Is it Irish to be Cuil?

[Wilson Gray]

Sounds reasonable to me. You also note that:

"Cockneys have said dis, dat, dese, dem for a long time."

This is also still true of an amazing (to me) number of black
Americans. I'm being forced to see it not as stereotypical, but as
*still* quite typical.

-Wilson


On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Paul A Johnston, Jr.
<paul.johnston at wmich.edu> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Paul A Johnston, Jr." <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This may be an Ulster thing, but aren't there dialects who represent single slender /n/ as a plain old alveolar nasal, as opposed to the broad /n/, which would be a dental one?  Hone would work, then.
>
> I've heard the dentalization of /t d n/ that many New Yorkers have (me too) blamed on a number of immigrant languages, but one of them is Irish--that they came over having replaced English /t d n/ with broad rather than slender (presumably palatalized for them) realizations.  Such speakers would probably merge they/day, thin/tin as well.  The Italians and others from language backgrounds with dentals would have presumably reinforced this tendency.  (Where pronouns with /D-/ are concerned, this might be older in NYC; Cockneys have said dis, dat, dese, dem for a long time, and a lot of Londoners came to NY and NJ in the early 18c.)
>
> Paul Johnstin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:22 pm
> Subject: Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
>> ------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>>
>> _Cúil_ yields [kul'], with "oo" followed by a "slender" or
>> palatalized/l/. "Arse" / "ass" is _cóin_ or _cón_. I've seen
>> bumper stickers here
>> in the Boston area reading "Póg mo chóin," roughly, "Pogue ma [m@]
>> hone," the original name of the Irish rockers, "The Pogues," till
>> someone narked the meaning to the English authorities.
>>
>> I don't think that "hone" demonstrates a preference for /n/ over
>> palatalized /ñ/, because there's no obvious way to spell word-final
>> /ñ/ in English. Since Boston bumper stickers have _-in_, I assume
>> that[ñ] is the preferred pronunciation among ordinary speakers.
>> Dictionaries seem not to have a preference. They tend to show "X, also
>> Y," etc.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
>> wrote:> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---
>> --------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject:      Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------------
>> >
>> > At 7/30/2008 12:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>> >>At 11:57 AM -0400 7/30/08, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>> >>>At 7/30/2008 11:39 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>If they want it pronounced like "cool" they will do well to
>> use a different
>> >>>>brand name in   the Spanish-speaking countries
>> >>>>(and even the French might see
>> >>>>it as an indecent pun).
>> >>
>> >>Well, in French _cul_ is 'ass' (with the fundament, not donkey
>> >>reference) or 'arse' if you prefer,
>> >
>> > And an on-line Irish dictionary tells me "cúil"
>> > is "rear (adj,
>> > n)"!  http://www.englishirishdictionary.com/
>> > Someone should put this out on the Web.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> >>but I'm not sure the pun really
>> >>comes up since the pronunciation is /ky/ (with a front-rounded vowel
>> >>and no final consonant).  In any case, _cul_ appears elsewhere with
>> >>the obscene meaning bleached out, as in _cul de sac_ 'dead end',
>> lit.>>'bag's ass'.  I guess _culo_ would be more problematic, but
>> Romance>>speakers must be used to English speakers saying _cool_,
>> after all.
>> >>
>> >>LH
>> >>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>> complaint to
>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> -----
>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
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--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
 -Sam'l Clemens

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