origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Paul Johnston]

The Finns were very important in the settlement of the UP.  However, there are also plenty of Canadian-like features in the dialect: full-blown Canadian Raising, cot/caught merger, and even the stereotypical "eh".  It sounds like a transition dialect to Canadian English to some extent, as does the whole Upper Midwest, really.   Even the monophthongal /e o/ that is often attributed to the Finnish or Swedish substrate could equally well come from Canadian English--more likely it's due to mutual reinforcement.

Paul Johnston
On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Ronald Butters wrote:
>
>> From 1890-1960, at least in the eastern counties, the majority of immigrants were from "Canada, Finland, Sweden, and Ireland" ("Prehistoric, historic, and present settlement patterns related to ecological hierarchy in the Eastern Upper Peninsula of Michigan USA"; Landscape Ecology 12 [1997]: 223ˆ240; p237). Why single out the Finns?
>
> If you listen to the Youpertalk albums, you can tell there's a strong influence from Finnish, in the vowels as well as the absence of dental fricatives.  It may vary for different areas of the U.P., and of course some of the Finnish or Swedish immigrants to the U.P. may have spent time in Canada en route, but I don't know if I'd be capable of detecting a "Canadian substrate", whatever that would amount to.  Also the Youpertalk albums have some songs such in Finnish.  None in Canadian.  I can't detect any Irish influences in the speech patterns, as opposed to, say, speech patterns in early 20th c. New York or Boston English.  I admit, this is pretty impressionistic stuff.
>
> LH
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Paul Johnston wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't forget  that TH-stopping isn't unique to NYC.  It's found in nearly every large, industrial Northern city I can think of--and they all attracted a multitude of ethnic groups without theta or eth, so which group started it isn't easy to determine.
>>>
>>> And in some very non-large non-cities, such as the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where it's a shibboleth (along with others) of "Youpertalk".  Finnish substrate effects seem plausible in that case.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org