From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 01:35:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:35:44 -0500 Subject: lackadaisical -- affixal gags In-Reply-To: <201112310552.pBU67h6j032056@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > nother involves the same principle, I think. For some speakers, no doubt. Possibly only for those who think that, e.g. "Luke, I am your baby daddy" is funny, despite the fact that _baby daddy_ can't possibly replace _father_ in that context, OTOH [Early Cuyler, addressing his son's girlfriend, the mother of Early's grandson], "Little gal, why settle for the sequel, when you can have the prequel? I'm your baby daddy daddy." Now, that's the proper way to use this dialect construction for laughs. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 1 15:24:19 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 10:24:19 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? Message-ID: That seems to be what team Romney is counting on. A Styrofoam campaign for president? Wish I'd thought of that. At the moment, I would wager $10,000 it works. Alex Castellanos, "Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign'," CNN Opinion (Google), Jan. 1, 2012, p not given Is _styrofoam_ replacing _Teflon_ in politics? David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 16:06:33 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:06:33 -0500 Subject: serial coordination Message-ID: Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? http://goo.gl/akG2k > Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent > and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 16:21:58 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:21:58 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011606.q01CA4xw004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would flip "both in" to "in both". That said, I knew what was meant. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: serial coordination > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? > > http://goo.gl/akG2k >> Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent >> and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 1 16:51:44 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:51:44 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Message-ID: Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 17:06:13 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 12:06:13 -0500 Subject: Wordnik (and COCA) in the Times Message-ID: (Several of our usual suspects are involved!) LH P.S. Anticipating Wilson's complaint, yes, they probably meant some of the Web's *voces* populi. Although arguably a mass use might have been intended. ====================== NOVELTIES: Defining Words, Without the Arbiters Wordnik, the online dictionary, brings some of the Web’s vox populi to the definition of words. It shows “what’s out there right now,” one of its founders says. http://nyti.ms/uOBaep ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 19:43:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:43:23 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: <201201011524.q0166Scb001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:24 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > '_styrofoam_ campaign' "Mighty lean. What's it mean?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 19:58:37 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:58:37 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011622.q0166SRO022105@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another possibility: "… both in style and in the way they pitch …" I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Dan Goncharoff > Subject: � � � Re: serial coordination > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would flip "both in" to "in both". That said, I knew what was meant. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: � � � American Dialect Society >> Poster: � � � Victor Steinbok >> Subject: � � � serial coordination >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? >> >> http://goo.gl/akG2k >>> Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent >>> and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. >> >> � � VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 20:06:37 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: "_sea_ mines" Message-ID: Like unto "_front_ slash"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 20:23:33 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: <201201011944.q0166SiR001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: David Barnhart wrote: >> '_styrofoam_ campaign' Thanks David: Here is a link and some excepts that may help to elucidate the metaphor. Of course, metaphors sometimes have unintended implications. The eHow website notes: "If you cut Styrofoam incorrectly, the plastic foam may crumble or break in the wrong spots. Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign' By Alex Castellanos, CNN Contributor updated 10:38 AM EST, Sun January 1, 2012 http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/01/opinion/castellanos-iowa-republican-field/index.html [Begin excerpt] Whether Romney has run a brilliantly passive race or a fortunate one does not matter. Passionless, but not hollow, his campaign has been as buoyant as Styrofoam. Romney may continue to float downriver to the nomination, full of holes, on a rigid structure of air. ... Romney's noncampaign campaign may also be a brilliant strategy for the general election, the perfect way to receive a billion dollar's worth of negative bullets from Team Obama. Styrofoam is light but stronger than it looks. A few more holes won't sink it. And styrofoam runs neither hot nor cold: It is hard to love but, for the same reason, hard to hate. [End excerpt] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 21:47:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:47:53 -0500 Subject: "_sea_ mines" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yup, another entry for the retronym files. Not quite up to the standard set by "biological mother", though, or "World War I". I'm also partial, this time of the quadrennium, to the "human poll". And of course now we have the "fiction novel". LH On Jan 1, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Like unto "_front_ slash"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 23:18:49 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:18:49 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > David Barnhart wrote: >>> '_styrofoam_ campaign' > > Thanks David: Here is a link and some excepts that may help to > elucidate the metaphor. Of course, metaphors sometimes have unintended > implications. The eHow website notes: "If you cut Styrofoam > incorrectly, the plastic foam may crumble or break in the wrong spots. It also wreaks havoc with the environment, but maybe for the relevant constituency that's not necessarily a bad thing. LH > > Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign' > By Alex Castellanos, CNN Contributor > updated 10:38 AM EST, Sun January 1, 2012 > http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/01/opinion/castellanos-iowa-republican-field/index.html > > [Begin excerpt] > Whether Romney has run a brilliantly passive race or a fortunate one > does not matter. Passionless, but not hollow, his campaign has been as > buoyant as Styrofoam. Romney may continue to float downriver to the > nomination, full of holes, on a rigid structure of air. > ... > Romney's noncampaign campaign may also be a brilliant strategy for the > general election, the perfect way to receive a billion dollar's worth > of negative bullets from Team Obama. Styrofoam is light but stronger > than it looks. A few more holes won't sink it. And styrofoam runs > neither hot nor cold: It is hard to love but, for the same reason, > hard to hate. > [End excerpt] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 1 23:37:12 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:37:12 -0500 Subject: Romney-boated??? Message-ID: Here's another (two in one day): "Gingrich says he's Romney-boated" from USA Today about a quarter hour ago. That is built off of "Swift-boated". David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 1 23:59:48 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:59:48 -0500 Subject: Romney-boated??? In-Reply-To: <201201012337.q01CA45e004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 6:37 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > "Gingrich says he's Romney-boated" from USA Today about a quarter hour > ago. That is built off of "Swift-boated". Gingrich was responding to question about whether he felt "swift-boated" by Romney's commercials in Iowa. So, since it followed an explicit reference to the founding form, I don't think "-boat(ed)" has achieved the level of Zwickyan libfix a la "-gate". --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 2 01:10:03 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 20:10:03 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011959.q0166Siv001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson is exactly right about my motivation. Understanding what was being conveyed was not an issue. The same could be said about the following sentence, taken from a local police blotter: http://goo.gl/Fy4Ur > The store employee said that he confronted the suspect by the bus > stop, who tried to take the employee's cell phone when trying to call > 911 to report the theft. However, in this case, more people might consider this to be a serious violation. VS-) On 1/1/2012 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Another possibility: "… both in style and in the way they pitch …" > > I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as > "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, > but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 2 08:41:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:41:04 -0800 Subject: Rice cake Message-ID: Having eaten three mochi for the new year, I wondered about the OED treatment of the word. It has a nice etymology and definition. The common English equivalent, rice cake, is also there, but it seems to have more than one meaning, none of which match mochi. The word is not defined, but has four citations: 1683 P. Lorrain tr. P. Muret Rites Funeral 242 This being done, all the company sit down to eat Rice-cakes in the Church it self. 1769 E. Raffald Experienced Eng. Housekeeper (1778) 269 To make Rice Cake. 1862 S. St. John Life Forests Far East II. 42 A particular kind of rice-cake sent in very hot. 1996 Independent 30 Aug. i. 3/4 We tried to get her to eat something but all she'd have was rice cakes. The 1769 citation is a Moscow context (http://ow.ly/8fowA). The second one, I don't see on Google. The 1862 citation is in a Malay context (http://ow.ly/8fos0). It seems likely that the 1996 citation refers to puffed rice rice cakes (http://ow.ly/8fosQ). The earliest citation I see for "rice cake" in Google Books meaning mochi is 1806. "Journal of the Association of Military Surgeons of the United States," Volume 18, p. 445 (http://ow.ly/8foES) ----- On New Years day, on the anniversary of the foundation of the empire by the first Mikado Jimmo Tenno (660 years before Christ), and on the anniversary of the birth of the reigning Mikado, the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice cake (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. ----- I don't know what the white and red cakes are, but the same book describes "katapan" as follows: "... also a sort of sweet biscuit called "Katapan," as large as the palm of the hand and as thick as the little finger." This word is probably not worth of note in an English dictionary, though photos of the katapan can be seen at http://ow.ly/8foQn. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Mon Jan 2 16:24:38 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:24:38 -0500 Subject: Rice cake In-Reply-To: <201201020841.q0264qpr028473@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice cake (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. What are "katapans?" Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 2 16:57:09 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:57:09 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201020110.q0166SrX001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first of the two examples was copyedited, but the second was not. That makes the first mistake worse. DanG On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: serial coordination > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson is exactly right about my motivation. Understanding what was > being conveyed was not an issue. > > The same could be said about the following sentence, taken from a local > police blotter: > > http://goo.gl/Fy4Ur > > The store employee said that he confronted the suspect by the bus > > stop, who tried to take the employee's cell phone when trying to call > > 911 to report the theft. > > However, in this case, more people might consider this to be a serious > violation. > > VS-) > > On 1/1/2012 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Another possibility: "… both in style and in the way they pitch …" > > > > I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as > > "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, > > but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. > > -- > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 2 18:02:40 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:02:40 -0800 Subject: Rice cake In-Reply-To: <201201021624.q0264qnb007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As I mentioned, the word is defined in the 1806 book as a sweet biscuit. The Wikipedia article (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A0%85%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3) uses the orthography � �パン (literally hard bread) and says that an alternative name is haado takku (hard tack), making it seem like there are two different foods. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 2, 2012, at 8:24 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice ca= > ke (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. > > What are "katapans?" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 2 22:18:33 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? Message-ID: I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=darcy_kieran&id=6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Jan 2 23:11:57 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:11:57 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <201201022218.q0264qvJ007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we're not limited to possessive apostrophes, there are plenty of names with decorative ones, like De'Andre. Neal On Jan 2, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for = > St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in = > box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in = > http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kie= > ran&id=3D6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with = > an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. = > (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player = > for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. = > Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) =20= > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 2 23:49:39 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:49:39 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <201201022218.q0264qvJ007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for > St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in > box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in > http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kieran&id=3D6480215). > No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in > it but I can't think of others I've encountered. > (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player > for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. > Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) Elsewhere in the NCAA, Wake Forest's football team recently recruited a defensive end from Florida named God's Power Offor. (Like Mr. Achiuwa, he's originally from Nigeria.) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/18/ncaa-recruits-names/index.html On the Wake Forest website, he's Godspower Offor: http://www.wakeforestsports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/offor_godspower00.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 00:52:01 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:52:01 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether for equal time considerations there aren't athletes (or maybe artists) at some other college named Devil's Spawn Something-or-Other (or, in honor of both the great Braves' left-hander and awe-dropping, Devil's Spahn Warren). Oh, and to respond to Neal, yes, I should have specified that I was limiting my domain to true possessive apostrophes, so no D'Artagnans or D'Shawns or O'Briens need apply. LH On Jan 2, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for >> St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in >> box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in >> http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kieran&id=3D6480215). >> No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in >> it but I can't think of others I've encountered. >> (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player >> for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. >> Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) > > Elsewhere in the NCAA, Wake Forest's football team recently recruited > a defensive end from Florida named God's Power Offor. (Like Mr. > Achiuwa, he's originally from Nigeria.) > > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/18/ncaa-recruits-names/index.html > > On the Wake Forest website, he's Godspower Offor: > > http://www.wakeforestsports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/offor_godspower00.html > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 01:16:17 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 20:16:17 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <517CC3A4-10D9-4C9E-AD20-A93A860A3516@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > If we're not limited to possessive apostrophes, there are plenty of names with decorative ones, like De'Andre. > > Neal Or De'Anthony (Thomas), who ran for a 90+ yard touchdown in tonight's Rose Bowl game, holding on to both the ball and the decorative apostrophe. LH > > On Jan 2, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for = >> St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in = >> box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in = >> http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kie= >> ran&id=3D6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with = >> an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. = >> (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player = >> for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. = >> Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) =20= >> >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 08:29:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 03:29:34 -0500 Subject: Dothraki Message-ID: A double whammy--no word for X and 14 words for Y--a follow up (or summary, if you prefer) on NYT article ( http://goo.gl/NCvDF ). And all that in a /made up language/! http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2011/12/how-game-of-thrones-dothraki-language-came-to-be/ > ... > The Dothraki language in /Game of Thrones/ isn’t some > slopped-together, haphazard gibberish. As the NY Times tells it, it’s > a full-formed, logical vernacular put together by a linguistics expert > inspired by languages such as Swahili and Estonian. > David Peterson is the man behind dreaming up the entire Dothraki > language for television. After getting his degree from UCSD, he > created 12 other full languages and founded the first professional > organisation for people who like to create fake languages. (I’m > legitimately curious how many people are a part of that). > ... > Here’s how well Peterson understands the Dothraki: there’s no word for > toilet, but there are 14 for horses. Well done. I wonder how many words the new language has for horse's asses? I am not trying to disparage the enterprise. But inquiring minds want to know. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:03:41 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:03:41 -0500 Subject: mired Message-ID: I came across the following comment in a news story > “We were continuing to be mired, and I think it’s important to move > legislation forward,” he said in an interview. The naked "mired" bothered me somewhat, so I was happy to discover that this seems to be perfectly ordinary formation (quite old, in fact). But then I started to compare quotes for mire v.1 and mired adj. Here's a partial list without dates, sources--or article ID. > Many of its competitors remained mired in bankruptcy. > Even though we are mired down in theoretical analyses, the reason why > the Third World is so desperate for some kind of new world order > begins to come through. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:04:31 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:04:31 -0500 Subject: mired In-Reply-To: <4F0326DD.7050806@gmail.com> Message-ID: The message was not even close to being finished--please ignore, for the time being. VS-) On 1/3/2012 11:03 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I came across the following comment in a news story > >> “We were continuing to be mired, and I think it’s important to move >> legislation forward,” he said in an interview. > > The naked "mired" bothered me somewhat, so I was happy to discover > that this seems to be perfectly ordinary formation (quite old, in > fact). But then I started to compare quotes for mire v.1 and mired > adj. Here's a partial list without dates, sources--or article ID. > >> Many of its competitors remained mired in bankruptcy. >> Even though we are mired down in theoretical analyses, the reason why >> the Third World is so desperate for some kind of new world order >> begins to come through. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 16:47:08 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:47:08 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP Message-ID: From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: "We’re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don’t want blown off that fucker" (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 3 16:56:23 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:56:23 -0800 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We‚re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don‚t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:57:16 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: pronuanciation In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Pronuanciation!" Puts nuance in pronunciation,like dialects do. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:02:20 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:02:20 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <3B61383E-AB68-4039-9AE9-AB48C5E45D75@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On 1/3/12 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >> >> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >> >> "We‚re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don‚t want >> blown off that fucker" >> >> (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >> off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > > discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). > I kind of thought so, but didn't have anything concrete to pin that on, and so didn't speculate. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 3 17:08:25 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:08:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <4F03349C.20105@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/3/2012 12:02 PM, Alice Faber wrote: >On 1/3/12 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >>> >>> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >>> >>>"We‚re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don‚t want >>>blown off that fucker" >>> >>>(Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >>>off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) >> >>discussions of such uses of want/need geberally >>trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). >I kind of thought so, but didn't have anything concrete to pin that on, >and so didn't speculate. And what do we know gerbilly anyway? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 3 17:21:47 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:21:47 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch Message-ID: Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast last night, as the location of a news event: WITHOUTBURN The announcer had said "Woburn." Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). Any other hypotheses? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:51:09 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:51:09 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <3B61383E-AB68-4039-9AE9-AB48C5E45D75@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >> >> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >> >> "We‚re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don‚t want >> blown off that fucker" >> >> (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >> off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > > discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). > > arnold Michael Montgomery's work on this construction is especially explicit about the Scotch-Irish heritage. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:55:48 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:55:48 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear Alice, That sort of construction is fine in Scotland, where the W PA/WV usage came from (via Ulster). I even picked it up myself during my Edinburgh years and still use it, even though I'm not from an American area that does. As far as I know, it is General Scots and Northumbrian--I'm not sure about the "Norse Crescent" dialects from Carlisle to York and Hull. Paul Johnston On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We‚re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don‚t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > -- > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 18:11:36 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:11:36 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <201201031722.q03HMV4l030388@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/3/12 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast > last night, as the location of a news event: > > WITHOUTBURN > > The announcer had said "Woburn." > > Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" > could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The > only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or > thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) > corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > It's an autocorrect type thing. The captioner presumably was using one of those CART machines (sort of like a courtroom transcriber uses). As far as I can tell (one of the blogs I regularly follow is by someone who does captioning for classes and public lectures), users preload these machines with abbreviations and the like that are auto-expanded. "wo" for "without" would make perfect sense as a pre-load. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 18:16:12 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:16:12 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <201201031722.q03HMV4l030388@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast > last night, as the location of a news event: > > WITHOUTBURN > > The announcer had said "Woburn." > > Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" > could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The > only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or > thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) > corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > > Any other hypotheses? > > Joel > Well, since "Worcester" is pronounced [wIst@] or [wUst@], the captioner must have figured [wub at n] is really a "corruption" of Withoutburn, no doubt named for the major local industry, suntan lotion manufacture. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL Tue Jan 3 19:28:27 2012 From: lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL (Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:28:27 -0700 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031756.q03GrxxJ024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'd venture that it is used in North Yorkshire. I distinctly recall an exchange with my maternal grandmother (a Victorian-Edwardian Englishwoman from Saltburn-by-the-Sea), in which I'd volunteered to wash the woodwork in her house. Her reply: "It doesn't want washed." I've remembered the conversation these 60-odd years because the construction struck me as singular at the time. (My grandmother probably used that phrasing on a regular basis, but I never paid close attention after remarking that particular instance.) Lynne Hunter ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Poster: Paul Johnston Subject: Re: Modal + PP ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- That sort of construction is fine in Scotland... As far as I know, it is General Scots and Northumbrian--I'm not sure about the "Norse Crescent" dialects from Carlisle to York and Hull. Paul Johnston On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We're in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don't want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > -- > ======================================================================= ====== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 22:16:54 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:16:54 -0500 Subject: Galut Message-ID: OED has only one pronunciation of diaspora (diphthong, followed by the open, stressed ae, then two schwas). I have recently been exposed to several people stress the [o] instead. While looking up diaspora, I thought about "Galut". OED has no entry, although the word does occur in a quotation under klezmer. There is also the entry for Resh Galuta, where Galut is mentioned in the etymology note. But no separate entry for Galut. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 4 00:30:29 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 19:30:29 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <4F0344D8.7010403@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: Sounds right on. Not exactly spelling correction, rather spelling completion. The real time captioning seems too often a day late and a sentence short. Is anyone working on using voice recognition software? Joel At 1/3/2012 01:11 PM, Alice Faber wrote: >On 1/3/12 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast >>last night, as the location of a news event: >> >>WITHOUTBURN >> >>The announcer had said "Woburn." >> >>Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" >>could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The >>only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or >>thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) >>corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > >It's an autocorrect type thing. The captioner presumably was using one >of those CART machines (sort of like a courtroom transcriber uses). As >far as I can tell (one of the blogs I regularly follow is by someone who >does captioning for classes and public lectures), users preload these >machines with abbreviations and the like that are auto-expanded. "wo" >for "without" would make perfect sense as a pre-load. > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Wed Jan 4 02:20:58 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:20:58 -0600 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 01/03/2012 10:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We’re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don’t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) I suspect it was once used in one Ulster County NY community: Ireland Corners. Is it used anywhere in Canada? -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 02:47:45 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 21:47:45 -0500 Subject: Public domain Message-ID: http://www.law.duke.edu/cspd/publicdomainday/2012/pre-1976 -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 03:16:30 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:16:30 -0500 Subject: Wordnik (and COCA) in the Times In-Reply-To: <201201011706.q01CA40U004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > � Anticipating Wilson's complaint Hey! WTF?!;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 03:24:22 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:24:22 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Ecology" Message-ID: ecology (OED 1876) 1875 _The Academy_ 18 Sept. 309 (British Periodicals) Seeing that the scope of Botany differs from that of Zoology only in the fact that the one deals with plants, the other with animals, we might expect that physiology, morphology, oecology, and taxonomy in each would have assumed about the same relative importance to one another. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 03:55:35 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:55:35 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game Message-ID: "[The quarterback] throws long and… _incompletes_." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:22:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:22:18 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040356.q03LL3FF024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? VS-) On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "[The quarterback] throws long and… _incompletes_." > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jan 4 04:29:11 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:29:11 -0500 Subject: a little ahead of ourselves ... Message-ID: In January 2013 .. Prefix of the year: _post-_ (for all the fallen tyrants) Word of the year: _election_ (for all the hoopla) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:31:47 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:31:47 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040422.q040l0Rj028679@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > _incompletes_ The only thing of interest is the use of simple "incompletes" in place of "fails to succeed in his attempt to throw an complete pass" or any one of possibly dozens of other strings. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:42:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:42:26 -0500 Subject: One of Reagan's first acts as governor? Message-ID: He killed the Dept. of Geography at Berkeley as being otiose. Everybody knows that Mexico forms part of North America. The guy calling the Sugar Bowl game between Michigan and Virginia Tech mentions that VA Tech's only regular-season loss was to Clemson, "which will be playing another college from Virginia, _West Virginia_ University." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 04:49:19 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:49:19 -0500 Subject: a little ahead of ourselves ... In-Reply-To: <000001ccca99$68b98ee0$3a2caca0$@com> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:29 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > In January 2013 .. > > > > Prefix of the year: _post-_ (for all the fallen tyrants) > > > > Word of the year: _election_ (for all the hoopla) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ "Buyer's remorse" (for the post-election)? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 4 05:09:20 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 00:09:20 -0500 Subject: gay, straight, or lying Message-ID: My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and lying"? http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common among gay men before then. Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 06:25:02 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:25:02 -0800 Subject: gay, straight, or lying In-Reply-To: <201201040526.q03JevDa016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't think logic has anything to do with it. It sounds like to me a pattern or snowclone of sorts--monosyllable, monosyllable, or bisyllable--but I can't think of any other phrases that fit. Maybe something that ends in "crazy." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 3, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say > bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and > lying"? > http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ > > The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common > among gay men before then. > > Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 07:22:15 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:22:15 -0500 Subject: gay, straight, or lying In-Reply-To: <201201040526.q03LL3Md024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for an interesting question and article, Neal. Here is an earlier cite for a variant phrasing of the three-way disjunction. Cite: 1997 October 14, The Advocate, Searching for that perfect pair of genes by Dean Hamer, Start Page 65, Quote Page 66, Published by Here Publishing. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=w2MEAAAAMBAJ&q=liar#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Sexologists like to joke that there are just three sexual orientations — gay, straight, and liar — but the real world is populated by many people who are in between. [End excerpt] Here is one possible way in which the phrase may have evolved. Someone stated "each person is gay, straight or bisexual". This evoked the retort "each person is gay, straight, or a liar". The implicit three-way disjunction is "each person is gay (and willing to acknowledge it), straight (and willing to acknowledge it) or a liar who claims to be bisexual". Note, I am not stating that this is my opinion! Also, these simplistic disjunctions do not include intersex people, asexual people etcetera. Also note, in this analysis the phrase initially was applied to all people and not to bisexuals exclusively. This accords with the use in the Advocate. The podcast hosts that Neal refers to apparently applied the phrase to bisexuals. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: gay, straight, or lying > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say > bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and > lying"? > http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ > > The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common > among gay men before then. > > Neal > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 4 13:57:28 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 05:57:28 -0800 Subject: "liberal democracy" Message-ID: from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? Etc. etc. - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 14:34:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:34:03 -0500 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: <20120104055728.4534756C@m0005298.ppops.net> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jan 4 14:58:52 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:58:52 -0500 Subject: Word Predictions for 2012 Message-ID: I predict that the terms _negative ad_ [1930?] (and its derivatives) and _Super Pac_ [1982?] will re-blossom with a vengeance among news media types. More, when it's spotted. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 15:16:00 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:16:00 +0000 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:34 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 4 15:29:25 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:29:25 -0600 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone used?" Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 4 16:47:39 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:47:39 -0600 Subject: Google books (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another discussion of the shortcomings of Google Books: http://ehbritten.blogspot.com/2011/10/cleaning-up-after-google.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 4 17:33:02 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 17:33:02 +0000 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3CD9B0@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: My understanding of "liberal democracy" is more along the lines of the Wikipedia article with that name. Wikipedia also has an article on "illiberal democracy," although it doesn't seem to be very well-sourced. I presume that "liberal" is used in the broad sense, as in "liberal thought" or "liberal arts," rather than the liberal/conservative political dichotomy. