Query: "I've got your number."
victor steinbok
aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Mar 17 18:25:27 UTC 2010
Although I agree with the distinction, that and $2 won't even get you
on the NYC subway any more. Both can be summarized as "I know who YOU
are!" with all its multiple interpretations. Getting a policeman's
badge number or a hackney license number will tell you not only how to
find the creep (not the creeper) in question, but also, indirectly,
exactly who the person is. It's almost the opposite of prisoner
numbers that were invented not just to simplify bureaucracy, but also
to erase personal identity (much good THAT did!).
I've also spotted house numbers in newspaper ads a bit before 1783,
but after 1765--or there would not have been much need for the Great
Trees moniker--although NY, Philadelphia and European cities may well
have got numbers long before Boston. Well, that's not too far
off--London got house numbers wit the Postage Act of 1765. Wiki
suggests that Paris had numbers on some streets at least since 1512--I
find that easily believable, as most French newspaper ads that I've
seen for the 18th century (admittedly, not a great number, but, at
least in high double digits) had house numbers listed in their street
addresses.
But I remain skeptical that house numbers had anything to do with the
spread of "I['ve] got your number!" The people who would most need to
get that information (aside from store clerks with grocery deliveries)
would have to be potential stalkers and burglars who are least likely
to share the news of their discovery. If some postal service had
"We've got your number" as a slogan before the early 1840s, I might
reconsider. Otherwise, the connection is simply implausible--and not
just in today's terms.
VS-)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> George's understanding of nuance is mine as well, though if the phrase's
> meaning shifted over the years it would be difficult to document it.
>
> FWIW, my feeling is that if early users meant to imply a threat, they'd have
> said "I know your number" rather than "I have/ have got" it.
>
> But it's been so long since I made a threat in the early 19th C. that I may
> be misremembering how I used to do it.
>
> JL
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:45 PM, George Thompson <george.thompson at nyu.edu>wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: Query: "I've got your number."
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> References to House-numbers, from NY City newspapers:
>> FRONT TEETH. ANY Person disposed to part with their FRONT TEETH,
>> may call at No. 28, Maiden-Lane, and shall have a good price for them.
>> Also, some DRY TEETH are wanted.
>> Independent Journal, November 24, 1783, p. 3, col. 3
>> STRAYED, THE 20th instant, from No. 24, Maiden Lane, A Little Brown
>> DOG, about two months old. ***
>> Diary, or Ev Register, January 24, 1794, p. 3, col. 3
>>
>> Subscribers to the Morning Chronicle who change their residence, are
>> requested to sent WRITTEN information to the office, No. 99, Water-street.
>> And it is particularly requested that they will mention also the street and
>> number FROM which they remove.
>> M Chronicle, May 3, 1805, p. 2, col. 4
>>
>> [a stranger, recently moved into the city, advised the corporation
>> to attend to the numbering of city houses; without numbers, the Directory is
>> little use]
>> N-Y E Post, July 18, 1810, p. 3, col. 2
>> [houses in the city should have numbers]
>> Commercial Advertiser, December 26, 1816, p. 2, cols. 2-3
>> and later references, into the 1820s, suggesting that house-numbers weren't
>> always displayed. (And, indeed, there was an article to this effect in the
>> NYTimes of Monday or Tuesday. (I do occasionally read a newspaper not
>> printed 200 ears ago.))
>>
>> References to numbers on hacks and delivery-wagons:
>> [a complaint lodged against a crooked hackney coach driver; asked
>> double fare on a rainy night; refused to take the passenger for the
>> established fare; refused to give his name and license number; fines: $10,
>> $15, $10] The impositions and insolence of Hackney coachmen, are proverbial
>> the world over; but if every person imposed on, or attempted to be imposed
>> on by them, would but do an act of duty, by taking the trouble to enter a
>> complaint against them for a breach of the laws, . . . we should soon see
>> this growing evil checked in New-York.
>> N-Y E Post, August 30, 1815, p. 2, cols. 4 5 (Impositions by cab
>> drivers were also the subject of a recent NYTimes article)
>> There goes a pig; there a buck in a chaise rattles over the curb
>> stones; there gallops a cartman -- take his number, or the mayor will not
>> believe you. . . . ***
>> National Advocate, July 18, 1818, p. 2, cols. 1-2
>>
>> Meanwhile, my own understanding of the expression "I've got your
>> number" is not "I can make trouble for you; I can get back at you" but "I
>> understand what a low, contemptible fellow you are".
>>
>> GAT
>>
>> George A. Thompson
>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:32 am
>> Subject: Re: Query: "I've got your number."
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> > What about house number on your street? "I know where you
>> > live." When did houses begin to be given numbers, in England or the
>> > U.S.? (Not in the first half of the 18th century, in New
>> > England. But by the time of Sherlock Holmes.)
>> >
>> > As for Victor's (5), instead of the witness's number, is this a
>> > document number or case number? In the 17th century court records in
>> > Massachusetts, cases were numbered, presumably for cross-referencing
>> > when there were intervening records (e.g., depositions taken one
>> > session, trial at a later session).
