velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Sat Mar 7 13:24:35 UTC 2009

Tom,

Your intuition is just as wrong as the medieval intuition that the
earth was flat and that the sun went around it.  And you can see
what's wrong with your intuition by looking at any phonetics text.

Herb

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Herb=2C Great.  The letter "l" is alveolar not velar.  But I would still in=
> tuit that the tongue is closer to the velar region when saying a long e ~ee=
>  than a short oo ~oo ("leek" vs "look").
>
> =20
>
> Regards truespel phonetic spelling development=2C the point of articulation=
>  was not taken into account during it's development=2C merely the prevelent=
>  English spelling forms for sounds.  That's why=2C for instance=2C the soun=
> d of "ou" in "out" is foespeld ~ou rather than ~au (which is German not Eng=
> lish).
>
> =20
>
> The truespel notation spelling choices are backed up by two studies=2C true=
> spel books 1 and 4.  Book 1 looks into phoneme spelling frequency for a lis=
> t of 57 k words.  Book 4 looks into phoneme frequency of the 5k most common=
>  words weighted by how often they appear in text.  There are some big diffe=
> rences.  If you like reading spreadsheet after spreadsheet=2C these books a=
> re for you.
>
> =20
>
> Truespel has tremendous advantages over IPA for application to English lear=
> ners as I've mentioned before.
>
> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
> see truespel.com
>
> =20
>> Date: Fri=2C 6 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500
>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>=20
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
> ------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
>>=20
>> No=2C Tom=2C we don't. No one has claimed that English /l/ is not
>> alveolar. The question is what's happening in the back of the oral
>> cavity at the same time. In post-vocalic /l/=2C the tongue rises to /U/
>> position. There is xray photographic evidence to show that opening
>> between velum and back of tongue in /U/ is narrower than that in /i/.
>> With /i/ the narrowing is at the palate=2C not at the velum. You were
>> roughly right about the primary articulation of /l/ and the place of
>> articulation of /k/. Otherwise your facts are wrong. What I don't
>> understand is=2C your commitment to your spelling system
>> notwithstanding=2C how you can remain so determinedly uninformed about
>> the basic facts of English phonetics.
>>=20
>> Herb
>>=20
>> On Fri=2C Mar 6=2C 2009 at 5:59 PM=2C Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com=
>> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------=
> --------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
>> >
>> > Herb=3D2C
>> >
>> > =3D20
>> >
>> > We seem to be getting there. Personally=3D2C I can't say an "l" without=
>  putt=3D
>> > ing my tongue to the top of my gums. That makes "l" alveolar not velar.=
>  Wh=3D
>> > en I say the word "clock" the tongue for "c" goes to the back roof of t=
> he m=3D
>> > outh=3D2C velar region=3D2C then for the "l" sound opens wide for "l" w=
> hile the=3D
>> > tip of the tongue is alveolar. This is before the vowel "o" ~aa. After =
> a =3D
>> > vowel is no different. Also=3D2C the vowel sound in "put or pull" is fa=
> r mor=3D
>> > e open at the velum than say "ee" is.=3D20
>> >
>> > =3D20
>> >
>> > In summary=3D2C I'd say the velum plays no primary or secondary role in=
>  sayin=3D
>> > g the "l" sound ~l. If anything the tongue is pulled away from the velu=
> m wh=3D
>> > ile being alveolar engaged.
>> >
>> > Tom Zurinskas=3D2C USA - CT20=3D2C TN3=3D2C NJ33=3D2C FL5+=3D20
>> > see truespel.com
>> >
>> > =3D20
>> >> Date: Fri=3D2C 6 Mar 2009 13:49:17 -0500
>> >> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ------
>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ------
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Tom=3D2C
>> >>=3D20
>> >> AmE /l/ before a vowel has the tip of tongue on the alveolar ridge and
>> >> the airstream passing around one or both sides of the tongue. This
>> >> articulation also holds for post-vocalic /l/ except that for most AmE
>> >> speakers the back of the tongue is also raised towards the velum=3D2C
>> >> approximately to the position for the vowel /U/ as in "put." The back
>> >> of the tongue does not touch the velum. This gesture when combined
>> >> with a consonant articulation is called "velarization" and is one of
>> >> three common secondary articulations. The other two are
>> >> palatalization and labialization=3D2C which are secondary narrowings a=
> t
>> >> the palate and at the lips respectively.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Herb
>> >>=3D20
>> >> On Fri=3D2C Mar 6=3D2C 2009 at 12:33 PM=3D2C Tom Zurinskas <truespel at h=
> otmail.co=3D
>> > m> wrote:
>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------=
> ---=3D
>> > --------
>> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> >> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > --------
>> >> >
>> >> > For an "l" I've got the tongue hitting the upper gums=3D3D2C not the=
>  vela=3D
>> > r regi=3D3D
>> >> > on. I can't conceive of "l" being called velar.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom Zurinskas=3D3D2C USA - CT20=3D3D2C TN3=3D3D2C NJ33=3D3D2C FL5+=
> =3D3D20
>> >> > see truespel.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > =3D3D20
>> >> >> Date: Fri=3D3D2C 6 Mar 2009 07:45:31 -0500
>> >> >> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > ------
>> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > ------
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> Wilson=3D3D2C
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> You got my point=3D3D2C and thanks for the observation on the vowel
>> >> >> transition before /l/. My students always had problems with
>> >> >> transcribing vowels before final /l/=3D3D2C which usually provided =
> a goo=3D