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:16 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:34 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 18:11:28 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:11:28 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040422.q040l0Rj028679@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No. The QB could throw it long and complete the pass. "Throw" does not imply "catch". DanG On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is > incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the > outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? > > VS-) > > On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > "[The quarterback] throws long and… _incompletes_." > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 18:34:32 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:34:32 -0800 Subject: Hotpot Message-ID: The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): ----- One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:38:36 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:38:36 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > No. The QB could throw it long and complete the pass. "Throw" does not > imply "catch". > DanG especially since the announcer was using "throw(ing)" before the results were known. It's like the difference between, to adapt an example from Grice, "She tried to solve the problem" (implies lack of success, although the implication is cancelable) vs. "She's trying to solve the problem" (no such implication). "He threw it long" may imply incompletion; "He's throwing long" doesn't. And "He threw it long 15 times" just implies that not all of the passes were completed, not that each of them was incomplete. I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" here. LH > > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is >> incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the >> outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> "[The quarterback] throws long and… _incompletes_." >>> >>> -- >>> -Wilson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:52:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:52:03 -0500 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms Message-ID: Pretty obvious, but there's no specific entry under _romance_ in the OED that covers the promise of those Low-T meds to allow you to enjoy "more romance when you want it". (That one is from "Ageless Male" radio commercial, but competitors have similar come-ons.) They also ask "Is your romantic life suffering?" In neither case are the commercials alluding to their prospective clients' inability to wine and dine prospective inamoratas (or inamoratos). While the OED doesn't gloss _romantic_ as 'sexual', the lemma in 5c(b), 'Desirous of or wanting love and romance. Later also: in the mood for sexual intercourse; sexually aroused; 'turned on'' flirts with it. But _romantic life_, like the earlier _love life_, may be established enough as ways to specifically signify (without mentioning) 'sex life' to merit an entry. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 18:52:25 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:52:25 -0800 Subject: Fang nu and luo hun Message-ID: 1. The word "fang nu" appeared again in the Seattle Times today, with a translation of "house slaves." A fang nu is a person whose home loan takes such a large part of their paycheck, they become like a slave working to pay it off. It seems likely this is fángnú (房奴) (http://forum.hellomandarin.com/viewthread.php?tid=58). "China's housing bubble is losing air," David Pierson, Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/13/business/la-fi-china-housing-bubble-20111213) ----- That's news to millions of Chinese for whom real estate ownership has become an obsession. The mania has cemented itself into the national zeitgeist, inspiring a wildly popular soap opera, songs and even new slang. Debt-strapped home buyers have been dubbed fang nu, or house slaves. Couples who wed without owning a home are said to have a luo hun, or a naked marriage. ----- The earliest I see this term on Google is August 21, 2007: "House slaves and brokebacks find true calling," The Standard (Reuters) (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=10&art_id=51682&sid=15017937&con_type=1&d_str=20070821) ----- Economic reforms and soaring rates of home ownership have coined a new moniker for those struggling to pay off home loans: fang nu, or "house slaves." ----- 2. Also in that first citation above is "luo hun," meaning a "naked marriage" or a no-frills marriage. It appears to be luǒhūn (裸婚) (http://www.kukuspeak.com/kouyu/huati/1482.html). The earliest I see this on Google is January 7, 2010: Chinese youth take to ‘naked weddings’, Venkatesan Vembu (http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_chinese-youth-take-to-naked-weddings_1332143) ----- “It’s not what you think,” Li says. “A luo hun (‘naked wedding’) is a ‘no-frills civil wedding’: it means getting married without a house of our own, a car, a wedding ring — or even a wedding ceremony.” ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:59:16 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: Hotpot In-Reply-To: <24B8DB9F-D1F0-4F88-BE00-E6DB4C1FEA09@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. > > The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." > > In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. > > On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). > > What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): > > ----- > One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... > > Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... > > They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. > ----- > As a longtime cat owner, on reading "cat hotpot", I first pictured a much more innocent (or at least more cat-friendly) scenario, in which the billionaire was sitting around the hotpot with some of his pet cats and unwisely decided to sample the fare. (I had a hotpot in Shanghai that included live shrimp which had to be caught and dumped in the stock before it wriggled off the plate; I'm sure that would be a favorite with kitties, although they'd probably just as soon dispense with the cooking, much less the spicy sauces.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 19:54:10 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:54:10 -0800 Subject: Hotpot In-Reply-To: <201201041859.q04INqaK000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Hotpot > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. >> >> The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." >> >> In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. >> >> On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). >> >> What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): >> >> ----- >> One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... >> >> Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... >> >> They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. >> ----- >> > > As a longtime cat owner, on reading "cat hotpot", I first pictured a much more innocent (or at least more cat-friendly) scenario, in which the billionaire was sitting around the hotpot with some of his pet cats and unwisely decided to sample the fare. (I had a hotpot in Shanghai that included live shrimp which had to be caught and dumped in the stock before it wriggled off the plate; I'm sure that would be a favorite with kitties, although they'd probably just as soon dispense with the cooking, much less the spicy sauces.) I purposely didn't put "cat hotpot" into the subject line to try to avoid that scenario :) BTW, I see that I forgot to check the ADS archives for "hot pot." As noted there, the OED has "Mongolian hot pot" under "Mongolian." The archives say that the OED has it from 1967 (Barry Popik: http://ow.ly/8ij9K), but I see it as 1992. (That post also has the spelling of "barbeque.") According to Rima McKinzey, hot pots were for sale in the Bay Area around 1967 (http://ow.ly/8iiu1). I might have missed one, but it appears the earliest the archives have it is a post from Barry Popik taking it back to 1972: http://ow.ly/8iiTV. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 20:59:41 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:59:41 -0800 Subject: Kathoey Message-ID: The OED does not have an entry on "kathoey," but it does occur twice: 1. sex - third sex: N.Y. Mag. 21 Nov. 77 He‥tracks down‥the ‘third sex’ hijras of India, the ‘lady-boy’ kathoey of Thailand, [etc.]. 2. ladyboy: Etymology: < lady n. + boy n.1 In later use, chiefly rendering Thai kathoey. This entry defines "ladyboy" as: An effeminate man; a person of indeterminate gender. Now chiefly: (esp. in Thailand) a man who adopts a feminine appearance (and may undergo breast augmentation). I wonder about the expression "indeterminate gender." Wikipedia (providing the alternative spelling "katoey" and กะเทย as the Thai spelling) says it is a third gender, not an indeterminate one. Since gender is culturally constructed, we should expect that not all genders fit into those constructed in English-speaking countries, but calling a third gender indeterminate is surely misleading. Wikipedia also notes the claim that the word "kathoey" used to mean intersexual. This is found in Peter Jackson's* "Performative Genders, Perverse Desires" (http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue9/jackson.html), which if true, means that perhaps the early OED citations belong with a separate definition. Jackson also cites himself in that article, saying that "kathoey" emerged to mean male-to-female transgender/transsexual people in the mid-1960s. Wikipedia also provides some feminizing procedures used in addition to the breasts augmentation noted in the OED, and the article says that "ladyboy" has "become popular across South East Asia." Google has more than 700K raw hits for "kathoey," including one for a book titled "The Third Sex: Kathoey: Thailand's Ladyboys" (http://www.amazon.com/Third-Sex-Kathoey-Thailands-Ladyboys/dp/0285636685), * No, not that one, fellow LoTR geeks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Jackson_(academic) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Thu Jan 5 00:27:23 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 07:27:23 +0700 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's the usual one among non-white young people in NYC, or was when I was teaching high school at the end of the 1990s at least. Interestingly, they were completely unaware of honkey. Sent from my iPad On Jan 4, 2012, at 22:29, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line > backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 > > "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football > field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone > used?" > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 04:51:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:51:35 -0500 Subject: ambulette Message-ID: While on a bus in Queens, I noticed at least three different vans labeled "Ambulette". From where I was sitting--standing, actually--all three appeared to have been handicapped transportation services (that is, transporting people in wheelchairs or those otherwise having limited mobility). A quick OneLook check confirmed it, although only InfoPlease and Dictionary.com had it and both got it from RH Unabridged. It does not appear to be in the OED. I am also not sure if the use might not be limited to the NYC metro area. I have seen it used previously, although I could not pinpoint the location. But it's not something that I've seen on regular basis in other cities. I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:31:22 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:31:22 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201041838.q04GEps0006901@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication regarding completion. So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. VS-) On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > here. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:39:14 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:39:14 -0500 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201041529.q0467h0W000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone used? Who knew that it ever was? Aren't Georgians routinely referred to as "Georgia crackers," like unto "Indiana hoosiers"? Does no one else recall the Atlanta Crackers of minor-league baseball, briefly a farm team of the St. Louis Cardinals? Tim McCarver, once the Cardinals' catcher, was called up from the Crackers, in the '60's. How about the Atlanta Black Crackers of the old Negro League? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:15:13 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:15:13 -0500 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201050027.q04KSaqI006901@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > they were completely unaware of honkey Were those students at all aware of Huey, Bobby, and the history of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense? If they weren't, then it wouldn't surprise me that they were totally unfamiliar with that organization's special lingo. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:41:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:41:31 -0500 Subject: ambulette In-Reply-To: <201201050451.q04LLYE2004831@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... Not by me! I was thinking, "A misspelling of _amulet_ by a BE speaker." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 06:47:40 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 01:47:40 -0500 Subject: dime Message-ID: I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance can't hurt. "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I believe, Oceans Eleven: "You're in Barney." "Say what?" "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" "No." Or something like that... This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) http://goo.gl/YFOVy > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > well, you're in Barney. > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. http://goo.gl/vslbu > Lesson Learned: If you’re in “barney,” you’re in trouble. This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 08:27:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:27:31 -0500 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms In-Reply-To: <201201041852.q04INqZY000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > _romantic life_ Back in the day, asking, "How's your family fife?" was gay-BE code for ascertaining whether the man addressed was also gay. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 5 14:44:33 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:44:33 -0500 Subject: ambulette In-Reply-To: <4F052C57.9010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: A mass transit vehicle, employed e.g. when there have been multiple-car accidents on the interstate, for female ambulance chasers? Joel At 1/4/2012 11:51 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >While on a bus in Queens, I noticed at least three different vans >labeled "Ambulette". From where I was sitting--standing, actually--all >three appeared to have been handicapped transportation services (that >is, transporting people in wheelchairs or those otherwise having limited >mobility). A quick OneLook check confirmed it, although only InfoPlease >and Dictionary.com had it and both got it from RH Unabridged. It does >not appear to be in the OED. > >I am also not sure if the use might not be limited to the NYC metro >area. I have seen it used previously, although I could not pinpoint the >location. But it's not something that I've seen on regular basis in >other cities. I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... > > VS-) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 5 14:54:58 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:54:58 -0600 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201050027.q04LLY8W004831@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I've been called a cracker myself, and wasn't surprised to see the word in print. I didn't particularly find that to be novel. The reason I posted was the use of "C-word" as a euphemism. First, I wouldn't think "cracker" needs a euphemism -- it doesn't seem all that offensive to me -- and second, to my mind, "C-word" refers to "cunt" (which would require a euphemism in polite speech. Not that we _aren't_ polite here, but ...) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Michael Newman > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > It's the usual one among non-white young people in NYC, or was when I was > teaching high school at the end of the 1990s at least. Interestingly, they > were completely unaware of honkey. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 4, 2012, at 22:29, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > wrote: > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------- > --- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > > Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > --- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line > > backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 > > > > "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football > > field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone > > used?" > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 5 14:58:35 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:58:35 -0500 Subject: ambulette (1980) Message-ID: Also an entry in _The Barnhart Dictionary Companion_ (Vol. 5.3-4, c. 1989). The earliest quote I had at the time was 1980. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 17:47:19 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:47:19 -0500 Subject: slow up Message-ID: I am not ranting against "slow up", but here's a comment (by Brendan Shanahan) that includes both "slow up" and "slow down". I am not entirely sure if there is supposed to be a contrast between the two. So it's mostly for the files. http://goo.gl/IgAZV > However, on this play Carcillo slows up and gets behind Gilbert just > as Gilbert begins slowing down and bracing himself for some contact, > Carcillo explodes into him causing a violent crash into the boards. [Shanahan is a retired hockey player who is now the NHL disciplinary policy enforcer.] VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Jan 5 18:07:18 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:07:18 -0500 Subject: For the backform(at)ed compound verb files Message-ID: Heard on NPR this morning about how a president "recess-appointed" someone (comparing to Obama's quasi-recess-appt of Cordray yesterday). Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 18:23:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: For the backform(at)ed compound verb files In-Reply-To: <201201051807.q05G58gN008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quasy-recess or quasy-appointment? There is some question about the former, but no doubt about the latter. VS-) On 1/5/2012 1:07 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > Heard on NPR this morning about how a president "recess-appointed" someone (comparing to Obama's quasi-recess-appt of Cordray yesterday). > > Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 19:29:34 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:29:34 -0500 Subject: This particular use of _in_ Message-ID: If you _stay in_ saying that this was a placebo effect, then I answer, "I like this placebo!" In BE, at least, it ain't nothing wrong with using _stay_ in the meanings, "continue, keep, reside in, always be," and, perhaps, in others. So, "If you stay saying…" perfectly okay. But, "… stay _in_ saying …"? Nokay. The context is a discussion of two pieces of audiophile software - or should that be, "two audiophile softwares"? - in which A writes that he hears a distinction between the outputs of X and Y and that of X is clearly superior. B writes that this erroneous opinion was merely the "placebo effect" resulting from the fact that A had had to pay for X, whereas Y is freeware. (This extension of the meaning of "placebo effect" is, IMO, also interesting.) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 21:51:01 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:51:01 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201050622.q0569bm6019055@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. DanG On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched > a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete > quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on > expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that > "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the > receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long > distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I > assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his > receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" > means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). > A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication > regarding completion. > > So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may > also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. > > VS-) > > On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > > here. LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 22:07:50 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:07:50 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201052151.q05KH1bj008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an example from GB where "throws long" does not mean overthrows. It probably means "throwing the ball a long distance". Victor noted that this was a possibility. I am posting this as a concrete illustration. 4th & Inches - Page 146 books.google.com John Paul Weier - 2006 - 164 pages - Google eBook - Preview No. 1 drops back, he has time, he throws long, and it's caught by No. 22, who cuts right to avoid a would-be tackier and gets hit from behind. On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, > although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for > long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. > DanG > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched >> a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete >> quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on >> expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that >> "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the >> receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long >> distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I >> assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his >> receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" >> means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). >> A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication >> regarding completion. >> >> So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may >> also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" >> > here. LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 5 22:48:07 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:48:07 -0600 Subject: full text databases (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Starting several years ago, Mark Mandel has hosted a web page listing full-text databases that I put together (thanks, Mark!). I finally got around to re-compiling it, and am using Google Sites to host it. This group may find it useful. I'd appreciate any feedback offered, comments, additions, suggestions, etc. It still needs a little tweaking, but is at the 90% level of completion, I'd guess. It is mostly the old list, but with additions. I've found many more student newspapers, for example. https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Let me know . . . Bill Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Jan 5 22:48:49 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:48:49 -0800 Subject: "liberal democracy" Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:16:00 zone plus 0000 (Z time?) "Shapiro, Fred" wrote: I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Your post leaves me with several questions: 1. What do you mean by "conservative democracy"? 2. If by "conservative democracy" you mean an oligopoly run by big business, then do you mean to include the word "democracy"? 3. If you construe "liberal" in the Napoleonic-era sense, then "conservative" would refer to those who prefer a monarchial or aristocratic goverment, in which case "conservative democracy" is an oxymoron. 4. If you construe "conservative" (as many people do) as pro-business, then the corresponding definition of "liberal" is "pro-xxx" or perhaps "anti-xxx". What should "xxx" be? 5. Would the US be "very happy" with a liberal democracy (your definition) in Korea? 6. As there is a possibility that North Korea will become part of the existing South Korea, we need a statement as to how to classify the existing government in South Korea. 7. Does the fact that the United States does NOT have either direct or parliamentary aelection of the executive mean that that the United States is not a democracy? - James A. Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Jan 5 23:16:18 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:16:18 -0800 Subject: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Message-ID: The second paragraph of today's George Will column contains an "axiom" which I have never heard before: Rick Santorum has become central because Iowa Republicans ignored an axiom that is as familiar as it is false: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Republicans, supposedly hierarchical, actually are — let us say the worst — human. They crave fun. Supporting Mitt Romney still seems to many like a duty, the responsible thing to do. Suddenly, supporting Santorum seems like a lark, partly because a week or so ago he could quit complaining about media neglect and start having fun, which is infectious. Has anybody heard this proverb (or whatever) before? The closest I can think of is a line by (I think) Tip O'Neil. He was delivering a set of FACETIOUS "Republicans do x, Democrats do y" statements, and ended with something like "Democrats believe in sex. That's why there are more Democrats than Republicans". WARNING to anyone intending to read this particular George Will column---only the first part is amusing. The last part is a polemic. - James A. Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 00:21:43 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:21:43 -0500 Subject: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. In-Reply-To: <201201052316.q05KH1jf008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: James A. Landau asked about a phrase in a recent George Will column. Barry Popik examined the phrase. Below is a link to his webpage on the topic. Bill Clinton was a locus for popularization though he did not claim coinage. “Democrats fall in love; Republicans fall in line” Entry from January 01, 2010 Short link: http://goo.gl/Wy3yq Long link: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/democrats_fall_in_love_republicans_fall_in_line/ Garson > The second paragraph of today's George Will column contains an "axiom" which I have never heard before: > > > Rick Santorum has become central because Iowa Republicans ignored an axiom that is as familiar as it is false: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Republicans, supposedly hierarchical, actually are — let us say the worst — human. They crave fun. Supporting Mitt Romney still seems to many like a duty, the responsible thing to do. Suddenly, supporting Santorum seems like a lark, partly because a week or so ago he could quit complaining about media neglect and start having fun, which is infectious. > > > Has anybody heard this proverb (or whatever) before? > > The closest I can think of is a line by (I think) Tip O'Neil. He was delivering a set of FACETIOUS "Republicans do x, Democrats do y" statements, and ended with something like "Democrats believe in sex. That's why there are more Democrats than Republicans". > > WARNING to anyone intending to read this particular George Will column---only the first part is amusing. The last part is a polemic. > > - James A. Landau > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 00:46:45 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches Message-ID: Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". http://goo.gl/rdp6u > The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different > words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization > doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT > industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such > as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile > management'. > However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization > solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is > managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a > distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and > application layers. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 01:07:14 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:07:14 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that -- "Throwing long" can mean one of two things, "throwing a long pass" (might or might not be caught) or "overthrowing a receiver" (is not caught). Ditto for "throwing short". "Throwing deep" can mean only one thing, "throwing a long pass" (but it might or might not be caught). Joel At 1/5/2012 05:07 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >Here is an example from GB where "throws long" does not mean >overthrows. It probably means "throwing the ball a long distance". >Victor noted that this was a possibility. I am posting this as a >concrete illustration. > >4th & Inches - Page 146 >books.google.com >John Paul Weier - 2006 - 164 pages - Google eBook - Preview >No. 1 drops back, he has time, he throws long, and it's caught by No. >22, who cuts right to avoid a would-be tackier and gets hit from >behind. > >On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, > > although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for > > long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. > > DanG > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched > >> a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete > >> quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on > >> expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that > >> "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the > >> receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long > >> distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I > >> assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his > >> receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" > >> means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). > >> A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication > >> regarding completion. > >> > >> So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may > >> also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > >> > here. LH > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:22:02 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:22:02 +0000 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms Message-ID: fife????? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Wilson Gray To: Date: Thursday, January 5, 2012 3:27:31 AM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > _romantic life_ Back in the day, asking, "How's your family fife?" was gay-BE code for ascertaining whether the man addressed was also gay. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:37:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:37:28 -0500 Subject: cheap shot/dirty play Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:53:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:53:35 -0500 Subject: calico Message-ID: Seems more than a bit out of date: > 3. b. Coloured in a way suggestive of printed calico; variegated, > piebald. Chiefly of horses. Also as n., a calico horse. /U.S./ The latest quote is from 1954. > 1954 J. Potts /Go, Lovely Rose/ (1955) ix. 60 Havelka's calico cat ... > was taking a fastidious stroll. It's the only one that mentions a calico cat, even though this may now be the dominant use (as opposed to horses). In fact, calico (not just "calico cat") is now common in reports on cats of variegated or partially striped coloring--and there are a lot more calico cats around than calico horses. But there is more: http://goo.gl/p6zm7 > While white appears to be the most rare at an estimated 1 in 100 > million, coming in second place with and approximate 1 in 30 million > is the calico lobster. I’m very happy to announce we’ve recently > receive a stunningly beautiful calico lobster from our friends at > Chatham Fish and Lobster Co. Is there a particular reason why there is no calico adj. that corresponds to calico n. 3.? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 02:05:46 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:05:46 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime Message-ID: But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? Gerald Cohen Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I believe, Oceans Eleven: "You're in Barney." "Say what?" "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" "No." Or something like that... This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) http://goo.gl/YFOVy > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > well, you're in Barney. > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. http://goo.gl/vslbu > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 6 02:11:02 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 18:11:02 -0800 Subject: from my inbox Message-ID: Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream is now available in Israel in the following flavors: Wailing Wallnut Moishemellow Mazel Toffee Chazalnut Oy Ge-malt Mi Ka-mocha Bernard Malamint Berry Pr'i Hagafen Choc-Eilat Chip Simchas T'Oreo It should be noted that all of these flavors come in either a cup or a Cohen _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:22:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:22:26 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: � � � Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. � He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. � Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >> � � pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him >> � � for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >> � � says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off >> � � the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. >> > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> well, you're in Barney. >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:48:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:48:35 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the finer points. VS-) On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:59:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:59:23 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060046.q05G55hn016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". And, in addition, being amazingly pretentious in the attempt. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:18:43 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:18:43 -0500 Subject: resurface Message-ID: Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": http://goo.gl/3yKYL Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the surface (again). There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but transitive (making something appear after an absence). Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it cleaner? Of the OneLook dictionaries, only Collins goes there: > 1. (intr) to arise or occur again --> "the problem resurfaced" > 2. (intr) to rise or cause to rise again to the surface > 3. (tr) to supply (something) with a new surface Not sure why 2. is "intr" if it covers both "to rise" and "to cause to rise". A few others mention "re-emerge", "reappear" or "re-occur" meaning, but not "make reappear". AHD and MW match the OED. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 03:25:14 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:25:14 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime Message-ID: But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. Very much so. There's the rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher's" from "butcher's hook" = a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a graded fashion, like stairs. Gerald Cohen Message from Wilson Gray, Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender:    American Dialect Society > Poster:    "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject:    Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense.  He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble.  Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >>   pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him >>   for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >>   says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off >>   the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. >> > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> well, you're in Barney. >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 03:30:15 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:30:15 -0800 Subject: Sleep-text, texter Message-ID: Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long it will be before a politician claims that their "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I find on Google, searching back to 2000. "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) ----- It was the fact I was “sleep-texting” that freaked me out. ----- Comment on that page: March 17, 2006 by Stuart ----- its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me right now actually – i found it hilarious, she woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. ----- 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) This article has a cornucopia of forms. ----- Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden Valley and one of a small but growing number of cellphone users who say they sometimes sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or professional damage, said Kramer, who has about a dozen patients who have become concerned about sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:37:38 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060325.q05KH15N008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Is it still Cockney rhyming slang if proper cockneys never said it? DanG On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. Very much so. There's the > rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher's" > from "butcher's hook" = a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." > And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, > e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), > with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a > graded fashion, like stairs. > > Gerald Cohen > > Message from Wilson Gray, Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: > > This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender:    American Dialect Society > > Poster:    "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject:    Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense.  He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble.  Or do I remember it wrong? > > Gerald Cohen > > > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > > believe, Oceans Eleven: > > "You're in Barney." > > "Say what?" > > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > > "No." > > > > Or something like that... > > > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > >> > >>   pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > >>   for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > >>   says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > >>   the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > >> > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > >> well, you're in Barney. > >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > > > VS-) > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:59:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:59:07 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060046.q05G55hn016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one > trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on January 5, 2012). This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey K. Pullum about this question. This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this topic I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow [Begin excerpt] The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for snow. In fact, the Eskimo–Aleut languages have about the same number of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] [End excerpt] [Continuation of Victor's post] > http://goo.gl/rdp6u >> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >> management'. >> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >> application layers. