Repertory, published as The Repertory & General Advertiser; Date: 03-27-1812; Volume: IX; Issue: 25; Page: [3]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [EAN]: "We have thrown the Monster Gerry-mander upon his back; and we trust that in this position he will scratch out the eyes of his parents." [The illustration is printed with North at the left, so the head and feet are uppermost.] 3) The diary of William Bentley, D.D., pastor of the East Church, Salem, Massachusetts. Salem, Mass.: The Essex Institute, 1905-14. Reprint, Gloucester Mass.: P. Smith, 1962. Vol. IV, page 402. 1812 April 2: "The division of this County into districts has given an opportunity for a Caracatura stamped at Boston & freely circulated here called the Gerrymander. The towns as they lie are disposed as part of a monster whose feet & claws are Salem and Marblehead. It is one of those political tricks which have success has far as they go. This division favours much the hopes of retaining a republican senate, & therefore must be a sure object of party vengeance." [The bend of the neck is Methuen and the head (at the northeast) is Saslisbury.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 03:53:50 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:53:50 -0500 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200811301855.mAUBl8Qc013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the text. The same for astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach-potato-style.html or these www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato-you-decide.html www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. Herb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually > talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an > eggcorn. BB > > First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: > > ----- > YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 > ) > > A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) > > Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor > ----- > > There are also items that are clearly typos: > > ----- > 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers > were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression "couch > potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms > the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 > ) > > What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly > evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the > archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm > ) > ----- > > There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: > > ----- > Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... > > "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd get > home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the > couch and watch TV.... > > "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a > significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin > gold-medallist Duff Gibson. > > (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 > ) > ----- > > Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a typo: > > ----- > 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour before > practice/game, so half of the team shows up; > * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't > exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most > his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato > ) > > The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when > Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should happen. > > > On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Herb Stahlke >> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >> column: >> >> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other aspects >> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >> year. >> >> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number drops >> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 04:02:49 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:02:49 -0800 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812010353.mAUBl8Ag013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If it's an eggcorn, wouldn't it be consistent rather than one in the title and another in the text? Also, I don't know that the distant position of "o" and "a" on the QWERTY board is necessarily telling. Just guessing, it seems reasonable that "a" after "o" is easier than "u" after "o" because it's an alternation of hands. Without looking at each one, I think www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 is excellent evidence of "coach" being a typo. One other possibility is whether "couch" is a universal word. It is the default in Seattle for a davenport/sofa, but I have the feeling that "sofa" is more common in some regions, in which case the eggcorn case would be stronger. BB On Nov 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious > plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at > > www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory > > where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the > text. The same for > > astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html > findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 > www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- > www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 > www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 > archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html > > It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo > > ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach- > potato-style.html > > or these > > www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 > mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato- > you-decide.html > www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html > twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 > www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ > www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 > talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html? > forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 > findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 > http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 > adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html > > That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of > "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, > and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given > the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip > typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and > I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other > hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But > there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. > > Herb > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually >> talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an >> eggcorn. BB >> >> First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: >> >> ----- >> YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >> ) >> >> A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) >> >> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor >> ----- >> >> There are also items that are clearly typos: >> >> ----- >> 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers >> were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression >> "couch >> potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms >> the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 >> ) >> >> What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly >> evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the >> archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm >> ) >> ----- >> >> There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: >> >> ----- >> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... >> >> "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd >> get >> home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the >> couch and watch TV.... >> >> "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a >> significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin >> gold-medallist Duff Gibson. >> >> (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 >> ) >> ----- >> >> Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a >> typo: >> >> ----- >> 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour >> before >> practice/game, so half of the team shows up; >> * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't >> exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most >> his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato >> ) >> >> The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when >> Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should >> happen. >> >> >> On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Herb Stahlke >>> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >>> column: >>> >>> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other >>> aspects >>> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >>> year. >>> >>> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >>> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >>> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number >>> drops >>> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >>> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >>> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >>> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >>> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:12:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:12:42 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010108.mAUBl86Y013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a question? -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who > cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me > greatly. > > There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something > else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a > request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor > and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or > that the question is of particular importance to the asker. > > What wording is preferred? BB > > On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: David Gignilliat >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by >> this . My >> mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts >> asking me >> about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly >> saying >> no, but (like you said) you're already past that point technically ... >> >> alas >> >> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >>> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >>> Library, often, patrons would ask me >>> >>> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >>> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have brains >>> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you ask a >>> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very act, >>> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >>> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question has >>> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >>> that >>> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask him a >>> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him whether >>> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way get >>> out of. >>> >>> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >>> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question by >>> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >>> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very act >>> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense that >>> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >>> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >>> jollying me. >>> >>> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >>> is >>> bothered by this, but >>> >>> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >>> >>> -Wilson >>> >>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >>> to >>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>> ----- >>> -Mark Twain >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> David K. Gignilliat >> Woodbridge, VA >> 703-217-4380 >> http://quixoticawords.blogspot.com >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 04:15:19 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:15:19 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010412.mAUBl8Gv023862@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see, thank you. I don't think I ask people if I can ask them a question but will try to remember that in the future :) On Nov 30, 2008, at 8:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > question? > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I sympathize with this. On the other hand, people at the bus stop who >> cannot say "Excuse me" but just blurt out "What time is it?" annoy me >> greatly. >> >> There are important reasons for prefacing a question with something >> else. In the case of a library, the question politely indicates a >> request for information that may impose a burden on the interlocutor >> and includes recognition that the other person's time is important or >> that the question is of particular importance to the asker. >> >> What wording is preferred? BB >> >> On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:28 PM, David Gignilliat wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: David Gignilliat >>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Good post. Make that two people that are regularly annoyed by >>> this . My >>> mother does this all the time, usually right before she starts >>> asking me >>> about my love life or for a huge favor. I've thought about jokingly >>> saying >>> no, but (like you said) you're already past that point >>> technically ... >>> >>> alas >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Wilson Gray >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> When I held a service position - the only kind that there is in a >>>> library, according to the American Library Association - in Widener >>>> Library, often, patrons would ask me >>>> >>>> "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> >>>> That used to drive me *crazy*! How is it that people can have >>>> brains >>>> so weirdly wired as not to be able to understand that, when you >>>> ask a >>>> person whether you can ask him a question, you are, by that very >>>> act, >>>> asking him a question, regardless of whether he is willing to allow >>>> you to ask him a question?!! WTF?! The person asked that question >>>> has >>>> no choice but to say yes. There's no way that he can tell someone >>>> that >>>> has already asked him a question that he *can't* / *may'nt* ask >>>> him a >>>> question when he's already asked him a question by asking him >>>> whether >>>> he can ask him a question! It's a nasty trap that there's no way >>>> get >>>> out of. >>>> >>>> I sometimes tried to point out to people who asked me whether they >>>> could ask me a question that they had already asked me a question >>>> by >>>> asking me whether they could ask me a question. Hence, the person's >>>> request for permission to do what he had already done by the very >>>> act >>>> of requesting permission to do it was necessarily, in some sense >>>> that >>>> i lack the knowledge to specify, WRONG! But they never understood. >>>> They would smile and agree with me, but I knew that they were only >>>> jollying me. >>>> >>>> Sigh! Perhaps I'm the only person in the English-speaking world who >>>> is >>>> bothered by this, but >>>> >>>> AAARRRGGGHHH!!! >>>> >>>> -Wilson >>>> >>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint >>>> to >>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>> ----- >>>> -Mark Twain >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 04:16:57 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:16:57 -0500 Subject: "gerrymander" again Message-ID: Having too late looked at the archives, I see Fred Shapiro introduced the March 27, 1812 Salem Gazette article, and John Baker pointed to the first appearance, in the Boston Gazette of March 26. (In addition to the cartoon, the BG has a long article, telling in somewhat different terms from the Salem Gazette the story of the naming, and the word "gerrymander" appears both in the title of the illustration and the text of the article.) At least the William Bentley quotation may be new! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 04:24:12 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:24:12 -0500 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812010402.mAUBl8Am013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree that it's not as strong a case for an eggcorn as I thought at first. Maybe a budding eggcorn? an oakcorn flower? But there's more here than a typo would account for. The fact that there is a cartoon, a TV comedy, and a piece of communications software with the name suggests more to the couch/coach variation than pure chance. Herb On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If it's an eggcorn, wouldn't it be consistent rather than one in the > title and another in the text? Also, I don't know that the distant > position of "o" and "a" on the QWERTY board is necessarily telling. > Just guessing, it seems reasonable that "a" after "o" is easier than > "u" after "o" because it's an alternation of hands. > > Without looking at each one, I think www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 > is excellent evidence of "coach" being a typo. > > One other possibility is whether "couch" is a universal word. It is > the default in Seattle for a davenport/sofa, but I have the feeling > that "sofa" is more common in some regions, in which case the eggcorn > case would be stronger. BB > > On Nov 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Herb Stahlke >> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> That may well account for some of the hits, and others are obvious >> plays on "couch potato." Another possible instance of a typo is at >> >> www.topix.com/winter-sports/jeff-pain/2008/10/reformed-coach-potato-sets-sights-on-skeleton-glory >> >> where "coach" occurs in the title of the article and "couch" in the >> text. The same for >> >> astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/SEP97/msg00583.html >> findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_/ai_n10103745 >> www.nursinglink.com/news/articles/4776-exercise-in-a-pill-helps-coach-potato-mice- >> www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31033 >> www.printfection.com/totalradshirts/Coach-Potato-Hooded-Sweatshirt/_p_1590224 >> archive.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/2002/3/7/630115.html >> >> It's not clear, though, that this one is a typo >> >> ablogwithoutabicycle.blogspot.com/2008/08/dnc-live-blogging-coach- >> potato-style.html >> >> or these >> >> www.zazzle.com/coach_potato_button-145296083127768035 >> mikeandkirstenschueler.blogspot.com/2007/04/pregnant-or-coach-potato- >> you-decide.html >> www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/148010-jp-coach-potato-internet-geek-2.html >> twitter.com/CemB/status/1008674712 >> www.flickr.com/photos/edgarmcgauley/1367174580/ >> www.amazon.ca/Coach-Potato-Mouse/dp/1572433841 >> talkback.zdnet.com/5208-9595-0.html? >> forumID=1&threadID=15625&messageID=311049&start=0 >> findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A18TIF1XBW9AQ/178-2635464-1957267 >> adjusting-wife.blogspot.com/2008/09/coach-potato.html >> >> That's a sampling of the first 100 hits. There are enough cases of >> "coach" in an article title but "couch" in the body of the article, >> and in decent newspapers, to make typo too weak an explanation. Given >> the positions of and on the keyboard, the usual finger-slip >> typo is unlikely. The nine instances I cite that may be eggcorns, and >> I don't know that they are, are about half of the possibles. Other >> hits may be puns or other intentional uses of the collocation. But >> there's more going on here than just the occasional typo. >> >> Herb >> >> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > > wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Looking at some of the Googits cited below, other than when actually >>> talking about a "coach," this looks like a typo rather than an >>> eggcorn. BB >>> >>> First, there are some genuine hits for people on coaches: >>> >>> ----- >>> YOU'LL JUST LOVE BEING A COACH POTATO (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n14464095 >>> ) >>> >>> A company called "Coach Potato" (http://www.coachpotato.com/) >>> >>> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glor >>> ----- >>> >>> There are also items that are clearly typos: >>> >>> ----- >>> 'Coach potato' blights name of humble spud...British potato farmers >>> were taking to the streets on Monday to call for the expression >>> "couch >>> potato" to be struck from the dictionary on the grounds that it harms >>> the vegetable's image. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&em=15570a1a20050621ah&click_id=29&art_id=qw111926412111A141&set_id=1 >>> ) >>> >>> What will the coach potato evolve into?...Indeed, what's increasingly >>> evident in television's rush into the digital age is that the >>> archetypal couch potato may be an endangered species. (http://news.cnet.co.uk/televisions/0,39029698,39194703,00.htm >>> ) >>> ----- >>> >>> There's even what looks like a blend of couch, Loach and coach: >>> >>> ----- >>> Reformed 'coach potato' sets sights on skeleton glory... >>> >>> "Yeah,'' says an amused Keith Loach, "thanks, but no thanks....I'd >>> get >>> home from work'' - managing a car-rental outlet - "drop down on the >>> couch and watch TV.... >>> >>> "When Keith gets back in fighting shape, I think it's going to be a >>> significant year for him,'' predicts national team coach and Turin >>> gold-medallist Duff Gibson. >>> >>> (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3b234e4d-0810-4ee1-9700-494de673f869 >>> ) >>> ----- >>> >>> Urban Dictionary has two entries, one of which seems to be just a >>> typo: >>> >>> ----- >>> 1. An extremely lazy coach; posts when practice/game is an hour >>> before >>> practice/game, so half of the team shows up; >>> * 2. someone who spends most of their time watching TV and doesn't >>> exercise or have any interesting hobbies. Such a person spends most >>> his/her free time sitting or lying on a coach. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coach+potato >>> ) >>> >>> The definition from HS below is for "couch potato" that comes up when >>> Googling for "coach potato," though I don't know why that should >>> happen. >>> >>> >>> On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke >>>> Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> In the latest Newsweek, Sharon Begley writes in her "On Science" >>>> column: >>>> >>>> You measure the blood pressure, heart rate, weight, and other >>>> aspects >>>> of cardiovascular health of thousands of coach potatoes year after >>>> year. >>>> >>>> Googling "coach potato" gets about 39.7k hits. When you refine the >>>> search to eliminate the cartoon series, the bus tour company, >>>> communications technologies, and other false matches, the number >>>> drops >>>> to about 14.6k, many of which clearly mean "couch potato." "Coach >>>> potato' has an Urban Dictionary definition, "coach potato is used to >>>> describe someone who sits on the coach all day and does nothing >>>> (common knowledge)." WikiAnswers has a question on the source of >>>> "coach potato" but no comments have been submitted. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 04:38:01 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? Message-ID: 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of diminished effect." What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not photographic in 1818. (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was very impressive.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 06:17:56 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:17:56 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Nov 2008 to 26 Nov 2008 (#2008-331) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/2008 12:02:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Beyond the Pale: White House Hanukkah invite is actually Christmas card In one well-known West Wing Thanksgiving episode, Pres. Jed Bartlett pardoned a Turkey and granted asylum to a group of Chinese victims of religious persecution. But this week in the real west wing, besides barbecued turkey, two wars, and a financial meltdown, George W. Bush, another president whose series has been canceled, seemed intent on playing to his base one last time by making his legacy the long- awaited conversion of the Jews. At least that's what it seemed like to Jewish leaders who received invitations from the White Houseto this year's annual menorah lighting. On the inside of those Hanukkah invites, George and Laura Bush request "the pleasure of your company at a Hanukkah reception." But the outside of the card features a horse-drawn wagon carrying the White House Christmas tree up to a snow-clad White House, and to drive home the White Christmas message, a sign on the side of the wagon reads, "White House Christmas Tree 2008." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Do you really think George Bush chose the cards himself? I doubt he even saw them. People like him have people. Rosemarie I heard a good definition of humility in the face of compliments: "I believe that God uses others to reflect back to us who we are and how He is using us." **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 06:34:47 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:34:47 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-335) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/1/2008 12:00:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dunno if this helps, but in Central NY State, we often said - and indeed, still say - "down cellar" for going down into the cellar; and "down city" for going south to the city of Syracuse. My husband, who's from the west coast, laughs at me. But to my ear, these phrases sound perfectly normal! Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Dec 1 08:19:14 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 03:19:14 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: <200812010438.mAUBl8QY013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can > particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of > Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of > diminished effect." This is the kind of cite where some indication of the provenance would help to contextualize it. > What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I'd expect this to be hand-painted plates, and a portable camera obscura. > I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" > refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the > image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and > "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these > plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the > camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not > photographic in 1818. If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have been not uncommon during that period. > (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to > Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was > very impressive.) (The one in San Francisco, next to the Beach House, is also pretty cool.) Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 1 09:37:02 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:37:02 -0000 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris Waigl wrote: > If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by > about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have > been not uncommon during that period. Fox Talbot used a portable camera obscura for his early experiments in photography. His device is still on view, I believe, in the museum at Lacock in Wiltshire. (I remember it well, as I used it as a prop while making an audio-visual programme about him for the opening of the museum.) -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Dec 1 10:44:30 2008 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:44:30 +0000 Subject: Preposition deletion Message-ID: Using 'down' and 'up' without 'to' is allowable in British English in certain contexts--whether there's a rule to this I'm not sure. But one goes 'down the pub' . One also goes 'round' places, such as 'going round Mary's house'--whereas in AmE I think I'd have say 'going around to M's house'--but maybe I've just lost all of my intuitions. Here's a bloggy example with up: Tonight, I'm going up London Town to see my lovely Big Fella; (dearwitho.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_archive.html) We have a final-year student who's just embarking on his dissertation project on the loss of 'to' after 'go' in some contexts, e.g. "I'm going the pub". My initial impression was that the contexts in which it happens tend to be ones in which the destination is more than a physical destination--it's an activity. But we'll see what turns up when he's researched it more properly. Lynne --On 30 November 2008 15:19 -0500 Wilson Gray wrote: > "Let's go _down the basement_ is the standard usage here in the Boston > area. > > In Saint Louis, another place where houses usually have basements, we > said"... _down in the basement_." I've also heard "... _down cellar." > > The usual OT anecdote. > > I once lived in Arlington Hills, MA, an area in which the surface is > underlaid (or underlain?) by granite. Whoever built the house that I > lived in must have felt that the lot was good enough for government > work as it was, since, if you went down the basement, you found a > granite knoll (or knob?), ca. six feet high and twenty feet in > diameter, obviously the apex of one of the original hills, right in > the middle of what was otherwise an entirely ordinary basement. The > house had simply been built around and over the knoll? / knob?. Weird! > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Grant Barrett > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> >> Subject: Preposition deletion >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------- >> >> The sentences below come from a listener to the radio show, who says >> she remembers them from her family in the 1950s. >> >> "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park >> >> "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement >> >> I believe I've read something about this sort of preposition deletion >> in the last few years, but I can't get enough purchase on the key >> elements of it to get fruitful results online or in my library. >> >> Any ideas as to whether this is a common dialect feature and if it's >> been discussed elsewhere? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> 113 Park Place, No. 3 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 11:34:03 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011044.mB16G2fK013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Lynne Murphy > Subject: Re: Preposition deletion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using 'down' and 'up' without 'to' is allowable in British English in > certain contexts--whether there's a rule to this I'm not sure. But one > goes 'down the pub' . One also goes 'round' places, such as 'going round > Mary's house'--whereas in AmE I think I'd have say 'going around to M's > house'--but maybe I've just lost all of my intuitions. > > Here's a bloggy example with up: > Tonight, I'm going up London Town to see my lovely Big Fella; > (dearwitho.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_archive.html) > > We have a final-year student who's just embarking on his dissertation > project on the loss of 'to' after 'go' in some contexts, e.g. "I'm going > the pub". My initial impression was that the contexts in which it happens > tend to be ones in which the destination is more than a physical > destination--it's an activity. But we'll see what turns up when he's > researched it more properly. > > Lynne > I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my pub"? -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 12:43:37 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:43:37 +0800 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011237.mB1BlJEv002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Waigl > Subject: Re: Preposition deletion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800, Randy Alexander > wrote: > >> I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. >> >> If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my >> pub"? > > Well, you still need "down". I find a few hits for "go(ing) down my pub", > including from some song lyrics. I'd consider it colloquial. > > Cheers, > > Chris > I chose those words to avoid neighboring alveolar consonants, "go __ my pub", where __ = a lack of "to". My idea is that "to" might disappear with an alveolar consonant on either side, but not between two non-alveolar sounds. -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Dec 1 12:37:53 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:37:53 -0500 Subject: Preposition deletion In-Reply-To: <200812011134.mB16G2l4013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:34:03 +0800, Randy Alexander wrote: > I wonder if it's only after (or perhaps also before) alveolar consonants. > > If you can say "I'm going the pub" can you also say "She wants to go my > pub"? Well, you still need "down". I find a few hits for "go(ing) down my pub", including from some song lyrics. I'd consider it colloquial. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 14:06:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 06:06:51 -0800 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812010135.mAUBl8EA013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Marc Velasco > Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV > shows or > characters, used as verbs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > if anyone's still tracking this... > tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ > someone, > ie, to interrogate/torture for information. > > >>> >>> A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >>> were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take >>> back >>> to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >>> >>> "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen >>> Mary." ... >>> >>> ... But are there other television shows or television characters >>> which >>> have become verbs? >>> >>> --- who is the source of the embedded "A sentence one of my fellow bartenders ..." material that's quoted here? i can't find it in the archives. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 15:22:32 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:22:32 -0500 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Chris and Michael Quinion. I had not imagined portable camera obscura (I won't attempt a plural!), since the only two I remember were installed in their own private tower rooms. (And I now do remember the San Francisco one, which I visited many years ago.) The source is _The diary of William Bentley, D.D., pastor of the East Church, Salem, Massachusetts_. And yes, I knew that 1818 was a decade or so too early for a photographic camera. Joel At 12/1/2008 03:19 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" >wrote: > > > 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can > > particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of > > Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of > > diminished effect." > >This is the kind of cite where some indication of the provenance would help >to contextualize it. > > > What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? > >I'd expect this to be hand-painted plates, and a portable camera obscura. > > > I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" > > refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the > > image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and > > "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these > > plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the > > camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not > > photographic in 1818. > >If 1818 is correct, this pre-dates the earliest examples of photography by >about a decade. However, camerae obscurae as painting aids appear to have >been not uncommon during that period. > > > (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to > > Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was > > very impressive.) > >(The one in San Francisco, next to the Beach House, is also pretty cool.) > >Chris Waigl > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Mon Dec 1 17:22:26 2008 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:22:26 -0600 Subject: Pass=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= Comitatus Act Message-ID: Just seen on the Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com): PENTAGON TO DEPLOY 20,000 TROOPS INSIDE USA... Domestic Security... Pass? Comitatus Act... -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com Mirror Journal http://dsgood.insanejournal.com Mirror 2 http://dsgood.wordpress.com Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 17:28:03 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:28:03 -0500 Subject: Pass=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= Comitatus Act In-Reply-To: <49341D52.8060009@iphouse.com> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 12:22 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: >Just seen on the Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com): > >PENTAGON TO DEPLOY 20,000 TROOPS INSIDE USA... >Domestic Security... >Pass? Comitatus Act... We can only hope it will be, with the new administration. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 1 17:28:34 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:28:34 -0600 Subject: "don" = to wear; (hence) to bear on the exterior. (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200811272232.mARBm8Xx014641@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Back in the day, there was a comic-book character named > "Merton McSnurtle the Turtle." He had the ability to remove > his shell at will. > When he removed his shell, he became the super-hero, "Mr. > Terrific Whatzit," a swift-moving character that was > essentially a parody of The Flash. As superheroes go, this pales in comparison to "Ear Fall Off Floyd", who could make his ears fall off at will. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 17:36:44 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:36:44 -0800 Subject: "long from" for "far from" In-Reply-To: <200811302101.mAUBl80c013218@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "long from" for "far from" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 2:39 PM -0600 11/30/08, Gerald Cohen wrote: >> "long from" seems to be a shortening of "a long way from" (as in >> "it's a >> long way from being over"). And this shortening may have originally >> occurred under the influence of blending: >> "it's far from over" + "it's a long way from being over.' >> >> G. Cohen > > Perhaps "long way to go" is a factor as well, given that it fits the > "long from" examples that work and not the ones that Arnold indicates > are unattested. i was about to suggest "a long way from" as a contributor to this usage (and perhaps "a long way to go" as well), and i think there's something right about that idea, but there's still something to explain: these "long way" expressions are usable for both spatial and (sometimes) temporal extent (and for metaphorical uses based on the spatial sense), but as Alison Murie has noted, "long from" is specifically temporal. this shows up very clearly in questions of the form "how long from here to X"; if you google on this expression, almost all the hits are about distance in time rather than space, as here: How long from here to there? Find out the time it takes to travel by Metro Rail from any metro stop to another. www.nationalrealty.biz/map/metro.htm when spatial distance is clearly intended, "long from" is odd indeed: ?? Chicago is long from San Francisco. [ok with "far"] ?? How long is your house from your office? [ok with "far"]' (cf.: How long is this project from being finished? 'How much time until this project is finished?') so it seems that "long from" is not a simple variant of "far from", but is 'far from' in time -- another case of the "Y is X plus something" phenomenon i've been looking at for some time. another difference: although "long from" is compatible with the interrogative degree modifier "how", other degree modifiers don't seem to work: "very far from over" is fine, but "very long from over" gets no relevant hits. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:36:22 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200811292224.mATC2raf007269@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Uhh... no, and I apologize for the mistake. I meant only Fri. the 13th as unlucky. Mark Mandel On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > Mark, are you saying that you yourself remember that in the > 1950s it was already claimed that Friday the 13th was supposed to be > unlucky because of the Knights Templar incident? That's much earlier > than I would have guessed. > > > John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:44:26 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: "devil his do"! In-Reply-To: <200812010328.mAUBl8je013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > In an article in /Perspective,/ about the last-minute regulations > contemplated by the outgoing administration, Kevin Berends wrote: > "This is where we need > to give the devil his do. " > (Just faintly reminiscent of Papa Bush being coy.) > AM Sounds painful for the barber! "I bet Old Nick just looked at her, and scratched his scorching hair" (http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/SpottedGoat.html) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 17:55:55 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:55:55 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812010412.mAUBl8OE013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > question? I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and not necessarily true. "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your permission." Don't take it literally. I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our childhood, and we'd better get with it. Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:06:40 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:06:40 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812011406.mB1BlJOl002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who is a part-time professional bartender. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Marc Velasco >> Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV >> shows or >> characters, used as verbs >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> if anyone's still tracking this... >> tonight on the simpsons, someone (moe?) told homer to _jack bauer_ >> someone, >> ie, to interrogate/torture for information. >> >> >>>> >>>> A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we >>>> were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take >>>> back >>>> to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: >>>> >>>> "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen >>>> Mary." ... >>>> >>>> ... But are there other television shows or television characters >>>> which >>>> have become verbs? >>>> >>>> --- > > who is the source of the embedded "A sentence one of my fellow > bartenders ..." material that's quoted here? i can't find it in the > archives. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:03:56 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:03:56 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 2008 to 30 Nov 2008 (#2008-335) In-Reply-To: <200812010634.mB16G2Ye013214@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think it's fairly common in the British Isles. In the song "Archetype Cafe", by the English singer-songwriter Talis Kimberly, the refrain is "And the Ladies' Historic Society meets down Archetype Cafe at midnight", and I've heard/read it in other eastpondian sources. Googling "down the corner" gives mostly hits for an art film from Ireland (and "paint down the corner", etc.) Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Your Name wrote: > In a message dated 12/1/2008 12:00:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > "let's go across the park" = let's go across the street to the park > > "let's go down the basement" = let's go down the stairs to the basement > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dunno if this helps, but in Central NY State, we often said - and indeed, > still say - "down cellar" for going down into the cellar; and "down city" for > going south to the city of Syracuse. > > > > > My husband, who's from the west coast, laughs at me. But to my ear, these > phrases sound perfectly normal! > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Dec 1 18:33:40 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:33:40 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" Message-ID: Another formula occurs when a diner is ordering from the menu at a restaurant: "May I have . . . ?" Or (as both my son and his wife will commence an order) "Can I get . . .?" Also not to be taken literally, of course. (An ORDER is not a request!) --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 18:00:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:00:17 -0800 Subject: "little/few but" (was: "long from" for "far from") In-Reply-To: <200811300251.mATC2rPJ019256@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:51 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > "few but" sounds strange, but couldn't "little but" be taken as a > down-toned universal? i have trouble with "few but/except" but find "little but/except" fine in at least some cases: They did little but/except dither. not that i know what to make of this. for what it's worth, exceptive "other than" works fine for me in places where "but" and "except" do not: Few other than his fellow poets understand his work. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 18:56:43 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:56:43 -0600 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200812011739.mB1BqSRw006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For some cultures, it is Tuesday the 13th! Or it was when I was in Paraguay at the end of the 70s--and I never knew why. And then there is Churchy (Cherchez Lafemme) of Pogo fame for whom the 13th day was unlucky, no matter what day it fell on (this month, Friday the 13th will fall on a Saturday!). Barbara Barbara Need On 12/1/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Friday the 13th and the Templars > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Uhh... no, and I apologize for the mistake. I meant only Fri. the 13th > as unlucky. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > > > Mark, are you saying that you yourself remember that in the > > 1950s it was already claimed that Friday the 13th was supposed to be > > unlucky because of the Knights Templar incident? That's much earlier > > than I would have guessed. > > > > > > John Baker > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Dec 1 19:04:03 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:04:03 -0800 Subject: Friday the 13th and the Templars In-Reply-To: <200812011856.mB1BqSag006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I never read it myself, but I thought *Friday* the thirteenth was lucky for him...BB On Dec 1, 2008, at 10:56 AM, Barbara Need wrote: > And then there is Churchy (Cherchez Lafemme) of Pogo fame for whom > the 13th > day was unlucky, no matter what day it fell on (this month, Friday > the 13th > will fall on a Saturday!). > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Mon Dec 1 19:42:42 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:42:42 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812011756.mB1BpTsQ003181@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > permission." Don't take it literally. Exactly. It's more likely to mean "is this a good time/are you the right person" to ask. > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > childhood, and we'd better get with it. I think Miss Manners would approve. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 19:59:07 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:59:07 -0500 Subject: Webster=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= New World College Dictionary announces its word-of-the-year candidates In-Reply-To: <200811211546.mALBklU2025684@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The least odd choice, "overshare", has won. http://newworldword.com/ On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > > Webster's New World College Dictionary has announced its top five > words of the year candidates. Odd choices from WNW, as usual. > > http://tinyurl.com/69zku8 > > leisure sickness: a purported syndrome, not universally recognized by > psychologists, by which some people (typically characterized as > workaholics) are more likely to report feeling ill during weekends and > vacations than when working. > > overshare: to divulge excessive personal information, as in a blog or > broadcast interview, prompting reactions ranging from alarmed > discomfort to approval > > cyberchondriac: a hypochondriac who imagines that he or she has a > particular disease based on medical information gleaned from the > Internet > > selective ignorance: the practice of selectively ignoring distracting, > irrelevant, or otherwise unnecessary information received, such as e- > mails, news reports, etc. > > youthanasia: "?The controversial practice of performing a battery of > age-defying medical procedures to end lifeless skin and wrinkles; > advocated by some as a last-resort measure to put the chronically > youth-obsessed out of their misery?Think of it as mercy lifting." ? > Armand Limnander, New York Times > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 1 20:22:05 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:22:05 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" Message-ID: I sometimes need to do telemarketing -- cold-calling prospects in an attempt to get an appointment. I've done this for various companies. One had a trainer who strongly encouraged using a 'how are you' type question when a prospect first got on the phone. I disagreed with that concept, in part because the caller would know that I know they know I'm not truly concerned with how they are; and anyway, seconds spent on such pointless exchanges of not-even-pleasant comments would be time needlessly taken from the prospect's busy day, and _that_ would be good for the prospect or for me. Unless I'm mistaken, the French do conversation-initiation so much nicer in most instances, with a simple 'bon jour'. dh 12/1/2008 12:55:55 PM Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >When a co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >not necessarily true. >Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 1 20:28:04 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:28:04 -0500 Subject: Broken News Message-ID: Subject: News Alert: It's Official: U.S. Economy in Recession Breaking News Alert The New York Times Monday, December 1, 2008 -- 12:32 PM ET ----- It's Official: U.S. Economy in Recession The National Bureau of Economic Research, a panel of academic economists charged with the official designation of business cycles, said that the United States economy has been in recession since December 2007, when economic activity peaked. -- All the news that's fit to print . . . eventually. dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 1 20:51:31 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:51:31 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <001B48500C010F16051A001002@Seamus> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 03:22 PM, Doug Harris wrote: >Unless I'm mistaken, the French do conversation-initiation so much >nicer in most instances, with a simple 'bon jour' We could to that too -- a greeting of "Good day." Not to be confused with the farewell "Have a nice day." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:07:39 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:07:39 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812011756.mB1BqST8006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire to annoy me!" But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they will: A) May I ask you a question? B) No. A) All right. Fuck you, then. AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask this question in this form in any human language without eliminating the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no question? And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >> question? > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > not necessarily true. > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > permission." Don't take it literally. > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:11:45 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:11:45 EST Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" Message-ID: I just heard a radio DJ say, "Dec. 1 ushers in for me two things: the consumption of eggnog, and the listening-to of Christmas music." I'm trying to figure out if that last phrase is grammatically correct? And if so, am I correct in hyphenating "listening-to" in this context? Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:20:13 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:20:13 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012107.mB1HHhxx002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. > Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no > question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical > possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right > to answer "No"? Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" > Asking permission to perform this action entails > performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to > wants to grant permission. Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? > I find that mind-bending! If someone were to > ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question > you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, > "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your > ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire > to annoy me!" > > But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) > this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but > more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real > world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they > will: > > A) May I ask you a question? > > B) No. > > A) All right. Fuck you, then. > > AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so > trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" > Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take > some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask > this question in this form in any human language without eliminating > the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no > question? > > And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" > with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I > guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending > toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. Mark > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > >> question? > > > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > > not necessarily true. > > > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > > permission." Don't take it literally. > > > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > > > Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:25:37 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:25:37 -0500 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812011006p49567dc2y39118a9449bf60e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who > is a part-time professional bartender. Here's the complete post from my files: =========================================== date Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM subject Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs mailed-by gmail.com ----------- >From a friend's LiveJournal (http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html), used by permission: >>>>> Oh how cool English is as a language A sentence one of my fellow bartenders uttered last night while we were breaking down the bars, and packing up all the stuff to take back to the MIT Faculty club where it goes: "I think I can MacGyver the rest of the liquor onto the Queen Mary." A "Queen Mary", by the way, is a big wire-rack rolling cart. Imagine a set of aluminum-tube-and wire-rack shelves, and put wheels on it. That's all it is, and you stack everything on it, and then wrap it all in pallet wrap, which is just somewhat-thicker clingfilm/Saran wrap, which keeps everything from falling off. But are there other television shows or television characters which have become verbs? ----- http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html?thread=4492747#t4492747 mattblum comments: Did you know that "to MacGyver" was used on the first episode of Stargate SG-1 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118480/), prompting Richard Dean Anderson (or his character--hard to say which) to roll his eyes in exasperation? ----- http://xiphias.livejournal.com/474315.html?thread=4493003#t4493003 janetmiles comments: Spock, as in "to Spock an eyebrow". <<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 1 21:32:48 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:32:48 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812012111.mB1HHh13002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, such strings are easily generated and easily understood. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Your Name wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I just heard a radio DJ say, "Dec. 1 ushers in for me two things: the > consumption of eggnog, and the listening-to of Christmas music." I'm trying to > figure out if that last phrase is grammatically correct? And if so, am I > correct in hyphenating "listening-to" in this context? > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW > AOL.com. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Mon Dec 1 22:59:25 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:59:25 -0800 Subject: A "camera" in 1818? Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:38:01 Zulu minus 0500 "Joel S. Berson" wrote: 1818 Jan 8. "His camera exhibited as near life as such a thing can particularly some fine paintings & colourings of refuse. His views of Rome were next, the other plates were of less perfect character & of diminished effect." What kind of camera is meant here, and what are the "plates"? I think of a camera obscura, but then I don't know what "plates" refers to. A camera obscura would have a glass plate on which the image was projected, but that wouldn't be the "views of Rome" and "the other plates". Or, if this camera were indoors, perhaps these plates were placed before the lens so they would be projected on the camera obscura's viewing plate? And I assume these plates were not photographic in 1818. (The only camera obscura I can recall seeing was in "Stairway to Heaven" (AKA "A Matter of Life and Death"), released 1946, and it was very impressive.) Joel ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My response: I see the quotation as referring to three different parts of the exhibit: 1. camera 2. view of Rome 3. other plates With this interpretation "plates" has no connection to "camera". Apparently the artist used a camera obscura for tracing, and was meticulous (or honest?) enought to so state. Then "colourings" refers to camera obscura tracings that the artist subsequently colored. What bothers me is the word "refuse". OT: "May I ask you a question?" is an example of a convention in English in which a statement or request is made politely by being indirect. Somebody has probably come up with a name for this convention. A similar convention was covered in ADS-L a few months ago when someone tried to interpret "I wish to thank..." literally, not realizing that "I wish to thank" is a conventional phrase implying modesty and respect on the part of the speaker. OT: if you're puzzled about my signoffs, here's a hint: don't think engineering but rather Confederate currency. James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ RTSDP TVJMS QHZNY YZUWT BASDV AYIFF WOMEG OGOOG WAEHJ CJUYT MOWEN SPPMX PHZLG YXZNG AAESK YYQUK YDG ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Mon Dec 1 23:02:41 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:02:41 -0800 Subject: "coach potato" another possible eggcorn? Message-ID: Not really relevant, but back in the late 1970's I heard the following story, about a professor in the Soviet Union who taught English stylistics. She was complaining that Soviet restrictions kept her from reading and hearing real English, with the result "I thought the English word for davenport was pronounced like the trainer of a baseball team." James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ RAVPA SPPMZ GS ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 1 23:17:44 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:17:44 -0800 Subject: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or characters, used as verbs In-Reply-To: <200812012125.mB1HHh3r002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV > shows or > characters, used as verbs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> I posted that quote originally, from the LiveJournal of a friend who >> is a part-time professional bartender. > > > > Here's the complete post from my files: > > =========================================== > > date Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM > subject Queen Mary = wire-rack rolling cart; names of TV shows or > characters, used as verbs > mailed-by gmail.com wow. no wonder i didn't recall it, if it was from june. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 1 23:39:56 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:39:56 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012120.mB1Bu5dK003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:59 PM, James A. Landau wrote (in another thread): > > OT: "May I ask you a question?" is an example of a convention in English in > which a statement or request is made politely by being indirect. Somebody > has probably come up with a name for this convention. A similar convention > was covered in ADS-L a few months ago when someone tried to interpret "I wish > to thank..." literally, not realizing that "I wish to thank" is a conventional > phrase implying modesty and respect on the part of the speaker. There's extensive sociolinguistic literature on indirect requests. One relevant paper is: Ervin-Tripp, Susan. 1976. Is Sybil there? The structure of some American English directives. Language in Society 5: 25-66. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 01:35:06 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:35:06 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812011320i556ebd8eg5b1a5bc9050bda52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no > > question? > > Along the same lines, consider the possible answers to "Are you awake?" >Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- >meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't >feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). > >But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not >meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can >you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the >door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing >so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. Then there's the issue of responding "Do you mind if I...?" to which a polite "Sure" will (hopefully) be interpreted as "Go right ahead" rather than as a "Yes, I sure do mind". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 2 02:36:53 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:36:53 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812011307u38e21c71k117e19495e9b0fe6@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/1/2008 04:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >to answer "No"? Are you alive? Are you awake? Joel >Asking permission to perform this action entails >performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >to annoy me!" > >But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >will: > >A) May I ask you a question? > >B) No. > >A) All right. Fuck you, then. > >AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >question? > >And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) > >-Wilson > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > > > >On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar > >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no > >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether > >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to > >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than > >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a > >> question? > > > > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because > > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a > > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you > > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a > > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning > > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how > > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" > > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and > > not necessarily true. > > > > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like > > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your > > permission." Don't take it literally. > > > > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a > > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what > > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a > > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our > > childhood, and we'd better get with it. > > > > Mark Mandel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 2 04:51:47 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:51:47 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812012120.mB1Bu5dM003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mark, may I ask you a question? Can you not see that, when I ask you for permission to ask you a question, whether you would choose to allow me to ask you a question or whether you would choose not to allow me to ask you a question is of no consequence? I have already asked you a question by virtue of the very speech act of asking you for permission to ask you ask you a question. It's already too late. The war is over before you've even had a chance to "LOCK! One round, LOAD!" Game, set, and match to the questioner. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >> Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >> question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >> possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >> to answer "No"? > > Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" > >> Asking permission to perform this action entails >> performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >> wants to grant permission. > > Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? > >> I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >> ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >> you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >> "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >> ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >> to annoy me!" >> >> But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >> this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >> more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >> world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >> will: >> >> A) May I ask you a question? >> >> B) No. >> >> A) All right. Fuck you, then. >> >> AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >> question? >> >> And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >> with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >> guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >> toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) > > Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- > meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't > feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). > > But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not > meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can > you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at the > door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing > so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. > > Mark > >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Mark Mandel >> > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >> >> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >> >> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >> >> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >> >> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >> >> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >> >> question? >> > >> > I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >> > unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >> > formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you >> > are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a >> > co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >> > as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >> > you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >> > or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >> > not necessarily true. >> > >> > "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like >> > to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your >> > permission." Don't take it literally. >> > >> > I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a >> > road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what >> > conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a >> > literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >> > childhood, and we'd better get with it. >> > >> > Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 2 05:24:02 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:24:02 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020451.mB24bcE1002956@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The other possibility, and the one that seems most reasonable in the case of asking a librarian, is that the speaker is not sure if the librarian's duties at the moment allow the answering of something that requires thought. That is, Patron. Can I ask you a question? Librarian. Yes. (Requires no thought.) Patron. Do you know where I can find information on simian habitats? Librarian. Let me move over to my computer and see if I can help you. (Requires a great deal of effort.) BB On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mark, may I ask you a question? > > Can you not see that, when I ask you for permission to ask you a > question, whether you would choose to allow me to ask you a question > or whether you would choose not to allow me to ask you a question is > of no consequence? I have already asked you a question by virtue of > the very speech act of asking you for permission to ask you ask you a > question. It's already too late. The war is over before you've even > had a chance to "LOCK! One round, LOAD!" Game, set, and match to the > questioner. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >>> Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >>> question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the >>> theoretical >>> possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given >>> right >>> to answer "No"? >> >> Outside a rest room: "Is there anyone in there?" >> >>> Asking permission to perform this action entails >>> performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >>> wants to grant permission. >> >> Would you prefer "May I ask you a substantive question?"? >> >>> I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >>> ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >>> you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >>> "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >>> ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your >>> desire >>> to annoy me!" >>> >>> But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of >>> (only?) >>> this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger >>> but >>> more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the >>> real >>> world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as >>> they >>> will: >>> >>> A) May I ask you a question? >>> >>> B) No. >>> >>> A) All right. Fuck you, then. >>> >>> AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >>> trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >>> some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >>> this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >>> the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >>> question? >>> >>> And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >>> with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! >>> Well, I >>> guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >>> toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) >> >> Of course not. I sometimes *do* reply politely "Not at all!" -- >> meaning, and taken to mean, "It's no trouble at all (and so I don't >> feel that you've done anything that requires any kind of apology). >> >> But my point was that we shouldn't take literally that which is not >> meant literally. How do you feel about indirect speech acts like "Can >> you pass the butter?" or (from one's spouse) "I think someone's at >> the >> door"? I don't recommend replying, respectively, "Yes" (and not doing >> so), or especially "Yes, I think you're right" and not moving. >> >> Mark >> >>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray >>>> wrote: >>>>> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you >>>>> familiar >>>>> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >>>>> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know >>>>> whether >>>>> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >>>>> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other >>>>> than >>>>> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >>>>> question? >>>> >>>> I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >>>> unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >>>> formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice >>>> that you >>>> are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. >>>> When a >>>> co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the >>>> morning >>>> as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >>>> you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be >>>> worse" >>>> or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, >>>> and >>>> not necessarily true. >>>> >>>> "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd >>>> like >>>> to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking >>>> your >>>> permission." Don't take it literally. >>>> >>>> I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that >>>> made a >>>> road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is >>>> what >>>> conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just >>>> being a >>>> literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >>>> childhood, and we'd better get with it. >>>> >>>> Mark Mandel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Dec 2 05:49:20 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:49:20 -0500 Subject: Japanese WOTY In-Reply-To: <200812010417.mAUBl8lY013215@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the current news: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20081201-00000016-oric-ent Top fashionable Japanese words for 2008 (winner and runner-up) (if I'm reading this right): "arafou" and "guu" (my transliteration preferences). "Arafou" means "40-ish". It is an abbreviation of "araundo foutii" = "around forty". The actress Amami Yuuki [left] is indeed 40-ish, and she starred in the TV series "Around 40" recently. http://www.tbs.co.jp/around40/ [I guess with the aging of the population, you could say arafou is 'the new arasaa' (araundo-saatii = around-30)?] "Guu" means (among other things) "good". Apparently the (40-ish) comedienne Edo Harumi [right, making the thumbs-up for "good", I guess] makes jokes/puns with "guu" (versus the word-ending "-ingu" [= English "-ing"], if I'm understanding right). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGiQQ5EmgGo (in the last half, there are "chaaminguu" = "charming", "dansinguu" = "dancing", "anatawaguu" = "you are good", etc., to my naive ear). Any savant, please correct my misconceptions if necessary. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From katharinethegrate at COMCAST.NET Tue Dec 2 06:44:14 2008 From: katharinethegrate at COMCAST.NET (Katharine The Grate) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:44:14 -0800 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020534.mB1M8GQ2003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. Katharine in N. California $?$$?$$?$$?$$?$$ "(testing) just can?t dominate the curriculum to an extent where we are pushing aside those things that will actually allow children to improve and accurately assess the quality of the teaching that is taking place in the classroom.? B.Obama ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:11:21 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:11:21 -0500 Subject: Further Major Antedating of "Linguistic" Message-ID: linguistic (OED 1856) 1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE science of the general comparison of languages, now developing itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. ... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. linguistic science (OED 1922) 1825 [see above] Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:11:29 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:11:29 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" Message-ID: photographer (OED3 1846) 1844 _John Bull_ 23 Mar. (19th Century UK Periodicals) PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. ... Topham and Prichard, Leeds, photographers. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:07:06 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Nathan) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:07:06 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <30895195.55911228216015944.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: Wilson wrote: All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, "Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire to annoy me!" Many years ago I heard the late Harvey Sacks talk about why small kids say 'Mommy, you know what?' Superficially this makes no sense, and why would a 4-year-old ask such a question anyway. In the ponderous but really clever way that Conversational Analysts deconstruct conversational turn-taking he pointed out that generally kids don't get to 'run' conversations, or in general have the right to 'the floor'. However, asking a question, by virtue of the structure of what Schegloff, Sacks and Jefferson called 'adjacency pairs' gave the child the automatic right to talk. Anybody can ask a question, but not just any low status person can start talking without invitation. So asking an open-ended question gives you the floor and begins a conversation, while just beginning with the actual question would seem rude and presumptive, meaning something along the lines of 'You're my servant and you must tell me this'. FWIW. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 11:22:00 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:22:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" Message-ID: conservatism (OED 1835) 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 2 12:09:28 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:09:28 -0500 Subject: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C914@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Isn't the 1856 date for the adjective? The noun (The science of languages; philology. a. sing) dates from 1837. Antedating for linguistic (adj). OED 1856-. Weekly Eagle, published as The Semi-Weekly Eagle; Date: 04-02-1849; Volume: II; Issue: 68; Page: [2]; Location: Brattleboro, Vermont [EAN]. This linguistic entertainment soon grew irksome to the impatient Spaniard, and the conference speedily terminated. Joel At 12/2/2008 06:11 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE >science of the general comparison of languages, now developing >itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, >made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials >have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the >diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a >Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself >more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. >... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition >to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. > > >linguistic science (OED 1922) > >1825 [see above] > > >Fred Shapiro > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 14:17:55 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:17:55 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <2314495.55931228216026924.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 6:07 AM -0500 12/2/08, Geoffrey Nathan wrote: >Wilson wrote: > >All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >to answer "No"? Asking permission to perform this action entails >performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >to annoy me!" > >Many years ago I heard the late Harvey Sacks talk about why small >kids say 'Mommy, you know what?' Superficially this makes no sense, >and why would a 4-year-old ask such a question anyway. In the >ponderous but really clever way that Conversational Analysts >deconstruct conversational turn-taking he pointed out that generally >kids don't get to 'run' conversations, or in general have the right >to 'the floor'. However, asking a question, by virtue of the >structure of what Schegloff, Sacks and Jefferson called 'adjacency >pairs' gave the child the automatic right to talk. Anybody can ask a >question, but not just any low status person can start talking >without invitation. So asking an open-ended question gives you the >floor and begins a conversation, while just beginning with the >actual question would seem rude and presumptive, meaning something >along the lines of 'You're my servant and you must tell me this'. >FWIW. > All true & to the point, and when we grow up, we can change it to "Guess what". There's a thread in the sociolinguistics of gender (starting with Pamela Fishman's work in the early 1980s) that looks at the greater likelihood that female rather than male partners in couples will use questions and particularly floor-obtaining questions of exactly this type to make sure they're listened to, and the comparison with the data from children is explicitly made. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 14:23:13 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:23:13 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C916@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:22:00AM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > conservatism (OED 1835) > > 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. > 1832 _Manchester Times & Gaz._ 8 Sept., That leaven of resistance to beneficial change which at different periods has been denominated jacobitism, toryism, and conservatism. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Dec 2 15:16:27 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:16:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Conservatism" In-Reply-To: <20081202142313.GF15773@panix.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 06:22:00AM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> conservatism (OED 1835) >> >> 1833 _The Satirist_ 17 Feb. (19th Century UK Periodicals) SUMMARY >> OF CONSERVATIVE PRINCIPLES. ... To get all we can, and keep all we >> get, at the expense of the rest of the community. ... As a >> principke, it may be termed the life and soul of conservatism. >> > > 1832 _Manchester Times & Gaz._ 8 Sept., That leaven of > resistance to beneficial change which at different periods has > been denominated jacobitism, toryism, and conservatism. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED A discourse delivered in the audience of His Excellency Caleb Strong, esq., governor, His Honor William Phillips, esq., lieutentant governor, the honorable Council, and the two branches of the commonwealth of Massachusetts. On the anniversary election, May 31, 1815. James Flint 1815 English Book Book 31 p. 24 cm. Boston, Printed by Russell, Cutler and Co. for Benjamin Russell, Printer to the State page 16 By conservatism, I understand protection from corruption, diminution, injury, and needless exposure to danger ; the system, whether in morals or politics, or any thing else, which will not hazard present certain and great good for future and very uncertain good, which may, by possibility, be greater; in a word... etc.: http://books.google.com/books?id=zH0XAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA16&dq=conservatism+date:1800-1815&lr=&as_brr=1 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 2 15:25:14 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:25:14 -0500 Subject: Webster=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= New World College Dictionary announces its word-of-the-year candidates In-Reply-To: <200812012009.mB1BqSko006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > The least odd choice, "overshare", has won. > > http://newworldword.com/ I talk about "overshare"/"oversharing" in my latest Word Routes column: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1622/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 2 16:48:22 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:48:22 -0500 Subject: "call someone out of their name" In-Reply-To: <916674.55274.qm@web53901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:57:18AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > If it's in the OED or the Archives, I couldn't find it. It's in OED s.v. _call_ v. sense 17.e., though many of Doug's cites are antedatings, and the OED definition doesn't convey the 'insult' nuance, which is clearly present even in the OED quotations. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 2 16:49:49 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:49:49 -0600 Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812021115.mB220FHk006761@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE [untitled classified ad] _The New York Herald_ Monday, March 06, 1843; p 3 Col 4. "Caution -- The vast superiority of the Patent Colored Photographs, having thrown the old kind entirely into the shade, several of the Photographers in New York are attempting to impose upon the public by advertising their productions as "patent," whereas the only patent ever granted by the United States for an improvement in Daguerrotype Portraits, is "Plumbe's," -- dated October 22, 1842 -- and the only place in New York where the patent one can be obtained, is the above establishment." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Further Antedating of "Photographer" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > photographer (OED3 1846) > > 1844 _John Bull_ 23 Mar. (19th Century UK Periodicals) > PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. ... Topham and Prichard, Leeds, photographers. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School > ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 2 21:22:58 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:22:58 -0500 Subject: aborigine / aubergine Message-ID: (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=870) >And the relationship between its spelling and its pronunciation is exceptional, in that it has final E representing /i/ (rather than being "silent"), a property it shares with a small number of other words, among them epitome, catastrophe, hyperbole, apocope, synecdoche, calliope. And what may be the most widely familiar one: apostrophe. Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 2 22:54:24 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:54:24 -0600 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812022123.mB2KBJZg018810@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not list "bearded clam" "John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 p. 2 col 5 "Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 2 23:50:58 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 18:50:58 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cocaine" Message-ID: cocaine (OED 1874) 1861 _Madras Journal of Literarature and Science_ 1 Dec. 271 (19th Century UK Periodicals) A chemical analysis gives an alkaloid, "Cocaine,"" which bears a strong resemblance to Aconite, the active principle of Bella donna, and like it, has the property of dilating the pupil of the eye. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:22:08 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:22:08 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020644.mB25U0Es003181@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! THANK GOD!!! FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katharine The Grate > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" > > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. > > Katharine in N. California > > > > > $??$$??$$? $$? $$??$$ > "(testing) just can??t dominate the curriculum to an extent where we > are pushing aside those things that will actually allow children to > improve and accurately assess the quality of the teaching that is > taking place in the classroom.?? > B.Obama > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 03:23:24 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 03:23:24 +0000 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812020237.mB1M8GIi003435@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: can you come up with any other yes-no >>question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >>possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >>to answer "No"? How about "Can you say no to this question?" - theoretically Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:36:53 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/1/2008 04:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Content-Disposition: inline >> >>All that's good, Mark. But what you say is rather beside the point. >>Off the top of your head, can you come up with any other yes-no >>question in English which *necessarily* precludes even the theoretical >>possibility that the person spoken to can exercise his God-given right >>to answer "No"? > > Are you alive? > Are you awake? > > Joel > >>Asking permission to perform this action entails >>performing the action, irrespective of whether the person spoken to >>wants to grant permission.I find that mind-bending! If someone were to >>ask the perhaps somewhat more-threatening version, "May I question >>you?", the person spoken to can easily, if he has the 'nads, answer, >>"Damn the consequences! I say 'No!', sir! I deny you your >>ignorant-arsed request! My desire not to be annoyed trumps your desire >>to annoy me!" >> >>But yes, I do understand the point that that characteristic of (only?) >>this yes-no question may fail to fire the imaginations of younger but >>more-learned members of our little community, given that, in the real >>world, people freely give a negative answer to this question, as they >>will: >> >>A) May I ask you a question? >> >>B) No. >> >>A) All right. Fuck you, then. >> >>AFAIK, there's no other such question in English that falls so >>trippingly from the tongue as "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>Someone may be able to construct another such, but IMO, it'll take >>some effort, if it can even be done. Indeed, is it possible to ask >>this question in this form in any human language without eliminating >>the possibility of "No" as the answer, even though it's a yes-no >>question? >> >>And would you really be snarky enough to answer a polite "Excuse me" >>with a snotty "For what?" Mark, you know that that's not you! Well, I >>guess that you could smile and use a pleasant tone of voice tending >>toward gallantry without being offensive. ;-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Mark Twain >> >> >> >>On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>> Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> I'd accept Excuse me; Can / Will / Would you help me? Are you familiar >>>> with this library? or even Do you work here?, etc. (Widener has no >>>> dress code for the lower orders. Hence, there's no way to know whether >>>> a random person encountered in the stack is a staff member able to >>>> share knowledge or merely another lost soul.) *Anything* other than >>>> the mind-bending whatever-it-is-ness of Can / May I ask you a >>>> question? >>> >>> I disagree. You don't answer "Excuse me" with "For what?", because >>> unless the person has just bumped into you, you know that this is a >>> formula to politely request your attention, whether to notice that you >>> are in their way and move, or to preface a question or request. When a >>> co-worker you know only casually asks "How ya doin'?" in the morning >>> as you're both going into the work place, you don't *tell* them how >>> you're doing: you say "Pretty good" or "Not bad" or "Could be worse" >>> or "Same old same old", or something equally brief and summative, and >>> not necessarily true. >>> >>> "Can I ask you a question?" is a similar formula. It means "I'd like >>> to ask you a question, and I'm getting your attention and asking your >>> permission." Don't take it literally. >>> >>> I used to answer, "You just did. Care to ask another?" But that made a >>> road bump in the discourse instead of smoothing the way, which is what >>> conventional formulas are meant for, and I decided I was just being a >>> literalist old fart. It's an idiom that has developed since our >>> childhood, and we'd better get with it. >>> >>> Mark Mandel >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There?s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 03:54:05 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:54:05 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED082@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. Joel P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an 18th-century newspaper. JSB At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >list "bearded clam" > >"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >p. 2 col 5 > >"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." > >http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 3 04:08:04 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:08:04 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" Message-ID: Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact > when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > Joel > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > 18th-century newspaper. > > JSB > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>Caveats: NONE >> >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>list "bearded clam" >> >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>p. 2 col 5 >> >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >> >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>Caveats: NONE >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 04:16:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:16:06 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" In-Reply-To: <49B6A42503684E07967868353CBBBA99@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 12/2/2008 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: >Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the >internet the last 5 years or so? No. But apparently you don't recognize (my) satire when you read it! :-) Joel >Sam Clements >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joel S. Berson" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 >Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > >>This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America >>until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact >>when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from >>1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. >> >>And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, >>1783" -- that's all the masthead says. >> >>Joel >> >>P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, >>selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors >>of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an >>18th-century newspaper. >> >>JSB >> >> >>At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>Caveats: NONE >>> >>>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>>list "bearded clam" >>> >>>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>>p. 2 col 5 >>> >>>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >>> >>>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>Caveats: NONE >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Dec 3 04:19:59 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:19:59 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" Message-ID: You're right. I read the first part, missed the latter. Sorry. Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 23:16 Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > At 12/2/2008 11:08 PM, Sam Clements wrote: >>Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical newspaper on the >>internet the last 5 years or so? > > No. But apparently you don't recognize (my) satire when you read it! :-) > > Joel > > >>Sam Clements >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Joel S. Berson" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 >>Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" >> >> >>>This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America >>>until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note that fact >>>when I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from >>>1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. >>> >>>And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, >>>1783" -- that's all the masthead says. >>> >>>Joel >>> >>>P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, >>>selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that the editors >>>of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an >>>18th-century newspaper. >>> >>>JSB >>> >>> >>>At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >>>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>Caveats: NONE >>>> >>>>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, and does not >>>>list "bearded clam" >>>> >>>>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ October 6, 1783 >>>>p. 2 col 5 >>>> >>>>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good Fortune, reach the >>>>fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he may find him self >>>>secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, only good >>>>Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in those parts of >>>>late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in the month of August, when >>>>the New Found-land Territories open season on the Wild Bearded Clam." >>>> >>>>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob >>>>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>Caveats: NONE >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Dec 3 13:26:52 2008 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:26:52 -0600 Subject: good morning Message-ID: Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind changes down to 30 tonight! If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. Have a good breakfast. -- Save the whales... collect the whole set! Win valuable prizes . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Dec 3 13:50:20 2008 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:50:20 -0600 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <4936891C.8000006@mtnhome.com> Message-ID: sorry! Paul wrote: > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > changes down to 30 tonight! > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > Have a good breakfast. > > -- > Save the whales... > collect the whole set! > Win valuable prizes > > > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > -- Save the whales... collect the whole set! Win valuable prizes . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 3 15:31:15 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:31:15 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some where X is the person for whom one shops. type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only a sample of what's out there. (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in Scotland." ... www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php BIRTHDAY-SHOP Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things she's written down on a list so far, ... ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you what they want, or is just plain hard to please? www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- jamie- lynn/ WEDDING-SHOP That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html ..... (2) CLOTHING-SHOP Great place to clothing shop for your kids. talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. specktra.net/1222930-post82.html SHOE-SHOP How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ FURNITURE-SHOP It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me about this place. www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture COMPUTER-SHOP What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- inspiron-desktops-over-749/ I've never really computer shopped before. https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 TOOL-SHOP How to Tool Shop on a Budget. www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to be selective ... www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 CAR-SHOP Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged by the ... mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html FOOD-SHOP City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going down. community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx GROCERY-SHOP Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and women ... www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm VEGETABLE-SHOP Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice a week. chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml TOY-SHOP They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to toy shop. www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be astounding, particularly to those who haven?t toy-shopped in awhile. lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] I can?t help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping ..... (3) BABY-SHOP but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop online and not ... community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ baby_products I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church was even more gratifying. hopefulhousewife.com/ KID-SHOP I swore I wasn?t going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the 50-percent-off sale at Children?s Place pulled me like the undertow in the ocean. bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ GoToTopic.html FAMILY-SHOP Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 15:56:04 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:56:04 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031326.mB3Bl478029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Does this individual submit anything but spam here? Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > changes down to 30 tonight! > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > Have a good breakfast. > > -- > Save the whales... > collect the whole set! > Win valuable prizes > > > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 3 15:58:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:58:51 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812031532.mB3Bl4Zs029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2008, at 7:31 AM, i wrote: > back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb > "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where > X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some > where X is the person for whom one shops... > > ... FAMILY-SHOP > > Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal > your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... > www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html this is apparently an instance of a fourth type. "to family shop" seems to be 'to shop with your family, to engage in family shopping'. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 3 16:18:02 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:18:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Cocaine" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C91D@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > cocaine (OED 1874) > > 1861 _Madras Journal of Literarature and Science_ 1 Dec. 271 (19th > Century UK Periodicals) A chemical analysis gives an alkaloid, > "Cocaine,"" which bears a strong resemblance to Aconite, the active > principle of Bella donna, and like it, has the property of dilating > the pupil of the eye. The Chemical News [London] July 28, 1860 p.83 col. 2 The leaves of the Erythroxylon Coca are used in Peru as a stimulant like opium, and from them Niemann, the assistant of Wohler, has succeeded in isolating the active principle, an organic base, to which he has given the name of Cocaine.3 http://books.google.com/books?id=XeQEAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA83&dq=cocaine+date:1855-1860&lr=&as_brr=3 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 3 16:22:06 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:22:06 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812030756l26e97a02nefe15e87577045d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Judging from the archives, I'd have to say yes. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 10:56:04AM -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: > Does this individual submit anything but spam here? > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > > > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, > > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind > > changes down to 30 tonight! > > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. > > Have a good breakfast. > > > > -- > > Save the whales... > > collect the whole set! > > Win valuable prizes > > > > > > > > . > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Dec 3 16:25:13 2008 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:25:13 -0600 Subject: call one out of one's name Message-ID: It's also in DARE at "call" verb sense 9. Unfortunately, we neglected to include the cross-ref from the phrase to the sense at the verb. We appreciate all the new citations. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:28:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:28:52 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031557.mB3Bl4LW003823@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IIRC, he has. I think that this is probably only a "hi," so to speak. You may recall that I myself required the help of the entire ADS-L community to keep from misposting these not-ready-for-prime-time personal notes to the list. So, I suggest that we gather more evidence of sheer asssholery, before we take Paul to task. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: good morning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this individual submit anything but spam here? > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: > >> Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, >> It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind >> changes down to 30 tonight! >> If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. >> Have a good breakfast. >> >> -- >> Save the whales... >> collect the whole set! >> Win valuable prizes >> >> >> >> . >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 16:32:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:32:44 -0500 Subject: good morning In-Reply-To: <200812031622.mB3Bl4Tn029695@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clearly, then, I do *not* RC. Therefore, I withdraw from the string. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: good morning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judging from the archives, I'd have to say yes. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 10:56:04AM -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: >> Does this individual submit anything but spam here? >> >> Mark Mandel >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Paul wrote: >> >> > Hell of a day , at 5 AM it was clear, lots of stars now really cloudy, >> > It is getting warmer every hour and will continue that way till wind >> > changes down to 30 tonight! >> > If warm, maybe I'll do windows today. >> > Have a good breakfast. >> > >> > -- >> > Save the whales... >> > collect the whole set! >> > Win valuable prizes >> > >> > >> > >> > . >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 3 17:02:43 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:02:43 -0800 Subject: trunch Message-ID: That's how the word wizards of TV news have been pronouncing "tranche" the last couple of days.??