twoth
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Fri Jan 25 18:57:48 UTC 2008
Thanks, again, Larry! I really appreciate your efforts to hip me to
the haps. :-)
-Wilson
On 1/24/08, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: twoth
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 3:50 PM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >Thanks, Larry. Strange. I often say, "I've [V-ed (NP)] for the
> >I-don't-know-how-many-eth time." But I can't ask, "For the
> >how-many-eth time has this been done?" Though I may begin to, now that
> >I've thought of it. It seems grammatical enough for government work.
> >It'll freak out most people that I know.
> >
> >Unfortunately, the French examples aren't much help for me. I've never
> >seen anything like those, before. Most foreign languages that I know I
> >can read only in linguistics. Once past the words borrowed directly
> >from Latin, Greek, and English, I get lost. But I appreciate the
> >effort.
> >
>
> They work like this [accents have been removed]:
>
> c'est ton combienieme match?
> it's your how-manyth match?
>
> Si le cinema est le 7eme art le cirque est le combientieme?
> if the cinema is the 7th art the circus is the how-manyth?
> [i.e. ...whichth art is the circus?
> one answer is: "it's the first lol"; another: "the eighth"]
>
> This one also from Yahoo! questions:
>
> Le combientieme soir couchez-vous en général?
> the how-manyth night do you go to bed in general
>
> to which the "Best answer, as chosen by the voters" is
> je viole pas, mais j'espère toujours y arriver sans aller si loin, lol
> 'I don't rape, but I always hope to get there without going too long, lol'
> Those French!
>
> LH
>
>
> >On 1/24/08, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the
> >>mail header -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: twoth
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> At 11:21 AM -0500 1/24/08, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >> >So, in Esperanto, one asks "how many-th?"? Why? How is the answer
> >> >constructed? I don't get it. Am I being stupid, here? Or do i merely
> >> >lack sufficient background - any - in Esperanto?
> >>
> >> It would presumably be the same as "combien(t)ieme" in the French
> >> examples below: that's the 9th subject, he was the 42nd president,
> >> etc. etc. Presumably also you can get the same kind of embedded
> >> ordinal question in Esp-o as in the French example ("for the
> >> I-don't-know-how-manyth time").
> >>
> >> LH
> >>
> >> >
> >> >And, WRT "ki," you mean "Romance," not "I-E," right?
> >> >
> >> >-Wilson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 1/24/08, Mark Mandel <thnidu at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >>-----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> Subject: Re: twoth
> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> The Esp-o word needs no specific
> >>analogical etymology. There's a whole grid
> >> >> of function words, generalizing from patterns like English
> >> >> "here/there/where", "__/then/when", "__/that/what":
> >> >>
> >> >> - begin with 'ki' for relative or interrogative (definite I-E bias
> >> >> there), 'ti' for demonstrative, 'i' for
> >>indefinite, 'neni' for negative,
> >> >> 'c^i' for universal (c-circumflex, [tS], English "ch")
> >> >> - add 'u' for individual, 'e' for place, 'a' for quality, 'om' for
> >> >> quantity, ... nine in all
> >> >>
> >> >> So kiom 'how many/much', nenie 'nowhere',
> >>c^iu 'everyone, every one' (+/-
> >> >> animate), tia 'that kind (of), such' and so on. And since you can
> >> >> productively add the appropriate POS ending to any stem, kiom + the
> >> >> adjective ending -a -> kioma 'how many-th'.
> >> >>
> >> >> m a m
> >> >>
> >> >> On Jan 24, 2008 9:47 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > At 9:28 AM -0500 1/24/08, Mark Mandel wrote:
> >> >> > >How common is it in natural languages
> >>to have an ordinal interrogative
> >> >> > word?
> >> >> > >Esperanto has "kioma", derived by
> >>adjectivizing "kiom" 'how much/many"?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >m a m
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Presumably this arose by analogy with French and
> > > >> > other Romance languages (the main source for
> >> >> > Esperanto). I note 106 google hits for
> >> >> > _combieni=E8me_ with this meaning and derivation,
> >> >> > as in
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ca fait le combienieme sujet sur le genre?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Mettons, que pour la j'sais pas combieni=E8me fois,
> >> >> > j'ai utilis=E9 le bouton "=E9diter ce message" au
> >> >> > lieu de "r=E9pondre =E0 ce message"
> >> >> >
> > > >> > c'est ton combienieme match?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And the "less logical" but "more correct" form,
> >> >> > _combienti=E8me_ (with epenthetic -t-) gets 2250
> >> >> > hits (e.g. "Bill Clinton est le combienti=E8me
> >> >> > pr=E9sident des =C9tats-Unis?" and an appearance in
> >> >> > this blog on the topic:
> >> >> > http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-418730.html
> >> >> > (Respondents to this blog contribute
> >> >> > interrogative ordinals in Swedish, German,
> >> >> > Finnish, Turkish, Tagalog, etc.)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > LH
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >On Jan 17, 2008 8:48 PM, Bill Le May <blemay0 at mchsi.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > >> > From: American Dialect Society
> >>[mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> >> >> > Behalf
> >> >> > >> > Of Joel S. Berson
> >> >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:42 AM
> >> >> > >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> >> > >> > Subject: Re: twoth
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> > Thank heaven this is not likely to
> >>lead to oneth and thirdth. (If =
> >> >> I
> >> >> > >> > come across speakers of these, I won't stand too close.)
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> In childhood I remember saying "what-th". Wondering the day of the
> >> >> > month,
> >> >> > >> I
> >> >> > >> would ask a parent "what day is it"
> >>and inevitably get an answer like
> >> >> > >> "Wednesday". Frustrated, I'd reply,
> >>"No, I mean today is that what-th
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > >> January?"
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> >> > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> > >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.6/1229 - Release Date:
> >> >> > 1/17/2008
> >> >> > >> 11:12 AM
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> >-----
> >> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >> >
> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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