Quote or Proverb: My boys trust in the Lord, and keep your powder dry (antedating 1832 February 28)
Garson O'Toole
adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM
Tue Jan 25 15:50:29 UTC 2011
Many thanks to Joel for performing a thoughtful analysis of these
documents in GB and for sharing his findings. Here is a description of
the analysis I made when I found the quotation in "Old South
Leaflets". Judging relevance to the time range 1832-1835 (or earlier)
was the focus.
The text containing the phrase "Trust in God, and keep your powder
dry" appears to be commentary because it is written in a different,
smaller font. It apparently was added after 1869 and probably after
1898.
The quote occurs in "Old South Leaflets No. 134: Fourth of July
Oration 1802". Within the commentary there is a reference to a death
in 1811. So the commentary was written after the main date given on
the leaflet. Scrolling backward I found "Old South Leaflets No. 133:
Seward's Address on Alaska at Sitka, August 12, 1869". This suggests
that the commentary on the successor numbered leaflet 134 was added
after 1869.
Within the volume there are matches for years such as 1890, 1895 and
1898. So I think that volume viewed as a collection was assembled
sometime after 1898. But the leaflets (and commentary) at the
beginning of the volume might have been created earlier. Nevertheless,
the 1869 date is probably a lower bound for the commentary in leaflet
134.
Garson
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: Quote or Proverb: My boys trust in the Lord, and keep your
> powder dry (antedating 1832 February 28)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 1/25/2011 08:11 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>ZIP Codes: 1963.
>
> The Burt Franklin-published collection of Old South leaflets that
> contains the quote is of issues 126-150. Some of the
> individually-titled leaflets with issue numbers in that vicinity are
> dated circa 1902. So Franklin's is clearly a later collection. But
> we still can't demonstrate when the footnote was written, 1963+ or
> circa 1902 or whenever Emerson's oration was first published as an
> Old South leaflet. (In browsing through the leaflet and footnote, I
> did not notice an imprint date or any date later than I think 1814.)
>
> Joel
>
>
>>Could anybody forget the red-faced, horror mailman "Mr. ZIP"?
>>
>>I can't.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 1:37 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject: Re: Quote or Proverb: My boys trust in the Lord, and keep
>> > your
>> > powder dry (antedating 1832 February 28)
>> >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > I seem to have not received what Victor wrote, but I can add to the
>> > analysis of the two Google Books hits, William Emerson's Fourth of
>> > July Oration and The Eclectic Review. With the aid of the (publicly
>> > accessible) Harvard on-line catalog. In summary, the date of the Old
>> > Church leaflet instance is 1890s or later; the date of the Eclectic
>> > Review instance is 1836/37.
>> >
>> > 1) Emerson's 1802 Fourth of July Oration is in one of the
>> > *collections* of "Old South leaflets", here issues 126-150, published
>> > by "Burt Franklin, 235 East 44th Street, New York, N.Y. 10017",
>> > apparently without an imprinted date The text containing "keep your
>> > powder dry" is in a footnote (page 209 of 569), presumably written by
>> > the editor/collector; it is not in Emerson's oration.. When were ZIP
>> > codes introduced? Text on page 565 of 569 contains in the first line
>> > (of a footnote) the date 1895. (Some of the Old South collections
>> > were published as late as the 1950s; search the Harvard catalog for
>> > "Old South leaflets".) Even if Emerson's oration was originally
>> > printed near 1802 as an individual "Old South leaflet", the target
>> > phrase is in the footnote, not his oration.
>> >
>> > 2) For The Eclectic Review issue containing "keep your powder dry"
>> > -- Search GBooks for eclectic + "keep your powder dry", before
>> > 1899. 7 results. Some are claimed to be 1837 (page 496), others
>> > 1861 (page 547), and the 1805/Volume 1 also appears (Snippet).
>> >
>> > 2a) The 1805 is a false dating (see also (2b) below). In the
>> > Harvard catalog, Search in Journal Titles / Journal title beginning
>> > with / for "Eclectic Review". In Browse List: Titles All, select
>> > "The eclectic review" (2 records), then the second of the two records
>> > (with date 1805).. The Full View of Record shows dates of
>> > publication, beginning it is true with 1805 but running through
>> > 1868. Click on the Location "Networked Resource" that says
>> > Restrictions "Access to portions of this material may be
>> > restricted." On the Holdings page click on the Internet Link. On
>> > the Find it! @ Harvard page is a list of all the issues Harvard has
>> > supplied Google with. Click Full Text for v. 1. The Google holding
>> > is Full Text here (not Snippet), and searching for "keep your powder
>> > dry" yields "No results".