(Rhymes with "punch.") Till I?heard the?normal pronunciation from Stuart Varney (Englishman) (and looked it up), I had no idea WTH they were talking about. ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 18:32:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:32:01 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim Message-ID: Mid-thirty-ish, white male speaker: "Your honor, _we_ have this saying, 'bros before hos.'" What do you mean, _we_, white man?!!! And it ain't no "before," neither! It's "b'fo'"! Yet another sordid example of the appropriation of black culture by The Man! Sigh! What can you do? ;-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Dec 3 20:12:28 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:12:28 -0600 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812030408.mB2KBJkY018810@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Just in case there was any doubt, I'm aware that the "original" article is a parody. I just thought it was funny, and tried to extend the joke by submitting what obviously isn't an antedating . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and > "bearded clam" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joel S. Berson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note > that fact when > > I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > > > Joel > > > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that > the editors > > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > > 18th-century newspaper. > > > > JSB > > > > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >>Caveats: NONE > >> > >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, > and does not > >>list "bearded clam" > >> > >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ > October 6, 1783 > >>p. 2 col 5 > >> > >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good > Fortune, reach > >>the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he > may find him > >>self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, > >>only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in > >>those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in > the month > >>of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season > on the Wild Bearded Clam." > >> > >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >>Caveats: NONE > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------ > >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 3 20:32:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:32:38 -0500 Subject: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED118@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 12/3/2008 03:12 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >Just in case there was any doubt, I'm aware that the "original" article >is a parody. I just thought it was funny, and tried to extend the joke >by submitting what obviously isn't an antedating . . . I didn't think it was quite as funny (or as genuine-appearing) as I think they were hoping -- but then again, I'm beginning to think of myself as an expert -- or perhaps it's just as a curmudgeon -- on colonial American newspapers. Joel > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:08 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Sam Clements > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and > > "bearded clam" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > > > Sam Clements > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joel S. Berson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 22:54 > > Subject: Re: Significant Antedating for "beaver" and "bearded clam" > > > > > > > This can't be genuine -- John Jacob Aster did not arrive in America > > > until March 1784 [Wikipedia]. Apparently I didn't note > > that fact when > > > I submitted my antedating of "burger" (OED has it only from > > > 1939) which is in the same issue [see ADS-L archives, 11 Oct. 2008]. > > > > > > And by the way, any submission needs to be dated "circa 6 October, > > > 1783" -- that's all the masthead says. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > P.S. For those really, really interested, I can provide a short, > > > selective, somewhat random criticism that concludes that > > the editors > > > of _The Onion_ did not do a very convincing job of emulating an > > > 18th-century newspaper. > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > At 12/2/2008 05:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > >>Caveats: NONE > > >> > > >>OED has 1927 for this sense (female genitalia) of beaver, > > and does not > > >>list "bearded clam" > > >> > > >>"John Jacob Astor Out Looking for Beaver" _The Onion_ > > October 6, 1783 > > >>p. 2 col 5 > > >> > > >>"Should the enterprising GERMAN, by the Smile of good > > Fortune, reach > > >>the fertile back woods of New Hampshire, it is likely he > > may find him > > >>self secured to his very PUPILS in Beaver, and, we hasten to note, > > >>only good Beaver at that, and None of this foul Skunk Pelt seen in > > >>those parts of late. . . . He takes only a Brief Respite in > > the month > > >>of August, when the New Found-land Territories open season > > on the Wild Bearded Clam." > > >> > > >>http://www.theonion.com/content/news/historical_archives_john_jacob > > >>Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > >>Caveats: NONE > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 20:43:47 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:43:47 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812031532.mB3Bl4Zs029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I first heard FOOD-SHOP spoken in 1962 by a black female friend in Los Angeles. It made an indelible impression on me because that was the first time that I'd ever heard this expression. Theretofore, I'd heard and used only "go to the store" in this meaning. I was taken aback, to say the least. Now, that I think about it, she was also the first black person that I ever heard use "Jesus (Christ)!" as an exclamation (FWIWirrefutable evidence that she knew white people socially as opposed to merely necessarily; very rare from the lips of a black person, even today) instead of the now-stereotypical, but, nevertheless, still-typical, [Si:It], etc. and was also the source of "pearltongue" as a slang term for "clitoris"; "pull," seduce a woman, for love or for money; "catch," acquire a client for an act of prostitution; "break luck," acquire the first client of the evening; "catching clothes" attractive, stylish dress (not *provocative*; in L.A., back in the day, "common night-walkers," in the 'hood, at least, blended right in with the well-dressed, "square" female population, "turn [a woman] out" turn ... into a prostitute (in later years, I was surprised to find this phrase used in like manner by "Walter" of MY SECRET LIFE fame). -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb > "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where > X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some > where X is the person for whom one shops. > > type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only > a sample of what's out there. > > (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP > > How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... > kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids > > Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? > www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ > > Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose > Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in > Scotland." ... > www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html > > Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to > Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... > x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php > > BIRTHDAY-SHOP > > Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things > she's written down on a list so far, ... > ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html > > Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you > what they want, or is just plain hard to please? > www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ > > Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday > shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. > www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ > > Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, > 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. > newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- > jamie- lynn/ > > WEDDING-SHOP > > That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. > www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm > > In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the > San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... > thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html > > ..... > > (2) CLOTHING-SHOP > > Great place to clothing shop for your kids. > talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 > > I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. > specktra.net/1222930-post82.html > > SHOE-SHOP > > How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever > been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... > www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html > > I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. > justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ > > FURNITURE-SHOP > > It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. > www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html > > I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me > about this place. > www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture > > COMPUTER-SHOP > > What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. > blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- > inspiron-desktops-over-749/ > > I've never really computer shopped before. > https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 > > TOOL-SHOP > > How to Tool Shop on a Budget. > www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html > > I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to > be selective ... > www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 > > CAR-SHOP > > Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! > www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ > > The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged > by the ... > mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html > > FOOD-SHOP > > City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. > query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? > res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 > > Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going > down. > community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx > > GROCERY-SHOP > > Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over > the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. > www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ > > Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and > women ... > www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm > > VEGETABLE-SHOP > > Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice > a week. > chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 > > I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky > Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. > www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml > > TOY-SHOP > > They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are > averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to > toy shop. > www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 > > Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be > astounding, particularly to those who haven't toy-shopped in awhile. > lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? > site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 > > MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] > > I can't help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly > attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. > adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping > > ..... > > (3) BABY-SHOP > > but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop > online and not ... > community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ > baby_products > > I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church > was even more gratifying. > hopefulhousewife.com/ > > KID-SHOP > > I swore I wasn't going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the > 50-percent-off sale at Children's Place pulled me like the undertow in > the ocean. > bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ > > then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... > thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ > GoToTopic.html > > FAMILY-SHOP > > Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal > your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... > www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 21:10:28 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:10:28 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812032044.mB3H0AbW029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: judge-shopping/forum-shopping (2) would be acceptable, if discouraged, while judge-shopping (3) would be frowned upon by ethics committees. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 3 21:53:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:53:33 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man Message-ID: Judge: "You're just a old, no-good, crack-addict!" Late-forty-ish, black male speaker: "No, I'm not, your honor! I'm a recovering addict, a recovering alcoholic-addict! I'm a changed _nigger_, your honor!" Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went something like this: TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get a hard on_, too. Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 3 22:03:24 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:03:24 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man In-Reply-To: <200812032153.mB3H0Ass029693@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic > cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was > watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was > interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went > something like this: > > TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the > nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? > > CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get > a hard on_, too. > > Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a > brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) > presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, > ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available > in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. So, something akin to the reanalysis of "send a shout out" as "send a shout-out", which we discussed last year? http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0707B&L=ADS-L&P=R14324 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Thu Dec 4 00:28:19 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:28:19 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim Message-ID: Whack DAT bro wit yo hoe! dh Wilson Gray wrtoe: Subject: Heard on The Judges: an anomalous claim >Mid-thirty-ish, white male speaker: >"Your honor, _we_ have this saying, 'bros before hos.'" >What do you mean, _we_, white man?!!! And it ain't no "before," >neither! It's "b'fo'"! >Yet another sordid example of the appropriation of black culture by The Man! >Sigh! What can you do? ;-) >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Dec 4 03:26:32 2008 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:26:32 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: These latest additions to the list of backformed compound verbs headed by 'shop' reminded me of 'doctor-shop', which I noticed a couple of years ago and included with a few other backformations gathered at around the same time: http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2006/03/13/backformation-roundup/. The specific quotation with 'doctor-shop' is: "The decision puts Limbaugh back near square one and is likely to reinvigorate the criminal investigation into whether he 'doctor-shopped.'" ("Justices won't hear Limbaugh appeal," Palm Beach Post 29 Apr. 2005) Neal Whitman Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Velasco" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Marc Velasco > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > judge-shopping/forum-shopping (2) would be acceptable, if discouraged, > while > judge-shopping (3) would be frowned upon by ethics committees. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Dec 4 14:11:14 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 06:11:14 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on this thread. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC unquote _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Dec 4 15:48:16 2008 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:48:16 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping Message-ID: Suggestion isn't enough for these backformations, since the question is whether speakers have actually taken the step of inferring the existence of the verb and started using it. the term. Googling on "store buy", I find a lot of irrelevant hits with 'store' and 'buy' next to each other, but when I searched for 'we store buy', I found this: Do you use vitamins fromyour pedatrition or store buy them? Options: a.. yes, we only use what the doctor gives us b.. no, we store buy them http://www.cafemom.com/quizzes/poll_view.php?id=22151 Neal Whitman Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau " To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by > MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a > term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on > this thread. > > James A. Landau > Test Engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > > ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC > JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC > unquote > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:53:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:53:25 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041411.mB4BkvOY008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:11 AM, Jim Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated > by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence > of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones > discussed on this thread. this is exactly backwards. the usual story on the creation of back- formed two-part verbs is that they arise from "synthetic compounds", compound nouns of the form X + Y, where Y is a PRP, agentive, or PSP version of a V ("bicycle-riding", "bicycle-rider", "storm-tossed") and X is a N denoting a non-subject. synthetic compounds do not presuppose the existence of a verb V+N ("bicycle-ride", "storm-toss"). but synthetic compounds *look* like they're based on V+N verbs, so the way is open for people to innovate these verbs. so from the noun "substitute teacher" 'someone who teaches as a substitute for the regular teacher' we get a new verb "substitute-teach" (pointed out to me by Chris Waigl not long ago), and from the noun "doctor-shopping" 'shopping for a doctor' we get a new verb "doctor-shop" (as Neal Whitman has reminded us). once that's happened and the innovative verb spreads, people will be inclined to see what were originally synthetic compounds as just based on the innovative verb. these days, people think of "babysitter" as based on the verb "babysit", though historically it's the other way around; synchronically, "babysitter" *is* based on the verb "babysit". "store-bought" is a (conventionalized, formulaic) synthetic compound of the PSP type ('bought in/from a store'). it doesn't presuppose a verb "store-buy" 'buy in/from a store' (though such a verb might have been innovated by now). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:06:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:06:18 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041548.mB4Bkvc2008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > Suggestion isn't enough for these backformations, since the question is > whether speakers have actually taken the step of inferring the existence of > the verb and started using it. the term. Googling on "store buy", I find a > lot of irrelevant hits with 'store' and 'buy' next to each other, but when I > searched for 'we store buy', I found this: > > Do you use vitamins fromyour pedatrition or store buy them? ["Pediatrition" is a great misspelling, under the influence from "nutrition", etc.] > Options: > > a.. yes, we only use what the doctor gives us > b.. no, we store buy them > http://www.cafemom.com/quizzes/poll_view.php?id=22151 And you can also find "store(-)bought" used as an active, transitive, past-tense verb: --- http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/butterfly_gardening/35020/240544 The only other Columbine I have is one that I "store-bought" last summer, and it's burgundy and cream colored. --- http://www.halflife2.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-51818.html I store bought it, and activated it, and it's not working very well for me at all :-) I'm about to store-buy it - what's not working for you? --- http://caloriecount.about.com/yummy-low-cal-desserts-gt245-46 I store bought one--it had no bad for you stuff aka trans fats, partially hydrodgenated ya da... --- http://www.fun-theme-party-ideas.com/star-war-birthday-party.html We store bought our cake this time, but a Star War birthday party cake can be done pretty easily. --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 4 17:35:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:35:53 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812041553.mB4BqDal029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 7:53 AM, i wrote: > ... synthetic compounds do not > presuppose the existence of a verb V+N ("bicycle-ride", "storm-toss"). > > but synthetic compounds *look* like they're based on V+N verbs, ... for "V+N", read "N+V". ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 20:58:16 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:58:16 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C932@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than necessarily being eloquent or admirable. Below are ones I am considering. I would welcome suggestions of additional quotes from 2008, particularly ones from popular culture or entertainment or sports or business or technology. Many of the political quotes below are anti-Republican in nature (to some extent this is inevitable, I can't distort reality in the interest of balance, i.e., if you nominate people like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin, you're going to have a lot of notable quotes that make you look foolish), so I would also welcome suggestions of particularly notable anti-Democratic quotes, so I can have some balance. Also, if anyone cares to take the time to tell me which of the ones below they think deserve to be in the top 10, that would be extremely helpful. Fred Shapiro I think the Straight Talk Express just lost a wheel. Barack Obama That one. John McCain I am not President Bush. If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago. John McCain, 3rd presidential debate The fundamentals of America's economy are strong. John McCain, Interview with Peter Cook on Bloomberg TV, Apr. 17, 2008 If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exit. Bernie Sanders Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in a financial crisis. Paul Krugman It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number. Treasury spokeswoman to Forbes.com, explaining how the $700 million number was chosen for the initial bailout Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Popular recent maxim I can see Russia from my house. Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin Make it a hundred [more years of having U.S. troops in Iraq]! John McCain [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. Tina Fey on Letterman show I've never been a part of a tie. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. Donovan McNabb A man has a right to defend himself, even against his own leg. Posting on Freakonomics blog about Plaxico Burress You betcha! Sarah Palin Yes, we can! Barack Obama campaign slogan I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. Hillary Clinton We have sort of become a nation of whiners. Phil Gramm What's the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom? Lipstick. Sarah Palin I drink your milkshake. There Will Be Blood Why so serious? The Dark Knight Drill, baby, drill! Slogan of Palin supporters Who would you have picking up the phone at 3 a.m.? Hillary Clinton Campaign ad Change you can believe in. Obama campaign slogan For the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback Michelle Obama I didn't major in math, I majored in miracles. Mike Huckabee As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. Sarah Palin [Response when asked to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads:] All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years. Sarah Palin, Katie Courc CBS News interview, Oct. 1, 2008 [Response when asked how many houses he and his wife own:] I think -- I'll have my staff get to you. It's condominiums where -- I'll have them get to you. John McCain, Interview with Politico, Las Cruces, N.M., Aug. 20, 2008 It's not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to capture their frustrations. Barack Obama ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 4 21:23:37 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:23:37 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 Message-ID: Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes I just posted. It should be: If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Thu Dec 4 21:49:59 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:49:59 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than necessarily being eloquent or admirable. > > Below are ones I am considering. I would welcome suggestions of additional quotes from 2008, particularly ones from popular culture or entertainment or sports or business or technology. Many of the political quotes below are anti-Republican in nature (to some extent this is inevitable, I can't distort reality in the interest of balance, i.e., if you nominate people like Dan Quayle and Sarah Palin, you're going to have a lot of notable quotes that make you look foolish), so I would also welcome suggestions of particularly notable anti-Democratic quotes, so I can have some balance. I don't have one of those, although I remember hearing a few, but I'd offer - perhaps to a different list, such as "The Most Notable Sneer Quotes of 2008"?, John McCain's " 'health' of the mother" line. It certainly struck a whole lot of us strongly. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 4 22:14:14 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:14:14 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I can see Russia from my house. > Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) > [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. > Tina Fey on Letterman show Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is the new black"? > I drink your milkshake. > There Will Be Blood Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date justifies a 2008 popularization. --Ben ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 4 23:26:16 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:26:16 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042125.mB4BkvCG008808@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes I just posted. It should be: > >If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Here's another: Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson "many not be" should be "may not be". Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 5 00:50:18 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:50:18 -0500 Subject: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: A<5f66f9f10812041526v23221f6eq9ac6af452c7459d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, it should say: "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency." Also, since this was Section 8 of the initial Treasury draft of what eventually became the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, I don't know that it should be attributed to Paulson personally, as he is unlikely to have written it and did not take personal credit for it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Mandel Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [PW] Most Notable Quotations of 2008 On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Michael Hart has pointed out that there is a typo in one of the quotes >I just posted. It should be: > >If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. Here's another: Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson "many not be" should be "may not be". Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 01:07:09 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:07:09 -0500 Subject: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) In-Reply-To: <200812021209.mB2C9og4015470@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Joel is correct that my 1825 citation antedates the adjective in OED from 1856, and the noun from 1837. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Further minor Antedating of "Linguistic" (adj) Isn't the 1856 date for the adjective? The noun (The science of languages; philology. a. sing) dates from 1837. Antedating for linguistic (adj). OED 1856-. Weekly Eagle, published as The Semi-Weekly Eagle; Date: 04-02-1849; Volume: II; Issue: 68; Page: [2]; Location: Brattleboro, Vermont [EAN]. This linguistic entertainment soon grew irksome to the impatient Spaniard, and the conference speedily terminated. Joel At 12/2/2008 06:11 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1825 _Asiatic Journal_ 1 Dec. 648 (19th Century UK Periodicals) THE >science of the general comparison of languages, now developing >itself under the name of _linguistic_, has, within a short period, >made a very remarkable progress. ... Since these scattered materials >have been collected, in a manner more or less perfect, by the >diligence of a Pallas, a Hervas, an Adelung, a Vater, and a >Klaproth, we may hope to see the linguistic science extend itself >more and more, and acquire a regularity in its form and principles. >... The present comparative essay pretends to contribute no addition >to our actual knowledge in the linguistic department. > > >linguistic science (OED 1922) > >1825 [see above] > > >Fred Shapiro > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 02:32:00 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:32:00 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042224.mB4BqD8J029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What about the caption oof a New Yorker carton: "Black is the new black." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> I can see Russia from my house. >> Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin > > (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line > is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) > >> [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly smart enough. >> Tina Fey on Letterman show > > Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is the new black"? > >> I drink your milkshake. >> There Will Be Blood > > Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date > justifies a 2008 popularization. > > > --Ben > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 02:38:39 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:38:39 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C933@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 12/4/2008 03:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this >President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and >many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. >Hank Paulson This is one I consider very significant. Regardless of carping and correction and attribution. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 02:51:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:51:42 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" Message-ID: Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From berman at UCLALUMNI.NET Fri Dec 5 03:57:43 2008 From: berman at UCLALUMNI.NET (Robert Berman) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:57:43 -0800 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BqD1F029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hello, Fred. Thanks for the opportunity. My choices are below, with ranking. Bob Berman Los Angeles ---------- MY CHOICES & RANKINGS of your list. 1? For the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback Michelle Obama 2? It's not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to capture their frustrations. Barack Obama 3? As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. Sarah Palin 4? Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this President are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and many not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Hank Paulson 5? It's not based on any particular data point, we just wanted to choose a really large number. Treasury spokeswoman to Forbes.com, explaining how the $700 million number was chosen for the initial bailout 6? [Response when asked to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads:] All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years. Sarah Palin, Katie Couric CBS News interview, Oct. 1, 2008 7? What's the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom? Lipstick. Sarah Palin 8? I've never been a part of a lie [THIS WAS SPELLED "tie" in your request]. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. Donovan McNabb 9? I think the Straight Talk Express just lost a wheel. Barack Obama ---------------------------- ---------------------------- MY CHOICES FOR OTHER QUOTES: The following are all from ALL GREAT QUOTES at http://www.allgreatquotes.com/quotes_of_the_week_2008.shtml "The financial crisis is nothing compared with the environmental crisis." -- Jean-Christophe Vie, of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, on a new report that 25% of the world's mammals face extinction. "If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible; who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time; who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer." -- Barack Obama, in victory speech in US presidential election in home state of Chicago, November 4, 2008. Quotes of the Week - November 17, 2008: "I have signed this agreement because my belief in Zimbabwe and its peoples runs deeper than the scars I bear from the struggle ... and because my hope for the future is greater than the grief for the needless suffering of the past years. We deserve a better life; a life without fear, hunger, poverty and oppression." -- Morgan Tsvangirai, the incoming Prime Minister of Zimbabwe. "For the pain, suffering and hurt of these stolen generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry. To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry. And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry." -- Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd apologises for the past mistreatment of Aborigines. "I don't know if I will die of happiness." -- Sarah Obama, celebrating her grandson's victory in the US presidential election, from her home in the village of Kogelo, Kenya. "It will never work with all those Huns, wops and dagos." -- Britain's Queen Mother on the EU, quoted by BBC man Edward Stourton in his book 'It's a PC World'. "Our preference would be to get a shelter dog, but, obviously, a lot of shelter dogs are mutts like me." -- Barack Obama, on choosing a dog for his children as they go into the White House. "We had never heard of her. We had to look her up in Wikipedia" -- Spokesman for Woolworths stores in UK, who were forced to withdraw a children's bed named "Lolita" after mothers objected to it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ---------------------------------- Metaphors Be With You ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 04:13:36 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:13:36 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <82745f630812041832y34434504ic3dbdaf81d5e477d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:32 PM -0500 12/4/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >What about the caption oof a New Yorker carton: "Black is the new black." > >-Wilson I mentioned that caption here (11/20) and got jumped on because the dictum was old hat, having been discussed a couple of years ago. I think the new cartoon is a particularly apt cite for it, given the election context, but that will have to be our minority report, as it were. LH > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > > > >On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> >>> I can see Russia from my house. >>> Tina Fey, satirizing Sarah Palin >> >> (That's my personal favorite. So dead-on a satirization that the line >> is now commonly attributed to Palin herself.) >> >>> [Sarah Palin] is not any smarter than I am and that's not nearly >>>smart enough. >>> Tina Fey on Letterman show >> >> Not to overload the list with Feyisms, but what about "Bitch is >>the new black"? >> >>> I drink your milkshake. >>> There Will Be Blood >> >> Technically from 2007, though the film's 12/26/07 release date >> justifies a 2008 popularization. >> >> >> --Ben >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 04:18:14 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:18:14 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0800 12/4/08, Robert Berman wrote: > >8* I've never been a part of a lie [THIS WAS SPELLED "tie" in your >request]. I never even knew that that was in the rule book. >Donovan McNabb > Am I missing something? McNabb said "tie" because he was talking about ties, i.e. NFL games that are still tied after the 15-minute overtime. The quarterback of one of the two teams involved in such a game between the Eagles and Bengals famously admitted he didn't know that such games are officially ties, if they occur during the regular season and not the playoffs. Where do lies come in? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:07:22 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:07:22 -0500 Subject: "Inventative" Message-ID: Used by the voiceover-guy for "sumpnother," as my Texas granddaddy used to say. I've now heard this out of the corner of my ear several times, but only this week have I become certain that this was truly what I was hearing. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:17:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:17:25 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812032044.mB3Jm92b029695@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I hear simple "holiday" used in the meaning, "holiday-shop," in the voiceover of an ad on local cable. Is there no end?! -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I first heard FOOD-SHOP spoken in 1962 by a black female friend in Los > Angeles. It made an indelible impression on me because that was the > first time that I'd ever heard this expression. Theretofore, I'd heard > and used only "go to the store" in this meaning. I was taken aback, to > say the least. Now, that I think about it, she was also the first > black person that I ever heard use "Jesus (Christ)!" as an exclamation > (FWIWirrefutable evidence that she knew white people socially as > opposed to merely necessarily; very rare from the lips of a black > person, even today) instead of the now-stereotypical, but, > nevertheless, still-typical, [Si:It], etc. and was also the source of > "pearltongue" as a slang term for "clitoris"; "pull," seduce a woman, > for love or for money; "catch," acquire a client for an act of > prostitution; "break luck," acquire the first client of the evening; > "catching clothes" attractive, stylish dress (not *provocative*; in > L.A., back in the day, "common night-walkers," in the 'hood, at least, > blended right in with the well-dressed, "square" female population, > "turn [a woman] out" turn ... into a prostitute (in later years, I was > surprised to find this phrase used in like manner by "Walter" of MY > SECRET LIFE fame). > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: more back-formed shopping >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> back on 28 November i reported on the two-part back-formed verb >> "holiday-shop". there are, of course, more X-shop verbs. some where >> X is an occasion, some where X is the object of the shopping, some >> where X is the person for whom one shops. >> >> type (2) is quite productive. the many examples i give below are only >> a sample of what's out there. >> >> (1) CHRISTMAS-SHOP >> >> How to Christmas Shop for Kids: Great Gift Ideas for Children and ... >> kidsproducts.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_christmas_shop_for_kids >> >> Do you plan to Christmas shop early Friday morning? >> www.irontontribune.com/polls/2008/nov/shop/ >> >> Her Royal Highness and Little Sister Princess Margaret Rose >> Christmas-shopped eagerly in "a sixpenny store somewhere in >> Scotland." ... >> www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762110-2,00.html >> >> Speaking of Paris ... another site's reporting she's on her way to >> Miami but we' re with her now as she Christmas shops in LA ... >> x17online.com/celebrities/britney_spears/britneys_man_idd.php >> >> BIRTHDAY-SHOP >> >> Off to birthday shop, a bit. She won't be getting the only things >> she's written down on a list so far, ... >> ninjapoodles.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-down-one-to-go-plus-halloween.html >> >> Ever have to birthday shop for that one person who never tells you >> what they want, or is just plain hard to please? >> www.maggieboriginalsblog.com/category/gift-baskets/birthday/ >> >> Sister Britney was spotted leaving Ed Hardy where she birthday >> shopped with [sic] Jamie-Lynn with their Mom. >> www.celebritybabyscoop.com/2008/04/04/happy-birthday-jamie-lynn/ >> >> Britney Spears Birthday Shops for Sis Jamie Lynn. April 12th, >> 2008 ... She also picked up a few things for her brother and father. >> newpaparazzi.com/2008/04/12/britney-spears-birthday-shops-for-sis- >> jamie- lynn/ >> >> WEDDING-SHOP >> >> That leaves 1 or 2 days to wedding shop and arrange consultations. >> www.atlanticcityweddings.com/advertising.htm >> >> In the last nine days, I traveled 3316 miles, did a session at the >> San Diego temple, wedding shopped, ate an 18 dollar tomato, ... >> thedecorias.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html >> >> ..... >> >> (2) CLOTHING-SHOP >> >> Great place to clothing shop for your kids. >> talk.ocalamom.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6641046686/m/1881016397 >> >> I haven't really clothing shopped for myself in almost a year. >> specktra.net/1222930-post82.html >> >> SHOE-SHOP >> >> How to Shoe Shop With Your Wife. If you are a man and you've ever >> been "stuck" in shopping with your wife for shoes, ... >> www.ehow.com/how_2112588_shoe-shop-wife.html >> >> I could have shoe shopped in NYC. harrumph. >> justagirlintheworld.com/the-stress-continues/ >> >> FURNITURE-SHOP >> >> It's fun to furniture shop. You can do it in person, or online. >> www.ehow.com/articles_2449-other-furniture.html >> >> I furniture shopped everywhere, and a friend ended up telling me >> about this place. >> www.yelp.com/browse/reviews/recent?loc=Seattle%2C+WA&category=furniture >> >> COMPUTER-SHOP >> >> What better place to computer shop than at Dell.com. >> blogs.smarter.com/gadgets/2008/06/02/computer-shopping-200-off- >> inspiron-desktops-over-749/ >> >> I've never really computer shopped before. >> https://www.beethoven.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2842 >> >> TOOL-SHOP >> >> How to Tool Shop on a Budget. >> www.ehow.com/how_2104035_tool-shop-budget.html >> >> I tool shopped at HF they do have some good tools you just have to >> be selective ... >> www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?p=40274 >> >> CAR-SHOP >> >> Bizarro Brit -- Wears Wedding Dress to Car Shop! >> www.tmz.com/2008/01/13/bizarro-brit-wears-wedding-dress-to-car-shop/ >> >> The last time I car-shopped (shudder) I was amazed and discouraged >> by the ... >> mrmonkeysuit.typepad.com/mr_monkeysuit/2008/08/felt-peas-tutorial.html >> >> FOOD-SHOP >> >> City Tells Its Firefighters Not to Food-Shop on Duty. >> query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html? >> res=9905E1DC1731F936A25755C0A9679C8B63 >> >> Ask anyone who has food shopped lately, food prices are not going >> down. >> community.kget.com/blogs/kiyoshi_tomono/archive/2007/09/19/1983728.aspx >> >> GROCERY-SHOP >> >> Learning to grocery shop wisely can save thousands of dollars over >> the years, and free up considerable money & time each month. >> www.bluntmoney.com/how-to-grocery-shop-wisely/ >> >> Among only those who grocery shopped, men spent 40 minutes and >> women ... >> www.ers.usda.gov/Data/ATUS/Current.htm >> >> VEGETABLE-SHOP >> >> Plus I only have to vegetable shop every two weeks instead of twice >> a week. >> chowhound.chow.com/topics/479824 >> >> I stood with a longtime friend, Tom Richardson, who lives at Sky >> Valley, and asked him how often he vegetable shopped at Osage's. >> www.onlineathens.com/stories/091708/liv_333127372.shtml >> >> TOY-SHOP >> >> They were happy the lower-than-normal gas prices, which are >> averaging about $1.96 in Central Ohio, have allowed them the luxury to >> toy shop. >> www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20081116/NEWS01/811160307 >> >> Toys have changed over the years and the assortment can be >> astounding, particularly to those who haven't toy-shopped in awhile. >> lakecharles.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx? >> site=107&id=a9d5facf-8d95-4794-b575-d070a2704151&art=666 >> >> MOMMY-SHOP [by adoptive children, searching for new mommies] >> >> I can't help but think that if she felt more secure and was truly >> attached that she would not have the need to Mommy shop. >> adoptive-parenting.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/mommy-shopping >> >> ..... >> >> (3) BABY-SHOP >> >> but when i am up to it and i have the money i prefer to baby shop >> online and not ... >> community.babycenter.com/post/a1658875/do_you_like_shopping_for_ >> baby_products >> >> I havent baby shopped in a long time, and to do it for the church >> was even more gratifying. >> hopefulhousewife.com/ >> >> KID-SHOP >> >> I swore I wasn't going to kid shop on my night of freedom, but the >> 50-percent-off sale at Children's Place pulled me like the undertow in >> the ocean. >> bitchymommyblog.wordpress.com/tag/shopping/ >> >> then kid-shopped at Old Navy and got my niece's 20% discount ... >> thegrind.aimoo.com/TopicID-31545/ForumID-25603/Option-Next/ >> GoToTopic.html >> >> FAMILY-SHOP >> >> Pick up a few extra papers if family members are known to steal >> your ads (yes, it happens) or if you plan to family shop ... >> www.associatedcontent.com/article/1028986/successful_black_friday_shopping_starts.html >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:31:31 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:31:31 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 2008 to 3 Dec 2008 (#2008-338) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/2008 12:06:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Am I the only one that knows the "Onion" is a satirical > > newspaper on the internet the last 5 years or so? > > > > Sam Clements "The Onion" has been around in print form a lot longer than 5 years. I remember running across it in the early 1970s. Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:21:38 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:21:38 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) Message-ID: The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. Hillary Clinton **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 05:48:02 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 00:48:02 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man In-Reply-To: <200812032213.mB3Bl4VY029697@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To quote R. Crumb< "Eggs Actly." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "nigger" = person, man > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Sometimes, the censors are asleep at the switch, especially on basic >> cable or on the earlier equivalent thereof. Back in the day, I was >> watching some off-brand channel on which a talking head was >> interviewing the female cast-members of OH, CALCUTTA! It went >> something like this: >> >> TH: Do you feel that what you girls are doing, appearing fully in the >> nude on stage, might be somewhat sexually provocative? >> >> CM: Why, of course. Indeed, I suppose that, if I were a man, I'd _get >> a hard on_, too. >> >> Some readers may prefer "hard-on," But, I'm fully persuaded by a >> brilliant, oral argument (and the guy's not even a native-speaker) >> presented before a baby-syntax class at M.I.T. by Henk van Riemsdijk, >> ca.1973, and the existence of _get on hard_, the only form available >> in BE, that the hyphen is superfluous. > > So, something akin to the reanalysis of "send a shout out" as "send a > shout-out", which we discussed last year? > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0707B&L=ADS-L&P=R14324 > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Fri Dec 5 10:31:09 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:31:09 -0500 Subject: _discover himself to me_ Message-ID: I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his companion. I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 5 10:46:03 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:46:03 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <12185855.1841228473888811.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:29:46 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:29:46 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > >Rosemarie > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a precedent, I'm scared. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:46:34 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:46:34 -0500 Subject: _discover himself to me_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 05:31 AM, David Metevia wrote: >I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > >I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover >himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his >companion. > > >I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. The first few definitions of "discover" in the OED have the sense of "uncover", specifically "3.a. To disclose or expose to view (anything covered up, hidden, or previously unseen), to reveal [note!], show. Now rare." A couple of 18th century quotations: "1716 LADY M. W. MONTAGU Let. to Pope 14 Sept., The stage was built over a..canal, and, at the beginning of the second act, divided into two parts discovering the water. 1797 MRS. RADCLIFFE Italian xxxii, This discovered to Schedoni the various figures assembled in his dusky chamber." There is also "6. To reveal the identity of (a person); hence, to betray. arch." Chess has the "discovered check". "Reveal"s closest sense is 3.[b.] "To display, show, make clear or visible, exhibit." [reflexive]. So I suspect the answer lies in which was more common at the time, and personal preference of the author. It is perhaps interesting, though, that the OED has no definition, nor any quotes that I noticed, for a reflexive form. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 13:51:30 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:51:30 -0800 Subject: _discover himself to me_ In-Reply-To: <200812051031.mB52kva7029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:31 AM, David Metevia wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Metevia > Subject: _discover himself to me_ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > > I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover > himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his > companion. > > > I would have expected _reveal_ and not discover. an older sense of "discover". the OED has for sense 3a 'To disclose or expose to view (anything covered up, hidden, or previously unseen), to reveal, show. Now rare.' cites from c1450 through 1882. and more specifically, sense 6 (arch.) 'To reveal the identity of (a person)' -- with a 1726 cite of "discover'd herself to me" and a 1865 cite of "discovering himself to them". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 13:53:39 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:53:39 -0500 Subject: Q: No reflexive sense defined for "discover, v.)? Message-ID: A correspondent on another list wrote: >I am currently reading _FRANKENSTEIN_ and this sentence seems odd: > >I did not doubt but that the monster followed me and would discover >himself to me when I should have finished, that he might receive his >companion. While this usage does not seem to me to be odd for the period, I noticed that for "discover" the OED does not specifically have a sense labeled "refl.". Nor any reflexive quotations that I could discover, except for "6. To reveal the identity of (a person); hence, to betray. arch.", which is not the meaning of the _Frankenstein_ quotation. The OED has, however, an explicit reflexive entry for "reveal, v.", namely 3.b. Should there be one for "discover"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 14:07:31 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:07:31 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB53H69B008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Right, Geoff. I feel the same way. It seems to me that I heard "store-boughten" and not "store-bought" as the usual form in horse operas and "hometown" radiio shows like Lum & Abner, Just Plain Bill (often parodied as "Just Plain Bull"), The Judy Canovan Show, Lorenzo Jones & His Wife, Belle, etc., back during The War. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 5 14:37:45 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:37:45 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" In-Reply-To: <200812050507.mB52kvKt029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: > "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" I have a recording from between 2000 and 2002 (i'd have to check for the exact date) of an upper-middle-class male from the northern end of Utah's Wasatch Front, then in his late 70s, in a formal semi-scripted situation saying "on the [kOr], uh, [kar]ner", with some self-repair-type stress on the first syllable of "carner". If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know? -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Dec 5 14:49:25 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:49:25 -0000 Subject: Eggorn? Different cattle of fish Message-ID: A World Wide Words subscriber - John Walden-Jones from Spain - points out that "different cattle of fish" has a number of Google hits. The ADS-L search doesn't work at the moment, so apologies if it has appeared here before. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 5 14:41:39 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:41:39 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language Message-ID: I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop music personality Britney Spears: 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals very little" : Britney insists she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing a guy and hanging out." It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have any other similar uses? There's a 2004 song by Dem Franchize Boyz called "White Tee" that uses slang as a verb in a way that might be similar, but since it's followed in the lyrics by "spitting game" 'making verbal romantic advances towards women,' and because it's a verb, I wouldn't count it: I slang in my white tee, I bang in my white tee All in the club spitting game in my white tee I bling in my white tee, serve fiends in my white tee Fuck a throwback I look clean in my white tee. ("Fiends" is another matter. Some fan lyric sites transcribe it as "feigns," others as "things," others as "fends." It sounds like "fiends" to me and "fiends" makes the most sense, since "serve fiends" would mean to "sell drugs to addicts" which gibes with the ballers'- and-bangers' lifestyle being described in the song.) (One more note: "white tee" refers to the custom of young black men wearing plain white T-shirts as a mode of passive defense. For one thing, if they're wearing white, then they're likely not wearing gang colors and won't offend anyone accidentally. For two, if most young black men wear white tees, then it's hard for the police or witness to pick a single figure out as a suspect. The "white tee" idea makes a small appearance in HBO's series "The Wire" but definitely predates the show and the song above.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 5 14:58:53 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:58:53 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <0F6A0E6C-024E-4C70-9307-BB86E153C541@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 09:41:39AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop > music personality Britney Spears: > > 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals > very little" : Britney insists > she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool > chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool > slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing > a guy and hanging out." > > It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like > slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have > any other similar uses? > > There's a 2004 song by Dem Franchize Boyz called "White Tee" that uses > slang as a verb in a way that might be similar, but since it's > followed in the lyrics by "spitting game" 'making verbal romantic > advances towards women,' and because it's a verb, I wouldn't count it: > > I slang in my white tee, I bang in my white tee Not familiar with the Spears use, which is interesting; but surely the above example is just the common 'to deal drugs' sense? Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 14:59:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:59:41 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812050531.mB52kvPp029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:17 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I hear simple "holiday" used in the meaning, "holiday-shop," in the > voiceover of an ad on local cable. Is there no end?! could we have the context (and some details about the ad)? it's not something i can google up easily. (there is a british idiom "go holiday" 'go on holiday' and a verb "holiday" 'to vacation', which NOAD2 marks as chiefly british.) a verb "holiday" could also be a verbing with more general meaning ('celebrate the holidays' or something like that). and there's another verbing in "holidayed out" (meaning something like 'exhausted from celebrating the holidays'). but i haven't been able to find any instances of a verb "holiday" that means specifically 'holiday-shop'. so: context, wilson, context! arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Dec 5 15:01:07 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:01:07 -0500 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB52kvaB029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand googits, most un-self-conscious). I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields no hits for 'store bought'. I say "store-boughten"; it is a thing some think I oughtn't but when I have stridden from the store I have boughten a little more ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 5 15:11:07 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:11:07 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <20081205145853.GA20083@panix.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 09:58, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > Not familiar with the Spears use, which is interesting; but > surely the above example is just the common 'to deal drugs' > sense? Maybe, maybe. It's not clear. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:27:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:27:12 -0800 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <200812051046.mB53H69B008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:46 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoff Nathan > Subject: Re: more back-formed shopping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further to the discussion of 'store-bought' I had always thought the > older version was actually 'store-boughten' (has a couple thousand > googits, most un-self-conscious). as against over a million for "store-bought". > I'm pretty sure I heard the (perhaps ironic) doubly-suffixed > version long before I heard the slightly more regularized one. A > very brief Google Books search finds it in the 1918 ADS publication > 'Dialect Notes', Vol. 5 Parts I-X). A search inside the book yields > no hits for 'store bought'. the OED under "store" has (entry 14) "store-bought", with "store- boughten" listed as a U.S. variant. the "store-boughten" variant has the earlier cites (1883, 1933, 1974, as against the "store-bought" cites, which start with 1952). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 15:28:29 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:28:29 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: <200812051330.mB5BljSN013511@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Read the fine print. That was H. Clinton, not S. Palin. Mark Mandel On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: > >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and > false > >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > > > >Rosemarie > > > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin > said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a > precedent, I'm scared. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:51:31 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:51:31 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new Message-ID: My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: --- Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burl?sque_ (1664), p. 80 A lusty Rascal, such a one As one of you (dispraise to none) Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, The very best of all my Stock. --- That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage from the Book IV burlesque: --- At last she sallies from the House, As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. --- Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": --- Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:07:58 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:07:58 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:21 AM -0500 12/5/08, Your Name wrote: >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and false >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > >Rosemarie Now now, perhaps she really did remember it. It doesn't mean it really happened, but she remembered it happening. LH > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > >In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > >I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. >Hillary Clinton > > > >**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and >favorite sites in one place. Try it now. >(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 16:17:53 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:17:53 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051601.mB5BmMKx013541@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IIRC, there's a pun on that in _The Wizard of Oz_. In the book, the Wizard grants the Scarecrow's wish by filling his head with bran instead of straw, thus giving him "bran-new brains". Mark Mandel On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies > surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of > interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: > > --- > Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being > the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burl?sque_ (1664), p. 80 > A lusty Rascal, such a one > As one of you (dispraise to none) > Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, > Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; > Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, > The very best of all my Stock. > --- > > That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). > Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of > the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: > > http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott > http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 > > However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage > from the Book IV burlesque: > > --- > At last she sallies from the House, > As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. > Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, > The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. > --- > > Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": > > --- > Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the > right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, > and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 > Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, > That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. > --- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:28:26 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:28:26 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <0F6A0E6C-024E-4C70-9307-BB86E153C541@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >I've just run across an interesting use of "slang" from prominent pop >music personality Britney Spears: > >2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney reveals >very little" : Britney insists >she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole cool >slang away from me. Like, going out, and doing stuff, and like seeing >a guy and hanging out." > >It's pretty clear she's not talking about language. It's more like >slang = personal space or ability to be one's self. Does anyone have >any other similar uses? Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by). Either that or she's just using 3d sg. unmarked agreement with a plural noun, but I'd need more evidence to conclude that. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 16:33:21 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:33:21 -0500 Subject: Eggorn? Different cattle of fish In-Reply-To: <49393F75.924.7AD204@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: At 2:49 PM +0000 12/5/08, Michael Quinion wrote: >A World Wide Words subscriber - John Walden-Jones from Spain - points out >that "different cattle of fish" has a number of Google hits. As in a cow of a different color? (Given Britney's "the paparazzi has" with its massification of a count noun, "a different cattle of fish" also allows us to conserve the law of lexical thermodynamics by countifying a mass term.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 5 16:53:01 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:53:01 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812050532.mB53H6wR008835@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of State (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding her from being eligible)? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Your Name > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, > phoney, and false she is. How scarey it is that she almost > became president! > > Rosemarie > > First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2008 12:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard > Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > I remember landing under sniper fire [while visiting Bosnia in 1996]. > Hillary Clinton > > > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, > email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=eml cntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:06:08 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:06:08 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051618.mB5Blj05013511@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > > > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > IIRC, there's a pun on that in _The Wizard of Oz_. In the book, the > Wizard grants the Scarecrow's wish by filling his head with bran > instead of straw, thus giving him "bran-new brains". Yes, as I mention in the final paragraph of the column. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:26:43 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:26:43 -0800 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: <200812051628.mB5BuQHb013990@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >> >> ... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >> reveals >> very little" : Britney insists >> she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >> chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >> cool >> slang away from me... > > Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I > assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some time ago. the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 5 17:41:41 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:41:41 -0500 Subject: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" In-Reply-To: <200812051437.mB5BmMls030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure what you mean by, "If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know?", David, but I think that we're in agreement. I'm grew up in Saint Louis, myself. I recall that a teacher at my high school who was a native of Omaha once tried to point out this feature of Saint Louis English. He told us that we had a peculiar way of speaking; for example, we pronounced the name of the local Central-Park equivalent, Forest Park, as FAH-rest Pork, when it should be pronounced as FOUR-est Park. This flew over our heads, because we said FAH-rest *Park*, not FAH-rest *Pork*!" We just laughed at him. I was born in Texas and when we would go back "behind the sun" to visit relatives, the locals would literally burst into laughter at our speech. At the same time, my brother and I used to amuse ourselves by mocking their East-Texas dialect. I was chatting with a black New Yorker, when he suddenly laughed, noting that "*You* say AH-tomatic; *I* say AW-tomatic!" I found this to be really nervy, since we were in Boston, where my accent and his were equally non-local. He had earlier bitched about the fact that a white New Yorker had hassled him about his use of BE/SE UM-brella instead of standard um-BRELLa. So, he laughed at *my* speech, but he was pissed off because someone had corrected *his* speech. The point, such as it was, of my post was merely to point out "Lord" pronounced "lowered" vs. "Lord" pronounced "Lard," the latter being possibly *the* marker of a Saint Louisan. The speaker was a well-known black actor - unfortunately, I'm senior-momenting on his name - who once had his own TV show. What I was trying to get at was that this well-trained, experienced, standard-English-speaking actor was unable to rid himself of the Saint Louis feature, "lord" > "lard." It's like the case of the woman who voices a character in an animated-cartoon commercial. Her use of "bean" for "been" gives her away as a Canadian. His use of "lard" for "lord" gave him away as a Saint Louisan. That's all. As you say, "if it's part of your native variety, it's really *there*." I hope that this makes sense. I'm on several THIS-MEDICINE-MAY-CAUSE-MENTAL-CONFUSION-AND-MAY-HAVE-OTHER-UNEXPECTED-SIDE-EFFECTS-INCLUDING-DEATH meds. Whoa! I've just heard a black woman from Texas pronounce "another" as "an other." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 9:37 AM, David Bowie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Bowie > Subject: Re: Heard on tonight's CSI: standard English "Lord" > "Lard" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Wilson Gray > >> Spoken by an actor who is a black native of Saint Louis of my age: > >> "_Lard_ [lOrd] have mercy!" > > I have a recording from between 2000 and 2002 (i'd have to check for the > exact date) of an upper-middle-class male from the northern end of > Utah's Wasatch Front, then in his late 70s, in a formal semi-scripted > situation saying "on the [kOr], uh, [kar]ner", with some > self-repair-type stress on the first syllable of "carner". > > If it's a part of your native variety, it's really *there*, you know? > > -- > David Bowie University of Central Florida > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 5 17:46:31 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:46:31 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:26 AM -0800 12/5/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > >>At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> >>>... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >>>reveals >>>very little" : Britney insists >>>she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >>>chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >>>cool >>>slang away from me... >> >>Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I >>assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... > >that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some >time ago. > >the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use >as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences >of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. > Right, that lone paparazzi eating his panini sandwich. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:23:50 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:23:50 -0800 Subject: another round on "to X-shop" Message-ID: In recent postings on N+V compound verbs ("people-watch", "plea- bargain", "store-buy"), I noted that the usual development is (a) V in syntactic construction with N functioning as the head of a non-subject argument ("shop with my family"); (b) N+V' (where V' is related to V by inflection or derivation) in a (non-V) synthetic compound ("family-shopping" 'shopping with one's family', as in "Family-shopping can be wearing"); (c) N+V as a compound verb ("to family-shop"). [the synthetic compounds and the compound verbs are punctuated in various ways: written solid, hyphenated, written as two separate words. i'll let the hyphenated version stand for all three variants.] the label "back-formation" for stage (c) is then a historical label; people who use or hear the verb N+V don't necessarily appreciate its historical source. so the usual consequence of this kind of back-formation in english is the existence of a scattering of N+V compounds in the language. these are duly noted in inventories of the morphological types of english (they are very unevenly represented in dictionaries). they are formally parallel to a type of "noun incorporation" (into verbs) found in many languages, but differ from it in that the english examples are sporadic, while noun incorporation is systematic, general, and productive in languages that are customarily described as having it. [i won't go into several ancillary topics here -- in particular, the animosity of many people towards these back-formations (and verbings and nounings) on the grounds that there are not only innovations, but *unnecessary* innovations.] but sometimes things look different. one class of the "X-shop" verbs stands out here: type (2) in my long posting about the subject, where N +"shop" can be glossed roughly as 'shop for N(s), shop in order to buy N(s)'. in other types of N+"shop" combinations, the story that leads from (a) through (c) seems just right, and is generally supported by attestations, in particular by attestations of the synthetic compounds in (b) before the N+V compounds in (c). i doubt that this is going to work for the avalanche of N+"shop" verbs of type (2). my suggestion -- note, not assertion -- is that N+"shop" in this sense is now a productive pattern in english, so that you can create new instances of it without necessarily having experienced the relevant synthetic compounds. (after four or five hours of collecting N+"shop" verbs in this sense, i tired of the enterprise; there were just too many.) it's hard for me to believe that people had to experience the noun "vegetable-shopping" before they could produce the verb "vegetable- shop". my suggestion is then that N+"shop" in the sense above is an instance of a morphological rule of english, licensing new lexical items (with particular forms and particular meanings). i'm not suggesting that N +V verbs in general are to be described by such a rule, only that there's a small island of regularity in the world of N+V verbs. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 19:13:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:13:38 -0500 Subject: first things first and Palin In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812050728tf6c14b1j106ea640c0858cc2@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 10:28 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Read the fine print. That was H. Clinton, not S. Palin. I did read the fine print. It was the invisible print which I also read. My confusion, ladies and gentlemen, was not about the quote from H. Clinton, but rather from mistaking Rosemarie's "signature" sentence-- which was the first "quotation" immediately below her "The below is ..." -- with one of Fred's year's ten best quotations. It sounded so much like Palin and/or Bush that I saw her name under it. Joel >Mark Mandel > > >On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 12/5/2008 12:21 AM, Your Name wrote: > > >The below is an absolutely perfect statement of how fake, phoney, and > > false > > >she is. How scarey it is that she almost became president! > > > > > >Rosemarie > > > > > >First things first - but not necessarily in that order! > > > > This sounds so much like a Bushism it's hard for me to believe Palin > > said it. (I do not argue that she did not.) And if that's a > > precedent, I'm scared. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 5 19:19:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:19:06 -0500 Subject: Slang as something other than language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/5/2008 12:46 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:26 AM -0800 12/5/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>On Dec 5, 2008, at 8:28 AM, Larry Horn wrote: >> >>>At 9:41 AM -0500 12/5/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >>>> >>>>... 2008 MSNBC (Dec. 4) Andy Dehnart "'For the Record,' Britney >>>>reveals >>>>very little" : Britney insists >>>>she is "a very private person" and later says, "I used to be a cool >>>>chick, you know? And I feel like the paparazzi has taken my whole >>>>cool >>>>slang away from me... >>> >>>Interesting too that she seems to use "paparazzi" as a mass term (I >>>assume it's not just one paparzzo she's disturbed by)... >> >>that would take "paparazzi" down the route that "media" followed some >>time ago. >> >>the most common treatment of "paparazzi" is not massification, but use >>as a singular count noun (as well as a plural): many many occurrences >>of "a/one paparazzi" as well as "this paparazzi" 'this paparazzo'. >Right, that lone paparazzi eating his panini sandwich. on the trattoria's terrace watching a graffiti being written on the wall opposite him. JSB >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 5 22:23:23 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:23:23 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BqD1F029241@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds." NHL Dallas Stars' Steve Avery (this quote drew an indefinite suspension) "Never go full retard." Robert Downey Jr.'s character in "Tropic Thunder" "I think he has an odd combination of longevity and long-windedness that passes for wisdom in Washington. " Karl Rove on Joe Biden "Rosa sat so Martin could walk. Martin walked, so Obama could run. Obama is running so our children can fly". Source unknown Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 5 22:57:28 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:57:28 -0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation Message-ID: Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 01:35:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:35:00 -0500 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) Message-ID: Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central, in which the life-threatening properties of slang are revealed when violence escalates after a thug, having been insulted by being called "dotnose", begins to shoot up the solemn Oxford English Dictionary Word Induction Ceremony at which "dotnose" is in fact being inducted into the Oxford English Dictionary. Sarah pushes her friend Brian, the coiner of the word, out of harm's way and the bullet meant for him instead hits the pompous British lexicographer representing the OED, but he is saved when the bullet enters the pocket OED he has in his vest pocket (no doubt alluding to all those movies in which shootees are saved from a fatal bullet by their vest-pocket Bible). Quote of the Year candidate, from the end of the show, with sentimental music roiling up in the background: 'My name is Sarah Silverman, and I learned something today. I learned that slang can be dangerous and that sticks and stones *can* break your bones and that words *can* ever [sic] hurt you. Tonight, dotnose became a word in our dictionary. Well, let's not forget that once, so did "holocaust" and "diarrhea". One of them happened. And one of them continues to happen".' P.S. If anyone is wondering, "dotnose" applies to a situation in which someone is blissfully unaware of having been rendered ridiculous by (e.g.) having a dot on the tip of his or her nose. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 01:47:25 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) In-Reply-To: <200812060135.mB5LOsjg030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah > Silverman show on Comedy Central [snip] Briefly recapped (with video clips) on Language Log: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=885 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 04:26:56 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 23:26:56 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812051653.mB5GcMXh013541@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of State > (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding her from > being eligible)? > Please elucidate. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 06:12:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 01:12:01 -0500 Subject: bran(d)-new In-Reply-To: <200812051601.mB5BmM5S030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I imagine that the author used "dispraise" instead of "disrespect" in order to maintain the rhythm of the line. :-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: bran(d)-new > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My latest Word Routes column is on "brand-new" vs. "bran-new": > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1626/ > > Beyond the column's discussion of the eggcornic etymythologies > surrounding "bran-new", antedatings for that spelling may also be of > interest. OED2 has it from 1714 -- here it is from 50 years earlier: > > --- > Charles Cotton, _Scarronides: or, Virgile travestie A mock-poem. Being > the first book of Virgils AEneis in English, burl?sque_ (1664), p. 80 > A lusty Rascal, such a one > As one of you (dispraise to none) > Comes into th' yard, and off o'th' Hedge, > Where all our Clouts, were hung to Bleach; > Whips me a bran-new Flaxen-Smock, > The very best of all my Stock. > --- > > That's from the original edition on EEBO (confirmed by page image). > Subsequent editions that include burlesques of both Books I and IV of > the Aeneid change "bran-new" to "brand-new" in this passage: > > http://www.archive.org/details/scarronidesorvir00cott > http://dev.hil.unb.ca/Texts/EPD/UNB/view-works.cgi?c=cottonch.1552&pos=3 > > However, these later editions include another "bran-new" in a passage > from the Book IV burlesque: > > --- > At last she sallies from the House, > As fine and brisk as Body-Louse. > Shee Hood and Safe-guard had bran new, > The Lace was Yellow, Cloth was Blew. > --- > > Here's another early EEBO hit for "bran-new": > > --- > Walter Scot, _A true history of the several honourable families of the > right honourable name of Scot in the shires of Roxburgh and Selkirk, > and others adjacent_ (1688), p. 26 > Some late start-up bran-new Gentlemen, > That hardly knows from whence their Fathers came. > --- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hau00fah at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 11:07:53 2008 From: hau00fah at GMAIL.COM (Hifa Al-moamir) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:07:53 +0300 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 6 14:00:31 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 06:00:31 -0800 Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought the best part was Officer Jay opining on how slang was destroying the English language. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the danger of slang (courtesy of Sarah Silverman) Did anyone else catch this week's Kangamangus episode of the Sarah Silverman show on Comedy Central, in which the life-threatening properties of slang are revealed when violence escalates after a thug, having been insulted by being called "dotnose", begins to shoot up the solemn Oxford English Dictionary Word Induction Ceremony at which "dotnose" is in fact being inducted into the Oxford English Dictionary. Sarah pushes her friend Brian, the coiner of the word, out of harm's way and the bullet meant for him instead hits the pompous British lexicographer representing the OED, but he is saved when the bullet enters the pocket OED he has in his vest pocket (no doubt alluding to all those movies in which shootees are saved from a fatal bullet by their vest-pocket Bible). Quote of the Year candidate, from the end of the show, with sentimental music roiling up in the background: 'My name is Sarah Silverman, and I learned something today. I learned that slang can be dangerous and that sticks and stones *can* break your bones and that words *can* ever [sic] hurt you. Tonight, dotnose became a word in our dictionary. Well, let's not forget that once, so did "holocaust" and "diarrhea". One of them happened. And one of them continues to happen".' P.S. If anyone is wondering, "dotnose" applies to a situation in which someone is blissfully unaware of having been rendered ridiculous by (e.g.) having a dot on the tip of his or her nose. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 6 15:10:19 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:10:19 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) Message-ID: There's a new cite on the Double-Tongued Dictionary for "the newlywed and the nearly dead" (referring to San Antonio): http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/newlywed_and_the_nearly_dead_1/ I've heard this epithet used in various parts of the U.S. (and Canada too -- in Victoria, B.C.). Here are some early cites (first one is snippet view, so not verifiable): --- 1932? _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ Even in modern times the mystery meal is not uncommon among newly-weds and nearly-deads. http://books.google.com/books?id=xctEAAAAIAAJ [snippet] --- 1940 _Hartford Courant_ 21 Apr. 16/4 At the swanky Royal Hawaiian they like to say that the Halekulani is peopled by newlyweds and nearly-deads. --- 1947 Cleveland Amory _The Proper Bostonians_ 351 Brookline's Longwood Towers, familiarly known as the home of the newly wed and the nearly dead. --- 1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. --- 1952 _New York Times_ 23 Mar. (Book Review) 20/1 Nowadays, during winters among the newlyweds and nearly-deads in St- Augustine, he is seldom reminded of his once "nation-wide famousness." --- 1964 _Western Folklore_ 23(3) July 191 Santa Barbara has long been known by younger people living there as "the home of the newly~wed and nearly dead," a reference to the fact that the city is a favorite for honeymoons and retirements. --- Sometimes also with "overfed(s)": --- 1950? _Youth Leaders Digest_ She summed up her impressions of some of the folks she met with the remark that they were "newlyweds, overfeds or nearly deads." http://books.google.com/books?id=bd4DAAAAMAAJ [snippet] --- 1965 _Newport (R.I.) Daily News_ 5 Oct. "No," she said. "Nobody here but newly~weds, nearly deads and over~feds." [quoting a waitress at the resort village of Tadasausoc, Quebec] --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 6 15:26:45 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/6/2008 10:10 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot >or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- >filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. Respectively, I assume. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 6 16:22:21 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:22:21 -0800 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X Message-ID: noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved on-line). googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): Gulf of Adan 149 Gulf of Arden 1,040 Gulf of Eden 4,280 Gulf of Aden 880,000 reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 6 19:20:07 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:20:07 -0800 Subject: "last October" Message-ID: from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their posts last October. ----- ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time referred to.) i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. "this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others become unsure of what they'd say. in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October 2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that there's a problem in interpretation here. i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sat Dec 6 19:38:49 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:38:49 -0500 Subject: "last October" Message-ID: It seems fairly obvious to me that "last October" refers to the most recent one, that being, in this case, October 2008. Exception: If the author wrote in November, s/he might be expected to say "last month" when meaning the most-recent October. In _that_ situation, "last October" most certainly could be open to interpretation. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Arnold Zwicky" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/6/2008 2:20:07 PM Subject: "last October" >from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: >None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and >two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their >posts last October. >----- >ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known >that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these >calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something >written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most >recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding >calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, >and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time >referred to.) >i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. >"this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will >lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others >become unsure of what they'd say. >in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been >made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" >would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October >2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). >but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that >there's a problem in interpretation here. >i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed >their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. >there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of >this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to >their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* >deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current >deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. >arnold >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 6 19:54:02 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:54:02 -0500 Subject: "last October" In-Reply-To: <05E5D2C50C060E26315D00500A@Seamus> Message-ID: At 2:38 PM -0500 12/6/08, Doug Harris wrote: >It seems fairly obvious to me that "last October" refers to the most >recent one, that being, in this case, October 2008. >Exception: If the author wrote in November, s/he might be expected >to say "last month" when meaning the most-recent October. In _that_ >situation, "last October" most certainly could be open to >interpretation. >dh "in October" might be more the likely choice to refer to Oct. 2008 in either Nov. or Dec. 2008. "last month" seems a bit informal or imprecise in this context, although it certainly would be unambiguous. LH > > > >----- Original message ---------------------------------------- >From: "Arnold Zwicky" >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Received: 12/6/2008 2:20:07 PM >Subject: "last October" > > >>from a NYT editorial, "Rescue the Census", of 4 December: > >>None of those senior managers have ever led a nationwide census, and >>two of them -- the deputy and the decennial director -- assumed their >>posts last October. > >>----- > >>ah, the old problem with "last X" (and "next X"). it's well-known >>that there is variation in the way people use and interpret these >>calendrical expressions. in this particular case, in something >>written in early December, does "last October" refer to the most >>recent October (October 2008) or to the October of the preceding >>calendar year (October 2007)? (the facts about usages are complex, >>and depend in part on the time elapsed between now and the time >>referred to.) > >>i'm not encouraging people to report on the way they use "last" (vs. >>"this") in various situations; i know from experience that this will >>lead to some people disagreeing heatedly with one another while others >>become unsure of what they'd say. > >>in this particular case, the intention of the writer could have been >>made clear by altering the wording ("assumed their posts in October" >>would refer to October 2008, while "assumed their posts in October >>2007" or "in October of last year" would convey the other meaning). >>but of course to re-word, the writer would have had to realize that >>there's a problem in interpretation here. > >>i spent some time trying to figure out just when these people assumed >>their current posts at the Census Bureau -- a frustrating exercise. >>there is a staff list on the bureau's site, but it's from 11 August of >>this year (and anyway it doesn't say when people were appointed to >>their posts). back in August, however, the bureau had an *acting* >>deputy director (Thomas Mesenbourg), so it's likely that the current >>deputy director was indeed appointed in October of this year. > >>arnold > >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 6 20:00:07 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 15:00:07 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <827D7707-42F8-4C5F-9772-83A468C0AD94@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 12/6/2008 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would >appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- >rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? Presumably, and appropriately, "aarrgh-den", on Speak Like a Pirate Day. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Dec 6 23:00:33 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) Message-ID: By searching within the Google book hit for _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ for "May," you can see that it was the issue of 1 May 1932. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" To: Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:10 Subject: newly-wed(s) and nearly-dead(s) > There's a new cite on the Double-Tongued Dictionary for "the newlywed and > the nearly dead" (referring to San Antonio): > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/newlywed_and_the_nearly_dead_1/ > > I've heard this epithet used in various parts of the U.S. (and Canada > too -- > in Victoria, B.C.). Here are some early cites (first one is snippet view, > so > not verifiable): > > --- > 1932? _New Zealand Railways Magazine_ Even in modern times the mystery > meal > is not uncommon among newly-weds and nearly-deads. > http://books.google.com/books?id=xctEAAAAIAAJ [snippet] > --- > 1940 _Hartford Courant_ 21 Apr. 16/4 At the swanky Royal Hawaiian they > like > to say that the Halekulani is peopled by newlyweds and nearly-deads. > --- > 1947 Cleveland Amory _The Proper Bostonians_ 351 Brookline's Longwood > Towers, familiarly known as the home of the newly wed and the nearly dead. > --- > 1949 Ralph Hancock _Fabulous Boulevard_ 149 Los Angeles is either a harlot > or a virgin. ... It's either a God forsaken desert or a garden of Eden -- > filled with newlyweds or nearly-deads. > --- > 1952 _New York Times_ 23 Mar. (Book Review) 20/1 Nowadays, during winters > among the newlyweds and nearly-deads in St- Augustine, he is seldom > reminded > of his once "nation-wide famousness." > --- > 1964 _Western Folklore_ 23(3) July 191 Santa Barbara has long been known > by > younger people living there as "the home of the newly~wed and nearly > dead," > a reference to the fact that the city is a favorite for honeymoons and > retirements. > --- > > Sometimes also with "overfed(s)": > > --- > 1950? _Youth Leaders Digest_ She summed up her impressions of some of the > folks she met with the remark that they were "newlyweds, overfeds or > nearly > deads." > http://books.google.com/books?id=bd4DAAAAMAAJ [snippet] > --- > 1965 _Newport (R.I.) Daily News_ 5 Oct. "No," she said. "Nobody here but > newly~weds, nearly deads and over~feds." [quoting a waitress at the resort > village of Tadasausoc, Quebec] > --- > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 6 23:53:28 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <200812061622.mB6BmaYJ019004@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, bother these non-rhotic speakers and their clumsy attempts at eye-dialect! I once met an Aussie named Ken Fawstuh. For reasons that I'll spare you, I assumed that this was Ken Forster. I later was told by a close Aussie friend, who was familiar with my speech pattern, that his name was in fact Ken _Forester_, IIRC WRT the spelling. Interestingly, my informant was herself unable to produce the rhotic pronunciation and gave me to understand wherein lay my misunderstanding primarily by means of gestures. Amazing, given that we were both some random number of sheets into the the wind at a going-away party. The simpler solution of spelling out his name occurred to neither of us. The Aussie non-rhotic pronunciation of /r/ as /a/, though not as clear as the Southern "ah-ruh," would have sufficed and would certainly have been easier than trying to produce "You need 'nother syllable" by MacGyvering a language of gesture and hoping to have it correctly understood by a drunk at a party. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in > the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at > first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf > of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved > on-line). > > googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): > Gulf of Adan 149 > Gulf of Arden 1,040 > Gulf of Eden 4,280 > Gulf of Aden 880,000 > > reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both > the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), > pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an > attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be > people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might > be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low > vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the > Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated > with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. > > the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would > appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- > rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? > > anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 00:51:58 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:51:58 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812030322.mB2KVsd4018806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, no. The person asking these questions (thanks, Kate!) -- 1. May I ask you a question? 2. May I interrupt? 3. May I speak? is indeed asking a question, interrupting, or speaking, BUT WITHOUT PERMISSION -- which, indeed, is about the only way to initiate the conversation. The asker is in essence applying for permission to open contentful discourse, but this "application" is not the content itself. (I'm sure there's a well-developed theory and analysis of this type of opener, and I may even have studied it, but I can't recall doing so, and this insta-label will do for now.) The addressee, or askee, then has several options: a. granting permission, thus accepting the application and allowing the discourse proper to begin b. denying permission, rejecting the application and bringing the whole conversation to an end (or so he or she hopes) c. other reactions less conformant with the form of the application, such as i. ignoring the asker ii. insulting the asker, e.g., "Go to hell!" iii. saying something like "You already have" or "It's too late to ask", etc. Response type c(iii) takes the question self-referentially, as if it were part of the contentful discourse the asker wants to initiate rather than a formulaic application for discourse. It may be made seriously or jokingly or snarkily, and it may be perceived as any of those, not necessarily the same way as the askee meant it. Mark Mandel On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! > THANK GOD!!! > FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! > That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! > Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. > You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." > > -Wilson > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate > wrote: > > > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" > > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. > > > > Katharine in N. California ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 7 01:50:34 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 20:50:34 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <827D7707-42F8-4C5F-9772-83A468C0AD94@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the Gulf. Joel At 12/6/2008 11:22 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >noticed in an op-ed piece "Grand Theft Nautical" by John S. Burnett in >the 5 December NYT: a reference to piracy in the "Gulf of Arden". at >first i took this to be a simple typo (possibly a cupertino) for "Gulf >of Aden", but it seems to have been intended (and has been preserved >on-line). > >googled references to this body of water (raw webhits): > Gulf of Adan 149 > Gulf of Arden 1,040 > Gulf of Eden 4,280 > Gulf of Aden 880,000 > >reference works in English seem to have the spelling ADEN (for both >the gulf and the Yemeni port city for which the gulf is named), >pronounced (in English) [ed at n] ([e] as in "hay"). EDEN might be an >attempt to represent this English pronunciation (or there might be >people who think it's [id at n], as in the Garden of Eden). ADAN might >be an attempt to approximate the Arabic pronunciation (with a low >vowel in both syllables), or might represent a compromise between the >Arabic and the English pronunciations. ARDEN might have originated >with non-rhotic English speakers, with AR representing [a:]. > >the AR spelling is used by speakers (like Burnett himself) who would >appear to be rhotic; presumably they got it (ultimately) from non- >rhotic speakers. but how do they pronounce ARDEN? > >anyone have actual knowledge of the spellings and pronunciations? > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 7 16:18:39 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 00:18:39 +0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812052257.mB5LOsgi030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: v/l reversal - revelation > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a > raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K > Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban > Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU At 1:10 -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 7 16:48:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:48:15 -0500 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <7d8927de0812070818t1c119273x92b91682b1071406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:18 AM +0800 12/8/08, Randy Alexander wrote: >On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: v/l reversal - revelation >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a >> raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K >> Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban >> Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB > >It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU > >At 1:10 M/n reversals are far from unknown; here's one I came across in print this week. In _The Semantics of Murder_, a novel I've been reading based in part of the life and violent death of formal semanticist Richard Montague, the would-be biographer of the Montague stand-in notes that "it is possible for the same statement to be true and not true at the same time". She attributes this observation to Montague's teacher Alfred Tarski, who, she notes, "was talking about antimonies". It's not made clear what that particular metallic element has to do with violations of Aristotle's law of non-contradiction. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 7 16:54:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:54:08 -0800 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812071618.mB7BlBbe007000@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 7, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic:... n ... m metathesized to m ... n is an often-observed phenomenon in child language in english: my daughter had "aminal" for "animal" and "cimmanon" for "cinnamon" regularly for a period of time, and often spontaneously metathesized n and m in repeating unfamiliar words offered to her. the usual story is that this is part of a tendency to keep coronals to the right of non-coronals. there's a fair amount of literature on the subject. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 7 21:43:57 2008 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:43:57 -0800 Subject: Snowclones Message-ID: A column on one of my favorite topics: http://www.good.is/?p=13907 Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 01:08:03 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:08:03 -0500 Subject: "Can / May I ask you a question?" In-Reply-To: <200812070052.mB6BmaXb019812@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My original post was not intended as a potentially-major contribution to the field deserving of serious discussion. I meant only to note that requests for permission that entail the commission of the act for which permission is being requested, so that refusal of permission is, in some very trivial sense, excluded, are a pet peeve of mine. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:51 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "Can / May I ask you a question?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well, no. The person asking these questions (thanks, Kate!) -- > > 1. May I ask you a question? > 2. May I interrupt? > 3. May I speak? > > is indeed asking a question, interrupting, or speaking, BUT WITHOUT > PERMISSION -- which, indeed, is about the only way to initiate the > conversation. The asker is in essence applying for permission to open > contentful discourse, but this "application" is not the content > itself. (I'm sure there's a well-developed theory and analysis of this > type of opener, and I may even have studied it, but I can't recall > doing so, and this insta-label will do for now.) The addressee, or > askee, then has several options: > > a. granting permission, thus accepting the application and allowing > the discourse proper to begin > b. denying permission, rejecting the application and bringing the > whole conversation to an end (or so he or she hopes) > c. other reactions less conformant with the form of the application, such as > i. ignoring the asker > ii. insulting the asker, e.g., "Go to hell!" > iii. saying something like "You already have" or "It's too late to > ask", etc. > > Response type c(iii) takes the question self-referentially, as if it > were part of the contentful discourse the asker wants to initiate > rather than a formulaic application for discourse. It may be made > seriously or jokingly or snarkily, and it may be perceived as any of > those, not necessarily the same way as the askee meant it. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! >> THANK GOD!!! >> FINALLY, SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!! >> That is my ONLY - got that, y'all? - ONLY point! >> Thank you for further examples of this kind of question. >> You should use the soubriquet, "Katherine The Great." >> >> -Wilson >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:44 AM, Katharine The Grate >> wrote: >> >> > Oh, I get it! It's like: "May I interrupt?" and "May I speak?" >> > As soon as the phrase is said, it's a done deal. >> > >> > Katharine in N. California > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 02:18:28 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:18:28 -0500 Subject: v/l reversal - revelation In-Reply-To: <200812071618.mB7BlBbe007000@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: IMO, this entire string is totally irrevelant.:-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: v/l reversal - revelation > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: v/l reversal - revelation >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Relevation did not pass muster for my spell checker. It is a word ("a >> raising or lifting up according to the Free Dictionary), and has 97K >> Googits, but I think most are l/v reversals for revelation. The Urban >> Dictionary in fact has two entries clearly meaning revelation. BB > > It's not just v/l. Here's one I just caught: dymanic: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZlunw0FHaU > > At 1:10 > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 02:47:14 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:47:14 -0500 Subject: another for the QOTY archive Message-ID: (that's Quote Of The Year, of course) I don't think anyone mentioned this one From _Alex and Me_, by Irene Pepperberg, parrot companion and investigator, and quoted in the Times review of the book about the late bird: "Animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know." LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 8 14:43:30 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:43:30 -0800 Subject: B-word broadens further; "knocking" beers Message-ID: On last night's _Bridezillas_ (We-TV) a 19-year-old bride-to-be at her rehearsal dinner said, with enthusiasm,"I'm gettin' married tomorrow and tonight I'm celebratin', bitch!!" ? So "bitch" can now be used as roughly equivalent to "man" or "dude," so what?? As top investigator for HDAS, I heard a pair of male college students (or "college men" as they used to be called) addressing each other casually as "bitch" a few years back, though too late for notice in HDAS 1.? Noteworthy?now is that the blushing bride was addressing a _guy_!? (Like when gals call gals "guys," but different!) ? At the same dinner. the groom's forty-plus mom advised him to "Go to the kitchen and knock a beer. Knock a beer."? Trail-blazing HDAS has that from 1931 (not to be confused with synonymous "knock back"), but all of its earlier exx. are from AAVE. ? These dramatic events took place in Dec., 2007 among workin'-class white people near Melbourne, Fla. ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 8 15:59:12 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:59:12 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812060427.mB5LOsvE030146@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she is constitutionally ineligible for the job. Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." See: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 0 And follow ups here: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 8 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Mandel > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 10:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 > (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < > Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > Are you scared, then, that she will apparently become Secretary of > > State (despite the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution forbidding > > her from being eligible)? > > > > Please elucidate. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 16:14:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:14:08 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:####] "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' Message-ID: caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for that'. from the transcript at http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt ----- (Brass interviews Connor Foster.) CONNOR FOSTER: Okay. So I shot Happy. I hated that guy. But it was self- defense. BRASS: Self-defense, really? How? CONNOR FOSTER: I myself was trying to defend the girls. They needed me to protect them. They depended me on that. So that's what I done. (whispers) This guy was a monster! ----- the character Connor Foster is drunk in this scene, so i thought that maybe that was all that was going on. but i did find a few further "depend NP on" examples (from people who seem to be native speakers of English): for example, I NEVER DEPENDED HIM ON ANYTHING but being there for me. I was always doing things on my own and never wanted or asked him for a dime. http://www.makeuptalk.com/forums/52044-post8.html [quoting earlier posting by Edward] Hertz doesn't have this policy, and I had to rent an SUV from them as a last moment thing, because they didn't have any minivans to rent. Enterprise has cost me more money because I depended them on a reservation that wasn't fulfilled. http://www.failingenterprise.com/forums/enterprise-rent-car-customers-forum/1681-cash-debit-card-customers-8.html ----- the numbers are small enough, however, that they could just be speech errors. the following "depended them on" example almost surely is an error, with the "them" anticipating a later "them": She longed to protect the family, learning the fighting arts like her sister Esmaralde, but when she requested such, her aunt turned her down immediately; to maintain the free and boundless lifestyle to which the family had become accustomed, everyone had their own job, and the quality of life depended them on them doing it efficiently and without complaint. http://p068.ezboard.com/frideonshootingstarfrm10.showNextMessage?topicID=1.topic ----- but there is a possible route to "depend NP on X", namely via transitivization of "depend" by "dropping the preposition" that marks the object, taking intransitive "depend on NP" to transitive "depend NP" (we've discussed other cases of transitivizing P-drop here in the past). some possible examples: I hope Angie slows down and gets the help she needs. Even with all her money she wants to be mommy and not depend other people and if any of you are mothers you can understand that. I just pray she gets help and let Brad help her. Bless you Angie and love your movies and I for one am a BIG FAN, you ROck GIRL. -- CC http://www.starmagazine.com/news/14670?comment_page=11 Not every song a band makes is a hit, so you really have to put a certain amount of effort in when it comes to finding good music unfortunately (especially WN music). You can't always depend other people to do so. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=179887&page=2 This SPED dept has to be brought down for what they have done to the families who depended them to give them answers. http://schwablearningforumarchive.greatschools.net/thread/17799.html ----- this sort of transitivization would take "depend on NP for X" to "depend NP for X", and there are a fair number of examples for that, among them: Countless plant species depend them for propagation, including many agricultural species that feed humanity. Yet in many areas, natural bees are absent. ... http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/art/artists.htm Russia has grown rich and regained power because Europeans depend them for their energy. The Democratic party has been instrumental in crippling our sources ... http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/06/18/high-oil-prices-caused-by-wall-st-not-opec.htm More than 165 species of animals and insects depend them for survival, including black-footed ferrets, coyotes, bald eagles, swift fox, golden eagles, ... http://www.sfzoo.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=13521&orgkey=1900 ----- now, if you have transitive "depend" you might still remember that "depend" takes an oblique object marked by "on" and so use "on" for the second object of "depend": "depend NP on X" is the result. (this is similar to the story about reversed "substitute" that i outlined some time ago: the result is not exactly a combo, but it does have features from two different sources.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 17:00:13 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:00:13 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: A<85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED2DC@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: This is more often called the Ineligibility Clause, or sometimes the Incompatibility Clause or the Sinecure Clause, because there are other provisions of the Constitution that use the word "emolument," particularly Article I, Section 9, Clause 8, which provides that no person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state. The Ineligibility Clause problem is typically addressed with a so-called "Saxbe fix," see article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxbe_fix, under which the emoluments (salary) are decreased to the amount applicable before the Senator was in office. The Volokh Conspiracy blog, http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 , quotes a Prof. Michael Stokes Paulsen as criticizing this approach: <> I'm not personally too impressed with Paulsen's reasoning. There is also a separate issue whether anyone would have standing to challenge a Clinton appointment, although Paulsen thinks it is at least possible that someone would (which I suppose means, in our current environment, that someone will try to do so). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she is constitutionally ineligible for the job. Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." See: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 0 And follow ups here: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 8 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 17:01:46 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:01:46 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <200812070150.mB6BmaQL019813@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is > referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the > Gulf. > > Joel ?e OED saith: 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the Wanderings, etc. b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, including forest-land. Obs. ... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the shade of melancholly boughes. Mark Mandel From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 17:27:35 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:27:35 -0800 Subject: ADS webpage Message-ID: Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 17:48:22 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 09:48:22 -0800 Subject: [SPAM:####] Fwd: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' Message-ID: i'm re-sending this message because the earlier version apparently didn't through -- probably because i accidentally snarfed up some html code (which i couldn't see). Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 8, 2008 8:14:08 AM PST > To: ADS > Subject: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' > > caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first > aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for > that'. from the transcript at > http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt > > ----- > (Brass interviews Connor Foster.) > > CONNOR FOSTER: Okay. So I shot Happy. I hated that guy. But it was > self- defense. > BRASS: Self-defense, really? How? > CONNOR FOSTER: I myself was trying to defend the girls. They needed > me to protect them. They depended me on that. So that's what I done. > (whispers) This guy was a monster! > ----- > the character Connor Foster is drunk in this scene, so i thought > that maybe that was all that was going on. but i did find a few > further "depend NP on" examples (from people who seem to be native > speakers of English): for example, > I NEVER DEPENDED HIM ON ANYTHING but being there for me. I was > always doing things on my own and never wanted or asked him for a > dime. > http://www.makeuptalk.com/forums/52044-post8.html > [quoting earlier posting by Edward] Hertz doesn't have this > policy, and I had to rent an SUV from them as a last moment thing, > because they didn't have any minivans to rent. Enterprise has cost > me more money because I depended them on a reservation that wasn't > fulfilled. > http://www.failingenterprise.com/forums/enterprise-rent-car-customers-forum/1681-cash-debit-card-customers-8.html > ----- > the numbers are small enough, however, that they could just be > speech errors. the following "depended them on" example almost > surely is an error, with the "them" anticipating a later "them": > She longed to protect the family, learning the fighting arts like > her sister Esmaralde, but when she requested such, her aunt turned > her down immediately; to maintain the free and boundless lifestyle > to which the family had become accustomed, everyone had their own > job, and the quality of life depended them on them doing it > efficiently and without complaint. > http://p068.ezboard.com/frideonshootingstarfrm10.showNextMessage?topicID=1.topic > ----- > but there is a possible route to "depend NP on X", namely via > transitivization of "depend" by "dropping the preposition" that > marks the object, taking intransitive "depend on NP" to transitive > "depend NP" (we've discussed other cases of transitivizing P-drop > here in the past). some possible examples: > I hope Angie slows down and gets the help she needs. Even with all > her money she wants to be mommy and not depend other people and if > any of you are mothers you can understand that. I just pray she gets > help and let Brad help her. Bless you Angie and love your movies and > I for one am a BIG FAN, you ROck GIRL. > > http://www.starmagazine.com/news/14670?comment_page=11 > Not every song a band makes is a hit, so you really have to put a > certain amount of effort in when it comes to finding good music > unfortunately (especially WN music). You can't always depend other > people to do so. > http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=179887&page=2 > This SPED dept has to be brought down for what they have done to > the families who depended them to give them answers. > http://schwablearningforumarchive.greatschools.net/thread/17799.html > ----- > this sort of transitivization would take "depend on NP for X" to > "depend NP for X", and there are a fair number of examples for that, > among them: > Countless plant species depend them for propagation, including many > agricultural species that feed humanity. Yet in many areas, natural > bees are absent. ... > http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/art/artists.htm > Russia has grown rich and regained power because Europeans depend > them for their energy. The Democratic party has been instrumental in > crippling our sources ... > http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/06/18/high-oil-prices-caused-by-wall-st-not-opec.htm > More than 165 species of animals and insects depend them for > survival, including black-footed ferrets, coyotes, bald eagles, > swift fox, golden eagles, ... > http://www.sfzoo.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=13521&orgkey=1900 > ----- > now, if you have transitive "depend" you might still remember that > "depend" takes an oblique object marked by "on" and so use "on" for > the second object of "depend": "depend NP on X" is the result. > (this is similar to the story about reversed "substitute" that i > outlined some time ago: the result is not exactly a combo, but it > does have features from two different sources.) > arnold > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 8 17:48:40 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:48:40 -0500 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: It's up for me right now. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 09:27:35AM -0800, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 8 17:53:43 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:53:43 -0000 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. It was the LISTSERV search that failed for me, with an error report saying that the server probably wasn't started, not the ADS site, which worked for me a few moments ago. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 8 17:49:52 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:49:52 -0500 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <0AF60DCB-143E-462E-955D-5D761F05D317@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Strange. It works for me, though I'll try it on a bunch more computers and see if I can duplicate the problem. If anyone else has the problem, please email directly with this information: What kind of error are you getting? What URL are you using? Can you send a screenshot? Are you on Mac or PC? What browser are you using? Do you have "anti-phishing" enabled or disabled? Do you you use an ad-blocker? What network are you on? Grant On Dec 8, 2008, at 12:27, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > Michael Quinion reported a few days ago that he couldn't open the ADS > webpage. i just tried to, and similarly failed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 8 18:27:36 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:27:36 -0800 Subject: ADS webpage In-Reply-To: <200812081800.mB8BnO2A025131@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: ADS webpage > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Strange. It works for me, though I'll try it on a bunch more computers > and see if I can duplicate the problem. well, now it works for me too. earlier, the server wasn't responding, so my attempted linking timed out. now that i can get to the site, i see that Mark Mandel's recent follow- up on the "pirates in the Gulf of X" thread looks fine in the archives (though it came to me in an unreadable encoding). i also see that my "depend NP on X" posting is in the archives, but tagged as [SPAM:####], which would explain why i myself didn't get a copy of it -- or of the slightly improved re-sent version that i submitted a little while ago. i'm guessing that the spam filter tagged these postings as bad, bad spam because of the many links in them; the Language Log spam filter just hates comments that have URIs in them "in the clear", rather than in html tags. what i don't know is how many/few people got the postings. i might be able to fix the problem by removing "html://" from the links and posting that version. can some savvy person tell me if that would be likely to work? (if it does, then i'd like to have the previous versions deleted from the archives.) arnold, vexed ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 18:48:08 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:48:08 -0500 Subject: [SPAM:####] Fwd: "depend NP on X" 'depend on NP for X' In-Reply-To: <200812081748.mB8Brc20025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I saw it earlier. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > i'm re-sending this message because the earlier version apparently > didn't through -- probably because i accidentally snarfed up some html > code (which i couldn't see). > ... > > > > caught on CSI: Crime Scene Investigation ("Ending Happy", first > > aired 4/26/07): "They depended me on that" 'They depended on me for > > that'. from the transcript at > > http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-721.txt ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 18:53:41 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:53:41 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, bother. Apparently my posting this morning was encoded. Apparently even a Thorn in jest (in "*Th*e OED") is too much for this listserver. I really wish we could fix that. I was replying to Joel Berson's comment >>> I am reminded that in "As You Like It" the Forest of Arden is referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the Gulf. <<< ---- The* OED saith: 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the Wanderings, etc. b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, including forest-land. Obs. ... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the shade of melancholly boughes. Mark Mandel "Oh, bother," said the Borg, "we've assimilated Pooh." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 8 18:55:49 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:55:49 -0500 Subject: pirates in the Gulf of X In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812080901l15343c27x52ae00a891e85ba6@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 12:01 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64On Sat, Dec 6, >2008 at 8:50 PM, Joel S. Berson > > referred to (a half-dozen times) as a desert. Must have been near the >?[????????[????e OED saith: > > 1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness: a. >now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with >but scanty growth of herbage;{em}e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the >Wanderings, etc. > > b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, >including forest-land. Obs. >... 1600 SHAKES. A.Y.L. II. vii. 110 In this desert inaccessible, Vnder the >shade of melancholly boughes. Yes, thank you Mark, for pointing out to me what I already knew. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Mon Dec 8 20:30:37 2008 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael Covarrubias) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:30:37 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <200812081853.mB8C1F5R025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority house: "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:02:45 2008 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:02:45 -0600 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <493D83ED.9000904@purdue.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps an allusion to Slim Pickens' final scene in Dr. Strangelove? On 12/8/08 2:30 PM, "Michael Covarrubias" wrote: > loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > house: > > > "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 8 21:20:11 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:20:11 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? In-Reply-To: <493D83ED.9000904@purdue.edu> Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: >loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority >house: > >"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 8 21:32:26 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:32:26 -0500 Subject: faced with a problem mixed with bomb dropping? Message-ID: OT: I often wonder who young female cell-phoniacs are talking _to_ -- since none I see ever seem to be _listening_. dh >At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: >>loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority >>house: >> >>"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." >> >Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative >passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was >distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:24:16 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:24:16 -0500 Subject: PREP-Drop: "conceive" v. "conceive of" Message-ID: The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." IMO, this should be "... _conceived of_ ..." But who am I to second-guess the OED? OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44?12 "FREEPORT, ME?After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:40:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:40:44 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812081700.mB8C1FvD025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Damn! A brother just can't catch a break! :-) -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is more often called the Ineligibility Clause, or sometimes > the Incompatibility Clause or the Sinecure Clause, because there are > other provisions of the Constitution that use the word "emolument," > particularly Article I, Section 9, Clause 8, which provides that no > person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, > shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, > emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, > prince, or foreign state. > > The Ineligibility Clause problem is typically addressed with a > so-called "Saxbe fix," see article on Wikipedia, > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxbe_fix, under which the emoluments > (salary) are decreased to the amount applicable before the Senator was > in office. The Volokh Conspiracy blog, > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 > , quotes a Prof. Michael Stokes Paulsen as criticizing this approach: > > < Lloyd. Couldn't Congress pass a repealing statute, or President Bush (or > even President Obama) rescind the executive order, selectively, as to > Hillary and make everybody happy? Nope: The clause forbids the > appointment of someone to an office the emoluments whereof "shall have > been encreased." A "fix" can rescind the salary, but it cannot repeal > historical events. The emoluments of the office had been increased. The > rule specified in the text still controls. > > Unless one views the Constitution's rules as rules that may be dispensed > with when inconvenient; or as not really stating rules at all (but > "standards" or "principles" to be viewed at more-convenient levels of > generality); or as not applicable where a lawsuit might not be brought; > or as not applicable to Democratic administrations, then the plain > linguistic meaning of this chunk of constitutional text forbids the > appointment of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State. I wouldn't bet on > this actually preventing the appointment, however. It didn't stop Lloyd > Bentsen from becoming Secretary of State. But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > wealth. But we don't know what he thinks about provisions of the > Constitution that do not need to be invented, but are actually there in > the document. > > There is one last chance for Hillary. The Emoluments Clause provides > that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time > for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule of the Emoluments Clause > does not apply to female U.S. Senators. It's an out-there argument, of > course (Hillary and I both went to Yale Law School). But I think I would > prefer even this (unpersuasive) pronoun pounce to the Saxbe Fix, or to > ignoring the text of the Constitution entirely.>> > > > I'm not personally too impressed with Paulsen's reasoning. > There is also a separate issue whether anyone would have standing to > challenge a Clinton appointment, although Paulsen thinks it is at least > possible that someone would (which I suppose means, in our current > environment, that someone will try to do so). > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 2008 to 4 Dec 2008 (#2008-339) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > The emoluments clause says (loosely) that a member of the Congress > cannot move to a job whose pay has increased while they were in the > Congress, at least during the period of their term. The pay of the > Secretary of State increased while Hillary was a senator, therefore she > is constitutionally ineligible for the job. > > Emoluments Clause of Article I, section 6 provides "No Senator or > Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be > appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, > which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been > encreased during such time." > > See: > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122754891 > 0 > > And follow ups here: > http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_23-2008_11_29.shtml#122756270 > 8 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 8 22:54:34 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:54:34 EST Subject: Constitutional issues Message-ID: It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > wealth. > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea at UMICH.EDU Mon Dec 8 23:15:29 2008 From: aandrea at UMICH.EDU (Andrea Morrow) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:15:29 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812082254.mB8K9SG7023723@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you look at the context of the snipped text, it's part of a quotation the poster (John Baker) says is from Michael Stokes Paulsen, who was writing on the Volokh Conspiracy blog. John actually says, at the end of the quotation, that he doesn't find Paulsen's reasoning compelling. In addition, John is responding to an ongoing discussion that evolved when Mark Mandel asked for elucidation of a comment about this obscure constitutional provision... So maybe it would be out of order to say that he's out of order? Andrea On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: Constitutional issues > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough > speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in > presenting a > political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue > involving > an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the > United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that > he is > out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the > most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I > think > he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's > salary, > without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > > But it does make an > > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about taking > > the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks the > > Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial redistribution of > > wealth. > > > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and > favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ( > http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 8 23:21:24 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:21:24 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Constitutional issues It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > But it does make an > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about > taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks > the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial > redistribution of wealth. > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 00:23:14 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:23:14 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion Message-ID: My wife: "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." Your faithful correspondent: "_Recycling_ industry." My wife: "Yes. They're having real problems." [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having its trash disposed of.] Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y weather_ list. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 01:01:28 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:01:28 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children Message-ID: Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: "the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. Unfair! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:14:51 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:14:51 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion In-Reply-To: <200812090023.mB8Nd05I025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've always considered those to be optional variants: whether or not to syllabify the /l/. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > My wife: > > "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." > > Your faithful correspondent: > > "_Recycling_ industry." > > My wife: > > "Yes. They're having real problems." > > [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* > $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, > will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having > its trash disposed of.] > > > > Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y > weather_ list. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 01:19:02 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:19:02 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090101.mB8Nd07a025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My wife & I noticed that difference and decided that it was valid, because the female-specific sense of "cow" is current in everyday English while the male-specific sense of "dog" is not. Or, at least, cow[female] is much better known than dog[male] Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, > asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals > could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his > solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. > > Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is > gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for > male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in > the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. > > But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic > bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it > should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: > "the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. > > Unfair! > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:22:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:22:00 -0500 Subject: PREP-Drop: "conceive" v. "conceive of" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812081424w36f449bflcc42763c84350080@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: > >" ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and >treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." > > >IMO, this should be > >"... _conceived of_ ..." > >But who am I to second-guess the OED? > > >OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: > >"COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD > >"MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 > >"FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having >children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." > Well, I do know a number of couples who find it difficult to conceive of having children... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 01:40:51 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:40:51 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090101.mB911bKo007699@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8:01 PM -0500 12/8/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, >asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals >could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his >solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. > >Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is >gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for >male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in >the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. > >But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic >bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it >should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: >"the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. > >Unfair! >Joel > Shortz could be seen as making an (implicit) empirical claim about the *primar* sense of each lexical item, while (implicitly) allowing that both are indeed polysemous. In that sense, I'd say it's a defensible claim: the primary sense (statistically and psychologically) of "dog", as reflected in most if not all dictionaries, is non-gender-specific. Lassie would normally (at least by non-dog-breeders) be called an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) dog, not an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) bitch (ignoring the fact that the actors who have played her were in fact non-bitch doggies), and if I said I gave my kids a dog for Christmas, you wouldn't be on safe ground to infer it was a male one. For me, the 'male canis familiaris' sense only arises (outside of lexical semantics discussions) when there's a direct opposition with 'bitch'. The "cow" case is trickier, but arguably the primary sense here is the one opposed to "bull", with gender (or sex) built in. As Lyons put it (I may be paraphrasing here), "a bitch is a female dog" is a straightforward identification claim or definition, while "a bull is a male cow" is a metalinguistic claim (i.e. bulls are the male counterparts of cows). That being said, when I grew up in NYC, "cow" was a general non-gender-specific term for bovines. But what did *we* did know from cows? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:06:15 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:06:15 -0500 Subject: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion In-Reply-To: <200812090115.mB8KVMho025131@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard that about you, Mark. But I didn't want to believe it. Well, I don't know what else I can say. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Failure to fail to apply @-Insertion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've always considered those to be optional variants: whether or not to > syllabify the /l/. > > Mark Mandel > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> My wife: >> >> "... hitting the _re-cycle-ing_ industry really hard." >> >> Your faithful correspondent: >> >> "_Recycling_ industry." >> >> My wife: >> >> "Yes. They're having real problems." >> >> [an interesting consequence noted locally: Harvard, formerly *paid* >> $10.00/ton by recyclers for the privilege of disposing of its trash, >> will now be *paying* re-cyclers $10.00/ton for the privilege of having >> its trash disposed of.] >> >> >> >> Oh, well. Another addition to my already overly-extensive _Winter-y >> weather_ list. >> >> -Wilson >> >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:13:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:13:33 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812082321.mB8C1FSn025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, after all. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which > expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for the > linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the > office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that > Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she > became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the > Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative > shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any > civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have > been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during > such time." Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in > the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton > appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested > in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of > lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a > tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will > somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > >> But it does make an >> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >> redistribution of wealth. >> > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 02:21:26 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:21:26 -0700 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812011332w2e287f0dpbf033ba879e91634@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:32:48PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously > intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. > They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such > constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone > younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, such > strings are easily generated and easily understood. > Well, I'm well over thirty )-: But 'the listening-to' doesn't strike me as so strange, probably from the too oft repeated listening-to of my 20-something children. Actually, "the lighting-up of the Hanukkah candles" sounds equally acceptable. So does "the dancing-around of the solsticial bonfire".... Scott Swanson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 9 02:38:30 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:38:30 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: A<82745f630812081813l722fc37t1415432e2d0ffd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The linguistic issue is the meaning of the constitutional clause: "No Senator . . . shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which . . . the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time." If the emoluments (compensation) was increased, but then there is a rollback just for the Senator, were the emoluments "encreased"? If so, then Hillary cannot accept the office of Secretary of State. That's the position alleged by some, including the fellow I quoted. On the other hand, I tend to think that there is not really an "encrease" if the compensation actually received by the Senator has not gone up, notwithstanding that there may have been an increase for others who hold that office. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:14 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Constitutional issues Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, after all. -Wilson All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, > which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for > the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation > of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period > that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed > when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning > of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or > Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be > appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United > States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall > have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans > have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current > implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just > interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some > kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot > interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States > Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > >> But it does make an >> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >> redistribution of wealth. >> > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 02:40:11 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:40:11 -0700 Subject: more back-formed shopping In-Reply-To: <20081204061114.FA5FC190@resin11.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 06:11:14AM -0800, James A. Landau wrote: > Somewhat of a stretch, but there is the term "store-bought" (dated by MWCD10 as 1905) which suggests (but does not prove) the existence of a term "to store-buy" with a sense somewhat related to the ones discussed on this thread. > Maybe this has been chewed over several times on this list, but I recall growing up that "store-bought" was used somewhat apologetically to indicate an inferior quality (as, eg. store-bought ice-cream vs. the real hand-churned stuff) or on the other hand to praise the quality of something that couldn't be better-produced at home (She was wearing a store-bought dress!). There was always the dichotomy of "on-the-farm" vs. "at-the-store" and 'to store-buy' would not have been a term anyone would understand. Scott Swanson Pendroy, Montana ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:56:59 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:56:59 EST Subject: Constitutional issues Message-ID: My apologies. I should have read the thread more closely. The linguistic question is real enough, but it is so trivial that I hope I will be forgiven for thinking that somebody was just using it as an excuse for a political rant on ADS-L. As it turns out, someone was just using it as an excuse for a political rant somewhere other than on ADS-L. I agree that it is not a political issue, but the ranter made it out to be something other than trivial in order to find occasion for a ludicrous political comment. The alleged Constitutional issue was settled decades (at least) ago. In a message dated 12/8/08 6:21:52 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ? ? ? ? Um, no.? I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, which > expresses views with which I do not agree.? I did so only for the > linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation of the > office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period that > Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed when she > became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning of the > Eligibility Clause?? That clause provides, "No Senator or Representative > shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any > civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have > been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during > such time."? Both Democrats and Republicans have used the Saxbe fix in > the past, and while it has current implications for a Clinton > appointment, I don't consider it to be an intrinsically partisan issue. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of RonButters at AOL.COM > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Constitutional issues > > It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly > enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just interested > in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some kind of > lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot interpretation of a > tiny 18th century corner of the United States Constitution. Will > somebody in authority please tell him that he is out of order? > > Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of > the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the > nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his > Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. > > In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > > But it does make an > > interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about > > taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks > > the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial > > redistribution of wealth. > > > > > > > ************** > Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > in one place.? Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:58:04 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:58:04 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0_[ADS-L]_faced_with__a_problem=A0?= mixed with bomb dropping? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/8/08 3:30:57 PM, mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU writes: > loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > house: > > > "...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 02:59:37 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:59:37 EST Subject: faced with a problem=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0mixed?= with bomb dropping? Message-ID: If you party enough, you are likely to say anything. In a message dated 12/8/08 4:20:33 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 3:30 PM -0500 12/8/08, Michael Covarrubias wrote: > >loud girl into her cellphone complaining about a problem in her sorority > >house: > > > >"...So that's the bomb I've been dropped with." > > > Well, it's not easy to combine relativization with adversative > passive; she was doing the best she could (especially since she was > distracted by a loud cellphone user, even if it was herself). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 03:15:47 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:15:47 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <20081209022126.GB8307@localhost> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: >So does "the dancing-around of the >solsticial bonfire".... Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 03:23:14 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:23:14 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >Or, at least, cow[female] is much >better known than dog[male] That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) Joel At 12/8/2008 08:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 8:01 PM -0500 12/8/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>Will Shortz's "Animal Tracks" puzzle in the NYTimes Sunday, Nov. 30, >>asked how many names of male, female, and young four-footed animals >>could be traced in the given five-by-five letter grid. I think his >>solution (yesterday, Dec. 7) is unfair. >> >>Shortz allowed "cow", presumably because one definition is >>gender-specific (the female bovine) and because there are names for >>male bovines. He explicitly disallowed "dog" (which can be traced in >>the grid), presumably because the definition of dog is not gender-specific. >> >>But one definition of "cow" is not gender-specific: "a domestic >>bovine animal, whether a steer, bull, cow, or calf", so thereby it >>should be excluded. And one definition of "dog" is gender-specific: >>"the male of a canine", so thereby it should be permitted. >> >>Unfair! >>Joel >Shortz could be seen as making an (implicit) empirical claim about >the *primar* sense of each lexical item, while (implicitly) allowing >that both are indeed polysemous. In that sense, I'd say it's a >defensible claim: the primary sense (statistically and >psychologically) of "dog", as reflected in most if not all >dictionaries, is non-gender-specific. Lassie would normally (at >least by non-dog-breeders) be called an intelligent (friendly, >attractive,...) dog, not an intelligent (friendly, attractive,...) >bitch (ignoring the fact that the actors who have played her were in >fact non-bitch doggies), and if I said I gave my kids a dog for >Christmas, you wouldn't be on safe ground to infer it was a male one. >For me, the 'male canis familiaris' sense only arises (outside of >lexical semantics discussions) when there's a direct opposition with >'bitch'. The "cow" case is trickier, but arguably the primary sense >here is the one opposed to "bull", with gender (or sex) built in. As >Lyons put it (I may be paraphrasing here), "a bitch is a female dog" >is a straightforward identification claim or definition, while "a >bull is a male cow" is a metalinguistic claim (i.e. bulls are the >male counterparts of cows). That being said, when I grew up in NYC, >"cow" was a general non-gender-specific term for bovines. But what >did *we* did know from cows? > >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From harview at MONTANA.COM Tue Dec 9 04:04:38 2008 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:04:38 -0700 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812090316.mB93FuXn006897@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:15:47PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: >> So does "the dancing-around of the >> solsticial bonfire".... > > Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) > If you dance fast enough, it really is hard to tell.... Okay, "around-dancing". Bad example, just seasonally overwhelmed. Scott Swanson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 04:11:48 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:11:48 -0500 Subject: Constitutional issues In-Reply-To: <200812090238.mB8C1FVf025764@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then, just as I'd feared, The Bell Curve *is* correct! Well, I've known it all along. I just didn't want to have to admit it. But, right is right. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The linguistic issue is the meaning of the constitutional > clause: "No Senator . . . shall, during the Time for which he was > elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the > United States, which . . . the Emoluments whereof shall have been > encreased during such time." If the emoluments (compensation) was > increased, but then there is a rollback just for the Senator, were the > emoluments "encreased"? If so, then Hillary cannot accept the office of > Secretary of State. That's the position alleged by some, including the > fellow I quoted. On the other hand, I tend to think that there is not > really an "encrease" if the compensation actually received by the > Senator has not gone up, notwithstanding that there may have been an > increase for others who hold that office. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Constitutional issues > > Wherein lies the linguistic issue? Have I failed to comprehend something > glaringly obvious to others? Well, perhaps The Bell Curve is correct, > after all. > > -Wilson > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Baker, John wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: Constitutional issues >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Um, no. I posted, but did not write, the quoted material, >> which expresses views with which I do not agree. I did so only for >> the linguistic issue - should a Saxbe fix (in which the compensation >> of the office of Secretary of State is rolled back, during the period >> that Hillary Clinton holds that office, to the level that prevailed >> when she became a Senator) be considered consistent with the meaning >> of the Eligibility Clause? That clause provides, "No Senator or >> Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be >> appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United >> States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall > >> have been encreased during such time." Both Democrats and Republicans > >> have used the Saxbe fix in the past, and while it has current >> implications for a Clinton appointment, I don't consider it to be an > intrinsically partisan issue. >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:55 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Constitutional issues >> >> It seems pretty clear from this snip that the author (who tellingly >> enough speaks of himself with the royal "we") is really just >> interested in presenting a political rant to ADS-L disguised as some >> kind of lingjuistic issue involving an eccentric and moot >> interpretation of a tiny 18th century corner of the United States >> Constitution. Will somebody in authority please tell him that he is > out of order? >> >> Barak Obama, by the way, is a professor of Constutional Law at one of >> the most respected (and relatively conservative) law schools in the >> nation. I think he can probably figure out what the deal is on his >> Secretary of State's salary, without help from a royalist. >> >> In a message dated 12/8/08 12:00:35 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: >> >> >>> But it does make an >>> interesting first test of how serious Barack Obama will be about >>> taking the Constitution's actual words seriously. We know he thinks >>> the Constitution should be viewed as authorizing judicial >>> redistribution of wealth. >>> >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites > >> in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& >> icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 05:41:06 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:41:06 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 2008 to 8 Dec 2008 (#2008-343) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/9/2008 12:09:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: The Emoluments Clause provides that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule of the Emoluments Clause does not apply to female U.S. Senators. Much as I dislike Hillary, I can't imagine anyone will get away with trying to apply that logic. I learned in (approx.) 3rd grade that a generalized "he" should - be taken to mean "he or she." Rosemarie First things first - but not necessarily in that order! **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 13:11:58 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:11:58 -0500 Subject: glide path Message-ID: Today's Word Routes column is about the term "glide path", which Pres.-Elect Obama has used metaphorically twice in the space of a week (re the economy and the Iraq War): http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1628/ It's been used figuratively (mostly in economic usage) at least since 1973, but this extension is not yet in OED or other dictionaries I checked. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 14:02:19 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:02:19 -0500 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <20081209040438.GD8307@localhost> Message-ID: At 12/8/2008 11:04 PM, Scott wrote: >On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:15:47PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 12/8/2008 09:21 PM, Scott wrote: > >> So does "the dancing-around of the > >> solsticial bonfire".... > > > > Gee -- who did the dancing, the people around it or the bonfire? :-) > > > >If you dance fast enough, it really is hard to tell.... > >Okay, "around-dancing". Bad example, just seasonally overwhelmed. I was watching the "of" -- that is, "the dancing-around of the solsticial bonfire" revealed the bonfire dancing, while "the dancing-around the solsticial bonfire" pictured people prancing. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:42:49 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:42:49 -0500 Subject: sweat equity (1950) Message-ID: * sweat equity (OED2 1973, MWCD11 1966) 1950 _Hartford Courant_ 30 Apr. B1/3 Here in Connecticut, a number of persons are putting up homes chiefly by their own "sweat equity." The OED2 def is too restrictive: "an interest in a property earned by a tenant who contributes his labour to its upkeep or renovation". That was the original sense, but it's now often extended to work in return for other types of ownership (e.g., ownership shares of a company), or more generally to hard work in the service of a particular goal. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:54:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:54:02 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: > > " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and > treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." > > IMO, this should be > > "... _conceived of_ ..." > > But who am I to second-guess the OED? the OED's entry for "conceive" has cites for both plain transitive "conceive" and of intransitive "conceive of" in the sense 'think of'. actually, in several senses 'think of': [7b] To form or evolve the idea of (any creation of skill or genius). 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 4 The mind which conceived the Republic. ("conceive of" would also be possible here for me); [8] To form a mental representation or idea of; to form or have a conception or notion of; to think of, imagine. 1888 Jewish Q. Rev. I. 55 The Rabbis could not conceive such a monstrosity as atheistic orthodoxy. (again, "conceive of" is possible for me, indeed much preferable); [8d] intr. to conceive of: To form or have a conception of, think of, imagine. [the transitive uses are earlier than these intransitive uses] 1871 RUSKIN Munera P. Pref. (1880) 10 He cannot conceive of any quality of essential badness or goodness existing in pictures. turning now to google, a search on {"conceive it as"} yields a big pile of examples, most of which seem to be in writing on philosophy or religion. for example, from Ariew, Grene, & Grene in Descartes and His Contemporaries, in a passage speculating about what Hobbes would have said: If you conceive it as extended, you conceive it as a body, and you grant ... If you conceive it as nonextended, you conceive a thing which has a power ... a few more cites, from diverse sources: Sheila: I think we should conceive it as A Man and a Woman have Dinner with Andre??cause then you have three characters, so that?s interesting. canopycanopycanopy.com/1/a_logical_love_story Some Semantic Web authors conceive it as a hierarchy of "semantic interpretations" (a meta-ontology provides "semantics" to the bottom ontologies). users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/skywritings/index.php?/archives/23-The- Syntactic-Web.html "People conceive it as very glamorous," says Brown. "But day to day, it can be fairly ordinary." Before moving to the academy, she worked as a freelance ... www.guardian.co.uk/money/2004/apr/05/careers.jobsadvice apparently, transitive "conceive" is still alive and kicking, and varies with intransitive "conceive of" in a number of contexts. historically, this is preposition addition, and i would have expected handbooks to complain about the prepositional version (on Omit Needless Words grounds) -- or perhaps to complain about the transitive version (on Include All Necessary Words grounds) -- but so far as i can tell, none of the handbooks even mention the alternation. Wilson Gray continued: > OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: > > "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD > > "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 > > "FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having > children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." definitely preposition addition. a few more examples: Thus, because the petitioner relied on the respondent's actions in agreeing to conceive of a child through artificial insemination, ... lawprofessors.typepad.com/lgbtlaw/2007/10/same-sex-partne.html ... she may have the satisfaction of knowing that she can make it possible for some lucky couple to conceive of a child. ... www.jhunewsletter.com/news/2002/03/29/Features/The-Process.Behind.Egg.Donation-2248251.shtml Mae will joke that the only way she could have conceived of a child is immaculately. The desperate Maggie is subject to a miserable second virginity, ... www.sparknotes.com/drama/cat/canalysis.html these strike me as very odd. but they're certainly out there. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 16:57:46 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 08:57:46 -0800 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor Message-ID: a Dutch-German difference? Begin forwarded message: > From: Victor Steinbok > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: interesting metaphor > > From a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > Quote of the Day > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right ?chocolate leg? issue: "I > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it?s > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In > Holland we call it my ?chocolate leg? but positive thinking is the > key for me.? > OK, here's one source. > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > Catchword for ?chocolate leg? > > Catchword: chocolate leg > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > Part of Speech: n. > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > Quotation: ?There?s even something like a ?dominant leg?! You > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. > Try. You?d be amazed. There?s a phrase for that in German: > ?Schokoladenbein.?? ?Chocolate leg? I?m going to assume that > something was lost in the translation here.? > Article or Document Title: > ?Re: Left-orium? (URL) > Author: > John C. > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > Date of Publication: > Dec. 29, 2002 > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > Dictionary definition of ?chocolate foot? > chocolate foot > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or > kicking; one?s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & > Recreation > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein > ?favored leg? (literally ?chocolate leg?). A similar German word is > Schokoladenseite ?attractive side? (literally ?chocolate side?). > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine?s > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your > pedals horizontal, with your ?chocolate foot? (your strongest foot) > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) ?Re: > Riding in Arizona?: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) > ?Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck?: I turned inside a > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) ?Re: Left-orium?: ?There?s even > something like a ?dominant leg?! You automatically try to take off > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You?d be amazed. There?s a > phrase for that in German: ?Schokoladenbein.?? ?Chocolate leg? I?m > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.? > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn?s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which > foot is your ?chocolate foot,? as Hans ?No Way? Rey calls it. Your > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep > forward when standing on the petals. > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:05:00 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:05:00 -0800 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" Message-ID: tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. (stories all over the place. the ones Ben Zimmer pointed me to are http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_re_us/calling_in_gay http://www.daywithoutagay.org/ ) "A Day Without a Gay" is based on "A Day Without a Mexican" (a 2004 film directed by Sergio Arau), and has the additional virtue of rhyming. "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". don't know whether i'll be in a position to call in gay tomorrow: i might be serving on a jury for the Santa Clara County Superior Court. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:26:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:26:52 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091654.mB9BnJPD028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And then there's "approve (of)? That's another one with people appear to have different intuitions or different perceptions as to what constitutes the "correct" form in a variety of contexts.. For example, the common, if not standard, political-ad tag line: "I'm John Doe and I _approve_ this message" Should be, IMO: "... _approve of_ this message." OTOH, I've just flashed on the possibility that I've been mishearing this bromide and it is actually: "I'm John Doe and I _approved_ this message." In that case, I have only the very minor quibble that *perhaps* the line would be "better" in the form: "... I _have approved_ this message." Nevertheless, I still find that the form: "... _(have) approved of_ this image" is, somewhat like Jesus, still all right with me. However, the "of"-less version of either the Perfect or the Present Perfect won't send me fleeing from the room in tears, in any case. But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the Perfect. But that's merely the impression that I've gotten from casual reading. I leave the ultimate decision to those with greater expertise. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 5:24 PM -0500 12/8/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> The OED, as quoted by Mark M.: >> >> " ... now _conceived_ as a desolate, barren region, waterless and >> treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage ..." >> >> IMO, this should be >> >> "... _conceived of_ ..." >> >> But who am I to second-guess the OED? > > the OED's entry for "conceive" has cites for both plain transitive > "conceive" and of intransitive "conceive of" in the sense 'think of'. > actually, in several senses 'think of': > > [7b] To form or evolve the idea of (any creation of skill or > genius). > > 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 4 The mind which conceived the Republic. > > ("conceive of" would also be possible here for me); > > [8] To form a mental representation or idea of; to form or have a > conception or notion of; to think of, imagine. > > 1888 Jewish Q. Rev. I. 55 The Rabbis could not conceive such a > monstrosity as atheistic orthodoxy. > > (again, "conceive of" is possible for me, indeed much preferable); > > [8d] intr. to conceive of: To form or have a conception of, think > of, imagine. [the transitive uses are earlier than these intransitive > uses] > > 1871 RUSKIN Munera P. Pref. (1880) 10 He cannot conceive of any > quality of essential badness or goodness existing in pictures. > > turning now to google, a search on {"conceive it as"} yields a big > pile of examples, most of which seem to be in writing on philosophy or > religion. for example, from Ariew, Grene, & Grene in Descartes and > His Contemporaries, in a passage speculating about what Hobbes would > have said: > > If you conceive it as extended, you conceive it as a body, and you > grant ... If you conceive it as nonextended, you conceive a thing > which has a power ... > > a few more cites, from diverse sources: > > Sheila: I think we should conceive it as A Man and a Woman have > Dinner with Andre?'cause then you have three characters, so that's > interesting. > canopycanopycanopy.com/1/a_logical_love_story > > Some Semantic Web authors conceive it as a hierarchy of "semantic > interpretations" (a meta-ontology provides "semantics" to the bottom > ontologies). > users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/skywritings/index.php?/archives/23-The- > Syntactic-Web.html > > "People conceive it as very glamorous," says Brown. "But day to > day, it can be fairly ordinary." Before moving to the academy, she > worked as a freelance ... > www.guardian.co.uk/money/2004/apr/05/careers.jobsadvice > > apparently, transitive "conceive" is still alive and kicking, and > varies with intransitive "conceive of" in a number of contexts. > historically, this is preposition addition, and i would have expected > handbooks to complain about the prepositional version (on Omit > Needless Words grounds) -- or perhaps to complain about the transitive > version (on Include All Necessary Words grounds) -- but so far as i > can tell, none of the handbooks even mention the alternation. > > Wilson Gray continued: > >> OTOH, Google yields many examples of the type: >> >> "COUPLE UNABLE TO _CONCEIVE OF_ CHILD >> >> "MARCH 20, 2008 | ISSUE 44*12 >> >> "FREEPORT, ME-After six months of attempting to _conceive of_ having >> children, local couple Beth and Nathan Jablonski told reporters ..." > > definitely preposition addition. a few more examples: > > Thus, because the petitioner relied on the respondent's actions in > agreeing to conceive of a child through artificial insemination, ... > lawprofessors.typepad.com/lgbtlaw/2007/10/same-sex-partne.html > > ... she may have the satisfaction of knowing that she can make it > possible for some lucky couple to conceive of a child. ... > www.jhunewsletter.com/news/2002/03/29/Features/The-Process.Behind.Egg.Donation-2248251.shtml > > Mae will joke that the only way she could have conceived of a child > is immaculately. The desperate Maggie is subject to a miserable second > virginity, ... > www.sparknotes.com/drama/cat/canalysis.html > > these strike me as very odd. but they're certainly out there. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:33:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:33:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: call one out of one's name Message-ID: Twenty-ish, black female speaker from Alabama describing a tiff betwen former friends: "They _called my sister out of her name_! They called her a 'bitch!'" -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 18:40:42 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:40:42 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091827.mB9BnJZT028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And then there's "approve (of)? That's another one with people appear > to have different intuitions or different perceptions as to what > constitutes the "correct" form in a variety of contexts... see: AZ, 5/15/08: approve (of): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=156 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 18:53:09 2008 From: marcjvelasco at GMAIL.COM (Marc Velasco) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:53:09 -0500 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812091657.mB9C1cRR004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: alternate hypothesis one possibility is that a dominant foot for standing/jumping (the chocolate foot) is not the same as a dominant foot in terms of coordination/shooting. right-footed/right-handed people tend to jump off of their left foot (making the left the chocolate foot). this naturally means their chocolate foot will not be their favored shooting foot. van Persie's case would be exactly the opposite, since he's a lefty. On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a Dutch-German difference? > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Victor Steinbok > > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > Subject: interesting metaphor > > > > =46rom a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > > Quote of the Day > > > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right =93chocolate leg=94 issue: = > "I =20 > > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it=92s = > =20 > > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In =20 > > Holland we call it my =91chocolate leg=92 but positive thinking is the = > =20 > > key for me.=94 > > OK, here's one source. > > > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means =20= > > > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > > Catchword for =93chocolate leg=94 > > > > Catchword: chocolate leg > > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > > Part of Speech: n. > > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not =20 > > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > > Quotation: =93There=92s even something like a =91dominant leg=92! You > =20= > > > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. =20 > > Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s a phrase for that in German: =20 > > =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? I=92m going to assume that = > =20 > > something was lost in the translation here.=94 > > Article or Document Title: > > =93Re: Left-orium=94 (URL) > > Author: > > John C. > > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > > Date of Publication: > > Dec. 29, 2002 > > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > > Dictionary definition of =93chocolate foot=94 > > chocolate foot > > > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or =20= > > > kicking; one=92s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & =20 > > Recreation > > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein =20= > > > =91favored leg=92 (literally =91chocolate leg=92). A similar German = > word is =20 > > Schokoladenseite =91attractive side=92 (literally =91chocolate side=92).= > > > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine=92s =20 > > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your =20= > > > pedals horizontal, with your =93chocolate foot=94 (your strongest = > foot) =20 > > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) =93Re: =20 > > Riding in Arizona=94: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track =20 > > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot =20= > > > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals =20 > > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) =20 > > =93Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck=94: I turned inside a =20 > > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate =20 > > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: =20 > > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) =93Re: Left-orium=94: =93There=92s = > even =20 > > something like a =91dominant leg=92! You automatically try to take off = > =20 > > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s = > a =20 > > phrase for that in German: =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? = > I=92m =20 > > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.=94 =20= > > > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn=92s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first =20= > > > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which =20= > > > foot is your =93chocolate foot,=94 as Hans =93No Way=94 Rey calls it. = > Your =20 > > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep =20 > > forward when standing on the petals. > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:27:39 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:27:39 -0800 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812090221.mB8Nd0CG025321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Scott wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scott > Subject: Re: "the listening-to of Christmas music" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:32:48PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> In my youth in the 'Forties and 'Fifties, people used to pompously >> intone strings like "the listening-to of Christmas music" for laughs. >> They sounded really hilariously wrong. Nowadays, people use such >> constructions so often that I'm beginning to wonder whether anyone >> younger than thirty finds anything unusual about them. Certainly, >> such >> strings are easily generated and easily understood. >> they strike me as at best awkward, but then i'm an old guy. certainly they're attested, and from all sorts of sources; just for {"the listening-to of"}, some examples: the listening to of the internal sounds of the body, usually with a stethoscope, to help with medical diagnosis [Latin auscultare to listen attentively] ... www.thefreedictionary.com/auscultation I know this group promotes the listening to of all genres and veins of music, but britney spears as top artist? PUHLEAZE ?!?! www.last.fm/group/I+Listen+To+Everything This isn't one that you buy for a few songs because everything is made so much more by the listening to of the whole. www.amazon.com/Will-Know-Trail-Dead/dp/B000004B8W ... plus you get one free extra listen to spend on the listening to of any of your own songs for your trouble. stained-zurich.blogspot.com/2008/09/16-things-itunes-can-do-to-improve- on _09.html The Commission however strongly condemns the listening to of Mr Arendse?s private conversations and is of the opinion that this amounts to a violation of ... www.sahrc.org.za/sahrc_cms/downloads/ Prevailing%20conditions%20at %20Ambulance%20and%20R... for many of the hits, the motivation for going for the action nominal ("the Ving of DirObj") rather than the shorter gerundive nominal ("Ving DirObj") is unclear to me. maybe the writers thought the action nominal sounded more "serious". there is some motivation in the New Zealand Commission cite, though; the writer is referring to a specific occurrence or set of occurrences of listening, and for some reason chooses not to identify the listener, and maybe "anyone's listening to Mr Arendse's private conversations" would have been too generic. > Well, I'm well over thirty )-: But 'the listening-to' doesn't strike > me as so strange, probably from the too oft repeated listening-to of > my 20-something children. Actually, "the lighting-up of the Hanukkah > candles" sounds equally acceptable. So does "the dancing-around of the > solsticial bonfire".... there are two different V+X constructions here. "listen to" is V +Prep, and though the V selects a particular Prep, V+Prep isn't a syntactic constituent. "light up", however, is V+Prt, and that *is* a syntactic constituent, a two-part V, so it's entirely natural for it to serve as the base for a derived action nominal. (we've been over the V+Prep vs. V+Prt distinction several times in the past here.) "dance around" can be either: "they danced around the tree" is V+Prep, but "the fire danced around" is V+Prt. now, intransitive verbs can serve as the base for *another* kind of action nominal, a subject nominal ("the Ving of Subj", as in "the roaring of the lion"). so, as others have observed, "the dancing- around of the solsticial bonfire" can be a subject nominal related to "the bonfire dances around", with V+Prt. there's no significant issue with the V+Prt cases, but the V+Prep cases are problematic, because V+Prep isn't a V, at least in standard treatments of these things. but in "the listening-to of" and similar examples, people are now treating certain instances of V+Prep (i'd guess: those where the combination is idiomatic) as Vs for the purposes of action nominalization, presumably by analogy to V+Prt. some of us have the impression that this analogy is a relatively recent development, or at least that it's caught on relatively recently. but i have no idea what the facts are. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:35:56 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:35:56 -0800 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor Message-ID: i don't have much to say on this topic myself, so i'm wearying of acting as a middle man between Victor and ADS-L. i've suggested to Victor that he subscribe, but i suspect he doesn't want to be bothered by the mail. Begin forwarded message: > From: Victor Steinbok > Date: December 9, 2008 10:52:32 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: interesting metaphor > > The first piece below is titled "Chocolate leg is the executioner", > which is basically what the first sentence excerpt says. The second > one says, "Curiously enough, the shot came from the right foot," > implying that it was a "left-footed" player. > > The second piece is a bit more interesting. It says, "Henry can be a > bit chocolate-legged... It is more difficult for a left-legged > player to improve his chocolate leg than for a right-legged player." > This is followed by something like, "Take my word for it--I am a > left-legged footballer." (not reproduced here) A side note is that > Google translates "rechtsbenige" as "right isosceles". I consulted a > native speaker and she was not familiar with either "chocoladebeen" > or "rechtbenige", but did suggest that the latter must be "right- > legged". (But only after I suggested that it might have something to > do with handedness. Her first response was, "It must be Belge!" The > difference is in the final e.) Another thing that's interesting is > that she recognized "been" right away, but not "benige". > > I am translating loosely, since my Dutch is not that great. But I am > sure of the general meaning. > > So, if the citation for German was correct, it does seem to be a > German/Dutch difference. And "chocoladebeen" gets a lot of hits > (1100 raw). I found a few that refer to "a very good chocolate leg", > so the idiom appears to be in wide use in this particular context. > Looking back at the citations from the first message (second page > cited for "chocolate foot"), most of them also refer to the less- > favored foot, i.e., non-leading foot on the bike or planting foot in > soccer. My German is nonexistent, so I can't verify how the word is > used in German. Then, there is also this oddity, which is similar to > DoubleTongued definition. > > The only German page where I could get an unambiguous translation > that supported the "dominant leg" interpretation was this one. The > rest were either ambiguous or contradictory. Might there even be a > German/Austrian difference? (With Austrian more similar to Dutch... > Or is it the other way around?) > schau auch v.a. auf die Wadenmuskulatur Deines "kurzen" Bein i.d.R. > wird die deutlich d?nner sein als die des Schokoladenbein > > VS-) > > http://bramvanpolen.punt.nl/index.php?r=1&id=410217&tbl_archief=0 > Enkele minuten voor tijd bracht aanvoerder Albert van der Haar met > zijn rechtervoet de Zwolse formatie de volle winst. Het > chocoladebeen fungeert als scherprechter. > ... > Albert van der Haar kreeg de gelegenheid om aan de linkerkant van > het veld op te stormen. De aanvoerder wist de voor zijn eigen goal > staande Kevin Moeilijker te verrassen met een geplaatst > afstandschot. Curieus genoeg kwam de treffer vanaf de rechtervoet. > http://forum.voetbalprimeur.nl/showthread.php?p=412681 > Henry kan weinig met zijn chocoladebeen (let daar maar eens op), > maar is wel ??n van de betere spitsen ter wereld. > ... > Het is namelijk voor linksbenige spelers moeilijker om het > chocoladebeen te verbeteren dan voor rechtsbenige spelers. > > > > > > Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >> >From a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): >> Quote of the Day >> >> - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right ?chocolate leg? issue: >> "I know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but >> it?s basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. >> In Holland we call it my ?chocolate leg? but positive thinking is >> the key for me.? >> OK, here's one source. >> >> Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means >> exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. >> http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ >> Catchword for ?chocolate leg? >> >> Catchword: chocolate leg >> Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation >> Part of Speech: n. >> The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not >> necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. >> Quotation: ?There?s even something like a ?dominant leg?! You >> automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. >> Try. You?d be amazed. There?s a phrase for that in German: >> ?Schokoladenbein.?? ?Chocolate leg? I?m going to assume that >> something was lost in the translation here.? >> Article or Document Title: >> ?Re: Left-orium? (URL) >> Author: >> John C. >> Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: >> Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom >> Date of Publication: >> Dec. 29, 2002 >> This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. >> Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | >> >> http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ >> Dictionary definition of ?chocolate foot? >> chocolate foot >> >> n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, >> or kicking; one?s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & >> Recreation >> Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein >> ?favored leg? (literally ?chocolate leg?). A similar German word is >> Schokoladenseite ?attractive side? (literally ?chocolate side?). >> 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend >> Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine?s >> Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep >> your pedals horizontal, with your ?chocolate foot? (your strongest >> foot) forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) >> ?Re: Riding in Arizona?: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track >> descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate >> foot into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the >> pedals level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record >> (Sept. 20) ?Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck?: I turned >> inside a defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my >> chocolate foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. >> Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) ?Re: Left-orium?: >> ?There?s even something like a ?dominant leg?! You automatically >> try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You?d be >> amazed. There?s a phrase for that in German: ?Schokoladenbein.?? >> ?Chocolate leg? I?m going to assume that something was lost in the >> translation here.? 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn?s Cycling Primer (June 1) >> p. 34: The first thing you must know before hucking yourself off a >> drop-off is which foot is your ?chocolate foot,? as Hans ?No Way? >> Rey calls it. Your chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one >> you always keep forward when standing on the petals. >> Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Dec 9 19:57:16 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:57:16 -0800 Subject: OT: Vocab tester & rice donor Message-ID: For those who enjoy learning or being tested on vocab, www.freerice.com has English vocabulary, English grammar, foreign language vocabulary and other topics. Each click results in 20 grains of rice being donated. It looks like it's on the up-and-up to me and the level it put me at was a challenge, but not overwhelming. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:29:17 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:29:17 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search Message-ID: ---- http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] ---- I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ Pretty exciting stuff. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:11:24 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:11:24 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: <200812091805.mB9BnJWN028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two > San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the > U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's > Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic > interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people > are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. [...] > "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". It appears that one inspiration for the snowclone-y substitution of "call in sick" with "call in gay" is this quote, attributed to lesbian activist Robin Tyler: "If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work: 'Hello. Can't work today, still queer.'" This reminds me a bit of the "driving while X" snowclone. Here are some other "call in X (to work)" variations attested on the Web: stupid grumpy sad crazy dead drunk ugly fat stinky gray [referring to hair dye] gasless empty cold well healthy rich hysterical constipated allergic seasonally affective kidnapped Republican Democrat >From a Google search of: <"call in * to work" -"call in sick|late|gay|queer"> (Many are of the negative form, "you can't call in X to work", or the interrogative, "can I call in X to work?") --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 20:32:59 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:32:59 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228854557.493ed51d0b80c@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 03:29:17PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---- > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html > Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and > current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing > millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular > Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] > ---- > > I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine > they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those > issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ > > Pretty exciting stuff. Ooh, thanks for pointing this out. I started getting results from such places in the last day or two, but didn't know why. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:32:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > ---- > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html > Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and > current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing > millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular > Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] > ---- > > I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine > they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those > issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ Sorry, there are actually scanned issues of "Ebony" from 1962 to 2008. Very scattered coverage so far, though. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:46:14 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:46:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <2A66F998-9FDA-46A1-A9F7-63040D1BC813@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Did anyone notice the non-environmentally PC stance taken by Permalink at the very end of Arnold's message? Is this an eggcorn, "petal" for "pedal"? Can't think of what the alternative might be. Joel At 12/9/2008 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>Your >>chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep >>forward when standing on the petals. >>Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:49:41 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:49:41 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228854557.493ed51d0b80c@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Have they learned what a volume and a number are? (Too lazy to check for myself at the moment.) Joel At 12/9/2008 03:29 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---- >http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/search-and-find-magazines-on-google.html >Today, we're announcing an initiative to help bring more magazine archives and >current magazines online, partnering with publishers to begin digitizing >millions of articles from titles as diverse as New York Magazine, Popular >Mechanics, and Ebony. [etc.] >---- > >I don't see a complete list of magazines, but when you do find a magazine >they've scanned you can browse all available issues or search within those >issues. Here's "Ebony", covering 1973 to 1979: > >http://books.google.com/books?id=r9QDAAAAMBAJ > >Pretty exciting stuff. > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 20:43:27 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:43:27 -0500 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <31a485c70812091053t249b51f8u8dcdef0e4b490765@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: But -- A right-handed basketball player (or anyone, shooting from the right side of the basket) will push off from the left foot. I tend to think of the left foot here as analogous to the left hand for righties -- used for strength, not dexterity, such as to hold a jar while twisting off the cap with the right hand. By analogy with Schokoladenseite 'attractive side', I would expect 'Schokoladenbein' to be the golden leg, not the weak one. But let's ask Franz (Beckenbauer, that is). Joel At 12/9/2008 01:53 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: >alternate hypothesis > >one possibility is that a dominant foot for standing/jumping (the chocolate >foot) is not the same as a dominant foot in terms of coordination/shooting. > >right-footed/right-handed people tend to jump off of their left foot (making >the left the chocolate foot). this naturally means their chocolate foot >will not be their favored shooting foot. van Persie's case would be exactly >the opposite, since he's a lefty. > > > >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > a Dutch-German difference? > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: Victor Steinbok > > > Date: December 9, 2008 7:18:03 AM PST > > > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > > Subject: interesting metaphor > > > > > > =46rom a daily soccer report (no source given in the email): > > > Quote of the Day > > > > > > - Robin van Persie on overcoming his right =93chocolate leg=94 issue: = > > "I =20 > > > know I can shoot with my right, although my left is better, but it=92s = > > =20 > > > basically down to your belief in the power of your wrong foot. In =20 > > > Holland we call it my =91chocolate leg=92 but positive thinking is the = > > =20 > > > key for me.=94 > > > OK, here's one source. > > > > > > Here's another version. The interesting thing here is that it means =20= > > > > > exactly the opposite from van Persie's statement. > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/chocolate_leg_1/ > > > Catchword for =93chocolate leg=94 > > > > > > Catchword: chocolate leg > > > Filed Under: English, Sports & Recreation > > > Part of Speech: n. > > > The part of speech reflects that used in the full entry, and not =20 > > > necessarily the part of speech as it is used in the quotation below. > > > Quotation: =93There=92s even something like a =91dominant leg=92! You > > =20= > > > > > automatically try to take off from that one if attempting to jump. =20 > > > Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s a phrase for that in German: =20 > > > =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? I=92m going to assume that = > > =20 > > > something was lost in the translation here.=94 > > > Article or Document Title: > > > =93Re: Left-orium=94 (URL) > > > Author: > > > John C. > > > Article, Document, Publication, Web Site: > > > Usenet: rec.games.roguelike.adom > > > Date of Publication: > > > Dec. 29, 2002 > > > This cite belongs to a full entry for chocolate foot. > > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink | > > > > > > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/chocolate_foot/ > > > Dictionary definition of =93chocolate foot=94 > > > chocolate foot > > > > > > n. the foot favored to use or to start with when running, biking, or =20= > > > > > kicking; one=92s dominant foot. Subjects: English, Body, Sports & =20 > > > Recreation > > > Etymological Note: Perhaps a calque from the German Schokoladenbein =20= > > > > > =91favored leg=92 (literally =91chocolate leg=92). A similar German = > > word is =20 > > > Schokoladenseite =91attractive side=92 (literally =91chocolate side=92).= > > > > > 1 Comment | Cites | Permalink | Tell a Friend > > > Citations: 1996 Hans Rey, Scott Martin Mountain Bike Magazine=92s =20 > > > Complete Guide To Mountain Biking Skills (Feb. 15) p. 116: Keep your =20= > > > > > pedals horizontal, with your =93chocolate foot=94 (your strongest = > > foot) =20 > > > forward. 1999 [Klieg] Usenet: alt.mountain-bike (Mar. 19) =93Re: =20 > > > Riding in Arizona=94: Chicken Point has a sreaming single track =20 > > > descent off it that has a nasty habit of turning your chocolate foot =20= > > > > > into good because you are hardly pedaling, jsut keeping the pedals =20 > > > level and coasting at 30mph. 1999 Scottish Daily Record (Sept. 20) =20 > > > =93Roddy gets it right with a bit of luck=94: I turned inside a =20 > > > defender, created a bit of space and hit a shot with my chocolate =20 > > > foot, my right, and luckily it went in. 2002 John C. Usenet: =20 > > > rec.games.roguelike.adom (Dec. 29) =93Re: Left-orium=94: =93There=92s = > > even =20 > > > something like a =91dominant leg=92! You automatically try to take off = > > =20 > > > from that one if attempting to jump. Try. You=92d be amazed. There=92s = > > a =20 > > > phrase for that in German: =91Schokoladenbein.=92=94 =93Chocolate leg? = > > I=92m =20 > > > going to assume that something was lost in the translation here.=94 =20= > > > > > 2004 Leonard Zinn Zinn=92s Cycling Primer (June 1) p. 34: The first =20= > > > > > thing you must know before hucking yourself off a drop-off is which =20= > > > > > foot is your =93chocolate foot,=94 as Hans =93No Way=94 Rey calls it. = > > Your =20 > > > chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep =20 > > > forward when standing on the petals. > > > Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:51:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:51:17 -0800 Subject: "the listening-to of Christmas music" In-Reply-To: <200812091927.mB9ICSfJ028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:27 AM, i wrote: > ... there is some motivation in > the New Zealand Commission cite, though ... South African ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:53:57 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:53:57 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some are harder to contexualize than others: "call in gasless"? There's also, in a related snowclone", "stage an X-out" (< sick-out, I assume based on walk-out), such as staging a gay-out or queer-out. (Too close to outing?) And there's always the blue flu for police job actions, although I don't know if that's sponsored snowclones, given the rhyme factor. Hair stylists staging a do-flu? Tiger-cage cleaners putting on a zoo-flu? Underpaid rabbis organizing for...well, you get the idea. LH At 3:11 PM -0500 12/9/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> tomorrow is International Human Rights Day, and for the occasion two >> San Franciscans have spearheaded a protest and boycott (across the >> U.S.) on behalf of gay rights and in opposition to California's >> Proposition 8 (banning same-sex marriage). two points of linguistic >> interest: the name of the event is "A Day Without a Gay", and people >> are encouraged to "call in gay" from work. >[...] >> "call in gay" is of course based on the idiom "call in sick". > >It appears that one inspiration for the snowclone-y substitution of >"call in sick" with "call in gay" is this quote, attributed to lesbian >activist Robin Tyler: > >"If homosexuality is a disease, let's all call in queer to work: >'Hello. Can't work today, still queer.'" > >This reminds me a bit of the "driving while X" snowclone. Here are >some other "call in X (to work)" variations attested on the Web: > >stupid >grumpy >sad >crazy >dead >drunk >ugly >fat >stinky >gray [referring to hair dye] >gasless >empty >cold >well >healthy >rich >hysterical >constipated >allergic >seasonally affective >kidnapped >Republican >Democrat > >>>From a Google search of: <"call in * to work" -"call in sick|late|gay|queer"> > >(Many are of the negative form, "you can't call in X to work", or the >interrogative, "can I call in X to work?") > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:55:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:55:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812092046.mB9KkTin000518@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 3:46 PM -0500 12/9/08, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Did anyone notice the non-environmentally PC stance taken by >Permalink at the very end of Arnold's message? Is this an eggcorn, >"petal" for "pedal"? Can't think of what the alternative might be. > >Joel Maybe a spinoff from a well-attested eggcorn, "to soft-petal", "soft-petalling", etc. LH > >At 12/9/2008 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>Your >>>chocolate foot is your favorite foot, the one you always keep >>>forward when standing on the petals. >>>Posted 9 Feb 05 | Permalink > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:55:15 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:55:15 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <200812092029.mB9C1crn004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Have they learned what a volume and a number are? (Too lazy to check > for myself at the moment.) Yes, for the most part the metadata for these magazines seems better than the previously scanned periodicals. I've noticed some misdating (e.g., issues of New York and Mother Jones from 1997 dated as 1977), but overall it looks fairly reliable. I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 20:57:53 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:57:53 -0500 Subject: Wednesday 10 December: "Day Without a Gay" In-Reply-To: <200812092054.mB9ICSwt028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Some are harder to contexualize than others: "call in gasless"? That was from the days of high gas prices. Same with "call in empty". --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Tue Dec 9 20:59:06 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:59:06 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812090323.mB8K9SNp023723@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>better known than dog[male] > > That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has > exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef cattle, though). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 21:00:01 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:00:01 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812091827.mB9ICSR3028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be > trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the > Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a > preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the > Perfect. That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect tense*s*"). I would call "I approved" an example of the simple past tense. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 21:07:22 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:07:22 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092059.mB9Kieu9028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>better known than dog[male] >> >> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) > > I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle > drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, > but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef > cattle, though). Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Dec 9 21:15:17 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:15:17 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812091307l2ea6e3edn24e880bd8863c9e7@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/9/2008 04:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham > wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: > >>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much > >>>better known than dog[male] > >> > >> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has > >> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) > > > > I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle > > drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, > > but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef > > cattle, though). > >Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? > >I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it >comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. >How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, >or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? I also observe that Ann is writing as a farmer, not a dog breeder, who might say "dog", "bitch", and (?) "canine". :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Dec 9 21:35:41 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:35:41 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <200812092055.mB9BnJdX028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search > and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). Here's a little taste of what's archived now: ---- http://books.google.com/books?id=37IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA80 Review of "The Naked Soul of Iceberg Slim" by Preston Wilcox _Black World_, May 1972, p. 80 A theory of Black social systems: Fuck over no one so you will not have to worry about whose going to fuck over you. The "unfucked-over" are both unfuckable and have no need to fuck over anybody else. ---- Note the use of "fuck over [Pronoun]" rather than "fuck [Pronoun] over", a feature of BE that Wilson discussed in a Sep. 2007 thread (somewhat to the bafflement of Dennis, Ron and others): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709D&L=ads-l&P=23064 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Dec 9 22:12:31 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:12:31 +0000 Subject: interesting metaphor In-Reply-To: <200812092043.mB9C1ctv004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 9 Dec 2008, at 20:43, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > By analogy with Schokoladenseite 'attractive side', I would expect > 'Schokoladenbein' to be the golden leg, not the weak one. But let's > ask Franz (Beckenbauer, that is). "Schokoladenbein" lives a marginal life at the edge of my vocabulary. I had to think about what it might mean, though I vaguely remember encountering it before, with the meaning attested for German. The analogy with "Schokoladenseite" feels right to me. "Schokoladenseite" is in my passive vocabulary, but it's to cutesy for me to use (much). For manual clumsiness, German has the metaphorical "Butterfinger", which unfortunately is the name of a candy bar which got taken off the shelves in Germany after widespread and vocal consumer rejection (it contained/contains genetically modified corn and would have been or was one of the first foodstuffs to be sold in Germany with the obligatory labelling in place). I can't find many examples for "Butterbeine" (butter legs). There's "Butterknie", which is widespread, though more in a context of illness or stage fright than relating to clumsiness. The entire metaphoric complex is not really part of my own regional variety -- sounds norddeutsch to my ears. Chris Waigl chocolate-loving German native speaker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 9 22:26:47 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:26:47 -0500 Subject: Magazine initiative from Google Book Search In-Reply-To: <1228858541.493ee4ad7431d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 04:35:41PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: > > > > I think the best way to dip in to the new archive is to go to Advanced Search > > and restrict your search to magazines (along with a date range). > > Here's a little taste of what's archived now: > > ---- > http://books.google.com/books?id=37IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA80 > Review of "The Naked Soul of Iceberg Slim" by Preston Wilcox > _Black World_, May 1972, p. 80 > A theory of Black social systems: Fuck over no one so you will not have to worry > about whose going to fuck over you. The "unfucked-over" are both unfuckable and > have no need to fuck over anybody else. > ---- > > Note the use of "fuck over [Pronoun]" rather than "fuck [Pronoun] over", a > feature of BE that Wilson discussed in a Sep. 2007 thread (somewhat to the > bafflement of Dennis, Ron and others): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709D&L=ads-l&P=23064 and which is in HDAS, OED, F-Word to 1961, in AAVE use. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 9 22:33:09 2008 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:33:09 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas Message-ID: At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written in chav-style British English. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Dec 9 22:51:28 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 22:51:28 +0000 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas In-Reply-To: <200812092236.mB9BnJnv028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 9 Dec 2008, at 22:33, James Harbeck wrote: > At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written > in chav-style British English. > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html > > Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform > complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but > about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. I'd have said "predictably" instead of or in addition to "amusingly". Most members of this list are without doubt aware of the connotations of "speak properly" (which occurs twice), which is brimming with class- related overtones. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 9 23:33:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:33:36 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092107.mB9ICS1Z028383@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Once upon a time, people who had cattle as well as hat said, "a / one head of beef cattle." But this was already dying out among those unconcerned with this particular form of agribusiness at least as far back as 1972. Calvert Watkins was unable to persuade most members of his Intro Hittitie class at the LSA Summer Institute at UNC that there was any reason to translate a recurring collocation of graphs as, e.g. "ten head of cattle" as opposed to the simpler and at least as transparent "ten cattle." Would one say, "ten head of sheep"? Of course. Hence, it would be incorrect to say, "ten sheep." Not at all. The defense rests. Remember when milk trucks were drawn by horses wearing rubber shoes, so as not to annoy the still-sleeping 'hood with the clip-clop of regular shoes? When the milkman got out of the truck with a case of deliveries, the horse fired itself up and strode to the next stop. After making his last delivery, the milkman merely walked to the curb, where his "carriage" awaited him, left the empty case, and picked up a full one. Somehow, motor-driven trucks were never able to learn to do this, forcing the milkman to walk half a block or so back to dead machinery. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>better known than dog[male] >>> >>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >> >> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >> cattle, though). > > Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? > > I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it > comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. > How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, > or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 00:11:02 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:11:02 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas Message-ID: In the words of Pupil 2: "On that's gross, near turned my guts that as!" Wiv an accent ony a movver could love. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Chris Waigl" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/9/2008 5:51:28 PM Subject: Re: A very chavvy Christmas >On 9 Dec 2008, at 22:33, James Harbeck wrote: >> At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written >> in chav-style British English. >> >> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as >-a-Kappa-slapper.html >> >> Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform >> complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but >> about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. >I'd have said "predictably" instead of or in addition to "amusingly". >Most members of this list are without doubt aware of the connotations >of "speak properly" (which occurs twice), which is brimming with class- >related overtones. >Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 00:16:28 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:16:28 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children Message-ID: All of which completely ignores the Science Channel's occasional reports about two-headed this or thats. Last night it was a two-headed snake, and two-faced pigs and kittens. Plus a 'cyclops' pig. dh ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Wilson Gray" To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Received: 12/9/2008 6:33:36 PM Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children >Once upon a time, people who had cattle as well as hat said, "a / one >head of beef cattle." But this was already dying out among those >unconcerned with this particular form of agribusiness at least as far >back as 1972. Calvert Watkins was unable to persuade most members of >his Intro Hittitie class at the LSA Summer Institute at UNC that there >was any reason to translate a recurring collocation of graphs as, e.g. >"ten head of cattle" as opposed to the simpler and at least as >transparent "ten cattle." Would one say, "ten head of sheep"? Of >course. Hence, it would be incorrect to say, "ten sheep." Not at all. >The defense rests. >Remember when milk trucks were drawn by horses wearing rubber shoes, >so as not to annoy the still-sleeping 'hood with the clip-clop of >regular shoes? When the milkman got out of the truck with a case of >deliveries, the horse fired itself up and strode to the next stop. >After making his last delivery, the milkman merely walked to the curb, >where his "carriage" awaited him, left the empty case, and picked up a >full one. >Somehow, motor-driven trucks were never able to learn to do this, >forcing the milkman to walk half a block or so back to dead machinery. >-Wilson >????????? >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain >On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham >wrote: >>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>>better known than dog[male] >>>> >>>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >>> >>> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >>> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >>> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >>> cattle, though). >> >> Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? >> >> I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it >> comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. >> How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, >> or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:01:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:01:02 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812092100.mB9KtRvd004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be >> trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the >> Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a >> preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of >> the >> Perfect. > > That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your > terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned > of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have > approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect > tense*s*"). my guess is that wilson was referring to the (well-known) shift in (especially american) english towards using the simple past (corresponding roughly to the "imperfect" of some other languages) where the present perfect would have been used earlier, as in "I already did it" (instead of "I've already done it"). but, yes, the terminology is balled up somehow. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 01:22:22 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:22:22 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812092100.mB9KtRvd004298@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be more transparent: 1) I act 2) I acted 3) I have acted But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the terminology and a person was forever having to translate the terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided. I admit to making no attempt to maintain currency in the use of such terminology. If it's latterly - from my point of view - become standardized, I'm unaware of it, unfortunately. Mark, if I'd known that non-conforming or, I'm willing to grant, if that helps, mistaken terminology, even in a post as trivial as mine, was a pet peeve of yours, I would have gone to Wikipedia before I posted. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> But, at this point in time, the development of English seems to be >> trending toward the loss of the Present Perfect in favor of the >> Perfect, whereas German and the Romance languages appear to have a >> preference for the Present Perfect-equivalent, to the detriment of the >> Perfect. > > That paragraph confuses me; would you please elucidate your > terminology? In (AFAIR) all that I was taught and all I have learned > of and about English, "perfect" = "present perfect", e.g. "I have > approved" (unless you're speaking categorially of "the perfect > tense*s*"). I would call "I approved" an example of the simple past > tense. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:34:05 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:34:05 -0800 Subject: mailer/archive problems Message-ID: just noticed that a middle-sized posting of mine following up on "the listening-to of Christmas music" went out, according to my records, at 11:27 PST this morning, with a small correction at 11:51. but neither appears in the archives. nor does a brief follow-up of mine to Wilson Gray (on "conceive (of)") that went out at 10:40 a.m. PST. there's more, but this will do for the moment. arnold, continuing to be puzzled ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 01:38:17 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:38:17 -0800 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812100122.mB9KieRt028430@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical > terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" > from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be > more transparent: > > 1) I act > 2) I acted > 3) I have acted > > But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the > terminology and a person was forever having to translate the > terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to > which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... 2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", "preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present perfect" (for English). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 01:57:59 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:57:59 -0500 Subject: mailer/archive problems In-Reply-To: <200812100134.mBA0261R028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This may not be the same problem, but I've used three different email addresses to subscribe to ADS-L. Two of them, my @bsu.edu and my former home email address simply stopped working. I received postings, but my postings didn't appear. This went on for several years. So far my gmail address has worked without a hitch. Server hiccups? Herb On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: mailer/archive problems > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > just noticed that a middle-sized posting of mine following up on "the > listening-to of Christmas music" went out, according to my records, at > 11:27 PST this morning, with a small correction at 11:51. but neither > appears in the archives. nor does a brief follow-up of mine to Wilson > Gray (on "conceive (of)") that went out at 10:40 a.m. PST. > > there's more, but this will do for the moment. > > arnold, continuing to be puzzled > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 02:01:16 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:01:16 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <917832B9-1E43-4E68-A604-DDA3932C4FED@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's grammatical >>terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>more transparent: >> >>1) I act >>2) I acted >>3) I have acted >> >>But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... > >2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >"preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >perfect" (for English). > And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 04:35:13 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:35:13 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <200812100201.mBA0261x028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's >>> grammatical >>> terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>> from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>> more transparent: >>> >>> 1) I act >>> 2) I acted >>> 3) I have acted >>> >>> But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>> terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>> terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>> which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... >> >> 2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >> "preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >> perfect" (for English). >> > And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. > Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called > the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? > > LH ~~~~~~~~~ As I recall, that was the model we got in Latin for the imperfect: i.e., Subj was verbing. OT but on definitions: A friend, knowing we rarely observe Xmas except to hope that it will bring an end to all the noisy, ugly hype, recommended that we "have a Jewish christmas", defined as ordering in Chinese & going to a movie. AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 04:49:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:49:00 -0500 Subject: "conceive (of)" In-Reply-To: <750BF1AB-E0CA-497C-8663-9A953E1A2583@att.net> Message-ID: At 11:35 PM -0500 12/9/08, Alison Murie wrote: >On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>At 5:38 PM -0800 12/9/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>Subject: Re: "conceive (of)" >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>My terminology may be somewhat antiquated, given that it's >>>>grammatical >>>>terminology from fifty years ago, itself based on English "grammar" >>>>from possibly fifty years before then. Perhaps nummbering would be >>>>more transparent: >>>> >>>>1) I act >>>>2) I acted >>>>3) I have acted >>>> >>>>But it seems to me that there was once wide variation in the >>>>terminology and a person was forever having to translate the >>>>terminology that he was reading or hearing into the terminology to >>>>which he was accustomed on the basis of the example(s) provided... >>> >>>2) has different labels in English -- "past", "simple past", >>>"preterite", "imperfect" -- but never, in my experience, "present >>>perfect" (for English). >>> >>And I'd wager that "imperfect" is somewhat misleading here too. >>Wouldn't that make more sense for what I guess would also be called >>the past progressive, i.e. "I was acting"? >> >>LH >~~~~~~~~~ >As I recall, that was the model we got in Latin for the imperfect: i.e., >Subj was verbing. > >OT but on definitions: A friend, knowing we rarely observe Xmas >except to hope >that it will bring an end to all the noisy, ugly hype, recommended >that we "have >a Jewish christmas", defined as ordering in Chinese & going to a movie. >AM > Now, now, we live in modern times and there's no need to stick with the traditions of our grandparents. Many Talmudic scholars see nothing wrong with going out to eat Chinese and watching a video at home. LH LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 05:45:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:45:36 -0500 Subject: A very chavvy Christmas In-Reply-To: <200812092236.mB9BnJnv028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Pupil three: "Well. Then blow me ..." Ca.1975, I was vaguely acquainted with an Englishwoman - the victim-wife of my girlfriend's abusive, Australian ex-boyfriend - who randomly alternated "blow me" with "blimey" in her speech. Surprised to hear a woman say "blow me," I asked her about it. But, before she could complete her response, the husband interrupted, shouting, "Oh, you liar! You liar! Shut up!", as was his wont, whenever she attempted to make a statement without having him vet it first. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:33 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: A very chavvy Christmas > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the bottom of the following article is a splendid script written > in chav-style British English. > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/3690166/Chav-nativity-casts-Mary-as-a-Kappa-slapper.html > > Amusingly, the parents of the teens who were given it to perform > complained not about the irreverence (some might say blasphemy) but > about the kind of language their kids were apparently being taught. > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 07:04:23 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:04:23 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812042059.mB4BkvW0008806@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By > "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than > necessarily being eloquent or admirable. I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU Wed Dec 10 08:04:30 2008 From: DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:04:30 -0600 Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved ? from the elected officials down to the mailroom clerks ? understands what the rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other acts of political corruption. According to Patrick J. Fitzgerald, U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make Lincoln roll over in his grave." .... read the rest of this post on the Web of Language http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 12:53:45 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:53:45 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political languae? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer [bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:04 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most notable quotations of the year. By > "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than > necessarily being eloquent or admirable. I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it. I can parachute me there." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 10 13:18:56 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:18:56 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798C9AF@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > languae? I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. I say wait ten years and let's see. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 14:31:31 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:31:31 -0500 Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training thathe m andated for all state employees? Message-ID: He may perhaps have been a believer in the concept that, as some writers say re grammar rules, you have to know 'em before you can (carefully) break them. The difference: He wasn't careful. -- And though these were your words, not his, it appears he was attempting to raise IL from being "a politically corrupt state" to being "THE (pinnacle) politically corrupt state". dh Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he mandated for all state employees? >There's a new post on the Web of Language: >Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he >mandated for all state employees? >In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online >ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for >being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to >put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in >state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved ? from the >elected officials down to the mailroom clerks ? understands what the >rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." >But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training >himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to >sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other >acts of political corruption. According to Patrick J. Fitzgerald, >U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who >convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while >letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make >Lincoln roll over in his grave." >.... >read the rest of this post on the Web of Language >http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage >Dennis Baron >Professor of English and Linguistics >Department of English >University of Illinois >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 >office: 217-244-0568 >fax: 217-333-4321 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:04:57 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:04:57 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 Message-ID: Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no such constraint. Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that important. G. ________________________________ Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > languae? I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. I say wait ten years and let's see. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:08:45 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:45 -0500 Subject: substitution of X with Y Message-ID: "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in sick' ..."? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:22:29 2008 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael Covarrubias) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101505.mBABlJhc014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no > such constraint. > > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that > important. > > that's why i like fitzgerald's comment as he quoted blago: "and the bleeps were not really bleeps." michael ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 15:30:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:30:33 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101505.mBABlJo6032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County was. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = > such constraint. > =20 > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that = > important. > =20 > G.=20 > > ________________________________ > > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: > > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >> languae? > > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. > > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. > > I say wait ten years and let's see. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:32:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:32:53 -0800 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101508.mBABlJia014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." > > I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... > substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be > grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in > sick' ..."? we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of mine from 10/26/04: using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, the original verb usages were: (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) ---- as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material from "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly be labeled as non-standard. to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being of interest. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 15:42:16 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:42:16 -0500 Subject: "word to mother" (1985) In-Reply-To: <200809130517.m8D4JrJQ017582@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Does the OED include "Word Up!", documentable to 1986, when it > > appeared as the title of a song written by Lawrence Ernest "Larry" > > Blackmon and recorded by the group, Cameo? > > Yes indeed. > > --- > B. int. slang (orig. U.S., in the language of rap and hip-hop). > Also _word up_. Expressing affirmation, agreement, or admiration: > 'That's the truth!' 'There's no denying it!' 'For sure!' > 1981 J. SPICER et al. Money (Dollar Bill Y'all) (song) in L. A. > Stanley Rap: the Lyrics (1992) 301 Word.., that's a good record, man. > 1986 'CAMEO' (title of record) Word up! 1993 B. CROSS It's not about > Salary 251 Tommy Boy signed it, and here's the House of Pain, word up. > 2002 N. MCDONELL Twelve liii. 133 'Yo b, we gonna smoke some mad bowls > tonight,' Timmy says to Mark Rothko. 'Word, word,' Mark Rothko agrees > sagely. > --- Here's "word up" before the Cameo song: 1985 _New York_ 3 June 28/1 Alex said, "Yo Ross, word up, I'm going to fiend a head." ["Fiend" is explained as 'choke', and "head" as 'victim (of a robbery)'.] 1985 _New York_ 3 June 40/2 "Just trying to stay out of trouble," Alex said. "Word up." >From the cover story "Hunting the Wolf Packs": http://books.google.com/books?id=07YBAAAAMBAJ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 16:00:38 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:00:38 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <82745f630812100730j1ef6e108v231ecd21c95777ae@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, Illinois was presumably corrupt then also? >I never knew the name of >any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >was. But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long stretches. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 17:30:03 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:30:03 -0500 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101533.mBABlJn6014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, arnold, but, really, "You got the old coon, this time," as the punch line to the old, long-winded pun goes. I vaguely remember the discussion. Hence, I know that I could have looked up the discussion in the archives. I'm kinda having a bad-health day and am preparing to make a run to the doc's and I just didn't feel like it. I didn't participate in that discussion because I was still dealing with the newcomer attitude problem: Can it truly be the case that I'm the only person on earth - or is that "on Earth"? - who speaks proper English?! Though I grew up with only "substitute X for Y," I knew that German and other languages had something like "substitute Y with X," which hung me up when I first came across it, since it required "reverse interpretation," so to speak. Then, I started to see something similar in English (in BrE first?), where, IMO at the time, it was an even worse problem, since it really interferes with my automatic understanding of English. Now, having mastered my initially-negative emotional response - like, it's about *dialects*, whether academic or rural, no? - I was just kinda, sorta wondering how far people for whom this construction is natural are willing to take this "innovation." Though I meant no harm, I apologize. (This is as close as I can come to the hated, extremely-peeving, "*if* I've done anything that someone may have been injured by," etc. That's *so* bleeping weasling! It's makes it seem as though the problem is the injured party's fault for being overly sensitive, even unmanly and not able to take it. Either apologize for real or tell them to get stuffed.) -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: substitution of X with Y >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." >> >> I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would "... >> substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be >> grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for 'call in >> sick' ..."? > > we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled > "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of > mine from 10/26/04: > > using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, > the original verb usages were: > (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) > (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) > > "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the > proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): > (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) > > ---- > > as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice > discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). > > encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material from > "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly be > labeled as non-standard. > > to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in > these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on > ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being > of interest. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gww at OLEMISS.EDU Wed Dec 10 17:54:14 2008 From: gww at OLEMISS.EDU (Gerald Walton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:54:14 -0600 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812101730.mBAHP1Eu014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." GWW ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:15:03 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:15:03 -0500 Subject: Test message (sorry for the possible duplication) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I sent essentially the same message out at 11:43 (according to my Out box), but as of 1:14 it hasn't shown up in my In box. LH At 2:04 AM -0500 12/10/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> I'm working on my list for the Associated Press of the top 10 most >>notable quotations of the year. By >> "notable" I mean "important" or "famous" or "particularly >>revealing of the spirit of our times" rather than >> necessarily being eloquent or admirable. > >I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: > >"I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just >not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and >I can always use it. I can parachute me there." > >--Ben Zimmer Beyond the bleeps and the colorful instance of negative concord (I was getting tired of "Ain't no cat can't get into no coop" and "I can't get no satisfaction", so "I'm just not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing" will be a breath of fresh air), there's the curious pronominal in the last sentence, which isn't a personal dative (no direct object) and isn't a contrastive focus pronominal ("I'm just [bleepin] worrying about *me*"). What it's more like is the physical displacement pronominals in "Now I lay me down to sleep" and "I sat me down" (> 15000 google hits; cf. also "I set me down", with 960 g-hits from country lyrics like "I set me down beside her"). As Gregory Ward just pointed out to me, 'there's a use of the non-reflexive with verbs of transport. So, you get "I could move me over two spaces" in an on-line game. Or "I have no trouble taking me there" (in the context of "Don't go there"). Or "I put me there on purpose" (in explaining a seating chart). I've always taken these to be a kind of dual persona use: I'm transporting my physical self to some location.' LH P.S. There are 3,110 g-hits for "I can parachute me", but (surprise!) they all seem to be less than two days old. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:24:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:24:18 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJAu032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 2:04 AM -0500 12/10/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >>"I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just >>not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and >>I can always use it. I can parachute me there." > > Beyond the bleeps and the colorful instance of negative concord (I > was getting tired of "Ain't no cat can't get into no coop" and "I > can't get no satisfaction", so "I'm just not giving it up for > [bleep]in' nothing" will be a breath of fresh air), there's the > curious pronominal in the last sentence, which isn't a personal > dative (no direct object) and isn't a contrastive focus pronominal > ("I'm just [bleepin] worrying about *me*"). What it's more like is > the physical displacement pronominals in "Now I lay me down to sleep" > and "I sat me down" (> 15000 google hits; cf. also "I set me down", > with 960 g-hits from country lyrics like "I set me down beside her"). > As Gregory Ward just pointed out to me, 'there's a use of the > non-reflexive with verbs of transport. So, you get "I could move me > over two spaces" in an on-line game. Or "I have no trouble taking me > there" (in the context of "Don't go there"). Or "I put me there on > purpose" (in explaining a seating chart). I've always taken these to > be a kind of dual persona use: I'm transporting my physical self to > some location.' Note also that elsewhere in the wiretap excerpts Blagojevich uses the plain old reflexive for "send": "Unless I get something real good [for Senate candidate 1], shit, I'll just send myself, you know what I'm saying." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 10 19:19:18 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:19:18 -0800 Subject: Dizzy Blondes Message-ID: "Blonde jokes" are a recent (1984: NewspaperArchive.com) genre of annoying humor, but before blondes were stereotyped as "dumb" the usual dismissive adjective was "dizzy." ? An OED cite refers to a "company of Dizzy Blondes" in 1889, but the phrase - and the boffo theatrical concept?combining ditz with bosoms?- is older than that: ? 1877 _Macon Telegraph and Messenger_ (Oct. 24) 4: The Dizzy Blondes. Next Monday evening the Dizzy Blondes will visit Macon and give an exhibition which, it is claimed, will exceed everything ever seen on the boards of Ralston Hall. The name of the troupe indicates the character of the "exhibition." ...[T]he applause which [ever] attends the performance resembles the roar of thunder or the deep chant of the mighty seas. ? [Ed. note: to the right is an advertising?column?stacked with repetitions of the phrase "DIZZY BLONDES."? It tells of "The greatest Sensation. House Packed from Pit to Dome at Every Performance. M'ME NINON DUCLO'S Famous and Original Troupe of Sensational?BLONDES, Living art [sic] Pictures and Grand Specialty Combination.... 20 BEAUTIFUL BLONDES 20 in the Latest Parisian Sensation, La Minuet, The Performance to conclude with the mirth-provoking Burlesque of the SEVEN BEAUTIES or, THE DIZZY BLONDES. ? [On Nov. 6, 1877, the same _Telegraph and Messenger_ editorialized sternly against?the "shameful lasciviousness, indecency, and downright wickedness of that performance," and gave thanks that the "filthy creatures" had left town under pressure from the Y.M.C.A.] ? 1877 _Dubuque Herald_ (Nov. 27) 3:? The Y.M.C.A. of Louisville...stopped the performances of Mlle. Ninon de L'Enclos' [sic] troupe of dizzy blondes.? ? 1878 _Fort Wayne Daily Sentinel_ (Jan. 5) 1: The movement on the "dizzy blonde" shows of Cincinnati was productive of discussion in the police board of that city Wednesday, as to the relative indecency of the waltz, as practiced in the "best society," and the can-can [as danced by dizzy blondes]. ? 1878 _Wheeling Daily Register_ (Aug. 15) 4: Charles Benton, general agent of May Fisk's Dizzy Blonds [sic], is in the city billing his troupe for the Washington Hall for next Monday night. ? Both NewspaperArchive.com and America's Historical Newspapers continue to report on "dizzy blondes," first with and later without reference to the pioneering terpsichoreans. ? The phrase appears?in lower case?as early as ? 1878 _Milwaukee Daily Sentinel_ (quoting _N.Y. Herald_) (Feb. 13) 2: Miss Fairbanks is not a dizzy blonde. ? The earliest explicitly "dumb blonde" I can discover was identified some years later: ? 1924 _Amarillo Globe_ (Nov. 28) 4: The gun...was given to me as a present by my dumb blonde with whom I'm keeping quite smart company. She is a true Texan. ? "Dumb blonde" becomes common after about 1926. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 19:24:41 2008 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:24:41 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101530.mBABlJlX032549@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here's another potentially good quote to come out of this situation, said by Jesse Jackson Jr: "It is impossible for someone on my behalf to have a conversation that would suggest any type of quid pro quo or any payments or offers," Jackson told ABC News. *"An impossibility to an absolute certainty."* http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ConductUnbecoming/story?id=6431739&page=1 WS >> >> Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = >> such constraint. >> =20 >> Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = >> the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = >> its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = >> important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that = >> important. >> =20 >> G.=20 >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: >> >> >> On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >>> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >>> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >>> languae? >> >> I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about >> language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. >> >> What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by >> things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- >> occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. >> >> I say wait ten years and let's see. >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 19:29:38 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:29:38 EST Subject: Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training ... Message-ID: The case is interesting because, while the things he is quoted as saying are reprehensible, nothing in the quotes that have been brought forth to date that I have seen are in themselves illegal. That is, he is neither offering a bribe nor accepting one--he is merely saying that he would like to make money on the deal. Whether this is an indirect speech act of soliciting a bribe depends very much on the context--whom he was addressing being of paramount imporatance. Note that he keeps saying, "I did not say anything that broke the law." If all that is true, then the prosecution might be able to use this as evidence of his state of mind to corroborate other evidence. But I suspect that he will defend himself by saying that he was just venting his frustrations. In a message dated 12/10/08 3:05:01 AM, DEBARON at ILLINOIS.EDU writes: > There's a new post on the Web of Language: > > Did indicted Illinois governor skip online ethics training that he? > mandated for all state employees? > > In 2003, Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich ordered mandatory online? > ethics training for all state employees. Illinois had a reputation for? > being a politically corrupt state, and Blagojevich was determined to? > put an end to that. He told USA Today, "To truly change the culture in? > state government, we need to ensure that everyone involved ? from the? > elected officials down to the mailroom clerks ? understands what the? > rules are and how they apply to our work as employees of the public." > > But apparently, the governor forgot to take the ethics training? > himself. That's why FBI agents arrested Blago on Dec. 9 for trying to? > sell the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Barack Obama and other? > acts of political corruption. According to? Patrick J. Fitzgerald,? > U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois (the same federal prosecutor who? > convicted Bushie Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair, while? > letting Karl Rove off the hook), Blagojevich's actions "would make? > Lincoln roll over in his grave." > > .... > > read the rest of this post on the Web of Language > > http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > Dennis Baron > Professor of English and Linguistics > Department of English > University of Illinois > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > > office: 217-244-0568 > fax: 217-333-4321 > > http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron > > read the Web of Language: > http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 10 19:42:03 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:42:03 -0500 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? Message-ID: Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" below? (And is it in the OED?) About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old 19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 21:22:00 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:22:00 -0500 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South Message-ID: I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been mispronouncing a very important term in that field. C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronouncing it! W. Really? Which one? C. "Di[p]thong." W. And how were you mispronouncing it? C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? C. "Di[p]thong"! W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? C. Right! W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not "di[p]thong," right? C. Exactly! W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. C. Okay. It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 10 21:13:03 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? In-Reply-To: <200812101942.mBAIGK7H032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" > below? (And is it in the OED?) > > About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which > caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote > >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old 19th-c. > >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' > > I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. > > A replied: > >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I always > >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows the > >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that was a ringer." > > So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in > _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will > achieve no answer"? Not in OED, but presumably an extension of the sense "An outsider or intruder; an imposter, spec. one who attaches himself to a political or other group to which he does not belong." Scattered usage for "ringer" = 'unanswerable question', 'trick question', or something similar: --- http://www.chicagolandmgclub.com/photos/MGrally07/ The forth bonus question was a ringer with no answer. --- http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080920182357AAxdZ3E Is it possible for a person to turn things around? Your question is probably a ringer, but I will pretend it is sincere. --- http://boards.chicagobears.com/forums/1/1251107/ShowThread.aspx That question was a "ringer" for us old farts (I'm 64). --- http://www.duke.edu/web/DRAGO/humor/gamer_if.html YOU MIGHT BE A GAMER IF... ..you've discovered that spare dice make good beanbag filler. ...you knew that that last question was a ringer: who has more dice than they can use? --- http://berniesayers.com/DowneIf.htm This question is a ringer. It's included in hopes that some enterprising newspaper or magazine reporter will step up... --- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Wed Dec 10 21:46:25 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:46:25 -0500 Subject: four-footed males, females, and children In-Reply-To: <200812092107.mB9BnJeV028429@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: four-footed males, females, and children > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> I have to say, Mark said it more clearly in fewer words: >>>>Or, at least, cow[female] is much >>>>better known than dog[male] >>> >>> That are the only grounds on which I can excuse Shortz. (But he has >>> exiled dog breeders and cow herders from his clientele.) >> >> I don't know - the use of "cow" to refer to other than female cattle >> drives me crazy, and I grew up on a dairy farm (I still live there, >> but we don't have dairy cattle any more - someone does raise beef >> cattle, though). > > Is there a singular of "beef cattle"? Cows, calves, bulls, and steers. Heifer, too, maybe, unless that's only a young dairy cow. > I'm a lifelong city boy; milk used to come in bottles, and now it > comes in cartons. I have both "cow"[female] and "cow"[nonspecific]. Having had this experience all too recently, there is a big difference between "a cow got loose" and "a bull got loose." We're pretty clear with everyone who is on or visits the farm - *never* go into a pasture with a bull in it. Cows are another thing. I suppose I can say "one of the cows got loose," but the field is going to be full of mostly or all cows, anyway. > How do you feel about "goose" and "duck": can they be generic for you, > or are they exclusively female (vs. "gander" and "drake")? No particular feeling, besides literary - I grew up on a dairy farm, only wild ducks and geese to be seen. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 10 21:51:43 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:51:43 -0500 Subject: more political language Message-ID: If you missed The Daily Show last night, there was an interesting debate between Jon Stewart and Mike Huckabee on the moral and legal aspects of same-sex marriage. The latter evidently holds semantic change as anathema on the level of abortion rights: see http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=213349&title=mike-huckabee-pt.-2 and especially the arguments starting around halfway through on why redefinition is intolerable. I'm sure Gov. Huckabee will be proud to assert that he is an eminently silly man (on the original definition, = 'holy, blessed'; cf. Ger. _selig_), although some might also see him as being nice (= 'stupid'; cf. Lat. _nescius_). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Wed Dec 10 22:12:22 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:12:22 -0500 Subject: Cupboard Food Message-ID: 'Just received this from our local 'freecyle' (freecycle.com) group: "I have 2 grocery bags of cupboard food; there are a lot of canned soups. . . " -- Google revealed a smallish bunch of 'cupboard food' hits, but most of them were for the likes of 'Shepherd's Cupboard Food Pantry', which really isn't saying, per se, _cupboard food_. -- This freecyle group is based in Binghamton NY. That tells us nothing the origin of the speaker. I though it a curious phrase -- the meaning of which is obvious; So it's curious mainly because I've never heard the phrase used before. dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 10 23:11:15 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:11:15 -0600 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South In-Reply-To: <200812102122.mBAHP1w2014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? I'm not sure which problem you are referring to, but I will say that most people in the field that I know go with "di[p]thong." Scot On 12/10/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of > about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the > course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our > respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of > the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler > (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. > > Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of > phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been > mispronouncing a very important term in that field. > > C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronouncing > it! > > W. Really? Which one? > > C. "Di[p]thong." > > W. And how were you mispronouncing it? > > C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." > > W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? > > C. "Di[p]thong"! > > W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should > be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? > > C. Right! > > W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using > that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not > "di[p]thong," right? > > C. Exactly! > > W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I > think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. > > C. Okay. > > It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I > *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." > > Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lisa.minnick at WMICH.EDU Thu Dec 11 00:43:21 2008 From: lisa.minnick at WMICH.EDU (Lisa Minnick) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:43:21 -0500 Subject: "he" and "he or she" Message-ID: In response to A message dated 12/9/2008 12:09:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time: The Emoluments Clause provides that its rule applies to any senator or representative, "during the Time for which he was elected." Perhaps the rule the Emoluments Clause does not apply to female U.S. Senators. Rosemarie wrote on 12/09/08: Much as I dislike Hillary, I can't imagine anyone will get away with trying to apply that logic. I learned in (approx.) 3rd grade that a generalized "he" should - be taken to mean "he or she." --- With all due respect to your third-grade teacher, over thirty years' worth of linguistic research indicates otherwise. First, what something supposedly "should be taken to mean" is often not at all how it is understood by hearers and readers. Second, generic 'he' is sexist and indefensible linguistically. Many academic and journalistic style guides now advise against its use. As demonstrated by Ann Bodine in 1975, generic 'he' and its promotion over the centuries represents in part an attempt to stigmatize the use of singular 'they' as a sex-indefinite, yet animate, third-person singular pronoun. (Bodine, "Androcentrism in prescriptive grammar: Singular 'they', sex-indefinite 'he', and 'he or she'," in Language in Society 4 and also anthologized in Deborah Cameron's recent collection, A Feminist Critique of Language.) Bodine cites a number of arguments made in favor of generic 'he' and the kind of sexist thinking that drove many of these arguments. For example: Poole (1646): "The Relative [pronoun] agrees with the Antecedent of the more worthy gender: as, the King and the Queen whom I honor. The Masculine gender is more worthy than the Feminine." Wilson (1560): "Let us kepe a natural order, and set the man before the woman for maners Sake." And "the worthier is preferred and set before. As a man is sette before a woman." Roberts (1967) considers the use of 'his or her' awkward and so advocates avoiding this "by following the convention that, grammatically, men are more important than women." Additionally, researchers have found that women and girls may feel excluded, and may in fact *be* excluded, by the use of (ostensibly) generic 'he' and 'man.' Spender (1980) catalogs some early work on this topic, including the following: Harrison, "Cro-Magnon Woman -- in Eclipse," in Science Teacher (April 1975) pp. 8-11. Schneider and Hacker, "Sex Role Imagery and the Use of Generic Man," in American Sociologist 8:1 (Feb 1973) pp. 12-18. Martyna, "Beyond the He/Man Approach: The Case for Language Change," Journal of Women in Culture and Society 5:3 (Spring 1980) pp. 482-93. Graham, "The Making of a Non-Sexist Dictionary," in Thorne and Henley (eds.), Language and Sex: Difference and Dominance (Newbury House, 1975). Graham documents numerous examples of pseudo-generic 'he' and 'man' (e.g. Erich Fromm remarks upon "[generic] man's vital interests," which he says include "life, food, access to females, etc."). In sum, there is a wide and deep body of research out there on generic 'he' and related topics. The early, groundbreaking research cited above will serve as a good introduction to these issues for anyone who is new to them and curious. Lisa -- Lisa Cohen Minnick Assistant Professor of English 923 Sprau Tower Western Michigan University Kalamazoo, Michigan 49008-5331 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 01:13:17 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:13:17 -0500 Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South In-Reply-To: <200812102311.mBAMusEa014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The "problem" that I was referring to is that of being so fully persuaded that you and everyone else are using the pronunciation X that not only do you fail to notice, in casual speech, that everyone else is actually using the pronunciation Y, but you also fail to hear any distinction between your X and everyone else's Y, even when it's clearly pointed out to you. The situation has been a staple of sitcoms since radio days. And my point is that it's not just for sitcoms. It happens in real life. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? > > I'm not sure which problem you are referring to, but I will say that most > people in the field that I know go with > "di[p]thong." > > Scot > > > > On 12/10/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "Diphthong" in the mouth of the South >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> I was chatting with Carol, a white linguistics prof (phonetics) of >> about my age (32) at UC Davis in the late 'Sixties, at a party. In the >> course of the conversation, it came out that Carol and I, despite our >> respective standard-sounding accents, were natives of the same part of >> the country, she from Shreveport, LA, a mere hoot and a holler >> (ca.35mi.) from my natal town of Marshall, TX. >> >> Laughing, she pointed out that, despite being a professor of >> phonetics, she had only recently come to realize that she had been >> mispronouncing a very important term in that field. >> >> C, Yes. After all this time, come to find out that I've been mispronounci= > ng >> it! >> >> W. Really? Which one? >> >> C. "Di[p]thong." >> >> W. And how were you mispronouncing it? >> >> C. Well, I've always been saying "di[p]thong." >> >> W. [confused] Ah, how should it be pronounced? >> >> C. "Di[p]thong"! >> >> W. [his head bugging] Oh, of course! Uh, you're saying that it should >> be "di[p]thong," right? And not "di[p]thong"? >> >> C. Right! >> >> W. Oh, wow! I'm glad that you brought that up! Because I've been using >> that same mispronunciation! So, it ought to be "di[p]thong" and not >> "di[p]thong," right? >> >> C. Exactly! >> >> W. [wondering, a la Richard Pryor: "Is the gull crayzih?"] Good. I >> think I've got it. Well, I'm going to get another beer. >> >> C. Okay. >> >> It was some five or so years later, while I was at M.I.T., that I >> *finally* flashed on the fact that the pronunciation is "di[f]thong." >> >> Have any other Southrons had a similar problem? >> >> -Wilson >> =96=96=96 >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gww at OLEMISS.EDU Thu Dec 11 03:22:35 2008 From: gww at OLEMISS.EDU (Gerald Walton) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:22:35 -0600 Subject: Store-Bought In-Reply-To: <200812062353.mB6BmaOB019813@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Got this today from somebody forwarding a list of "old phrases": Here's a phrase I heard all the time in my youth but never anymore - "store-bought." Of course, just about everything is store-bought these days. But once it was bragging material to have a store-bought dress or a store-bought bag of candy. gww ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From n2life4 at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 03:51:01 2008 From: n2life4 at GMAIL.COM (N2life4) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:51:01 -0700 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? Message-ID: One phrase I have heard is 'dead ringer' meaning that something - or someone - was exactly like the other one. "She was a "dead ringer" for Palin" (meaning Fey) In another example, a mistake is deliberately made to see if anyone is paying attention. A place where I once worked routinely put additional inexpensive items in a random customers order to test for #1 attention to details and #2 for honesty. The explantion was that they had "threw a ringer in to see if anyone would catch it. " J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel S. Berson" This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old >19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I >always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows >the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that >was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 04:44:58 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:44:58 -0500 Subject: Store-Bought In-Reply-To: <200812110322.mBAIGKld032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As a matter of fact, I heard a guy on the Judge [Name] show say "store-boughten" just today. Unfortunately, I wasn't paying sufficient attention to be able to provide even the name of the program. I vaguely wondered whether the white male speaker had intended to say "store-bought" rather than "store-boughten" and then dismissed it from my mind. Had I but known that the word would come up here today! -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Walton > Subject: Store-Bought > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Got this today from somebody forwarding a list of "old phrases": > > > Here's a phrase I heard all the time in my youth but never anymore - > "store-bought." Of course, just about everything is store-bought > these days. But once it was bragging material to have a store-bought > dress or a store-bought bag of candy. > > > gww > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 05:41:13 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:41:13 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJsL032549@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Needless to say! The "Eastside" police seemed not to be able to find any of the black after-hours joints - Missouri rolled up its sidewalks at 1:30a.m., hence the local saying, "Into the flivver and across the river!" - that openly operated there, neon signs, ads in Saint Louis's black newspapers, and all, even back in the day when East Saint Louis, today 99.44% black, was white enough to maintain a public-school system as segregated as any in Missouri, despite Illinois state law, paying lip-service to said law by siphoning the top athletes and the top scholars from the black schools to East Saint Louis High and leaving the dregs to attend Lincoln High. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >>know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >>pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >>GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >>Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, > > Illinois was presumably corrupt then also? > >>I never knew the name of >>any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >>known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >>was. > > But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long stretches. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 11 15:06:23 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:06:23 -0800 Subject: a hog-backed molligrubber Message-ID: Dept. of 'Twas Ever Thus: ? 1880 Nat. Police Gaz. (Aug. 28) 2: It was on a Sound boat, and the mate was evidently annoyed about something. ?Carry it forward,? he roared. ?Carry it forward, you lunk-headed son of a sculpin, or I hope to be gee whizzley gaul dusted to jude if I don?t maul the dad slammed head off?n ye with a capstan bar, ye hog-backed molligrubber, ye!? ?And the deck hand looked up in profound admiration and said, ?By George, Cap, if I had your culcher I wouldn?t be a runnin? as mate for no man in these waters; I?d be commandin? a boat of my own.? ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Dec 11 15:22:09 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:22:09 -0800 Subject: honest politicians Message-ID: The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. attributed to Simon Cameron but?sometimes (though?not lately)?to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible? ? 1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, when he is once bought, stays bought. ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:26:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:26:25 -0800 Subject: substitution of X with Y In-Reply-To: <200812101730.mBAHP1Eu014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ... Though I grew up with only "substitute X for Y," I knew that > German > and other languages had something like "substitute Y with X," which > hung me up when I first came across it, since it required "reverse > interpretation," so to speak. Then, I started to see something similar > in English (in BrE first?), where, IMO at the time, it was an even > worse problem, since it really interferes with my automatic > understanding of English. encroached "substitute" -- "substitute OLD with/by NEW" -- has been around for quite some time, and i don't think it's particularly british. its virtue, as i explained in one of my old postings, is that it puts OLD before NEW (yes, i know, "replace OLD with/by NEW" also does this). if you attend to the prepositions, the meanings are clear. a true reversal occurs in "substitute OLD for NEW" -- reversed "substitute" -- which is both recently innovated and originally british (though it's been spreading to the u.s.). you'd think that this usage would be drastically confusing, but in context the intentions of the speaker or writer are almost always clear. (in fact, people detect occurrences of reversed "substitute" by divining the intentions of the speaker or writer and then realizing that the syntactic argumen'ts are, from their point of view, in the wrong order.) arnold > > > Now, having mastered my initially-negative emotional response - like, > it's about *dialects*, whether academic or rural, no? - I was just > kinda, sorta wondering how far people for whom this construction is > natural are willing to take this "innovation." > > Though I meant no harm, I apologize. (This is as close as I can come > to the hated, extremely-peeving, "*if* I've done anything that someone > may have been injured by," etc. That's *so* bleeping weasling! It's > makes it seem as though the problem is the injured party's fault for > being overly sensitive, even unmanly and not able to take it. Either > apologize for real or tell them to get stuffed.) > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Arnold Zwicky > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: substitution of X with Y >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Dec 10, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: substitution of X with Y >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "... substitution of 'call in sick' with 'call in gay' ..." >>> >>> I don't know that I've ever seen this construction before. Would >>> "... >>> substitution of 'call in sick' _by_ 'call in gay' ..." also be >>> grammatical? How about "... substitution of 'call in gay' for >>> 'call in >>> sick' ..."? >> >> we've discussed these uses of "substitute" (plus another, labeled >> "reversed substitute") many times here on ADS-L. from a posting of >> mine from 10/26/04: >> >> using [david] denison's (hopefully transparent) labels OLD and NEW, >> the original verb usages were: >> (1) substitute NEW for OLD (NEW be substituted for OLD) >> (2) replace OLD by/with NEW (OLD be replaced by/with NEW) >> >> "substitute" then encroaches on "replace" territory, giving the >> proscribed (but very widespread and unambiguous): >> (3) substitute OLD by/with NEW (OLD be substituted by/with NEW) >> >> ---- >> >> as i pointed out several times in these discussions, MWDEU has a nice >> discussion of "encroached substitute" as in (3). >> >> encroached "substitute" is now so frequent, including in material >> from >> "good writers" in serious contexts, that i'm not sure it can fairly >> be >> labeled as non-standard. >> >> to be fair to wilson, as far as i can tell he wasn't a participant in >> these years of discussion of encroached and reversed "substitute" on >> ADS-L. he might simply have skipped over these threads as not being >> of interest. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:34:08 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:34:08 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE Message-ID: In The Yale Book of Quotations I cite Mark Twain's 1890-91 notebook for this. Thanks for finding earlier evidence! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: honest politicians The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. attributed to Simon Cameron but sometimes (though not lately) to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible? 1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, when he is once bought, stays bought. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 11 15:27:21 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:27:21 -0500 Subject: W=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres Message-ID: German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' (gathering of people over 30) http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 15:58:18 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:58:18 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101530.mBABlJmi014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, around these parts, it's pronounced "blahGOYyevich." Barbara Barbara Need Chicago On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't > know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to > pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah > GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in > Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of > any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always > known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County > was. > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = > > such constraint. > > =20 > > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = > > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = > > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = > > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that > = > > important. > > =20 > > G.=20 > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: > > > > > > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > > >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any > >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political > >> languae? > > > > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about > > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. > > > > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by > > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- > > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. > > > > I say wait ten years and let's see. > > > > Grant Barrett > > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = > > =20 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 15:59:17 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111537.mBBBrs5W009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:27:21 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' > http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html > > German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' > (gathering of people over 30) > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html > > Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) > http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html Ah, you got there faster. 'Lebensmensch' is IMHO the most interesting of the three, by far. In particular it is not always used in a romantic sense, and not always in a gay sense. After the extreme right-wing politician Joerg Haider died in a car accident, his political successor Stefan Petzner referred to him as his Lebensmensch. However, the press also uses the word for Haider's widow, and even mother. Meanwhile in the German press, we find Lebensmensch succeeding somewhat 'Lebensabschnittspartner' (life-segment partner), which was the somewhat jocular term my generation, in our 20s, might have used to refer to our lovers (presuming a live-in arrangement). 'Lebensmench' also gets around the gender-neutrality problem for a life partner of intentionally indeterminate gender: Of course 'Lebenspartner' (life partner) is perfectly possible and common in German, but it can only apply to men. As a woman, I can be a Mensch (human being) but not a Partner -- I'd be a Partnerin. Even though both 'Mensch' and 'Partner' are both masculine nouns, their gendered status is different. The Austrian ones are in fact spectacularly good this time round. The second place was taken by 'Krocha', a Viennese dialect youth slang term the meaning of which is best conveyed via an illustration: http://bureau.comandantina.com/archivos/2008/03/krocha.php . In the third place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). We're still awaiting the Unwort of the year. Cheers, Chris who doesn't think 'Gammelfleischparty' is new or particularly relevant right now ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 11 15:59:36 2008 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:59:36 -0600 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812101600.mBABlJAu032546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Still is. Barbara Barbara Need Chicago On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 12/10/2008 10:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I've always > >known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County > >was. > > But his name was easier to pronounce, and remained the same for long > stretches. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 16:05:08 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:05:08 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:58 AM -0600 12/11/08, Barbara Need wrote: >Well, around these parts, it's pronounced "blahGOYyevich." > >Barbara > With stress on the "GOY". (Corrupt Jewish politicians like to think of themselves as not quite so dumb.) LH >On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I agree with Gerald. I knew that Illinois had a governor, but I didn't >> know his name. Professional newsreaders don't even know how to >> pronounce his name, apparently. They've been calling him "blah >> GOYyevich." The FBI calls him "blag@ YAYvich." Even when I lived in >> Saint Louis and partied in East Saint Louis, I never knew the name of >> any governor of Illinois other than Adlai Stevenson. OTOH, I've always >> known who the ruling lord mayor of Chicago and baron of Cook County >> was. >> >> -Wilson >> --- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> > Subject: Re: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Grant is an expert, so he needs to proceed cautiously. I'm under no = >> > such constraint. >> > =20 >> > Prediction: It does not have legs. It will be frequently quoted, but = >> > the expletives prevent it's being quoted in full, and that will hamper = >> > its longevity. Besides, I don't think Blagojevich is all that = >> > important. Yes, I know he's the governor, but still, he's just not that >> = >> > important. >> > =20 >> > G.=20 >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > >> > Original message from Grant Barrett, Wed 12/10/2008 7:18 AM: >> > >> > >> > On Dec 10, 2008, at 07:53, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> > >> >> I need a quick read on whether this one is likely to have legs. Any >> >> opinions? Grant, what is your judgment as an authority on political >> >> languae? >> > >> > I long since stopped trying to make serious prognostications about >> > language. I'm the guy who thought "podcast" was a loser. >> > >> > What I do know is that "of the year" lists tend to be over-colored by >> > things happening at the end of the year, so it's best to look at late- >> > occurring entries with more skepticism than entries from, say, February. >> > >> > I say wait ten years and let's see. >> > >> > Grant Barrett >> > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org = >> > =20 >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 16:16:45 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:16:45 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=B6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111559.mBBBlLQN018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:59:17 -0500, Chris Waigl wrote: > [stuff riddled with bad spelling and missing words snipped] Um, sorry. I'm blaming a head cold. You'll know what I meant. Best, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 11 17:06:15 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500 Subject: W=?iso-8859-1?Q?=E4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <49ab318f3b3e6fc429dbe7aa9f844710@lascribe.net> Message-ID: At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >In the third >place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for the German.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 18:48:08 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:48:08 -0800 Subject: today's (bilingual) holiday pun Message-ID: e-mail from the Lands' End folks, withe the subject line: Fleece Navidad! FREE SHIPPING & 20% off fleece, boots ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 18:51:21 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:51:21 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111706.mBBBlLZf018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >>In the third >>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). > > Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this > agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for > the German.) OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. The term was coined some time in September 2008 by the leader of the Austrian Green Party, Alexander Van der Bellen. This was shortly before the 2008 parliamentary election. The election had become necessary because the ?VP (classic large right-wing party) decided to leave the ruling coalition it was in partnering with the SP? (classic large social-democrat party, Austrian style). This coalition ("red-black") had become quite unpopular as well. So Austria went into an election with, it turned out, 5 parties that would get over 10% of the vote, and no clear suggestions who would be forming a stable government, at least not one including the SP? (which had been and would become again the largest group in the national council). These 5 parties range from extreme-right (BZ?) via hard-right (FP?), right (?VP) and left (SP?) to left-Green (Green Party, no abbreviation). Shortly before the election, in a move that was widely perceived as populist, and on the background of widespread exasperation with the political squabbling and lack of actual, solid and effective policy suggestion, the SP? minority government made public its plan to abolish VAT on food, but with a list of precisely 12 'luxury foodstuffs' that would be excluded from the tax exemption: Kaviar * Langusten (langoustes) * gestopfte Leber (foie gras) * Hummer (lobster) * Safran (saffron) * Tr?ffel (truffles) * Wachteleier (quail eggs) <----------- ! * Schnecken (snails) * Austern (oysters) * Strausseneier (ostrich eggs) * Krabben (crabs) * Garnelen (shrimp) This was widely ridiculed -- and other luxury food items were cited all over the Austrian blogosphere (Kobe beef, moose cheese...), which would under the proposal be exempt. The ridicule reached its peak when the FP?, perceived as an impossible coalition partner for the SP?, made it known they were agreeing with this proposal. Van der Bellen's bon mot therefore refers to an understanding between two unlikely political partners based on their common take on how to tax quail eggs. Phew. Chris Waigl PS: Austria, predictably, went back to an SP?/?VP coalition after the election. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Thu Dec 11 18:52:15 2008 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:52:15 -0200 Subject: Q: Meaning of "ringer"? In-Reply-To: <200812110347.mBAMusSe014160@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At the monastery the bell ringer dies. The abbot puts an ad in the paper for a bell ringer. Next day, one candidate shows up and asks to see the abbot. Abbot looks at him and says, "But you have no arms. How do you ring the bell?" Candidate says, "I'll show you". They go up to the bell tower. The candidate starts running toward the bell and smashes into it with his face. The most beautiful tones ever heard emanate from the bell and the abbot hires him on the spot. Over the next few weeks the people of the parish are treated to the most beautiful bell music they have ever heard. Then, one day, the bell ringer runs toward the bell, misses, and goes flying over the buttresses into the square below. A crowd gathers. A woman says, "Who is that?" A man in the crowd says, "I don't know, but his face sure rings a bell." So the monastery needs another bell ringer and the abbot puts another ad in the paper. The next day, an armless man shows up who looks just like the deceased. The abbot, aghast, says, "But, but... how?" "Ah, says the new candidate. Your former bell ringer was my twin brother and we have the same talent. So the abbot hires him and, once again, the people of the parish are treated to the most beautiful bell music ever. Then, one day, the new bell ringer runs toward the bell, misses, and goes flying over the buttresses into the square below. A crowd gathers. A woman says, "Who is that?" A man in the crowd says, "I don't know, but he's a dead ringer for the other guy." ______________________________________________ The man who always waves the flag often waives what it stands for. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of N2life4 Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU One phrase I have heard is 'dead ringer' meaning that something - or someone - was exactly like the other one. "She was a "dead ringer" for Palin" (meaning Fey) In another example, a mistake is deliberately made to see if anyone is paying attention. A place where I once worked routinely put additional inexpensive items in a random customers order to test for #1 attention to details and #2 for honesty. The explantion was that they had "threw a ringer in to see if anyone would catch it. " J Can anyone help me understand the meaning and derivation of "ringer" below? (And is it in the OED?) About a series of email messages on an odd question but one which caught the fancy of several persons, person A wrote >This is like the best of those great weird ringers in old >19th-c. >issues of 'Notes & Queries.' I asked what "ringer" meant, wondering about the game of horseshoes. A replied: >The real answer is that I'm probably misusing it, but I >always >associate it with pub trivia contests in which nobody knows >the >answer, and in the silence the announcer says, "Okay, that >was a ringer." So I now wonder, does "ringer" mean "A question [e.g., query in _Notes and Queries_] that is extremely esoteric and perhaps will achieve no answer"? American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Thu Dec 11 18:56:10 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:56:10 -0500 Subject: W=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A4rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <200812111851.mBBBrsRK009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah I should have know ADS-L can't deal with utf-8 non-ascii. For ? read O-umlaut. Chris On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:51:21 -0500, Chris Waigl wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" > wrote: >> >> At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: >>>In the third >>>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). >> >> Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this >> agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for >> the German.) > > OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. > snip ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:22:53 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:22:53 -0800 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log Message-ID: AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:22:33 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:22:33 -0500 Subject: today's (bilingual) holiday pun In-Reply-To: <76D29BFB-18E7-4071-B79E-15ABE45228A3@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:48 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >e-mail from the Lands' End folks, withe the subject line: > > Fleece Navidad! FREE SHIPPING & 20% off fleece, boots Hey, that e-mail sent me right to their web site this morning, and I'll probably end up ordering one. Who says clever advertising doesn't work? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 11 19:43:16 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:43:16 -0500 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:22 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Actually, it's http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/; the LL post above is the one from last summer that discusses the noun-noun compounds that you can link to when reading about those bulgogi virgins and others. It's all good. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 11 19:55:15 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:55:15 -0500 Subject: W=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: <7d781708f7c3dd2c421d74ed7a426bbd@lascribe.net> Message-ID: Lovely! And I read it all! The luxury tax sounds like something out of 18th-century New England Puritan jeremiads, only those would more likely have been aimed at luxurious clothes. And in early New England lobster was so common it was fed to gaol prisoners. By the way, ADS-L can handle the common (West European) accents, if one uses (is given?) Latin-1 encoding. See my Subject line (and add an apology for using ? previously -- I was so concentrating on getting the umlaut that I mistyped the letter!). Joel At 12/11/2008 01:51 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:06:15 -0500, "Joel S. Berson" >wrote: > > > > At 12/11/2008 10:59 AM, Chris Waigl wrote: > >>In the third > >>place, we get Wachteleierkoalition (quail-egg coalition). > > > > Now you've got me curious. What's the background for this > > agglomeration? (No hits on Google, for the English; thousands for > > the German.) > >OK, this is going to be slightly complicated. Bear with me, or hit N. > >The term was coined some time in September 2008 by the leader of the >Austrian Green Party, Alexander Van der Bellen. This was shortly before the >2008 parliamentary election. The election had become necessary because the >?VP (classic large right-wing party) decided to leave the ruling coalition >it was in partnering with the SP? (classic large social-democrat party, >Austrian style). This coalition ("red-black") had become quite unpopular as >well. So Austria went into an election with, it turned out, 5 parties that >would get over 10% of the vote, and no clear suggestions who would be >forming a stable government, at least not one including the SP? (which had >been and would become again the largest group in the national council). >These 5 parties range from extreme-right (BZ?) via hard-right (FP?), >right (?VP) and left (SP?) to left-Green (Green Party, no abbreviation). >Shortly before the election, in a move that was widely perceived as >populist, and on the background of widespread exasperation with the >political squabbling and lack of actual, solid and effective policy >suggestion, the SP? minority government made public its plan to abolish >VAT on food, but with a list of precisely 12 'luxury foodstuffs' that would >be excluded from the tax exemption: Kaviar > >* Langusten (langoustes) >* gestopfte Leber (foie gras) >* Hummer (lobster) >* Safran (saffron) >* Tr?ffel (truffles) >* Wachteleier (quail eggs) <----------- ! >* Schnecken (snails) >* Austern (oysters) >* Strausseneier (ostrich eggs) >* Krabben (crabs) >* Garnelen (shrimp) > >This was widely ridiculed -- and other luxury food items were cited all >over the Austrian blogosphere (Kobe beef, moose cheese...), which would >under the proposal be exempt. The ridicule reached its peak when the FP?, >perceived as an impossible coalition partner for the SP?, made it known >they were agreeing with this proposal. Van der Bellen's bon mot therefore >refers to an understanding between two unlikely political partners based on >their common take on how to tax quail eggs. > >Phew. > >Chris Waigl > >PS: Austria, predictably, went back to an SP?/?VP coalition after the >election. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:09:32 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:09:32 -0800 Subject: ADS-L on Language Log In-Reply-To: <200812111943.mBBBrsUu009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: ADS-L on Language Log > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 11:22 AM -0800 12/11/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Actually, it's http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/; the LL post > above is the one from last summer that discusses the noun-noun > compounds that you can link to when reading about those bulgogi > virgins and others. It's all good. ack. i copied the wrong URI. should be: AZ, 12/11/08: Gay day (and virgins): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=902 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Dec 11 21:40:57 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: progressista (NYT, 1872) Message-ID: >From Gawker: http://gawker.com/5107770/trend+seeking-new-york-times-was-adding-+ista-to-words-130-years-ago "Progressista" was evidently inspired by "progresista", referring to a member of Spain's Progressive Party in the mid-19th century. Not sure where Gawker got the idea that "recessionista" is a NYT coinage. Safire and others have said it was coined by economist Larry Kudlow in 2007, though WordSpy has a citation in an earlier sense from 2001: http://www.wordspy.com/words/recessionista.asp --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 00:39:34 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:39:34 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812111535.mBBBlLgO008829@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Older still . . . _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, 1866; pg. 3; col A "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is bought, stays bought." " I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:34 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: TWAIN QUOTE > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: TWAIN QUOTE > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > In The Yale Book of Quotations I cite Mark Twain's 1890-91 > notebook for this. Thanks for finding earlier evidence! > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:22 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: honest politicians > > The earliest I've seen of this immortal dictum, usu. > attributed to Simon Cameron but sometimes (though not lately) > to Thomas B. Reed. Who was truly responsible? > > 1884 _Kansas City Eve. Star_ (Dec. 10) 2: According to a > distinguished authority, an honest politician is one who, > when he is once bought, stays bought. > > JL > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 00:54:13 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:54:13 -0500 Subject: antedate: vog (volcanic smog), 1991 Message-ID: My sister, a medical transcriptionist, encountered the word "vog", a portmanteau of "volcanic smog", and sent it to me. It's not in OED or M-W. "vog volcan*", without quotes, gets about 50k raw ghits. It shows up once in the archives -- posted, not surprisingly, by the inexhaustible Barry Popik: >>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002C&L=ADS-L&P=R2568&I=-3 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:06:44 EST Subject: Coinages (part ten) I think it's part ten. This continues a series of checking the word "coined" on computer databases. These may or may not be correct. This is from Readers' Guide Abstracts 1983-2000, which yielded 224 hits. 6 May 1995, SCIENCE, pp. 285-6--Hawaiians have coined the name vog, for volcanic smog, to describe the problem. <<< This poster presentation -- http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/MET/Faculty/businger/poster/vog/ Concentration and dispersion modeling of the Kilauea plume -- cites a 1991 use -- >>> Morrow, J.W. (1991c): Volcanic effects on the elemental composition of inhalable particulates in Hilo and Captain Cook. Vog and Laze Seminar, Hilo, Hawaii. <<< -- which is listed in the Hawaiian Collection Acquisitions List (Jan.-June 1996) of the University of Hawai`i: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~speccoll/hawaiiacq696n.html >>> University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, Hawaii: [The Center; 991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. <<< http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Volcanic_gases.html has definitions of "vog" and "laze" (< "lava" + "haze"). The search also turned up this cute URL, for "Important Information about VOG" (Office of the Governor, State of Hawai`i): http://hawaii.gov/gov/vog Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 01:07:39 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:07:39 -0500 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812101804.mBABlJlN032548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This looks like a new case of V + up 'create or summon by V-ing'. Cf. "conjure up", "work up" (a proposal, etc.), "make up" (a story, etc.). Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: > > Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile > parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to > the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I > asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John > asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." > GWW > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 01:10:49 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:10:49 -0500 Subject: antedate: vog (volcanic smog), 1991 In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812111654k734b8b6fk790b6d98a6e27f0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, > Hawaii: [The Center; 991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. Oops, copy-and-paste error (I dropped a "1"). That should be University of Hawaii at Hilo. Vog and Laze Seminar, 29 July 1991. Hilo, Hawaii: [The Center; 1991]. TD883.5.H3 V64 1991. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 01:19:13 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:19:13 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120048.mBBLu3PP018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, > 1866; pg. 3; col A > > "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] > " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is > bought, stays bought." " > > I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 Proquest Doc ID 83458476 Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by ProQuest as "...Corraption") Also here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 04:37:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:37:30 -0500 Subject: eggcorn alert: forgiving those who trustpass against us Message-ID: I just came across an instance of "trust passing" and found a bunch more by googling e.g. "no trustpassing", "arrested for trust passing" or vandalism + "trust passing" to eliminate the false positives that actually refer to a trust passing to the next generation and so on. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Dec 12 11:08:34 2008 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:08:34 -0500 Subject: More re: fleece Message-ID: Land's End is really pushing their fleece collection--earlier in the fall they had a campaign saying Give fleece a chance. Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Dec 12 13:16:00 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:16:00 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: >> >> _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, >> 1866; pg. 3; col A >> >> "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] >> " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is >> bought, stays bought." " >> >> I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 > Proquest Doc ID 83458476 > Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by > ProQuest as "...Corraption") > Also here: > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE > > > --Ben Zimmer FWIW, a somewhat-related use from 1838, The Extra Globe, Containing Political Discussions, Documentary Proofs &C. v. 4, Washington p240 The article speaks of Mr. Bond, an attorney for a branch of the Bank of the United States, who together with his "ragocratic coadjutors" assume one belongs to a department "body and soul." He "rendered little service and necessarily considered himself 'bought up, bought up'--and that was not all. Lawyer as he is, he stays bought up ? simply because he thinks his interest would not justify a voluntary change; or, rather, because no one but the Bank ever thought him worth buying." http://books.google.com/books?id=lgIbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240&dq=%22stays+bought%22+date:0-1838&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA240,M1 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 15:20:52 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:20:52 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... Message-ID: Judge David Young: "And now you two have parted, have separated from each other? Thirty-ish black female speaker: "Aw, we _BIN done did_ that, your honor!" -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:11:51 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:11:51 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... In-Reply-To: <200812121520.mBCBsSJD011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I forgot to add that the couple is from Saint Louis, as evidenced by: Patrernity-test laboratory representative: [Name], with scientific certainty, is _not_ the father of child1. [Name], with scientific certainty, is _not_ the father of child2. [Name], a thirtyish, black male speaker: "Aw, man! That's cold-blooded, right thurr [D^r]! I've been aware of the pronunciation of /-&r/ as [-^r] since ca.1990, when I heard it used by black St. Louisans on various trash-TV reality shows. That is to say, though I grew up in Saint Louis, I haven't lived there since 1962. Hence, I have no idea when this shift began. Saint Louis-born rapper, Howard Bailey, Jr., in had a hit in 2003 with his song, _Right Thurr_, under his nom de rap, "Chingy.". -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE BIN ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judge David Young: > > "And now you two have parted, have separated from each other? > > Thirty-ish black female speaker: > > "Aw, we _BIN done did_ that, your honor!" > > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:06:08 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:06:08 -0500 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120129.mBBBrsra009170@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: >> >> _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, October 17, >> 1866; pg. 3; col A >> >> "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author cited] >> " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, when he is >> bought, stays bought." " >> >> I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 > Proquest Doc ID 83458476 > Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" (misspelled by > ProQuest as "...Corraption") > Also here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE Barry Popik has posted an entry on his site: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/honest_politician_when_bought_stays_bought/ He's got the 1866 cite as well as an earlier, though less canonical, example from the Times: ---- 5 December 1865, New York (NY) Times, pg. 4: FRIENDS IN NEED.?HECKER'S radical organs began to hedge yesterday. His morning organ, leaving HECKER out of account, proceeded to adjure the electors to vote for the man they thought most likely to render faithful service to the city. The evening Hecker organ occupied itself with a defence of Mr. ROBERTS against the aspersions cast on hischaracter by Copperheads, and closed with the announcement that "the best experts predict confidently the election of Roberts." This, we supposed, is what may be called backing one's friends. POOR HECKER! Doubtless, he pays enough for friendship. But the trouble apparently is that his friends wont stay bought. He will go to bed to-night a wiser, if not a happier man. ---- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 16:35:24 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:35:24 -0500 Subject: Talk You Up In-Reply-To: <200812120107.mBBIiJ3p008828@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Speak of the devil and he shall appear," to coin a phrase. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Talk You Up > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This looks like a new case of V + up 'create or summon by V-ing'. > Cf. "conjure up", "work up" (a proposal, etc.), "make up" (a story, etc.). > > Mark Mandel > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Gerald Walton wrote: >> >> Yesterday, while it was raining hard, I told people at an automobile >> parts store I would return this morning for a battery. When I got to >> the place today, a young woman said, "Well, we talked you up." I >> asked the meaning, and she said, "Well, about fifteen minutes John >> asked me whether that man had returned, and now here you are." >> GWW >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 16:35:41 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:35:41 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812120129.mBBLu3St018120@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Note that the article also antedates "sugaring" = "bribing"; OED has 1891. OED has "the needful" and "stuff" in the sense of money, but not with the specific sense of a bribe. OED has "swag" as the sense of ill-gotten money, but again, not specifically as a bribe. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:19 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: > > > > _Daily Evening Bulletin_, (San Francisco, CA) Wednesday, > October 17, > > 1866; pg. 3; col A > > > > "Political Corruption in England " [from the NY Times, no author > > cited] " "I call a man honest," said a New Jersey politician, "who, > > when he is bought, stays bought." " > > > > I cannot find the corresponding story in ProQuest NY Times. > > New York Times, Sep. 8, 1866, p. 4, col. 6 Proquest Doc ID > 83458476 Title is "An Astonishing Display of Corruption" > (misspelled by ProQuest as "...Corraption") Also here: > http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A02E3D7133DE53 BBC4053DFBF66838D679FDE > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 12 16:46:08 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:46:08 -0500 Subject: More re: fleece In-Reply-To: <31614903.2331229080114184.JavaMail.root@zimbra.wayne.edu> Message-ID: At 6:08 AM -0500 12/12/08, Geoff Nathan wrote: >Land's End is really pushing their fleece collection--earlier in the >fall they had a campaign saying > > Give fleece a chance. > > > >Geoff They could see if Blagojevich would be interested in being a spokesman; he knows from fleece and probably doesn't have too many other career options at the moment. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 16:58:49 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:58:49 -0600 Subject: TWAIN QUOTE (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121616.mBCBsSQf011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another non-canonical cite: "Buying up Pennsylvanians." New York Daily Times (1851-1857); Sep 29, 1856; pg. 4 col 3. "If they are to be bought up so cheaply they will not stay bought long enough, we imagine, to do any good to their purchasers." > Barry Popik has posted an entry on his site: > > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/honest > _politician_when_bought_stays_bought/ > > He's got the 1866 cite as well as an earlier, though less > canonical, example from the Times: > > ---- > 5 December 1865, New York (NY) Times, pg. 4: > FRIENDS IN NEED.-HECKER'S radical organs began to hedge > yesterday. His morning organ, leaving HECKER out of account, > proceeded to adjure the electors to vote for the man they > thought most likely to render faithful service to the city. > The evening Hecker organ occupied itself with a defence of > Mr. ROBERTS against the aspersions cast on hischaracter by > Copperheads, and closed with the announcement that "the best > experts predict confidently the election of Roberts." This, > we supposed, is what may be called backing one's friends. POOR HECKER! > Doubtless, he pays enough for friendship. But the trouble > apparently is that his friends wont stay bought. He will go > to bed to-night a wiser, if not a happier man. > ---- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Fri Dec 12 17:05:50 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:05:50 -0500 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 Message-ID: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 are here http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/08words.htm . It's as usual a top-ten list based on web searches. 1. bailout and 2-10: socialism maverick bipartisan trepidation precipice rogue misogyny turmoil Not bad, as a list of themes for 2008 in the US. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Dec 12 17:09:23 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:09:23 -0600 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121636.mBCBsSVr011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html In the second link, editor John Simpson says: "What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Dec 12 17:37:26 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:37:26 -0500 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065ED72F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 12/12/2008 12:09 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > >The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. >http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html >http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html > >In the second link, editor John Simpson says: > >"What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails >to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 >screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " > >He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' >worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) He has to put it into writing before he can put it into the OED. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 12 17:48:18 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:48:18 -0500 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812121705.mBCBlHIr013284@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > > Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 are here > http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/08words.htm . It's as usual a top-ten > list based on web searches. "As usual" except for 2006 and 2007, when it was determined by an online vote. In 2006 the selection was open to any candidates, resulting in the Colbert Nation swamping the voting with "truthiness". In 2007 they let people pick from 20 finalists, including some non-dictionary items from M-W's Open Dictionary project, and that resulted in "w00t" being selected. Evidently they're now done with their experiments in lexico-democracy. > 1. bailout > > and 2-10: > > socialism > maverick > bipartisan > trepidation > precipice > rogue > misogyny > turmoil > > Not bad, as a list of themes for 2008 in the US. > > Chris Waigl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 12 19:14:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812121709.mBCBp06J013526@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I prefer "screen's worth," too. But, WTF, I can see regarding "screensworth" as being like "spoonful." "Different strokes," etc., to coin a phrase. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: New OED notes (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > The OED has release another quarter's worth of revisions. > http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/newwords0812.html > http://dictionary.oed.com/news/updates/revisions0812.html > > In the second link, editor John Simpson says: > > "What that list, extracted from all of the entries in the range, fails > to show is that the range includes the monumental prefix re- (69 > screensworth of material on the OED's editorial computer system). " > > He uses "screensworth" as a single word. I'd have written "screens' > worth". (and note that "screensworth" is not in the OED.) > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Dec 12 20:09:13 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:09:13 -0500 Subject: Most Notable Quotations of 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 02:04, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> I think we might have some late-breaking contenders. Like this one: > > "I've got this thing and it's [bleep]ing golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just > not giving it up for [bleep]in' nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and > I can always use it. I can parachute me there." I still don't know if it has legs, but the "bleeping" from it has made an place of small size: http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/the-bleepin-ascendancy/ Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 13 13:27:09 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:27:09 +0000 Subject: Merriam-Webster Words of the Year 2008 In-Reply-To: <200812121758.mBCBsScx011410@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 12 Dec 2008, at 17:48, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > > "As usual" except for 2006 and 2007, when it was determined by an > online vote. In 2006 the selection was open to any candidates, > resulting in the Colbert Nation swamping the voting with "truthiness". > In 2007 they let people pick from 20 finalists, including some > non-dictionary items from M-W's Open Dictionary project, and that > resulted in "w00t" being selected. Evidently they're now done with > their experiments in lexico-democracy. Thanks for he correction. The experiments must have escaped me. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 13:47:54 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:47:54 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" Message-ID: I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better dead than Red." Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 13 19:58:36 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:58:36 -0500 Subject: StL BE [D^r] : non-sE [Dar] :: "clerk" [kl^rk] : "Cl[a]rk" [klark]? [NT] Message-ID: [NT] ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 13 23:53:27 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:53:27 -0500 Subject: WOTY candidate for most outrageous category? Message-ID: ABC network news tonight had a segment on the "hot new trend" called _sexting_. 92K google hits, including these write-ups: http://www.switched.com/2008/12/10/sexting-from-your-cell-phone-is-hot-new-flirting-trend-study/ http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0508/520195.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 14 08:18:05 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:18:05 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 14 13:46:27 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:46:27 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" Message-ID: I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. And the date is correct. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shapiro, Fred" To: Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" >I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >dead than Red." > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 14 13:56:36 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:56:36 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <200812140828.mBDC8B3w012623@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My apologies for the formatting problems with the post. My mail program reverts to HTML automatically when there is any formatting and I did not try to prevent it. Since some of the messages appear to come through formatted, I simply failed to anticipate the problem. (I left the quote commands in the text to identify quoted text.) Below is the stripped version. I also wanted to add that there is also an attempt to explain "filet americain" on Yahoo Answers. There are two relevant comments in this amateur etymology. One suggests something that I had assumed--FA is a finer grind than ST and has flavoring agents added prior to packaging. Two others are variants on standard urban legends--one that Americans are such carnivores that they will eat any kind of meat and the other claims cites a popular site that claims that origins of ST are Russian, post-Mongol-invasion. Best I can tell, both are demonstrably false. Victor wrote: Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography:
In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs "Finnish meatballs". It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a Greek fellow about my description of a particular beverage as Turkish coffee. He was quite certain that it was *Greek coffee*, thank you very much.
