ont/ahnt
Joel S. Berson
Berson at ATT.NET
Thu Oct 7 14:59:16 UTC 2010
At 10/6/2010 10:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>At 9:47 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Those are good exx., Larry. Now I can write that poem.
>>
>>JL
>
>Right; three is enough for a limerick. The content may have to be a
>bit forced, though...
Add hawg.
Joel
>LH
>
>>
>>On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>>
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> At 9:11 PM -0400 10/6/10, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>> >Hog rhymes with frog and log. It has [ a:] as in gaga.
>>> >
>>> >Dog doesn't rhyme with anything I can think of offhand. It has
>>> [D: ] as in
>>> >"chalk").
>>>
>>> Ditto for me, essentially, but it *could* rhyme with other words. In
>>> fact it rhymes with "blawg" (a law-based blog, with supposedly 3.95
>>> million g-hits; not to be confused with "blog" itself, which of
>>> course rhymes with "frog" and "log") and with "Smaug" (Tolkien's
>>> dragon, which doesn't rhyme with "smog"), although I concede that
>>> those are spelling pronunciations, since neither comes up much in
>>> ordinary conversation.
>>>
>>> LH
>>>
>>> >
>>> >On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> -----------------------
>>> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>> >> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >> Dear Jonathan,
>>> >> That's my pattern too. My wife makes fun of my pronunciation of both
>>> dog
>>> >> and hog, (She has [D]).
>>> >>
>>> >> Paul Johnston
>>> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> -----------------------
>>> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> >> > Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Father and bother rhyme perfectly for me.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Dog and hog don't. At all.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > JL
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Paul Johnston <
>>> paul.johnston at wmich.edu
>>> >> >wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> >> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> "CON"/"KAHN" would work as [kDn]/[kAn] in the Pittsburgh area, I
>>> think,
>>> >> and
>>> >> >> neither would rhyme with "town", which would be [tan]. I just
>>> checked
>>> >> with
>>> >> >> two colleagues of mine, one from Canonsburg, PA, the other from
>>> >> Fairmont,
>>> >> >> WV, and they had different vowels in father and bother (a
>> > near-minimal
>>> >> pair)
>>> >> >> as [A] vs. [D] (rounded low vowel). The latter is LOT/THOUGHT for
>>> them.
>>> >> >> The former is, in Wells's terminology, PALM.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Paul Johnston
>>> >> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:17 PM, David Wake wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>> >> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> >>> Poster: David Wake <dwake at STANFORDALUMNI.ORG>
>>> >> >>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Can you offer a minimal pairs for these dialects? E.g.
>> > "con"/"Kahn",
>>> >> >>> perhaps? I thought that, with the exception of Eastern New
>>> England,
>>> >> >>> these dialects would all use their LOT vowel (rounded or
>>> unrounded)
>>> >> >>> for both lexical sets.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> D
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Paul Johnston <
>>> >> paul.johnston at wmich.edu>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>> >> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> >>>> Poster: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Most dialects where the LOT class is a low back ROUNDED
>>> vowel will
>>> >> >> pronounce ont and ahnt differently, particularly because of the /n/
>>> >> after
>>> >> >> it-- Eastern New England, the area from Erie PA through Pittsburgh
>>> down
>>> >> into
>>> > > >> West Virginia and into Kentucky, several Upper Southern dialects,
>>> >> Canada--in
>>> >> >> Eastern New England, the difference should be really striking: [D]
>>> (I
>>> >> mean
>>> >> >> the IPA symbol for a low back rounded vowel here) vs. a front [a:].
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Paul Johnston
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> >> >> -----------------------
>>> >> >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> >> >>>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: ont/ahnt
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> At 10/5/2010 08:49 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:45 PM, David Wake <
>>> >> dwake at stanfordalumni.org>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>>>> "ont"
>>> >> >>>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>> In most dialects of AmE, "ont" = "ahnt."
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Can you give me some examples where it doesn't? And
>>> please don't
>>> say
>>> >> >>>>> you won't.
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Joel
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> >> truth."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >>
>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> > truth."
>>> >
>>> >------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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