>> >
>> > And of course baseball players who want a former star's old number.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> > At 3/17/2010 01:59 AM, victor steinbok wrote:
>> > >There can be no question that George Thompson is correct in his
>> > >observation--a number of sources from 1841 forward confirm this use of
>> > >"I've got your/his number", and I found references in a variety of US
>> > >and UK sources, including Alcott's novels. The problem is, the same
>> > >expression was used in a number of other contexts.
>> > >
>> > >1) Cabs/Cab drivers (hansoms)--both US and UK
>> > >2) Policemen--UK
>> > >3) Bus (Omnibus) drivers--London
>> > >4) Regiment and other subdivision numbers--UK (from Wellington's
>> > >dispatches to commanders at Waterloo)--when someone relinquished a
>> > >command and was later commissioned again to the same rank, they often
>> > >wanted their old regiments/divisions/etc. back, but someone else might
>> > >have "got his number".
>> > >5) Very common references in British Commissions (Royal/Parliamentary)
>> > >who, while questioning witnesses, would respond to submitted records
>> > >(usually in advance, with copies held by witnesses) with "I've got
>> > >your number." I am not quite sure why it's "number" and not "numbers",
>> > >but that's what's on record. Of course, I did not search for "numbers"
>> > >so such references may be even more numerous. The bottom line is that
>> > >it was the same turn of phrase and used during the same period.
>> > >
>> > >The earliest reference, by far, is (4), Wellington's dispatches in
>> > >1815. This is followed by (1) and (3), from the 1840s forward, (2) and
>> > >(5) from 1870s forward. (I only checked as far as 1890.)
>> > >
>> > >There are a few other, apparently isolated references, such as hotel
>> > >room number that could be observed when the keys are handed over to
>> > >the porter or clerk (still common practice in Europe, but not US),
>> > >and, of course, generic use from 1840s forward.
>> > >
>> > >I have most of the references covered, but don't have time to deal
>> > >with it now. I am not sure how helpful all of this is, as it seems to
>> > >muddy the scene more than resolving it. But one can't go wrong with
>> > >(1), even if it's an indication of a particular SES subclass. And full
>> > >credit to George.
>> > >
>> > >VS-)
>> > >
>> > >On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:31 PM, George Thompson
>> > ><george.thompson at nyu.edu> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > By the 1820s, at least, in NYC, hacks were required to carry a
>> > > clearly readable number, one that would be lit up at night, to help
>> > > identify the hack, whether in traffic cases -- hit & run, &c. -- or
>> > > in complaints by riders. No doubt there was a similar policy in
>> > > London -- a much larger city.
>> > > > An irate passenger/driver could threaten "I've got your number,
>> > > you won't get away with this."
>> > > >
>> > > > GAT
>> > > >
>> > > > George A. Thompson
>> > > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>> > > Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: victor steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com>
>> > > > Date: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:05 pm
>> > > > Subject: Re: Query: "I've got your number."
>> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > > >
>> > > >> Clearly not telephone. Consider this line from a 1844 Punch poem.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> http://books.google.com/books?id=40wPAQAAIAAJ
>> > > >> Punch, Vol. 7, 1844, p. 261
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The Buss-Driver's Lament Over Bygone Days.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ...
>> > > >> When we,--that is, myself and cad,--
>> > > >> Could o'er our pewters slumber ;
>> > > >> But, stop an instant now, 'gad !
>> > > >> The p'liceman 's got your number.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> But all this show is that the expression was in use in 1844 London,
>> > > >> not where it came from.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I do have a couple of guesses, but I'll post them later. I hope this
>> > > >> is not a rush question.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> VS-)
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn
>> > > >> <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > At 6:14 PM -0500 3/16/10, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>> > > >> >> A colleague has asked me about the origin of the slang phrase
>> > > >> "I've got
>> > > >> >>your number" (= to have precise, useful knowledge of someone's
>> > > weaknesses;
>> > > >> >>have someone in a critical position).
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>I checked Jonathan Lighter's excellent HDAS and see examples going
>> > > >> back to
>> > > >> >>1853, but I don't see an etymology given, so I suppose this
>> silence
>> > > >> equates
>> > > >> >>to "Origin unknown."
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>I see various items on the expression in Google but am not clear
>> > > >> about their
>> > > >> >>reliability. Would anyone know what the "number" originally
>> > > >> referred to?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>Gerald Cohen
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > I always assumed, without any privileged knowledge, that it
>> referred
>> > > >> > to a phone number: I've got your number, I know where to
>> reach/get
>> > > >> > to you, you can't escape... Maybe evoking those old movies like
>> > > >> > "Dial M for Murder", in which the bad guy has the good guy/gal's
>> > > >> > (phone) number and can call it at will to raise the latter's fear
>> > > >> > quotient and the audience's tension. But that's just a guess.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > LH
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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