>> >
>> > 2b) Downloading the 1836 issue via Google Books does find "Put your
>> > trust in God, but keep your powder dry" on page 496 (515 of 659),
>> > with running head "Osler's Church and Dissent". Page 492 (511 of
>> > 659) is headed "Art. VII. The Church and Dissent ... By Edward
>> > Osler. ... London: 1836. 12mo." The title page of this volume of
>> > The Eclectic Review is dated "MDCCCXXXVII [1837], January--June", and
>> > it is "New Series. Vol. I". This presumably explains GBooks' false
>> > 1805 instance -- someone took "Vol. I" to mean 1805, not realizing
>> > that The Eclectic Review was eclectic about its series -- the Harvard
>> > catalog shows *several* "new ser." at various dates.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> >
>> > At 1/24/2011 09:19 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote:
>> > >Victor wrote:
>> > > > With apologies to Garson and his incremental approach, it pains me to
>> > > > punch a hole in the theory of the quotes coalescing around an 1830s
>> > > > literary work.
>> > >
>> > >Thanks for your response Victor. I located the two citations from
>> > >Google Books that you mention during my initial search. After
>> > >examining them closely I decided that the dates were inaccurate.
>> > >
>> > >Assessing the dates of volumes that appear in the Google Books
>> > >database can be a difficult task. And I might be wrong. You mentioned
>> > >the problems with the second cite. Perhaps I should have discussed the
>> > >first cite and my reasons for excluding it in the original post.
>> > >
>> > >Thanks to DanG for his insightful comment about the text appended to
>> > >the leaflet.
>> > >Garson
>> > >
>> > > > http://goo.gl/RmK9Q
>> > > > Old South Leaflets. No. 134
>> > > > Fourth of July Oration. 1802. p. 16 [GB volume is a compilation, dated
>> > > > 1788, p. 200]
>> > > >> The first of Mr. Emerson's published discourses, given at Harvard,
>> > > >> Mass., July 4, 1794, is interesting in comparison with the Boston 4th
>> > > >> of July oration in 1802. It was given at the request of the military
>> > > >> officers of the town of Harvard, who, with the militia under their
>> > > >> command, assembled to hear it. It dwelt largely upon the importance of
>> > > >> morals and religion in the nation. Referring to dangers then
>> > > >> confronting, or likely to confront, the nation, the preacher said, "If
>> > > >> ever called to the field, we trust ye will remember fromwhom ye
>> > > >> descend." *The motto for the whole might very well have been that
>> > > >> often attributed to Cromwell's Puritans: "Trust in God, and keep your
>> > > >> powder dry."*
>> > > >
>> > > > There is an apparent 1805 hit--vol. 1 of The Eclectic Review--but it
>> > > > only comes in snippets in GB so I was unable to either verify it or get
>> > > > the full context (the preview does include the whole quote, but there
>> > is
>> > > > no guarantee that it's from the right volume, as the snippet shows
>> > > > nothing). The following is what's in the preview, complete with odd
>> > > > spelling:
>> > > >
>> > > > http://goo.gl/AcfjU
>> > > >> ...Fear not, but put toue Trust in God, and keep your Powder dry." '
>> > > >> Ho ! Marston, 'neath the moonlight thy thousands owned his power. Ho !
>> > > >> Naseby ! blood-bespangled in freedom's glorious hour. Ho ! Preston !
>> > > >> Dunbar ! Worcester !...
>> > > >
>> > > > But I suspect this to be an error. The clipping is from a Ramsey
>> > > > Churchyard 1848 poem The Farmer o St. Ives. (http://goo.gl/a0oSJ ) The
>> > > > fact that the snippet does not correspond to the preview suggests the
>> > > > possibility that they are taken from different texts. Still an
>> > > > interesting piece, but far too late to be of any use.
>> > > >
>> > > > I haven't checked EAN.
>> > > >
>> > > > VS-)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > VS-)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 1/24/2011 5:32 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote:
>> > > >> Thanks for your response DanG. The evidence that Cromwell said the
>> > > >> phrase is very weak because the date of the first known appearance is
>> > > >> so late as you note. In 1832 the words were attributed to Archdal
>> > > >> (also spelled Archdale) by the Earl of Radnor in the Hansard
>> > > >> transcripts. Archdale was based in Ireland I think, and he attributed
>> > > >> the words to Cromwell.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It seems possible that a fictional treatment of Cromwell influenced
>> > > >> the attribution. A citation supporting that hypothesis would be
>> > > >> fascinating.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The footnote in the Dublin University magazine in 1834 said: "There is
>> > > >> a well-authenticated anecdote of Cromwell" saying a version of the
>> > > >> phrase. But no evidence accompanied this claim. If there is evidence
>> > > >> it may not have been digitized yet, or it may be difficult to access.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Reporting incremental progress was the intention for my post: pushing
>> > > >> the earliest date back a couple years, and identifying Archdale as a
>> > > >> locus of popularization.
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
More information about the Ads-l
mailing list