>> > d
>> >> >> teaching opportunity.
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> Tom=3D3D2C on the other hand=3D3D2C misses the point as usual. Vela=
> rizatio=3D
>> > n=3D3D2C To=3D3D
>> >> > m=3D3D2C
>> >> >> is not velar closure. The back of the tongue is raised but not high
>> >> >> enough to touch the velum. This has a clear acoustic effect on the
>> >> >> consonant=3D3D2C in this case /l/. You have some grasp of the "plac=
> e of
>> >> >> articulation" parameter=3D3D2C at least that it exists=3D3D2C but y=
> ou seem=3D
>> > totall=3D3D
>> >> > y
>> >> >> unaware of the "manner of articulation" parameter. If you won't tak=
> e
>> >> >> a course=3D3D2C at least read a good text on phonetics. I recommend=
>  Pete=3D
>> > r
>> >> >> Ladefoged's A Course in Linguistics=3D3D2C 5th ed. (Thomson Learnin=
> g 200=3D
>> > 5).
>> >> >> The book comes with a CD=3D3D2C so you'll be able to hear what soun=
> ds IP=3D
>> > A
>> >> >> symbols represent. You can also find the content of the CD on line =
> at
>> >> >> http://www.ladefogeds.com/course/contents.html.
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> Herb
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> On Fri=3D3D2C Mar 6=3D3D2C 2009 at 1:13 AM=3D3D2C Wilson Gray <hwgr=
> ay at gmail.=3D
>> > com> wrot=3D3D
>> >> > e:
>> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > --------
>> >> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> > Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > --------
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > My WAG is that it's a feature of her dialect. BE doesn't have the
>> >> >> > style of articulation that makes the pronunciation of=3D3D2C e.g.=
>  "coo=3D
>> > l" by
>> >> >> > (Northern) white speakers sound to us like 'koo-wool" and causes =
> BE
>> >> >> > "cool" to sound like "coo" to white speakers. As a further
>> >> >> > consequence=3D3D2C some BE speakers overcorrect=3D3D2C e.g. "tabl=
> e" to "=3D
>> > taber"
>> >> >> > [tEIbr].
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If I haven't missed your point.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -Wilson
>> >> >> > =3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93
>> >> >> > All say=3D3D2C "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange c=
> ompla=3D
>> > int t=3D3D
>> >> > o
>> >> >> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> >> >> > -----
>> >> >> > -Mark Twain
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Thu=3D3D2C Mar 5=3D3D2C 2009 at 10:06 PM=3D3D2C Herb Stahlke <=
> hfwstahlk=3D
>> > e at gmail.c=3D3D
>> >> > om> wrote:
>> >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > ---------
>> >> >> >> Sender: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 American Dialect Society <ADS-L@=
> LISTSERV.=3D
>> > UGA.EDU>
>> >> >> >> Poster: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.C=
> OM>
>> >> >> >> Subject: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------=
> ---=3D
>> > ---=3D3D
>> >> > ---------
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This afternoon I was listening to a recording of Billy Holiday s=
> ing=3D
>> > ing
>> >> >> >> "Crazy he calls me." =3D3DC2 In the line "The impossible will ta=
> ke a =3D
>> > littl=3D3D
>> >> > e
>> >> >> >> while" she has a schwa before the final /l/ of "impossible" and =
> I
>> >> >> >> don't hear any distinctive velarization of the /l/. =3D3DC2 Ther=
> e are=3D
>> > seve=3D3D
>> >> > ral
>> >> >> >> other post-vocalic /l/s in the song=3D3D2C and they don't show m=
> uch
>> >> >> >> velarization either. =3D3DC2 Post-vocalic /l/ is a consistent pr=
> oblem=3D
>> > for
>> >> >> >> American English singers=3D3D2C since the raising of the back of=
>  the =3D
>> > tongu=3D3D
>> >> > e
>> >> >> >> towards the velum constricts the oral cavity and reduces the ove=
> ral=3D
>> > l
>> >> >> >> resonance of the syllable coda. =3D3DC2 Some voice teachers and =
> chora=3D
>> > l
>> >> >> >> conductors will spend time training their singers to use only a
>> >> >> >> non-velarized /l/=3D3D2C as a number European languages widely r=
> epres=3D
>> > ented
>> >> >> >> in the vocal and choral literature do. =3D3DC2 My CD of Billy is=
> =3D3D2C=3D
>> > of cou=3D3D
>> >> > rse=3D3D2C
>> >> >> >> a copy=3D3D2C and I don't know how good the master was. =3D3DC2 =
> It's en=3D
>> > tirely
>> >> >> >> possible that the fidelity is not good enough to support much in=
>  th=3D
>> > e
>> >> >> >> way of diction comments=3D3D2C but my impression is otherwise. =
> =3D3DC2 =3D
>> > Billy's
>> >> >> >> diction is superb. =3D3DC2 Every word she sings is clear=3D3D2C =
> even on=3D
>> > a copy=3D3D
>> >> > of a
>> >> >> >> copy of a 1949 recording. =3D3DC2 Billy had little or no formal =
> vocal
>> >> >> >> training=3D3D2C so the fact that she doesn't velarize /l/ much=
> =3D3D2C i=3D
>> > f at al=3D3D
>> >> > l=3D3D2C
>> >> >> >> wouldn't be the result of vocal training. =3D3DC2 Is it a featur=
> e of =3D
>> > her
>> >> >> >> variety of AAE? =3D3DC2 Is it idiosyncratic to her distinctive v=
> ocal =3D
>> > style=3D3D
>> >> > ?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Herb
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>=3D3D20
>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
>> >> > Windows Live=3D3D99: Life without walls.
>> >> > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3D3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_expl=
> ore_0=3D
>> > 32009=3D3D
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >> >
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Hotmail=3DAE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.=3D=
> 20
>> > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=3D3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster=
> _03200=3D
>> > 9=3D
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.=20
> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_03200=
> 9=
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org