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 05:17:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:17:05 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060359.q062OxQd024145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000405.html On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Garson O'Toole > Subject: � � � Re: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >> Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one >> trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". > > The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is > contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on > January 5, 2012). > > This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in > languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a > distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey > K. Pullum about this question. > > This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. > It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this > topic I think. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow > > [Begin excerpt] > The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception > alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for > snow. In fact, the Eskimo泡leut languages have about the same number > of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In > contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, > do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] > [End excerpt] > > [Continuation of Victor's post] >> http://goo.gl/rdp6u >>> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >>> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >>> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >>> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >>> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >>> management'. >>> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >>> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >>> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >>> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >>> application layers. >> >> � � VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 05:07:59 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:07:59 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060338.q05KH15l008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As Smart might have asked, "Well, would you accept Cockney-_style_ rhyming slang?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Dan Goncharoff > Subject: � � � Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is it still Cockney rhyming slang if proper cockneys never said it? > > > DanG > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrot= > e: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: � � � American Dialect Society >> Poster: � � � "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: � � � Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. � Very much so. � There's the >> rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher'= > s" >> from "butcher's hook" =3D a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." >> And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, >> e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), >> with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a >> graded fashion, like stairs. >> >> Gerald Cohen >> >> Message from Wilson Gray, � Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: >> >> This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: =C2 � =C2 � =C2 � American Dialect Society > >> > Poster: =C2 � =C2 � =C2 � "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> > Subject: =C2 � =C2 � =C2 Barney Rubble. ---was: dime >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> > >> > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. =C2 He's the character in = > the >> Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was >> always getting into trouble. =C2 Or do I remember it wrong? >> > Gerald Cohen >> > >> > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> > >> > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >> > believe, Oceans Eleven: >> > "You're in Barney." >> > "Say what?" >> > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >> > "No." >> > >> > Or something like that... >> > >> > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" >> > >> > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >> >> >> =C2 � =C2 � pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs= > � him >> >> =C2 � =C2 � for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >> >> =C2 � =C2 � says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grea= > se off >> >> =C2 � =C2 � the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X dama= > ge. >> >> >> > >> > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!= > ) >> > >> > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> >> well, you're in Barney. >> >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. >> > >> > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. >> > >> > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear >> > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). >> > >> > VS-) >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 6 05:41:24 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:41:24 -0800 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year Message-ID: We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, and the nominees have now been posted: http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 06:48:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:48:36 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201060551.q05G55rN016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Since Arab Spring has been nominated among those Most Likely to Succeed, I thought I'd ask--has anyone else noticed the creep of terms that riff on the "spring" theme but substitute something else for "Arab"? Obviously, searching for such things would be counterproductive, but if you're aware of their existence, perhaps you're more likely to notice them. VS-) On 1/6/2012 12:41 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, > and the nominees have now been posted: > > http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted > > Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 06:50:22 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:50:22 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060529.q05KH1D3008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000405.html Thanks for your response Wilson. When I wrote that the Wikipedia article "cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey K. Pullum" I was referring to reference number 1 in the Wikipedia article. Reference number 1 contains precisely the useful link that you have given above. I read this Language Log post a few years ago, and again before I posted. > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender:    American Dialect Society >> Poster:    Garson O'Toole >> Subject:    Re: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Victor Steinbok wrote: >>> >>> Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one >>> trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". >> >> The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is >> contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on >> January 5, 2012). >> >> This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in >> languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a >> distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey >> K. Pullum about this question. >> >> This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. >> It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this >> topic I think. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception >> alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for >> snow. In fact, the Eskimo泡leut languages have about the same number >> of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In >> contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, >> do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] >> [End excerpt] >> >> [Continuation of Victor's post] >>> http://goo.gl/rdp6u >>>> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >>>> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >>>> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >>>> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >>>> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >>>> management'. >>>> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >>>> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >>>> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >>>> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >>>> application layers. >>> >>>   VS-) >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 6 08:29:06 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:29:06 -0800 Subject: resurface In-Reply-To: <201201060318.q062OxQ3024145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED2 does have the relevant transitive sense for "surface", defined as "to bring to public notice" (originally in the sense "to produce or expose (a defector, spy, etc.).", from 1955 in American usage). Perhaps the editors didn't find enough evidence to warrant drafting a corresponding "re-" form in the OED3 entry for "resurface". --bgz On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": > > http://goo.gl/3yKYL > Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney > > This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for > re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the > surface (again). > > There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, > arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from > the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but > transitive (making something appear after an absence). > > Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it > cleaner? > > Of the OneLook dictionaries, only Collins goes there: > > > 1. (intr) to arise or occur again --> "the problem resurfaced" > > 2. (intr) to rise or cause to rise again to the surface > > 3. (tr) to supply (something) with a new surface > > Not sure why 2. is "intr" if it covers both "to rise" and "to cause to > rise". A few others mention "re-emerge", "reappear" or "re-occur" > meaning, but not "make reappear". AHD and MW match the OED. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 6 15:03:29 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:03:29 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10p008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Fred Flintstone = Ralph Kramden (Jackie Gleason) Barney Rubble = Ed Norton (Art Carney) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:06 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > > well, you're in Barney. > > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 15:14:43 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:14:43 +0800 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't recall Barney Rubble being particularly bellicose. (Mel Blanc's guttural guffaw is what I mostly remember, plus the Ed Norton hommage.) Anyway, in Cockney rhymes, there must be no relationship between the meanings of the plain-form and its encryption, otherwise the cat would be out of the bag. Probably, therefore: (1) there must have been an older, late 19th century Cockney rhyming formula (sort of like a defective fanqie): x(barney) + y(?) < z(?), where the long-lost y and z had to have rhymed. I take the liberty of proffering a possible reconstruction: *{a barny wife, strife} (cf. barney 1865 ‘cheating’ slang OED). (Barny sounds like bonnie in 19th c. E Londonese?) (2) Through hemiteleia, a further encryption took place, effacing the rhyme word (y), resulting in a naked barney. With the loss of both source and rhyme, the isolated barney eventually became etymologically opaque; o.o.o. in Partridgese. (3) Because of the etymological opacity of barney, its form became folk-etymologically associated with a modern, familiar Barney: {Barney Rubble, trouble}. It could just as well be updated to *{Barney Gumble, a rumble}. QED, QEF, and QE2. The multitudinous possibilities for offending every Barney in the world should include: *{Barney Fife, a knife}; *{Barney Frank, a tank}; *{Barney Miller, Godziller}; {Barney Google, a padoogle}; *{Bjarni Jonnson, Wisconsin}; ect., &c, and excetra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming_slang: <> Add Michael Caine as a rhyme slanger. The Flintstones tv show 1960-66: "...When you're with the Flintstones, have a yabbadabbadoo time, a dabbadoo time, you'll have a gay old time!" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flintstones#Music: << ...melody is derived from part of the 'B' section of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 17 Movement 2, composed in 1801/02)>>. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 15:27:50 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:27:50 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <4F066103.4090502@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/5/2012 09:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a >simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got >in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the >finer points. If there were any finer points to miss, I missed them. (The only one may be the takeoff on Kramden and Norton.) But Victor has the characterizations right, I think. While Fred initiated the trouble, Barney generally was sucked in. So "you're in Rubble trouble" may mean "you're in a mess that your witlessness and gullibility got you into." Joel > VS-) > >On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in >>the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, >>Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? >>Gerald Cohen >> >>Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> >>To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >>believe, Oceans Eleven: >>"You're in Barney." >>"Say what?" >>"Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >>"No." >> >>Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Jan 6 15:57:13 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:57:13 +0000 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201061527.q0667q5Z027562@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not necessarily related, but I recall (perhaps inaccurately) the the Valley-talking girls in the motion picture _Clueless_ (1995) referred to unattractive males generically as Barneys. Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 1/5/2012 09:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a >simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got >in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the >finer points. If there were any finer points to miss, I missed them. (The only one may be the takeoff on Kramden and Norton.) But Victor has the characterizations right, I think. While Fred initiated the trouble, Barney generally was sucked in. So "you're in Rubble trouble" may mean "you're in a mess that your witlessness and gullibility got you into." Joel > VS-) > >On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in >>the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, >>Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? >>Gerald Cohen >> >>Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> >>To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >>believe, Oceans Eleven: >>"You're in Barney." >>"Say what?" >>"Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >>"No." >> >>Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 16:16:26 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:16:26 -0500 Subject: Sleep-text, texter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. Joel At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > >I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long >it will be before a politician claims that their >"sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > >1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I >find on Google, searching back to 2000. > >"Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > >----- >It was the fact I was “sleep-texting” that freaked me out. >----- > >Comment on that page: > >March 17, 2006 by Stuart >----- >its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me >right now actually ­ i found it hilarious, she >woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. >----- > >2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's >zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson >(http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > >This article has a cornucopia of forms. > >----- >Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. > >"Sometimes the texts make sense, other times >it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior >at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden >Valley and one of a small but growing number of >cellphone users who say they sometimes >sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. > >"You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > >But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > >Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or >professional damage, said Kramer, who has about >a dozen patients who have become concerned about >sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > >Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she >hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." > >Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people >are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. >----- > >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 18:03:31 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:03:31 -0800 Subject: Sleep-text, texter In-Reply-To: <201201061616.q0667qBs011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but never the verb phone. But, like everything else in the universe, it's on Google. BB On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > Joel > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). >> >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long >> it will be before a politician claims that their >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." >> >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. >> >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) >> >> ----- >> It was the fact I was „sleep-texting‰ that freaked me out. >> ----- >> >> Comment on that page: >> >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart >> ----- >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me >> right now actually – i found it hilarious, she >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. >> ----- >> >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) >> >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. >> >> ----- >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. >> >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of >> cellphone users who say they sometimes >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. >> >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. >> >> But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. >> >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. >> >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." >> >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 18:14:18 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:14:18 -0800 Subject: Continents in the OED Message-ID: There is a good video on YouTube pointing out that the way the continents is defined is arbitrary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34&feature=player_embedded), essentially a matter of convenience. The OED does an elegant job of avoiding the traps that the video talks about, but the explanatory text (the part after the first sentence) is now out of date: ----- One of the main continuous bodies of land on the earth's surface. Formerly two continents were reckoned, the Old and the New; the former comprising Europe, Asia, and Africa, which form one continuous mass of land; the latter, North and South America, forming another. (These two continents are strictly islands, distinguished only by their extent.) Now it is usual to reckon four or five continents, Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, North and South; the great island of Australia is sometimes reckoned as another, and geographers have speculated on the existence of an Antarctic Continent. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 18:48:49 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:48:49 -0600 Subject: FW: Texas demonym series continues, makes D magazine ("What do you call a person in Texas from...?") Message-ID: Dear members of ans-l and ads-l, Barry Popik sent the message below to several people, and with his permission I now share it with our two listservs. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: Barry Popik [mailto:bapopik at aol.com] Sent: Fri 1/6/2012 1:42 AM There are now about a hundred Texas demonyms, all researched with historical citations. I'll be ending this thing in a few days, unless it makes news and I get further research suggestions from fellow Texans. There are lots and lots of small towns with fewer than 1,000 residents, and I can't do all of 'em. ... It helps to have a good-sized city with a good online newspaper to do this. ... Merriam-Webster online had about ten of these, mostly for major cities (Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, Amarillo, Pasadena, Wichita Falls, plus Athens, Carthage, Palestine, Paris), not with dated citations, of course...M-W has nothing for Palm Springs (CA) and Colorado Springs (CO), so, of course, Big Spring (TX) and Dripping Springs (TX) are difficult...Temple has me stumped, as does Commerce and Pharr...Alpine seems to have Alpiner and Alpinite, but there's just a handful of cites...I'm not sure if people from Mesquite are Mesquiters...Maybe I'll do Flower Mound today. ... Anyway, I was suprised to see a mention in D Magazine today. See below. ... As some of you know, I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease in 2011 and I'm on a Remicade treatment. I'm not getting any worse ... Barry Popik Austin, TX www.barrypopik.com ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entries/ Katyite (inhabitant of Katy) Lake Jacksonite (inhabitant of Lake Jackson) Weslacoan (inhabitant of Weslaco) Wichitan (inhabitant of Wichita Falls) Victorian (inhabitant of Victoria, Texas) Pasadenan (inhabitant of Pasadena) Port Arthuran or Port Arthurian (inhabitant of Port Arthur) Grapeviner (inhabitant of Grapevine) Harlingenite (inhabitant of Harlingen) Gilmerite (inhabitant of Gilmer) Denisonian (inhabitant of Denison) Shermanite (inhabitant of Sherman) Baytownian (inhabitant of Baytown) Baytowner (inhabitant of Baytown) Kerrvillian (inhabitant of Kerrville) Kerrvillite (inhabitant of Kerrville) Corsicanan (inhabitant of Corsicana) Lulingite (inhabitant of Luling) Ciscoan (inhabitant of Cisco) Missionite (inhabitant of Mission) Sugar Lander (inhabitant of Sugar Land) Mexiaite (inhabitant of Mexia) Shinerite (inhabitant of Shiner) Dentonite (inhabitant of Denton) Waxahachian (inhabitant of Waxahachie) Texarkanian (inhabitant of Texarkana) Pflugervillian (inhabitant of Pflugerville) Round Rocker (inhabitant of Round Rock) Uvaldean (inhabitant of Uvalde) Wimberleyite (inhabitant of Wimberley) Pecosite (inhabitant of Pecos) Carthaginian (inhabitant of Carthage, Texas) Athenian (inhabitant of Athens, Texas) Parisian (inhabitant of Paris, Texas) Cedar Hillbillies (inhabitants of Cedar Hill) Arlingtonite (inhabitant of Arlington) Arlingtonian (inhabitant of Arlington) Bryanite (inhabitant of Bryan) Longviewite (inhabitant of Longview) Tylerite (inhabitant of Tyler) Killeenite (inhabitant of Killeen) Cedar Parker (inhabitant of Cedar Park) Leanderite (inhabitant of Leander) Leander (summary) Leanderthal (inhabitant of Leander) Nacogdochean or Nacogdochian (inhabitant of Nacogdoches) Grand Prairian (inhabitant of Grand Prairie) Planoite (inhabitant of Plano) Beaumonter (inhabitant of Beaumont) Fredericksburger (inhabitant of Fredericksburg) Del Rioan (inhabitant of Del Rio) Eagle Passan (inhabitant of Eagle Pass) Bee Caver (inhabitant of Bee Cave) Nederlander (inhabitant of Nederland) Seguinite (inhabitant of Seguin) New Braunfelser (inhabitant of New Braunfels) Crockettite (inhabitant of Crockett) Llanoite (inhabitant of Llano) Llanoan (inhabitant of Llano) Taylorite (inhabitant of Taylor) Huttoan (inhabitant of Hutto) Georgetowner (inhabitant of Georgetown) Marfan (inhabitant of Marfa) Marfaite (inhabitant of Marfa) San Marcan (inhabitant of San Marcos) Palestinian (inhabitant of Palestine, Texas) Lufkinite (inhabitant of Lufkin) Bastropian (inhabitant of Bastrop) San Angeloan (inhabitant of San Angelo) Brownsvillian (inhabitant of Brownsville) McAllenite (inhabitant of McAllen) Lubbockite (inhabitant of Lubbock) Laredoan (inhabitant of Laredo) Abilenian (inhabitant of Abilene) Odessan (inhabitant of Odessa) Midlander (inhabitant of Midland) Fort Worthian (inhabitant of Fort Worth) Fort Worther (inhabitant of Fort Worth) Amarilloan (inhabitant of Amarillo) Corpus Christian (inhabitant of Corpus Christi) Galvestonian (inhabitant of Galveston) Wacoite (inhabitant of Waco) Wacoan (inhabitant of Waco) El Pasoan (inhabitant of El Paso) Houstonian (inhabitant of Houston) Dallasite (inhabitant of Dallas) San Antonian (inhabitant of San Antonio) Austinite (inhabitant of Austin) ... http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2012/01/05/are-we-dallasites-or-dallasonians-fort-worthers-or-fort-worthians-etymology-tells-us-who-we-are/ Are We Dallasites or Dallasonians? Fort Worthers or Fort Worthians? Etymology Tells Us Who We Are Posted on January 5th, 2012 4:26pm by Jason Heid Filed under Awesome Things, Local News Barry Popik, a lawyer in Austin, likes words. He spends a lot of time researching the history of familiar phrases. He once went to great lengths to convince Nancy that hamburgers weren't invented in Texas. He has a website on which he discusses the etymology of a host of terms, posts photos of himself with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and otherwise makes it clear that his intellect is superior to yours. Part of his site is devoted to assembling a "Lone Star Dictionary," and lately he's been adding to it with a series of posts about the history of terms for referring to the inhabitants of specific geographic locations. I'm sorry to say that "Dallasite" appears to be the only legitimate option for those of here in the region's biggest city. Residents of Fort Worth have two options: "Fort Worthian" or "Fort Worther." My favorite discovery on the site is that "Cedar Hillbillies" is apparently a real thing. But I was bowled over when I read the entry about my own hometown and its "Dentonites." While the citations on most of his posts are fairly dull and taken from Wikipedia and its sources, the entry for Denton sees fit to cite the Urban Dictionary: Dentonite n. One who exhibits all or many signs of Dentonitis, a common condition mainly affecting born citizens of Denton, Texas and a high number of move-in residents. Major symptoms include poor hygiene, low neural activity, strong aversion toward conversation of any kind, and/or total absence of emotion, as well as a very exclusive interest in five or more of the following things: Indoors, video games, fast food, cigarettes, concrete, indoors, television, facebook, indoors, beer, pot, youtube, indoors. I have seen the affliction too many times myself merely to laugh this off. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 6 19:43:19 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:43:19 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E07391E@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Several Hanna-Barbera cartoons were modeled after successful live-action TV shows. "Top Cat," for instance, is an animated version of the "The Phil Silvers Show" (Sgt. Bilko). -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:03 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Fred Flintstone = Ralph Kramden (Jackie Gleason) Barney Rubble = Ed Norton (Art Carney) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:06 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > > well, you're in Barney. > > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 19:54:07 2012 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:54:07 -0500 Subject: resurface In-Reply-To: <201201060839.q0667qxY009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recall a comic strip from N years ago. Scene: a school. Announcement coming over the PA system. (My text here is no doubt much different from the original, but the structural point is retained.) (frame 1) With the recent spate of rainy weather, I know that many of you have been concerned about the resurfacing of the parking lot. (frame 2) But the forecast is clear and sunny for all of next week, and we are hopeful that the parking lot will eventually resurface. This works, of course, because the intransitive and subjectless transitive senses merge in the gerund construction "V-ing of NP". Mark Mandel On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > OED2 does have the relevant transitive sense for "surface", defined as > "to bring to public notice" (originally in the sense "to produce or > expose (a defector, spy, etc.).", from 1955 in American usage). > Perhaps the editors didn't find enough evidence to warrant drafting a > corresponding "re-" form in the OED3 entry for "resurface". > > --bgz > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > > > Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": > > > > http://goo.gl/3yKYL > > Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney > > > > This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for > > re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the > > surface (again). > > > > There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, > > arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from > > the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but > > transitive (making something appear after an absence). > > > > Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it > > cleaner? > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 6 20:10:18 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape Message-ID: >From the e-OED: 2. Thesaurus > a. Originally and chiefly: the act or crime, committed by a man, of forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse with him against her will, esp. by means of threats or violence. In later use more generally: the act of forced, non-consenting, or illegal sexual intercourse with another person; sexual violation or assault. The precise legal definition of rape has varied over time and between legal systems. Historically, rape was considered to be the act of a man forcing a woman other than his wife to have intercourse against her will, but recently the definition has broadened. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, in the United Kingdom the crime of rape includes the penile penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person of either sex, where consent to the act has not been given. This includes marital rape: in 1992 the House of Lords, in its judicial capacity, decided that the previous understanding (i.e. that a wife had given an irrevocable consent to intercourse) was no longer part of the law. Sexual penetration of a child under the age of 13 also constitutes rape irrespective of whether consent is obtained. In the United States the precise criminal definition of rape varies from state to state. date, gay, male, statutory rape, etc.: see the first element. Looks to me like Britain got there way before us in the US. Maybe this will be the Legal WOTY for 2012. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Fri Jan 6 20:38:56 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: Butt-dialing (was Sleep-texting) In-Reply-To: <201201061616.q0667qL2009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My son talked about how he "accidentally butt-dialed" someone, which prompted me to speculate about the skills required for butt-dialing someone on purpose. Neal On Jan 6, 2012, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Sleep-text, texter > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Jan 7 00:16:28 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 18:16:28 -0600 Subject: Words for Wind-sounds Message-ID: On another list, the following question has been posed, and I was wondering if anyone on this list has any suggestions. ****** If wind is blowing gently through trees (up to, say, Force 4 on the Beaufort Scale) it is specifically said*to sough*. The noun has other meanings, but the verb is pretty much restricted to the gentle sound of air moving through leaves and branches (it can also refer to equally gentle movement of water in a streambed, but nothing else, and I don't think I've ever seen or heard it actually used in that sense). But there do*not* seem to be equally specific English verbs for the noise stronger wind makes blowing through trees, either in (say) Forces 5-8 or 9-12. (Or I'm blanking on them completely.) Instead we get metaphors, with strong winds howling, moaning, shrieking, or screaming. Writers of age-of-sail fiction are also fond of a musical metaphor, referring to the 'threnody' of stormwinds in rigging -- but I'm assured by one as knows that with the cat's-cradle of ropework on a square-rigged ship a storm can produce a strange atonal chorus of noise, and I take that phenomenon to be specifically marine. (The literal meaning of threnody, a lament, may also make the metaphor attractive to the age-of-sail writers, or they may just be following C. S. Forester and Patrick O'Brian.) What verb/s would you use to describe the sound of moderate and strong winds through trees, or, I suppose, cabling&c. in more urban environments? Pretty much everyone's heard those noises, but how best to write them down? The breeze soughed through the trees. The stiff wind ? through the trees. The storm/gale ? though the trees. The hurricane ? through the trees. ****** Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 00:52:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:52:29 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201062010.q0667qac011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is no unified definition of rape in the US so the statement suggesting that "Britain got there way before us" really lacks foundation. The states' definitions of rape that removed the actual force element range from the 1960s to the 1990s, but, at this point, most if not all states have a broad definition of rape where there is 1a) penetration of of the orifices with a penis or 1b) penetration of vagina or anus with a foreign object 2a) with a person who does not consent or 2b) with a person who is not capable to express consent (statutory rape). I really don't think it is it accurate to say that Britain got there first--if anything, they are late-comers. Recently, there has been a major legal flareup when a judge suggested that a rape case in his court lacked the element of force. The definition of rape has been evolving at least since the 1920s and the majority of rape cases tried in US courts today (or plea-bargained before trial) would have been laughed out of court in the 1890. Changing statutory definitions, however, has proved to be far easier than changing prevailing attitudes. At least three of the remaining six Republican candidates expressed their believe in the fictional status of date rape within the last 10 days. VS-) PS: Now, if you bring up the changes that involve "battered spouse" and the corresponding legal remedies, those changes are far more recent. On 1/6/2012 3:10 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > From the e-OED: > > 2. > a. Originally and chiefly: the act or crime, committed by a man, of > forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse with him against her will, esp. > by means of threats or violence. In later use more generally: the act of > forced, non-consenting, or illegal sexual intercourse with another person; > sexual violation or assault. > > The precise legal definition of rape has varied over time and between legal > systems. Historically, rape was considered to be the act of a man forcing a > woman other than his wife to have intercourse against her will, but recently > the definition has broadened. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, in the > United Kingdom the crime of rape includes the penile penetration of the > vagina, anus, or mouth of another person of either sex, where consent to the > act has not been given. This includes marital rape: in 1992 the House of > Lords, in its judicial capacity, decided that the previous understanding > (i.e. that a wife had given an irrevocable consent to intercourse) was no > longer part of the law. Sexual penetration of a child under the age of 13 > also constitutes rape irrespective of whether consent is obtained. In the > United States the precise criminal definition of rape varies from state to > state. > > date, gay, male, statutory rape, etc.: see the first element. > > Looks to me like Britain got there way before us in the US. > > Maybe this will be the Legal WOTY for 2012. > > Regards, > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 01:39:42 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:39:42 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201070052.q06Mkuoq011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > under the age of 13 Is there a "United" state in which the age of consent is lower than fourteen? FWIW, there was a case on the Maury Show in which DNA-testing showed that a ten-year-old boy was indeed the father of the child born to a twelve-year-old girl. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 7 02:35:51 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: Butt-dialing (was Sleep-texting) In-Reply-To: <069233D5-0B35-40E9-A2F3-BF562FA6AF77@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Ah, well, redundancy abounds in human language, and in this case it seems clear enough that the speaker wanted to stress that his calling had not been intentional. On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > My son talked about how he "accidentally butt-dialed" someone, which prompted me to speculate about the skills required for butt-dialing someone on purpose. > > Neal > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Sleep-text, texter >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than >> butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. >> >> Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 04:21:31 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:21:31 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201070140.q06JwfIm009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's not a trivial question. But the interesting part is that some states have lower age for legal marriage than the age of consent. BTW, I was not responsible for that line--it came from an earlier post. One more thing--David's initial post was undoubtedly in response to the change in /Federal/ definition of rape, which has a fairly limited application. One version of the story is here http://goo.gl/61V5a > On Friday, the Justice Department did something it hasn’t done since > 1929: it changed the definition of rape. > For over 80 years, for the purposes of crime collection data, rape was > defined as forcible male penile penetration of a female. This excluded > a vast number of sexual crimes including oral and anal penetration, or > instances when a victim was unable to give consent. The new definition > makes up for these oversights. It also expands the definition to > reflect that anyone -- male, female, or transgender -- can be a victim > of rape. The change has long been made at state level, but not in federal reporting data. I am not even sure any laws had been changed. From the story it seems more like they changed the statistical category definition to match the predominant statutory definitions. So, likely, there is a bit less here than meets the eye. Because the statistics are collected by the DOJ, it makes it sound as if this is a law change, which I don't think it is. VS-) On 1/6/2012 8:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> under the age of 13 > Is there a "United" state in which the age of consent is lower than fourteen? > > FWIW, there was a case on the Maury Show in which DNA-testing showed > that a ten-year-old boy was indeed the father of the child born to a > twelve-year-old girl. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 7 04:13:41 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:13:41 -0800 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, > and the nominees have now been posted: > > http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted > > Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms And the winner is... "occupy". http://www.americandialect.org/occupy-is-the-2011-word-of-the-year Full press release, with winners in the various categories, is here: http://www.americandialect.org/2011-Word-of-the-Year-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 05:22:09 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 00:22:09 -0500 Subject: Continents in the OED In-Reply-To: <201201061814.q0667qQO011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the way the continents is defined is arbitrary "… the continents ,,,"? The _races_, right? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 7 08:22:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 00:22:30 -0800 Subject: Continents in the OED In-Reply-To: <201201070543.q075a3iv001349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> the way the continents is defined is arbitrary > > "… the continents ,,,"? > > The _races_, right? As far as continents go, the video makes it clear that the enumeration is arbitrary and no definition will satisfy common usage. Like race, the concept of continent seems to be based on historical geopolitical circumstance. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 09:11:47 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 04:11:47 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping Message-ID: Here's another word I've never heard--legal and helicopter-parenting jargon, I suppose. http://goo.gl/y4XV6 > The Utah Court of Appeals has refused to dismiss charges in the > controversial case of a South Jordan couple accused of killing their > baby by sleeping with him -- their second child to die in their bed. > The appeals judges sided with a lower court in a pair of opinions > released Friday, saying that even though a state medical examiner > listed the official cause of death as "undetermined," there was enough > evidence that "co-sleeping" caused the baby to suffocate to put the > parents on trial for child abuse homicide and reckless endangerment. > ... > At 3½ months, he was too young to roll over on his own, evidence that > "supports a reasonable inference that Merrill actually caused the > infant to stop breathing by co-sleeping," according to Friday’s opinion. > The parents were said to be heavy sleepers, and a pediatrician warned > them against co-sleeping a day before the child’s death. This is not without precedent. The OED has both co-sleeping n. and co-sleep v. from 1966. Wordnik has several citations, including some with co-sleep and some with co-sleeper. OED does not have co-sleeper either in the sense of a special co-sleeping crib or in the sense of parent and child who are co-sleeping. http://goo.gl/4UqvJ Co-sleeping's deadly risk > Last year will be remembered for a number of things, but what should > stick in people's minds is the number of deaths resulting from > co-sleeping. The very mention of the word causes people to take sides > and offer opinions. > There are those who believe that co-sleeping is a wonderful experience > between mother and child, allowing for bonding. By definition, > co-sleeping involves the child sharing a sleep surface with the parent > or parents, instead of being placed in his or her own bed. There are a > number of reasons for this, from convenience to a desire to form that > special bond to necessity to even laziness. > There are those who say that there is nothing wrong with co-sleeping > and that it's an old practice. Co-sleeping, they say, has been > practiced by many mothers over the years with no ill effects, and, > therefore, there is not a problem with it. http://goo.gl/vndDT > Co-sleeping can be really really great for helping a tired mom get > some extra hours of sleep and for helping a young baby sleep longer > stretches as he feels his mother right there next to him. > ... > Yes, there are several rules you MUST follow to co-sleep safely (look > here for details) but if you follow them this can be the answer you > sound like you desperately need. > ... > Robin - we do co-sleep (following all the guidelines, etc, etc ... > ... > I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. > ... > I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. > ... > Co-sleeping didn't help, because she didn't sleep for more than an 45 > minutes to an hour no matter where we were. > ... > I was co-sleeping with my daughter (she was born in Jan) for about six > weeks and was totally exhausted. > ... > Everything woke him up, and (to my utter dismay) we couldn't co-sleep > because I woke up every time HE woke up ... > ... > I tried him in co-sleeper, bassinet, whatever, in our room and T would > have none of it. > ... > You sound too sensitive (I was) to co-sleep. Put him in his own room. http://goo.gl/tcEVg > (When your child can out-cry-you-out, and the co-sleeping is one long > dance of head-kicking, hair-yanking pain, what do you do? Seriously. > WHAT DO YOU DO?)/ > / http://goo.gl/meiYJ > The Consumer Product Safety Commission warned last week against > co-sleeping--infants sleeping next to parent. Its study found parents > can roll over and suffocate babies. Critics call the data misleading. > It's all part of the war over for what's best for Baby. > Sleep Easy: Co-sleeping means more rest, less crying for the baby (and > the parents). It also aids breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. > Baby on Board: The CPSC says Baby's safest on her back, in a crib, on > a hard mattress, with no blankets, pillows or stuffed toys > Different Strokes: Ethnic cultures where co-sleeping has always been > the norm resent CPSC's proclamation > Real Risks: Co-sleeping deaths do happen (especially when parents are > overweight or go to bed drunk). Is it better to be safe than cozy? > Mother, Nature: We're biologically wired to co-sleep. Baby cries when > alone because he's supposed to be with Mom. Wiki, UD, WordSpy and some parenting glossaries also have entries. But not mainline dictionaries (other than the OED). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 7 14:12:43 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 06:12:43 -0800 Subject: "Occupy" is American Dialect Society 2011 Word of the Year Message-ID: The vote is in! In its 22nd annual word-of-the-year vote last night in Portland, Ore., the American Dialect Society voted "occupy" as its 2011 Word of the Year. See the full tallies and nominations: http://amdlx.com/occupy Grant Barrett American Dialect Society Vice President of Communications and Technology http://www.americandialect.org grantbarrett at gmail.com 646 286 2260 mobile/cell ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 7 14:18:54 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:18:54 -0500 Subject: Intarnaional Journals of Research Message-ID: Judging at least by the signature line, one does not have great confidence in the success of this editorial enterprise: International Journals of Research in Linguistics & Lexicography, Education, Business, Economics, Commerce, Medicine, Surgery and Literature Dear Friend, International Journals of Research (INTJR) invite manuscripts in Linguistics, Lexicography, Education, Business, Economics, Commerce, Medicine, Surgery and Literature. INTJR is international, peer-reviewed, professional scientific journals published under the supervision of seasoned and expert researchers in the field. INTJR welcomes articles from different institutions and countries in the above mentioned and related fields. Send your manuscripts for publication: editor at intjr.com, editor.intjr at gmail.com Visit www.intjr.com for further information. For Detailed Call for Papers: http://www.intjr.com/call4papers.php Last Date for sending Manuscripts extended up to January 31, 2012. -- With Profound Regards Executive Editor, Intarnaional Journals of Research www.intjr.com Emails: editor at intjr.com, editor.intjr at gmail.com Cell 0092 345 744 54 54 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 14:16:29 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:16:29 -0500 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but >never the verb phone. But, like everything else >in the universe, it's on Google. >BB Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I see. (Very many, considering the false positives such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". Joel >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > Joel > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > >> > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > >> > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > >> > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > >> > >> ----- > >> It was the fact I was „sleep-texting‰ that freaked me out. > >> ----- > >> > >> Comment on that page: > >> > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > >> ----- > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > >> right now actually ­ i found it hilarious, she > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. > >> ----- > >> > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > >> > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > >> > >> ----- > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. > >> > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. > >> > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > >> > >> But doctors are also starting to see > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > >> > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > >> > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." > >> > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > >> ----- > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 7 15:04:31 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:04:31 -0600 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201071455.q076GGr9010568@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Isn't "butt-dial" more common that "butt-phone"? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:16 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but > >never the verb phone. But, like everything else > >in the universe, it's on Google. > >BB > > Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I > see. (Very many, considering the false positives > such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" > [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew > up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". > > Joel > > > >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > > >> > > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > > >> > > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > > >> > > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > > >> > > >> ----- > > >> It was the fact I was „sleep-texting‰ that freaked me out. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> Comment on that page: > > >> > > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > > >> ----- > > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > > >> right now actually ­ i found it hilarious, she > > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about > heh. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > > >> > > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > > >> > > >> ----- > > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her > sleep. > > >> > > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's > sleep. > > >> > > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > > >> > > >> But doctors are also starting to see > > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > > >> > > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > > >> > > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I > have." > > >> > > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> Benjamin Barrett > > >> Seattle, WA > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Jan 7 16:51:11 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:51:11 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <4F080C53.8000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: In olden times, before central heating, &c., sleeping with an infant was a common practice, and doubtless made sense. If the mother rolled over and suffocated the baby, the coroner's jury would bring the verdict of accidental death from being over-lain by the mother. overlie, verb, *Inflections:* Past tense *overlay*; past participle * overlain*. *2.* *trans.* Thesaurus » Categories » *a.* To lie over or on top of (a child, etc.) so as to cause suffocation; to smother by lying on. Cf. overlay v. 7a. Now *rare*. *a*1382 *Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) *(Bodl. 959) 3 Kings iii. 9 Þe sone of þis womman ys dead to nyȝt, for sleepynge sche ouerlay [*a*1425 *Corpus Oxf.* ouerlaye; *a*1425 *L.V.* oppresside; L. *oppressit*] hym. *c*1390 (1350) *Proprium Sanctorum* in *Archiv f. das Studium der Neueren Sprachen * (1888) *81* 301 Þis is aȝeyn þeos wymmen þat ouerliggen heor children. *c*1400 (1280) *Old Test. Hist.* in F. J. Furnivall *Adam Davy's 5 Dreams * (1878) 97 In hire slep þat o womman her owen childe ouerlay. *a*1450 (1425) J. Mirk *Instr. Parish Priests * (Claud.) (1974) 1657 Sende forth‥to þe byschop‥th.e modur þat þe chylde ouer-lyth. *a*1500 (1415) J. Mirk *Festial * (Gough) 150 Fendys‥make wymen to ouerlye hor children. 1530 J. Palsgrave *Lesclarcissement * 648/1, I overlye, as an oversene noryce dothe her chylde. 1803 R. Southey *Select. Lett. * (1856) I. 126 The mothers and the nurses who over-lie the children. 1856 E. B. Browning *Aurora Leigh * iv. 137 The old idiot wretch Screamed feebly, like a baby overlain. 1888 F. T. Elworthy *W. Somerset Word-bk. * 548 Th' old zow've a-bin and overlied one o' the little pigs. 1915 W. S. Maugham *Of Human Bondage * cxiii. 597 Accidents occurred often; mothers ‘overlay’ their babies, and perhaps errors of diet were not always the result of carelessness. I note the near 300 year gap (?) GAT On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Here's another word I've never heard--legal and helicopter-parenting > jargon, I suppose. > > http://goo.gl/y4XV6 > >> The Utah Court of Appeals has refused to dismiss charges in the >> controversial case of a South Jordan couple accused of killing their >> baby by sleeping with him -- their second child to die in their bed. >> The appeals judges sided with a lower court in a pair of opinions >> released Friday, saying that even though a state medical examiner >> listed the official cause of death as "undetermined," there was enough >> evidence that "co-sleeping" caused the baby to suffocate to put the >> parents on trial for child abuse homicide and reckless endangerment. >> ... >> At 3½ months, he was too young to roll over on his own, evidence that >> "supports a reasonable inference that Merrill actually caused the >> infant to stop breathing by co-sleeping," according to Friday’s opinion. >> The parents were said to be heavy sleepers, and a pediatrician warned >> them against co-sleeping a day before the child’s death. >> > > This is not without precedent. The OED has both co-sleeping n. and > co-sleep v. from 1966. > > Wordnik has several citations, including some with co-sleep and some > with co-sleeper. OED does not have co-sleeper either in the sense of a > special co-sleeping crib or in the sense of parent and child who are > co-sleeping. > > http://goo.gl/4UqvJ > Co-sleeping's deadly risk > >> Last year will be remembered for a number of things, but what should >> stick in people's minds is the number of deaths resulting from >> co-sleeping. The very mention of the word causes people to take sides >> and offer opinions. >> There are those who believe that co-sleeping is a wonderful experience >> between mother and child, allowing for bonding. By definition, >> co-sleeping involves the child sharing a sleep surface with the parent >> or parents, instead of being placed in his or her own bed. There are a >> number of reasons for this, from convenience to a desire to form that >> special bond to necessity to even laziness. >> There are those who say that there is nothing wrong with co-sleeping >> and that it's an old practice. Co-sleeping, they say, has been >> practiced by many mothers over the years with no ill effects, and, >> therefore, there is not a problem with it. >> > > http://goo.gl/vndDT > >> Co-sleeping can be really really great for helping a tired mom get >> some extra hours of sleep and for helping a young baby sleep longer >> stretches as he feels his mother right there next to him. >> ... >> Yes, there are several rules you MUST follow to co-sleep safely (look >> here for details) but if you follow them this can be the answer you >> sound like you desperately need. >> ... >> Robin - we do co-sleep (following all the guidelines, etc, etc ... >> ... >> I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. >> ... >> I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. >> ... >> Co-sleeping didn't help, because she didn't sleep for more than an 45 >> minutes to an hour no matter where we were. >> ... >> I was co-sleeping with my daughter (she was born in Jan) for about six >> weeks and was totally exhausted. >> ... >> Everything woke him up, and (to my utter dismay) we couldn't co-sleep >> because I woke up every time HE woke up ... >> ... >> I tried him in co-sleeper, bassinet, whatever, in our room and T would >> have none of it. >> ... >> You sound too sensitive (I was) to co-sleep. Put him in his own room. >> > > http://goo.gl/tcEVg > >> (When your child can out-cry-you-out, and the co-sleeping is one long >> dance of head-kicking, hair-yanking pain, what do you do? Seriously. >> WHAT DO YOU DO?)/ >> / >> > > http://goo.gl/meiYJ > >> The Consumer Product Safety Commission warned last week against >> co-sleeping--infants sleeping next to parent. Its study found parents >> can roll over and suffocate babies. Critics call the data misleading. >> It's all part of the war over for what's best for Baby. >> Sleep Easy: Co-sleeping means more rest, less crying for the baby (and >> the parents). It also aids breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. >> Baby on Board: The CPSC says Baby's safest on her back, in a crib, on >> a hard mattress, with no blankets, pillows or stuffed toys >> Different Strokes: Ethnic cultures where co-sleeping has always been >> the norm resent CPSC's proclamation >> Real Risks: Co-sleeping deaths do happen (especially when parents are >> overweight or go to bed drunk). Is it better to be safe than cozy? >> Mother, Nature: We're biologically wired to co-sleep. Baby cries when >> alone because he's supposed to be with Mom. >> > > Wiki, UD, WordSpy and some parenting glossaries also have entries. But > not mainline dictionaries (other than the OED). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 7 16:58:00 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 16:58:00 +0000 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 Message-ID: One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge defeat, to cry for mercy") is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attested joke would be antedated: .... Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sweat." R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 17:18:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:18:40 -0500 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E8AE908@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 1/7/2012 10:04 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >Isn't "butt-dial" more common that "butt-phone"? Definitely -- and more common than "butt-call". But I had previously only tried "butt-call..." (it's hard to search for the infinitive so I used -ed and -ing), since "dial" is an anachronistic misnomer. :-) Joel > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:16 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but > > >never the verb phone. But, like everything else > > >in the universe, it's on Google. > > >BB > > > > Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I > > see. (Very many, considering the false positives > > such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" > > [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew > > up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". > > > > Joel > > > > > > >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > > > >> > > > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > > > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > > > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > > > >> > > > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > > > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > > > >> > > > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > > > >> > > > >> ----- > > > >> It was the fact I was „sleep-texting‰ that freaked me out. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> Comment on that page: > > > >> > > > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > > > >> ----- > > > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > > > >> right now actually ­ i found it hilarious, she > > > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about > > heh. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > > > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > > > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > > > >> > > > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > > > >> > > > >> ----- > > > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her > > sleep. > > > >> > > > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > > > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > > > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > > > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > > > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > > > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's > > sleep. > > > >> > > > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > > > >> > > > >> But doctors are also starting to see > > > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > > > >> > > > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > > > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > > > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > > > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > > > >> > > > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > > > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I > > have." > > > >> > > > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > > > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> Benjamin Barrett > > > >> Seattle, WA > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 17:37:05 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:37:05 -0500 Subject: overlie [Was: co-sleeping] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/7/2012 11:51 AM, George Thompson wrote: >I note the near 300 year gap (?) [1530--1803] Perhaps because: "The Child is overlain, says one. The Nurse has overlain the Child. This is not good English : For Overlain belongs to the Verb Overlie, not to the Verb Overlay : And yet Overlay is the Verb used where Mention is made of a Nurse's pressing and smothering a Child. [Etc., etc.]" Robert Baker, Remarks on the English Language, 1770, p. 35. GBooks. :-) (Nevertheless, there are a few interdatings.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 18:35:21 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:35:21 -0500 Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" Message-ID: "_The U.S. government_ now expects to shutter at least 1,200 data centers…" Is "Feds" unconsciously being construed as singular because "The U.S. government" is singular? Or is this merely a typo? Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Sun Jan 8 01:25:34 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 20:25:34 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201070911.q076GGeV010568@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" and using that term for decades. Daniel Nussbaum II, MD, FAAP Retired Pediatrician ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Sun Jan 8 04:01:35 2012 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:01:35 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201080125.q0766V5Y020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Nussbaum > Subject: Re: co-sleeping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" a= > nd using that term for decades. I'm pretty sure Dr. Sears' baby book uses the phrase. It's the one we use(d) about the son we co-slept with as a baby (and somehow managed not to kill). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 8 07:44:10 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 02:44:10 -0500 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 In-Reply-To: <201201071658.q0761V6H004014@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/7/2012 11:58 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge de= > feat, to cry for mercy") > is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. > > If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attes= > ted joke would be antedated: > .... > Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sw= > eat." > R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... > > The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. -- Interesting. I see that this passage is in a student periodical, in a section devoted to little items of current news among dental students. R. E. Drake was one of these students. I don't know who/what the "little fellow" was: probably this is some kind of inside joke. I don't think one can know the referent from this short item. I don't find clear mention of a child or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Apparently he belonged to a fraternity and played brass instruments. I suppose he was Rollin Edwards Drake (b. 1868). The preceding item with Dr. Martin appears presumably unrelated. I suppose this is just for humor: some senior student said "flabby" instead of "clammy", I suppose, ha ha. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 07:52:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 02:52:34 -0500 Subject: name change Message-ID: It's only the first week in January and we already have the name of the year: http://goo.gl/z2Dkv > Beezow Doo-Doo Zopittybop-Bop-Bop, 30, was arrested Thursday afternoon > on charges of carrying a concealed weapon, possession of drug > paraphernalia, possession of marijuana and a violation of probation in > Madison, Wisc. > Zopittybop-Bop-Bop was born Jeffrey Drew Wilschke, according to court > records unearthed by the Capital Times. He legally changed his name to > Beezow Doo-Doo Zoopittybop-Bop-Bop in October. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 08:13:38 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 03:13:38 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201080401.q0766V7Q020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I am not disputing that the word has been in circulation--in fact, it seems to have been around for 50 years or so. But it is interesting that, aside from the OED, it's been ignored by the major dictionaries--interesting /precisely/ because it has been around for so long and has been a point of controversy for some time as well. VS-) On 1/7/2012 11:01 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" and using that term for decades. > I'm pretty sure Dr. Sears' baby book uses the phrase. It's the one we > use(d) about the son we co-slept with as a baby (and somehow managed > not to kill). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 8 15:38:43 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:38:43 +0000 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 Message-ID: Previously we have seen various similar-sounding Irish words and names suggested for the origin of malarkey (nonsense etc.). It appears in baseball (? *) reporting in 1924: 1924 Indiana (Pa.) Evening Gaz. 12 Mar. 13/1 The rest of the chatter is so much malarkey, according to a tip so straight that it can be passed thru a peashooter without touching the sides. Here's the 1904 opening text of a baseball report by (Irish-sounding?) O'Laughlin: Too much Malarkey. That about summarizes the reasons for Minneapolis' defeat at the hands of Columbus yesterday afternoon. Old "King Mull" fried and frapped the air with shoots, drops and flips until the millers began to break ground every time they approached the plate. The Minneapolis journal., May 19, 1904, Image 15, p. 14(?), cpl. 3 http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045366/1904-05-19/ed-1/seq-15/;words=Malarkey+much?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=advanced&proxdistance=5&date2=1922&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=+much+malarkey&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson * http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1004B&L=ADS-L&P=R7384&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 8 15:47:07 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:47:07 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E87439502873C5A@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Does the following antedated use suggest clues to the etymology of "slang"? {No attempt to mark the three different typefaces:] "I don't know (says a Printer's Devil mingled with the Croud) you may talk of your Curls, and I know not who; but for vamping, patching, puffing, parading and scurrility, and Slang (a cant word among those Gentry) I think there's none comes up to the Carman before us." ________________________________ From: Stephen Goranson Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 8 16:47:01 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:47:01 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E8743950287C00A@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen's find is very interesting, but perhaps he is not looking at Green's Dictionary of Slang in assessing this citation. GDoS has citations for _slang_ 'line of work, occupation' back to 1741, and for _slang_ 'nonsense, rubbish' back to 1747. The 1753 discovery may be in the sense 'nonsense, rubbish.' Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 10:47 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Does the following antedated use suggest clues to the etymology of "slang"? {No attempt to mark the three different typefaces:] "I don't know (says a Printer's Devil mingled with the Croud) you may talk of your Curls, and I know not who; but for vamping, patching, puffing, parading and scurrility, and Slang (a cant word among those Gentry) I think there's none comes up to the Carman before us." ________________________________ From: Stephen Goranson Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sun Jan 8 17:11:50 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:11:50 -0800 Subject: 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't Message-ID: http://channels.isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/biblequotes/biblequotes&floc=wn-nx 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't Scripture says, "God helps those who help themselves." Or does it? Search all you want in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. You won't find it anywhere. Call it phantom scripture. It sounds like it should be in the Bible--and maybe someone you respect told you it was, but it's not. "The Bible may be the most revered book in America, but it's also one of the most misquoted," reports CNN correspondent John Blake, who assembled the most oft-quoted phantom Bible passages and their real source. The top five phantom Bible passages: 1. "God helps those who help themselves." Origin: Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Almanac" 2. "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Origin: It's almost in the Bible. This is similar to, but not the same as, Proverbs 13:24: "The one who withholds [or spares] the rod is one who hates his son." 3. "God works in mysterious ways." Origin: A paraphrase of a 19th century hymn by the English poet William Cowper. "God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform." 4. "Cleanliness is next to godliness." Origin: Coined by John Wesley, the 18th century evangelist who founded Methodism. 5. "Pride goes before a fall." Origin: It's close to Proverbs 16:18: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Why do we think these phantom passages are in the Bible? One Bible professor says it's because people like the idea that biblical passages reinforce their own pre-existing beliefs. "Most people who profess a deep love of the Bible have never actually read the book," Rabbi Rami Shapiro told CNN. "They have memorized parts of texts that they can string together to prove the biblical basis for whatever it is they believe in, but they ignore the vast majority of the text." Ignorance isn't the only reason we think phantom biblical passages are real. We're also just plain confused since many of these phantom verses do reflect actual biblical concepts, good common sense or folk wisdom. --From the Editors at Netscape _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 18:00:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:00:11 -0500 Subject: Proverb: When the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box (version in 1781) Message-ID: Nigel Rees of the BBC Radio Program "QUOTE ... UNQUOTE" has posted the following query on his website: http://www1c.btwebworld.com/quote-unquote/p0000112.htm [Begin query] Q4298 'When the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box' - is usually described as an Italian proverb. Is it? [End query dated July 27, 2011] While searching for information about this saying I found that it was labeled a Persian proverb, a Chinese proverb, an Irish saying, and an Italian proverb. The query does not indicate what is currently known, and does not provide any benchmark for improvement. I was unable to find the saying in the Yale Book of Quotations or in Oxford Reference Online (but the search function for Oxford Reference Online is confusing and difficult for me to use effectively. So it might be in that database somewhere). Here is a 1781 citation that contains the core idea of the saying but is somewhat wordy. Cite: 1781, "Chinese Tales or The Wonderful Adventures of the Mandarin Fum-Hoam, Related By Himself, To Divert The Sultana, Upon the Celebration of Her Nuptials", Written in French by M. Gueulette, Translated by The Rev. Mr. Stackhouse, Volume The Second, Chapter: Evening XL, Page 96-97, Printed for Harrison and Co., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=PawCAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+box%22#v=snippet& [Begin compressed excerpt] ... the kings, the queens, the knights, the fools, and simple pawns ... when once the game is over, and the chessboard shut, they are all thrown promiscuously together into the same box, ... [End compressed excerpt] [Begin extended excerpt] The king, with whom I had this discourse, was satisfied with the truth of it. 'You are in the right,' said he to me; 'and it is with very great justice that one of our poets has elegantly compared all kind of men to the pieces wherewith we play at chess: some act the kings, the queens, the knights, the fools, and simple pawns. There is a vast difference between them, while they are in motion; but when once the game is over, and the chessboard shut, they are all thrown promiscuously together into the same box, without any sort of distinction. Death does the very same thing: kings, emperors, merchants, slaves, warriors, men of the robe, and of the revenue all then become equal; and there is nothing but our good works, and charity towards our neighbours, that will give us the superiority. Let us therefore, always be doing commendable actions; for they bring with them an inward satisfaction, which the wicked never enjoy. [End extended excerpt] Please check for typos before using this information. Thanks. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 18:16:55 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:16:55 -0500 Subject: 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't In-Reply-To: <201201081711.q08Ajwvt006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: They forgot--or ignored--one more basic reason. People prefer short, catchy slogans to full verses that may be too subtle. And when added to the predisposition toward the substance of the expression, the combination is lethal. VS-) On 1/8/2012 12:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ... > Why do we think these phantom passages are in the Bible? One Bible professor says it's because people like the idea that biblical passages reinforce their own pre-existing beliefs. "Most people who profess a deep love of the Bible have never actually read the book," Rabbi Rami Shapiro told CNN. "They have memorized parts of texts that they can string together to prove the biblical basis for whatever it is they believe in, but they ignore the vast majority of the text." > > Ignorance isn't the only reason we think phantom biblical passages are real. We're also just plain confused since many of these phantom verses do reflect actual biblical concepts, good common sense or folk wisdom. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:30:38 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:30:38 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak Message-ID: Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough cockneys," if that's any help.) Also heard: "He's _chinky_(?)" in context, equivalent to. "He's _lively_" et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 8 21:40:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:40:57 -0800 Subject: More on soft opening; soft/hard left/right Message-ID: On February 14, 2005, John Baker discusses the term "soft opening," used by retailers to refer to opening for business before making a formal grand opening announcement (http://ow.ly/8m6Bu). In the Seattle Times today, that meaning is extended to a park. "Sammamish resident's park gift comes with extra: more land later," Keith Ervin (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017186232_parkgift08m.html) ----- Not many residents have discovered the park since its unheralded "soft opening" in October. ----- This meaning is not in the OED. Also, it appears that "hard" and "soft" are not defined in reference to turning. At an intersection where there is more than one left or right possible, the "hard" left/right is the one at the most acute angle, and the "soft" left/right is the one at the most obtuse angle. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:40:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:40:26 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201081538.q0869PBF018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > "… the millers began to _break ground_ …" What does this mean, in this context? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:49:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:49:05 -0500 Subject: More on soft opening; soft/hard left/right In-Reply-To: <201201082141.q0869PQf018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the "soft" left/right is the one at the most obtuse angle. I've never come across this use of "soft," before. Interesting! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:55:00 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:55:00 -0500 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <201201081647.q08AjwvX006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Stephen's find is very interesting, but perhaps he is not looking at Green's Dictionary of Slang in _assessing_ this citation. Stephen's not "assessing." He's querying. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:04:50 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:04:50 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082141.q089pWW4013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would assume that The Millers was the nickname of the Columbus team. They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching. VS-) On 1/8/2012 4:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> "… the millers began to _break ground_ …" > What does this mean, in this context? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 8 22:18:23 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:18:23 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082205.q08Ajw4F006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Other way around. The Minneapolis team was traditionally known as the Millers right back to the old Western League (a forerunner of today's AL, by the way, although Minneapolis stayed in the minors until the Washington Senators moved there and became the Twins.) Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would assume that The Millers was the nickname of the Columbus team. > They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching. > > VS-) > > On 1/8/2012 4:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>> "… the millers began to _break ground_ …" >> What does this mean, in this context? >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 8 22:25:58 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:25:58 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082131.q089pWVo013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first two seem fine to me from my Edinburgh days; I don't know "chinky" in this context, though it could be regional and just not Scots or Northumbrian. London slang tends to spread, but there are plenty of other areas with slang of their own that stay put unless the media get hold of it (cf. the Beatles' "gear", which was Scouse, unlike "fab", which was general British, and "bird", which was originally West Midland [and medievally old] and had become general British already). Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, > > "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." > > Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, > > "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" > > Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) > > *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough > cockneys," if that's any help.) > > Also heard: > > "He's _chinky_(?)" > > in context, equivalent to. > > "He's _lively_" > > et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:31:02 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:31:02 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082218.q0869PSf018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then my reading of it doesn't work. VS-) On 1/8/2012 5:18 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > Other way around. The Minneapolis team was traditionally known as the Millers right back to the old Western League (a forerunner of today's AL, by the way, although Minneapolis stayed in the minors until the Washington Senators moved there and became the Twins.) > > Paul Johnston > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:31:16 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:31:16 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082131.q0869PQP018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe your "chinky" is in fact "cheeky". What happens at the fifth question, when all the limbs are gone? DanG On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, > > "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." > > Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, > > "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" > > Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) > > *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough > cockneys," if that's any help.) > > Also heard: > > "He's _chinky_(?)" > > in context, equivalent to. > > "He's _lively_" > > et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:34:34 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:34:34 -0500 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 In-Reply-To: <201201080744.q0869P4B018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dave Wilton has a web page on this topic at the Word Origins website here: http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/say_uncle/ Michael Quinion has a webpage on the topic at World Wide Words here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-say1.htm Both mention the parrot joke and provide a citation for the Iowa Citizen on October 9, 1891. Doug Wilson found it and placed it in the ADS archive in 2005. Here is a citation for the same tale a bit earlier in the LA Times which acknowledges a source called "Spare Moments". Cite: 1891 August 21, Los Angeles Times, A Bright Parrot, Page 8, Column 4, Los Angeles, California. (ProQuest) A gentleman was boasting that his parrot would repeat anything he told him. For example, he told him several times, before some friends, to say “Uncle,” but he would not repeat it. In anger he seized the bird and half twisting his neck said: “Say ‘uncle,’ you beggar!” and threw him into the fowl pen, in which he had ten prize fowls. Shortly afterward, thinking he had killed the parrot, he went to the pen. To his surprise he saw nine of the fowls dead on the floor, with their necks wrung, and the parrot standing on the tenth twisting his neck and screaming, “Say ‘uncle,’ you beggar! say 'uncle!" (Typos possible in the original text and mine.) Stephen Goranson posted a cite with this phrase: >> R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle." Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I don't find clear mention of a child or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Inherent in Doug's comment is one possible interpretation. Drake may have had a young nephew who had not yet said "uncle" to him. Garson On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:44 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 1/7/2012 11:58 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Stephen Goranson >> Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge de= >> feat, to cry for mercy") >> is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. >> >> If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attes= >> ted joke would be antedated: >> .... >> Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sw= >> eat." >> R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... >> >> The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. > -- > > Interesting. > > I see that this passage is in a student periodical, in a section devoted > to little items of current news among dental students. R. E. Drake was > one of these students. I don't know who/what the "little fellow" was: > probably this is some kind of inside joke. I don't think one can know > the referent from this short item. I don't find clear mention of a child > or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Apparently he belonged to a > fraternity and played brass instruments. I suppose he was Rollin Edwards > Drake (b. 1868). > > The preceding item with Dr. Martin appears presumably unrelated. I > suppose this is just for humor: some senior student said "flabby" > instead of "clammy", I suppose, ha ha. > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 8 22:34:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 14:34:57 -0800 Subject: Paris-Brest Message-ID: Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 23:07:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:07:59 -0500 Subject: Paris-Brest In-Reply-To: <201201082235.q0869PTt018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Choux pastry" would suggest that it is basically a doughnut-shaped cream puff with praline in the cream. Sounds very 1891. I suppose, if you give it a touch of chocolate icing, you can call it eclair doughnut. Either Balsan made a particularly exceptional eclair or GQ is full of hot air--and their people don't get out much. VS-) On 1/8/2012 5:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. > > According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). > > Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. > > http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. > > A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 23:14:50 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:14:50 -0500 Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" In-Reply-To: <201201071836.q0766V0U020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Was it copyedited? DanG On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "_The U.S. government_ now expects to shutter at least 1,200 data centers…" > > > Is "Feds" unconsciously being construed as singular because "The U.S. > government" is singular? Or is this merely a typo? > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 00:43:17 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 19:43:17 -0500 Subject: More for the "bro-" files: "brony" In-Reply-To: <201112200533.pBK5Pd1G019206@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > My son told me about "bronies", i.e. grown male fans of My Little Pony. More > information at: > http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/06/bronies-my-little-ponys/ > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bronies > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203707504577012141105109140.html > > I find the portmanteau "brony" interesting because in words like "bromance" > (and in most other portmanteau and compound nouns) the second element is the > head: A bromance is a kind of romance; a motel is a kind of hotel. In > contrast, a brony is not a kind of pony, but a kind of bro. There was some discussion of "brony" on Language Log, since it was a nominee in the WOTY voting (ultimately winning in the Most Unnecessary category). This comment is of interest, since it turns out a "brony" *is* a kind of "pony", in the relevant subculture: --- http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3685#comment-161432 [Greg D:] I'm pretty sure "pony" is the head of "brony". In the My Little Pony universe, the characters say things like "everypony" and "anypony" and "nopony" instead of the standard English equivalents, and bronies (such as myself) when speaking with each other about the show will often do the same thing. On various blogs and podcasts dedicated to the fandom, the audience will often be addressed something like "all the ponies out there reading/listening". "Brony" means "pony who is a bro"–and that, as well as I understand it, is actually what bronies mean to say when they use it. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 01:54:32 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 01:54:32 +0000 Subject: missing from woty In-Reply-To: <201201090053.q08Ajw8X006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Missing from any ADS word of the yearly lists are smartphone robo underwater Maybe next year. If not winners these should at least make the list of nominees to reflect the times like in previous years. After all tablet and subprime are there. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 02:09:26 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:09:26 -0800 Subject: Paris-Brest In-Reply-To: <201201082308.q0869PUh018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, I had a little bit of a problem with the description, but it definitely looks different from the typical cream puff. Maybe kind of like how every difference in style yield a different hat name: porkpie, homburg, Tyrolean.... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > "Choux pastry" would suggest that it is basically a doughnut-shaped > cream puff with praline in the cream. Sounds very 1891. > > I suppose, if you give it a touch of chocolate icing, you can call it > eclair doughnut. Either Balsan made a particularly exceptional eclair or > GQ is full of hot air--and their people don't get out much. > > VS-) > > On 1/8/2012 5:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. >> >> According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). >> >> Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. >> >> http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. >> >> A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:39:08 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:39:08 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082231.q089pWXe013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I believe your "chinky" is in fact "cheeky". I considered that possibility, but I decided that it didn't matter, this being only an anecdote. I heard "chinky," thought, "cheeky?", then thought, "WTH." IAC, the mother - or should that be, "the mom"? And I used to think that it was funny that _mama_ is the formal word for "mother" in Rumanian! - was saying that her tough-cockney child, though afflicted with progeria, was, nevertheless, nick. (Pswaydo-cockney rhyming slang: "lively and quick, must be Saint _Nick_." ) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:47:19 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:47:19 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082226.q089pWXK013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > _"bird"_ … _medievally old_ ... Well, that gives the lie to my claim, since ca. 1948, that it's a rip-off of "chick"! :-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:51:07 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:51:07 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082205.q0869PRh018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching Makes as much sense as "kicked ass," used similarly. In BE, at least. Thankx! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 9 05:13:44 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:13:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201090448.q0869Pjx018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It surprised me , too, to see "burd(e) (usual ME spelling, indicating that there was once a front rounded vowel in it, unlike regular "bird" < OE bridd) in medieval texts from Gloucestershire to Lancashire. The usual etymologies suggested are either from OE gebyrde "high-born", or what I personally suspect, a metathesized form of OE bryd "bride". I'm sure American "chick" may have reinforced it, though. Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 11:47 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: >> _"bird"_ … _medievally old_ ... > > Well, that gives the lie to my claim, since ca. 1948, that it's a > rip-off of "chick"! :-) > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 05:32:25 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:32:25 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201090513.q0869PqB018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Paul Johnston wrote: > what I personally suspect, a metathesized form of OE bryd "bride". I prefer that analysis, too. A variant retained and slangified! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 08:11:20 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:11:20 -0500 Subject: More for the "bro-" files: "brony" In-Reply-To: <201201090053.q089pWak013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > There was some discussion of "brony" on Language Log, since it was a > nominee in the WOTY voting (ultimately winning in the Most Unnecessary > category). This comment is of interest, since it turns out a "brony" > *is* a kind of "pony", in the relevant subculture: Correction: "brony" won for Least Likely to Succeed, not Most Unnecessary. > --- > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3685#comment-161432 > [Greg D:] I'm pretty sure "pony" is the head of "brony". In the My > Little Pony universe, the characters say things like "everypony" and > "anypony" and "nopony" instead of the standard English equivalents, > and bronies (such as myself) when speaking with each other about the > show will often do the same thing. On various blogs and podcasts > dedicated to the fandom, the audience will often be addressed > something like "all the ponies out there reading/listening". > "Brony" means "pony who is a bro"–and that, as well as I understand > it, is actually what bronies mean to say when they use it. > --- -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 08:13:31 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:13:31 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201070423.q06JwfLU009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > And the winner is... "occupy". > > http://www.americandialect.org/occupy-is-the-2011-word-of-the-year > > Full press release, with winners in the various categories, is here: > > http://www.americandialect.org/2011-Word-of-the-Year-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf Here's my wrap-up: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/3091/ with video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNTKesG4zCw And Geoff Pullum also had a WOTY write-up for the Chronicle of Higher Education's Lingua Franca blog: http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/01/08/the-year-of-occupy/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 10:01:58 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 02:01:58 -0800 Subject: Japchae Message-ID: The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. I didn't do an exhaustive search for all spellings, but the only hit I found on the ADS archives is "chapchae'" by Barry Popik in 2002 (http://ow.ly/8mwcm). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 15:24:24 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:24:24 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/9/2012 05:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of >those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While >that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it >increases the number of spellings of the dish. Does that actually help pronunciation? I've always said, or thought, "chae" as rhyming with "tie", whereas I would take "chay" to rhyme with "(blue)jay". Am I wrong? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 15:56:10 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:56:10 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus Message-ID: Delonte West has been banned from going to the White House for a meeting of the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks with President Obama. He failed a "routine background check" by the President's security team. The linguistic item that interested me in the story (on "Ball Don't Lie", by Kelly Dwyer)** is: West is quoted as saying "It's going to be ashamed the President isn't going to get a chance to meet me. I'm the president of my house.'' Is this the irresponsible passive (it ... ashamed), because West didn't dare criticize the (other) president directly; or spoken ungrammaticity; or someone's typo? (I will skip over the hubris of the metaphor of a meeting of equals, both heads of state.) * The writer used "left off". ** No I don't read sports blogs -- this is Yahoo's lead news story this morning. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 16:04:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:04:06 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus In-Reply-To: <201201091556.q09FuB1P027377@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A perhaps-important correction -- not the lead story any more, as Yahoo rotates them. But presumably still accessible somewhere in the cloud ... at http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/mavericks-delonte-west-m-banned-going-white-house-022258022.html JSB At 1/9/2012 10:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Delonte West has been banned from going to the White House for a >meeting of the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks with President >Obama. He failed a "routine background check" by the President's >security team. The linguistic item that interested me in the story >(on "Ball Don't Lie", by Kelly Dwyer)** is: > >West is quoted as saying "It's going to be ashamed the President >isn't going to get a chance to meet me. I'm the president of my >house.'' Is this the irresponsible passive (it ... ashamed), >because West didn't dare criticize the (other) president directly; or >spoken ungrammaticity; or someone's typo? (I will skip over the >hubris of the metaphor of a meeting of equals, both heads of state.) > >* The writer used "left off". >** No I don't read sports blogs -- this is Yahoo's lead news story >this morning. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 18:35:59 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:35:59 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091524.q0969lrq000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 7:24 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/9/2012 05:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of >> those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While >> that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it >> increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Does that actually help pronunciation? I've always said, or thought, > "chae" as rhyming with "tie", whereas I would take "chay" to rhyme > with "(blue)jay". Am I wrong? > > Joel > Wikipedia has 잡채, so the vowel is like an Italian "e." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language#Sounds specifically says /ɛ/ for ㅐ. So the "y" ending definitely helps :) BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 9 18:43:33 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:43:33 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091002.q0969lC2000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. -- I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may be about right for many US English-speakers. As for pronunciation .... To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... some may hear /dZap tSE/. First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should be [just as] OK in the current word too. Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English (at 0:08 etc.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully (at 1:16): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 18:54:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:54:20 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091844.q09G0blm000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >> >> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. > -- > > I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may > be about right for many US English-speakers. > > As for pronunciation .... > > To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar > with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... > some may hear /dZap tSE/. > > First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear > "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most > Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as > rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should > be [just as] OK in the current word too. > > Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of > Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with > imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and > waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. > > It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a > Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would > furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. > > Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI > > Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English > (at 0:08 etc.): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is > > Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully > (at 1:16): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 19:26:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:26:06 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <4F0B3555.6060104@nb.net> Message-ID: At 1/9/2012 01:43 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >"jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). Well, I guess that's somewhere between "tie" (my take) and "way" (Benjamin's, perhaps). No wonder the Romanization is a problem! >I guess most >Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >rhyming with "Sunday", What do I know? What have I heard? I pronounce it rhyming with "to die" (a car to die for? to die in?). >so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >be [just as] OK in the current word too. > >Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. A good point, even if I could remember the last time I heard "jap chai" pronounced by waiters -- normally only I have to say it, and they are polite enough not to correct me. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 20:44:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:44:48 -0500 Subject: escalator Message-ID: Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED has. http://goo.gl/IP1Up > Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff > victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's > plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be more. The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the "attrib." part: > 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the > like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, > wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 20:48:53 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:48:53 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <4F0B51C0.9070505@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): http://goo.gl/HPpQd > The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= > blown. Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. VS-) On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED > has. > > http://goo.gl/IP1Up >> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. > > This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be > more. > > The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the > "attrib." part: > >> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. > > This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 21:00:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:00:20 -0800 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092048.q09HnKff028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: ----- Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): > > http://goo.gl/HPpQd >> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >> blown. > > Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco > (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. > > VS-) > > On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >> has. >> >> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >> >> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >> more. >> >> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >> "attrib." part: >> >>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >> >> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >> >> VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 21:00:40 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:00:40 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus In-Reply-To: <201201091556.q0969l5W011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "It's going to be _ashamed the_ President ,,," I haven't heard West speak, but, unless West is *the* exemplar of clarity in "standard" American-English enunciation, which he couples with an astonishing lack of control of the syntax of that language, there's no way that he pronounced [d] immediately followed by [D]. My interpretation, based only upon my own _Sprachgefuehl_, is that West said, "It's going to be a shame _that_ the President …" and whatever totally-unfamiliar-with-the-sound-pattern-of-the-English-of-the-colored-polloi reporter was listening simply pulled that bullshit "quote" essentially out of his ass. But, of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 21:06:53 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:06:53 -0800 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092100.q09KI0c6011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, I think that's a false hit. "Take back" probably means "pick up." BB On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. > > I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: > > ----- > Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> >> Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): >> >> http://goo.gl/HPpQd >>> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >>> blown. >> >> Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco >> (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >>> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >>> has. >>> >>> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >>> >>> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >>> more. >>> >>> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >>> "attrib." part: >>> >>>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >>> >>> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >>> >>> VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 21:09:52 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:09:52 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <4F0B51C0.9070505@gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I found one more example of naked escalator 2. http://goo.gl/XvOUs > Maybe the SEC has an escalator in their contract that increases the > total value of the TV contract, but I’m guessing that it still will > result in a reduction in the dollars paid to each school when compared > to the amount paid had an additional school not joined the conference. Burka did not make it clear, but these really are "Mark Cuban's words"--because they are taken off his own blog. http://goo.gl/Tk0Hg Quoting the above passage, another blogger adds, http://goo.gl/B5eqU > Either the SEC has an escalator or they believe that the temporary > losses outweigh what they will get when it comes time for renegotiation. Another contract: http://goo.gl/1s5Af > The Daily News first reported that the Jets signed the fifth-round > pick to a four-year, $1.99 million deal that included a $199,000 > signing bonus Friday. Escalators in the final year could make the deal > worth as much as $2.73 million. http://goo.gl/iG5M9 > The contract has an escalator in the fourth year that could make the > value of the deal worth $2.73 million. And a few more: http://goo.gl/N25Ey > Qatar’s contract for LNG with India has an escalator that will raise > it to $7.50 per million BTU at JCC of $60, and India is buying 44 spot > LNG cargoes during 2007 at average of $9 per million BTU. http://goo.gl/8BRmH > I don't remember the exact language but I know Miles' contract has an > escalator that boosts his contract to $1 more than the highest paid > coach in the SEC. http://goo.gl/eFgOc > Chicago Bears PK Robbie Gould likely will be helped by the new kickoff > rules because he has an escalator in his contract that kicks in if he > records a certain amount of touchbacks. http://goo.gl/co7zs > This means that if your contract has an escalator it won't count > towards that escalator. I also found another instance of 1.a. "cart escalator" for a /different/ Target: http://goo.gl/z5FpU > Everyone is amazed by the escalator because it takes the carts up and > down. In fact, all the comments that I found that mention cart escalators refer to one of several Target stores that have them. The ones at IKEA are different because the carts ride separately from the customers. VS-) On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED > has. > > http://goo.gl/IP1Up >> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. > > This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be > more. > > The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the > "attrib." part: > >> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. > > This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 22:06:52 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:06:52 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092106.q09HnKi1028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a citation for an "escalator for shopping carts" in 1970. Cite: 1970 May 13, Beaver County Times, An American Housewife In Israel By Judith Kraiem, Advertising section, Page 10, [GNA Page 52], Beaver County, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) Most of my shopping is done in the large modern supermarket not far from my apartment. This supermarket features double floors and an escalator for shopping carts, something not to be found as yet in New York. On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: escalator > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry, I think that's a false hit. "Take back" probably means "pick up." BB > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. >> >> I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: >> >> ----- >> Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> >>> Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): >>> >>> http://goo.gl/HPpQd >>>> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >>>> blown. >>> >>> Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco >>> (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. >>> >>> VS-) >>> >>> On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >>>> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >>>> has. >>>> >>>> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>>>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>>>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>>>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >>>> >>>> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >>>> more. >>>> >>>> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >>>> "attrib." part: >>>> >>>>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>>>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>>>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >>>> >>>> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >>>> >>>> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 22:23:30 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:23:30 -0500 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" Message-ID: On MSNBC, Megan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) An emoticon is a small squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 23:02:35 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:02:35 -0500 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" In-Reply-To: <201201092233.q09HnKql028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Ben. This story is rippling across the memesphere. Huffington Post has a story; and so do New York Mag, Breitbart.tv, BuzzFeed, Daily Caller, and other organizations. The quick acting Daily Caller has actually created an "emoticon" for the occasion. I cannot post it here because attachments are not allowed on this mailing list. If you wish to see the graphic the link to the page with the story and image is below. [Begin excerpt] Whether she meant to or not, McCain inspired us at The Daily Caller to envision what an “emoticon of privacy” would look like: [End excerpt] Short link: http://goo.gl/ECXWq Long link: http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/09/meghan-mccain-obama-deserves-a-small-emoticon-of-privacy/ On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On MSNBC, Megan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": > > http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html > > A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it > twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) An emoticon is a small > squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Tue Jan 10 00:44:20 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:44:20 +0700 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <75.47.03291.DB25B0F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Sent from my iPad On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:48, Victor Steinbok wrote: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: escalator > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): > > http://goo.gl/HPpQd >> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >> blown. > > Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco > (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. Been around for years in Europe. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 04:50:55 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:50:55 -0500 Subject: American-made Message-ID: Toyota commercials are pushing the Tundra ( http://goo.gl/RMFVv ) as "more American-made than" US-branded models (there are versions with Ford and Chevrolet as targets). It's also worth noting that this has set car bloggers and discussion fora on fire--there is a bunch of recent posts trying to analyze the spot. http://goo.gl/hDGSk > Tundra more American Made than Ford or Chevy > Discuss http://goo.gl/aNbBK > I personally know many construction workers that will never be > convinced a Tundra is more American than a Dodge made in Mexico, which > is partially owned by Fiat. And Toyota is not the only one that gets this treatment. http://goo.gl/1kmyb > I have heard it said that Victory is more American made than Harley > these days. I don't know how true that is, but can anyone verify that, > and what source they use for their information? What percentage of a > Victory motorcycle is American made? Thanks. I'm somewhat irritated on the whole comparative on "American-made". But I understand the reason for this--there are official measures and indices that show just how "American-made" different cars are. And when the first such measure was developed and mandated, the top car that qualified on the "domestic content" index was the Honda Accord. But I still find "X-made" to be all-or-nothing, not a comparative. YMMV VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 05:03:50 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:03:50 -0800 Subject: Fisher revival Message-ID: About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: http://ow.ly/8nN07 http://ow.ly/8nN0L Benjamin Barrett Seattle, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 06:19:22 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:19:22 -0500 Subject: Quote: growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional (1987 June 17) Message-ID: The "QUOTE ... UNQUOTE" website for the BBC Radio program has posted the following query (dated July 2011): Q4293 'Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional' was something written in a 1994 book by Elaine R. Davis. Any earlier offers? Here is a cite a few years earlier. The attribution is vague and may be rhetorical. Cite: 1987 June 17, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, From The Gulf To Dormont by Tom Hritz, Page 4-W, Column 1, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VOlRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ym4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6187,5362642& [Begin excerpt] My pal Harvey is forever reminding me that while growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. [End excerpt] I first found this cite several months ago, and now the obvious queries do not match the text in the Google News Archive. Several of the major full-text databases are remarkably flaky. I recommend taking screen shots and saving links when gathering data. The link above does lead to the correct newspaper page as of January 10, 2012. (The above citation and other cites relevant to "Quote … Unquote" queries are also being sent directly to Nigel Rees.) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 14:32:15 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:32:15 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201100542.q0A5LqHk032186@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On the Bruce Peninsula, between Georgian Bay and Lake Huron, I've heard "fisher" used only in reference to the largest member of the weasel family, a beautiful and fierce predator that is fairly common there. In the local papers, "fisherman" seems to be used, especially in articles on fishing competitions, in a gender neutral way. Fishers are sometimes confused with martens, but they're bigger. Tip to tail they may reach four feet. Folk etymology claims that they eat fish, but they very rarely do so. Their habitat tends to be arborial, and they're much more likely to eat pets than fish. The OED assumes "fish+er" as the etymology, but the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_%28animal%29 suggests a Dutch origin: "The name implies a diet of fish yet it seldom dines on aquatic organisms. Early Dutch settlers noted its similarity to the European polecat (Mustela putorius). Fitchet is a name derived from the Dutch word visse, meaning 'nasty'. In the French language, the pelt of a polecat is called fiche or fichet.[3]" Herb On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Jan 10 15:26:06 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:26:06 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 10 15:37:31 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:37:31 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Trade Union" Message-ID: trade union (OED 1831) 1828 _The Co-Operator_ 1 July 1 (Making of the Modern World) A Trade Union is a society of workmen uniting for the purpose of mutual self-protection on the subject of wages. 1829 _Quarterly Review_ Nov. 373 (British Periodicals) At present, the working classes are in a state of perpetual hostility with their masters, and may be said in the _trade union clubs_ to keep a standing treasury for carrying on the war. 1830 _Liverpool Mercury_ 8 Jan. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) _Bolton._ -- _Trades' Union._ 1830 _Manchester Guardian_ 27 Mar. 4 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Prisoner ... belonged to the trades' union. They had instructed him to stand up for wages. 1830 _Herald to the Trades' Advocate_ 4 Dec. 173 (JSTOR) These papers ... will never be constituted, unless a Trades' Union throughout Scotland be instituted. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Tue Jan 10 16:36:47 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:36:47 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Take a look at this!! Message-ID:

ive learned that things dont aways work out as planned this makes it impossible for me to fall behind I had nowhere to turn
http://krtko.borec.cz/profile/80WayneRoberts/ miracles really do exist
this is the real deal

see you later.