Another item this brings to mind for me is "filet americain" in the Netherlands ("americaine" in Belgium, apparently). For example
The one I liked was *filet americaine* in Belgium. Turned out to be raw hamburger with some onions and other stuff on it, spread on a baguette. Then there was *sauce americaine* as one of the six million things to put on french fries, and that was basically a ketchup/mayo mix.
From what I understood from Dutch food labels, this is not quite correct. "Filet americain(e)" certainly contains raw ground beef, but if that were all it had (with some condiments on the side), it would have been labeled "steak tartare" (not to be confused with "bief tartaar", which is just high quality ground beef, often packaged in small hamburger-style discs, but meant for cooking). Steak tartare, however, is labeled as such in Dutch supermarkets. The difference between "steak tartare" and "filet americain natuur" escapes me. For Dutch speakers, there is a whole Dutch Wiki page (and a second one that clarifies it further). But I digress. The point is that, despite the name and like the English-language term "French fries", there is no apparent connection between the geographic identification in the food term and the food's actual geographic origins. This is slightly different from "Swedish meatballs" and "Greek coffee". And the significance of the "tartare" (or "tartar" or "tartaar") does not escape me in this context. The closest thing that I know to "steak tartar" is kibbeh (multiple spellings), which is a mix of beef and bulgur that is often eaten raw (with onions) when fresh (but is usually fried after that--commercially available kibbeh is always fried, as is the Israeli version, kubebbah). I wonder if anyone ever tried to compile a comprehensive list of such food misnomers. The blog post mentioned earlier that had sprung the "filet americaine" comment mentioned Swiss cheese, French toast and English muffins--prompted by a discovery of a product referred to as "American muffins" in England. There is also a (justifiable) rant concerning cafe americano as an abominable Starbucks creation. This is not quite accurate--at least, not with respect to Starbucks coining the term. One urban legend has it that the name was coined because diluting espresso with water was the only way to make normal coffee palatable to American tourists. But I have no hard evidence on the subject. So, I actually have two distinct long-term queries. First, a general one, concerning food items (in any language, but English is a good start) that are named geographically without any regard to the actual geographic origin (so Greek coffee would not qualify simply because it is also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama hat because it's not food). Second, I would like to compile a list of items that are known as "American" in other parts of the world (although not always in other languages). I suppose, in this case, American cheese does not qualify (and not simply because it is not really cheese). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Dec 14 14:57:10 2008 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:57:10 EST Subject: Vocabula: Free to New Readers Message-ID: Vocabula: Free to New Readers It is the season to give. >From now until December 25, The Vocabula Review will be free -- for one year -- to new readers. The Vocabula Review is a $40 value. If you enjoy words and the English language, Vocabula is indispensable. It's also a wonderful holiday gift -- you might give it to your friends and colleagues who take pleasure in writing well and speaking carefully, or who are disheartened by those who do not. Sign up and you'll have online access to twelve monthly issues of the highly regarded Vocabula Review, as well as to more than 100 back issues. To receive your yearlong subscription to the online Vocabula Review, simply fill in the _http://www.vocabula.com/site/register.asp_ (http://www.vocabula.com/site/register.asp) The Registration Key is: freeforall This offer is for people who have never before subscribed to The Vocabula Review. Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review _www.vocabula.com_ (http://www.vocabula.com/) Vocabula Books: _www.vocabulabooks.com_ (http://www.vocabulabooks.com/) ____________________________________ _Vocabula Communications Company_ (http://www.vocabula.com/VCC.asp) (http://www.vocabulabooks.com/) **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?o ptin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 14 15:06:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:06:50 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <4944C13D.6040206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:18 AM -0500 12/14/08, Victor wrote: >So, I actually have two distinct long-term >queries. First, a general one, concerning food >items (in any language, but English is a good >start) that are named geographically without any >regard to the actual geographic origin (so Greek >coffee would not qualify simply because it is >also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama >hat because it's not food). Second, I would like >to compile a list of items that are known as >"American" in other parts of the world (although >not always in other languages). I suppose, in >this case, American cheese does not qualify (and >not simply because it is not really cheese). > >VS-) On the second query: one of the enduring puzzles is the origin of preparations "? l'am?ricaine", in particular homard (lobster) ? l'am?ricaine. Recipes differ, but usually include olive oil, onions, wine, sometimes tomatoes, and typically cognac, none of which strikes one as particularly American (as has often been noted). Some claim the label is a "corruption" of the also existing style "? l'armoricaine", which in turn has been associated (dubiously, I think) with the Breton "ar mor" ('the sea'). To be sure, the preparation does seem more evocative of Brittany than, say, New Jersey, but this still seems pretty etymythological to me. That still leaves open the question of where "? l'am?ricaine" comes from. (10,400 raw g-hits for "homard ? l'am?ricaine" alone.) No ketchup or mayo in sight, anyway! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 15:48:36 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:48:36 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <4944C13D.6040206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12/14/2008 03:18 AM, Victor wrote: >Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography: > > > >In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs "Finnish meatballs." If they're appetizingly prepared, then in Finland the Swedish meatballs are called Finnish. >It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a Greek >fellow about my description of a particular beverage as "Turkish >coffee." He was quite certain that it was Greek coffee, thank you very much. Since coffee made that way can be quite good -- or at least appealing to Greek fellows, therefore it must be Greek coffee. Now with the inhabitants' diseases, on the other hand ... (see the French -- or it it the English? -- disease). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 15:52:06 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:52:06 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <2CC4B0AA3D7643D3864AF273AA920750@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 12/14/2008 08:46 AM, Sam Clements wrote: >I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better >dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an >Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen >Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. Also at the Harvard Depository. Joel >And the date is >correct. > >Sam Clements > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Shapiro, Fred" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 >Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" > > >>I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >>dead than Red." >> >>Fred Shapiro >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 14 16:04:27 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:04:27 -0500 Subject: F-Word update: Want to help? Message-ID: As many of you know, I am working on a new edition of _The F-Word_, with publication planned for the fall of 2009. This edition will be substantially larger and more thorough than the last; I've currently added over seventy new words and senses, and the size of the text has increased by 40%, and I'm nowhere near done. Previously I had posted to ADS-L lists of words I was interested in. This time, however, I have decided to post the entire text online; in some cases there are notes indicating things that I'm looking for. If you are _seriously_ interested in helping, please e-mail me and I will send you the link and password for the text. Anyone who helps will of course be thanked in the frontmatter (if you want to be) and will receive my gratitude. If you are merely curious, please don't ask for the link. Thanks very much. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 14 16:44:24 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:44:24 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <2CC4B0AA3D7643D3864AF273AA920750@DFV45181> Message-ID: Google Books claims (accurately or not) That v.3 pt. 2 [which would beJuly-Dec] 1960 p.57 snippet has: "Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red") ? is the infamous watchword of the hirelings of reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies of the ... Germany Divided: The Legacy of the Nazi Era By Terence Prittie 1960 p.14 In May 1959... But he admitted that he himself would "sooner be dead than red." Kurt Schumacher , the first postwar leader of the West German Social Democratic Party, ... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Quoting Sam Clements : > I assume you already have the Google book hit for 1938. It says "better > dead than red-white-red." While it's only a snippet view, the book, an > Engliish translation of "The Last Five Hours of Austria" by Eugen > Lennhoff, Leigh Farnell, is available at Princeton. And the date is > correct. > > Sam Clements > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shapiro, Fred" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 08:47 > Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" > > >> I would welcome any information about pre-1961 usage of the phrase "better >> dead than Red." >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Sun Dec 14 17:10:32 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:10:32 -0500 Subject: Finnish meatballs In-Reply-To: <200812140828.mBDC8B3w012623@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another reversal of this sort occurs with the scourge known in America as "Dutch elm disease," but as "American elm disease" in Holland, on the grounds that it afflicts American elms. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~ On Dec 14, 2008, at 3:18 AM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: Finnish meatballs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Matt Yglesias comments on some food terms derived from geography:
>
>
<http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/12/finland_fact_of_the_day.php> > ;
>
>

In Finland, they call Swedish meatballs “Finnish > meatballs.”

>

It brought to mind a very angry conversation I once had with a > Greek > fellow about my description of a particular beverage as “Turkish > coffee.” He was quite certain that it was Greek > coffee, thank > you very much.

>
> Another item this brings to mind for me is "filet americain" in the > Netherlands ("americaine" in Belgium, apparently). For example,
>
> <http://www.radiofreemike.com/2006/05/blogging- > britain.html>
>
The one I liked was filet americaine in Belgium. > Turned out to be raw hamburger with some onions and other stuff on it, > spread on a baguette. Then there was sauce americaine as one > of the six million things to put on french fries, and that was > basically a ketchup/mayo mix.
>
> From what I understood from Dutch food labels, this is not quite > correct. "Filet americain(e)" certainly contains raw ground beef, but > if that were all it had (with some condiments on the side), it would > have been labeled "steak tartare" (not to be confused with "bief > tartaar", which is just high quality ground beef, often packaged in > small hamburger-style discs, but meant for cooking). Steak tartare, > however, is labeled as such in Dutch supermarkets. The difference > between "steak tartare" and "filet americain natuur" escapes me.
>
> For Dutch speakers, there is a whole Dutch Wiki page (and a second one > that clarifies it further).
>
> <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filet_am%C3%A9ricain>
>
> <http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaar>
>
> But I digress. The point is that, despite the name and like the > English-language term "French fries", there is no apparent connection > between the geographic identification in the food term and the food's > actual geographic origins. This is slightly different from "Swedish > meatballs" and "Greek coffee". And the significance of the "tartare" > (or "tartar" or "tartaar") does not escape me in this context. The > closest thing that I know to "steak tartar" is kibbeh (multiple > spellings), which is a mix of beef and bulgur that is often eaten raw > (with onions) when fresh (but is usually fried after that-- > commercially > available kibbeh is always fried, as is the Israeli version, > kubebbah). >
>
> I wonder if anyone ever tried to compile a comprehensive list of such > food misnomers. The blog post mentioned earlier that had sprung the > "filet americaine" comment mentioned Swiss cheese, French toast and > English muffins--prompted by a discovery of a product referred to as > "American muffins" in England. There is also a (justifiable) rant > concerning cafe americano as an abominable Starbucks creation. This is > not quite accurate--at least, not with respect to Starbucks coining > the > term. One urban legend has it that the name was coined because > diluting > espresso with water was the only way to make normal coffee palatable > to > American tourists. But I have no hard evidence on the subject.
>
> So, I actually have two distinct long-term queries. First, a general > one, concerning food items (in any language, but English is a good > start) that are named geographically without any regard to the actual > geographic origin (so Greek coffee would not qualify simply because it > is also known as Turkish coffee; nor would Panama hat because it's not > food). Second, I would like to compile a list of items that are known > as "American" in other parts of the world (although not always in > other > languages). I suppose, in this case, American cheese does not qualify > (and not simply because it is not really cheese).
>
> VS-)
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Dec 14 23:29:59 2008 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:29:59 -0600 Subject: Habas de refried Message-ID: The Cub Foods supermarket near Lake and Hiawatha in Minneapolis has aisle signs in English and Spanish. Among the Spanish on one: "habas de refried." The English is "refried beans." -- Dan Goodman "I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers." Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com Mirror Journal http://dsgood.insanejournal.com Mirror 2 http://dsgood.wordpress.com Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Dec 15 04:54:32 2008 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:54:32 -0500 Subject: SbaCL words of the year Message-ID: I've just announced the Separated by a Common Language words of the year. For British-to-American, it's the verb 'to vet'. For American-to-British, it's 'meh'. If you don't say 'meh' to that, there are more details at: Best wishes to all of you choosing the ADS words... Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 05:23:30 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:23:30 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <200812141644.mBEBoP6V026776@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some general notes on the German version. Just for general interest--German Wiki suggests that the phrase has been more recently flipped "Lieber rot als tot". [Note--the first reference link for this ([2]) is dead.] But LTAR has an entry while LRAT does not. (More on this below.) *** A Croatian blogger also explains the origin--citation begging--as a Goebbels invention during the war.
"Better dead than Red" was an anti-Communist phrase first used during World War II in its original German form "Lieber tot als rot" and later during the Cold War by the United States. It was coined by Nazi Germany's Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels in the end phase of the Second World War to motivate the German military and population to fight the Russians to the end.
[I am highly skeptical of this origin. See, for example, knowledgerush.com as a potential source for this. Also, see below for more data] The slogan was clearly interpreted literally in some instances. Jean Baechler, Suicides, 1979, p. 329 I am assuming that the reference is to WWII data--full text not available from Google Books]
... described the unprecedented horrors that Russian occupation would bring with it, and launched the slogan: Lieber tot als rot (better dead than red). ... ... Certain reported cases have no need for commentary. In the area around Elbing a woman doctor poisoned herself and her two children; a father decided to die with the rest of the family and proposed one bullet for everyone in the house: a total of sixty-two deaths. ...
*** Another interesting reference for the German version is from a recent book that pops up on Google Books. [Wolfgang Mieder,The Politics of Proverbs, 1997, p. 119--Mieder had a similar title published in German in 1975, but it's clearly an updated version.] Although it mentions both the the straight and the inverted versions, it places the inverted version as "well-known".
A slogan from the disarmament movement during the early 1960s reappeared in the 1980s in a German cartoon strip. In the first frame of the strip, someone has just finished writing the well-known slogan "Lieber rot als tot!" (Better red than dead) on an empty wall. The second frame shows another person crossing out this message and replacing it with the inversion "Lieber tot als rot!!" ... In the third frame yet another person crosses out both versions and begins to write a new slogan with the word "Lieber" (Better) which then is concluded in the fourth frame as "Lieber weder noch!!!" (Better neither nor). [The reference identifies Der Spiegel, No. 20 (11 May 1981), p. 21, as the source.]
The fact that the inverse phrase was the rallying cry of the German disarmament movement suggests that indeed "Lieber tot als rot" could not have been a Goebbels invention. This is further enhanced by Mieder's explanation that the slogan was "well-known" *** Stephen Goranson's reference is the 1960 World Marxist Review, but the hit I got on Google Books gives p. 87 instead of p. 57.
"Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red")--is the infamous watchword of the hirelings of the reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies of the people in the capitalist countries.
This is the only excerpt that Google Books has and it also lacks the full chapter list. *** A German friend offered some help.
the German wikipedia mentions the book Sirach , but there it says "today king, tomorrow dead" and I'm not sure how that can possibly be understood as an origin. Then it goes on by suggesting late medieval furneral sermons as an origin. According to that, if the death was sudden, people said "today red, tommorow dead", meaning the "redness of life" on red cheeks. Then, when red became the color of the socialistic worker movement, this old saying might have been changed to a fighting parole. All other Wikipedias suggest Joseph Goebbels as a user of the phrase. But in the German one this part has been deleted, because obviously no user could prove that he said the line. I found some websites that say that he used it in a late-war radio speech on the so-called "Sender Werwolf", a radio station to create groups of partisans who would keep fighting against the allies ("Werw?lfe", werewolves). Unfortunately, I only found excerpts from speeches via that sender, nothing complete. So I really can't tell if he used it. However, it might be possible since the excerpts I found all try to convince the listener to rather die than to give up. Another origin that's not listed in the wikis might be the street fights going on in the "Weimarer Republik" after WW1, in which all kinds of radicals fought bloody battles. According to a blog post a youth organisation of Germany's Social-Democrats once mentioned this origin, but the site on whcih they said it is down by now.
*** One interesting thing is that Phrasen.com has an entry for LRAT but not for LTAR. And I got a bit more from my friend. He took a look at the "discussion" section for the German wiki entry and found that people wanted to delete the Goebbels reference because they could not find a proper reference. But in one version of the entry, there were two links that provided such a reference.
1st: "RADIO WERWOLF On April 1, 1945, the German station 'Radio Werwolf' began broadcasting for the first time from a special transmitter in the town of K?nigswusterhausen, not far from Berlin. It was created by Propaganda Minister Geobbels to rally the population to suicidal resistance. Its theme, repeated over and over again was "Besser tot als rot" (Better dead than red)." and 2nd "Radio Werewolf was only on the air for a few weeks before the surrender of Nazi Germany. Josef Geobbles prepared a number of slogans on Radio Werewolf which were designed to boast the spirts of Germans, and called upon the Germans to mount resistance against the Allied armies. These slogans included: /*"People to Arms!" "Better dead than Red!" "The stronger the storm, the mightier the resistance!"*/ There was some disagreement in the Nazi leadership regarding the Werewolf resistance movement and Radio Werewolf. Reichminister Heinrich Himmler opposed Radio Werewolf, and many generals on the German Staff disapproved of the Werewolves. Himmler wanted Werewolf activities to remain secret, while Goebbels wanted to broadcast and play up news about the Werewolves. Nevertheless, Josef Goebbels said and did what he wanted during the final weeks of the crumbling Third Reich. There was no disagreement with SS Gen. Pruetzmann, who regarded all burgomasters in Allied occuplied zones as traitor who deserved assassination or liquidation."
The second site suggests Werewolf: The Story of the Nazi Resistance Movement 1944-1945 by Charles Whiting as the reference. The first site is a compilation of "lesser known facts" with no references and some "facts" of questionable provenance. Neither site offers any evidence of coinage--only utilization of the phrase. VS-) Stephen Goranson wrote: > Google Books claims (accurately or not) That v.3 pt. 2 [which would > beJuly-Dec] 1960 p.57 snippet has: > "Lieber tot als rot" ("Better be dead than red") ? is the infamous watchword > of the hirelings of reaction alarmed by the growing socialist sympathies > of the ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 15 06:02:25 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:02:25 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; } Looks like 1907: http://books.google.com/books?id=DPAaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA745&dq=%22rot+als+tot%22+date:1900-1950&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA746,M1 [1] -- Doug Wilson Links: ------ [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=DPAaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA745&dq=%22rot+als+tot%22+date:1900-1950&lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA746,M1 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 07:59:25 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:59:25 -0500 Subject: "Better Dead Than Red" In-Reply-To: <200812150523.mBEBlKXI031557@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple more notes on Google Books. There appears to be a serious problem with periodicals. Among other things, Google Books lists The American Mercury as a 1924 source for "Better dead than red". In fact, the snippet shows that it includes both that and the inverse version! The only problem is that the publication data may not be accurate. The American Mercury was *founded* in 1924, which is why it is listed as 1924 in Google. The same is true about a publication listed under "Information Service" for Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America. The nominal date is 1928, but it also does not appear to be the publication date of the actual quote. This is a weekly publication that's been out since 1922, although not all libraries have the complete set. For example, Harvard Divinity School has it listed under 1924 because they start with vol. 3. The same problem with China Yearbook listed as 1937, but with the cover page showing 1962-1963. The Political Quarterly that claims the date of 1914 is actually from 1980. In fact, looking through the German hits for both "tot als rot" and "rot als tot", the same problem is quite evident. Only two pre-1950 DTR hits appear to be legitimate. There is no doubt about the 1939 book March of Fascism by Stephen Raushenbush, 1939, p. 302. This is a slightly different version--"Rather dead than red-white-red", referring to the Austrian flag--but the meaning and use are the same. Raushenbush's account closely matches the one by Lennhoff & Farnell, The Last Five Hours of Austria, 1938, p. 155. Ironically, both refer to Nazi slogans in German. But it's important that they also precede the alleged Goebbels coinage, from 1945. They also show slightly different translations--one uses "Rather", the other "Better". Both Lieber and Besser have been used in German. Reversing the search string gives a list entirely composed of periodicals, save one entry. This one, on the other hand, does not fit at all (although it might hold some interest for linguists). It is Speech is Easy by Reader & McMahon. The clip is a comparison of pairs of consonants (italics to highlight paired sounds omitted):
It takes longer to say hole than to say hope, then than thin, mit than pit, view than few, red than dead. With a little practice, prolonging these sounds will become a habit.
Not so for the actual German. Here, the search actually finds a meaningful hit--but only for "rot als tot". [Remaining hits are incorrectly-placed periodicals, except for one other--see PS below.] This one gives the full text version and the dates are clearly April 1906-April 1907. (Das freie Wort: Frankfurter Halbmonatsschrift f?r Fortschritt auf allen Gebieten des geistigen Lebens, p. 745) Here, there is no question that "Lieber rot als tot!" is a rallying cry of the liberals in 1907.
Vielleicht aber verrechnet sich der Kanzler doch noch, wenn der Liberalismus sich in diesen ?ber sein Schicksal entscheidenden Tagen aus sich selbst besinnt. G?rtet er seine Lenden zum Kamps in der Erkenntnis, da? sein Feldgeschrei lauten mu?: Aus Leben und Tod gegen die Reaktion, gegen die psassische und die junkerlich-agrarische!, dann k?nnte e r es sein, der sich zwei Majorit?ten schafft: eine nach rechts her?bergreisende in allen nationalen, und eine nach links, von der Mitte der Nationalliberalen bis zu Bebel und Singer, reichende in allen demokratischen Fragen. Das w?re die gro?e Stunde des Liberalismus! Das w?re die Geburtsstunde seiner Macht! Also Parole bei den Hauptwahlen: Gegen die Reaktion aus der Rechten und in der Mitte! Parole bei den Stichwahlen: Lieber rot als tot!
This answers both my earlier questions with respect to the disarmament slogans. VS-) PS: Oddly enough, for the earliest entry, Google suggests that "rot als tot" combination appears in a 1857 Dutch publication of works of Joost Van den Volden (no idea who that is). But a closer inspection reveals this to be a completely false hit--here the publication date is not the problem. In fact, it's bad-OCR that compounds other Google issues. PPS: The German hit is the same as the one posted by Doug Wilson. earlier. Google built-in OCR--which appears to be the same software they use for searches--is very poor and requires correction. (And even then, it's only posted for public domain publications.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 15 16:01:38 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:01:38 -0500 Subject: Google Book Search misdating (was Re: "Better Dead Than Red") Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 2:59 AM, Victor wrote: > > A couple more notes on Google Books. There appears to be a serious > problem with periodicals. > > Among other things, Google Books lists The American Mercury as a 1924 > source for "Better dead than red". In fact, the snippet shows that it > includes both that and the inverse version! The only problem is that the > publication data may not be accurate. The American Mercury was *founded* > in 1924, which is why it is listed as 1924 in Google. This is a problem that all of us using Google Book Search for antedating purposes have run up against. There's some hope for improvement now that the Hathi Trust has gotten involved (for public-domain material) and Google's lawsuits have been settled (for in-copyright material), as I've discussed on Language Log: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=602 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=780 In the meantime, there are some tricks for dealing with misdated periodicals. 1. A misdated record may actually have good metadata, if you know where to look. For periodicals, never go by the year listed in the main search results page (even though this is what's used when restricting searches to a particular date range). Instead, look at what's listed under "More details" on the About the Book Page. This often shows the correct date, or at least a range of a year or two. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FcAdAAAAMAAJ Year listed as 1969, metadata shows it's from 1996 2. The metadata might at least tell you the correct volume/issue number, which you can then check elsewhere for the correct date. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=ut-2AAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1960, metadata shows it's from v.384 no.8544-8548 [turns out to be Sep. 2007] 3. You might be able to see the correct year or range of years on the small title page image on the About The Book page. Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FQwVAAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1937, title page shows it's from 1962-1963 4. As a last resort, you can try "Search in This Book" for year numbers to see what shows up in the results (assuming you can see at least snippet view). Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=aZmNAAAAIAAJ Year listed as 1996, search on year numbers shows it's from 2001 On the bright side, it does seem that some of the old misdatings have actually been corrected or at least improved. So they're aware of the problem and are trying to do something about it. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Dec 15 16:19:32 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:19:32 -0600 Subject: Google Book Search misdating (was Re: "Better Dead Than Red") (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812151612.mBFBksC3012138@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another hint: if the document is a government document, search inside the book for "fiscal", "fiscal year" -- this often leads to useful date information. Likewise "copyright". > > This is a problem that all of us using Google Book Search for > antedating purposes have run up against. There's some hope > for improvement now that the Hathi Trust has gotten involved > (for public-domain material) and Google's lawsuits have been > settled (for in-copyright material), as I've discussed on > Language Log: > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=602 > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=780 > > In the meantime, there are some tricks for dealing with > misdated periodicals. > > 1. A misdated record may actually have good metadata, if you > know where to look. For periodicals, never go by the year > listed in the main search results page (even though this is > what's used when restricting searches to a particular date > range). Instead, look at what's listed under "More details" > on the About the Book Page. This often shows the correct > date, or at least a range of a year or two. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FcAdAAAAMAAJ > Year listed as 1969, metadata shows it's from 1996 > > 2. The metadata might at least tell you the correct > volume/issue number, which you can then check elsewhere for > the correct date. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=ut-2AAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1960, metadata shows it's from v.384 > no.8544-8548 [turns out to be Sep. 2007] > > 3. You might be able to see the correct year or range of > years on the small title page image on the About The Book page. > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=FQwVAAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1937, title page shows it's from 1962-1963 > > 4. As a last resort, you can try "Search in This Book" for > year numbers to see what shows up in the results (assuming > you can see at least snippet view). > > Example: http://books.google.com/books?id=aZmNAAAAIAAJ > Year listed as 1996, search on year numbers shows it's from 2001 > > On the bright side, it does seem that some of the old > misdatings have actually been corrected or at least improved. > So they're aware of the problem and are trying to do > something about it. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 15 18:37:25 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:25 -0800 Subject: "sloppy seconds" Message-ID: a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) first the story... Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends ESPN.com news services Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one thing." "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then walked out of the locker room. Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. ..... then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- girlfriends Associated Press Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments about his former girlfriends. "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I took it too far." ..... several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". the Urban Dictionary -- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sloppy+seconds -- has several entries that get at the core use. this one (#3) is the most decorous (it does give a nominal expression a verb definition, but that's a common feature of UD definitions): "To engage in sexual intercouse where ejaculation has previously ocurred in the orifice by another male within a short time frame. The sperm and semem [sic] is then used as a natural lubrication by the second male. Although the term may be used to describe both vaginal and anal intercourse with a male or female, it is traditionally used to describe vaginal intercourse." definition #2 provides a sense extension: "Any decrease in provision size or quality do [sic] to a hiearchical ranking among men." with an illustrative example: "When the fraternity entered the bar the bothers were allowed to pick dates first while the pledges got sloppy seconds." that's essentially 'second choice(s)' (but restricted here to male-ranking contexts). a somewhat different extension appears in definition #5: "Alas, this word has now leaked into general usage and people are taking it to mean 'ill-fitting hand-me-downs'." that's essentially 'second-hand item(s)'. i take this sense (which i wasn't familiar with until the Avery thing came around) to be close to Avery's sense, though Avery's use was clearly sexual, and the items in question are women. so the substitutes "ex-girlfriends" and "former girlfriends" aren't really accurate -- unless you understand "my girlfriend" to mean 'woman i am screwing'. all these extensions shift from "sloppy seconds" (a mass expression) denoting an activity, primarily in "get/have sloppy seconds", to "sloppy seconds" (a count expression) denoting a woman (or women), as in Avery's "fall in love with my sloppy seconds" 'fall in love with women i have screwed'. meanwhile, there's Sloppy Seconds ("a Ramones-influenced punk band from Indianapolis that started in the mid-1980s", according to wikipedia), the 2006 movie Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds (with "seconds", 'second helping'), the 2008 movie Feast II: Sloppy Seconds, a card game Sloppy Seconds (in which the object is: "Score the SECOND most number of points of each suit in each hand"), references to re- makes of movies as "sloppy seconds", references to plagiarizations as "sloppy seconds", and goodness knows what else. and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean Avery's sloppy seconds. by the way, the NYT didn't shy away from "sloppy seconds" in this movie review (of Vicky Cristina Barcelona) from 8/20/08: Sloppy Seconds Woody Allen fails to capitalize on a threesome with his sexy act By Armond White ... Rebecca Hall plays Vicky, the brunet BFF of Scarlett Johansson?s Cristina (the Iberian spelling goes unexplained). These sisterly American tourists are seduced by a suave Spanish painter, Juan Antonio (Javier Bardem, another Woody draftee cashing in on his recent celebrity). Vicky drops her pants, then her Yankee prudery, unlike thrill-seeker Cristina who insists to Juan Antonio, ?You have to seduce me.? Through this sneaky, sloppy-seconds friendship, Allen pretends complexity but merely confuses basic emotions. ..... arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 15 19:14:59 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:14:59 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] "sloppy secon ds" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/08 1:38:00 PM, zwicky at STANFORD.EDU writes: > and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean > Avery's sloppy seconds > and others who would be happy to BE Sean Avery's s.s.'s ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity& ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 15 21:03:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:03:57 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: <200812151837.mBFBksTD012138@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, your analysis seems right to me. When I first heard the phrase, it referred to what all participants other than the first stud got in "pulling 'the train.'" I heard it in the context of the act of rape. However, in Amsterdam, I saw plenty of instances of "the train" being pulled that didn't involve having the woman against her will. The "coaches" of the train were usually dumb swabbies - they were always in uniform - who either had no idea that they were in a sexual paradise or had no time to waste availing themselves of the local bennies. Among my friends, the concept of "sloppy seconds" was mythological in any case, to say the least, there being no train-pulling group of rapists either among us or known to us. By the time that we had graduated from high school, the term was obsolete. The phrase was unused in the military, though I did once hear tell of the act having been perpetrated against a German woman by GI's from my post. But *not* from my unit. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "sloppy seconds" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, > separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) > > first the story... > > Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends > ESPN.com news services > > Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET > > [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman > for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other > hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out > of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. > > Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, > Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging > remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when > Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera > present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one > thing." > > "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario > native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common > thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I > don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then > walked out of the locker room. > > Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show > "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion > Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the > Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports > Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend > of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. > > ..... > > then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- > girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... > > Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- > girlfriends > Associated Press > > Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET > > > DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York > on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and > gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments > about his former girlfriends. > > "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the > press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made > those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. > > "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now > acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary > embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in > the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and > Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. > > "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the > commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars > management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on > and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I > took it too far." > > ..... > > several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with > which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness > of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow > a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main > interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". > > the Urban Dictionary -- > > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sloppy+seconds > > -- > > has several entries that get at the core use. this one (#3) is the > most decorous (it does give a nominal expression a verb definition, > but that's a common feature of UD definitions): "To engage in sexual > intercouse where ejaculation has previously ocurred in the orifice by > another male within a short time frame. The sperm and semem [sic] is > then used as a natural lubrication by the second male. Although the > term may be used to describe both vaginal and anal intercourse with a > male or female, it is traditionally used to describe vaginal > intercourse." > > definition #2 provides a sense extension: "Any decrease in provision > size or quality do [sic] to a hiearchical ranking among men." with an > illustrative example: "When the fraternity entered the bar the bothers > were allowed to pick dates first while the pledges got sloppy > seconds." that's essentially 'second choice(s)' (but restricted here > to male-ranking contexts). > > a somewhat different extension appears in definition #5: "Alas, this > word has now leaked into general usage and people are taking it to > mean 'ill-fitting hand-me-downs'." that's essentially 'second-hand > item(s)'. > > i take this sense (which i wasn't familiar with until the Avery thing > came around) to be close to Avery's sense, though Avery's use was > clearly sexual, and the items in question are women. so the > substitutes "ex-girlfriends" and "former girlfriends" aren't really > accurate -- unless you understand "my girlfriend" to mean 'woman i am > screwing'. > > all these extensions shift from "sloppy seconds" (a mass expression) > denoting an activity, primarily in "get/have sloppy seconds", to > "sloppy seconds" (a count expression) denoting a woman (or women), as > in Avery's "fall in love with my sloppy seconds" 'fall in love with > women i have screwed'. > > meanwhile, there's Sloppy Seconds ("a Ramones-influenced punk band > from Indianapolis that started in the mid-1980s", according to > wikipedia), the 2006 movie Eating Out 2: Sloppy Seconds (with > "seconds", 'second helping'), the 2008 movie Feast II: Sloppy Seconds, > a card game Sloppy Seconds (in which the object is: "Score the SECOND > most number of points of each suit in each hand"), references to re- > makes of movies as "sloppy seconds", references to plagiarizations as > "sloppy seconds", and goodness knows what else. > > and, of course, guys blogging that they'd be happy to take Sean > Avery's sloppy seconds. > > by the way, the NYT didn't shy away from "sloppy seconds" in this > movie review (of Vicky Cristina Barcelona) from 8/20/08: > > Sloppy Seconds > > Woody Allen fails to capitalize on a threesome with his sexy act > > By Armond White > > ... Rebecca Hall plays Vicky, the brunet BFF of Scarlett Johansson's > Cristina (the Iberian spelling goes unexplained). These sisterly > American tourists are seduced by a suave Spanish painter, Juan Antonio > (Javier Bardem, another Woody draftee cashing in on his recent > celebrity). Vicky drops her pants, then her Yankee prudery, unlike > thrill-seeker Cristina who insists to Juan Antonio, "You have to > seduce me." > > Through this sneaky, sloppy-seconds friendship, Allen pretends > complexity but merely confuses basic emotions. > > ..... > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Dec 15 22:02:34 2008 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:02:34 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote: > a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, > separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) > > first the story... > > Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends > ESPN.com news services > > Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET > > [Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman > for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other > hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out > of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. > > Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, > Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging > remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when > Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera > present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one > thing." > > "I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario > native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common > thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I > don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then > walked out of the locker room. > > Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show > "24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion > Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the > Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports > Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend > of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. > > ..... > > then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- > girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... > > Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- > girlfriends > Associated Press > > Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET > > > DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York > on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and > gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments > about his former girlfriends. > > "I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the > press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made > those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. > > "It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now > acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary > embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in > the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and > Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. > > "I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the > commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars > management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on > and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I > took it too far." > > ..... > > several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with > which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness > of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow > a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main > interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". I have no quarrels with the etymological info snipped below. As a hockey fan (well, to be honest, as a hockey junky), I just want to add that what got Avery suspended was more a pattern of behavior than simply this one instance. Immediately before he made these remarks, he'd told his coach that he wasn't going to speak to the media, and apparently he'd had repeated meetings with the commissioner about behavior issues. If this were the only blot on Avery's copybook, he'd not have been suspended; pleading no contest to spousal abuse doesn't get a player a suspension, for instance. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 01:51:24 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:51:24 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" In-Reply-To: <4946D3FA.1040104@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 5:02 PM -0500 12/15/08, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>a while back, but still of linguistic interest. (pointed out to me, >>separately, by Victor Steinbok and Jonathan Falk.) >> >>first the story... >> >>Avery suspended indefinitely for comments related to ex-girlfriends >>ESPN.com news services >> >>Updated: December 3, 2008, 6:29 PM ET >> >>[Sean] Avery was punished indefinitely by commissioner Gary Bettman >>for using a crude term about his former girlfriends now dating other >>hockey players. Bettman acted within hours, in time to keep Avery out >>of the Dallas Stars' game against the Calgary Flames on Tuesday night. >> >>Avery's inflammatory line came following a morning skate in Calgary, >>Alberta. Reporters were waiting to speak with Avery about disparaging >>remarks he'd made last month about Flames star Jarome Iginla when >>Avery walked over to the group and asked if there was a camera >>present. When told there was, he said, "I'm just going to say one >>thing." >> >>"I'm really happy to be back in Calgary; I love Canada," the Ontario >>native said. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common >>thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I >>don't know what that's about, but enjoy the game tonight." He then >>walked out of the locker room. >> >>Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert of the television show >>"24" and the movie "Old School," is dating Calgary defenseman Dion >>Phaneuf; she had been romantically linked to Mike Komisarek of the >>Montreal Canadiens. Avery also dated Rachel Hunter, the former Sports >>Illustrated swimsuit cover model and actress who is now the girlfriend >>of Los Angeles Kings center Jarret Stoll. >> >>..... >> >>then, of course, the apology (though not directly to the ex- >>girlfriends or the players they are now dating)... >> >>Stars LW Avery issues apology for televised comments about ex- >>girlfriends >>Associated Press >> >>Updated: December 4, 2008, 1:22 AM ET >> >> >>DALLAS -- Suspended Dallas Stars agitator Sean Avery flew to New York >>on Wednesday for a meeting with NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, and >>gave a likely sample of what he'll say by apologizing for comments >>about his former girlfriends. >> >>"I would like to sincerely apologize for my off-color remarks to the >>press yesterday from Calgary," Avery said. "I should not have made >>those comments and I recognize that they were inappropriate. >> >>"It was a bad attempt to build excitement for the game, but I am now >>acutely aware of how hurtful my actions were. I caused unnecessary >>embarrassment to my peers as well as people I have been close with in >>the past [possibly an indirect reference to the other players and >>Avery's former girlfriends they dated]. >> >>"I apologize for offending the great fans of the NHL, the >>commissioner, my teammates, my coaching staff and the Dallas Stars >>management and ownership. As many of you know, I like to mix it up on >>and off the ice from time to time, but understand that this time I >>took it too far." >> >>..... >> >>several things to comment on here, in particular the gravity with >>which Avery's crude talk was treated by the NHL brass and the lameness >>of the apology (though lame apologies like this one pretty much follow >>a script, as we've noted many times on Language Log). but my main >>interest is in Avery's use of "sloppy seconds". > >I have no quarrels with the etymological info snipped below. As a hockey >fan (well, to be honest, as a hockey junky), I just want to add that >what got Avery suspended was more a pattern of behavior than simply this >one instance. Immediately before he made these remarks, he'd told his >coach that he wasn't going to speak to the media, and apparently he'd >had repeated meetings with the commissioner about behavior issues. If >this were the only blot on Avery's copybook, he'd not have been >suspended; pleading no contest to spousal abuse doesn't get a player a >suspension, for instance. > Within the game, he's known for being quite a pest. In fact, it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone involved that a rule was created the very next day to make the practice in question illegal.* See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Avery on the Sean Avery rule and more than you ever wanted to know about Avery. LH *When the dunk was ruled out of college basketball to make life harder for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (then Lew Alcindor) or the tees were moved back to make golf harder for Tiger Woods or the lane was widened so Wilt Chamberlain wouldn't be quite so dominant, none of these were instituted the day after a specific action of the player in question, and the new edicts were all designed to insure competitive balance, not to outlaw bad sportsmanship. So Avery's legacy is assured, at least for now. I don't except there will be a sloppy seconds rule for suspensions, though. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 02:21:00 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:21:00 -0500 Subject: Our Fred on Quotes of the Year Message-ID: An AP article of more or less this form has been popping up in papers around the world. I wonder if Jesse Jackson's "crude remark" on Obama and his family jewels was actually quoted in some of the write-ups. And wasn't "bitter" a crucial component of the "bittergate" quote, at least to Obama's detractors? LH ========== [Associated Press] Sarah Palin lost the election, but she's a winner to a connoisseur of quotations. The Republican vice presidential candidate and her comedic doppelganger, Tina Fey, took the top two spots in this year's list of most memorable quotes compiled by Fred R. Shapiro. First place was "I can see Russia from my house!" spoken in satire of Palin's foreign policy credentials by Fey on "Saturday Night Live." Palin actual quote was: "They're our next-door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." Palin also made the third annual list for her inability to name newspapers she reads. When questioned by CBS anchor Katie Couric, Palin said she reads "all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years." Palin's quotes were pivotal, said Shapiro, associate librarian and lecturer in legal research at the Yale Law School who compiles the list. "This quote helped shape the election results," he said of the Russia quote. "As it sank in the public realized this was someone really, really inexperienced and perhaps lacking in curiosity about the world." Shapiro issued his Yale Book of Quotations, with about 13,000 entries, two years ago after six years of research. He expects to release the next edition in about five years, but in the meantime plans to issue annual top 10 lists. Picking the best quotes this year was especially challenging because the presidential race and financial crisis provided so much material, Shapiro said. Last year's list ranged from "Don't tase me, bro"--shouted by a Florida college student--to a quote from a Miss Teen USA contestant who gave a confused and mangled response to a question about why one-fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a map. Shapiro said that when he began the list he thought he would select the most profound, eloquent or witty quotes. But the celebrity culture and political discourse led him down a different path. "What I have come to do is pick some quotes that really say something about our culture and they tend almost exclusively to be quotes that are notable for negative reasons rather than being admirable or eloquent," Shapiro said. Palin's running mate, Sen. John McCain, also made the list twice, once for his "the fundamentals of America's economy are strong" comment in April and again for saying "maybe 100" when asked last January how many years U.S. troops could remain in Iraq. Shapiro said the quotes may have been somewhat unfairly construed. "Nonetheless, these quotes cemented his image as someone who was out of touch with economic realities or indifferent to economic realities and being someone who was fanatical about prosecuting the war in Iraq," he said. Shapiro relies on suggestions from quote-watchers around the world, plus his own choices from songs, the news and movies, and then searches databases and the Internet to determine the popularity of the quotes. Phil Gramm, a McCain advisor, made the list for saying "We have sort of become a nation of whiners" in July in reference to Americans concerned about the economy. President-elect Barack Obama didn't make the list, not even for his much-criticized remark in which he said some small-town Americans "cling to guns or religion." "To me it didn't seem like a very remarkable or very foolish quote," said Shapiro, who describes himself as a liberal Democrat. "Ultimately I decided against it, but it was a close call." However, a crude remark about Obama by the Rev. Jesse Jackson did make the list. Jackson apologized for the comment during what he thought was a private conversation in July. "It indicates Republicans do not have a monopoly on quotes that are deplorable," Shapiro said. While Obama dominated the year and produced memorable quotes, "quotes from people like Palin were more celebrated and said more about our times than anything Obama said." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Dec 16 11:47:18 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:47:18 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen Message-ID: > In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the > Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It > netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van > Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The > word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder > what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. > "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to > swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to > stimulate either oneself or someone else.' The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, and swaffled online. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 15:03:33 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:03:33 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" Message-ID: Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white aerospace engineer: "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time when I would have said, "com PROMising." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 15:08:38 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:08:38 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen In-Reply-To: <200812161157.mBGBl2UK016548@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Non-North-American English, I assume? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the >> Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It >> netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van >> Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The >> word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder >> what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. >> "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to >> swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to >> stimulate either oneself or someone else.' > > > > > The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, > as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, > and swaffled online. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Tue Dec 16 15:26:05 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:26:05 -0500 Subject: Dutch word of the year: swaffelen Message-ID: Adds new meaning to the concept of what male teens do so often: think with their dicks. dh >>> In their annual end-of-year craze for lists and nominations, the >>> Dutch have elected the verb "swaffelen" as the word of the year. It >>> netted 57 percent of the 16,000 votes on the website hosted by Van >>> Dale Publishers, renowned for its authoritative dictionaries. The >>> word, a loan from English, is not generally known and many wonder >>> what it means. Stop reading here if you're allergic to nudity. >>> "Swaffelen" is something only men can do. Apparently, it means 'to >>> swing one's penis, making it bump against something, in order to >>> stimulate either oneself or someone else.' >> >> >ord-of-the-Year >> > >> >> The article claims the word is from English, which could be the case, >> as there are a handful of related citations for swaffle, swaffling, >> and swaffled online. >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 16:20:53 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:20:53 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812160703x89728d8wf2cefcae0f607ea0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be reassured that folks are still reading... LH At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: > >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >aerospace engineer: > >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >when I would have said, "com PROMising." > >-Wilson >--- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 17:23:48 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:23:48 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <200812161621.mBGBl2Fc016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But is it JUST a spelling pronunciation, or is it a reinterpretation of the word as meaning "promising to each other" -- which would be closer to the meaning of "marriage", if less likely? Mark Mandel On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I > guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be > reassured that folks are still reading... > > LH > > At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from > Georgia: > > > >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > > > >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white > >aerospace engineer: > > > >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > > > > >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, > >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate > >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time > >when I would have said, "com PROMising." > > > >-Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 17:36:22 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812160923r576d65ebw97bd55a436f6325e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0500 12/16/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >But is it JUST a spelling pronunciation, or is it a reinterpretation of the >word as meaning "promising to each other" -- which would be closer to the >meaning of "marriage", if less likely? Not to mention the possible reinterpretation of the *first* syllable of the reanalyzed term. ;-) >On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I >> guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be >> reassured that folks are still reading... >> >> LH >> >> At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from >> Georgia: >> > >> >"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? >> > >> >Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >> >aerospace engineer: >> > >> >"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." >> > >> > >> >I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >> >at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >> >would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >> >when I would have said, "com PROMising." >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Dec 16 19:19:40 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:19:40 -0600 Subject: Maledicta ends publication Message-ID: I send the note below with regret. Reinhold ("Rey") Aman has been a unique presence in lexical/phraseological research over the past generation, and I consider him a friend. At some point it would be good to prepare an article or monograph about him and his life's work. Gerald Cohen [Note about Maledicta's end]: Reinhold Aman, the editor and publisher of _Maledicta: The International Journal of Verbal Aggression_, has informed me that _Maledicta_ will no longer be published. Its publication run extends 30 years and 13 volumes, which contain much uncensored and humorous material of interest to linguists and scholars of English and many other languages. Links to Contents of vols. 1-13 can be found on his "Price List and Order Form" at: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/pricelist_order.html Sample reviews are here: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/reviewers.html and Topics treated in the 3,700 pages of _Maledicta_ are shown here: http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/unique.html Aman is selling the remaining copies at greatly reduced prices and can be reached at aman at maledicta.org . # # # ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 16 19:19:55 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:19:55 -0600 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812160151.mBFKGO1r010246@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > > In fact, > it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that > Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a > game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone > involved that a rule was created the very next day to make > the practice in question illegal. Eddie Gaedel was a midget who had one at-bat with the St. Louis Browns on Sunday, 8/19/1951. He drew a walk. Two days later, AL president Will Harridge voided his contract. (Wikipedia wrongly says that it was on "the next day", the 20th, when Harridge did so.) Later that year, he made a plate appearance in Syracuse as a paid player in an amateur game. He struck out, leading to the wonderful headline "Midget Fans upset as Midget Fans". They don't write them like they used to . . . . Bill Mullins Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 16 20:53:42 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:53:42 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812161920.mBGIcDlW016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had no choice as to where they sat. I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: "I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." And white Bostonian *loved* him! -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > >> > >> In fact, >> it's been claimed (on some sports blog I was reading) that >> Avery is the only player of a major sport whose actions in a >> game one day that, while legal, so antagonized everyone >> involved that a rule was created the very next day to make >> the practice in question illegal. > > Eddie Gaedel was a midget who had one at-bat with the St. Louis Browns > on Sunday, 8/19/1951. > He drew a walk. > > Two days later, AL president Will Harridge voided his contract. > (Wikipedia wrongly says that it was on "the next day", the 20th, when > Harridge did so.) > > Later that year, he made a plate appearance in Syracuse as a paid player > in an amateur game. He struck out, leading to the wonderful headline > "Midget Fans upset as Midget Fans". They don't write them like they > used to . . . . > > Bill Mullins > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 16 21:33:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:33:30 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <82745f630812161253t352fa331w9803e2577ff740e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. >Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by >the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the >Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the >venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. >Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had >no choice as to where they sat. > >I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by >some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, >but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the >stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he >had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games >certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white >population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no >more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a >light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: > >"I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." > >And white Bostonian *loved* him! > >-Wilson It's curious. By the early 1960s, when the American League Brownies had moved out of town to become the Baltimore Orioles, the National League Cardinals were renowned as a team of racial harmony, and in general the National League was much more integrated on the field, if not off it, than the AL, beginning but not ending with Jackie Robinson's debut in '47.* When Curt Flood, now known mostly as the great martyr in the cause of free agency, was traded from the Cards to the Phillies, he refused to report (according to various reports, including that in detail in Halberstam's book on the 1964 season) because of the tales of how racist Philly was. So I assume, although I don't know for a fact, that by the 60s, when the Cards were the ascendant team in the National League (winning the '64 and '67 World Series and playing in the '68 one), the stands must have been integrated as well. This would have been the Augie Busch era in terms of ownership--did that make a difference? Others on this list probably know more of the details than I do. LH *The difference in racial makeup of the two leagues, especially as regards star players, was the principal reason standardly given for the NL dominance in the all-star games in those years, and to support Wilson's point the Red Sox were among the very last team to admit a black player, in the person of the otherwise forgettable Pumpsie Green. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 00:44:12 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:44:12 -0500 Subject: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812162134.mBGBl2Qp019883@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Curt Flood, plus the sale of the team to August Anheuser Busch, Jr., who built a new, fully-integrated ball park named after himself, made all the difference in the world. I recall listening - sigh! those were the good old days! - to a Cardinals game with a cousin-in-law (he was married to my cousin Lois Harrold, whose family name is the source of my first name, Harrold; Walter, AKA Wilson, NMN, Gray was my father). Flood kicked ass in that game, causing said in-law to remark, "Damn! He's going to make me a fan of the Cardinals, yet!" And, of course, once the Browns moved to Baltimore, black fans shifted their allegiance to the Cardinals, especially after the Dodgers moved to L.A., breaking the tie of the Jackie Robinson legacy. BTW, I once saw Babe Ruth. He was the guest of honor on Babe Ruth Day at a Yankees vs. Browns game. At the time, the poor old guy was already on his last legs and his voice was little more than a croak, as he addressed the overflow crowd. Little-known fact: back in the day, the best-selling beer in Saint Louis itself was not Budweiser, but Falstaff, brewed by the now-defunct Griesedieck Bros. Brewery. The prophet-without-honor bit was a great embarrassment to AB, first everywhere but in its own home town. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "sloppy seconds" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:53 PM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I remember that. Black St. Louisans were fans of the Browns. >>Sportsman's Park, the local professional baseball venue, was owned by >>the Browns and the Cardinals leased it for their home games. When the >>Browns played, there was open seating. When the Cardinals played, the >>venue was Jim-Crowed and black fans were restricted to the bleachers. >>Whites could sit in the bleachers, too, if they chose. But blacks had >>no choice as to where they sat. >> >>I could never understand this, because the Cardinals weren't owned by >>some absentee, mint-julep-sipping, racist grandee from Mississippi, >>but by a local Arab-American named Fred Saigh, who segregated the >>stadium for Cardinals games by personal fiat. I have no idea what he >>had against the colored. The Jim-Crowing of the Cardinals games >>certainly wasn't demanded by a hostile, racist, local white >>population, either, Saint Louis in the 'Forties and 'Fifties being no >>more racist than Boston in the 'Seventies and 'Eighties. As no less a >>light than the great Bill Russell once noted, WRT those days: >> >>"I'd rather be in jail in Sacramento than sheriff in Boston." >> >>And white Bostonian *loved* him! >> >>-Wilson > > It's curious. By the early 1960s, when the American League Brownies > had moved out of town to become the Baltimore Orioles, the National > League Cardinals were renowned as a team of racial harmony, and in > general the National League was much more integrated on the field, if > not off it, than the AL, beginning but not ending with Jackie > Robinson's debut in '47.* When Curt Flood, now known mostly as the > great martyr in the cause of free agency, was traded from the Cards > to the Phillies, he refused to report (according to various reports, > including that in detail in Halberstam's book on the 1964 season) > because of the tales of how racist Philly was. So I assume, although > I don't know for a fact, that by the 60s, when the Cards were the > ascendant team in the National League (winning the '64 and '67 World > Series and playing in the '68 one), the stands must have been > integrated as well. This would have been the Augie Busch era in > terms of ownership--did that make a difference? Others on this list > probably know more of the details than I do. > > LH > > *The difference in racial makeup of the two leagues, especially as > regards star players, was the principal reason standardly given for > the NL dominance in the all-star games in those years, and to support > Wilson's point the Red Sox were among the very last team to admit a > black player, in the person of the otherwise forgettable Pumpsie > Green. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 01:39:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:39:18 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" In-Reply-To: <200812161621.mBGBl214016550@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I've misread "misled" as "MAYZ-ld," too. I couldn't make hide nor hair out of the sentence. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "compromise" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anymore, when we notice a spelling pronunciation of this type (I > guess it's in the "MAYZ-l'd" for _misled_ category) we should be > reassured that folks are still reading... > > LH > > At 10:03 AM -0500 12/16/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgia: >> >>"Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? >> >>Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white >>aerospace engineer: >> >>"Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." >> >> >>I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, >>at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate >>would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time >>when I would have said, "com PROMising." >> >>-Wilson >>--- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Mark Twain >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Wed Dec 17 05:43:39 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:43:39 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2008 12:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgi= a: "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white aerospace engineer: "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time when I would have said, "com PROMising." Could she have meant "co-promising"? Pronounced CO-PROM-is-ing. That would make sense, and a wedding (if not the entire marriage) is, after all, an exchange of mutual promises. Rosemarie None are so poor that they have nothing to give ? and none are so rich that they have nothing to receive. JP **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 17 12:57:02 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:57:02 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) In-Reply-To: <200812170543.mBH23Wvg016546@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You never know. My wife once asked me whether I wanted to hear about her day. I said no. Of course, I meant to say yes. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Your Name wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Your Name > Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 2008 to 16 Dec 2008 (#2008-351) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 12/17/2008 12:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =20 > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > =20 > =20 > Judge Penny [pInI], forty-four-year-old, black female speaker from Georgi= > =3D > a: > > "Do you know what a marriage [m&:G] is [iIz]? > > Forty-four-year-old, Latino female college graduate married to a white > aerospace engineer: > > "Yes. It's two people compromising "com PROMising" ["kam 'pram at sIN]." > > > I've never heard this pronunciation before. Which is not to say that, > at one time, I wouldn't have used it, myself. It's only that, as fate > would have it, I never had occasion to speak this word during the time > when I would have said, "com PROMising." > =20 > =20 > > Could she have meant "co-promising"? Pronounced CO-PROM-is-ing. That =20 > would make sense, and a wedding (if not the entire marriage) is, after all,=20= > an =20 > exchange of mutual promises. =20 > =20 > Rosemarie > > None are so poor that they have nothing to give =E2=80=A6 and none are so r= > ich that=20 > they have nothing to receive.=20 > > > > > JP > > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and=20 > favorite sites in one place. Try it now.=20 > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp&icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolco= > m00000010) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Dec 17 20:23:09 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:23:09 -0800 Subject: antedate for "blue collar" (OED: 1950) Message-ID: The five-man committee stressed the need for the following speedy remedial actions: . . . Simplification of the efficiency rating system for ?blue collar workers? to make it more easily understood by employes [sic]. ?Labor Corrections at Navy Yard Urged, " New York Times, Jul 15, 1945 That's well after "white collar," which the OED puts in 1919. Which leads me to wonder: when did workingmen start wearing shirts with collars, anyway? Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Dec 17 21:42:44 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:42:44 -0800 Subject: antedate for Johnny (John) Doughboy, 1892 (RHDAS: 1918) Message-ID: "... there ain't nothin' like a drink-cravin' 'cept a drug-cravin'. I seen that on a Johnny Doughboy in Montana." "The Court at Big G Ranch," by Thomas B. Monfort, in Two Tales, 1892. (Google Books) RHDAS has 1918 for "John/Johnny Doughboy" but has "doughboy" for infantryman from 1847, so the earlier "Johnny Doughboy" isn't surprising. Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Dec 17 23:34:02 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:34:02 -0600 Subject: "let's play two" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200808080223.m77JiXBe004156@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE The Yale Book of Quotes has 1972 for "Let's play two" from Ernie Banks. "Banks Majors' Happiest Warrior," By Ray Sons. Charleston Daily Mail 3/14/1969 p. 24 col 3. "And he hollers to anyone who will listen: "Let's play two games today. It's too nice a day for just one." " "Sports Mirror" by John Mooney, _The Salt Lake Tribune_ 4/7/1969 p. 25 col 1. "Yet, he's [Banks] prancing like a rookie, taking one more lap and setting an example as he beams, "Let's play two games today. It's too nice a day just for one." " "Ernie's Smile Hides Gloom from Bears" DON PIERSON; _Chicago Tribune_ Oct 6, 1971 pg. C2 "He [Banks] saw a Bears' trainer wearing a Cubs cap and yelled "Let's play ball. What a beautiful day. Let's play two today." " Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Dec 18 00:45:45 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:45:45 -0600 Subject: Project Management Lingo (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200709101301.l8AAm97e005922@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Check the post, as well as the comments. http://sippey.typepad.com/filtered/2008/12/project-management-lingo.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 04:32:06 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:32:06 -0500 Subject: A dialect split Message-ID: I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:25:09 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:25:09 +0800 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHHeMZe020276@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. Randy On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A dialect split > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 08:53:50 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:53:50 +0800 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHHeMZe020276@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Reposting in plain text (sorry).] I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. Randy On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A dialect split > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > > -Wilson > ??? > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Dec 18 14:04:26 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:04:26 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180500.mBHLFUXc020280@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." Don't forget 2k10 [tu.ke.tEn]. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 05:23:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:23:30 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <82745f630812172032o7c6cace7n848ea280321652f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." > >-Wilson I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the "twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been "twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 14:52:06 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:52:06 -0500 Subject: A dialect split In-Reply-To: <200812180853.mBHLFUis020280@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah, I didn't mean to imply that I was totally taken aback by this phenomenon. I merely found iit mildly interesting that people are alreeady lining up, so to speak, a year aheaad of time. No doubt, just as people already say, "two-thousand-eight," "two-o-eight," and "two-eight," some people will say "two-ten" as well as "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten," or maybe even "two-o-ten," when the year 2010 arrives. You never know. FWIW, I intend to go with "twenty-ten." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: A dialect split > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [Reposting in plain text (sorry).] > > I'm surprised that you're surprised by that. > > Twenty-ten is no stranger than nineteen-ten, and two-thousand-ten is > no stranger than two-thousand-nine. The former may be less formal. > > Randy > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A dialect split >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >> >> -Wilson >> ??? >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 18 15:26:54 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:26:54 +0000 Subject: dialect jokes In-Reply-To: <200812180432.mBHMK9X8015981@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A Georgia State trooper pulled over a pickup on I- 75. The trooper asked: "Got any I.D.?" The driver replied: "Bout wut?" A man in North Carolina had a flat tire, pulled off on the side of the road, and proceeded to put flowers in front of the car and behind it. A passerby studied the scene and asked the fellow what the problem was. The man replied: "I have a flat tire." The passerby asked: "But what's with the flowers?" The man responded: "They said When you break down put flares in the front and flares in the back. Hey, it don't make no sense to me neither." Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Dec 18 16:10:16 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:10:16 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: <200812181549.mBIFnDVW020249@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:49, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because > it is one [or two] syllables shorter. I've observed that when people are not thinking about what they're calling the year, "twenty nine" and "twenty eight" and so forth are more common than "twenty oh nine" or "twenty oh eight." Even though that's counterintuitive. I believe it works because the year "2029" is sufficiently far off for there to be little confusion. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Dec 18 15:49:08 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:49:08 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/18/2008 12:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >> >>-Wilson > >I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the >"twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because >I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many >years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But >a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been >"twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because it is one [or two] syllables shorter. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 18 19:53:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:53:30 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:10 AM -0500 12/18/08, Grant Barrett wrote: >On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:49, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >>"Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because >>it is one [or two] syllables shorter. > >I've observed that when people are not thinking about what they're >calling the year, "twenty nine" and "twenty eight" and so forth are >more common than "twenty oh nine" or "twenty oh eight." Even though >that's counterintuitive. I believe it works because the year "2029" is >sufficiently far off for there to be little confusion. > As I said, I'm a "two thousand (and) nine" speaker, but I suspect that for the other group there may be a different juncture for "29" ("twenty-nine") and "2009" pronounced as "twenty - nine". Maybe not obligatorily, but typically, the latter has a longer pause. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 19 15:01:56 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:01:56 -0500 Subject: W=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F6rter?= des Jahres In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now comes the Swiss German WOTY: Rettungspaket = 'rescue package' http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news_digest/Rescue_package_named_Word_of_the_Year.html On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > German WOTY: Finanzkrise = 'financial crisis' > http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081211-16071.html > > German youth WOTY: Gammelfleischparty = lit. 'spoiled meat party' > (gathering of people over 30) > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6157309.html > > Austrian WOTY: Lebensmensch = 'special friend' (for closeted gay partner) > http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/245728,haiders-sexuality-inspires-austrian-word-of-the-year--feature.html > > > --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Fri Dec 19 16:52:22 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:52:22 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" Message-ID: Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass noun, like "scampi." AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 17:09:51 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:09:51 -0500 Subject: 2010 In-Reply-To: <200812181549.mBIEPwK1008838@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've gone with "twenty-hundred," "twenty-o-one," etc. I haven't come across anyone else who does this, so far. And, if I never do, LIGAF. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: 2010 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/18/2008 12:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>At 11:32 PM -0500 12/17/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>I've already heard both "twenty-ten" and "two-thousand-ten." >>> >>>-Wilson >> >>I wonder if the "twenty-ten" speakers are co-extensive than the >>"twenty-oh-eight" speakers. I'm in the other group, possibly because >>I always referred to the movie as "two thousand and one" for many >>years before we actually reached the year (without HAL's help). But >>a colleague of mine was in the "twenty-oh-one" group, and it's been >>"twenty-oh-n" ever since. I'm sure it will be "twenty ten" for him. > > "Twenty ten" may win out over "Two thousand [and] ten" simply because > it is one [or two] syllables shorter. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 19 17:42:00 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:42:00 -0800 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191652.mBJBrMmQ029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: singular "small fry" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, > of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is > perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass > noun, like "scampi." this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". the OED has no clearly singular count uses, but you can google up plenty of them: a NYT headline "A Big Struggle Over a Small Fry", a t-shirt "Just a Small Fry", "As all those petite, wannabe-tall yet slow-to-grow youngsters know, life as a small fry can have its disadvantages", "As a small fry we offer custom product assemblies", and many more (plus references to french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Fri Dec 19 18:10:54 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:10:54 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? Message-ID: A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make ?a buck? ? a million dollars. More than 100 people in Merrill?s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ -- The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, escalation wise? dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 19 18:15:38 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:15:38 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? In-Reply-To: <2631B38D0C130D0A3617002004@Seamus> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:10:54PM -0500, Doug Harris wrote: > A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a > new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": > _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make ?a buck? ? a million dollars. More than 100 people in > Merrill?s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ > -- > The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the > rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. > It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then > a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. > Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other > specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, > escalation wise? HDAS has examples of _buck_ as $100, $1000, and $100,000.... _buck_ '$1,000,000' has been common for some years on Wall Street. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 18:50:56 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:50:56 -0500 Subject: just deserts--again Message-ID: Last night, Josh Marshall commented on the Norm Coleman situation in a post he titled "Just Desserts". This generated some responses from readers: [and follow-up responses:] 1. P.S. Only one "s" in Just Deserts. 2. Depends - if he means a sweet something as a final course in a meal then it's "dessert" If it's a hot, dry, sandy landscape or to leave without intention of returning then it's "desert" 3. Hate to be pedantic but actually it doesn't: 4. ...but what if you're skipping dinner and having "just dessert"...or was it diner? 5. Just deserts over there in Iraq. Just desserts on the menu there in Minnesota. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:03:55 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:03:55 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <239AEA55-98DC-46AF-8E48-CA263BD5A75A@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Alison Murie >>Subject: singular "small fry" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, >>of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is >>perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass >>noun, like "scampi." > >this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual >use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a >count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural >syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small >fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". the OED has no clearly >singular count uses, but you can google up plenty of them: a NYT >headline "A Big Struggle Over a Small Fry", a t-shirt "Just a Small >Fry", "As all those petite, wannabe-tall yet slow-to-grow youngsters >know, life as a small fry can have its disadvantages", "As a small fry >we offer custom product assemblies", and many more (plus references to >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). > >arnold For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must crash some speakers' mental grammar check. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:08:59 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:08:59 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? In-Reply-To: <20081219181538.GA11422@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1:15 PM -0500 12/19/08, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:10:54PM -0500, Doug Harris wrote: >> A NY Times business story today ("On Wall >>Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") >>included a >> new-to-me escalation of the amount of money >>that might be referred to as "a buck": >> _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make ?a >>buck? ? a million dollars. More than 100 people >>in >> Merrill?s bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ >> -- >> The second sentence suggests how widespread >>that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in >>the >> rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. >> It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a >>'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five >>dollars, then >> a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it >>used to represent a thousand dollars a time or >>two. >> Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the >>'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted >>other >> specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or >>$100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) >>usage unique, >> escalation wise? > >HDAS has examples of _buck_ as $100, $1000, and $100,000.... > >_buck_ '$1,000,000' has been common for some years on Wall >Street. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > Then too, as we've discussed on a thread a few years back, there are the metaphorical extensions: a shortstop weighing 175 and hitting .150 could be said to weigh a buck seventy-five and to be hitting a buck fifty. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Dec 19 19:19:57 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:19:57 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191904.mBJBl2Pa029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ... (plus references to > >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from > >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). > > > >arnold > > For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must > crash some speakers' mental grammar check. Unless the question actually referred to one small French-fry -- one piece/stick/St?ck. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Dec 19 19:29:44 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:29:44 -0500 Subject: What the Buck? Message-ID: But it's still the case that a money market fund's failure to maintain a constant net asset value of $1.00 per share is "breaking the buck." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 1:11 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: What the Buck? A NY Times business story today ("On Wall Street, Bonuses, Not Profits, Were Real ") included a new-to-me escalation of the amount of money that might be referred to as "a buck": _On Wall Street, the first goal was to make "a buck" - a million dollars. More than 100 people in Merrill's bond unit alone broke the million-dollar mark in 2006._ -- The second sentence suggests how widespread that understanding of 'buck' apparently is in the rightfully-endangered fast-buck community around Wall Street. It seems like only yesterday, or so, that a 'buck' was a dollar. Then it became five dollars, then a hundred, and I seem to recall hearing it used to represent a thousand dollars a time or two. Maybe, if you hang in the right circles, the 'buck' moniker has been attached to assorted other specific amounts -- say, $100,000, or $100,000,000. Or is Wall Street's (recent?) usage unique, escalation wise? dh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 19:31:33 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:31:33 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812191119u7081d216y4428ca6d5258f5e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:19 PM -0500 12/19/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> ... (plus references to >> >french fries, as in "How many calories in a small fry from >> >McDonalds?" , where the reference is to a small order of french fries). >> > >> >arnold >> >> For me, that last has to be "a small fries", but I suppose that must >> crash some speakers' mental grammar check. > >Unless the question actually referred to one small French-fry -- one >piece/stick/St?ck. > Hard (although not impossible) to take it that way, given that there's no well-defined category of a small french-fried-potato-St?ck-from-McDonald's to which an average calorie content could be assigned, as opposed to that of a small Pepsi-from-McDonald's. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Dec 19 21:15:02 2008 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:15:02 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191931.mBJJGYUo029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Hard (although not impossible) to take it that > way, given that there's no well-defined category > of a small > french-fried-potato-St?ck-from-McDonald's to > which an average calorie content could be > assigned, as opposed to that of a small > Pepsi-from-McDonald's. Pepsi from McDonald's? Highly unlikely. or unReal. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 19 21:41:45 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:41:45 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0500 12/19/08, Ann Burlingham wrote: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Hard (although not impossible) to take it that >> way, given that there's no well-defined category >> of a small >> french-fried-potato-St?ck-from-McDonald's to >> which an average calorie content could be >> assigned, as opposed to that of a small >> Pepsi-from-McDonald's. > >Pepsi from McDonald's? Highly unlikely. or unReal. Oh, are they on the Coke side of the isocola? Well, mutatis mutandis. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Fri Dec 19 22:43:05 2008 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:43:05 -0600 Subject: DARE on Google Books Message-ID: I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also supportive of this move toward open access. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Dec 19 23:02:58 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:02:58 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] DARE on Goo gle Books Message-ID: This is good news--and I know that you look forward to the day when HUP moves far enough beyond the 20th century actually to license research libraries to make 100% of DARE available to patrons on the internet. Google Books is sooooo weird. I recently tried to access an article in WORD STUDY from the 1940s, reprinted from the Princeton Review. I could only get bits and pieces of it. WHY? No one seems to know. I finally wrote to Merriam and someone there was quite willing to scan the whole article and send it to me. Ditto the Princeton Review. GB seems to be protecting the copyright of publishers who have no interest in having the articles protected. GB says that they scanned the WS article in the University of Michigan library. Could Michigan be objecting? In a message dated 12/19/08 5:43:15 PM, jdhall at WISC.EDU writes: > I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now > accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited > Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total > content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard > University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also > supportive of this move toward open access. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 20 03:32:04 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:32:04 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] DARE on Google Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Google has deep pockets and is erring* on the side of caution. I think that unless they get specific approval for the individual work, then they only make portions available. What we really need is a complete overhaul of copyright law in light of the digital age. Something along the lines of if a work is not registered, the copyright expires in 7 years. And once registered, require copyright holders to make a positive affirmation every few years of their continued interest in keeping a work out of the public domain. If they don't, the copyright lapses and the work enters the public domain. If done right, this could be all be done electronically over the internet and with a minimum of cost to both the government and publishers. This would allow a huge amount of material that has no market value to be made widely available without fear of lawsuit. It would also solve the issue of "orphaned" works to which no one knows whom the copyright belongs to. * = Excessively, in my opinion, but they're the ones on the hook to pay if they get sued. Also, given the size of Google Books and the fact that they make money off the ads, they could be subject to criminal copyright violations if they don't do it right. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] DARE on Google Books This is good news--and I know that you look forward to the day when HUP moves far enough beyond the 20th century actually to license research libraries to make 100% of DARE available to patrons on the internet. Google Books is sooooo weird. I recently tried to access an article in WORD STUDY from the 1940s, reprinted from the Princeton Review. I could only get bits and pieces of it. WHY? No one seems to know. I finally wrote to Merriam and someone there was quite willing to scan the whole article and send it to me. Ditto the Princeton Review. GB seems to be protecting the copyright of publishers who have no interest in having the articles protected. GB says that they scanned the WS article in the University of Michigan library. Could Michigan be objecting? In a message dated 12/19/08 5:43:15 PM, jdhall at WISC.EDU writes: > I thought you'd like to know that all four volumes of DARE are now > accessible through a Google Books search. While the format is a "Limited > Preview," it does allow one to see up to ten per cent of the total > content within a thirty-day period. We're pleased that Harvard > University Press was willing to agree to this, and NEH is also > supportive of this move toward open access. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 04:03:06 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:03:06 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? Message-ID: I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google hits for each show rotator cuff 1,320,000 rotator cup 9,310 blood pressure cuff 334,000 blood pressure cup 1,510 Many of the "cup" hits clearly identify the object. In some cases of BPcuff, pictures and model numbers are provided. And why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP instrument no longer obviously resembles one? Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 04:10:20 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:10:20 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns Message-ID: It's actually child-speak. More specifically, these were utterances by 4yr4mo old kid. In the first clip, the kid speaks first, in the second--second. 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. -- Do you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! 2. [Leafing through the animal picture book] -- Sharks eat fish, like mackerel. -- Yeah! it's the *macaroni fish*. -- Macaroni fish? -- Yes, if you slice it and fry it, you get macaroni and cheese. Hope everyone is well entertained for the holidays! VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 06:58:06 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:58:06 -0500 Subject: single father Message-ID: There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single fathers would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is much easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. Not so now.
