Breaking doubled consonants into syllables

Thu Aug 30 00:48:46 UTC 2012

I disagree that double consonants are held longer than single ones.  Anyone got data?  For example, take the "n"s in "conceit" and "connote".  I'd say the "n" in "conceit" lasts longer by a microsecond than the double "nn"s of "connote" because the transition to the ~s seems to hold it.  How about "demand" and "command" - same thing.

About truespel phonetics, it's an alternative to the stupid phonetics we now have in dictionaries and academia that actually thwart the use of phonetics in our schools because of user unfriendliness.  Phonetics are not taught in grammar schools, not used in newspapers, nor even in government publications.  And the phonetics that is used in these publications doesn't even have a name.   I call it CAP-dash phonetics.
I'd like an experiment done.  For those in college, ask incoming freshmen to spell three sounds "ah" "uh" and "awe" (don't say "awe" like "ah").  I bet 99% can't do it. (maybe language or English majors can).  In USA  I'm sure none will use IPA.  Take note of where they are from and age. 

Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9.
See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Breaking doubled consonants into syllables
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Truespel aside, because I'm not always sure what you're trying to
> accomplish with it, long consonants do occur in speech.  In lots of
> languages the contrast between single and double or geminate
> consonants is important and manifests itself as a difference in how
> long it takes to say the consonant.  In English, this occurs only in
> compounds, and forms like "un-" and "non-" behave like compounding
> elements, even though that don't stand as orthographic words
> themselves.  In compounds it is also possible to have two adjacent
> stressed syllables.  In English, double consonants, which are held
> longer than single consonants, don't occur within morphemes--only
> across morpheme boundaries as in compounds.
> 
> Herb
> 
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Breaking doubled consonants into syllables
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Herb=2C
> > With truespel phonetics there is a vowel for every syllable (no vowelized c=
> > onsonants).  So to make parsing easy I suggest ending each phonetic syllabl=
> > e with a vowel (except for the last).  Now this may seem very nuts but it w=
> > orks nicely and ends the controversy about syllabication ~si-la-bi-kkae-shi=
> > n (kk shows stressed syllable)."breaking      double  consonants      contr=
> > oversy"~brae-keeng du-bool kaa-nsoe-nints kaa-ntroe-ver-see (~er is a vowel=
> >  form because the "r" changes the "e" sound)
> > Is it possible to have two sequential syllables both stressed?  Is it possi=
> > ble to "hold" a plosive longer when doubled "tt" or "pp" or "cc" than when =
> > single?  How do you lengthen a plosive?I don't think either of these things=
> >  happen.
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9.
> > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk
> >
> >
> >  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------=
> > -------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: Breaking doubled consonants into syllables
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ------
> >>=20
> >> Tom=2C
> >>=20
> >> If you want to see what really does happen in the slosh of typical
> >> speech=2C a nice phrase=2C by the way=2C you have to transcribe phonetica=
> > lly
> >> directly from sound spectrograms--voiceprints.  There's been a fair
> >> amount of work on this=2C and the results can be astonishing in terms of
> >> the amount of reduction that goes on.  However=2C in what are called
> >> "citation forms=2C" for example=2C the way we pronounce the headword of a
> >> dictionary entry=2C separate consonants don't have to be separated by a
> >> vowel sound.  This is obvious when the two consonants aren't
> >> identical=2C like the "st" in "stir=2C" "rest=2C" or "rested."  When the =
> > two
> >> consonants are identical=2C as "unnatural=2C" "non-native=2C" "thick crus=
> > t=2C"
> >> etc.=2C the two last longer than in words like "illegal=2C" "attend=2C" e=
> > tc.
> >>  This is particularly true when the syllables containing the two
> >> identical consonants are both stressed.
> >>=20
> >> Herb
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Tue=2C Aug 28=2C 2012 at 4:52 AM=2C Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.co=
> > m> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> >
> >> > Yeah but what does really happen in the slosh of typical speech.  For i=
> > nsta=3D
> >> > nce the word "non-negative".  If we were to say "nah negative" it would=
> >  be =3D
> >> > closer to the way we actually say it.  The final "n" of "non" bleeds in=
> > to t=3D
> >> > he leading "n" of negative.  No pause or gap which to me would be neede=
> > d to=3D
> >> >  hyphenate it there aurally.  Take the word "syllable" ~silibool or si-=
> > li-b=3D
> >> > ool (~bool rhymes with "wool").  We don't aurally split those l's aural=
> > ly.
> >> > In truespel phonetics stress default is on the first syllable but shift=
> > s to=3D
> >> >  the vowel after a double consonant like "desert" and "dessert".  So un=
> > natu=3D
> >> > ral is ~unnacherool.  I find that double consonants are subtle indicato=
> > rs o=3D
> >> > f stress on a following vowel (but for silent e suffix rules).
> >> >
> >> > Tom Zurinskas=3D2C Conn 20 yrs=3D2C Tenn 3=3D2C NJ 33=3D2C now Fl 9.
> >> > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  >=3D20
> >>=20
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