As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. But his priority right now is making his child support payments.
Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading this, the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an isolated incident? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Dec 20 07:22:24 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:22:24 -0800 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812200658.mBJJGYKS029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the past. BB On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: single father > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > fathers > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > much > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > Not so now. > > > >
> As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. >
> > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > this, > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > isolated incident? > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Dec 20 14:02:55 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 06:02:55 -0800 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <6FCBA3D0-0EC7-42F5-9735-95FA78F69060@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the child's upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which is why the father is making child-support payments. I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to have most of the day-to-day care of the child. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: single father It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the past. BB On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: single father > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > fathers > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > much > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > Not so now. > > > >
> As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. >
> > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > this, > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > isolated incident? > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 15:09:16 2008 From: aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:09:16 -0500 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812201403.mBKBsPOr023445@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) Andrea On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: single father > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: > > "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the > responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one > parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint > custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, > however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the > child's > upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." > > It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which > is why the father is making child-support payments. > > I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to > have most of the day-to-day care of the child. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: single father > > It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he > has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. > > Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the > past. BB > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor > > Subject: single father > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > > fathers > > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > > much > > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > > > Not so now. > > > > > > > >
> > As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. > >
> > > > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > > this, > > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > > isolated incident? > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 15:26:51 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:26:51 +0000 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't this just an ambiguity between a compound and an adjective-plus-noun construction, like blackbird and black bird? Or an ambiguity I'm the meaning of "single"? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Andrea Morrow Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:09:16 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] single father My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) Andrea On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: single father > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.: > > "joint custody. An arrangement by which both parents share the > responsibility for and authority over the child at all times, although one > parent may exercise primary physical custody. [...] An award of joint > custody does not necessarily mean an equal sharing of time; it does, > however, mean that the parents will consult and share equally in the > child's > upbringing and in decision-making about upbringing." > > It sounds like the mother has primary physical custody in this case, which > is why the father is making child-support payments. > > I would not use "single father" in this case, since the mother appears to > have most of the day-to-day care of the child. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: single father > > It looks like a mix-up or else that something is missing to me. If he > has custody, he shouldn't have to make support payments. > > Possibly, the support payments are back payments that he missed in the > past. BB > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:58 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor > > Subject: single father > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > There seems to be an evolution of single fatherhood. My assumption has > > always been that the term was, essentially, custodial. So, a single > > father would have been someone whose spouse/partner/mother of child > > either died or left the household, leaving the children behind. This > > would also include more rare cases where the children were placed with > > the father by a court order (for whatever reason). Thus, single > > fathers > > would, generally, have been more rare than single mothers, as it is > > much > > easier for a father to disappear without acknowledging a child. > > > > Not so now. > > > > > > > >
> > As disappointing as it was for Campo to lose a job that he liked, this > > 21-year-old has more responsibilities than most of his peers working > > retail. He's a single father who recently won joint custody of his > > 2-year-old son. Campo is also putting himself through school, studying > > math with hopes of becoming a high school calculus teacher. > > > > But his priority right now is making his child support payments. > >
> > > > Child support payments usually imply shared and non-primary custody, > > a.k.a. non-custodial parent. So, unless I am completely misreading > > this, > > the use here is of two "single parents"--both custodial and > > non-custodial. Is this in common usage now? Or is this simply an > > isolated incident? > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 20 18:01:13 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:01:13 -0500 Subject: political catchphrases of the year Message-ID: Marc Ambinder of The Atlantic has an online poll for the most memorable political catchphrase of 2008: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/yearend_poll_political_catch_p.php The nominees (none of which made Fred Shapiro's list of the top 10 quotes of the year) are: "Fire It Up. Ready to Go." [sic] "Yes We Can." "Therefore, I'm suspending my campaign...." "I'm in it to win it." "A F*$)^* Valuable Thing." As numerous commenters point out, the first catchphrase (used by Obama on the campaign trail) should actually be "Fired up, ready to go." "Fire it up" looks like a mondeggcorn. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 20 18:27:05 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:27:05 -0500 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <200812201509.mBKBrrYq025513@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's possible that my sense of single parenthood is messed up and I am just digging myself deeper in by raising the issue. Unfortunately, I don't appear to be alone in this. From the review of recent news reports, about the same number of references to "single father" identify the mother as missing or nonexistent ("not in the children's lives") as fail to refer to the mother at all. From the first 50, I found only one case where a "single father" was identified as living with his girlfriend (or any other spouse-like entity). Although this particular father had a 6 month old and a two year old child, no mention was made in the article whether the "girlfriend" was the mother. Below are several examples of the first kind (no mother). The "Pursuit of Happiness" reference is an exception, as there is no reference to the mother, but it's another "wife left" story.
[Ricky] Martin is now showing the world pictures of his newborn (this summer) twin sons (via People magazine), who were born to a woman whose name is unknown. Reportedly, not a paramour of Martin's, but instead, a mother who birthed the babies and is no longer playing an active role in their lives.
Carl, age 40, is a single father who lives in a small apartment with his four children. One night last November, while the family was sleeping, Carl's wife left. Her note said she'd met someone else. They haven't heard from her since.
Siringi, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in August, is a single father responsible for two children and a brother, said his lawyer, Bruce Hoffer. His mother is due to arrive from Kenya on Friday.
Duniphan said she still is surprised her son-in-law, Army Pfc. Benjamin Silva did not attend the hearing Thursday. Silva, now a single father of two young daughters, was deployed in Iraq at the time of his wife's slaying.
The movie re-teams Smith with Gabriele Muccino, the director who helped make "The Pursuit of Happyness" such a wonderful surprise via Smith's portrait of a single father who'll do anything for his son.
As a single father, Stone Fisher knows the challenges of providing for a family. ... Fisher says he feels fortunate that he has had so much help from his parents, sister and cousin in raising his boys, Jacob, 13, and Gabriel, 9, both of whom live with him.
==
Single parents, for the purpose of this report, include people who may be married but not living with their spouse, as well as other divorced, widowed, or never-married people.
Elsewhere, the Census identifies a "custodial parent" as one entitled to child support (aside from the less common instances when the economic balance of the parents precludes child support).
The reason most often cited for not having a legal child support agreement by the 6.6 million custodial parents without them was that they did not feel the need to go to court and make it legal (32 percent).
Number of single fathers in 2000, up from 393,000 in 1970. There was roughly one single father for every five single mothers in 2000, compared with about one for every nine in 1970. Among these fathers ... 45 percent were divorced; 34 percent had never married; 17 percent were married with an absent spouse; and 4 percent were widowed.
=== Overall, on the surface, the US Census is neutral as to the status of the other parent. But, from the context, it is clear that the parents with whom the children live are the "single parents". It is not clear how the Census would handle those couples that divide parenting time exactly equally, but from what I've seen so far, the terms "singe" and "custodial" are often interchangeable in Census reports. In all other cases, only one parent can legally be the custodial parent, irrespectively of how they arrange the parenting time (that is, it is possible for a parent to have primary custody of children who spent less than half the time at that parent's home; the IRS would consider this situation different, but the Census does not). So children may spend 70% of the time at the father's home and the Census would still not count him as a single father if he does not have primary custody. The class is between administrative, legal and socially-constructed definitions. My original query concerned the apparent increase in separation between the latter, which is maleable, and the other two, which are fairly close to being set in stone (in the past, the usage would have been fairly similar across all three). Your statements only strengthens this perception. (The Census would count neither you nor your former husband as single parents, because the custodial parent is not unmarried.) Please note that I am not attaching any affect or moral judgment to the term. I am strictly looking at the context of its usage. It is possible that, if the social use of the term is changing, the administrative definition will have to evolve as well. VS-) Andrea Morrow wrote: > My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our > 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a > "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child > support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single > dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that > odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) > Andrea ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 20 19:04:50 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:04:50 +0000 Subject: single father In-Reply-To: <494D38F9.5020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: I still don't see a linguistic problem here. You can also find cites for "lighthouse keeping" and "light housekeeping"--so what? Both are correct English, they just mean different things. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Victor Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:27:05 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] single father It's possible that my sense of single parenthood is messed up and I am just digging myself deeper in by raising the issue. Unfortunately, I don't appear to be alone in this. From the review of recent news reports, about the same number of references to "single father" identify the mother as missing or nonexistent ("not in the children's lives") as fail to refer to the mother at all. From the first 50, I found only one case where a "single father" was identified as living with his girlfriend (or any other spouse-like entity). Although this particular father had a 6 month old and a two year old child, no mention was made in the article whether the "girlfriend" was the mother. Below are several examples of the first kind (no mother). The "Pursuit of Happiness" reference is an exception, as there is no reference to the mother, but it's another "wife left" story.
[Ricky] Martin is now showing the world pictures of his newborn (this summer) twin sons (via People magazine), who were born to a woman whose name is unknown. Reportedly, not a paramour of Martin's, but instead, a mother who birthed the babies and is no longer playing an active role in their lives.
Carl, age 40, is a single father who lives in a small apartment with his four children. One night last November, while the family was sleeping, Carl's wife left. Her note said she'd met someone else. They haven't heard from her since.
Siringi, who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in August, is a single father responsible for two children and a brother, said his lawyer, Bruce Hoffer. His mother is due to arrive from Kenya on Friday.
Duniphan said she still is surprised her son-in-law, Army Pfc. Benjamin Silva did not attend the hearing Thursday. Silva, now a single father of two young daughters, was deployed in Iraq at the time of his wife's slaying.
The movie re-teams Smith with Gabriele Muccino, the director who helped make "The Pursuit of Happyness" such a wonderful surprise via Smith's portrait of a single father who'll do anything for his son.
As a single father, Stone Fisher knows the challenges of providing for a family. ... Fisher says he feels fortunate that he has had so much help from his parents, sister and cousin in raising his boys, Jacob, 13, and Gabriel, 9, both of whom live with him.
==
Single parents, for the purpose of this report, include people who may be married but not living with their spouse, as well as other divorced, widowed, or never-married people.
Elsewhere, the Census identifies a "custodial parent" as one entitled to child support (aside from the less common instances when the economic balance of the parents precludes child support).
The reason most often cited for not having a legal child support agreement by the 6.6 million custodial parents without them was that they did not feel the need to go to court and make it legal (32 percent).
Number of single fathers in 2000, up from 393,000 in 1970. There was roughly one single father for every five single mothers in 2000, compared with about one for every nine in 1970. Among these fathers ... 45 percent were divorced; 34 percent had never married; 17 percent were married with an absent spouse; and 4 percent were widowed.
=== Overall, on the surface, the US Census is neutral as to the status of the other parent. But, from the context, it is clear that the parents with whom the children live are the "single parents". It is not clear how the Census would handle those couples that divide parenting time exactly equally, but from what I've seen so far, the terms "singe" and "custodial" are often interchangeable in Census reports. In all other cases, only one parent can legally be the custodial parent, irrespectively of how they arrange the parenting time (that is, it is possible for a parent to have primary custody of children who spent less than half the time at that parent's home; the IRS would consider this situation different, but the Census does not). So children may spend 70% of the time at the father's home and the Census would still not count him as a single father if he does not have primary custody. The class is between administrative, legal and socially-constructed definitions. My original query concerned the apparent increase in separation between the latter, which is maleable, and the other two, which are fairly close to being set in stone (in the past, the usage would have been fairly similar across all three). Your statements only strengthens this perception. (The Census would count neither you nor your former husband as single parents, because the custodial parent is not unmarried.) Please note that I am not attaching any affect or moral judgment to the term. I am strictly looking at the context of its usage. It is possible that, if the social use of the term is changing, the administrative definition will have to evolve as well. VS-) Andrea Morrow wrote: > My ex-husband (with whom I have joint physical and legal custody of our > 12-year-old son) would be shocked to hear that you wouldn't consider him a > "single father." We split parenting time equally, and he does pay child > support due to the disparity in our incomes. He calls him self a "single > dad" or "single father", and no one here in Michigan seems to find that > odd. (I'm remarried, so I'm not a single mom!) > Andrea ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 20 19:38:11 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:38:11 +0000 Subject: political catchphrases of the year In-Reply-To: <200812201811.mBKBsPRf023445@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 20 Dec 2008, at 18:01, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > Marc Ambinder of The Atlantic has an online poll for the most > memorable political catchphrase of 2008: > > http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/yearend_poll_political_catch_p.php > > The nominees (none of which made Fred Shapiro's list of the top 10 > quotes of the year) are: > > "Fire It Up. Ready to Go." [sic] > "Yes We Can." > "Therefore, I'm suspending my campaign...." > "I'm in it to win it." > "A F*$)^* Valuable Thing." As an aside, "Yes, we can" made the German (Gesellschaft f?r deutsche Sprache) Wort des Jahres shortlist, at place 10. (Also, in German, 'Wort' can also mean '(idiomatic) expression' or '(catch)phrase', in addition to 'word', and the two senses take different plural forms ('Worte' vs 'W?rter'. This is a bit of a grey area, though, as the German list definitely may contain short phrases, but you'd still talk about "W?rter des Jahres".) Best, Chris Waigl hoping that mail.app encodes the iso-8859-1 Umlaute in an ADS-L compatible way ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Dec 21 01:24:29 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:24:29 -0800 Subject: "limerick" Message-ID: The quote refers to the unutterably?trite works of the character "Jem Casey" in Flann O'Brien's _At Swim-Two-Birds_ (1939).? Since none of them are true limericks, the intended sense seems to be "any banal, strongly rhythmic verse; a doggerel." ? 1984 Maureen Waters _The Comic Irishman_ (Albany, N.Y.: SUNY Press) 127: While the People affect a cultivated regard for literature, they secretly prefer the limericks of Jem Casey, who eulogizes a "pint of plain" as the only friend of the working man. ? At the time of writing, Dr. Waters was Assistant Professor of English at Queens College, CUNY. ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From email1 at FOLKLORE.MS Sun Dec 21 04:03:00 2008 From: email1 at FOLKLORE.MS (John-Patrick) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:03:00 -0600 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Message-ID: Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 05:21:30 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:21:30 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <239AEA55-98DC-46AF-8E48-CA263BD5A75A@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0800 12/19/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Alison Murie >>Subject: singular "small fry" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, >>of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is >>perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass >>noun, like "scampi." > >this confusion appears again and again: mass vs. plural. the usual >use of "small fry" is *not* as a mass noun, but as a zero plural (of a >count noun). the OED cites for "small fry" show clearly plural >syntax: "From the small fry that glide ...", "One of the small >fry ...", "all other managers were small fry". Here's another, from today's NYT Magazine (Randy Cohen's "The Ethicist"): While the rules [for NYC bus seating priority] seem to permit free-riding small fry to take a seat on a local bus, ethics urges them and everyone hale and hearty to offer that seat to any passenger who, for whatever reason--age, infirmity, advanced pregnancy, sheer weariness--genuinely needs it. Assuming "them" is coindexed with "small fry" (and not, say, with "the rules"), this is pretty clearly a plural "small fry". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 21 07:38:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:38:57 -0500 Subject: singular "small fry" In-Reply-To: <200812191652.mBJBrMmQ029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Engelhardt's phrase sounds fully grammatical, as well as perfectly clear and reasonable, to me. What should he have written, "He was just small fry" or what? Is he perhaps a BE speaker? Or some kind of alien? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Alison Murie wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: singular "small fry" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Engelhardt, writing about the collapse of the book market, says, > of one of its victims, "He was just a small fry"....... While this is > perfectly clear & reasonable, to me, "small fry" is an invariable mass > noun, like "scampi." > AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 21 11:48:37 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:48:37 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting John-Patrick : > Hello, > > I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after > the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of > Limericks": > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 > > > This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy > of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone > find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? > > Any help is appreciated. > > Yours, > > John Patrick WorldCat has: A book of limericks, Edward Lear 1888 English Book Book xxii p., 1 l., [25]-85, 81 p., 2 l., [7]-37 p., 2 l., 7-41 p. illus. 20 cm. Boston, Little, Brown, and company Get This Item # Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 59 # Find this in your library Connect to the catalog at your library # External Resources: # Link to external web site Cite This Item Find Related More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Find Items About: Lear, Edward, (max: 498) Title: A book of limericks, Author(s): Lear, Edward, 1812-1888. Publication: Boston, Little, Brown, and company Year: 1888 Description: xxii p., 1 l., [25]-85, 81 p., 2 l., [7]-37 p., 2 l., 7-41 p. illus. 20 cm. Language: English Standard No: LCCN: 41-38057 SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Limericks. Note(s): Includes music. Class Descriptors: LC: PR4879.L2 Responsibility: by Edward Lear, illustrated by the author. Document Type: Book Entry: 19720622 Update: 20080902 Accession No: OCLC: 338649 Database: WorldCat And it's available (from the NY Public Library copy) at Internet Archive: http://firstsearch.oclc.org/WebZ/FSPage?pagetype=return_frameset:sessionid=fsapp9-39463-fozmr47y-5v9tms:entitypagenum=7:0:entityframedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archive.org%2Fdetails%2Fbookoflimericks00lear:entityframedtitle=WorldCat:entityframedtimeout=15:entityopenTitle=:entityopenAuthor=:entityopenNumber=: Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 21 12:20:31 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:20:31 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT Message-ID: Latest installment of Grant Barrett's yearly buzzword list, lavishly fonted in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/weekinreview/buzzwords2008.html Also, blog discussion, with input from GB said to be forthcoming, at: http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/whats-your-buzzword-of-2008/ Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are not auspicious. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 12:24:19 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:24:19 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a really important and really strange antedating. It seems unlikely to be legitimate on a number of counts: such a big antedating of OED for a word that they would have put some work into tracing (James Murray inquired in Notes and Queries as to its origin); it's published by a major American publisher but I can't find any mention of it in the four big U.S. newspaper databases; I have never found any other mention of the word "limerick" in conjunction with Edward Lear anywhere near that early. Yet WorldCat and the Library of Congress catalog and the Yale catalog and the Stanford catalog all date it 1888. I'll try to take a look at the Yale copy. I'm guessing it could be a later printing of Lear's "Book of Nonsense" with a new title but still retaining the 1888 copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of John-Patrick [email1 at FOLKLORE.MS] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 21 12:27:37 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:27:37 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT In-Reply-To: <20081221122031.GA27789@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the shout-out. > Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are > not auspicious. I specifically asked that we get some kind of exhortation to the readers that the comments take a turn for the positive, but the editors demurred. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 12:39:21 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:39:21 -0500 Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CA54@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the later-printing theory. WorldCat and LC and Yale and Stanford don't say the date of publication was 1888, they just say the copyright date was 1888. And the copyright holder is a different company from the publisher. Little, Brown probably reprinted it at some much later date with the old copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED This is a really important and really strange antedating. It seems unlikely to be legitimate on a number of counts: such a big antedating of OED for a word that they would have put some work into tracing (James Murray inquired in Notes and Queries as to its origin); it's published by a major American publisher but I can't find any mention of it in the four big U.S. newspaper databases; I have never found any other mention of the word "limerick" in conjunction with Edward Lear anywhere near that early. Yet WorldCat and the Library of Congress catalog and the Yale catalog and the Stanford catalog all date it 1888. I'll try to take a look at the Yale copy. I'm guessing it could be a later printing of Lear's "Book of Nonsense" with a new title but still retaining the 1888 copyright notice. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of John-Patrick [email1 at FOLKLORE.MS] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating "limerick" (1888) ? OED Hello, I have found an edition of Edward Lear's book issued in 1888 after the death of Lear in January of that year that is titled "A Book of Limericks": http://books.google.com/books?id=sGoOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=limericks+date:1870-1890+poem+OR+poems+OR+verse&client=firefox-a#PPR7,M1 This antedates "limerick" in the OED by 8 years. I can find no copy of this edition in WorldCat and that is rather strange. Can anyone find other copies of this book? Am I missing something? Any help is appreciated. Yours, John Patrick . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 21 12:43:46 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:43:46 -0500 Subject: Grant's new words in NYT In-Reply-To: <49D00D64-69D9-4F1D-8EE4-796152269343@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 07:27:37AM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > >> Typically for this sort of thing, the first few responses are >> not auspicious. > > I specifically asked that we get some kind of exhortation to the > readers that the comments take a turn for the positive, but the > editors demurred. Wouldn't have made any difference; people would still use the space to complain about "hopefully", text-messaging lingo, and Those Kids Today. As you know :-( Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Sun Dec 21 13:14:27 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:14:27 -0500 Subject: All Words Pronounced - forvo.com Message-ID: This mail item was in Anu Garg's weekly AWAD issue: From: Forvo.com Team (info forvo.com) Subject: Forvo, the pronunciation guide, presentation My name is Israel, from a new pronunciation project called Forvo . What's about? We have created a database for word pronunciations, all the words in all the languages. That is our goal. In the near future we hope Forvo becomes a useful tool to learn languages and be a huge database of pronunciations. (Now we have 70000+ pronunciations in 80 languages in only 8 months). The recordings are 100% real human natives not text-to-voice applications. I have not investigated the site, but thought it would be interesting to this discussion list. Regards, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 21 14:28:04 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 06:28:04 -0800 Subject: snow- words Message-ID: my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 21 14:36:58 2008 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:36:58 -0500 Subject: snow- words In-Reply-To: <200812211428.mBLBlDdu006996@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Daughter Esther arriving [after a delay] from Chicago-Midway called it a snowpocalypse. -db On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: snow- words > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter > Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New > York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with > reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, > snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 16:37:58 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:37:58 -0500 Subject: snow- words Message-ID: 1] "typical winter day" (applicable anytime from late November through early April in Upstate NY) 2] "snow days rock!" (actually heard in the wild, via IM, from a first-year school teacher) 3] "where'm I gonna put it?" (usually not heard until at least mid January, same area) -- And slightly OT, an observation: In the process of hand-shoveling our driveway clear of maybe six inches of snow [yesterday], it occurred to me that the depth of snow is, to some degree, dependent on how one has to remove it. If the task is to be done by hand shovel, as I was doing, the depth might be, say, 10 inches. If a snow-blower is employed, it's perhaps 7, maybe 8, inches. If one is to pay a modest sum to a neighbor child to clear it, you'll accept that it was -- depending on the quality of the job and the rate charged -- anywhere from 5 to 12 inches. If you need to hire someone with a snow plow, you may say, to anyone foolish enough to listen, that it's only a dusting and should be left to melt on its own. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. arnold asked: >my little family (daughter Elizabeth, son-in-law Paul, granddaughter >Opal) got back recently from a vacation trip to the east (upstate New >York, NYC, Boston), escaping just ahead of the heavy snow, with >reports of terms used to describe the snow storms: snowtastrophe, >snowmageddon, snowpocalypse. any others? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 17:01:57 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:01:57 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been getting in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the guys, who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about what kind of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Dec 21 19:17:56 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:17:56 EST Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been > getting > in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the > guys, > who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record > (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about > what kind > of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. > dh > > Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. > Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 21:01:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:01:50 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. LH > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > >> An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been >> getting >> in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the >> guys, >> who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record >> (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about >> what kind >> of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. >> dh >> >> Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. >> Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > >************** >One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, >Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& >icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 21 21:43:07 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome Message-ID: A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, or so it seems to me. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 21 22:38:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:38:15 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome In-Reply-To: <3140B77B0C15102B0731009012@Seamus> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0500 12/21/08, Doug Harris wrote: >A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" >While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, >preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, >or so it seems to me. >dh > > Well, if condoms, or practicing safe sex more generally, can prevent AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome), parents can presumably prevent SIDS. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Dec 22 02:11:32 2008 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:11:32 -0500 Subject: CNN Suggests Parents Can Prevent a Syndrome In-Reply-To: <200812212143.mBLBlDQt009164@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >A CNN headline today: "How can parents prevent SIDS?" >While parents may be able to prevent an infant death, >preventing a syndrome would be a lofty goal indeed, >or so it seems to me. A syndrome is not a statistical entity comprising a large number of cases; it is a group of symptoms identified as a single condition and occurring in a given individual. As Cancerweb's online medical dictionary puts it (http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?syndrome), a syndrome is "A set of signs or a series of events occurring together that often point to a single disease or condition as the cause." So if one can prevent the common cold, which means not preventing the very existence of the entity called "the common cold" and its existence anywhere at any time, but rather preventing an individual from being affected by it, one can prevent SIDS, by which is meant preventing an individual occurrence of the syndrome. (Infant death is not always SIDS; there are many other causes of infant death. The diagnosis of SIDS means that the general details of the case match other cases of SIDS and no other cause has been identified -- it's a diagnosis of exclusion.) There are quite a few other syndromes out there. There's fetal alcohol syndrome, which pregnant women prevent by avoiding drinking. There's metabolic syndrome, which is a precursor to diabetes and can be avoided with lifestyle management. There's Down syndrome, which can't be prevented, just screened for. And on and on... Each syndrome is a condition, identified as a unitary phenomenon and affecting individuals, and prevention means preventing an individual from developing that syndrome. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Mon Dec 22 03:39:19 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:39:19 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: Well, I don't think it is a new quote....A quick google search finds this one from 2005 in USA Today on a story about wounded vets: Aug 10, 2005 ... He says he felt that "I'm useless to the world, because all I know how to do is shoot a rifle and run around in the woods. ... I am sure there are earlier ones. -----Original Message----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. LH > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > >> An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been >> getting >> in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of the >> guys, >> who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile record >> (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried about >> what kind >> of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he said. >> dh >> >> Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. >> Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET Mon Dec 22 03:40:08 2008 From: djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET (David Metevia) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:40:08 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: Test message ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 03:57:46 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:57:46 EST Subject: Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: Thanks for the explanation, but, well, the subject line suggests that it is being nominated for Scariest Quote of the Year. Is that the same contest or a different one? There are now at least a dozen "--OTY" "competitions" sloshing around. It is hard to tell the noise from the amusing trivia. In a message dated 12/21/08 4:02:08 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 2:17 PM -0500 12/21/08, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >And this is of linguistic importance HOW???? > > I think Doug H was nominating it as an entry in the QOTY competition. > > LH > > > > >In a message dated 12/21/08 12:01:58 PM, cats22 at STNY.RR.COM writes: > > > > > >>? An LA Times story today talks about some Army /Iraq vets who've been > >>? getting > >>? in trouble once back in "Wonderland," as they call civilian life. One of > the > >>? guys, > >>? who was given a 'waiver' and allowed into the army despite a juvenile > record > >>? (for killing, albeit accidentally, a childhood friend), was worried > about > >>? what kind > >>? of work he might be able to do: "All I know how to do is shoot," he > said. > >>? dh > >> > >>? Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. > >>? Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > >> > >>? ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>? The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > > >************** > >One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, > >Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& > >icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 04:02:15 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:02:15 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] Truly Scary Quote Message-ID: "--OTY" competition does not necessarily require that the "--" be new, or linguistically interesting, or even particularly memorable. Every bush-lipped truthiness may have its day, and indeed many do. In a message dated 12/21/08 10:39:35 PM, djmetevia at CHARTERMI.NET writes: > Well, I don't think it is a new quote....A quick google search finds > this one from 2005 in USA Today on a story about wounded vets: > > Aug 10, 2005 ... He says he felt that "I'm useless to the world, because > all I know how to do is shoot a rifle and run around in the woods. ... > > > I am sure there are earlier ones. > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 22 12:21:42 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:21:42 -0500 Subject: More on Alleged 1888 "Limerick" Occurrence Message-ID: The web site of the Limerick Special Interest Group addresses the 1888 dating of the _Book of Limericks_: The truth is that Little, Brown, a publisher of law books and other "respectable'' works, did not publish its first piece of fiction until 1896 and it is unlikely that it would have published Lear at all in 1888 (the year of Lear's death). It acquired in 1898 the general list of Roberts Brothers, which had published Nonsense Books in 1888, and Little, Brown, in all likelihood, included the Little, Brown title page with the newly obtained sections of the 1888 Nonsense Books in a subsequent printing. Since Little, Brown published A Book of Limericks copyrighted 1908, the publication of this edition would have been 1898-1908, probably closer to the mid point. This edition contains sections from Lear's books entitled "A Book of Nonsense," "One Hundred Nonsense Pictures and Rhymes," "Nonsense Songs," and "Laughable Lyrics." Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 22 14:02:34 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:02:34 -0500 Subject: Truly Scary Quote In-Reply-To: <200812220357.mBLBlDe6006993@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's almost enough to start an "--OTY of the Year" competition. Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 10:57 PM, wrote: > There are now at least a dozen "--OTY" "competitions" sloshing around. It > is > hard to tell the noise from the amusing trivia. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:09:57 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:09:57 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMSu018412@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > ... 2. [Leafing through the animal picture book] -- Sharks eat > fish, like > mackerel. -- Yeah! it's the *macaroni fish*. -- Macaroni fish? -- Yes, > if you slice it and fry it, you get macaroni and cheese. delightful. a fair number of "macaroni fish" hits, but only a very few that seem to refer to some kind of fish. most are for dishes (like "macaroni fish pie") that have both macaroni and fish as ingredients. a few for a post-WW2 British "austerity dish", the nature of which i can't quite determine, though i'd guess it was macaroni somehow treated as mock fish. plus a few for "macaroni fish" as a crafts project -- pieces of dry pasta glued together to make a fish. but then there are a few sites (from evident non-native speakers) with things like the following: KITP - Egypt [EG] Want to buy Fish, Butter Dear Sir We are a company deals in field of food stuff and we would like to import the following items: 1- Haring fish. Origin: Netherlands - Norway Specifications: 3-5 fishes / 1 kgm. 2- Mackerel fish. 3- Macaroni fish. 4- Natural butter. Origin: Australia - New Zealand - Netherlands Specifications: Not salted Please send your price and specifications. Best regards, Adel El Mohandes ..... clearly "macaroni fish" here is not mackerel, since "mackerel fish" is also on this (short) list. so it's puzzling. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 16:57:51 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:57:51 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMSu018412@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > -- Do > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard variant, not an error). Too bigger of a bag and you end up packing too much stuff into it and killing your shoulders and back by the end of the day! [note "of" variant of exceptional degree marking] www.flickr.com/groups/timbuk2/discuss/72157604100642703/ ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 But in this example, it doesn't occurs, i can't draw a polygon that is too bigger than its rectangle. When i try, this message (above) appears. wikimapia.org/forum/?t=2537 the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing each ... www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. html an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html even to the point of allowing a preceding determiner: Is 15 years a too bigger age difference?? I am 22 he is 37? answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080326042005AAkFuhS arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:11:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:11:12 -0800 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812221657.mBMBmaGk019779@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2008, at 8:57 AM, i wrote about "too bigger". for a parallel case, see: AZ, 9/18/06: How safer is America today?: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003593.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 22 17:18:12 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:18:12 -0800 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? In-Reply-To: <200812200403.mBJJGY8q029180@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google > hits ... > > ... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > instrument no longer obviously resembles one? but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 22 18:15:10 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:15:10 +0000 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? Message-ID: Mishearing AND especially misremembering. ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: Re: [ADS-L] cuff/cup eggcorns? Sent: Dec 22, 2008 12:18 PM On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google > hits ... > > ... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > instrument no longer obviously resembles one? but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Mon Dec 22 18:51:37 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns Message-ID: Certainly not Morely. dh How safer is America today? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 22 19:08:35 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:08:35 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? In-Reply-To: <69BE2F26-D13A-444B-899C-931330AD8BAD@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Herb Stahlke >>Subject: cuff/cup eggcorns? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff." Google >>hits ... >> >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? > >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. > >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. > But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" in this use. I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than frequent words like "cup". The OED, for example, has many more entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of some sport. "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists or ankles with a lock. Granted, the last of these may be more transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup". The general correlation is from Zipf: more frequent words tend to be more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, than less frequent ones. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 22 21:27:18 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:27:18 -0500 Subject: No snail mail in colonial Maine Message-ID: A Google Books bit from "A History of the Towns of Bristol and Bremen in the State of Maine ...", by John Johnston - Bristol (Me.) - 1873: Another small indentation, a mile or more north of Round pond, constitutes Muscongus harbor, so called, into which a email stream empties from Muscongus ... (The "a email" in my browser display is transformed into "? email" when I "Paste Special Unformatted Text" into Eudora.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 00:45:58 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:45:58 -0800 Subject: antedating: "staging area" Message-ID: OED has this important military term only from 1945. ? 1918 (July 27) in? _Records of the World War: Field Orders 1918,?5th Division_ (Washington, D.C.: G.P.O., 1921) 35: In principle, the elements will only remain at the staging area one day or less depending on the hour of their arrival. ? 1919 _Official History of the 82nd Division, American Expeditionary Forces_??(Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill) 257:?Upon the relief of the Division in the Argonne, the Military Police force was divided into three sections. One went ahead to the staging area and assisted the placing of units when they arrived. ? 1921 Hugh Stewart _The New Zealand Division, 1916-1919_ (Auckland: Whitcombe and Tombs) 252: The 4th Brigade reached a staging area north of Hazebrouck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 23 00:57:45 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:57:45 -0800 Subject: my new blog Message-ID: i'm now blogging on linguistic matters (and, occasionally, on some other things) at http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com as with Language Log, some ADS-L postings will be repackaged on my blog. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 23 01:04:02 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:04:02 -0800 Subject: cuff/cup Message-ID: i realize now that such reshapings (in favor of a more frequent and familiar item, even when that doesn't improve the semantics) came up before on Language Log, under the heading "demi-eggcorns": AZ, 10/15/07: Cow-towing to Celsius: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005026.html AZ, 2/16/08: For you, broccoli rabbi, but NO BIKES: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005392.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:55:00 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:55:00 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812221657.mBMBmaGi019779@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > > -- Do > > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! > > this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so > bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard > variant, not an error). > > ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is > too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... > bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 > This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much > bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: > > If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them > "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing > each ... > www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. > html > > an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what > looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): > > It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. > www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html > Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 02:56:06 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:56:06 -0500 Subject: resend not quite eggcorns Message-ID: (sorry! forgot to switch off the "rich text") On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: > > > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. > > -- Do > > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! > > this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so > bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard > variant, not an error). > > ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is > too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... > bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > > the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much > bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: > > If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them > "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing > each ... > www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. > html > > an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what > looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): > > It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. > www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 05:07:37 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800 Subject: side-straddle hop Message-ID: Incredibly not in OED. ? 1919 _Twelfth U.S. Infantry, 1798-1919_ (?N.Y.: Knickerbocker Press)?? 325: "K" Company claims to be the best in the execution of "side-straddle hop."? ? 1919 [George W. Small, ed.] _Story of the Forty-Seventh: Being?the History of a Regiment of Heavy Artillery_ ?(Baltimore: pvtly. ptd.) 75: (Colonel) Hobbs ventured out on deck just as the ship was doing the "side-straddle-hop." ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 08:27:52 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:27:52 EST Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering Message-ID: Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that misremembering is at least as important as mishearing. One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the first time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it actively, one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropriate. Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency sense that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one is likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semantics are too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it as a unified term ("signified" = "referent") without parsing it much at all. These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices. There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," and people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downtown and which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpful here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their name to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically about the same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likely to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misremember "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spanish "culo"). In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > > > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender:? ? ?? American Dialect Society > >>Poster:? ? ?? Herb Stahlke > >>Subject:? ? ? cuff/cup eggcorns? > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood > >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."? Google > >>hits ... > >> > >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?? Is the use of "cuff" as a strip > >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser > >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP > >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? > > > >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. > > > >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. > > > But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" > in this use.? I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes > more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words > like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than > frequent words like "cup".? The OED, for example, has many more > entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of > which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that > may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the > question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood > pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic > relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of > some sport.? "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and > is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of > one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists > or ankles with a lock.? Granted, the last of these may be more > transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), > and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less > likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".? The > general correlation is from Zipf:? more frequent words tend to be > more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, > than less frequent ones. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 14:22:29 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:22:29 -0500 Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering In-Reply-To: <200812230828.mBN2t6Yx022443@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I searched a couple other expressions with "cuff", "off the cuff" and "like a dog on the cuff." "Off the cup" gets 103,000 hits, but the only one even remotely close to "off the cuff" is a Starbucks pun in a Seattle Times article: A local spokeswoman suggested that Starbucks' off-the-cup opinions leaned left, and that if the company wants righties to buy lattes, it should put conservative opinions on cups. There are all of seven hits for "dog on the cup," none of which are even close in meaning to the expression with "cuff." Herb On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:27 AM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that=20 > misremembering is at least as important as mishearing.=20 > > One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the firs= > t=20 > time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a=20 > signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some= > =20 > kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it activel= > y,=20 > one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropria= > te.=20 > Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors=20 > ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and=20 > importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency= > sense=20 > that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one= > is=20 > likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure=20 > cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semanti= > cs are=20 > too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect=20 > most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it a= > s a=20 > unified term ("signified" =3D "referent") without parsing it much at all. > > These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices.=20 > There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," an= > d=20 > people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic=20 > material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downto= > wn and=20 > which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpfu= > l=20 > here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their=20= > name=20 > to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less=20 > trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically abo= > ut the=20 > same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. > > One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likel= > y=20 > to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by= > =20 > only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone=20 > would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue=20 > (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misre= > member=20 > "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spani= > sh=20 > "culo"). > > In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >> > >> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >>Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 American Dialect Society >> >>Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Herb Stahlke >> >>Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 cuff/cup eggcorns? >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >> >> >> >>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >> >>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."=A0 Google >> >>hits ... >> >> >> >>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?=A0 Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >> >>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >> >>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >> >>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? >> > >> >but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. >> > >> >this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. >> > >> But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" >> in this use.=A0 I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes >> more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words >> like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than >> frequent words like "cup".=A0 The OED, for example, has many more >> entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of >> which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that >> may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the >> question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood >> pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic >> relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of >> some sport.=A0 "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and >> is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of >> one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists >> or ankles with a lock.=A0 Granted, the last of these may be more >> transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), >> and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less >> likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".=A0 The >> general correlation is from Zipf:=A0 more frequent words tend to be >> more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, >> than less frequent ones. >>=20 >> LH >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>=20 >>=20 > > > > > ************** > One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,=20 > Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp& > icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolcom00000025) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 14:25:18 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:25:18 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: BE "distributive _be_" Message-ID: Thirty-ish, black female speaker: Whenever she start arguing, it usually _be's_ at her house. "Be's," though perceived as stereotypical, is actually rare enough to be worthy of note. Among midle-class BE speakers, "be's" is used in hyperblackenized joking speech, e.g., "Thangs be's that way." The real aphorism is, "Thangs be that way." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 23 16:57:47 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:57:47 -0800 Subject: Festivus Message-ID: It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a?Deeply Satisfying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage! ? And now to the carols. ? JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 17:05:14 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:05:14 +0000 Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering In-Reply-To: <200812231422.mBNBlxOS014253@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hmm. Cuff links for Chrismas? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: cuff/cup and misremembering > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I searched a couple other expressions with "cuff", "off the cuff" and > "like a dog on the cuff." "Off the cup" gets 103,000 hits, but the > only one even remotely close to "off the cuff" is a Starbucks pun in a > Seattle Times article: > > A local spokeswoman suggested that Starbucks' off-the-cup opinions > leaned left, and that if the company wants righties to buy lattes, it > should put conservative opinions on cups. > > There are all of seven hits for "dog on the cup," none of which are > even close in meaning to the expression with "cuff." > > Herb > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:27 AM, wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >> Subject: cuff/cup and misremembering >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Larry's point is really helpful, and again it suggests (to me) that=20 >> misremembering is at least as important as mishearing.=20 >> >> One files a new compound (e.g., 'blood-pressure cuff') in the brain the firs= >> t=20 >> time one hears it as the linking (borrowing some semiotic terminology) of a=20 >> signifier (phonological shape) with a "referent" (the thing itself) AND some= >> =20 >> kind of "signified" (semantic parsings of the compound); to reuse it activel= >> y,=20 >> one summons up the "signfier" with the "signified" that seems most appropria= >> te.=20 >> Appropriateness is based on a number of things, including semantic factors=20 >> ('cuff' is more like what one has in a bloodpressure cuff than 'cup') and=20 >> importance of the word ('cup' is more important than 'cuff' in the frequency= >> sense=20 >> that Larry is talking about, and probably other senses as well). Thus no one= >> is=20 >> likely to recall that it is a "blood-pressure cuss" or a "blood-pressure=20 >> cough" (phonologically about the same distance as "cup") because the semanti= >> cs are=20 >> too remote--even if one has not seen the device in question. And I suspect=20 >> most people get it right the first time, perhaps because they just file it a= >> s a=20 >> unified term ("signified" =3D "referent") without parsing it much at all. >> >> These issues come up a lot in trademark litigation and branding choices.=20 >> There used to be two grocery stores in Durham, "Fowler's" and "Foster's," an= >> d=20 >> people were constantly confusing them because there was almost no semantic=20 >> material to create a "signified" to help one remember which store was downto= >> wn and=20 >> which one was out on the Boulevard. Morphological parsing is just not helpfu= >> l=20 >> here in the way that Larry suggests. However, if Foster's had changed their=20= >> name=20 >> to "Fooler's" or "Farter's," people would probably have had a lot less=20 >> trouble remembering which was which, even though they are phonologically abo= >> ut the=20 >> same or even closer to "Fowler's" than "Foster's" is. >> >> One other issue is mere misspeaking. True slips of the tongue are more likel= >> y=20 >> to happen when the alternatives in question are minimal pairs that differ by= >> =20 >> only one distinctive feature, as with cuff/cup. It is unlikely that anyone=20 >> would be likely to say "blood-pressure cull," even as a slip of the tongue=20 >> (though I suppose someone with a really weird sense of etymology might misre= >> member=20 >> "cuff" as "cul" on the basis of a knowledge of the French "cul" or the Spani= >> sh=20 >> "culo"). >> >> In a message dated 12/22/08 2:09:14 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >> >>> At 10:32 AM -0800 12/22/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>>>On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:03 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >>>> >>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>>Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 American Dialect Society >>>>>Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Herb Stahlke >>>>>Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 cuff/cup eggcorns? >>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ----- >>>>> >>>>>I've frequently heard the expressions "rotator cup" and "blood >>>>>pressure cup" for "rotator cuff" and "blood pressure cuff."=A0 Google >>>>>hits ... >>>>> >>>>>... why would "cup" replace "cuff"?=A0 Is the use of "cuff" as a strip >>>>>or fold encircling the wrist or ankle at the end of a sleeve/trouser >>>>>leg falling out of common use so that the resemblence of the BP >>>>>instrument no longer obviously resembles one? >>>> >>>>but "cup" wouldn't make more sense. >>>> >>>>this is likely to originate from a mishearing, i'd guess. >>>> >>> But the mishearing might itself be prompted by the opacity of "cuff" >>> in this use.=A0 I don't think it's a question of whether "cup" makes >>> more sense here, but that specialized and relatively infrequent words >>> like "cuff" are less likely to have extended opaque uses/senses than >>> frequent words like "cup".=A0 The OED, for example, has many more >>> entries for senses and subsenses of "cup" than for "cuff", many of >>> which do not relate to a drinking vessel; some relate to shapes that >>> may only loosely involve some sort of concavity, not out of the >>> question to be relevant in the case of rotator cuffs and blood >>> pressure cuffs, and some bear only a metaphorical or metonymic >>> relation, as in "competing for the cup", i.e. the championship of >>> some sport.=A0 "Cuff", on the other hand, has few separate senses, and >>> is almost always (when unspecified) used for the thingy at the end of >>> one's sleeve or trousers or the thingy that attaches to one's wrists >>> or ankles with a lock.=A0 Granted, the last of these may be more >>> transparently related to b-p cuffs (although not to rotator cuffs), >>> and indeed I'd wager that patients who are cops or into BDSM are less >>> likely to hear "blood-pressure cuff" as "blood-pressure cup".=A0 The >>> general correlation is from Zipf:=A0 more frequent words tend to be >>> more versatile, i.e. have more--and more opaquely related--senses, >>> than less frequent ones. >>>=20 >>> LH >>>=20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>=20 >>>=20 >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,=20 >> Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=3Dnew-dp& >> icid=3Daolcom40vanity&ncid=3Demlcntaolcom00000025) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 18:09:15 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:09:15 -0600 Subject: Festivus In-Reply-To: <200812231657.mBNBvQe5006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've already pulled the aluminum pole from the crawl space. Scot On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Festivus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a=A0Deeply > Satisf= > ying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage! > =A0 > And now to the carols. > =A0 > JL=0A=0A=0A > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:05:39 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:05:39 EST Subject: Festivus Message-ID: Festivirus seems more appropriate for this time of year. In a message dated 12/23/08 11:58:03 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > It's Festivus again! Here's wishing everyone on this list a?Deeply > Satisfying Festivus and The Best New Year You Can Pull from the Wreckage! > ? > And now to the carols. > ? > JL > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 19:36:57 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:36:57 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812230255.mBN2t6SN022443@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's certainly a real possibility, Mark, seem like to me. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: not quite eggcorns > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Victor wrote: >> >> > ... 1. I don't want to wear this hat because it's too big for me. >> > -- Do >> > you want to wear my hat? -- No, it's *too-bigger*! >> >> this is from a kid, but "too bigger" 'too much bigger' (and "so >> bigger", "that bigger", etc.) are moderately common (as a non-standard >> variant, not an error). >> >> ..too big is terrible... hehe... yes, C CUP is enough ...above D is >> too bigger... A/B should be ignored. ... >> bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=594913&extra=&page=40 >> > > This may be a joking comparative, (too big) + er, like the following: > > >> the kid example has a somewhat different semantics for "too much >> bigger" -- something like 'even more too big'. as in this example: >> >> If GM and Chrsyler are too big to fail, wouldn't merging make them >> "too bigger to fail" like all of these banks that are swallowing >> each ... >> www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/gm-making-case-that-its-t_n_138493. >> html >> >> an extra wrinkle is that "too bigger" (etc.) sometimes occur with what >> looks like ordinary degree modification (without the "a(n)"): >> >> It's not too bigger deal, I'm sure this list is mirrored somewhere. >> www.nabble.com/Can't-import-keys-on-OSX-td19287064.html >> > > Might this not be a reanalysis of "it's not too big a deal"? (Instead of > going to "not too big of a deal", as we have discussed a lot lately.) > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Dec 23 23:07:08 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:07:08 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200811111723.mABBp42R007514@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". Interesting. Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, is there no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com is infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. But in m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the phonetics show an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slafaive at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 03:19:07 2008 From: slafaive at GMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:19:07 -0600 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812232307.mBNBvQ4B006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] for [k] by some writers. Scot On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: opportYOUnity > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". Interesting. > > Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, is there > no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com is > infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. But in > m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the phonetics show > an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. > > I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech > impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 03:27:34 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:27:34 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240319.mBNL6dgT014251@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the same: klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to figure out how to read. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > >> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech > impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > > Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] > for [k] > by some writers. > > Scot > > > > On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >> Interesting. >> >> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >> is there >> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >> is >> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >> But in >> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >> phonetics show >> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >> >> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 24 03:59:55 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:59:55 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <1A345B97-BFCD-4C78-9161-DB1AE253C6AA@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like "clause". Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" rhyme with?) Joel At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the same: >klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >figure out how to read. BB > >On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: > >> >>>I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >>Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>for [k] >>by some writers. >> >>Scot >> >> >> >>On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> >>>A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>Interesting. >>> >>>Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>is there >>>no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>is >>>infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>But in >>>m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>phonetics show >>>an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>> >>>I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 04:05:30 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:05:30 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240400.mBNBvQpW014675@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" > ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and > "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like > "clause". > > Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" > rhyme with?) > > Joel > > At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >> same: >> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >> figure out how to read. BB >> >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >> >>> >>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>> speech >>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>> for [k] >>> by some writers. >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>> is there >>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>> is >>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>> But in >>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>> phonetics show >>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>> >>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 04:38:15 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:38:15 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240405.mBNBvQ9t006683@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but > all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB If I'm not mistaken, they're also known to "hear" differences that they do not produce. For example, I have the same vowel in "male" and "man", but one is thought of as a long A sound, and the other a short A sound. This notion invalidates a lot of dialect survey work that was done by asking people questions on paper (or over the internet), like "do you say 'Mary', 'merry', and 'marry' the same way?" Not that many people don't say them differently, but many people may say them the same way but think they say them differently because they are affected by the spelling (or other factors). Randy (in Cincinnati, OH, over the holidays) > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >> "clause". >> >> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >> rhyme with?) >> >> Joel >> >> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>> same: >>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>> figure out how to read. BB >>> >>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>> speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>> for [k] >>>> by some writers. >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>> is there >>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>>> is >>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>> But in >>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>> phonetics show >>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 12:43:59 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:43:59 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812240438.mBNL6djn014251@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I too pronounce "male" or "mail" with the vowel in "man" so it sounds like "mal". I think it's more prevalent than one would think. It's hard to say the long a as in "may" followed by an "l". In transitioning I tend to put a ~ool or ~yool (short oo as in wool) in there. mayool. In m-w.com the speakers say "Santa Claus" and "flaw" with the "awe" sound. But the speakers say "claws" "clause" "awe" "law""laud" "applaud" all with the "ah" vowel sound yet they have the same phonetic symbol. This is not right in terms of the majority USA accent, which is approximately 60% awe and 40% ah for caught being said as cot (assuming this generalizes). M-w.com is a favorite of mine, but this is a error to me. In the pronunciation guide the sample word for this sound is "law". But "law" is pronounced incorrectly as "lah" ~laa. I wish they would straighten this out. In all my years I've never heard Santa Claus said as ~Klaaz (ah vowel) before. Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect pronunciation. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:38:15 -0500 > From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but >> all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB > > If I'm not mistaken, they're also known to "hear" differences that > they do not produce. For example, I have the same vowel in "male" and > "man", but one is thought of as a long A sound, and the other a short > A sound. This notion invalidates a lot of dialect survey work that > was done by asking people questions on paper (or over the internet), > like "do you say 'Mary', 'merry', and 'marry' the same way?" Not that > many people don't say them differently, but many people may say them > the same way but think they say them differently because they are > affected by the spelling (or other factors). > > Randy > (in Cincinnati, OH, over the holidays) > >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >>> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >>> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >>> "clause". >>> >>> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >>> rhyme with?) >>> >>> Joel >>> >>> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>>> same: >>>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>>> figure out how to read. BB >>>> >>>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>>> speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>>> >>>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>>> for [k] >>>>> by some writers. >>>>> >>>>> Scot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>>> Interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>>> is there >>>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>>>> is >>>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>>> But in >>>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>>> phonetics show >>>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Jilin City, China > My Manchu studies blog: > http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Dec 24 14:26:02 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:26:02 -0500 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12/24/2008 07:43 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect >pronunciation. Isn't it the Pennsylvania Dutch American dialect pronunciation? :-) (I was joshing when I suggested it.) But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill", and differently from "mal". (Of course, in the 18th century it was "malefeasance", although I don't know how that was pronounced.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 24 15:30:57 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:30:57 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity Message-ID: Well, literally this would only be true of, say, a high-pitched fart that only a dog could hear. Maybe what BB meant to say is that speakers vary unknowingly between sounds (such as [a] and "open o") without realizing it. In the language of linguistics, they are allophones in free variation (a concept that Tom Zurinskas apparently does not understand despite years of exposure on ads-l, leading him to insult gratuitouslyt people who have a different phonemic system from his own). ------Original Message------ From: Benjamin Barrett Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: Re: [ADS-L] opportYOUnity Sent: Dec 23, 2008 11:05 PM Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" > ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and > "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like > "clause". > > Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" > rhyme with?) > > Joel > > At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >> same: >> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >> figure out how to read. BB >> >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >> >>> >>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>> speech >>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>> for [k] >>> by some writers. >>> >>> Scot >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>> Interesting. >>>> >>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>> is there >>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m-w.com >>>> is >>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>> But in >>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>> phonetics show >>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>> >>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Dec 24 16:20:38 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:20:38 -0500 Subject: Early 2008 WOTY Nominations Posted Message-ID: Early nominations for the American Dialect Society's 2008 word of the year vote are now available, including three batches from society members who specialize in following language trends, and a list of the most-nominated terms from the general public in the US and Canada. http://www.americandialect.org/woty2008/ All nominations will be considered for the American Dialect Society's 19th annual word-of-the-year (WOTY) vote, the longest-running vote of its kind in the Anglophone world and the WOTY event up to which all others lead. It will be held in San Francisco on Friday, January 9, 2009, and is open at no cost to members of the press and public. Detailed information on where and when the final vote will be held is here: http://www.americandialect.org/2009/ Judging by the nomination trends, two major events preoccupied North America over the last 12 months and dominated its discourse. An impressive 51% of the nominations were related to the American presidential election, including 13.5% that were plays on Barack Obama's name, 2.7%% that were related to "Joe" (as in "Joe the Plumber" or "Joe Sixpack"), and 2.2% that were related to the name of Sarah Palin. Coming in a distant second were the 19% of the nominations related to the ongoing financial crisis. The top individual nominations from the public so far, in order of popularity: 1. "change" 11.7% 2. "bailout" 9% 3. "maverick" 4% 4. "to vet; vetting" 3.6% 5. "Obama-nation"/"Obomination"/"Obamination" treated as one item 2.7% 6. (tie) "game-changer," "hope," and "Obamamania" each with 2.2% 7. (tie) "Obamanos" and "you betcha," each with 1.8% 8. (tie) "Joe Six-Pack" and "meh," each with 1.3% More nominations, with definitions and supporting information, are available from these society members: Nominations from Grant Barrett, chair of the American Dialect Society's New Words Committee and its vice president of communications and technology; co-host of the nationwide public radio show "A Way with Words"; and editor of the "Double-Tongued Dictionary." http://americandialect.org/Barrett-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Nominations from Wayne Glowka, Dean of the School of Arts and Humanities at Reinhardt College in Waleska, Georgia, and former editor of the "Among the New Words" column of the society's journal American Speech. http://americandialect.org/Glowka-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Nominations from Ben Zimmer, executive producer of the Visual Thesaurus, and member of the Executive Council of the American Dialect Society. http://americandialect.org/Zimmer-2008-WOTY-Nominations.pdf Media contact information for each nominator is included in the files above. Nominations from the public can still be sent to . The best "word of the year" candidates will be: --new or newly popular in 2008 --widely or prominently used in 2008 --indicative or reflective of the national discourse Multi-word compounds or phrases that act as single lexical items are welcomed, as well. Sub-categories for "word of the year" include most useful, most creative, most unnecessary, most outrageous, most euphemistic, most likely to succeed, and least likely to succeed. The vote is informed by the members' expertise in the study of words, but it is far from a solemn occasion. Members in the 119-year-old academic organization include linguists, lexicographers, etymologists, grammarians, historians, researchers, writers, authors, editors, professors, university students, and independent scholars. In conducting the vote, they act in fun and do not pretend to be officially inducting words into the English language. Instead, they are highlighting that language change is normal, ongoing, and entertaining. Previous winners can be found here: http://www.americandialect.org/woty/ The American Dialect Society is open to all persons worldwide who have an interest in language. Membership includes four annual issues of the society's academic journal, one complete scholarly work per year from the "Publication of the American Dialect Society" series, and a subscription to its email newsletter. There is a discounted membership rate for students at any academic level, who are especially encouraged to join. More information about membership: http://www.dukeupress.edu/ads/ ... Grant Barrett http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Wed Dec 24 16:38:24 2008 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:38:24 -0800 Subject: OED update Message-ID: Here's a new column of me having fun with the OED updates--a column I have longed to write for years: http://www.good.is/?p=14327 Happy Festivus, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Dec 24 16:44:32 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:44:32 -0500 Subject: side-straddle hop Message-ID: Not since my high-school-football-playing days in the early 1960s have I heard or thought about that term! Actually, I didn't THINK ABOUT it then--but I'm pretty sure I analyzed the immediate constituents as "side" + "straddle hop"; so I would have puncuated the term as "side straddle-hop." But I'm sure Jonathan is right. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:07:37 -0800 >From: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: side-straddle hop > > >Incredibly not in OED. 1919 _Twelfth U.S. Infantry, 1798-1919_ (=A0N.Y.: Knickerbocker Press)=A0= >=A0 325: "K" Company claims to be the best in the execution of "side-stradd= >le hop."=A0 >=A0 >1919 [George W. Small, ed.] _Story of the Forty-Seventh: Being=A0the Histor= >y of a Regiment of Heavy Artillery_ =A0(Baltimore: pvtly. ptd.) 75: (Colone= >l) Hobbs ventured out on deck just as the ship was doing the "side-straddle= >-hop."=20 >=A0 >JL=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 24 17:30:00 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:30:00 -0800 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812241531.mBOBnE7d009043@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My comment was that, for example, you can have a native speaker who cannot hear differences in the vowel sounds of marry, merry and Mary, even though they do themselves pronounce them differently. (I once had a friend spend five minutes with me, at the end of which, I was convinced that I could hear a difference in one of these three. I don't know if I still believe it or not as the effect of being able to distinguish one was temporary.) So it's possible that I have two or three pronunciations for Claus/ clause/claws even though they sound identical to my ears. And seriousness aside, doing this is the only way we're going to get English to a pentavocalic system such that we can get our letters to match up to our speech. BB On Dec 24, 2008, at 7:30 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Well, literally this would only be true of, say, a high-pitched fart > that only a dog could hear. > > Maybe what BB meant to say is that speakers vary unknowingly between > sounds (such as [a] and "open o") without realizing it. In the > language of linguistics, they are allophones in free variation (a > concept that Tom Zurinskas apparently does not understand despite > years of exposure on ads-l, leading him to insult gratuitouslyt > people who have a different phonemic system from his own). > ------Original Message------ > From: Benjamin Barrett > Sender: ADS-L > To: ADS-L > ReplyTo: ADS-L > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] opportYOUnity > Sent: Dec 23, 2008 11:05 PM > > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear, but > all three (clause included) sound identical to me. BB > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Disregarding that the correct pronunciation of "Claus" is 'klows" >> ("ow" as in "ouch", and "s" not "z"), I think I pronounce "Claus" and >> "claws" differently -- more "w" in "claws". For me, "Claus" is like >> "clause". >> >> Or am I missing the fact that Ben is joshing? (What does "klahz" >> rhyme with?) >> >> Joel >> >> At 12/23/2008 10:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> But the *correct* pronunciation of Claus and claws is indeed the >>> same: >>> klahz; just ask anyone in my family. Those who would clutter the >>> English language by adding superfluous vowels are truly demonic >>> because doing so will lead to children being completely unable to >>> figure out how to read. BB >>> >>> On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:19 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to *thing* the "awe-droppers" have some kind of >>>>> speech >>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>>> >>>> Much like the language impairment involved in the dropping of [ng] >>>> for [k] >>>> by some writers. >>>> >>>> Scot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/23/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A Bank of America commercial puts "you" in "opportYOUnity". >>>>> Interesting. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I heard today somewhere on TV - Santa Clahz (~klaaz). Yes, >>>>> is there >>>>> no respect by these infernal "awe-droppers". Unfortunately m- >>>>> w.com >>>>> is >>>>> infected. The word "Claus" should be spoken the same as claws. >>>>> But in >>>>> m-w.com "claws" ~klauz spoken clahs ~klaaz even though the >>>>> phonetics show >>>>> an o with a dot over it (~au in truespel) which should be ~Klauz. >>>>> >>>>> I'm beginning to thing the "awe-droppers" have some kind of speech >>>>> impediment to mispronounce Santa Claus. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 24 19:01:51 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:01:51 +0000 Subject: opportYOUnity In-Reply-To: <200812241426.mBOBnElq009046@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something > like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill If "ull" is the vowel sound as in "bull" or "wool" it's ~ool in truespel phonetics where ~oo foespels the "short oo" sound. It occurs more often then most realize. For instance "l" endings like "triple" ~tripool, "trouble" ~trubool. It's foespeld by schwa usually. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:26:02 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: opportYOUnity > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/24/2008 07:43 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>Nor ~Klous as well, but I assume that's not an American dialect >>pronunciation. > > Isn't it the Pennsylvania Dutch American dialect > pronunciation? :-) (I was joshing when I suggested it.) > > But I believe I pronounce "male" and "mail" identically, something > like a shortened form of "may-ull" or "may-ill", and differently from > "mal". (Of course, in the 18th century it was "malefeasance", > although I don't know how that was pronounced.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 04:19:29 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:19:29 -0800 Subject: distinguishing Message-ID: from Henry Fountain's Observatory feature in the NYT Science Times 12/23, "African Fish Need A Little Electricity For Love to Bloom": Females of the species Campylomormyrus compressirostris [i am not making this up], a fish that produces a weak electrical discharge from an organ near its tail, can distinguish males of their own species by their electrical signature, scientists at the University of Potsdam in Germany report in Biology Letters. ..... sometimes "distinguish X" works just fine without an expression of the comparison class ("from Y"), but sometimes the reader or hearer has to work things out. in this case, the first reading i got was 'distinguish [some] males of their own species from other males of their own species', which would certainly be a useful ability for female fish to have. but the piece goes on: The females' ability may effectively serve as a reproductive barrier that is important in speciation, the divergence of new species from existing ones. ..... ah! the intended reading was 'distinguish [all] males of their own species from [all] males of other species'. writing is hard; let's go shopping! arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 04:41:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:41:53 -0500 Subject: A "twofer" Message-ID: I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 05:52:49 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:52:49 -0500 Subject: not quite eggcorns In-Reply-To: <200812200410.mBJBrMEW029324@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have one more kid-speak expression to add to the list. Here's the full context that builds up to it. The context is more for entertainment, the specific word (highlighted) is for analysis. While trying (and then consuming) a particular kind of exotic, earthy-crunchy (but no granola!) yogurt, the same kid (4y4m) said, "It tastes like fashion lady perfume. It's, like, *sweet-and-soury* and stuff..." I don't recall exactly what followed, but, I am sure, the observation was just as deep. I don't recall the actual flavor, but another flavor from the same batch included lavender, so it's easy to see how this could lead to the above observation. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 06:00:14 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:00:14 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/25/2008 12:03:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear Since it's the Day itself, I have to say: Merry Christmas to one and all! Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've observed: - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha - a Long Island native adds an R to the end of her own name, Freyda, so at times she calls herself Freyder. Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways they say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. Are you saying they really can't hear the differences? Rosemarie What flies and goes "OH-OH-OH!"? Santa flying backwards! **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 07:08:28 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:08:28 -0800 Subject: bare pasts Message-ID: on PST/PSP "text", "pit", etc., with a bow to ADS-L: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/whats-the-past-tense-of-the-verb-text/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 25 08:59:05 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:59:05 -0800 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: <200812250559.mBOBnEJQ009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know about those examples. It seems they might be using variations within their own language/dialect, so they really are using the same pronunciations. In any case, I'm pretty sure that it's an established fact that some speakers make differentiations they cannot hear themselves. BB On Dec 24, 2008, at 10:00 PM, Your Name wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2008 12:03:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: > > > Native speakers are known to produce differences they cannot hear > > > > Since it's the Day itself, I have to say: Merry Christmas to one > and all! > > Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've > observed: > - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha > - a Long Island native adds an R to the end of her own name, Freyda, > so at > times she calls herself Freyder. > > Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways > they > say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. > Are you > saying they really can't hear the differences? > > Rosemarie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 25 16:39:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:39:41 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: a very small point, about the following quote from a Christmas shopper interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition this morning (12/25/08): "With the market and everything being the way that it is ..." i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero relative: "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits {"being the way it is"} 845 hits so the zero variant has it over the "that" variant by a bit more than 3 to 1, though the numbers for the "that" variant aren't shabby. MWDEU under "contact clauses": "Since contact clauses did not exist in Latin, the 18th-century grammarians looked at them askance. Lindley Murray 1795 termed the construction ?omitting the relative? and stated that ?in all writings of a serious and dignified kind, it ought to be omitted.? Jespersen quotes Samuel Johnson as calling the omission of the relative pronoun ?a colloquial barbarism? (and also notes that examples can be found in Johnson?s letters)." in contrast, more modern handbooks sometimes suggest that relativizer "that" should be omitted where possible (Omit Needless Words). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 17:33:15 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:33:15 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812251639.mBPCT69R022503@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than without "that" is to be expected. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > a very small point, about the following quote from a Christmas shopper > interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition this morning (12/25/08): > > "With the market and everything being the way that it is ..." > > i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero > relative: > > "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." > > a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: > > {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits > {"being the way it is"} 845 hits > > so the zero variant has it over the "that" variant by a bit more than > 3 to 1, though the numbers for the "that" variant aren't shabby. > > MWDEU under "contact clauses": "Since contact clauses did not exist in > Latin, the 18th-century grammarians looked at them askance. Lindley > Murray 1795 termed the construction "omitting the relative" and stated > that "in all writings of a serious and dignified kind, it ought to be > omitted." Jespersen quotes Samuel Johnson as calling the omission of > the relative pronoun "a colloquial barbarism" (and also notes that > examples can be found in Johnson's letters)." > > in contrast, more modern handbooks sometimes suggest that relativizer > "that" should be omitted where possible (Omit Needless Words). > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Thu Dec 25 20:11:28 2008 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:11:28 EST Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 2008 to 22 Dec 2008 (#2008-357) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/23/2008 12:03:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU writes: but then there are a few sites (from evident non-native speakers) with things like the following: KITP - Egypt [EG] Want to buy Fish, Butter Dear Sir We are a company deals in field of food stuff and we would like to import the following items: 1- Haring fish. Origin: Netherlands - Norway Specifications: 3-5 fishes / 1 kgm. 2- Mackerel fish. 3- Macaroni fish. 4- Natural butter. Origin: Australia - New Zealand - Netherlands Specifications: Not salted Please send your price and specifications. Best regards, Adel El Mohandes ..... clearly "macaroni fish" here is not mackerel, since "mackerel fish" is also on this (short) list. so it's puzzling. arnold ~ Just a guess, but could he be referring to a fish with scales that look like elbow macaroni? I've seen pictures of these; don't what they're called. Obviously there are plenty of shapes of macaroni; and being half Italian, I usually spell out what shape I mean. But among my not-even-a-little-bit-Italian friends, it's common to use the term "macaroni" to refer soley to elbow macaroni. Perhaps Aden El Mohandes, above, thinks the same way. Rosemarie What flies and goes "OH-OH-OH!"? Santa flying backwards! **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Dec 25 23:02:23 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:02:23 -0500 Subject: A "twofer" In-Reply-To: <200812250441.mBOBnEE0009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The cartoon character's before my time. Your post sent me to M-W Online. I've always known of the theater definition (#2), but the others were new to me. Your example looks like an extension of #3. two?fer Etymology: alteration of two for (one) Date:1885 1: a cheap item of merchandise ; especially : a cigar selling at two for a nickel 2: a free coupon entitling the bearer to purchase two tickets to a specified theatrical production for the price of one 3: two articles available for the price of one or about the price of one 4: something that satisfies two criteria or needs simultaneously Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was > comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does > anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, > "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? > > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Fri Dec 26 02:14:13 2008 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:14:13 -0600 Subject: New military strategy: if you can't teach GI's to conjugate in Arabic, try teaching linguists to kill Message-ID: Just in time for the holidays, there's a new post on the Web of Language: New military strategy: if you can't teach GI's to conjugate in Arabic, try teaching linguists to kill Giving up on plans to beef up the nation's defenses by teaching thousands of military personnel critical languages, the army has decided that it's easier to train linguists to shoot and do one-handed push ups than it is to get soldiers to learn Arabic or Pashto. True to its slogan, "Be all that you can be," the Army turns America's muffin-topped teens into lean, mean fighting machines. But while it has no problem training raw recruits to break down and reassemble their rifles blindfolded in a sandstorm, its well-publicized efforts to teach our troops the languages of the enemy have failed. Most soldiers can't even pronounce Iran and Iraq correctly (as if an M-16 is not enough of a give-away, calling these countries eye-ran and eye-rack instantly labels you as "not from around here" in the tinder box that is the Middle East). . . . there just aren?t enough non-Arab-Americans who speak Arabic and have the clearance to work in counter-terrorism and military operations. And so, instead of drilling hopelessly anglophone troops in the Arabic equivalent of, I don't know but I've been told, amo-amas-amat . . . a tactic which hasn't produced enough fluent speakers of the language, the service is now looking for a few good native speakers of Arabic to join up for translator duty. By combing through the millions of r?sum?s on monster.com and emailing anyone listing Arabic as a language skill, Uncle Sam found enough volunteers to form the 51st TICO (Translator and Interpreter Company) and put them through translator training at a fake Iraqi village in the Mojave Desert. . . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 http://illinois.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: http://illinois.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Fri Dec 26 03:17:57 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 03:17:57 +0000 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: <200812250559.mBOBnEJQ009045@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 25 Dec 2008, at 06:00, Rosemarie wrote: > > Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've > observed: > - a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha > [snip] > > Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways > they > say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. > Are you > saying they really can't hear the differences? I do that, except that my name isn't Sascha. I grew up in a region of Germany where the regional variant of Hochdeutsch as well as local dialects have initial s always unvoiced. The way it came across was that many Northern German people had an affected way of occasionally adding an unnecessary buzzing sound to the beginning of words starting in s, and while I was definitely not supposed to pick up what was referred to as dialect, I *was* supposed to adopt the high-prestige regional features. It took growing up into my 20s, when I was studying away from home, that I realized things were more complicated. I remember the conversation very well: I had said 'sechs' (six), and one of my friends thought I was talking about Sex (sex). It was a total surprise to learn he pronounced the former with [z] and the latter with [s] -- and that this wasn't a personal idiosyncrasy. At that point I had to concentrate very hard to even hear the difference. These days, I vary. After living abroad for over 14 years now, my regional features have bleached, and I do do initial [z], sometimes. I don't consciously choose whether to use [z] or [s], but am pretty sure that when I'm speaking German in a meeting at work, I'd be more likely to say the number 6 as [zEks], whereas around my family, or a colleague who grew up in the same town as myself, it would probably come out as [sEks]. I'd similarly be able to employ the two pronunciations for the name Sascha, leaning towards ['sa.S@]. An anecdotal data point for your consideration. Cheers, Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 26 04:46:12 2008 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:46:12 -0800 Subject: All talking photoplay 1928 Message-ID: The archives take "photoplay" (movie) back to 1909. Today I saw a citation for "all talking photoplay" which perhaps is of interest. Book title: Behind the Curtain by Earl Derr Biggers On the title page: With Illustrations from the William Fox "all talking" photoplay (all caps) Grosset & dunlap New York 1928 On the copyright page: By the Curtis Publishing Company FWIW. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Fri Dec 26 06:15:54 2008 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roland Sussex) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:15:54 +1000 Subject: "Twofer" In-Reply-To: <200812260500.mBPBuaft022508@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The usage ?numeral + -fer? is common in Australian cricket commentary. If a bowler gets two batsmen out in an innings he is said to have a ?twofer? - two wickets for x runs (x unspecified). It?s more common to refer to larger numbers of wickets, especially 5 and above (there are 10 in an innings): fivefer, sixfer, and so on. Roly Sussex The University of Queensland Australia Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:02:23 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: A "twofer" The cartoon character's before my time. Your post sent me to M-W Online. I've always known of the theater definition (#2), but the others were new to me. Your example looks like an extension of #3. two?fer Etymology: alteration of two for (one) Date:1885 1: a cheap item of merchandise ; especially : a cigar selling at two for a nickel 2: a free coupon entitling the bearer to purchase two tickets to a specified theatrical production for the price of one 3: two articles available for the price of one or about the price of one 4: something that satisfies two criteria or needs simultaneously Mark Mandel On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I recently saw a CD album offered as a "_twofer_," in that it was > comprised of two former Lp albums re-recorded as a single CD. Does > anyone else remember the cartoon character from back in the 'Forties, > "_Twofer_ A. Nickel," the mascot of Hostess Cupcakes? > > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:01:57 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:01:57 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812251733.mBPCT69n022503@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that > "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that > I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the > "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my > underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE > speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to > the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than > without "that" is to be expected. i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i posted about. the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ (i'll quote from several of these below). to start with, "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, restrictive, non pied-piped, non- extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur without optional that." and then: "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or exceptionally low rates of relativizers." there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual practices). everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other people) do. it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even know what i do myself. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 16:13:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:13:44 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 2008 to 24 Dec 2008 (#2008-359) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:17 AM +0000 12/26/08, Chris Waigl wrote: >On 25 Dec 2008, at 06:00, Rosemarie wrote: >> >>Re: the above: are you referring to examples such as these I've >>observed: >>- a German boy alternately pronounces his name Sascha and Zascha >>[snip] >> >>Neither of them seems to hear anything different in the various ways >>they >>say their own names! I've always thought maybe they were joking. >>Are you >>saying they really can't hear the differences? > >I do that, except that my name isn't Sascha. > >I grew up in a region of Germany where the regional variant of >Hochdeutsch as well as local dialects have initial s always unvoiced. >The way it came across was that many Northern German people had an >affected way of occasionally adding an unnecessary buzzing sound to >the beginning of words starting in s, and while I was definitely not >supposed to pick up what was referred to as dialect, I *was* supposed >to adopt the high-prestige regional features. > >It took growing up into my 20s, when I was studying away from home, >that I realized things were more complicated. I remember the >conversation very well: I had said 'sechs' (six), and one of my >friends thought I was talking about Sex (sex). It was a total surprise >to learn he pronounced the former with [z] and the latter with [s] -- >and that this wasn't a personal idiosyncrasy. At that point I had to >concentrate very hard to even hear the difference. > >These days, I vary. After living abroad for over 14 years now, my >regional features have bleached, and I do do initial [z], sometimes. I >don't consciously choose whether to use [z] or [s], but am pretty sure >that when I'm speaking German in a meeting at work, I'd be more likely >to say the number 6 as [zEks], whereas around my family, or a >colleague who grew up in the same town as myself, it would probably >come out as [sEks]. I'd similarly be able to employ the two >pronunciations for the name Sascha, leaning towards ['sa.S@]. > >An anecdotal data point for your consideration. > And for us non-native speakers, this variability is essential to the classic riddle: Q: What did Freud say comes between fear and sex? [SPOILER SPACE] A: F?nf LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 22:45:56 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:45:56 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Rock Opera" Message-ID: OED's first use for _rock opera_ is dated 1969. According to Wikipedia: The July 4, 1966 edition of RPM Magazine (published in Toronto) notes that "Bruce Cockburn and Mr [William] Hawkins are working on a Rock Opera, operating on the premise that to write you need only 'something to say'." The Cockburn / Hawkins rock opera seems not to have been completed, though some songs from the project may be among the Cockburn and Hawkins compositions that appeared on 3's a Crowd's 1968 album, Christopher's Movie Matinee. Alternatively, the term rock opera may have originated at an informal gathering of Pete Townshend, guitarist for The Who, and some friends at some point that same year (i.e., 1966). Townshend is said to have played a comedy tape to his friends called Gratis Amatis, and one of his friends is said to have made the comment that the odd song was a "rock opera". (Kit Lambert, the Who's producer, is then said to have exclaimed "Now there's an idea!") Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 26 23:15:04 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: Further Antedating of "Rhythm and Blues" Message-ID: rhythm and blues (OED 1949) 1933 _Wisconsin State Journal_ 12 May 10 (Newspaperarchive) The fastest stepping, hottest of modern music, and the most colorful rhythm and blues singing are promised by the Ashley Theater corp., when the Orpheum theater opens under its management Sunday. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 01:36:37 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:36:37 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" Message-ID: split infinitive (OED 1897) 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sat Dec 27 04:21:56 2008 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812261602.mBQBl8GC027753@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold & everyone, About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at all the phonological environmental constraints). And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at all about the distribution of these features without really "doing the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Paul Johnston On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >> without "that" is to be expected. > > i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) > *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i > posted about. > > the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. > to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by > florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: > > http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ > > (i'll quote from several of these below). > > to start with, > > "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, > restrictive, non pied-piped, non- > extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur > without optional that." > > and then: > > "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no > relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, > properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and > number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." > > "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence > whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, > noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or > exceptionally low rates of relativizers." > > there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting > about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. > someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind > of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, > someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of > speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual > practices). > > everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases > and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can > be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless > unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's > actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it > doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other > people) do. > > it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have > different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors > being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. > i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even > know what i do myself. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Dec 27 13:47:43 2008 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 05:47:43 -0800 Subject: eggcorn Message-ID: Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." This may have been a double mistake, because immediately afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ZGHHX HZKSZ YZFQG CJQFH AADFL EYMWV ZMFCT PADFK GUECC JXSOB WSEHA MBEBQ DFKLG AVJMA QJAVR SFSC ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Dec 27 14:15:01 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:15:01 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <55ADA082-655E-4EDA-B611-DC29C6CB609F@wmich.edu> Message-ID: I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add that [sic] the human drive for invariance in speech is as fundamental as the drive for variation. They both stem from our social instinct to fit in, either to be right (variation) or not to be wrong (invariance). Schools and parents are powerful, but peer pressure is even stronger. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Paul Johnston Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 To: Subject: Re: [ADS-L] zero vs. "that" relatives Arnold & everyone, About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at all the phonological environmental constraints). And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at all about the distribution of these features without really "doing the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Paul Johnston On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >> without "that" is to be expected. > > i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) > *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i > posted about. > > the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. > to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by > florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: > > http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ > > (i'll quote from several of these below). > > to start with, > > "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, > restrictive, non pied-piped, non- > extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur > without optional that." > > and then: > > "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no > relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, > properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and > number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." > > "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence > whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, > noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or > exceptionally low rates of relativizers." > > there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting > about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. > someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind > of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, > someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of > speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual > practices). > > everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases > and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can > be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless > unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's > actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it > doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other > people) do. > > it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have > different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors > being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. > i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even > know what i do myself. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 27 14:16:48 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:16:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CA98@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >split infinitive (OED 1897) > >1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >jewel in the carcanet. And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a useful postdating. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Dec 27 14:50:41 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:50:41 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271417.mBRBkZNh005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2008, at 6:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >> Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >> jewel in the carcanet. > > And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a > useful postdating. (1876 is the latest cite in the OED entry.) the OED definition: An ornamental collar or necklace, usually of gold or set with jewels. arch. (App. obs. from c 1670 to 19th c.) [also figurative and transferred, as in this case] (nice dangling participle from J.B., by the way.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 15:54:33 2008 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:54:33 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270417.mBQBsLYX028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Paul, Very interesting. I wonder if you have data about the frequency of the glottalization of the ending "t" such as in words, "What about that," where each word can the "t" spoken with the back of the tongue thrust backward instead of the tip touching the teeth with a plosive and then aspiration. I also wonder about the ~d for ~t substitution, such that "better butter" is pronounced "bedder budder" as can be heard at m-w.com. I believe these are normal pronunciations although not even recognized as an alternative in the m-w.com phonetic notation. I recognize them as alternative pronunciations in my vOA dictionary. I believe American English is very standardized as presented in TV media newscasts. What are the biggest differences lately? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ Learn truespel in 15 minutes at http://tinypaste.com/76f44 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:56 -0500 > From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold & everyone, > > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I > can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement > by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did > the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To > an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of > them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular > variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper > class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my > informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born > and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used > it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group > used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, > in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE > vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in > general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means > socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own > vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match > reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known > that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at > all the phonological environmental constraints). > > And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be > even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so > knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. > When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into > the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at > all about the distribution of these features without really "doing > the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. > > > Paul Johnston > On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------- >>> >>> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >>> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >>> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >>> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >>> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >>> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >>> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >>> without "that" is to be expected. >> >> i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) >> *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i >> posted about. >> >> the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. >> to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by >> florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: >> >> http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ >> >> (i'll quote from several of these below). >> >> to start with, >> >> "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, >> restrictive, non pied-piped, non- >> extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur >> without optional that." >> >> and then: >> >> "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no >> relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, >> properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and >> number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." >> >> "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence >> whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, >> noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or >> exceptionally low rates of relativizers." >> >> there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting >> about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. >> someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind >> of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, >> someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of >> speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual >> practices). >> >> everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases >> and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can >> be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless >> unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's >> actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it >> doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other >> people) do. >> >> it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have >> different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors >> being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. >> i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even >> know what i do myself. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Sat Dec 27 16:01:33 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:01:33 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270500.mBQBsLZB028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Paul Johnston > ...Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. Actually, as a sociolinguist who came up through the Labovian model, i'd argue that we're not there yet--but then again, i'd argue that we're not there yet for phonological variation, either. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Sat Dec 27 16:07:38 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:07:38 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270500.mBQBsLZB028127@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Paul Johnston > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too... Good points all (including the bits i snipped), but there's a problem here that i've brought up before on this forum--how rare does something have to be in order for it to be fairly ignored as "not part of the system" or somesuch? It's easy enough to imagine that someone's linguistic system could be set up so that they have particular variants show up 1 time in 10, or 1 time in 100, or 1 time in 10,000, or whatever--so simple rarity (which would, in many cases, appear to be sporadicity) isn't enough. I don't know the answer to this. I know that others have worked on it, but i remain rather unconvinced by what i've read on *all* sides of the question. Really, it all boils down to us having a pretty good idea of how to describe linguistic variation, but not how to explain it. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:11:53 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:11:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Darwinism" Message-ID: The OED's earliest citation for _Darwinism_ is dated 1864. Wikipedia, however, cites an 1860 usage by T. H. Huxley. I believe the citation is an authentic one. Huxley, T.H. (April 1860). "ART. VIII.- Darwin on the origin of Species" 541?70. Westminster Review. Retrieved on 2008-06-19. "What if the orbit of Darwinism should be a little too circular?" Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 27 16:27:33 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:27:33 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271417.mBRBkZNh005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 27 Dec 2008, at 14:16, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 12/26/2008 08:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals >> Collection) The split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain >> jewel in the carcanet. > > And having been forced to look up "carcenet" in the OED, it may be a > useful postdating. Having looked it up, too, it turned out to be a quote from Shakespeare's Sonnet LII, which has this to say about holidays: Therefore are feasts so solemn and so rare, Since, seldom coming, in the long year set, Like stones of worth they thinly placed are, Or captain jewels in the carcanet. If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds it useful.) Tolkien also employed _carcanet_ in The Fellowship of the Ring. As for "split infinitive", a cursory look at the some search tools seems to indicate that the term, as a favourite stand-in for sub- standard writing/education/character, became a fashionable trope some time in the second half of the 1890. Has anyone written about this, accessible online or not? Chris Waigl who admires 'to solemnly curse' very much ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:37:02 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:37:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Googol" and "Googolplex" Message-ID: The OED's first uses for "googol" and "googolplex" are dated 1940. A JSTOR search, however, retrieves two 1938 citations for both words, from Science News-Letter, Feb. 12, 1938, p. 108; and Mathematical Gazette, May 1938, p. 215. These 1938 articles make it clear that Edward Kasner used both words in an article entitled "New Names in Mathematics" in _Scripta Mathematica Forum Lectures_ (1937). Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:48:45 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:48:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jewish American Princess" Message-ID: The earliest use in OED and HDAS for _Jewish-American Princess_ is dated 1972. A search on Google Books yields probaly authentic occurrences in: Transatlantic Review Published by , 1969 Item notes: no.32-35 (1969-70) Atlantis: The Autobiography of a Search By Robert Ferro, Michael Grumley Published by Doubleday, 1970 Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Dec 27 16:54:39 2008 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:54:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271628.mBRC1qRF017928@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 27 Dec 2008, at 16:27, Chris Waigl wrote: > > If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in > an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him > as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not > with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds > it useful.) > I have to take this one back because it is just a quote, too, from a source cited in the OED: 1876 MACFARREN Harmony vi. (ed. 2) 191 This a carcanet of smiles, the other, a rosary of tears. It occurs in a few more obits. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 16:55:28 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:55:28 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably authentic occurrence: Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 1969-70 To my Jap ? my Jewish American Princess. I have not, however, verified this in the original. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 17:13:18 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:13:18 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270912v54844b23obfad727dd6369c17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two phonologically similar loanwords? Mark Mandel On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > > Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: > > "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." > > This may have been a double mistake, because immediately afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. > > James A. Landau > test engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Dec 27 17:47:30 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:47:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270913u1318d973x9a5035b568c311ad@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: It's clearly just a mistake, since the teriyaki would have come out to the patio to be cooked, not into the auditorium to be played. Joel At 12/27/2008 12:13 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two >phonologically similar loanwords? > >Mark Mandel > > >On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: > > > > Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: > > > > "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." > > > > This may have been a double mistake, because immediately > afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. > > > > James A. Landau > > test engineer > > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 18:11:44 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:11:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: eggcorn In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812270913u1318d973x9a5035b568c311ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:13 PM -0500 12/27/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >Why an eggcorn, rather than just a slip of the tongue between two >phonologically similar loanwords? > >Mark Mandel ...and, crucially, both mentally "filed" as <+ Japanese>. Reminds me of the time a few years ago when I was going through the cafeteria line in a Yale College dining hall and kept asking for broccoli, and wondered with increasing frustration why the server wasn't ladling me out the...ravioli. More like a slip of the synapse than of the tongue, I'd say. LH P.S. On the second "mistake", there are in fact many many (290K) google hits for "live band" + karaoke, and assuming this counts as karaoke (although we may be in the realm of peanut butter and oral sex), the nursing home wasn't in error on that one. 27,800 hits for "live band karaoke" (with quotes); but I admit none at all for "live band teriyaki", so I can't defend that one. > > >On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:47 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: >> >> Heard on the PA system at a nursing home: >> >> "There will be teriyaki, uh, karaoke in the auditorium." >> >> This may have been a double mistake, because immediately >>afterwards two musicians walked in carrying their instruments. >> >> James A. Landau >> test engineer >> Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >> 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >> West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dth10 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 19:42:15 2008 From: dth10 at HOTMAIL.COM (david hughes) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:42:15 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271655.mBRBkZQD005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In Britain there's a small independent publishing house called Carcanet (http://www.carcanet.co.uk/about.shtml). David Hughes > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:54:39 +0000> From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET> Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive"> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris Waigl > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Split Infinitive"> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > On 27 Dec 2008, at 16:27, Chris Waigl wrote:> >> > If you need a postdating, there's one in the Times Digital Archive, in> > an obituary of March 16, 1933, which ends wthus: "Let us remember him> > as he would have us remember him, with a 'carcanet of smiles' and not> > with a 'rosary of tears.'" (I took a screenshot, in case someone finds> > it useful.)> >> > I have to take this one back because it is just a quote, too, from a> source cited in the OED:> > 1876 MACFARREN Harmony vi. (ed. 2) 191 This a carcanet of smiles, the> other, a rosary of tears.> > It occurs in a few more obits.> > Chris Waigl> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Are you a PC?? Upload your PC story and show the world http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 27 21:02:51 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:02:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812270139.mBQBl8NG027753@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > split infinitive (OED 1897) > > 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The split infinitive ('to > solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:37:08 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:37:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" Message-ID: OED's first use of _yuppie_ is dated 1984. Barry Popik has pushed the word back to a 1981 occurrence in the Chicago Tribune. An earlier citation is asserted by Wikipedia: Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:48:01 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:48:01 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812271942.mBRC1qU3017928@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> split infinitive (OED 1897) >> >> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The >> split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. > > Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. Just checked for myself. It's in a review of _Having and Holding_ by J.E. Panton, which the reviewer calls "A Novel in Journalese". The metaphor (with its Shakespearean echo noted by Chris) is, as you might expect, a bit of prescriptivist sarcasm: "_Having and Holding_ reads like the work of a promising beginner. Rich and rare are the gems of its grammar. 'Every' has a plural verb; one thing is 'different to' another; install is spelt with one 'l' and withal with two; 'art' becomes an adjective; the split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. 'As' invariably and with becoming modesty gives way to the euphonious 'like' -- 'like our post-girl has done'; and you hear of a gardener who is 'clerk and leader of the choir Sundays,' although no explanation offers light to your darkness on the subject of a choir Sunday, and the duties of the reader of a choir Sunday -- (which is perhaps a reminiscence of 'All the feet of the hours that sound as a single lyre') -- cannot be compassed by a merely human imagination." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 27 22:58:07 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:58:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Deadhead" Message-ID: The OED's first use for _Deadhead_ 'Grateful Dead fan' is dated 1972. According to Wikipedia: The term first appeared in print on the Grateful sleeve of Grateful Dead (also known as Skull & Roses), the band's second live album, released in 1971.[6] It read, as suggested by Hank Harrison: ? DEAD FREAKS UNITE: Who are you? Where are you? How are you? Send us your name and address and we'll keep you informed. Dead Heads, P.O. Box 1065, San Rafael, CA 94901. ? This phenomenon was first touched on in print by Village Voice music critic Robert Christgau at a Felt Forum show in 1971, noting "how many 'regulars' seemed to be in attendance, and how, from the way they compared notes, they'd obviously made a determined effort to see as many shows as possible."[6] Eileen Law, a long time friend of the band, was put in charge of the mailing list and maintained the Dead Heads newsletter. It is estimated that by the end of 1971, the band had received about 350 letters, but this number swelled greatly over the next few years to as many as 40,000.[6] In total, 25 mailings/newsletters reached Dead Heads between October 1971 and February 1980. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Dec 27 23:48:21 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:48:21 -0500 Subject: widower Message-ID: Found in the caption of the photo. The second sentence is from the body of the article. Novel use or a typo? http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2008/12/27/2008-12-27_day_before_husbands_suicide_wife_of_fren.html Claudine de la Villehuchet, *widower* of the Billionaire hedge fund manager who committed suicide after losing money in the Madoff Ponzi scheme. ... His *widow* has been in seclusion at their home in New Rochelle, N.Y. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 00:30:48 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:30:48 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Split Infinitive" In-Reply-To: <200812272248.mBRBkZVX005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, that makes twice that I've encountered "carcanet". The first time was Tolkien's (in "E?rendil", in LotR): More bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet I find this use of "captain" ("a captain jewel in the carcanet") at least as interesting. And OED not only defines it but gives us the source as well: >> captain, a. Obs. Chief, principal, leading, head-. Quotations: ... c1600 SHAKES. Sonn. lii, Like stones of worth..Or captain jewels in the carcanet. ... << The def. as "head-" is a bonus. Mark Mandel On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> >>> split infinitive (OED 1897) >>> >>> 1890 _Scots Observer_ 13 Sept. 439 (British Periodicals Collection) The >>> split infinitive ('to solemnly curse') is a captain jewel in the carcanet. >> >> Would be curious to know the context for this ornamental metaphor. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 00:50:30 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:50:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" Message-ID: OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 11:39:33 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 06:39:33 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" Message-ID: Jeff Miller's web site on words of mathematics gives more information about the coinage of "googol" and "googolplex." He dates the Scripta Mathematica usage as 1938, not 1937: GOOGOL and GOOGOLPLEX are found in Edward Kasner, "New Names in Mathematics," Scripta Mathematica. 5: 5-14, January 1938 (unseen). Googol and googolplex appear on Jan. 31, 1938, in the "Science Today" column in the Dunkirk (N. Y.) Evening Observer. The article mentions the "amusing article in Scripta Mathematica." Googol and googolplex are found in March 1938 in The Mathematics Teacher: "The following examples are of mathematical terms coined by Prof. Kasner himself: turbine, polygenic functions, parhexagon, hyper-radical or ultra-radical, googol and googolplex. A googol is defined as 10100. A googolplex is 10googol, which is 1010100." [This quotation is part of a review of the January 1938 article above.] Googol and googolplex were coined by Milton Sirotta, nephew of American mathematician Edward Kasner (1878-1955), according to Mathematics and the Imagination (1940) by Kasner and James R. Newman: Words of wisdom are spoken by children at least as often as by scientists. The name "googol" was invented by a child (Dr. Kasner's nine-year-old nephew) who was asked to think up a name for a very big number, namely, 1 with a hundred zeros after it. He was very certain that this number was not infinite, and therefore equally certain that it had to have a name. At the same time that he suggested "googol" he gave a name for a still larger number: "Googolplex." A googolplex is much larger than a googol, but is still finite, as the inventor of the name was quick to point out. This quotation was taken from the article "New Names for Old" found in The World of Mathematics (1956) by Newman. The article is identified as an excerpt from Mathematics and the Imagination. The Merriam Webster dictionaries identify the nine-year-old nephew as Milton Sirotta, "b. about 1929." A Wikipedia article gives the dates for Milton Sirotta as (c. 1911-1980), and says he coined the term around 1920. The German Wikipedia gives Milton's dates as (1929 to ? about 1980). The Social Security death index shows one person named Milton Sirotta. He was born on Mar. 8, 1911, and died in Feb. 1981, with his last residence in Mount Vernon, N. Y. Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable. Thus it is pronounced differently from the name of the Internet company Google, although the Internet company name is a misspelling of googol. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Dec 28 07:02:57 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:02:57 -0800 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing assuredly that he is divine, To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting patiently in a pew, Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till my spirit arouses me, Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like man leaving charges before a journey. I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, But wind the circuit which I've wound before." In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? Geoff Nunberg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 28 12:50:25 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:50:25 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2008, at 02:02, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. I wouldn't discount the electrical sense, but it might come from a different angle than you're thinking. Consider this page at Google Books from "Walt Whitman" by David S. Reynolds. http://tinyurl.com/7tj7ke "Whitman's use of the vocabulary of animal magnetism and electricity shows the mesmerists' influence. [...] So well attuned to the electrical theory was Whitman that at times his poetic personal seems like a bundle of electrical impulses. 'I have instant conductors all over me whether I pass or stop,' he writes in 'Song of Myself.'" Reynolds goes on to quote the memorable line, "I sing the body electric." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djh514 at YORK.AC.UK Sun Dec 28 13:25:10 2008 From: djh514 at YORK.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:25:10 +0000 Subject: Variation in AmE (was: zero vs. "that" relatives) Message-ID: Tom Zurinskas asked what the latest findings on variation in American English were. A very good summary is to be found in the _Atlas of North American English_ (Labov, Ash and Boberg 2006). It's a lavishly-illustrated book with accompanying website; many University libraries will hopefully have access to it. Tom, as you're not attached to a University, this may not help you much, but I hope you're able to get access to it somehow. It allows you to compare pronunciations of all the items on a pretty long list of words (containing many examples of each of the vowel phonemes of AmE), pronounced by nearly 500 speakers from all over the US and Canada. As far as analysis is concerned, the book has lots of it, but there are also sections that give summaries of the main tendencies, before all the detail kicks in. Damien -- Damien Hall University of York Department of Language and Linguistic Science Heslington York YO10 5DD UK Tel. (office) 01904 432665 (mobile) 0771 853 5634 Fax 01904 432673 http://www.york.ac.uk/res/aiseb/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Dec 28 13:26:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:26:28 -0500 Subject: WOTY preview (Philly Inquirer) Message-ID: http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20081228__quot_Obamanation__quot___quot_bailout_quot__and__quot_change__quot_.html and syndicated elsewhere: http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/954429.html http://www.charlotteobserver.com/408/story/438846.html http://www.sunjournal.com/story/297209-3/National/Bailout_maverick_word_of_2008_contenders/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From djh514 at YORK.AC.UK Sun Dec 28 13:42:56 2008 From: djh514 at YORK.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:42:56 +0000 Subject: Differences that people make but can't hear Message-ID: I don't have many books by me, which is why I didn't reply to this question immediately. But, since analyses by Labov and others, the phenomenon of people making consistent differences that they can't hear has been known as a near-merger (of the two phonemes between which this slight difference is made). The classic example is _merry_ and _Murray_ in Philadelphia; many natives of the City of Philadelphia pronounce both so that they sound like _Murray_ (which has led to the Philly stereotype 'Murray Christmas'). People who have this near-merger are often shown not to be able to tell the difference between the two words, even when they are recorded saying both words and their own pronunciations are played back to them. And yet a non-negligible number of these speakers make a very small but consistent phonetic difference between the two words, obviously too small for them to perceive consciously, but there nevertheless when you do an instrumental analysis. I deliberately specify that it's usually people from the City of Philadelphia who have this near-merger: even people from the rest of the Philadelphia urban area (the towns of the surrounding counties of PA and NJ) have been shown not to have it (up to now). This is different from other features of the Philadelphia accent (its short-a system, and so on), which _do_ also appear in the surrounding urban area. A good description of this particular near-merger, the very inventive test cooked up to diagnose it (the Coach Test), and a discussion of how the phenomenon could be accounted for), can be found in: Labov, William. 1994. _Principles of Linguistic Change, Volume 1: Internal Factors_. Oxford, UK and Malden, MA, USA: Blackwell. Happy New Year! Damien Hall -- Damien Hall University of York Department of Language and Linguistic Science Heslington York YO10 5DD UK Tel. (office) 01904 432665 (mobile) 0771 853 5634 Fax 01904 432673 http://www.york.ac.uk/res/aiseb/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Dec 28 14:47:37 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:47:37 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Geoffrey Nunberg : > A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" > asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders > of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > > I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, > My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, > Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, > Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, > Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... > Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, > To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, > Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, > Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > > One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > > I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of > circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the > Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If > it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. > writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be > chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman > was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a > regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has > the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 > narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > > "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > > In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could > also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, > beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > > Geoff Nunberg Perhaps compare his use of these words elsewhere, e.g. (via GooglBooks): Crossing the Alleghanies (1848) to follow the course of an interminable brook, winding with its windings, and twisting with its twists... and twisting with its twists, in a, to me, singular fashion. But even with so many circuits, the road had to be cut through very many bad places; Democratic Vistas At best, we can only offer suggestions, comparisons, circuits. It must still be reiterated, as, for the purpose of these memoranda, the deep lesson of... Song of Myself My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making specks of ... (and others) Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 14:35:36 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:35:36 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <4A8ACCB5-DBF1-4A9B-8E47-3244B8F19123@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Emerging from the 18th century, I wonder whether it alludes to the idea (emerging during the Enlightenment, I think) that God set the universe in motion according to certain rules (that notion would explain discovery of the laws of science), and then let it run like clockwork. (He then did not intervene directly in the minor matters of the world -- no more "divine providence" for every small distress or success -- but only in significant cases.) The "circuits" might refer to the motions of the planets and stars, and the "circuit of circuits" to the universe as a whole. I leave the "winders" to the imagination. But that's what poetry's all about, isn't it? Different strokes for different folks. Joel At 12/28/2008 02:02 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" >asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders >of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > >I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, >My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, >Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and modern, >Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, >Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... >Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > >One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > >I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of >circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the >Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If >it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. >writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be >chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman >was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a >regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has >the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 >narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > >"So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > >In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could >also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, >beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > >Geoff Nunberg > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:19:46 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:19:46 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281300.mBSBksOl006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Typo correction: make that "poetic persona". Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/7tj7ke > > "Whitman's use of the vocabulary of animal magnetism and electricity > shows the mesmerists' influence. [...] So well attuned to the > electrical theory was Whitman that at times his poetic personal seems <==== > like a bundle of electrical impulses. 'I have instant conductors all > over me whether I pass or stop,' he writes in 'Song of Myself.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 16:38:50 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:38:50 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay Message-ID: Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: "As it were -- that's their motto." And I went tick... tick... BOOM! as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: 1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ 2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 16:49:08 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:49:08 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: From someone on the eighteenth-century email list. Note that he thinks of itinerant preachers. >From: James Rovira > >One possibility, if you focus on these lines: > ><Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits.>> > >He initially seems to be describing a variety of religious >practices/groups in America, which makes sense of earlier lines in >which the poet's faith encloses all other faiths, ancient and >modern. The subsequent lines quoted below describe modern faiths >while previous lines (referring to oracles) describe ancient ones: > >"mass kneeling" -- could refer to a "mass of people" or to Catholic services. >"or the puritan's prayer rising" >"or sitting patiently in a pew" >"ranting and frothing...." could refer to Quakers and Shakers or >similar groups. > >"or" in the previous lines probably refers simultaneously to >different postures of worship within a modern prayer service -- >kneeling, praying, sitting, ranting, waiting dead-like (in today's >Pentecostal circles this is called being "slain in the spirit," as >you may recall seeing people collapse on stage during a televised >evangelist's service) -- and to different religious groups >themselves: Catholics, Puritans, and earlier forms of >Charismatic/Pentecostal groups. > >The next line's "looking forth on pavement and land" is the action >of "his spirit" after it has aroused him. But pavement implies >travel, so the word "circuit" in the next line could refer to the >itinerary of traveling preachers -- his spirit is looking forth on >pavement and land for the experience these preachers or similar >figures bring. Since the word "winders" is plural it probably >doesn't refer to a divine clock winder of sorts, which as presented >by mechanical philosophers would be singular -- the "winders" are >probably the priests mentioned in the first of your quoted >lines. The priests "wind the circuit" (motivate the activity?) of >"circuits" (traveling preachers' itineraries). > >A possibility, anyway. > >Jim R ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 16:53:13 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:53:13 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812280838i4ae17cc3xc21e9f837878dff5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > >And I went > tick... tick... BOOM! >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > >Mark Mandel > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 16:54:32 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:54:32 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <20081228094737.49ttmzgxs04swco4@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Song of Myself >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making specks >of ... This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the universe. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 28 17:23:12 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:23:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CAA3@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 07:50:30PM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: > > The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" > This is not correct. The referenced article only used the compound "disco sound"; OED already has an 1965 quot. for "disco beat", if we're accepting compounds. I've edited Wikipedia to reflect this. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Dec 28 17:25:13 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:25:13 -0800 Subject: "wide asleep" Message-ID: Elizabeth Daingerfield Zwicky reports that her daughter Opal (age 4) says that when she is deeply asleep she is "wide asleep". makes sense, though it's not idiomatic. turns out that there's a big pile of google hits for "wide asleep" (including for a 2002 movie of that name), in a wide variety of senses. my favorite is its use for a baby sleeping with its eyes wide open. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 18:09:00 2008 From: aandrea1234 at GMAIL.COM (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281700.mBSDnaf5006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple of instances of "circuit of circuits" from a few decades after Whitman wrote "Song of Myself": "O my soul, I have given thee new names and gay-coloured playthings, I have called thee 'Fate' and 'the Circuit of circuits' and 'the navel-string of time' and 'the Azure bell.'" from Thus Spake Zarathustra, Friedrich Neitzche 1880s "?[Nature], however, never remains entirely or eternally determined and fixed into any permanent and unalterably persistent reality as such, but is forever in a continual course of change and flow, ever returning out of its special and particular realizations, in a circuit of circuits, into the absolute unity, fullness, and allness of the universality?" from Realistic Idealism in Philosophy Itself, Nathaniel Holmes 1888 The quotations above suggest a linking of the phrase with the spiritual or metaphysical, but as someone else has said, "Song of Myself" is poetry, so I doubt there is one fixed meaning for the phrase. It's more both/and than either/or, especially with Whitman. Andrea On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >Song of Myself > >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his > >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making > specks > >of ... > > This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the > universe. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 28 19:05:57 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:05:57 -0500 Subject: "wide asleep" In-Reply-To: <739F0574-A666-4D94-A096-5E6E8BBA0340@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 9:25 AM -0800 12/28/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >Elizabeth Daingerfield Zwicky reports that her daughter Opal (age 4) >says that when she is deeply asleep she is "wide asleep". makes >sense, though it's not idiomatic. > >turns out that there's a big pile of google hits for "wide >asleep" (including for a 2002 movie of that name), in a wide variety >of senses. my favorite is its use for a baby sleeping with its eyes >wide open. > If Stanley ("Eyes Wide Shut") Kubrick hadn't died (--almost 10 years ago! Time does fly), he could have made a sequel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Dec 28 19:37:54 2008 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:37:54 -0500 Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 Message-ID: Ben Zimmer and I have been playing tag with this one for some years. I found 1938(Henry McLemore, the sports writer) and Ben found that McLemore had used it in 1937. Using Newspaperarchive, _Big Springs(TX) Daily Herald_ May 5 1936 4/5 A story about FDR's press secretary, Marvin McIntyre, who seems to have been an avid golfer(from searching around papers of the time). "Another McIntyre-ism is the use of the 'mulligan'---links-ology for a second shot employed after a previously dubbed shot." Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 19:51:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:51:01 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812281653.mBSDnawY006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing, Larry. When I first heard the pswaydo-Latin, _Nihil nisi bastardi carborundum est_, translated as, "Don't let the bastards grind you down!", back in the 'Fiddies, I couldn't make any sense out of it at all and failed utterly to get the point, even after I had heard several explanations of it. Back in the day, I had placed third in the National Jesuit High-School Latin Contest and I knew damned well that that quotation was simply gibberish. I just couldn't wrap my head around the possibility that anyone could understand it as a joke, when it was clearly utter nonsense. I understood that a "bastard" was a kind of file and that Carborundum was the name of a company that made files and other grinding materials. But, beyond that, I was lost. It was years before I finally cottoned to the fact that it was gibberish was itself the point that was supposed to make the phrase a funny pun. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: macaronic wordplay > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: >>Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after >>something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: >> >>"As it were -- that's their motto." >> >>And I went >> tick... tick... BOOM! >>as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: >> >>1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ >>2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" >> >>Mark Mandel >> > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Dec 28 20:02:35 2008 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:02:35 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" Message-ID: The New York Times has this apparent variant from 9/28/1980: "Mr. [Arthur] Miller himself speaks in the voice of his characters, despite having acquired certain characteristics of the country squire in the years since he moved to a renovated 1740 farmhouse on a hillside in Roxbury, Connecticut. . . . Delighted by rural life, Mr. Miller is what another writer who lives in the neighborhood refers to as a "yupper " - a refugee from New York who mingles easily with the local populace." The article does not further define "yupper," and Arthur Miller by this time was 64, making his status as a young urban professional somewhat questionable. However, I see that Urban Dictionary does include a definition for "yupper" as "A young city or suburban resident with a well-paid professional job and an affluent lifestyle," and that sounds a lot like a yuppie. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Sat 12/27/2008 5:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" OED's first use of _yuppie_ is dated 1984. Barry Popik has pushed the word back to a 1981 occurrence in the Chicago Tribune. An earlier citation is asserted by Wikipedia: Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:12:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:12:25 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281809.mBSBksVx006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geoff Nunberg writes: "... an itinerant clergyman..." FWIW, in the Methodist Church, of which I was a member before converting to The One True Faith, such clergymen, once (still?) a defining feature of that church, were (are?) known as "circuit riders." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Andrea Morrow > Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A couple of instances of "circuit of circuits" from a few decades after > Whitman wrote "Song of Myself": > > "O my soul, I have given thee new names and gay-coloured playthings, I have > called thee 'Fate' and 'the Circuit of circuits' and 'the navel-string of > time' and 'the Azure bell.'" > from Thus Spake Zarathustra, Friedrich Neitzche 1880s > > "=85[Nature], however, never remains entirely or eternally determined and > fixed into any permanent and unalterably persistent reality as such, but is > forever in a continual course of change and flow, ever returning out of its > special and particular realizations, in a circuit of circuits, into the > absolute unity, fullness, and allness of the universality=85" > from Realistic Idealism in Philosophy Itself, Nathaniel Holmes 1888 > > The quotations above suggest a linking of the phrase with the spiritual or > metaphysical, but as someone else has said, "Song of Myself" is poetry, so = > I > doubt there is one fixed meaning for the phrase. It's more both/and than > either/or, especially with Whitman. > > Andrea > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> At 12/28/2008 09:47 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >Song of Myself >> >My sun has his sun, and round him obediently wheels ; He joins, with his >> >partners, a group of superior circuit ; And greater sets follow, making >> specks >> >of ... >> >> This could be consistent with my supposition of the clockwork of the >> universe. >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Sun Dec 28 20:39:07 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:39:07 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay Message-ID: Wilson wrote: " . . . gibberish was itself the point that was supposed to make the phrase a funny pun." -- That and your buddy Mark (aka Sam'l C) must have been in mind when whomever named the software tool known as 'TWAIN' -- which stands for 'Tool Without An Interesting Name'. Delightful gibletish indeed! dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Dec 28 20:33:50 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:33:50 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CAA1@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2008, at 17:37, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... > there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. > > I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the > Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. Rottenberg has agreed to send me a copy of the article, which I will share with anyone who is interested. He also writes: "Incidentally, although my use of the term 'Yuppie' predated usage by others who've claimed to have originated it, the term didn't originate with me. I just used it in my 1980 article because I heard other people using it? precisely who, I don't recall." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 20:58:31 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:58:31 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812281653.mBSDnawW006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield saying VER IT AS which I always thought of with the /w/. That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to mention before). Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after > >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > > > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > > > >And I went > > tick... tick... BOOM! > >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > > > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ > >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > > > >Mark Mandel > > > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Dec 28 21:04:05 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:04:05 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Yuppie" In-Reply-To: <48AFF40C-B51F-43A3-968B-6D2C0B94E7C2@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 03:33:50PM -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Dec 27, 2008, at 17:37, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> Dan Rottenberg (May 1980). "About that urban renaissance.... >> there'll be a slight delay", Chicago Magazine, p. 154ff. >> >> I have not verified the 1980 cite in the original, although the >> Chicago provenance seems quite plausible. > > > Rottenberg has agreed to send me a copy of the article, which I will > share with anyone who is interested. Yes please! > He also writes: > > "Incidentally, although my use of the term 'Yuppie' predated usage by > others who've claimed to have originated it, the term didn't originate > with me. I just used it in my 1980 article because I heard other > people using it? precisely who, I don't recall." I've heard several people claim plausibly that they'd heard or used it in New York in the late 1970s. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM Sun Dec 28 21:27:19 2008 From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:27:19 -0800 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812281258i2b84290cneec088e000d476d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Or, when one sees a vertical post firmly anchored in the ground, and it is labeled... Toti ehor sesto one knows it's a hitching post for your equine? V/R Bruce Hunter Mark Mandel wrote: > I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) > my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in > Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield > saying > VER > IT > AS > which I always thought of with the /w/. > > That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson > as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to > mention before). > > Mark Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Dec 28 22:24:55 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:24:55 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <200812282127.mBSDna7k006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, because "totiehorsesto" isn't a single word in any language I know. Mark Mandel On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Bruce Hunter wrote: > Or, when one sees a vertical post firmly anchored in the ground, and it > is labeled... > > Toti > ehor > sesto > > one knows it's a hitching post for your equine? > > V/R > Bruce Hunter > > Mark Mandel wrote: >> I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) >> my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in >> Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield >> saying >> VER >> IT >> AS >> which I always thought of with the /w/. >> >> That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson >> as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to >> mention before). >> >> Mark Mandel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Sun Dec 28 23:51:59 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:51:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812271658.mBRC1q20006321@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish > American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably > authentic occurrence: > > > Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 > 1969-70 > > To my Jap ? my Jewish American Princess. > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School ISBN > 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 00:10:58 2008 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:10:58 -0500 Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" In-Reply-To: <200812281216.mBSBksMh006265@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Geoffrey Nunberg > Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A poet I know who has been annotating Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself" > asked me if I could help explicate the meaning of the phrase "winders > of the circuit of circuits" in section 41 of the poem: > > I do not despise you priests, all time, the world over, > My faith is the greatest of faiths and the least of faiths, > Enclosing worship ancient and modern and all between ancient and > modern, > Believing I shall come again upon the earth after five thousand years, > Waiting responses from oracles, honoring the gods, saluting the sun... > Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, > To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, > Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, > Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, > Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits. > > One of that centripetal and centrifugal gang I turn and talk like > man leaving charges before a journey. > > I'm at a bit of a loss here -- It isn't clear what a winder of > circuits/circuit winder is supposed to be. (As best I can tell, the > Whitman literature doesn't have anything to say about this line.) If > it's a fixed collocation, it doesn't occur a whole lot in 19th c. > writing. Current citations for "wind a circuit" etc. seem to be > chiefly electrical, but that isn't likely to have been what Whitman > was getting at. It might simply mean "following a circuit (i.e., a > regular route among a round of places in succession), where 'wind' has > the sense of the related verb 'wend' ; cf the lines from the 1809 > narrative poem "Gilbert," available on Google Books: > > "So when day breaks Til tempt my fate no more, > But wind the circuit which I've wound before." > > In which case (particularly given the immediate context) this could > also be an allusion to an itinerant clergyman, I suppose. Anyway, > beyond that I'm stumped -- does anybody have any ideas on this one? > > Geoff Nunberg ~~~~~~~~~~ This last seems plausible, given that itinerant clergymen were often called "circuit riders." AM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 00:20:20 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:20:20 -0500 Subject: macaronic wordplay In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10812281258i2b84290cneec088e000d476d@mail.gmail.com > Message-ID: Another bit of vertical moronic word play from the Harvard campus: Scattered around are emergency phones to reach the Harvard police. The poles have vertical lettering, which often has been defaced to read C A L L F O R A S S S T A N C E Joel At 12/28/2008 03:58 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >I guess it's because I learned my Latin as (pause to count on fingers) >my 3rd language, in H.S., with Classical pronunciation. And living in >Mass. for 20 years I was plenty exposed to Harvard and their shield >saying > VER > IT > AS >which I always thought of with the /w/. > >That shield probably also conditioned me -- and p'raps Ms. Dickinson >as well -- to breaking it up that exact way (which I didn't think to >mention before). > >Mark Mandel > > >On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > > At 11:38 AM -0500 12/28/08, Mark Mandel wrote: > > >Heard on the weekend on, I think, "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me", after > > >something about a Harvard basketball team, from Amy Dickinson: > > > > > >"As it were -- that's their motto." > > > > > >And I went > > > tick... tick... BOOM! > > >as (to mix metaphors) the penny dropped: > > > > > >1. Harvard's motto, "Veritas", in the classical pronunciation: /'wEritas/ > > >2. Split and reverse order: "as it were" > > > > > >Mark Mandel > > > > > This one really puzzled me on first read-through, partly because of > > the obscurity of the algorithm (pronounce as in classical Latin, > > which Harvard's motto rarely is, and then reverse order of syllables > > and treat each as an English word?) and partly because I read it as > > having been observed by *Emily* Dickinson, who wouldn't have been a > > close follower of Harvard basketball. Whatever. > > > > LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Dec 29 02:50:59 2008 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:50:59 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in Marjorie Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the early forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha Pi, there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Murie" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >> authentic occurrence: >> >> >> Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 >> 1969-70 >> >> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >> >> >> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >> Yale Law School ISBN >> 0300107986 >> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 03:08:06 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:08:06 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <9BBEDA786181403EAFDBC05A9C6F43B4@WBJF> Message-ID: Using Google I found this: "According to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities at pp. 807-08 (19th Ed. 1977), Iota Alpha Pi was the oldest national college sorority founded by Jewish women. It was founded at Hunter(then Normal) College in New York in March, 1903." So, should we conclude that JAP was in use in 1903? Fred Shapiro ___________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerome Foster [funex79 at CHARTER.NET] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in Marjorie Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the early forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha Pi, there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Murie" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alison Murie > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >> authentic occurrence: >> >> >> Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 >> 1969-70 >> >> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >> >> >> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >> Yale Law School ISBN >> 0300107986 >> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 29 03:34:41 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:34:41 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812290309.mBSDnan9006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Apparently originally pronounced "jay-ay-pee" (speculatively "J. A. P." = "just a plain [sorority]"), JAP was founded in 1903 (says the book), and the name apparently was "Hellenized" to iota alpha pi around 1913. The sorority apparently disbanded in 1971. Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_alpha_pi (the Sanua book is available via Google Books) The pronunciation "jap" for this "JAP" would have been much less natural in 1903 or 1913 than in later times. And I don't know that iota alpha pi was called either "jap" or "jay-ay-pee" in later times. Maybe somebody knows an alumna? The secret of the name might be revealed! -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 04:21:57 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:21:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" In-Reply-To: <200812282352.mBSDnald006965@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notwithstanding the sorority subthread, others share the view of post-war origin. http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/03/13/the_return_of_the_jap/ The Return of the JAP, Alana Newhouse, Boston Globe, March 13, 2005
BEFORE PARIS HILTON made a career of flaunting her daddy's money, before Carrie Bradshaw transformed Manolo Blahnik from a shoe into a raison d'etre, even before Madonna unabashedly asserted herself as a Material Girl, there was the Jewish-American Princess. First identified in postwar America, the JAP was a girl lavished with the best in life-from the top of her professionally straightened mane of hair, to the nose job she got for her 16th birthday, to a wardrobe of designer clothes and the most expensive shoes money could buy. ... Now, just in time for the 50th anniversary of Herman Wouk's ''Marjorie Morningstar''-which, along with Philip Roth's ''Goodbye, Columbus,'' is widely viewed as one of the earliest references to the stereotype-the JAP is back. Only this time, the term isn't an insult but an ironic badge of honor.
Some of the more recent references that I found--including other parts of the Globe article (above) and the Wiki entry, along with its sources--take a view that surprises me somewhat on the use of "JAP", especially in the 1980s. Perhaps I lived a sheltered life in the 80s, but my impression was that, although clearly derogatory, "JAP" was an intra-cultural term more than an inter-cultural slur. This was so much so that when I used it, in passing, in the 1990s, a couple of my California friends wondered how the Japanese entered the conversation. Although there is no question that JAP was occasionally used alongside other ethnic slurs, and it was, by no means, a term of endearment, I wonder if this was really in such common use as to rise beyond a couple of narrowly defined subcultures. By late 1990s, I have heard some uses of "JAP" by non-Jewish teenage girls to essentially ascribe materialistic tendencies or consumerism to themselves. However, I would question any claim that this had anything to do with anti-Semitic stereotypes more than with the original coinage (in all appearances, self-deprecating). If a non-Jewish teenage girl proclaims, after a shopping spree, "I can be such a JAP sometimes!" this hardly means that the connotation being conveyed is in any way anti-Semitic. (Which would have meant that the statement was essentially, "I am such a Jew!") In fact, if anything, it is much closer to the contemporary meaning of the expression, as reflected by most sources in the last four-five years (including Wiki, Boston Globe, NYT, several novels, etc.). The reason I question this issue is that it may very well lead to a clash over the terminology between social linguists and sociologists. VS-) PS: Unfortunately, my reaction essentially amounts to anecdotal evidence (beyond the late-use evidence, which is what one can easily find on-line). If someone can come up with clear evidence contradicting my experience, I will gladly stand corrected. However, one should not discount the evolutionary turn that the use of "JAP" has clearly taken in recent years. This should not evolve into a battle of anecdotes (nor is it likely appropriate for this thread or this listserv). My reaction was precipitated by a shock I got from the Wiki article and some of its cited sources. Please do not interpret this as some kind of crusade. Alison Murie wrote: > Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first > encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. > AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Mon Dec 29 05:27:44 2008 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:27:44 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" Message-ID: I had no idea that IAP was a real sorority. I had cousins who were members at Brooklyn College and I do know that they had no problem in referring to themselves as JAPS so maybe I retroactively thought up the JAP/IAP idea...J Foster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shapiro, Fred" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Google I found this: > > "According to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities at pp. > 807-08 > (19th Ed. 1977), Iota Alpha Pi was the oldest national college sorority > founded by Jewish women. It was founded at Hunter(then Normal) College in > New York in March, 1903." > > So, should we conclude that JAP was in use in 1903? > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ___________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jerome Foster [funex79 at CHARTER.NET] > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:50 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > > -Herman Wouk may have originated the type if not the actual term in > Marjorie > Morningstar in 1945 but I believe the term preceded the novel. In the > early > forties there was an informal sorority of Jew ish girls call Iota Alpha > Pi, > there being no J in greek, the Iota was the closest they could get to > JAP.....Jerome Foster, Los Osos, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alison Murie" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Alison Murie >> Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Surely this is very late?!? Unless I'm hallucinating, I first >> encountered this term in the late 40s early 50s. >> AM >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> On Dec 27, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >>> Subject: Antedating of "JAP" >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish >>> American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably >>> authentic occurrence: >>> >>> >>> Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 >>> 1969-70 >>> >>> To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. >>> >>> >>> I have not, however, verified this in the original. >>> >>> Fred Shapiro >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Fred R. Shapiro Editor >>> Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS >>> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >>> Yale Law School ISBN >>> 0300107986 >>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 07:09:26 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:09:26 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812281142.mBSBdY8P001396@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fred Shapiro notes: "Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable." FWIW, there's a word in BE that I would spell _googob_, which likewise has secondary stress on the second syllable and which has the meaning, "a very large number of count nouns or a very large amount of a mass noun." A googob of a near-coincidence. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 6:39 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeff Miller's web site on words of mathematics gives more information about the coinage of "googol" and "googolplex." He dates the Scripta Mathematica usage as 1938, not 1937: > > > GOOGOL and GOOGOLPLEX are found in Edward Kasner, "New Names in Mathematics," Scripta Mathematica. 5: 5-14, January 1938 (unseen). > > Googol and googolplex appear on Jan. 31, 1938, in the "Science Today" column in the Dunkirk (N. Y.) Evening Observer. The article mentions the "amusing article in Scripta Mathematica." > > Googol and googolplex are found in March 1938 in The Mathematics Teacher: "The following examples are of mathematical terms coined by Prof. Kasner himself: turbine, polygenic functions, parhexagon, hyper-radical or ultra-radical, googol and googolplex. A googol is defined as 10100. A googolplex is 10googol, which is 1010100." [This quotation is part of a review of the January 1938 article above.] > > Googol and googolplex were coined by Milton Sirotta, nephew of American mathematician Edward Kasner (1878-1955), according to Mathematics and the Imagination (1940) by Kasner and James R. Newman: > > Words of wisdom are spoken by children at least as often as by scientists. The name "googol" was invented by a child (Dr. Kasner's nine-year-old nephew) who was asked to think up a name for a very big number, namely, 1 with a hundred zeros after it. He was very certain that this number was not infinite, and therefore equally certain that it had to have a name. At the same time that he suggested "googol" he gave a name for a still larger number: "Googolplex." A googolplex is much larger than a googol, but is still finite, as the inventor of the name was quick to point out. > > This quotation was taken from the article "New Names for Old" found in The World of Mathematics (1956) by Newman. The article is identified as an excerpt from Mathematics and the Imagination. > > The Merriam Webster dictionaries identify the nine-year-old nephew as Milton Sirotta, "b. about 1929." A Wikipedia article gives the dates for Milton Sirotta as (c. 1911-1980), and says he coined the term around 1920. The German Wikipedia gives Milton's dates as (1929 to ? about 1980). The Social Security death index shows one person named Milton Sirotta. He was born on Mar. 8, 1911, and died in Feb. 1981, with his last residence in Mount Vernon, N. Y. > > Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress on the second syllable. Thus it is pronounced differently from the name of the Internet company Google, although the Internet company name is a misspelling of googol. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press > Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Dec 29 12:28:37 2008 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:28:37 -0000 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? Message-ID: My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. On the back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 is an advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 13:00:51 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:00:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jaywalker" and "Jaywalking" Message-ID: jaywalker (OED 1917) 1911 _Washington Post_ 7 May M12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers. jaywalking (OED 1919) 1909 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 7 Apr. 12 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) CHAUFFEURS assert with some bitterness that their "joy riding" would harm nobody if there were not so much jay walking. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:08:24 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: "tot mom" Message-ID: The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The phrase also appears in the writing on the screen. Is that phrase new? Is it patterned after "baby mama"? A Google search brings up 27,000 instances, but many of those exemplify the unasked-for phrase "tot's mom"--and a great portion of the remainder specifically refer to the Anthony case. --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:10:59 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:10:59 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812290500.mBSDnaFE006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know I'm coming into this a few days late, but ... >> i found the "that" a bit jarring, and would have preferred a zero >> relative: >> "With the market and everything being the way it is ..." >> a google search (with dupes removed) pulled up: >> {"being the way that it is"} 270 hits >> {"being the way it is"} 845 hits Data from the 100 million word TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time), comparing: [nn*] that he/she [p*] [v*] +that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' [nn*] he/she [v*] -that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' You can see a sustained decrease in the use of "that" (vs. zero) with relative clauses during the past 40 years (see http://www.americancorpus.org/charts/relatives.xls). It looks like the use of 'that' in relatives has decreased about 50% during this time. Best, Mark Davies ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:18:50 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:18:50 -0500 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <4958C275.5328.1FC8B4B4@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: At 12:28 PM +0000 12/29/08, Michael Quinion wrote: >My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. On the >back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 is an >advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". > Or maybe they were offering special rates to heavy drinkers... LH >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org >Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 15:57:24 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: "tot mom" In-Reply-To: <20081229100824.OSA97795@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:08 AM -0500 12/29/08, Charles Doyle wrote: >The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to >the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable >murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The >phrase also appears in the writing on the screen. > >Is that phrase new? Is it patterned after "baby mama"? A Google >search brings up 27,000 instances, but many of those exemplify the >unasked-for phrase "tot's mom"--and a great portion of the remainder >specifically refer to the Anthony case. > I think this is one of those "deictic compounds" Pamela Downing characterized in her 1977 Language article, where the meaning would be clear to (and only to) those following the story. (She cites "pumpkin bus", referring to the school bus that was designated as the one that would be stopping by the pumpkin patch on the way back from a field trip, or something like that.) My favorite example is "Ferrari Woman" in a headline in the S. F. Chronicle that turns out to refer to the disposition of the effects of a woman whose will stipulated that she be buried in her Ferrari. "Tot mom" would thus refer specifically to this particular woman for as long as the case remains in the consciousness of those following the Caylee case. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 16:23:20 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:23:20 -0800 Subject: "tot mom" In-Reply-To: <200812291557.mBTCLwYw010885@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "tot mom" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:08 AM -0500 12/29/08, Charles Doyle wrote: >> The newscaster/commentator Nancy Grace on CNN regularly refers to >> the mother (and principal suspect) in the disappearance and probable >> murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony in Florida as the "tot mom." The >> phrase also appears in the writing on the screen... >> >> > I think this is one of those "deictic compounds" Pamela Downing > characterized in her 1977 Language article, where the meaning would > be clear to (and only to) those following the story... discussion of such compounds on Language Log (with several wonderful examples in the comments): GP, 8/4/08: Canoe wives and unnatural semantic relations: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=437 arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:02:00 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:02:00 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" Message-ID: The OED's first use of _snuff_, attrib., as in _snuff film_ or _snuff movie_ is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: "The first recorded use of the term is in a 1971 book by Ed Sanders, The Family: The Story of Charles Manson's Dune Buggy Attack Battalion, in which it is alleged that The Manson Family might have been involved in the making of such a film." Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:22:13 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:22:13 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: Mark Davies replied: Begin forwarded message: > From: Mark Davies > Date: December 29, 2008 8:15:07 AM PST > To: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: RE: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > The decrease since the 1970s makes sense -- others have noted a > shift towards zero with both relatives and as verbal complementizers > (I know (that) Fred will get here today) in both contemporary > British and American English. The increase in "that" (or, decrease > in zero) during the preceding 30-40 years is somewhat more > problematic. Prescriptive pressure, which died out / lessened in the > 1960s/1970s? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:23:34 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:23:34 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: my response to Mark Davies: Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 29, 2008 9:18:03 AM PST > To: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > > On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Mark Davies wrote: > >> The decrease since the 1970s makes sense -- others have noted a >> shift towards zero with both relatives and as verbal >> complementizers ... in both contemporary British and American >> English. > > this just says that usage changed for complementizer "that" as well > as relativizer "that". it doesn't say why the usage should have > changed. of course, sometimes things just change. in this case, i > suspect that the growing preference for zero over "that" is part of > a larger pattern of change in favor of more coversational and > informal variants (seen also in the increase of "that" vs. "which" > in restrictive relatives, which has been occurring even without > pressure from copyeditors). > > it *is* significant that others have noted the shift towards zero. > otherwise, we might have suspected that the shift was specific to > the editorial practices of Time magazine. > >> The increase in "that" (or, decrease in zero) during the preceding >> 30-40 years is somewhat more problematic. Prescriptive pressure, >> which died out / lessened in the 1960s/1970s? > > > well, actually the decline apparently started in the 1980s. but the > effect of lessening prescriptive pressure could have been delayed > some. > > but the levels of "that" were low in the 1920s-1940s (lower than in > the 2000s, in fact). is there any reason to think that prescriptive > pressure increased in the 1950s-1970s? > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > practices at the magazine. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:20:35 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:20:35 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: meant for the list, but mistakenly sent only to Mark Davies. i'm forwarding it now, and will forward further exchanges with him on the subject. Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold Zwicky > Date: December 29, 2008 8:11:02 AM PST > To: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives > > > On Dec 29, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Mark Davies wrote: > >> ... Data from the 100 million word TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time >> ), comparing: >> >> [nn*] that he/she [p*] [v*] +that e.g. '(the) car that he/she >> bought' >> [nn*] he/she [v*] -that e.g. '(the) car that he/she bought' >> >> You can see a sustained decrease in the use of "that" (vs. zero) >> with relative clauses during the past 40 years (see http://www.americancorpus.org/charts/relatives.xls) >> . It looks like the use of 'that' in relatives has decreased about >> 50% during this time. > > about 40% decrease between the 1970s and the 2000s. following an > approximately 60% *increase* between the 1930s and the 1970s. i > have no idea what to make of either of these developments. > > arnold > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 18:53:28 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:53:28 -0500 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812291823.mBTBpAJD009073@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > but the levels of "that" were low in the 1920s-1940s (lower than in > > the 2000s, in fact). is there any reason to think that prescriptive > > pressure increased in the 1950s-1970s? > > > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > practices at the magazine. My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the Time data to journalistic usage more generally, since the magazine has been so stylistically idiosyncratic over the years. Most notorious is their "inverted syntax," which was finally phased out in 2007: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/business/media/12time.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 19:10:49 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:10:49 -0800 Subject: Ancient eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <200812291228.mBTCLwVe010885@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 4:28 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > My son gave me a big collection of old SF magazines for Christmas. > On the > back cover of issue No 5 of Nebula Science Fiction for Autumn 1953 > is an > advert: "A Full-proof Insurance Policy". now added to the "fullproof" entry in the ecdb. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 19:41:31 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:41:31 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: embedded question Message-ID: Spoken by a twenty-ish Latin woman: "In the boxing world, everybody _knows who's Belinda_, but nobody _knows who's Rashim_." Most people used to say, "... knows who Belinda is." However, I've heard the "... knows who's Belinda" type spoken by so many people of every race, creed, color, country of origin, and sexual orientation that the standard "... knows who Belinda is" is beginning to sound like pedantry occasionally used by academics. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:01:58 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:01:58 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: eggcorn or tip of the slung? Message-ID: Man-On-The-Street questioner to thirty-ish, black female speaker: He: "What's your opinion on this case?" She: "Well, I think that the landlord should be _reliable_ to pay the car-owner." -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:17:10 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:17:10 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a literary question, not a linguistic one. ------Original Message------ From: Joel S. Berson Sender: ADS-L To: ADS-L ReplyTo: ADS-L Subject: [ADS-L] Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Sent: Dec 28, 2008 11:49 AM From someone on the eighteenth-century email list. Note that he thinks of itinerant preachers. >From: James Rovira > >One possibility, if you focus on these lines: > ><Accepting the Gospels, accepting him that was crucified, knowing > assuredly that he is divine, >To the mass kneeling or the puritan's prayer rising, or sitting > patiently in a pew, >Ranting and frothing in my insane crisis, or waiting dead-like till > my spirit arouses me, >Looking forth on pavement and land, or outside of pavement and land, >Belonging to the winders of the circuit of circuits.>> > >He initially seems to be describing a variety of religious >practices/groups in America, which makes sense of earlier lines in >which the poet's faith encloses all other faiths, ancient and >modern. The subsequent lines quoted below describe modern faiths >while previous lines (referring to oracles) describe ancient ones: > >"mass kneeling" -- could refer to a "mass of people" or to Catholic services. >"or the puritan's prayer rising" >"or sitting patiently in a pew" >"ranting and frothing...." could refer to Quakers and Shakers or >similar groups. > >"or" in the previous lines probably refers simultaneously to >different postures of worship within a modern prayer service -- >kneeling, praying, sitting, ranting, waiting dead-like (in today's >Pentecostal circles this is called being "slain in the spirit," as >you may recall seeing people collapse on stage during a televised >evangelist's service) -- and to different religious groups >themselves: Catholics, Puritans, and earlier forms of >Charismatic/Pentecostal groups. > >The next line's "looking forth on pavement and land" is the action >of "his spirit" after it has aroused him. But pavement implies >travel, so the word "circuit" in the next line could refer to the >itinerary of traveling preachers -- his spirit is looking forth on >pavement and land for the experience these preachers or similar >figures bring. Since the word "winders" is plural it probably >doesn't refer to a divine clock winder of sorts, which as presented >by mechanical philosophers would be singular -- the "winders" are >probably the priests mentioned in the first of your quoted >lines. The priests "wind the circuit" (motivate the activity?) of >"circuits" (traveling preachers' itineraries). > >A possibility, anyway. > >Jim R ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Dec 29 20:26:07 2008 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:26:07 +0000 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives Message-ID: Well, how about: > I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add, "the human drive for invariance in speech is ..." ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky To: ronbutters at aol.com Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives Sent: Dec 27, 2008 10:33 AM On Dec 27, 2008, at 6:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with everything (that) Paul says here, but I would add that > [sic] the human drive for invariance in speech is ... no "sic" about it. the first, optional, "that" is a relativizer; the second "that" is a complementizer. like relativizer "that", complementizer "that" alternates with zero, but it has its own set of favoring and disfavoring factors. Fowler says it "should not be omitted after verbs agree, assert, assume, aver, calculate, conceive, hold, learn, maintain, reckon, state, suggest, or when the clause is appended to a noun like result, view, belief". Fowler's list of verbs requiring "that" can be extended considerably; manner-of-speaking verbs (like "whimper") generally do so, and so does the verb "add". there's a certain amount of variation here, but i find omission of "that" with "add" to be distinctly odd. many handbooks caution against omitting "that" when the verb could be construed (temporarily) as having the following NP as its object. Copperud: ?the tendency to omit that is too strong?often omitted when it should have been used,? causing confusion, as in ?He added the proposed freeway could follow the existing route?; should be ?added that? to avoid the interpretation that he built the freeway (375) ..... note that Copperud's example has "added" as the verb. though, in fact, omitting "that" after "add" is odd even when no temporary misconstrual is possible, as in "She added I/we should leave at noon". arnold Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 20:33:26 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:33:26 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: embedded question In-Reply-To: <82745f630812291141q25ca9806of776bcb660936359@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:41 PM -0500 12/29/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Spoken by a twenty-ish Latin woman: > >"In the boxing world, everybody _knows who's Belinda_, but nobody >_knows who's Rashim_." > > >Most people used to say, "... knows who Belinda is." However, I've >heard the "... knows who's Belinda" type spoken by so many people of >every race, creed, color, country of origin, and sexual orientation >that the standard "... knows who Belinda is" is beginning to sound >like pedantry occasionally used by academics. > >-Wilson Well, as long as it's not "...knows who Belinda's". That's beyond even my pale. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Dec 29 20:41:03 2008 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:41:03 -0500 Subject: More 2008 WOTY nominations added Message-ID: I've posted David Barnhart's 2008 word-of-the-year nominations to the American Dialect Society web site: http://americandialect.org/woty2008/ Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 29 20:54:15 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:54:15 -0500 Subject: SOTA alert Message-ID: from the paper of record (NYT today, C11) Book review by Janet Maslin of Carol O'Connell's _Bone by Bone_: Dramatically "Bone by Bone" is defuse...It has no real central character. [Since I assume both words are in the relevant dictionary, there's no Cupertino effect to blame] LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Dec 29 21:22:11 2008 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:22:11 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" In-Reply-To: <200812291803.mBTCLwea026036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS was there, thirty-seven years ago: 1971 Ed Sanders _The Family_ (N.Y.: E. P. Dutton) 232: I, I, I knew, I know, I only know about one snuff movie. Sanders is quoting somebody else, BTW. JL --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > From: Shapiro, Fred > Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:02 PM > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > Subject: Antedating of "Snuff Film / Movie" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The OED's first use of _snuff_, attrib., as in _snuff > film_ or _snuff movie_ is dated 1975. According to > Wikipedia: > > "The first recorded use of the term is in a 1971 book > by Ed Sanders, The Family: The Story of Charles Manson's > Dune Buggy Attack Battalion, in which it is alleged that The > Manson Family might have been involved in the making of such > a film." > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro > Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF > QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University > Press > Yale Law School > ISBN 0300107986 > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Dec 29 21:43:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:43:53 -0500 Subject: An RCN ad: "For TV _how_ you like it ..." Message-ID: Whatever happened to "For TV _like_ you like it ..."? "Winstons taste good, _how_ a cigarette should"? Shakespeare's "_How_ You Like It"? And then there's that weird change in the BE of Saint Louis, my beloved - three syllables - hometown, as exemplified by the hiphop song title, "I'm Hurr, I'm Thurr, I'm Erriwhurr." Even "air" is pronounced "urr." Now, if only I could hurrr a black St. Louisan say, "To err is human ..." It reminds me of that SF story, "Shall We Have A Little Talk?" The language changes even as you learn it, though the real language changes somewhat more slowly than did the fictional - or should I be hip and use "fictive"? - language in the story. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Dec 29 22:54:25 2008 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:54:25 -0500 Subject: Defuse: not quite an eggcorn? Message-ID: In the print edition of the NYTimes today, in her book review Janet Maslin, or her word processor, wrote "Dramatically, 'Bone by Bone' is defuse; it would have benefited from a Mallory surrogate." (Mallory is described by Maslin as the author's "female Dirty Harry of detective fiction.") This appears as "diffuse" in the on-line version. My version of MS Word suggests "defuse" as the second correction to "difuse" -- but it suggests "diffuse" as the first. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Dec 29 22:49:00 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:49:00 -0500 Subject: WOTY preview (Canwest) Message-ID: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1123897 Looking forward to the goat rodeo... --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 29 22:59:38 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:59:38 -0800 Subject: SOTA alert In-Reply-To: <200812292054.mBTBkSg6008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: SOTA alert > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > from the paper of record (NYT today, C11) > > Book review by Janet Maslin of Carol O'Connell's _Bone by Bone_: > > Dramatically "Bone by Bone" is defuse...It has no real central > character. > > > [Since I assume both words are in the relevant dictionary, there's no > Cupertino effect to blame] hmm. the opposite substitution is already in the ecdb: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/33/diffuse/ the Maslin example looks like an ordinary mis-spelling to me, but i could be wrong. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 00:34:25 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812270417.mBQBw5I6028362@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All true, from your view of dialect. But WRT standard English, I'm an *observer* and not a speaker. My annoying experience throughout approximately six decades of life speaking and listening is that the presence of a BE speaker has no effect upon English as Northern white people choose to speak it, even when I have attempted to inject my intuitions into a conversation. At M.I.T., white students didn't give a second's thought to "correcting" my intuitions _on the spot_ when I had been asked for them by a fellow-student who was not to be a native speaker of English. It used to ass me to death. Damn! You'd think that at least they'd have waited till later, taken the foreign students aside and explained to them, outside of my presence, that the sE intuitions of the colored are untrustworthy by definition, since those people know the standard dialect only from books and not from immersion in some variety of it from birth. OTOH, the same white colleagues have no problem accepting my intuitions WRT sE when they are writing their own syntax papers. I wonder why it is that it's white people that are known for going postal and not black people. As long as the average white linguist displays this hopefully-unconscious attitude of superiority of speech habits, it will *never* be the case that there will never be an observer effect when a white, Northern linguist deals with speakers of other dialects, regardless of the race of the non-standard speaker. Writing and saying that the fact that a given dialect is standard only through mere historical accident is not the same as believing it. FWIW, it's my experience that Southern speakers, regardless of race, tend to give up their attempts to speak "properly," when they speak to black people. I.e., a friend of mine, a native of Cambridge, MA, whose father was also a native of Cambridge, but whose mother was from some North Carolina backwater, assured me that her mother didn't speak her native Southern dialect *except* when I was present, even though I, being the only black person on the set, was using my best attempt at Northern sE and studiously avoiding any use of blackisms and Southernisms. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold & everyone, > > About perceptions vs, reality where this type of variation is > concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Having worked in the > variationist model for thirty years, I can remember countless times > where I spotted a certain salient variant of a vbriable that I didn't > expect, or was radically different from my own or other Standard > systems, and when I finally counted the numbers up, it turned out to > be a minor, sometimes even sporadic, variant--just one that stuck out > in MY reckoning. And informants would have the same problem, too. I > can remember looking at medial /t/-preglottalization and replacement > by glottal stop in Wooler, Northumberland, a place where, when I did > the study, this type of glottalization was actually pretty rare. To > an American, those {?t]'s really stick out, and I heard a few of > them. I expected to see the normal distribution of a vernacular > variant, more men than women, more working class than middle/upper > class, all the things early Labovian studies showed. And my > informants seemed to agree wity that, too. One teacher, locally born > and bred, even commented on this variant. Well, first, no group used > it more than 15% of the time. Second, every class and gender group > used it. But they sure avoided it in formal speech!! My explanation, > in 1970's terms, was that since it's established in NEWCASTLE > vernacular, and everybody there knows what Geordie sounds like (in > general) and what the use of Geordie vernacular variants means > socially, they still respond to it as IF it were their own > vernacular, and as IF it were common. The perceptions don't match > reality. (And yes, it's more complex than I thought- I hadn't known > that [?] varies differently from [?t], and wasn't really looking at > all the phonological environmental constraints). > > And that's phonology. Perceptions as to syntactic variation can be > even thornier, since the notion of Standard vs, non-Standard is so > knocked into us in our schooling, and sometimes, by our families. > When you add complex constraints as you describe for 0 vs. that into > the mix, it's a wonder how we can make any intelligent statements at > all about the distribution of these features without really "doing > the math" and doing a full study of the phenomenon. Remember, too, > how long it took sociolinguistds who came up through the Labovian > model to find a way to elicit syntactic variants in a way that would > be pretty close to what happens without an observer. > > > Paul Johnston > On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Dec 25, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: zero vs. "that" relatives >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------- >>> >>> FWIW, I prefer the form with "that." I have the *impression" that >>> "that" is used more often in BE than in sE. I'm willing to admit that >>> I could be wrong about that. Maybe it's just that *I* prefer the >>> "that" forms. But my preference for "that," IMO, is based on my >>> underlying BE grammar. And, given that more sE speakers than BE >>> speakers exist and are more likely than BE speakers to be posting to >>> the Web, IAC, that there should be fewer examples with "that" than >>> without "that" is to be expected. >> >> i wasn't claiming that i prefer the zero variant (when it's available) >> *in general*, only that i prefer it in the particular construction i >> posted about. >> >> the facts about "that" vs. zero in relative clauses are very complex. >> to get some appreciation of this complexity, check out some papers by >> florian jaeger and various collaborators, available at: >> >> http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/people/fjaeger/ >> >> (i'll quote from several of these below). >> >> to start with, >> >> "For most speakers of Standard American English, only finite, >> restrictive, non pied-piped, non- >> extraposed, non-subject-extracted RCs [NSRCs, for short] can occur >> without optional that." >> >> and then: >> >> "A variety of factors seem to influence the choice between that and no >> relativizer in these cases. These include the length of the NSRC, >> properties of the NSRC subject (such as pronominality, person, and >> number), and the presence of disfluencies nearby." >> >> "... lexical choices in an NP containing an NSRC can [also] influence >> whether a relativizer is used. ... particular choices of determiner, >> noun, or prenominal adjective may correlate with exceptionally high or >> exceptionally low rates of relativizers." >> >> there's more, but this should be enough to show that introspecting >> about your *general* preferences for "that" or zero is just hopeless. >> someone's impressions about their general practices are not any kind >> of evidence about their actual practices (and, even more strongly, >> someone's impressions about the practices of an entire group of >> speakers are not any kind of evidence about this group's actual >> practices). >> >> everyone's inclination is to think about what they'd do in a few cases >> and then generalize from that. thinking about specific examples can >> be a useful exercise, but the generalization is utterly worthless >> unless it's tested -- in this case, tested by examining people's >> actual practices (and that's a non-trivial piece of research). it >> doesn't really make any difference what you *think* you (or other >> people) do. >> >> it seems likely to me that individual speakers/writers might have >> different overall preferences for "that" vs. zero (all other factors >> being held constant), and that groups might also differ in this way. >> i don't know of any research on the question, though. i don't even >> know what i do myself. >> >> arnold >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 04:08:33 2008 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:08:33 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812290709.mBSDnaKQ006966@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, but ISTM that that'd be (at least understood as) an emphatic version of "gob", which justifies the 2ndary stress. Mark Mandel On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Fred Shapiro notes: > > "Merriam-Webster dictionaries pronounce googol with a secondary stress > on the second syllable." > > FWIW, there's a word in BE that I would spell _googob_, which likewise > has secondary stress on the second syllable and which has the meaning, > "a very large number of count nouns or a very large amount of a mass > noun." A googob of a near-coincidence. > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 04:28:49 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:28:49 -0500 Subject: More on "Googol" and "Googolplex" In-Reply-To: <200812281142.mBSBdY8L001396@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mathematical lore is likely based on Kasner's own account, which is not surprising--and, of course, Gardner and other popularizers of mathematics gave essentially an identical account to Kasner's own. However, there may be some recent documents that should shed more light on this. I don't have the exact date, but, within the last three years, Sirotta's and Kasner's family members tried to sue Google for either copyright or trademark violations (likely the former). The case was, of course, dismissed, but documentation should still exist. The easiest way to get the information on this would be from Google and its lawyers. Court records are public, but the trouble is finding the court where they were filed. VS-) PS: It appears that the action was initially filed in connection with Google IPO. I am still looking for details. Interestingly, some newspaper accounts contribute to confusion over the origin of "googol". Several turned Sirotta into Kasner's uncle, instead of nephew, reversing the coinage as well. Some backdated the origin to 1955--the year of Kasner's death. Much of this came out in 2004/5, as Google was getting ready for IPO. Also note that "googol" is not the only antecedent for Google--the company used to be obsessed with using pairs of eyes in its logos and symbols (and trademarks, of course). Last year, some European publications printed entire posters with 40+ different versions of Google eyes. Mileage may vary. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Dec 30 05:58:34 2008 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:58:34 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: > From: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Date: December 29, 2008 12:17:10 PM PST > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > > Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a > literary question, not a linguistic one. I think I mentioned in my original query that as best I and my correspondent can tell the Whitman scholarship is uninformative on this one -- at least, lots of people quote the line but nobody seems to explicate it. It's clearly a linguistic question what the literal meaning of the phrase is in context -- for example, does 'wind' here mean "traverse," "bend," or "wrap"?; what's the relevant sense of 'circuit'?; was this a familiar collocation?, etc. It's more of a literary question what figurative or suggestive meaning Whitman was after, though I don't know that one can cut this distinction so cleanly. Anyway, I've forwarded the numerous useful comments and suggestions to my friend, who was extremely grateful for the help. Geoff Nunberg > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 13:58:30 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:58:30 -0500 Subject: Just in!! Message-ID: For what it's worth, I just saw in the Poughkeepsie Journal the following: _Irab_ for "improperly rejected absentee ballot." This is Michigan's answer to Florida's chad. Regards, and Happy New Year to you all. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Dec 30 14:39:09 2008 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:39:09 -0800 Subject: zero vs. "that" relatives In-Reply-To: <200812300500.mBTBkSxY008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > All true, from your view of dialect. But WRT standard English, I'm an > *observer* and not a speaker. My annoying experience throughout > approximately six decades of life speaking and listening is that the > presence of a BE speaker has no effect upon English as Northern white > people choose to speak it, even when I have attempted to inject my > intuitions into a conversation. At M.I.T., white students didn't give > a second's thought to "correcting" my intuitions _on the spot_ when I > had been asked for them by a fellow-student who was not to be a native > speaker of English. It used to ass me to death. Damn! You'd think that > at least they'd have waited till later, taken the foreign students > aside and explained to them, outside of my presence, that the sE > intuitions of the colored are untrustworthy by definition, since those > people know the standard dialect only from books and not from > immersion in some variety of it from birth. Amen! but from a speaker of Southern White English, Wilson. I've had syntacticians reject my intuitions about English (within the past few days, in fact) because i don't have native intuitions about English. My born to English-speaking parents in the US self still hasn't gotten over how bizarre that is. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Tue Dec 30 14:40:14 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:40:14 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) In-Reply-To: <200812300500.mBTBkSxY008832@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been in DIGEST mode over the holiday break, hence the delay in responding: > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other than Time, to > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > practices at the magazine. >> My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the Time data to >> journalistic usage more generally, On the other hand .... During the past year, I've had my students use the TIME Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time) as part of papers they've written on 40-50 different syntactic / stylistic shifts in American English from the 1920s-2000s. These have covered a wide variety of topics -- modals (shall/will, will/going to, can/may), preposition stranding, several phenomena with verbal complementation, aspects of morphology (gender, plurals, +/-regular verbal forms), get vs be passives, progressives, subjunctive, etc etc etc (see list at http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/elang325/project.asp). The data from the corpus has been quite useful. In most cases, it models very nicely what others have already found with smaller, "boutique" corpora. In addition, though, I mentioned the following yesterday in a private email (which I didn't post directly to ADS-L): The TIME corpus is more or less a stopgap, until a larger, more diverse, more balanced corpus of historical American English is available. I'm currently working on a 300 million word "Corpus of Historical American English" (COHA), which will complement the nearly 400 million word Corpus of Contemporary American English (COCA): http://www.americancorpus.org . COHA will cover approximately 1810-present, and it will be balanced (for each decade, and therefore overall as well) between fiction, popular magazines, newspapers, and other non-fiction. Once completed, this will allow us to examine -- for the first time -- how specific changes have spread over time through different genres in American English. Thus the TIME corpus -- while quite useful for many things -- is more or less a stopgap for the 1900s, until COHA is completed. ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 14:50:58 2008 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:50:58 -0500 Subject: Merrill-Lynch econo-speak: ringfence, premia Message-ID: from a Global Economics report for 11.26.08: *ringfences* and *premia *[pl. premium]. *The government becomes riskier * As the government ringfences a greater share of the private sector, it is transferring risk to itself. Government risk premia ?whether in CDS markets or in yield curves? are likely to rise everywhere, particularly in countries with large budget deficits and high starting levels of government debt (see Table 6 and FX theme 2). I have never seen either of these. The first seems a British import but the second may just be finance professor jargon. A search for *ringfences*finds a Financial Times headline from September 15 2008: "Japan ringfences assets" by Michiyo Nakamoto in Tokyo. A blog* *named* *London Banker for September 12 gives an explanation of the term: "The principle of using local assets for local recovery is known as the 'ring fence' ? the idea being that insolvency drops an invisible 'ring fence' around any valuable assets at the borders to meet claims arising within the borders. No country is more assiduous in weaving the ring fence than the United States of America. It is a very successful strategy for US creditors. US creditors of failed international banks tend to recover disproportionately relative to creditors anywhere else. The ring fence contains all these choicest assets for US creditors, and all the international creditors are forced to pick among the dross of foreign assets to eke out a recovery, only receiving any residual US assets remaining after US creditors get 100 percent recovery." A Stanford Univ webpage contains the phrase "risk premia": http://www.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/mia/prb/mia_prb2.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 17:44:26 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: Just in!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OOPS Regards in spite of my oops, David Barnhart at highlands.com -----Original Message----- From: kevin mcgowan [mailto:clunis at umich.edu] Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:20 AM To: David Barnhart Subject: Re: Just in!! it really says "Michigan" and not "Minnesota"? How odd. I guess all of us fly-over 'M' states look the same even from upstate NY. :) k On Dec 30, 2008, at 8:58 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: Just in!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > For what it's worth, I just saw in the Poughkeepsie Journal the > following: > > > > _Irab_ for "improperly rejected absentee ballot." This is > Michigan's answer > to Florida's chad. > > > > Regards, and Happy New Year to you all. > > > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > !DSPAM:495a29e9150291493215846! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 17:50:09 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:50:09 -0600 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812301440.mBUBoUtI010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Davies > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:40 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Davies > Subject: Re: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I've been in DIGEST mode over the holiday break, hence the > delay in responding: > > > > here it would be nice to have data from a source other > than Time, to > > > find out whether the change was the result of changing editorial > > > practices at the magazine. > > >> My feelings exactly. It might be hard to extrapolate the > Time data to > >> journalistic usage more generally, > > On the other hand .... > > During the past year, I've had my students use the TIME > Corpus (http://corpus.byu.edu/time) as part of papers they've > written on 40-50 different syntactic / stylistic shifts in > American English from the 1920s-2000s. These have covered a > wide variety of topics -- modals (shall/will, will/going to, > can/may), preposition stranding, several phenomena with > verbal complementation, aspects of morphology (gender, > plurals, +/-regular verbal forms), get vs be passives, > progressives, subjunctive, etc etc etc (see list at > http://davies-linguistics.byu.edu/elang325/project.asp). The > data from the corpus has been quite useful. In most cases, it > models very nicely what others have already found with > smaller, "boutique" corpora. > > In addition, though, I mentioned the following yesterday in a > private email (which I didn't post directly to ADS-L): > > The TIME corpus is more or less a stopgap, until a larger, > more diverse, more balanced corpus of historical American > English is available. I'm currently working on a 300 million > word "Corpus of Historical American English" (COHA), which > will complement the nearly 400 million word Corpus of > Contemporary American English (COCA): http://www.americancorpus.org . > COHA will cover approximately 1810-present, and it will be > balanced (for each decade, and therefore overall as well) > between fiction, popular magazines, newspapers, and other > non-fiction. Once completed, this will allow us to examine -- > for the first time -- how specific changes have spread over > time through different genres in American English. Thus the > TIME corpus -- while quite useful for many things -- is more > or less a stopgap for the 1900s, until COHA is completed. > > ============================================ > Mark Davies > Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics > Brigham Young University > (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 > Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu > > ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** > ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** > ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** > ============================================ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Dec 30 17:53:03 2008 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:53:03 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered Message-ID: Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with oxymoron pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with em PHA sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word film-as one or two syllables. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:04:11 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:04:11 -0800 Subject: pronunciation encountered In-Reply-To: <200812301753.mBUBoU3w010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: pronunciation encountered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her > family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with > oxymoron > pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn > > Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with > em PHA > sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word > film-as one or two syllables. new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 18:18:53 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:18:53 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" Message-ID: Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: "She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ haRASSment!" -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:31:51 2008 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:31:51 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered ("oxymoron") Message-ID: And the normal pronunciation makes it easy for young students to perceive and enjoy the etymology--the cognacity with "moron"! --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:04:11 -0800 >From: Arnold Zwicky >> >On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: >>> >> Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with oxymoron pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >> >> Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with em PHA sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word film-as one or two syllables. > >new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Dec 30 18:46:52 2008 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812301749.mBUBoU3i010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > > Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? 100 million. -- Randy Alexander Jilin City, China My Manchu studies blog: http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU Tue Dec 30 18:50:18 2008 From: Mark_Davies at BYU.EDU (Mark Davies) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:50:18 -0700 Subject: Zero vs. "that" relatives (and TIME Corpus) In-Reply-To: <200812301749.mBUBoU3i010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Just curious, how many words is the TIME corpus? 100+ million words, 1920s-2000s. Of course there are larger *text archives* (Google Books, NY Times, other newspapers, etc). But all of these have very limited architectures and interfaces: -- find the first occurrence of a word -- show all 18,489 occurrences of a word (one ... by ... one) -- etc etc None of those text archives can really do things like: -- (easily) see the frequency over time (decade by decade, year by year) -- use part of speech or lemmatization (thus pretty limited for syntactic change) -- wildcards; see all matching forms (thus pretty limited for morphological change) -- collocates (thus pretty limited for semantic change) -- use the frequency in different historical periods as part of the query (e.g. collocates of Word X in Time Y vs Time Z) The TIME Corpus can do all of these. Of course, it is just one source in just one genre -- hence the need for something like the Corpus of Historical American English. ============================================ Mark Davies Professor of (Corpus) Linguistics Brigham Young University (phone) 801-422-9168 / (fax) 801-422-0906 Web: davies-linguistics.byu.edu ** Corpus design and use // Linguistic databases ** ** Historical linguistics // Language variation ** ** English, Spanish, and Portuguese ** ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:09:34 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:09:34 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered In-Reply-To: <314249A6-3073-4966-83FE-36F9131E1F2C@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0800 12/30/08, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:53 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: David Barnhart >>Subject: pronunciation encountered >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her >>family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with >>oxymoron >>pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >> >>Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with >>em PHA >>sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word >>film-as one or two syllables. > >new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check >the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. > >arnold > Beat me to the punch--I was sure this would turn out to be an officially received secondary pronunciation, based on other Greek words, but evidently not. (Does anyone know how it would be stressed in Greek?) Maybe David's relatives were thinking of Cimarron. Actually, it appears that there is someone named (I hope pseudonymously) "Ox Cimarron" who's quite active on the yahoo.com Q and A site. That would correspond to the above pronunciation of "oxymoron" except for a secondarily stressed /a/ on the final syllable as opposed to the destressed schwa David reports. If I were going to stress "oxymoron" on the antepenult, that's how I'd do it. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:27:28 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:27:28 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" In-Reply-To: <82745f630812301018x680e617q6329d0a00931e96e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1:18 PM -0500 12/30/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: > >"She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ >haRASSment!" Not so weird with that stress on the ass, which allows the /h/ to drop, as in "an historical accident", "an hysterical reaction", as opposed to *"a history". What would be really strange is "an HARassment". (Wilson is alluding here, I take it, to our recent thread on "an hero" & friends.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 30 19:30:27 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:30:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Disco" In-Reply-To: <20081228172312.GA20910@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the correction, Jesse. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: Jesse Sheidlower [jester at panix.com] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:23 PM To: Shapiro, Fred Cc: American Dialect Society Subject: Re: Antedating of "Disco" On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 07:50:30PM -0500, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > OED's first use of _disco_ referring to a kind of music is dated 1975. According to Wikipedia: > > The term disco was first used in print in an article by Vince Aletti in the September 13, 1973 edition of Rolling Stone magazine titled "Discotheque Rock '72: Paaaaarty!" > This is not correct. The referenced article only used the compound "disco sound"; OED already has an 1965 quot. for "disco beat", if we're accepting compounds. I've edited Wikipedia to reflect this. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Dec 30 21:36:56 2008 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:36:56 -0600 Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 In-Reply-To: <200812281938.mBSDwamP007417@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A few days ago Sam Clements independently located the May 5, 1936 attestation of golf "mulligan," but it turns out that Paul Dickson got there first (sorry, Sam). Below my signoff is the first part of William Safire's "On Language" column; see the last paragraph. Btw, with regard to the etymology reported by Safire, he correctly comments: 'A nice tale, but with ?no contemporary attestation?.' G. Cohen * * * * NY Times March 23, 2008 On Language Mulligan Primary By WILLIAM SAFIRE Or a firehouse caucus? Democrats are in a mulligan stew. That thick, rich soup is a hodgepodge of leftover vegetables, potatoes, onions, stale bread and scraps of meat, spiced with the views of assorted pollsters, walkie-talking heads and superdelegates. An early appearance of the Irish-sounding word can be found in The Yukon Midnight Sun in Alaska in 1904: ?All the roadhouses served big Christmas dinners and most of them made a mulligan.? You don?t need that information, or to know that mulligan must not be confused with the curry-flavored mulligatawny soup of East Indian origin. But to stay politically au courant, you do need to know the other meaning of the mysteriously eponymous noun mulligan, which is now being bandied about as an adjective in the slipstream media. Early this month, Robert Siegel, a host of NPR?s ?All Things Considered,? asked the governor of Florida, Charles Crist (a Republican who prefers the lovably informal ?Charlie,? but I resist appellative manipulation), about ?what some are calling the redo ? the mulligan primary.? Next day, on CNN, Bill Schneider opined about ?what I call mulligan primaries or contests of some sort ? that is, do-overs . . . ? The Washington Post promptly demanded to know: ?Should the presidential primary season include mulligans?? Who is Mulligan, and what is he that all media swains commend him? Nancy Stulack, archivist at the U.S. Golf Association, said that the story most widely accepted focuses on a gentleman named David Mulligan who played golf at a club outside Montreal in the 1920s. As he teed off, his first swing sliced the ball into the nearby woods; refusing to accept that, Mulligan apologized to his golfing partners, took out a fresh golf ball and teed off again. His friends understood his frustration and allowed what later became known as a mulligan, or ?extra stroke in a friendly game, not counted on the scorecard.? Mulligan thus achieved fame in eponymy in the company of the hated Captain Boycott, the beloved earl of Sandwich and the daring Amelia Bloomer. A nice tale, but with ?no contemporary attestation?; the serious slangsleuth Paul Dickson reports the earliest print citation to be an A.P. dispatch of May 5, 1936, crediting the use of mulligan to Marvin McIntyre, an aide to F.D.R., which the reporter defined as ?links-ology for the second shot employed after the previously dubbed shot.? The word was popularized in the coverage of President Eisenhower?s golf outings. On 12/28/08 1:37 PM, "Sam Clements" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: antedating of golf "Mulligan" 1936 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > Ben Zimmer and I have been playing tag with this one for some years. I = > found 1938(Henry McLemore, the sports writer) and Ben found that = > McLemore had used it in 1937. > > Using Newspaperarchive, _Big Springs(TX) Daily Herald_ May 5 1936 4/5 > > A story about FDR's press secretary, Marvin McIntyre, who seems to have = > been an avid golfer(from searching around papers of the time). > > "Another McIntyre-ism is the use of the 'mulligan'---links-ology for = > a second shot employed after a previously dubbed shot." > > Sam Clements > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 21:57:46 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:57:46 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812271658.mBRBkZQH005584@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish American Princess below is only a library visit away from becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously antedates the OED: "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 "Geoff Miller (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ > 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the > following, probably authentic occurrence: > > > Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 > 1969-70 > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > Fred Shapiro > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 30 22:04:20 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:04:20 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D065EDD80@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Not exactly; the OED doesn't have a lemma for "Jewish American Princess". It's under _princess_, where there's a 1966 for "Jewish princess" but nothing at all for the fuller form. The 1970 LAT cite doesn't show "JAP". Also, three days ago Fred did acknowledge this very quotation: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0807C&L=ADS-L&P=R4424&I=-3 Also, four years ago Jerome Foster mentioned the Iota Alpha Pi story, in his version as being inspired by "Jewish American Princess" rather than the other way around: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ADS-L&P=R982&I=-3 Jesse Sheidlower OED On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 03:57:46PM -0600, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish American Princess below is only a library visit away from becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously antedates the OED: > > "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 > "Geoff Miller (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ > > 'Jewish American Princess.' Google Books gives the > > following, probably authentic occurrence: > > > > > > Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 > > 1969-70 > > > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Dec 30 22:10:11 2008 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:10:11 -0600 Subject: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200812302204.mBUBoAON025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Note to self: 1. Check archives 2. Bang head against wall 3. Repeat > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 4:04 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: Antedating of "JAP" (UNCLASSIFIED) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Not exactly; the OED doesn't have a lemma for "Jewish > American Princess". It's under _princess_, where there's a > 1966 for "Jewish princess" but nothing at all for the fuller > form. The 1970 LAT cite doesn't show "JAP". > > Also, three days ago Fred did acknowledge this very quotation: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0807C&L=ADS- > L&P=R4424&I=-3 > > Also, four years ago Jerome Foster mentioned the Iota Alpha > Pi story, in his version as being inspired by "Jewish > American Princess" rather than the other way around: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401C&L=ADS- > L&P=R982&I=-3 > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 03:57:46PM -0600, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > While recognizing that Fred's probable cite of JAP/Jewish > American Princess below is only a library visit away from > becoming definite, I offer the following, which unambiguously > antedates the OED: > > > > "Party-Goer Pinch Hits for Gossip Columnist" BURT PRELUTSKY _Los > > Angeles Times_ ; Aug 9, 1970; pg. N15 col 3 "Geoff Miller > (of Los Angeles magazine) and Barbara ("I'm a Jewish American > Princess") Selcer are telling everyone they're just friends." > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred > > > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:55 AM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > > > Subject: Antedating of "JAP" > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > OED and HDAS have 1972 as their first use for _J.A.P._ 'Jewish > > > American Princess.' Google Books gives the following, probably > > > authentic occurrence: > > > > > > > > > Transatlantic Review? - Page 69 > > > 1969-70 > > > > > > To my Jap - my Jewish American Princess. > > > > > > > > > I have not, however, verified this in the original. > > > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at STNY.RR.COM Tue Dec 30 22:27:44 2008 From: cats22 at STNY.RR.COM (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:27:44 -0500 Subject: pronunciation encountered Message-ID: I heard an odd pronunciation today, on NPR: casualties as caz UL ities. The report was from Gaza, by someone who clearly wasn't a native speaker of English. dh Prepared and sent with Chaos Software's Intellect mail client. Intellect's contacts and appointments managers also are cool. > >>>Last evening I had dinner at a relative's house. Never met her or her >>>family before. They all seemed surprised at my unfamiliarity with >>>oxymoron >>>pronounced as . ok ZIM uhr uhn >>> >>>Anyone ever heard this? It must be a spelling pronunciation, with >>>em PHA >>>sis on the wrong sy LAH bull. I didn't hear anyone there say the word >>>film-as one or two syllables. >> >>new to me. but i had a crisis of self-confidence and went to check >>the OED. both pronunciations have primary accent on the third syllable. >> >>arnold >> >Beat me to the punch--I was sure this would turn out to be an >officially received secondary pronunciation, based on other Greek >words, but evidently not. (Does anyone know how it would be stressed >in Greek?) Maybe David's relatives were thinking of Cimarron. >Actually, it appears that there is someone named (I hope >pseudonymously) "Ox Cimarron" who's quite active on the yahoo.com Q >and A site. That would correspond to the above pronunciation of >"oxymoron" except for a secondarily stressed /a/ on the final >syllable as opposed to the destressed schwa David reports. If I were >going to stress "oxymoron" on the antepenult, that's how I'd do it. >LH >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:01:52 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:01:52 -0800 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' Message-ID: heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Dec 31 00:34:51 2008 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:34:51 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310002.mBUBoAUT025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there > are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working > construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. > > there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, > missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, > inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the > appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the like. "Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* construction/retail." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 01:59:07 2008 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:59:07 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <1230683691.495abe2be8470@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 7:34 PM -0500 12/30/08, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there >> are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working >> construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. >> >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > >There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the >like. > >"Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* >construction/retail." > Then there are the constructions (no pun intended) with gerundive objects: "work shipping" "work shipping and receiving" or places "work the mail room" or times "work nights/the night shift" although the latter "objects" are more likely adverbial rather than nominal. In fact none of these behave wholly like nouns; for one thing they don't readily passivize: "{Construction/Shipping/Retail/The night shift} has long been worked in this town for meager pay" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 31 02:04:51 2008 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:04:51 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310002.mBUBlGVI024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, > missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, > inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the > appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. - There are, I think, other examples of "work N". To my mind right now come "work sales", "work retail", and "work landscaping". I don't know the relative frequencies but I'm sure I've heard all of these in the wild. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:03:01 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:03:01 -0500 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310034.mBUBlGW0024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Work construction" is a "standard" BE construction . However, it appears to be unique. I can't recall ever having heard "work [some other kind of job] and nothing that I've been able to make up, except for "work a good, decent, etc., job," with the meaning, "have a job that's good in some way": pays well, has regular hours, plenty of goof-off time, easy-going bossman, or whatever, feels real. Another phrase with a single meaning is "run on the road": work for Amtrak in a job that entails working on a moving train: Pullman porter, conductor, bartender, engineer, cook, dining-car waiter, etc., as opposed to working in the railroad yards as an oiler, brakeman, cleaner, or in some other such maintenance job. Back in the day, "running on the road" was restricted to Pullman porter, dining-car waiter, or cook. All other jobs were for whites only. Once I knew a black man passing for white - he looked liked Sen. Joseph McCarthy's separated-at-birth twin - who worked as a dining-car steward, roughly equivalent to maitre d', on the old Katy - for MKT or Missouri-Kansas-Texas Raiload - Line. The town of Katy, Texas, is named for this now-defunct railroad. One of my uncles made a career of running on the road as a dining-car waiter. By the time that he retired, he had a permanent crease across his thighs from 55 years of leaning against tables while serving patrons. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "work construction" 'do construction work' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> heard this in a tv ad, though it was certainly familiar -- and there >> are very large numbers of relevant hits for "work/works/worked/working >> construction". not in the OED, so far as i can tell. >> >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > > There's also "work retail". Plenty of Googlehits for "I worked retail" and the > like. > > "Work construction/retail" strikes me as elliptical for "work *in* > construction/retail." > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:10:57 2008 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:10:57 EST Subject: "winders of the circuit of circuits" Message-ID: If my brief query seemed critical in any way, I apologize. That was emphatically not my intent. Having spent my entire career housed in an English Department, and having taught Whitman's poetry many times (though I am in no way a Whitman expert), I assumed that the lines in a question had been discussed, glossed, and interpreted by literary scholars numerous times. I still find it surprising if the scholarship is silent on the subject. The question of interpretatation is of course "linguistic" in the trivial senses that Geoff mentions, but literary scholars regularly check dictionaries and, if they are worth their salt, they make themselves pretty familiar with "familiar collocations" in the poet's works. They certainly do not confine their work to "figurative or suggestive meanings" (which, moreover, are not outside the proper domain of linguistics). Moreover, the responses that Geoff's inquiry received were not dependent upon sophisticated linguistic analysis. Except for (on the whole) failing to refer to established literary scholarship, the respondents did exactly what a bright junior English major should do: examined their own linguistic intuitions, drew upon knowledge of 19th century American culture, referred to what they knew about Whitman's own life, and compared the passage to other passages by the same poet. And made some guesses. I was not complaining that the query was inappropriate for ADS-L (and I do not think that it was inappropriate). I personally found it to be an interesting question, and some of the answers struck me as interesting and maybe even useful to the person who made the inquiry. I was simply (1) expressing my surprise that the standard literary scholarship contributed nothing to the attempts at interpreting the lines--and (2) observing that, though linguistics is supposedly somewhere near the core of the purpose of ADS-L, very little of a linguistic nature was brought to bear on the topic in the responses--because, it seems to me, linguistics has very little to offer the topic (except in the elementary ways that Geoff references). In a message dated 12/30/08 12:58:51 AM, nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > > From: ronbutters at AOL.COM > > Date: December 29, 2008 12:17:10 PM PST > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: "winders of the circuit of circuits" > > > > > > Has nobody looked to see what Whitman scholarship says? This is a > > literary question, not a linguistic one. > > I think I mentioned in my original query that as best I and my > correspondent can tell the Whitman scholarship is uninformative on > this one -- at least, lots of people quote the line but nobody seems > to explicate it. It's clearly a linguistic question what the literal > meaning of the phrase is in context -- for example, does 'wind' here > mean "traverse," "bend," or "wrap"?; what's the relevant sense of > 'circuit'?; was this a familiar collocation?, etc. It's more of a > literary question what figurative or suggestive meaning Whitman was > after, though I don't know that one can cut this distinction so cleanly. > > Anyway, I've forwarded the numerous useful comments and suggestions to > my friend, who was extremely grateful for the help. > > Geoff Nunberg > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************** One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 04:55:44 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:55:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" In-Reply-To: <200812301927.mBUBoAGL025058@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, I missed "an hero'," fortunately. FWIW, "hArassment" seems to be the preferred pronunciation amongst the colored. But sound-change is rarely predictable. There are, undoubtedly, some number of BE speakers who prefer "haRASSment. By coincidence, I happen not to be acquainted with them. Usually, it's possible to come up with a how, but the why is usually mysterious. For, example, for some speakers, the claim that _an_ before a syllable with unstressed /hV/ is trivially explained by a rule of h-Drop under just those circumstances is less than convincing, since it's not an easy thing to persuade all informants that the presence of the /h/ is a mere illusion. In the present instance, for example, I say "_an_ historian" simply because I consciously choose to and not because of any unconscious dropping of the /h/, just as I choose to pronounce "your" as [jor] and "you're" as [jur], instead of the other way around, as is common among Northern-white speakers. -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on The Judges: "_an_ harassment" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1:18 PM -0500 12/30/08, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Forty-ish, Northern, working-class, white female speaker: >> >>"She's just haRASSing me, your honor! This *small-claims* case is _an_ >>haRASSment!" > > Not so weird with that stress on the ass, which allows the /h/ to > drop, as in "an historical accident", "an hysterical reaction", as > opposed to *"a history". What would be really strange is "an > HARassment". (Wilson is alluding here, I take it, to our recent > thread on "an hero" & friends.) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 06:41:53 2008 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:41:53 -0500 Subject: economics Message-ID: This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the past week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics and a tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 15:07:09 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 07:07:09 -0800 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <200812310642.mBUBoUIS025067@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 10:41 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: economics > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the > past > week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back > to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The > latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics > and a > tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. it looks like this might be on the way to becoming a affix, cutting loose from the original "economics". at the moment, these still have the feel of portmanteau words for me (with a tinge of ostentatious creativity and playfulness), but things could change. The element - dar seems to have gone pretty far down this path (though it's not yet in Michael Quinion's Ologies and Isms, where it could keep company with -((e)t)eria and -gate and others); the original was "gaydar", a portmanteau of "gay" and "radar", but then all sorts of other elements replaced the "gay" of "gaydar", as in "Jewdar". there are links to three Language Log postings on -dar in my recent posting on "manecdotes" and "brobituaries": http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/manecdotes-and-brobituaries/ arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Dec 31 17:48:29 2008 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:48:29 -0800 Subject: brownie point (1952) In-Reply-To: <4A3E5332-5C8E-41D9-9444-B00F47CA9E9D@stanford.edu> Message-ID: It's not the oldest published use of the term, which is from 1951, but it's the oldest that I've found that unambiguously uses it in the context of the Brownie Girl Scout organization. "Brownie Troop Gives Party for Mothers," Modesto-Bee and News-Herald (newspaperarchive.com), 17 June 1952, p. 6. "Mrs. Rose presented a Brownie bracelet to Linda Hickle, first prize winner in a Brownie point contest." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:04:55 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:04:55 -0500 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" Message-ID: Judge Mathis: "So, besides everything else, you think that [your older brother] dislikes your wife." Late thirty-ish, white male speaker: "Yes, sir. He thinks that she took me away from him at a young age. He's been _grudge-holding against_ my wife for years!" -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 18:11:22 2008 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: economics In-Reply-To: <200812310642.mBUBlGao024960@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it's pure chance that these new words use an actual bound root as their second element with an etymologically relevant meaning. Herb On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Victor wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor > Subject: economics > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This doesn't quite rival the snow words that have sprung up in the past > week, but ESPN earlier today had a Wendy's and a Mazda commercial back > to back. The former's theme was "3conomics". The > latter's--"mazdanomics". It seems, with popularity of Freakonomics and a > tip of the hat to Reaganomics, "nomics" are popping up everywhere. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:38:57 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:38:57 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 Message-ID: Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's Law" in its now well-known sense in 1953. Scientific American, September 1952 "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. 179f. p.181 col. 1 At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go wrong, it will.' p.182 col. 3 The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with Murphy's law. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:40:48 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:40:48 -0500 Subject: header should read 1952 was Re: [ADS-L] antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 In-Reply-To: <20081231133857.5sn0fyhpw8c0wc84@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Stephen Goranson : > Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's > Law" in its > now well-known sense in 1953. > > Scientific American, September 1952 > "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine > telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. > 179f. > > p.181 col. 1 > At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called > 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go > wrong, it will.' > > p.182 col. 3 > The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. > Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with > Murphy's law. > > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 18:49:20 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:49:20 -0800 Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" In-Reply-To: <200812311805.mBVBmfUj006266@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on The Judges: "grudge-hold against" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Judge Mathis: > > "So, besides everything else, you think that [your older brother] > dislikes your wife." > > Late thirty-ish, white male speaker: > > "Yes, sir. He thinks that she took me away from him at a young age. > He's been _grudge-holding against_ my wife for years!" i think this is a progressive, using the present participle of a verb "grudge-hold", a back-formation from the "synthetic compound" noun "grudge-holding". i've found one example in the base form: Indeed they have helped some (Bill not enough as he continues to grudge-hold and fail to utter superlatives about Barack Obama). www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=16501&view=prin there are also adjectival uses of the present participle: But what is interesting to me is that I'm not angry, mad, upset or even grudge holding against anyone. theprincessandjohnsy.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html I have trouble believing that they would be so grudge-holding against Chris Dodd . I'll be I could search the archive of some of the people who have been ... letters.salon.com/4b3ed2bb0a5ccf26de474d2c208ab539/author/index864.html and a modest number of examples of the synthetic compound noun, for instance: So Snape's continued grudge holding against James was ludicrous under the circumstances. James never used dark magic on him, ... www.leakylounge.com/Poll-Snape-s-Love-Lily-t62828.html&pid=1721051&st=60 I see no advantage to grudge holding against workers who only do what they know, but I do see value in contributing to making sure those who weren't part ... www.m-f-d.org/topic/19.000410.4uth.php arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:03:03 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:03:03 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1952 Message-ID: Another extremely important discovery by Stephen. This takes us one step closer to disproving the popular anecdote about "Murphy" being someone involved with a 1949 test at Edwards Air Force Base. The earlier the documentation, the less likely that the term and the proverb originated in 1949 and diffused widely within a very short time. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating of "Murphy's Law" Sept. 1953 Previously Fred Shapiro noted the use of the collocation "Murphy's Law" in its now well-known sense in 1953. Scientific American, September 1952 "The Amateur Scientist: About home-made cloud chambers and the fine telescope of a Portugese navy officer," Conducted by Albert G. Ingalls, pp. 179f. p.181 col. 1 At this point enters the well-known 'first law of research'--sometimes called 'Murphy's law.' The law may be stated roughly as follows: 'If anything can go wrong, it will.' p.182 col. 3 The department has built several successful diffusion chambers based on Dr. Cornog's description, but in every case only after some sharp tussles with Murphy's law. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:23:50 2008 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:23:50 -0800 Subject: "work construction" 'do construction work' In-Reply-To: <200812310205.mBUBoUJw010366@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "work construction" 'do construction work' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> there are plenty of instances of "do N work" (N = volunteer, >> missionary, upholstery, kitchen, plumbing, charity, voiceover, >> inpatient, ...). but none in the "work N" pattern with the >> appropriate meaning, it seems. so, a very specific idiom. > - > > There are, I think, other examples of "work N". To my mind right now > come "work sales", "work retail", and "work landscaping". I don't know > the relative frequencies but I'm sure I've heard all of these in the > wild. yes, indeed. here's one example of each. more can be googled up. so it looks like there's a small idiom pattern "work N", and people pick up specific Ns in the pattern one by one. I worked sales for this company long enough to put thousands of miles on my vehicle running sales leads. www.judysbook.com/cities/houston-tx/BtoB~Builders-and-Contractors-/ 5403/Concrete_Forever.htm When I worked retail I used to bring a second pair of shoes to change into ... I worked retail many moons ago. www.wisebread.com/retail-job-lessons-learning I worked landscaping as a teen, and it's been a personal hobby the few times I' ve been fortunate enough to have a yard (none lately). www.city-data.com/forum/huntsville-madison-decatur-area/475196-n-alabama-landscaping.html > > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:25:45 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:25:45 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D7822F7798CACF@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and Comparative Psychology. A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 p.204 As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:24:14 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:24:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Sod's Law" Message-ID: "Sod's Law" is the British counterpart to "Murphy's Law." OED's first use for the former is dated 1970. Google Books shows what is probably a legitimate 1963 occurrence of "Sod's Law," in Shipbuilding & shipping record; a journal of shipbuilding, ... v.102 1963 Jul-Dec, pages 95 and 135. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 31 19:31:09 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:31:09 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231142545.6kf572x2twskgw00@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's the month date from? Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: > Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and > Comparative > Psychology. > A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 > p.204 > As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second > law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong > it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:34:33 2008 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:34:33 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231142545.6kf572x2twskgw00@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Even better! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and Comparative Psychology. A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 p.204 As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of the second law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can go wrong it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Dec 31 19:37:08 2008 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:37:08 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231193109.GA21104@panix.com> Message-ID: From the paper copy (of the journal; her book was 1953), above the title: "$7.00 per volume Single numbers $4.00 QUARTERLY: Two volumes per year [sic] May, 1951 Volume 43, Second Half (Founded in 1925 by Carl Murchison)" Stephen Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > Stephen, > > This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's > the month date from? > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and >> Comparative >> Psychology. >> A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 >> p.204 >> As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of >> the second >> law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can >> go wrong >> it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. >> >> Stephen Goranson >> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 31 19:40:15 2008 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:40:15 -0500 Subject: antedating of "Murphy's law" May, 1951 In-Reply-To: <20081231143708.8ojb64tt0k0w0c88@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks very much. Jesse Sheidlower OED On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:37:08PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: > From the paper copy (of the journal; her book was 1953), above the title: > "$7.00 per volume Single numbers $4.00 > QUARTERLY: Two volumes per year [sic] > May, 1951 > Volume 43, Second Half > (Founded in 1925 by Carl Murchison)" > > Stephen > > Quoting Jesse Sheidlower : > >> Stephen, >> >> This is from May 1951? The book was published in 1951, but where's >> the month date from? >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> >> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 02:25:45PM -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>> Genetic Psychology Monographs: Child Behavior, Animal Behavior, and >>> Comparative >>> Psychology. >>> A Psychological Study of Physical Scientists, By Anne Roe, pp. 121-235 >>> p.204 >>> As for himself he realized that this was the inexorable working of >>> the second >>> law of the thermodynamics which stated Murphy's law "If anything can >>> go wrong >>> it will." I always liked Murphy's law, I was told that by an architect. >>> >>> Stephen Goranson >>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Dec 31 19:54:12 2008 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:54:12 -0500 Subject: A note on black naming practices Message-ID: For all that I know, this may still be a custom. But, IAC, my mother - 97 on 9 January - has informed me that *way* back in the day, it was often customary for black children to be named after *foreign* dignitaries. E.g., Cudn Pope Harrold was actually "Pope Leo [XIII] Harrold" and Cudn Hallie Prothrow. was actually "Hail Victoria Prothrow." Probably everyone here of any level of maturity is aware of the once-extreme popularity of "Roosevelt," still alive in the name of Rosevelt[sic] Colvin of the New England Patriots. However, the most extreme instance that I know of was my Saint Louis buddy, Frank Willis, actually "Franklin Delano Roosevelt Willis." BTW, is everyone aware that the name of Delano, CA, The Raisin Capital of the World, is pronounced "deLAY no" and not "DELLa no"? -Wilson ??? All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From listcatcher at REXSTOCKLIN.COM Wed Dec 31 22:18:39 2008 From: listcatcher at REXSTOCKLIN.COM (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:18:39 -0500 Subject: WOTY - now fortified with Grant Barrett! Message-ID: As I am unaware of an appropriate blog or some such vehicle to leave a comment, I'd like to expand on Grant's entry into the WOTY noms: >age-doping: The falsification of records to show that an athlete >meets participation requirements for a sporting event. This issue >arose with Chinese gymnasts in the Beijing Summer Olympics. I'd like to say a similar phenomenon occurs when, say, creating one's resume'. That is, the intentional deletion of jobs & other year-specific data that date the potential applicant as "too old" (I suppose, going the other direction, manufacturing jobs & education data is a form of youth-oriented age-doping. But neither the missus nor I have ANY experience in such an endeavor as we have done plenty of the former) I'd also LOVE to see a countering term for TBTF, perhaps TBTB (as in too big to be, a concept in which one considers an enterprise that shouldn't exist due to its insouciant, inefficient and/or consumptive existence) Just a shot from the cheap seats... Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org