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Tue Jan 10 17:10:54 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:10:54 -0600 Subject: teen slang phone app (UK) Message-ID: http://www.saga.co.uk/lifestyle/people/news/woteva-app-160.aspx OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It’s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you’ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ‘Woteva’ (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ‘submit an entry’ function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we’re just showing off). It’s FREE too so you don’t need to part with any moolah (OK, we’ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. “That track is meaty, dude.” Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty – teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever – a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It’s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you’ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ‘Woteva’ (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ‘submit an entry’ function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we’re just showing off). It’s FREE too so you don’t need to part with any moolah (OK, we’ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. “That track is meaty, dude.” Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty – teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever – a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It’s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you’ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ‘Woteva’ (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ‘submit an entry’ function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we’re just showing off). It’s FREE too so you don’t need to part with any moolah (OK, we’ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. “That track is meaty, dude.” Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty – teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever – a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 19:36:55 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:36:55 -0500 Subject: Mock Definition: Secrecy: The art of telling a thing to only one person at a time Message-ID: This is another post inspired by a "QUOTE…UNQUOTE" query. The query appears on the website and was discussed in the October 2011 and the January 2012 issues of a "QUOTE…UNQUOTE" Newsletter. [Begin query] Q4302 'A secret is something you only tell one person at a time' - known by the 1950s, is this a quotation or just a saying? [End query] Here is a relevant citation for an article that appeared in multiple newspapers in 1905. The word "secrecy" was used instead of "secret'. The title of the article was "Definitions" and it consisted of a series of short mock definitions. The acknowledgement given at the end of the story indicates that the text was reprinted from the "New Orleans Times Democrat" newspaper. Cite: 1905 July 09, Lexington Herald, Definitions [Acknowledgment: New Orleans Times Democrat], Page 8, Column 4, Lexington, Kentucky.(GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] Patriotism: A momentary excitement due to the explosion of powder. ... Secrecy: The art of telling a thing to only one person at a time. Error: The mistaken act of another. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 21:39:44 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:39:44 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! Message-ID: Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:10:02 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:10:02 -0800 Subject: Gay old time Message-ID: The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ‘carefree’ or ‘bright and showy’ cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. Googling yields many hits. Here are three: 1. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/05/grand-theft-auto-gay-tony/ "We’ll Have a Gay Old Time With Next Grand Theft Auto," Chris Kohler, May 26, 2009 ----- Grand Theft Auto: The Ballad of Gay Tony will cast you not as the title character, a “legendary nightclub impresario.” Instead, you’ll play Luis Lopez, his assistant slash hired goon. To be fair, Rockstar’s announcement on Tuesday stopped short of explicitly specifying whether Tony got his nickname because he is gay as in “jovial,” or gay as in “his name is written in a variety of sparkly rainbow colors.” ----- 2. http://worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7282 "A Gay, Old Time?" Jerry Newcombe, June 21, 2011 Not any good quote, but the anti-gay nature of the article makes this use interesting. ----- When The Flintstones theme first crowed, "we'll have a gay, old time," it would have been difficult to imagine how the meaning of that phrase has changed to a cultural phenomenon sweeping the nation. ----- 3. http://totalsteelers.com/2011/11/14/week-10-recap-steelers-have-a-gay-old-time/ "Week 10 Recap: Steelers Have A Gay Old Time," Chris, November 14, 2011 Given the deeply closeted nature of American football, it is particularly interesting that this phrase was used to titillate or provoke football fans into reading the article. The expression is not used in the article; "Gay" refers to player Will.i.am Gay. It will be only a few decades before this title becomes a head-scratcher. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:28:11 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:28:11 -0500 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader Message-ID: ... on "Illin"--here http://goo.gl/ehFJV VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:35:01 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:35:01 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102139.q0AKVald010717@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is coffee served or featured in any other way. VS-) On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. > > Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. > > The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. > > The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) > > I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:37:43 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:37:43 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <4F0CBD15.4060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry--"coffee shop" is the formal designation for Dutch suppliers, but "coffee house" is heard occasionally from the customers (or potential customers). "Coffee-shop" as listed under "coffee" in OED also lacks this definition. VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of > "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal > cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). > There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an > organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured > (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is > coffee served or featured in any other way. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" >> (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) >> while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries >> variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. >> >> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as >> alternatives to "coffeehouse" >> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open >> form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" >> (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). >> My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >> >> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia >> article that is also closed. >> >> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. >> (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >> >> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to >> coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:40:25 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:40:25 -0800 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader In-Reply-To: <201201102228.q0AHLVik026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This also has a nice use of "head" meaning aficionado: "hip-hop head." I think that use of "head" has been discussed on this list before. When I recently asked a friend who is visiting his parents in Alaska whether he was having fun on a snow machine, he responded: "Ripping up the hills on skis is more like it, my parents are very anti-motorhead." BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > ... on "Illin"--here http://goo.gl/ehFJV > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:43:41 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:43:41 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102237.q0AIrFUQ011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on "coffee shop" amsterdam shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Sorry--"coffee shop" is the formal designation for Dutch suppliers, but > "coffee house" is heard occasionally from the customers (or potential > customers). "Coffee-shop" as listed under "coffee" in OED also lacks > this definition. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 5:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of >> "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal >> cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). >> There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an >> organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured >> (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is >> coffee served or featured in any other way. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" >>> (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) >>> while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries >>> variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. >>> >>> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as >>> alternatives to "coffeehouse" >>> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open >>> form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" >>> (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). >>> My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >>> >>> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia >>> article that is also closed. >>> >>> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. >>> (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >>> >>> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to >>> coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:43:29 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:43:29 -0500 Subject: Gay old time In-Reply-To: <201201102210.q0AIrFRg011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ‘carefree’ or ‘bright and showy’ cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". > > The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. "High old time" is another. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:49:24 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:49:24 -0800 Subject: Gay old time In-Reply-To: <201201102244.q0AHLVjY026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ‘carefree’ or ‘bright and showy’ cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". >> >> The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. > > "High old time" is another. I did not know that. One hit: http://addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-old-time-in-rhode-island.html "A High Old Time in Rhode Island: Feds release annual drug numbers." BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 23:28:24 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:28:24 -0500 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader In-Reply-To: <201201102240.q0AIrFUi011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What does that do to "pothead", "dope-head", "coke-head", "shit-head"? VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > This also has a nice use of "head" meaning aficionado: "hip-hop head." I think that use of "head" has been discussed on this list before. > > When I recently asked a friend who is visiting his parents in Alaska whether he was having fun on a snow machine, he responded: "Ripping up the hills on skis is more like it, my parents are very anti-motorhead." > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 23:30:06 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:30:06 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102243.q0AHLVjU026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Googling on > > "coffee shop" amsterdam > > shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 00:12:56 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:12:56 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102330.q0AMj9Yq011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm referring to your statement that in the Netherlands, "coffee shop" is "the formal designation for Dutch suppliers." Looking over the e-mails, I'm now confused. What does "supplier" mean? BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to > go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Googling on >> >> "coffee shop" amsterdam >> >> shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. >> >> BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 00:24:00 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:24:00 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110013.q0AMj9e2011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: purveyors... legal purveyors of psychoactive substances that are illegal elsewhere. I've even seen "coffee shops" and "cafes" right next to each other and only one served coffee. VS-) On 1/10/2012 7:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I'm referring to your statement that in the Netherlands, "coffee shop" is "the formal designation for Dutch suppliers." > > Looking over the e-mails, I'm now confused. What does "supplier" mean? > > BB > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to >> go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Googling on >>> >>> "coffee shop" amsterdam >>> >>> shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. >>> >>> BB > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 02:14:33 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:14:33 +0000 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091002.q0969lC2000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Japchae is discussed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is It's pronounced ~taapcchae (in truespel) ~t the ~t sound does have some extra hissing throughout it, like ~ch ~aa as in "Saab" ~cch is ~ch with the extra c indicating that the second syllable is stressed ~ae is long a as in "sundae" Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 02:01:58 -0800 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Japchae > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. > > I didn't do an exhaustive search for all spellings, but the only hit I found on the ADS archives is "chapchae'" by Barry Popik in 2002 (http://ow.ly/8mwcm). > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 03:15:42 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:15:42 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091854.q0969lOI011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Sitting in my mailbox for nearly 36 hours] JapChe Guevara? Chapchae seems to be predominant retail and menu spelling here. And by "here" I mean Boston, NYC and DC. I've seen a few initial j's, however, but not a lot of vowel alterations. There may be external reasons for this, however, as a number of Boston Korean restaurants had been started by "graduates" of two restaurants in Cambridge--I've talked to several who had been waiters, kitchen staff or even cleaning staff there. But this is changing, as the number of Korean restaurant in the area expands (my "survey" was done between 1999 and 2005 and there have been several new ones opened more recently). VS-) On 1/9/2012 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Japchae >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >>> >>> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. >> -- >> >> I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may >> be about right for many US English-speakers. >> >> As for pronunciation .... >> >> To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar >> with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... >> some may hear /dZap tSE/. >> >> First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >> "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most >> Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >> rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >> be [just as] OK in the current word too. >> >> Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >> Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >> imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >> waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. >> >> It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a >> Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would >> furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. >> >> Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI >> >> Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English >> (at 0:08 etc.): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is >> >> Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully >> (at 1:16): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE > In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society -http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 03:40:44 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:40:44 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: coffee-house, v. To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) LH On Jan 10, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. > > Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. > > The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. > > The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) > > I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 03:53:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:53:30 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110341.q0B2h700020590@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) VS-) On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = > used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = > typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = > hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = > is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: > > coffee-house, v. > > To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = > covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) > > LH > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" = > (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) = > while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously = > hyphenate, open or close this compound. >> =20 >> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as = > alternatives to "coffeehouse" = > (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open = > form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" = > (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=3Dcoffeehouse&submit.x=3D0&sub= > mit.y=3D0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >> =20 >> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia = > article that is also closed. >> =20 >> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. = > (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >> =20 >> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to = > coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >> =20 >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 03:56:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:56:48 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110353.q0B2h7PW018607@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge > than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious > game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national > teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = >> used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = >> typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = >> hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = >> is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: >> >> coffee-house, v. >> >> To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = >> covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) >> >> LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 04:09:55 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:09:55 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. LH > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge >> than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious >> game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national >> teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = >>> used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = >>> typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = >>> hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = >>> is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: >>> >>> coffee-house, v. >>> >>> To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = >>> covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) >>> >>> LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 04:39:56 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:39:56 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110410.q0B2h7Ju000492@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You are right, of course, except that the groups I played with always expanded on the original definition, but probably because both kinds of talk came as a package (we often played with five players, rotating someone in--particularly when teaching a novice). Of course, the other default was "table-talk", although that was usually a "conversation" between partners--not with opponents. I'm sure there were other Yiddishism flying across the table, but I don't recall them. VS-) On 1/10/2012 11:09 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. > Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 06:12:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:12:13 -0500 Subject: Google changes Message-ID: http://goo.gl/9Etvi > In a change that's been called the "most radical transformation eve > r" > to Google's search engine, the Mountain View, California, company on > Tuesday announced an update called "Search, plus Your World," which > causes Google's robots to incorporate data from its social network as > well as the public Internet when delivering search results to people. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 06:27:06 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:27:06 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110315.q0B2h7Mw018607@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is a fascinating theory! I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. In any case, this points to a point of origin for a spelling diffusion, which is surely a linguistic gem. It may cause an effect of pronunciation differentiation if Anglophones in the Beltway adopt a "ch" sound while those in other areas adopt a "j" sound. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > JapChe Guevara? > > Chapchae seems to be predominant retail and menu spelling here. And by > "here" I mean Boston, NYC and DC. I've seen a few initial j's, however, > but not a lot of vowel alterations. There may be external reasons for > this, however, as a number of Boston Korean restaurants had been started > by "graduates" of two restaurants in Cambridge--I've talked to several > who had been waiters, kitchen staff or even cleaning staff there. But > this is changing, as the number of Korean restaurant in the area expands > (my "survey" was done between 1999 and 2005 and there have been several > new ones opened more recently). > > VS-) > > On 1/9/2012 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: Japchae >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>>> Subject: Japchae >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >>>> >>>> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. >>> -- >>> >>> I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may >>> be about right for many US English-speakers. >>> >>> As for pronunciation .... >>> >>> To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar >>> with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... >>> some may hear /dZap tSE/. >>> >>> First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >>> "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most >>> Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >>> rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >>> be [just as] OK in the current word too. >>> >>> Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >>> Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >>> imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >>> waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. >>> >>> It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a >>> Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would >>> furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. >>> >>> Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI >>> >>> Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English >>> (at 0:08 etc.): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is >>> >>> Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully >>> (at 1:16): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE >> In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 11 07:27:29 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:27:29 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110627.q0B62UOn031822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/2012 1:27 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a fascinating theory! > > I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. > > In any case, this points to a point of origin for a spelling diffusion, which is surely a linguistic gem. It may cause an effect of pronunciation differentiation if Anglophones in the Beltway adopt a "ch" sound while those in other areas adopt a "j" sound. .... -- I think the new Romanization may very well change the prevalence of [spelling] pronunciations in the US. [I've noticed the analogous trend in Chinese (hardly anyone was named "Zhang" /ZaN/ back in the day, right?), although I guess Gen. Tso seems immune so far.] I'm not sure I've ever myself seen a spelling with "j" on a menu, or heard a pronunciation with an obviously voiced initial consonant, but I might not have noticed. I think the most frequent spelling in my limited experience is "chapchae", which would be a simplified McCune-Reischauer spelling I guess. Note however that my experience with chapchae is heavily weighted toward the Midwest (esp. Chicago area), 1971-1989. Now that I've thought of it, it's high time to go out for some Pittsburgh japchae/chapch'ae/whatever; I'll see what the menu says. Any analogous tendency for "kimchi"/"kimchee" to acquire a voiced initial ("gimchi") so far? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Wed Jan 11 11:03:14 2012 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:03:14 +0000 Subject: Fisher revival Message-ID: In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to use the word legitimately. Lots of examples can be found by Googling the term on the University of Aberdeen site specifically (if you Google without the site restriction, the top results are all clearly folkloric or to do with a band of that name, and don't seem to be modern usages of the term to describe people's present-day lives). I came to the U. Aberdeen site because I knew that Robert McColl Millar there had led a project on lexical attrition in fishing communities, and I thought it actually had the word _fisherfolk_ in the title, but the word isn't actually mentioned in Dr McColl Millar's website, though the project is. Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 11 13:26:59 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:26:59 +0000 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201101526.q0A66N9R021222@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I like the notion that the KJV is in the vanguard of gender-neutral terminology! ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Ronald Butters [ronbutters at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:26 AM Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 13:56:01 2012 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:56:01 +0800 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) Message-ID: This snowclone seems to be gaining a lot of popularity, having apparently starting with some viral videos "Shit girls say..." on YouTube. Over 400 million raw ghits. The closest hit currently on COCA is "things men say to women". -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 11 14:20:21 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:20:21 -0800 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201111103.q0B61FFY025748@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2012, at 3:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to use the word legitimately. > > Lots of examples can be found by Googling the term on the University of Aberdeen site specifically... you can also google on {"Nancy Dorian" fisherfolk} to find examples of the word's use in her work on the East Sunderland community. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 11 14:41:47 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:41:47 -0800 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" In-Reply-To: <201201092233.q09KI0im011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On MSNBC, Meghan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": > > http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html > > A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it > twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) it could be just a slip of the tongue, specifically an inadvertent word retrieval error (of the Fay/Cutler variety). the fact is that these errors (both of the F/C phonological type and of the semantics-based type) sometimes persist: once you've said "spread like wildflower" (instead of "wildfire") you are moderately likely to say it again not long after (and similarly for "teaching assistant" instead of "research assistant") [real-life examples]. once you've pulled up the wrong word, it's in your memory for a while, and you have a fair chance of using it again. > An emoticon is a small > squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. if you're lucky, you can ask speakers if they said what they intended to, but in this case the publicity that has attended the error has surely clouded McCain's ability to reflect on her intentions. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 15:39:21 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:39:21 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't it originally sponsored by the "Shit My Father Says" blog (and later TV sitcom spinoff)? LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > This snowclone seems to be gaining a lot of popularity, having apparently > starting with some viral videos "Shit girls say..." on YouTube. Over 400 > million raw ghits. The closest hit currently on COCA is "things men say to > women". > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 11 15:51:52 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:51:52 -0600 Subject: Fisher revival (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201111327.q0B62XFT014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word > "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in > the English-speaking world. > As opposed to "humen" . . . Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 11 16:47:37 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:47:37 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <42054E10C02CD44D81EF510077A30A076FA03054A8@MAPI.ad.kent.ac .uk> Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 06:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be >used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do >with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group >connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved >with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to >use the word legitimately. My feeling (I'm in the Boston area) is that I've heard "fisher" used by U.S. in-groups (that is, by or about fishermen and fisherwomen) too, when it wasn't common years ago. But I have no recorded evidence. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 11 16:52:45 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:52:45 -0500 Subject: "Chair" and [was:] Fisher revival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 08:26 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: >I like the notion that the KJV is in the vanguard of gender-neutral >terminology! Makes me wonder if "chair" = "person presiding at a meeting or for a committee" is in the KJV. That usage also goes way back (OED 9.b., 1659). It too has been a gender-neutral revival. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 17:25:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:25:13 -0500 Subject: Indian eggcorn? Message-ID: The author of the piece is from India or from Bangladesh (I presume this is not the British philosopher of the same name--he is a consultant in Delhi, but often writes on Bangladeshi issues and on China). It's not really an eggcorn so much as the wrong word choice. http://goo.gl/xwYT2 > Diplomatic impunity enjoins the host country to allow the diplomat to > perform his duties without hindrance. I am sure, he meant "diplomatic immunity". He certainly has no problem using "impunity" in the right context. > Arrogance and acting with impunity appears to have become the hallmark > of the Chinese authorities. There are only a couple of other minor quirks that make it look like Indian English, but mostly it's indistinguishable from other materials on international relations. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 17:42:58 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <4F0D129C.3090204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > You are right, of course, except that the groups I played with always > expanded on the original definition, but probably because both kinds of > talk came as a package (we often played with five players, rotating > someone in--particularly when teaching a novice). Of course, the other > default was "table-talk", although that was usually a "conversation" > between partners--not with opponents. I'm sure there were other > Yiddishism flying across the table, but I don't recall them. > > VS-) > In my poker circles, "table-talk" is between "kibitz" and "coffeehouse" in that (like coffeehousing and unlike kibitzing) table-talking may and usually does involve those playing a hand but (unlike coffeehousing) table-talking typically involves true information (or reasoned conclusions) about other players' hands, rather than false information about one's own. The objection ("No table-talk!") is not on the basis of the immorality of lying or dissembling but on the basis that one player might hurt another's chances by imparting information not obvious to one of the table-talkees, such that s/he might tailor behavior (bet, fold, call, raise) accordingly. If A points out (qua table talk) that B is "beat on the board" by C, i.e. that regardless of what B has in the hold, C will have a better hand based on C's up cards, and if B believes A, B will fold, and C will get very upset. LH > On 1/10/2012 11:09 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. >> Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. >> >> LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:23:11 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:23:11 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201111356.q0B62XHB014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > This snowclone I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:34:41 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:34:41 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111823.q0BIM99x013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV and smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones, dumb-TV, dumb-glasses. Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones, snail-TV, snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed myself to work this morning....? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:45:07 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:45:07 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111834.q0BIM9EK006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't be a smartass. VS-) On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV a= > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart= > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C snail= > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed my= > self to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 19:10:29 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:10:29 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110728.q0B61F7Y025748@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 11:27 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > On 1/11/2012 1:27 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. >> > > I think the new Romanization may very well change the prevalence of > [spelling] pronunciations in the US. [I've noticed the analogous trend > in Chinese (hardly anyone was named "Zhang" /ZaN/ back in the day, > right?), although I guess Gen. Tso seems immune so far.] > > I'm not sure I've ever myself seen a spelling with "j" on a menu, or > heard a pronunciation with an obviously voiced initial consonant, but I > might not have noticed. > > I think the most frequent spelling in my limited experience is > "chapchae", which would be a simplified McCune-Reischauer spelling I guess. > > Note however that my experience with chapchae is heavily weighted toward > the Midwest (esp. Chicago area), 1971-1989. Now that I've thought of it, > it's high time to go out for some Pittsburgh japchae/chapch'ae/whatever; > I'll see what the menu says. > > Any analogous tendency for "kimchi"/"kimchee" to acquire a voiced > initial ("gimchi") so far? > My guess is that kimchi is probably safely set in English. Using "gimchi" would just confuse people with no benefit to the writer. Nevertheless, Wikipedia claims it is used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi). I became aware of the RR system when I started seeing Busan instead of Pusan. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Wed Jan 11 19:19:54 2012 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:19:54 -0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111845.q0BIM9Db013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Antonym: dumb blond? But Bloated Craniums can be both highbrows and bubble heads ... Thick as shit ... sharp as mustard Thick as two planks ... the sharpest bulb in the drawer So: How many linguists does it take to parse a lightbulb? Robin -----Original Message----- From: Victor Steinbok Don't be a smartass. VS-) On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV > a= > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so > smart= > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. > = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C > snail= > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed > my= > self to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 19:44:21 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201111647.q0B62Xf1014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My favorite "fishers" of recent times were the "flirty fishers" of the Children of God cult of the '70s: In 1976, Berg encouraged the women members of the group to engage in "flirty fishing". The term was based on Jesus' injunction "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19). Women members were urged to go into bars and befriend men. They were expected to seduce potential male converts if necessary to in order to encourage them towards a religious conversion and membership in the organization. The media had a feeding frenzy with this innovative form of evangelism, portraying the COG women as "Hookers for Jesus." In his 1979 annual report, Berg stated that his "FFers" (Flirty Fishers) had "witnessed to over a quarter of a million souls, loved over 25,000 of them and won about 19,000 to the Lord." http://www.eaec.org/cults/cog.htm Eric On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/11/2012 06:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >>In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be >>used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do >>with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group >>connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved >>with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to >>use the word legitimately. > > My feeling (I'm in the Boston area) is that I've heard "fisher" used > by U.S. in-groups (that is, by or about fishermen and fisherwomen) > too, when it wasn't common years ago. But I have no recorded evidence. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 19:54:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:54:44 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111834.q0BIM9EK006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Tom Zurinskas > Subject: � � � prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last � year. � Now smart-TV and smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. � But since these are so smart > � does it make the opposite dumb: � dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. � = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. � snail-phones snail-TV=2C snail-glasses. � Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". � As a verb? � I roboed myself to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas Conn 20 yrs Tenn 3 NJ 33 now Fl 9.=20 > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > � � � � � � � � � = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Hm. How about _I_? As in, I i'd that chick with the big butt. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:10:23 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:10:23 -0500 Subject: Indian eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <4F0DC5F9.6050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: I love "diplomatic impunity", especially as applied to all those cavalier violators of double- (et al.) parking regulations in NYC who sport diplomats' license plates. LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > The author of the piece is from India or from Bangladesh (I presume this > is not the British philosopher of the same name--he is a consultant in > Delhi, but often writes on Bangladeshi issues and on China). It's not > really an eggcorn so much as the wrong word choice. > > http://goo.gl/xwYT2 >> Diplomatic impunity enjoins the host country to allow the diplomat to >> perform his duties without hindrance. > > I am sure, he meant "diplomatic immunity". He certainly has no problem > using "impunity" in the right context. > >> Arrogance and acting with impunity appears to have become the hallmark >> of the Chinese authorities. > > There are only a couple of other minor quirks that make it look like > Indian English, but mostly it's indistinguishable from other materials > on international relations. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 21:13:03 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201101526.q0A66NJe011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I should have noted that the semantic shift on the Bruce Peninsula was probably induced by the reintroduction of fishers by the Ministry of Natural Resources about ten years ago. The 10,000 year round residents of the Bruce, not including First Nations communities, are, of course, all native speakers of Early Modern English and are strongly influenced by the eight instances of "fisher" in the KJV. Herb On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ronald Butters > Subject: Re: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." >> >> But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: >> >> http://ow.ly/8nN07 >> http://ow.ly/8nN0L >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:13:18 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:13:18 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander > wrote: >> This snowclone > > I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case > that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:49:02 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:49:02 -0500 Subject: free for the asking Message-ID: If any of you collect bogus etymologies of expressions like "piss poor" (and about a dozen others), speak up and I'll pass on a missive sent to another site. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 22:53:42 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:53:42 +0000 Subject: "Deduplicate," "Dedupe," and "Deduplication" Message-ID: I notice that the verbs "deduplicate" and "dedupe," which I use often in my work, are not in OED nor Merriam-Webster. Same with "deduplication" in the sense 'elimination of redundancy.' Google has, respectively, 67,000, 612,000, and 2,150,000 hits for the three words. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 02:53:16 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" Message-ID: Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't sleep on Jermichael Finley". I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. DanG Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 05:53:00 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:53:00 -0500 Subject: Dead men walking Message-ID: This is the primary season and, of course, there are places to discuss that. But I simply could not let this quote go by. http://goo.gl/QGzPB > "If you have voted after you are dead, there is a good, strong > possibility that you did something illegal," he said to reporters > after speaking to the panel. The line came from Retired Army Colonel Kevin Schwedo who is South Carolina's Director of the Department of Motor Vehicles. IMO it's already a QOTY candidate and we're only in the second week of January. I don't want to bore anyone to death with political details, but the reporter's explanation of the mini-scandal deserves a mention: > What's unclear from the analysis released Wednesday to a House > Judiciary Committee panel from the state Department of Motor Vehicles > is whether voter fraud was committed by people assuming the identities > of the deceased or if poor record keeping has resulted in South > Carolina residents being classified as deceased. I don't see much point piling on, as South Carolina has been in the headlines quite often in the last four years--and mostly not for something its residents had done right. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 12 06:34:13 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:34:13 -0800 Subject: Dead men walking In-Reply-To: <201201120553.q0C5butM025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nothing to do with these quotes, but with respect to the title, my opponent once said to me "dead stones walking" in response to a move I made in a go game. That was in California, no later than 2001. (He was several levels above me and I had a total of zero stones still alive.) I see the quote used in only one online post from a game in 2007: http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/Lectures/lecture7.sgf. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 11, 2012, at 9:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > This is the primary season and, of course, there are places to discuss > that. But I simply could not let this quote go by. > > http://goo.gl/QGzPB >> "If you have voted after you are dead, there is a good, strong >> possibility that you did something illegal," he said to reporters >> after speaking to the panel. > > The line came from Retired Army Colonel Kevin Schwedo who is South > Carolina's Director of the Department of Motor Vehicles. IMO it's > already a QOTY candidate and we're only in the second week of January. > > I don't want to bore anyone to death with political details, but the > reporter's explanation of the mini-scandal deserves a mention: > >> What's unclear from the analysis released Wednesday to a House >> Judiciary Committee panel from the state Department of Motor Vehicles >> is whether voter fraud was committed by people assuming the identities >> of the deceased or if poor record keeping has resulted in South >> Carolina residents being classified as deceased. > > I don't see much point piling on, as South Carolina has been in the > headlines quite often in the last four years--and mostly not for > something its residents had done right. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 08:43:14 2012 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:43:14 +0800 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201112113.q0BIM9rq002752@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 5:13 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I > love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". > These are specifically plural (representing a group of people), and have the "to Y" part (representing another kind of people). There is of course another snowclone "shit X say", and the X is again generally plural, but it seems to me that the longer a snowclone is, the more significant it is. > On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case > > that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 16:15:09 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:15:09 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111845.q0BIM9Db013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Don't be a smartass. > > VS-) Don't be a dumbass (see below) And then there's American smart-elevators in Scotland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't be a smartass. > > VS-) > > On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV a= > > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart= > > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. = > > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C snail= > > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > > =20 > > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed my= > > self to work this morning....? > > =20 > > Tom Zurinskas > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 12 16:17:42 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:17:42 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" In-Reply-To: <-3214849093855214334@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 09:53 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint >for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't >sleep on Jermichael Finley". > >I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to >mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. "Don't fall asleep about" (the whereabouts of Finley)? He's a tight end. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 12 16:58:34 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:58:34 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? Message-ID: I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 12 17:00:19 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:00:19 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2012, at 3:43 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 5:13 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I >> love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". >> > > These are specifically plural (representing a group of people), and have > the "to Y" part (representing another kind of people). There is of course > another snowclone "shit X say", and the X is again generally plural, … ...as in http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/10/sht-republican-candidates-say (Not that I'm taking sides, of course, just putting it up as a fresh instance of the snowclone.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 12 17:35:57 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:57 -0600 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0C5buW6025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Is it a jackelope? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Joel S. Berson > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 12 18:11:09 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:11:09 -0600 Subject: barber shopping (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE >From a discussion about the renovation of the Magic Castle in Hollywood (It was involved in a fire last Halloween, and is being renovated/repaired). "I love learning little trivia and last night I learned about the term "barber shopping". It's the terms for mirrors that have been placed at opposite sides of a room that allow for endless reflections. You won't notice at first but the mirrors in the Tiffany Room do just that!" Construction or Interior Decorator slang? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 18:37:37 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" Message-ID: So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to metaphorical. http://goo.gl/eL45K > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina.* Remember > that episode of Mad Men where the pro-Nixon advertising exec airs a > bunch commercials for Secor Laxatives in order to box out Kennedy in > key television markets? OK, this isn’t really like that, but Romney’s > backers over at Restore Our Future have the biggest presence on South > Carolina TV right now. Meanwhile, Newt Gingrich’s PAC has yet to > follow through on its promise to buy $3.4 million of airtime. Team > Romney can probably spend enough money in the next ten days to make > sure that every anti-Mitt ad is bracketed by pro-Romney stuff. Pete > Campbell would approve. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 12 18:48:11 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:48:11 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121837.q0C5cmSh013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to > metaphorical. > > http://goo.gl/eL45K > > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 18:58:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:58:23 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0CFuJ9K009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Personal view: If it's an image, it's a forgery or a fake--the image, not that animal, that is. Otherwise, I would just describe the animal as fictitious or fabricated. Perhaps falsified, but, having dealt with philosophy of science, this may be a loaded term. Why would it have to be a noun? Just add an adjective to "animal" or the supposed name of the critter. With Chinese fakes, where one animal is being sold as another, more expensive animal, we've already had this discussion here. I don't recall a definitive resolution coming out of that. Fake and faux X seem to be particularly apt for describing something that is being sold as X. Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where "fabrication" would be in order. The "scientific" approach would be to prefix "pseudo-"--e.g., something that poses as a shrimp but is not a shrimp would be a pseudo-shrimp. But this point may be lost on the less predisposed audience. VS-) On 1/12/2012 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 19:30:26 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:30:26 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" In-Reply-To: <201201121617.q0C5buRa025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I heard the usage "Don't sleep on the 49ers" from Joe Benigno on WFAN radio in NYC this morning. DanG On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Don't sleep on" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/11/2012 09:53 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint > >for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't > >sleep on Jermichael Finley". > > > >I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to > >mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. > > "Don't fall asleep about" (the whereabouts of Finley)? He's a tight end. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 12 19:36:07 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:36:07 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorenson may be conflating "firewall" with "firebreak." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ben Zimmer Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: new use for "firewall" On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to > metaphorical. > > http://goo.gl/eL45K > > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 12 22:43:21 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:43:21 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0CH042T003646@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A chimera? GAT On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 23:18:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:18:26 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: With all due respect to the earlier discovery, this one appears to be different. The Rove/Liasson/Glenn usage was the entire state as a firewall blocking another candidate's path to nomination. In this case, they are building a firewall to prevent another candidate from winning the state. The former likely had been derived from the physical firewall, but the new one appears to have roots in the electronic world. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 23:31:27 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:31:27 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was just watching Man vs. Food and Adam Richman mentioned "foodwall blocking my way". The foodwall won. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Jan 12 23:51:15 2012 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:51:15 -0600 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One would think there would be a well know carny word for that. On 1/12/2012 4:43 PM, George Thompson wrote: > A chimera? > > GAT > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not >> genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. >> >> "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does >> "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible >> too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Her brain rattled around in her skull like a BB in a boxcar." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 13 00:10:21 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:10:21 -0800 Subject: Chinese zodiac Message-ID: The OED has a draft addition under "zodiac" to include the Chinese zodiac, with citations going back to 1784. Despite entries on Western zodiac signs (such as capricorn), however, none of the animals of the Chinese zodiac get their full due. Also, expressions such as "hour of the horse" and "year of the horse" are found in literature and deserve full treatment. I also wonder about "Originally in China and East Asia" in the definition of zodiac. If I did not know better, I would read that to mean that until the modern age (perhaps the last century or two), the Chinese zodiac was restricted to China, East Asia and any other pockets of immigrants from those areas. But that ignores the traditional presence of the Chinese zodiac in Southeast Asia, Kazakhstan and Hungary, which go back hundreds of years (with modifications). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 01:32:57 2012 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:32:57 -0500 Subject: Psychedelic? Message-ID: On NPR this morning, there was a report about Connie Rice, who wrote a book about the LAPD (which she also brought lawsuits against). The LAPD was hosting the book-signing event--and the reporter described this as "psychedelic." I think surreal was meant (since, after all, Ms. Rice had begun her career suing the LAPD and was being feted by them today). Barbara Barbara Need Etna, NY ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Fri Jan 13 03:24:44 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:24:44 -0500 Subject: con Message-ID: I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 03:25:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:25:31 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201112113.q0BIM95M006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Larry, but I'm afraid that it's still over my head. "I love me some some Miss Jankins." I get this as a kind of wordplay: "I love Miss Jankins" is crossed with "I love me some barbecue" yielding "I love me some Miss Jankins" merely for effect. IMO, "mother of all [whatever]" is semantically non-distinct from "[whatever]'s mama" OTOH, is "Shit * say to *" exemplified by "Shit (that) doods say to chicks" ? Whether the answer be yea or nay, I still need Snowclones for Dummies. So, after a quick read in the electronic equivalent thereof, the relevant article in W:pedia - should have thought of doing that to begin with - I understand that _shit * say to *_ is, indeed, a snowclone. Furthermore, _W:pedia_ is a kind of snowclone. A Swedish friend customarily abbreviated my name as _W:son_' When I asked about this, I was told that, in Sweden, names ending in _son_ or _dotter_ are - or were, fifty years ago - routinely abbreviated in this fashion, since everybody understands that A:son, J:son, L:son, et sim. represent "Arneson, Johannson, "Larsson," et sim. Hence, _W:pedia_, under my assumption that anyone will immediately grasp that this is "Wikipedia" and nothing else, even without knowledge of the Swedish model. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Laurence Horn > Subject: � � � Re: Shit * say to * (snowclone) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". > > LH > > On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander >> wrote: >>> This snowclone >> >> I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case >> that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 04:19:44 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:19:44 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? Message-ID: I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 04:26:20 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:26:20 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <4F0F2D4F.3060408@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/12/2012 01:58 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where >"fabrication" would be in order. I'm quite sure there were many more fabricated live animals displayed in stationary or traveling zoos and sideshows in the 17th through 19th, if not also 20th, centuries, than the two above. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 04:56:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:56:11 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201130426.q0CJALAn013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: >>Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where >>"fabrication" would be in order. Joel S. Berson wrote: > I'm quite sure there were many more fabricated live animals displayed > in stationary or traveling zoos and sideshows in the 17th through > 19th, if not also 20th, centuries, than the two above. A couple years ago I posted about a "unicorn" exhibited by Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus in the 1980s. Here is a link to a Chicago Tribune article discussing the topic: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-10-18/entertainment/8503110287_1_lancelot-ringling-brothers-animal The existence of a one-horned creature was reported back in 1936 in the Time magazine article below. It supposedly was created (fabricated, mutilated, manipulated, synthesized) by transplanting the horn buds of an animal so that they were adjacent. The resulting animal grew a single fused horn. The following link only shows part of the article to non-subscribers: Citation: Science: Unicorn, Time, May. 04, 1936. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,882648,00.html Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 13 04:56:35 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:56:35 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201130419.q0D4Ji0d020898@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but _vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first quote from 1978. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 13:59:23 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:59:23 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <20120113045635.GB10317@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch > list for WOTY. > >Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but >_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first >quote from 1978. While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 13 15:29:20 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:29:20 -0500 Subject: cattery Message-ID: The OED has the following definition for "cattery": An establishment of cats. 1791 G. Huddesford *Monody Death Dick* in *Salmagundi * 133 Enshrin'd celestial Cateries among, the sable Matron. 1827 R. Southey *Select. Lett. * (1856) IV. 171 All the royal Cattery of Cats' Eden. *a*1843 R. Southey *Doctor * (1847) VII. 587 An evil fortune attended all our attempts at re-establishing a Cattery. No doubt this entry was composed when Queen Victoria was hobbling about the Palace with a walker, and there's been no pressing need to revise it since. Still, the quotations are pretty baffling -- Zen, we would have said, 50 years ago. Anyway, a current meaning of the word is an establishment where kittens are bred for sale. Perhaps this is what Southey had in mind? There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic representative of the breed. I've been corresponding with catteries that sell "Siberian Forest Cats". If any of you have experience with this breed, I would like to know of it. Off-list, of course. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 16:06:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:06:21 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201131359.q0D5nWZc013664@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some quarters as vulture capitalists. [End excerpt] Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. [End excerpt] Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? [End excerpt] Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be kept out of the country [End excerpt] Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) [Begin excerpt] All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if necessary will be sentenced to death." [End excerpt] Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association for Asian Studies (JSTOR) http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 [Begin excerpt] In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong Rojong. [End excerpt] Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. Best Garson On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the > new year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >>On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch >> list for WOTY. >> >>Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but >>_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first >>quote from 1978. > > While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in > diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 13 16:28:03 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:03 -0600 Subject: con (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201130324.q0CKZLAA025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Con as in convict or con as in confidence game? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Dan Nussbaum > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:25 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: con > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Nussbaum > Subject: con > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusu= > al is this? > > > Dan Nussbaum=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 17:54:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:54:23 -0500 Subject: edification == education? Message-ID: Edification 2.b. in the OED runs out in 1875--which is, in fact, the latest citation in that entire article. The 2.b. definition is a bit murky: > 2. b. Mental or moral improvement, intellectual profit; instruction. > (Now often /ironical/.) But it certainly is less murky in this passage: http://goo.gl/Vdm77 > The spokesman for the Committee, Robert Dillon, says that this contest > wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful of the firefighters who > are pretty much putting their lives on the line every time they go up > in one of those rickety planes or face a wildfire on the line. It's > meant instead for the edification of eastern lawmakers who aren't as > experienced in wildfire. "It's not an official way to educate them," > Dillon said. "It's a fun, backroom way to do it." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 18:06:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:06:36 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms Message-ID: As TPM has been documenting, the political phrase of the month seems to be "Quiet rooms"-- http://goo.gl/CNUZ6 > Too bad for Mitt Romney. Turns out income inequality--that thing he > claims has no place in our political debate, or anywhere outside of > "quiet rooms"--will be a central theme of President Obama's > re-election message. http://goo.gl/jDorp > [Matt Lauer]: Are there no fair questions about the distribution of > wealth without it being seen as envy, though? > ROMNEY: [You know,] I think it's fine to talk about those things in > quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like. But the > president has made it part of his campaign rally. TPM is not the only one to mock Romney for "quiet rooms". http://goo.gl/sSGiM Shhhh! Romney wants economy talk in 'quiet rooms' > We're going to talk about the widening income gap between rich and > poor, tax policy and the seemliness of predatory investing, and GOP > presidential front-runner Mitt Romney wants us to do so only "in quiet > rooms." http://goo.gl/G27ox Oh, yes he did! Romney requests conversations about income inequality be conducted in 'quiet rooms' [The one above comes with the video] http://goo.gl/zUhN7 'Quiet Rooms' and Republican Class War > This is not a debate they feel they can win even among Republican > voters, a majority of whom actually favor higher taxes on the rich. > Romney's assertion yesterday that economic inequality should not be > discussed, or should only be mentioned in "quiet rooms," is a > too-frank expression of the GOP elite’s actual belief that the issue > must be kept out of political debate. > ... >> MR. FLEISCHER: I think if someone were to make a rather economic, >> esoteric, scholarly argument like you just did, that wouldn't be >> class warfare. > "Esoteric, scholarly" captures the same idea Romney is attempting to > invoke with "quiet rooms." I thought the whole point of "quiet rooms" is /not/ to have discussions there. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 18:36:11 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:36:11 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <4F1072AC.6050804@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/13/2012 01:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >I thought the whole point of "quiet rooms" is /not/ to have discussions >there. Not how I remember the purpose of "The Cone of Silence". (My authority: viewing, and Wikipedia.) I think the whole point is to have discussions only the ins (perhaps the 1%?) can hear -- in the Romney instance, to keep them away from the voters. I hadn't noticed this phrase before, but rather revealing about him, I think. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kenhirsch at FTML.NET Fri Jan 13 23:25:35 2012 From: kenhirsch at FTML.NET (Ken Hirsch) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:25:35 -0500 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" Message-ID: I heard this on the radio: "The next step is sculpting the river bank back to its original shape. They call it 're-meandering the creek'." It seems to be an up-and-coming word, with the -ing form the most common. Some links: - Remeandering straightened rivers - Remeander water courses - genslyngning af Stavis Å - Google web search for meandering - Google book search for remeandering I note that the oldest uses of "remeandering" on GBS are about surveying a river, not changing its course. The OED has a related usage under "meandered". A few of the uses are passive ones, something that just happens to a river. Most of the new uses are transitive, something that is actively done to a river. Searching on "remeanding" also led me to "daylighting" - Stream Corridor Improvements – Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly Culverts - Creek Daylighting FAQ (pdf) "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" Ken Hirsch ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 13 23:59:04 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:59:04 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. GAT On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture > capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The > phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but > earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. > > Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce > Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. > (ProQuest) > [Begin excerpt] > No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some > quarters as vulture capitalists. > [End excerpt] > > Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. > > Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, > Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) > [Begin excerpt] > The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture > capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one > repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas > Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive > Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) > http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& > [Begin excerpt] > For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred > proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all > individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an > illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New > York. (ProQuest) > [Begin excerpt] > But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you > with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the > vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that > Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be > kept out of the country > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., > New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) > [Begin excerpt] > All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of > "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the > expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be > arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if > necessary will be sentenced to death." > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some > Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two > Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in > Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living > Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; > Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese > Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, > Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association > for Asian Studies (JSTOR) > http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 > [Begin excerpt] > In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, > President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight > Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently > characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced > by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong > Rojong. > [End excerpt] > > Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. > Best Garson > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start > of the > > new year? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >>On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch > >> list for WOTY. > >> > >>Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but > >>_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first > >>quote from 1978. > > > > While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in > > diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 14 01:19:15 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 17:19:15 -0800 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" In-Reply-To: <201201140056.q0E0u0AC009204@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I learned this use of "daylight" from a friend of mine who uses it as a verb. I reported that use as early as 1916 last month: (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1112D&L=ADS-L&P=R2746&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) It seems to be common these days given the movement in water feature restoration. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 13, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Ken Hirsch wrote: > Searching on "remeanding" also led me to "daylighting" > > > - Stream Corridor Improvements =96 Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, > Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly > Culverts es-for-protecting-water-quality-2013-natural-lawns-rain-gardens-downspout-d= > isconnection> > - Creek Daylighting > FAQ _FAQ_and_Case_Studies.pdf> > (pdf) > "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, > streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, > covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" > > Ken Hirsch ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:11:56 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:11:56 -0500 Subject: News: Research Archive JStor Moves Toward Open Access Message-ID: The following article excerpt may particularly interest independent researchers without academic affiliations. Technology Review Research Archive JStor Moves Toward Open Access A nonprofit organization that holds millions of pieces of academic work will soon let the public see it for free. Friday, January 13, 2012 By Brian Bergstein http://www.technologyreview.com/web/39448/?p1=A2 An organization that maintains a huge database of academic research plans to soon let the public view some of the trove of information for free - a big boost for the idea of "open access" to the world's knowledge. As part of its new program, which is expected to enter beta mode in the coming weeks, the JStor service will let anyone view articles from 70 journals after registering with the website. The reader then can view up to three documents at a time in a "frame" on the site. There are some limitations. For one thing, the free access won't let readers download or print the articles; those privileges will still be reserved for people who buy the articles or are affiliated with schools and libraries that pay for JStor subscriptions. Second, this beta program includes just a small portion of the 1,400 academic journals in JStor's online database. However, if it works out, JStor says, it could expand the program to most or nearly all of the database. (Follow the link above to read more.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:12:53 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:12:53 +0000 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201130419.q0CKZLBg025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Indeed - And add "Super Pacs" to that list. What hath the Republican majority appointed Stupreme Court wrought? Do they think political ads are not coordinated with candidates or parties? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee Super PACs The 2010 election marked the rise of a new political committee, dubbed "super PACs," and officially known as "independent-expenditure only committees," which can raise unlimited sums from corporations, unions and other groups, as well as individuals.[5] The super PACs were made possible by two judicial decisions. The first was the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission which held that government may not prohibit unions and corporations from making independent expenditures about politics. Soon after, in Speechnow.org v. FEC, the Federal Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit held that contributions to groups that only make independent expenditures could not be limited.[6] Super PACs are not allowed to coordinate directly with candidates or political parties. They are required to disclose their donors, just like traditional PACs.[7] However many exploit a technicality in the filing requirements in order to postpone disclosure until well af! ter the elections they participate in.[8] Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:19:44 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new > year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:35:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140056.q0E0u0Hn029041@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] VS-) On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: > I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier > examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. > > GAT > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > >> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture >> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The >> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but >> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. >> >> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce >> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. >> (ProQuest) >> [Begin excerpt] >> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some >> quarters as vulture capitalists. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. >> >> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, >> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) >> [Begin excerpt] >> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture >> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one >> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas >> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive >> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) >> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& >> [Begin excerpt] >> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred >> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all >> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an >> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New >> York. (ProQuest) >> [Begin excerpt] >> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you >> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the >> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that >> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be >> kept out of the country >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., >> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) >> [Begin excerpt] >> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of >> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the >> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be >> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if >> necessary will be sentenced to death." >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some >> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two >> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in >> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living >> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; >> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese >> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, >> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association >> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) >> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 >> [Begin excerpt] >> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, >> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight >> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently >> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced >> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong >> Rojong. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. >> Best Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 03:21:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:21:29 -0500 Subject: Tim TeBowie Message-ID: The portmanteau/blend you've been waiting for... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxMX-lR7Hs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Sat Jan 14 03:39:50 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 03:39:50 +0000 Subject: this has been your time to shine Message-ID:

I could barely afford groceries anymore there is nothing else like this out there despite the circumstances I never lost hope.
http://77.61.243.195/newsjournal/89StephenCooper/ now im on top of my game
see what I mean for yourself!
see you later

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 04:46:35 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:46:35 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140235.q0E0u0Vf001536@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to George, Victor, and other participants on this thread for comments. I think the 1971 date for "venture capitalist" can be pushed back. Here is a citation in 1946 and one in 1953. Cite: 1946 July 27, Collier's Weekly, The Truth About Henry Kaiser by Lester Velie, Start Page 11, Quote Page 12, Column 3, The Crowell-Collier Publishing Company. (Unz) [Begin excerpt] To friendly officials in Washington, Mr. Kaiser is a great natural resource during peace as he was during war - the sort of venture capitalist our economy needs to make it grow. To critics, he is the pampered darling of the New Deal, the greatest individual beneficiary of government largesse in history. [End excerpt] Cite: 1953 June 27, The Saturday Review, Human Want Is Obsolete by Gerard Piel, Start Page 9, Quote Page 10, Column 2, Saturday Review Associates Inc., New York. (Unz) [Begin excerpt] What science needs is brave money-with no strings attached. We are not being brave enough when we find it necessary to invoke the prospect of practical results in order to justify support of basic science. But if results are all that is wanted, it takes a reckless venture capitalist to back basic research. [End excerpt] The 1959 Time magazine cite given earlier quotes Sukarno using the phrase "vulture capitalists". This was after "venture capitalist" entered circulation. However, the magazine article does not indicate whether Sukarno was speaking English when he used the term. If he was not speaking English then the wordplay of "venture" and "vulture" may not be relevant. Knowledge of the untranslated words might be helpful. The 1972 Boston Globe cite may still be the earliest one that explicitly connects "vulture capitalist" and "venture capitalist". Garson On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the > new year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling > ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese > expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus > Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears > to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] > > VS-) > > On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier >> examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. >> >> GAT >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> >>> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture >>> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The >>> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but >>> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. >>> >>> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce >>> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. >>> (ProQuest) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some >>> quarters as vulture capitalists. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. >>> >>> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, >>> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture >>> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one >>> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas >>> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive >>> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred >>> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all >>> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an >>> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New >>> York. (ProQuest) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you >>> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the >>> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that >>> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be >>> kept out of the country >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., >>> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of >>> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the >>> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be >>> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if >>> necessary will be sentenced to death." >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some >>> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two >>> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in >>> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living >>> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; >>> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese >>> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, >>> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association >>> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) >>> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, >>> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight >>> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently >>> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced >>> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong >>> Rojong. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. >>> Best Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 06:20:41 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:20:41 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201131806.q0D5nW3M013664@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > 'Quiet Rooms' Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 14:27:07 2012 From: martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM (Martin Kaminer) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:27:07 -0600 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201130326.q0CJAL93013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of possible interest/relevance from a related list: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kerim Friedman Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:41 PM Subject: Re: AV tools for teaching intro to ling anth (esp. films, youtubes, etc) To: LINGANTH at listserv.linguistlist.org Here are some more videos that might be useful for teaching, from Mother Jones: Roundup of our favorite "Shit [insert race, gender, sexual orientation] Say" videos http://mojo.ly/zCignw - Kerim ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 15:33:51 2012 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:33:51 -0600 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201140621.q0E5f2vx002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent in the schools than psychiatric terms. Darla 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Quiet rooms > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > 'Quiet Rooms' > > Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Jan 14 19:02:03 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:02:03 -0800 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:25:35 zone minus 0500 Ken Hirsch wrote Searching on "remeanding" [sic?] also led me to "daylighting" - Stream Corridor Improvements =96 Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly FAQ "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" "Daylighting" is a term that has been around in civil engineering for years with the meaning "to convert a tunnel into an open cut" (where "open cut" means that the roof of the tunnel has been removed so that the ground level now goes down to the base of the former tunnel). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tom Zurinskas asks: "What hath the Republican majority appointed Stupreme Court wrought? Do they think political ads are not coordinated with candidates or parties?" It's very easy NOT to coordinate with a candidate or his/her campaign. I imagine every super-PAC has lawyers making sure there is no contact between the super-PAC and the candidate. Reading in the newspaper what the candidate says and acting on it is NOT "coordinating". What I worry about is how a candidate can shut up a super-PAC that claims to be supporting him but actually is embarrassing him. I imagine we will hear accounts in court cases and FEC hearings about how the candidate's campaign manager forced the leaders of the super-PAC---at gunpoint, preferably---to sit (in a "quiet room"?) and listen to him read off a detailed schedule of the candidate's future speeches, talking points, etc, so as to knock the super-PAC out of the "non-coordinating" category. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wilson Gray's favorite DOD agency: the Wikileaks Task Force - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 14 19:26:55 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:26:55 -0500 Subject: "puff and stratagem" Message-ID: Perhaps the antecedent of "smoke and mirrors"? "Imagining I should find the extraordinary Accounts which have been so frequently set forth in the News Papers, of the Creature called a _Chimpanzie_ to be nothing but Puff and Stratagem, to draw in the Multitude ...". He went to see it himself, and was disabused of his former opinion. Between 1738 Sept. and 1739 Feb., probably Oct. or Nov. Letter from "Publicus". Cited in G. S. Rousseau, _Enlightenment Crossings: Pre- and Post-Modern Discourses, Anthropological_ (Manchester University Press, 1991; ISBM 0-7190-3072-2), p. 201. Rousseau unfortunately does not identify the specific London newspaper. Rousseau's quotation is the only Google Everything hit. The OED has "puff and promise" in 2004. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 19:42:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:42:28 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201141533.q0E5f2IN002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. VS-) On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: > I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with > resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, > also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent > in the schools than psychiatric terms. > Darla > > 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > > Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 14 19:47:10 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:10 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <4F11DAA4.2030000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > VS-) Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are pretty noisy, depending on the trains. LH > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. >> Darla >> >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray >> >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Jan 14 20:18:36 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:18:36 -0800 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart Message-ID: This topic needs some background. What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. End of lecture. - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 14 20:28:48 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:28:48 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <20120114121836.D49128C7@resin03.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: Then there were those "smart bombs" so much in the news a few years back, which may have helped the metaphoricization process along. LH On Jan 14, 2012, at 3:18 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > This topic needs some background. > > What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. > > Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". > > Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). > > CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". > > Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". > > Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. > > Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) > > Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. > > End of lecture. > > - Jim Landau > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 14 20:49:56 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:49:56 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So "quiet" can mean either "quiet" or "talkative". (E.g., the former for a railroad car; the latter for Romney's room, or The Cone of Silence.) Youneverknow. Joel At 1/14/2012 02:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > > > VS-) > >Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell >phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are >pretty noisy, depending on the trains. > >LH > > > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: > >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with > >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, > >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be > more prevalent > >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. > >> Darla > >> > >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > >> > >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > >> > >> Youneverknow. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 21:15:22 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:15:22 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201142018.q0ECsPT4006505@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some terms pre-exist but suddenly come of age, like smartphone last year standing for those swipe-type phones. More "smarts" from Gizmag.com (a great site to see a wonderfully smart future) New "smart" polymer opens door for medical use of low-power near-infrared light Researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) have conducted initial testing of a new “smart” plastic material which may bring about new uses in medicine for near-infrared light (NIR). According to early experiments, the plastic material will break down into non-toxic particles in response to lower-power NIR. This may lead to improved treatment of, for example, tumors, or improvements in the release of tracing compounds and imaging agents for improved medical diagnostics applications. Polaroid’s Android-powered, 16-megapixel Smart Camera With most people happy to make do with camera phones for their digital image snapping needs in the majority of situations and the quality of such devices improving markedly in recent years, makers of dedicated consumer-level cameras face an increasingly tough row to hoe. At CES 2012, Polaroid has announced its SC1630 Smart Camera that attempts to blur the lines between a camera phone and dedicated camera with its smartphone-like form factor and being one of the first dedicated cameras to run on Android. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This topic needs some background. > > What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. > > Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". > > Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). > > CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". > > Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". > > Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. > > Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) > > Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. > > End of lecture. > > - Jim Landau > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 14 22:32:26 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:32:26 +0200 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201142028.q0E5f2U7002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Then there were those "smart bombs" so much in the news a few years > back, which may have helped the metaphoricization process along. See also Mark Peters' smart take on smart-words from 2010: http://www.good.is/post/anatomy-of-a-smart-word/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 15 03:47:11 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:47:11 -0800 Subject: Kanban Message-ID: I'm having trouble with the OED's definition 1 for kanban. It says: ----- In Japanese industry: a card or sheet displaying a set of manufacturing specifications and requirements which is circulated to suppliers and sent along a production line to regulate the supply of components. ----- At essence, a kanban (or kanban card) is simply a card that identifies a component and accompanies that component (or box, etc. of components). Typically the kanban accompanies the component when it is delivered to the line. When the worker uses the component (or uses up the box of components), the worker sends the kanban back to production. Production then knows that a replacement is needed. Sure, as the OED definition says, the kanban can also be sent to the supplier, and I suppose it can include specifications and requirements, but those are incidental to the kanban. I wonder if the third citation has caused confusion. It says: ----- A Kanban is actually a small card on which directions are given to produce or deliver a certain item. A Kanban is thus a tool that triggers production or delivery of necessary products in the appropriate quantities at the precise time. The simplicity of Kanban is refreshing—no elaborate computer programs or multisheet ordering forms. ----- I would take "directions are given to produce or deliver a certain item" to be somewhat metaphorical. It may be that there is a system that actually has a set of directions, but my general take would be that the kanban itself is the "directions." When production gets the kanban, the "directions" are "order another one of me." Also, I think "Japanese industry" might be expanded to "lean manufacturing." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 04:10:35 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 04:10:35 +0000 Subject: Quiet rooms Message-ID: whisper-quiet was first used to describe automobiles and typewriters, according to research I carried out in a trademark infringement case a number of years ago. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:47:10 PM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Quiet rooms On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > VS-) Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are pretty noisy, depending on the trains. LH > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. >> Darla >> >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray >> >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 15 06:52:42 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:52:42 -0500 Subject: dime In-Reply-To: <4F05478C.7010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: A couple more instances from ESPN post-game coverage after SF-NO playoff game. > Talk about a dime! This was a comment by Marcellus Wiley about one of New Orleans touchdowns. A few minutes later he used similar language to describe a San Francisco touchdown. But ESPN was not done yet. Late post-game NFL Primetime used the footage for the winning SF touchdown as the "Primetime Dime" feature. I have no idea if this is a regular feature or just a special category for today (but it had its own special logo). In an entirely different context, in Season 5 Episode 7 of Psych, the word "dime" appears several times. > 00:17:17 > Shawn: Yeah, man, he's right. > I ain't trying to die. > > Craig (Chi McBride): Look, man, you ain't > the only one with a dime piece ... > 00:30:15 > Juliet: Hey, guys, any new leads? > > Craig: How you feel, mama? > > Shawn: Dude...Really? > > Craig: She a dime piece. > > Shawn: Dime piece? > ?: What is that, > like an invisible stopwatch > ?: or a chocolate coin? > > Juliet: It's a hot woman. > A ten. > And thank you. > > Craig: Oh, yeah. > > ?: Wow > > Craig: You ain't the only one > with a dime piece > waiting for him out there. > > ?: Dime piece. > Craig: Northcutt has a girlfriend. I don't have the recording, so I was reconstructing some of the dialog from memory and some from available soundtrack pieces (Hence some lines attributed to "?"). A couple more football-related comments. On overnight SportsCenter (1 am ET): "People of San Francisco have been Tebowing for years waiting for Alex Smith to emerge." This seems to be just a straight substitute for "praying" rather than an association with the specific Tebowing gesture. "The Show", "the Big Show", "going to the Big Show" are references to 1) major leagues (baseball, hockey or something else) or 2) the playoffs or some sort of a championship game (e.g., the World Series, the Superbowl, the All-Star Game, etc.). I am not sure if any of the phrases are used in the UK, although I've heard the reference in a couple of soccer (football) broadcasts in reference to some players from lower-level leagues being transferred to top-tier teams (e.g., from a Championship team to a Premiership team in England). But in all cases it was in US broadcasts of English games, so I'm not sure of the provenance of the phrasing. Whatever the case, "the Bigs" is in the OED, but the variants on "The Show" are not (show n.1 15.b. refers to military battles or campaigns--both for The Show and The Big Show). Final comment: "showboating" is listed in the OED as a derivative under "showboater", but not under "showboat v.". That makes no sense. VS-) On 1/5/2012 1:47 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance > can't hurt. > > "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN > Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball > game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 15 08:14:09 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:14:09 +0700 Subject: syntactic variation in NYCE Message-ID: Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone knows of work documentation or analysis of the non-standard counterfactual conditional pattern woulda …woulda (alternatively would've …would've) as in "I woulda gone if I woulda known" "I wouldn't have murdered him if he wouldn't have eaten my pizza" in New York City English these are the normal way counter-factuality is expressed. But I only have my own anecdotal experience encountering them. A google scholar search came up pretty empty. These and interrogative forms in indirect questions (covered ages ago by Ron Butters) are about the main non-standard structures that strike me as characteristic of White versions of NYCE besides non-standard forms found everywhere (e.g., ain't, double negatives). But I'm eager to hear of any others. I did here a claim that NYers barely use present perfect. However, I have no evidence to this effect. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 13:27:13 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:27:13 +0000 Subject: syntactic variation in NYCE Message-ID: Such nonstandard variants as "Gore may have won the election" are quite common and have been discussed in various places. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Michael Newman To: Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:14:09 PM GMT+0700 Subject: [ADS-L] syntactic variation in NYCE Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone knows of work documentation or analysis of the non-standard counterfactual conditional pattern woulda …woulda (alternatively would've …would've) as in "I woulda gone if I woulda known" "I wouldn't have murdered him if he wouldn't have eaten my pizza" in New York City English these are the normal way counter-factuality is expressed. But I only have my own anecdotal experience encountering them. A google scholar search came up pretty empty. These and interrogative forms in indirect questions (covered ages ago by Ron Butters) are about the main non-standard structures that strike me as characteristic of White versions of NYCE besides non-standard forms found everywhere (e.g., ain't, double negatives). But I'm eager to hear of any others. I did here a claim that NYers barely use present perfect. However, I have no evidence to this effect. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 14:35:28 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:35:28 -0500 Subject: dime In-Reply-To: <4F1277BA.2080501@gmail.com> Message-ID: One more, reprising a construction we've been discussing: Mike Francesa, on his syndicated TV/Radio "Football Sunday" analysis show this morning, tells us that "The Niners are worthy of respect. If you had watched them this year and hadn't gone to sleep on them, especially in December, you saw that this team was legitimate". I noticed the "dime" references on ESPN, and while Victor doesn't speculate, my assumption is that while they do indeed refer to "dropping a dime", (as opposed to say the dime that someone or something can stop on), they differ from the "drop a dime on" that alludes to turning someone (e.g. a confederate) in to the authorities, as we've discussed earlier. In this football usage, the dime represents a very small object that can (or can't) be dropped into a very tight place (thrown accurately to a receiver closely covered). But it is probably is related to the basketball "assist" sense Victor mentions as well. Interesting about the generalization of "Tebowing", which I hadn't heard but isn't too surprising. As for "the show" = 'the major leagues' as in Victor's sense 1) below, I think its trajectory received a big boost at the time from the movie _Bull Durham_. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 1:52 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > A couple more instances from ESPN post-game coverage after SF-NO playoff > game. > >> Talk about a dime! > > This was a comment by Marcellus Wiley about one of New Orleans > touchdowns. A few minutes later he used similar language to describe a > San Francisco touchdown. > > But ESPN was not done yet. Late post-game NFL Primetime used the footage > for the winning SF touchdown as the "Primetime Dime" feature. I have no > idea if this is a regular feature or just a special category for today > (but it had its own special logo). > > In an entirely different context, in Season 5 Episode 7 of Psych, the > word "dime" appears several times. >> 00:17:17 >> Shawn: Yeah, man, he's right. >> I ain't trying to die. >> >> Craig (Chi McBride): Look, man, you ain't >> the only one with a dime piece > ... >> 00:30:15 >> Juliet: Hey, guys, any new leads? >> >> Craig: How you feel, mama? >> >> Shawn: Dude...Really? >> >> Craig: She a dime piece. >> >> Shawn: Dime piece? >> ?: What is that, >> like an invisible stopwatch >> ?: or a chocolate coin? >> >> Juliet: It's a hot woman. >> A ten. >> And thank you. >> >> Craig: Oh, yeah. >> >> ?: Wow >> >> Craig: You ain't the only one >> with a dime piece >> waiting for him out there. >> >> ?: Dime piece. >> Craig: Northcutt has a girlfriend. > > I don't have the recording, so I was reconstructing some of the dialog > from memory and some from available soundtrack pieces (Hence some lines > attributed to "?"). > > A couple more football-related comments. > > On overnight SportsCenter (1 am ET): > > "People of San Francisco have been Tebowing for years waiting for Alex > Smith to emerge." > > This seems to be just a straight substitute for "praying" rather than an > association with the specific Tebowing gesture. > > "The Show", "the Big Show", "going to the Big Show" are references to 1) > major leagues (baseball, hockey or something else) or 2) the playoffs or > some sort of a championship game (e.g., the World Series, the Superbowl, > the All-Star Game, etc.). I am not sure if any of the phrases are used > in the UK, although I've heard the reference in a couple of soccer > (football) broadcasts in reference to some players from lower-level > leagues being transferred to top-tier teams (e.g., from a Championship > team to a Premiership team in England). But in all cases it was in US > broadcasts of English games, so I'm not sure of the provenance of the > phrasing. Whatever the case, "the Bigs" is in the OED, but the variants > on "The Show" are not (show n.1 15.b. refers to military battles or > campaigns--both for The Show and The Big Show). > > Final comment: "showboating" is listed in the OED as a derivative under > "showboater", but not under "showboat v.". That makes no sense. > > VS-) > > On 1/5/2012 1:47 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance >> can't hurt. >> >> "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN >> Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball >> game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:21:39 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:21:39 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E073942@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Yes, "humen" was a joke. Sent from my iPad On Jan 11, 2012, at 10:51 AM, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> >> Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the > word >> "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate > humen in >> the English-speaking world. >> > > As opposed to "humen" . . . > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:26:28 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:26:28 -0500 Subject: con (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E073959@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? Sent from my iPad On Jan 13, 2012, at 11:28 AM, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Con as in convict or con as in confidence game? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of >> Dan Nussbaum >> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:25 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: con >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ---------------------- >> - >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Nussbaum >> Subject: con >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ >> - >> >> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How > unusu= >> al is this? >> >> >> Dan Nussbaum=20 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:23:50 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:23:50 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <8CE9FBA0769B0A5-241C-FD903@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? > > > Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 15 19:21:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:21:48 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <201201151548.q0F4VIBE017583@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to appear in a psychiatric paper. VS-) On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > >> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >> >> >> Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 19:25:41 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: on the retronym watch: "human translation" Message-ID: Don't know if this one has been mentioned, although no doubt some of its cousins have. Today I got an unsolicited solicitation from a company that promises to provide "Fast and affordable human translation". In the old days, before computers, tricorders, and dolphins got into the act, this was known as "translation". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 19:29:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:29:03 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <4F13274C.1000703@gmail.com> Message-ID: If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But > there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of > these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to > appear in a psychiatric paper. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> >>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>> >>> >>> Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 20:48:05 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:48:05 +0000 Subject: con Message-ID: but why would a psych article mention rabbits? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:29:03 PM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] con If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But > there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of > these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to > appear in a psychiatric paper. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> >>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>> >>> >>> Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 21:09:44 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:09:44 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <201201152048.q0FKm62J001034@mr2.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Um… (Actually, _connil_ did once refer to refer to French bunnies, but was tabooed out of the language the same way, and for the same reason, that _coney_ was in English.) _con_ (< Lat. _cunnus_) is a pretty interesting item in French, though, with its primary (nominal) meaning of 'cunt' and its secondary (adjectival) meaning of 'stupid' ("C'est con"). It was in the former sense I was thinking it might have emerged in the context of a psychoanalytic exchange, but youneverknow. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 3:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > but why would a psych article mention rabbits? > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Laurence Horn > To: > Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:29:03 PM GMT-0500 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] con > > If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. > > LH > > On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But >> there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of >> these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to >> appear in a psychiatric paper. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >>> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>>> >>>> >>>> Dan Nussbaum >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 16 03:01:15 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:01:15 -0500 Subject: con[ey] In-Reply-To: <201201152048.q0FKm6vS008180@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 1/15/2012 03:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >but why would a psych article mention rabbits? It might be about the fear of evil mutant bunny rabbits -- leporiphobia. Consider: "Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit" "Monte Python and the Holy Grail" And Edward P. Dowd is a case all by himself. (Or, as was said about Basil Fawlty by one of the two doctors, Mr. and Mrs., "there's enough there for an article.") There is also the case of "Little Albert": see Wikipedia. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:07:03 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:07:03 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: bagel (OED 1919) 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:15:23 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:15:23 -0800 Subject: con[ey] In-Reply-To: <201201160302.q0FB00p2014316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2012, at 7:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/15/2012 03:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >> but why would a psych article mention rabbits? i must have missed this, but did the original poster ever give us anything about the context, beyond that it was in an article about psychiatry? the guessing-game is entertaining, but tedious. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:34:29 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:34:29 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Anti-Semitism" Message-ID: anti-Semitism ()ED 1882) 1880 _Jewish Messenger_ 16 Jan. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Gustav Meyer of Dresden has again been elected one of the city council, of which Dr. Emil Lehman is also a member. This is despite anti-Semitism. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:40:44 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:40:44 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Anti-Semite" Message-ID: anti-Semite (OED 1881) 1879 _Jewish Messenger_ 5 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) In the _Ogden Junction_ [Ogden City, Utah], of November 26th, appeared a timely article on the "Anti-Semite League of Germany," from which we extract the following: ... What General Montecuculi wanted to fight the Turks with, court-preacher Sroecker in Berlin, the gang leader of the "Anti-Semite League," wants to fight the Jews with. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 05:51:08 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:51:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <201201160307.q0FB00pA014316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in Jüdisches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of Jüdisches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erzählungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 06:59:45 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:59:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <201201160551.q0G4UlXW031500@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a 1902 citation for "Beigel" with a footnote in an article about "Jewish London", but the word is not yet treated as an English word. Yet this cite might be interesting because it helps to document the transition of the word into the English language. Cite: 1902, Living London edited by George R. Sims, Volume 2, Jewish London by S. Gelberg, Page 30, Column 2, Cassell and Company, Limited, London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=-NY-AAAAYAAJ&q=beigel#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] >From break of day till the going-down of the sun rings the song of the coster through its grimy streets. "Weiber, Weiber! Heimische Beigel!* sing out the women, with handkerchief drawn tightly over head. * "Ladies, ladies! rolls for sale just like those in our native land." [End excerpt] Garson On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is > slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). > Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better > still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before > it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more > Yiddishisms as well. > > http://goo.gl/spOG9 > Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 > The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff >> TASHRAK >> Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government >> of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first >> Yiddish sketch published in Jüdisches Tageblatt, 1893; first English >> story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of Jüdisches >> Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in >> Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, >> and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene >> Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erzählungen, 4 >> vols., New York, 1910. >> >> THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL >> When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a >> learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions >> and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a >> Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" >> This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my >> head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, >> took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece >> with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten >> up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to >> annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at >> prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was >> wrong with me. > > This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more > pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. > > http://goo.gl/d0LUb > Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 > Cookery. p. 257/1 >> The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another >> form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) >> into hot water and adding butter. > > The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> bagel (OED 1919) >> >> 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. >> >> Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 08:10:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:10:59 -0500 Subject: bugle Message-ID: There are three separate nouns under "bugle" in the OED. Bugle n.1 > Etymology: < Old French /bugle/ < Latin /būculus/ , diminutive of > /bo-s bov-is/ an ox. This one includes buffalo, hunting (buffalo) horn, bugle-horn (as just "bugle") because it was originally made from buffalo horn, and a bunch of derivatives and combinations Bugle n.2 > Etymology: < French /bugle/ = Italian /bugola/ , Spanish /bugula/ < > late Latin /bugula/ . The Latin /bugillo/ , used by Marcellus > Empiricus /c/400, seems to denote the same plant. This one is pretty one-dimensional > The English name of the plants belonging to the genus /Ajuga/, esp. > the common species /A. reptans/. (The names /buglossa/ and /bugle/ > were occasionally confounded by early writers.) This particular "bugle" will not be relevant to the rest of the comment. Bugle n.3 > Etymology:Etymology unknown. Of the medieval Latin /bugulus/ , > sometimes quoted as the etymon, a single instance, as the name of a > ‘pad’, or framework for the hair, used by Italian ladies, occurs in a > chapter /De moribus civium Placentiæ/ 1388, in Muratori /Script. > Italian/ XVI. 580; no similar word is known in Italian or French. > /Bugle/ has a certain resemblance in form to Dutch /beugel/ a ring ( < > Middle Dutch /böghil/ , /bōghel/ , Franck); but no connection of > meaning appears. The proposed etymology does not give much sense of what the item is. Collins and AHD give simply "origin unknown". > A tube-shaped glass bead, usually black, used to ornament wearing > apparel. (Formerly also collective, or as the name of material.) My first thought was the idea of a connection between bugle n.1 and bugle n.3--not so much for the buffalo horn as for the metal version. A bugle-horn is essentially a twisted (curved) tube. But the fact that it originated from a buffalo horn seems inescapable. And the forms of the two are quite distinct until they converge toward modern spelling. And bugle beads are pretty much straight rods, not cones or funnels, as would have been implied from a connection to bugle n.1. There are several 19th century dictionaries in GB that mention the Germanic (Swedish, Norwegian, German, Icelandic) use of "bagel", "bugel", "bogel" or something similar. But the one that comes closest is this one. http://goo.gl/dZGv7 An Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language. Volume 1. By John Jamison. Revised Edition. Paisley: 1879 (University Microfilm reproduction, 1964) p. 178/2 > BEUGLE-BACKED, /adj./ Crook-backed > --/Beugle-back'd/, bodied like a beetle. > Watson's Coll. ii. 54 > A.-S. /bug-an/, to bow; Teut. /boechel/, gibbus. Germ. /bugel/, a > dimin. from /bug/, denoting any thing curved or circular. It is > undoubtedly the same word that is now pronounced /boolie-backit/, S. It's the "bodied like a beetle" quote that grabbed my attention. That seems potentially to be a good fit for bugle n.3. Is it plausible that there is a connection here? Or am I just going for the superficial similarity? ("beugle" is one of the spelling forms of bugle n.3 /and/ the Dutch form "beugle" for "ring" is mentioned in the OED note) The other question is whether the "curved" meaning of "beugle" might have been derived from bugle n.1, drawing the link in the opposite direction. One additional note. There should be a 2.c definition added to bugle n.1--one for objects that are conical or funnel-shaped, in some superficial similarity to a bugle-horn, such as the Bugles snacks. I don't think it's particularly widespread, but it's certainly in use and it earned a mention in Wiktionary (no one else seems to have it, though). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 08:18:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:18:35 -0500 Subject: bugle In-Reply-To: <4F13DB93.3050209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Webster's 1913 (on-line) adds a couple more twists. The definition corresponding to bugle n.3 is interesting, but ultimately similar to the OED: > Bugle, n. [LL. bugulus a woman's ornament: cf. G. bügel a bent piece > of metal or wood, fr. the same root as G. biegen to bend, E. bow to > bend.] An elingated glass bead, of various colors, though commonly black. It also throws in an adjective, with an unimpeachable citation. > Bugle, a. [From Bugle a bead.] Jet black. /Bugle/ eyeballs." /Shak./ VS-) On 1/16/2012 3:10 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > There are three separate nouns under "bugle" in the OED. > > Bugle n.1 >> Etymology: < Old French /bugle/ < Latin /būculus/ , diminutive of >> /bo-s bov-is/ an ox. > This one includes buffalo, hunting (buffalo) horn, bugle-horn (as just > "bugle") because it was originally made from buffalo horn, and a bunch > of derivatives and combinations > > Bugle n.2 >> Etymology: < French /bugle/ = Italian /bugola/ , Spanish /bugula/ < >> late Latin /bugula/ . The Latin /bugillo/ , used by Marcellus >> Empiricus /c/400, seems to denote the same plant. > > This one is pretty one-dimensional > >> The English name of the plants belonging to the genus /Ajuga/, esp. >> the common species /A. reptans/. (The names /buglossa/ and /bugle/ >> were occasionally confounded by early writers.) > > This particular "bugle" will not be relevant to the rest of the comment. > > Bugle n.3 >> Etymology:Etymology unknown. Of the medieval Latin /bugulus/ , >> sometimes quoted as the etymon, a single instance, as the name of a >> ‘pad’, or framework for the hair, used by Italian ladies, occurs in a >> chapter /De moribus civium Placentiæ/ 1388, in Muratori /Script. >> Italian/ XVI. 580; no similar word is known in Italian or French. >> /Bugle/ has a certain resemblance in form to Dutch /beugel/ a ring ( >> < Middle Dutch /böghil/ , /bōghel/ , Franck); but no connection of >> meaning appears. > > The proposed etymology does not give much sense of what the item is. > Collins and AHD give simply "origin unknown". > >> A tube-shaped glass bead, usually black, used to ornament wearing >> apparel. (Formerly also collective, or as the name of material.) > > My first thought was the idea of a connection between bugle n.1 and > bugle n.3--not so much for the buffalo horn as for the metal version. > A bugle-horn is essentially a twisted (curved) tube. But the fact that > it originated from a buffalo horn seems inescapable. And the forms of > the two are quite distinct until they converge toward modern spelling. > And bugle beads are pretty much straight rods, not cones or funnels, > as would have been implied from a connection to bugle n.1. > > There are several 19th century dictionaries in GB that mention the > Germanic (Swedish, Norwegian, German, Icelandic) use of "bagel", > "bugel", "bogel" or something similar. But the one that comes closest > is this one. > > http://goo.gl/dZGv7 > An Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language. Volume 1. By John > Jamison. Revised Edition. Paisley: 1879 (University Microfilm > reproduction, 1964) > p. 178/2 >> BEUGLE-BACKED, /adj./ Crook-backed >> --/Beugle-back'd/, bodied like a beetle. >> Watson's Coll. ii. 54 >> A.-S. /bug-an/, to bow; Teut. /boechel/, gibbus. Germ. /bugel/, a >> dimin. from /bug/, denoting any thing curved or circular. It is >> undoubtedly the same word that is now pronounced /boolie-backit/, S. > > It's the "bodied like a beetle" quote that grabbed my attention. That > seems potentially to be a good fit for bugle n.3. Is it plausible that > there is a connection here? Or am I just going for the superficial > similarity? ("beugle" is one of the spelling forms of bugle n.3 /and/ > the Dutch form "beugle" for "ring" is mentioned in the OED note) The > other question is whether the "curved" meaning of "beugle" might have > been derived from bugle n.1, drawing the link in the opposite direction. > > One additional note. There should be a 2.c definition added to bugle > n.1--one for objects that are conical or funnel-shaped, in some > superficial similarity to a bugle-horn, such as the Bugles snacks. I > don't think it's particularly widespread, but it's certainly in use > and it earned a mention in Wiktionary (no one else seems to have it, > though). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 16 08:51:03 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:51:03 -0800 Subject: Gemba/genba Message-ID: I do not see this in the OHD or AHD. Wikipedia has an entry under "gemba" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba). From Japanese 現場 (present location), the word is used in lean manufacturing to refer to a location where work is being done. The expression "genba principle" is often used, referring to the idea that sitting in an ivory tower and creating rules for workers does not work, so you have to go to where they are working to figure out how to improve things. It seems to appear in 1993 in "New Shop Floor Management" by Kiyoshi Suzaki (http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/new-shop-floor-management/id381481786?mt=11). Around 1997 is when the word becomes more visible on the Internet. That is the year when Masaaki Imai's book "Gemba Kaizen: A Commonsense, Low-Cost Approach to Management " came out (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Gemba-Kaizen/Masaaki-Imai/e/9780070314467). The expression "gemba workshop" is also often heard. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:08:45 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:08:45 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:19:20 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:19:20 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E0A8D@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: That surely is a major antedating Fred. The same article slightly earlier than this Dec. 1851: Oct. 18 1851 in Athenaeum and in The Literary Examiner {London]. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:22:14 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:22:14 +0000 Subject: Another Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1873 _Trewman's Exeter Flying Post_ 8 Jan. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) Passing over that piteous slip which must have been borrowed at a low rate of interest from his friend the anti-Semitic lecturer. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 14:33:57 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:57 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140446.q0E4UBfv020858@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The NYTimes has "venture-capitalist" in a letter published Nov. 29, 1941. GB has numerous cites for "venture capital" before 1940. DanG On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of > the > new year? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to George, Victor, and other participants on this thread for > comments. I think the 1971 date for "venture capitalist" can be pushed > back. Here is a citation in 1946 and one in 1953. > > Cite: 1946 July 27, Collier's Weekly, The Truth About Henry Kaiser by > Lester Velie, Start Page 11, Quote Page 12, Column 3, The > Crowell-Collier Publishing Company. (Unz) > [Begin excerpt] > To friendly officials in Washington, Mr. Kaiser is a great natural > resource during peace as he was during war - the sort of venture > capitalist our economy needs to make it grow. To critics, he is the > pampered darling of the New Deal, the greatest individual beneficiary > of government largesse in history. > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1953 June 27, The Saturday Review, Human Want Is Obsolete by > Gerard Piel, Start Page 9, Quote Page 10, Column 2, Saturday Review > Associates Inc., New York. (Unz) > [Begin excerpt] > What science needs is brave money-with no strings attached. We are not > being brave enough when we find it necessary to invoke the prospect of > practical results in order to justify support of basic science. But if > results are all that is wanted, it takes a reckless venture capitalist > to back basic research. > [End excerpt] > > The 1959 Time magazine cite given earlier quotes Sukarno using the > phrase "vulture capitalists". This was after "venture capitalist" > entered circulation. However, the magazine article does not indicate > whether Sukarno was speaking English when he used the term. If he was > not speaking English then the wordplay of "venture" and "vulture" may > not be relevant. Knowledge of the untranslated words might be > helpful. > > The 1972 Boston Globe cite may still be the earliest one that > explicitly connects "vulture capitalist" and "venture capitalist". > > Garson > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor Steinbok > > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start > of the > > new year? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling > > ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese > > expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus > > Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears > > to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] > > > > VS-) > > > > On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the > earlier > >> examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. > >> > >> GAT > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture > >>> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The > >>> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but > >>> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. > >>> > >>> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce > >>> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. > >>> (ProQuest) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some > >>> quarters as vulture capitalists. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. > >>> > >>> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, > >>> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture > >>> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one > >>> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas > >>> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive > >>> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) > >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred > >>> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all > >>> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an > >>> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New > >>> York. (ProQuest) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you > >>> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the > >>> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that > >>> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be > >>> kept out of the country > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., > >>> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of > >>> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the > >>> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be > >>> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if > >>> necessary will be sentenced to death." > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some > >>> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two > >>> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in > >>> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living > >>> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; > >>> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese > >>> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, > >>> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association > >>> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) > >>> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, > >>> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight > >>> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently > >>> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced > >>> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong > >>> Rojong. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. > >>> Best Garson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 16:30:06 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:30:06 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <4F13BACC.6020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: Terrific discoveries, Victor! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in Jüdisches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of Jüdisches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erzählungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Jan 16 17:25:23 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:25:23 +0000 Subject: no more strict deadlines Message-ID:

Hey, hey.
I was told that id never be able to bounce back from my debt this couldnt have come at a better time I refused to keep living that way!
http://rowerychrzanow.pl/breakingnews/71JohnYoung/ I love not having responsibilities anymore
this will be worth your time!

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 00:17:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:17:13 -0500 Subject: campaignerati Message-ID: http://goo.gl/9CmAI > The campaignerati like to say that states are the only things that > matters, so you should ignore national polling. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 01:10:32 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:10:32 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Coeducation" Message-ID: coeducation (OED 1852) 1850 _Home Journal_ 20 July (American Periodical Series Online) (heading) Co-education of boys and girls. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 01:49:14 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:49:14 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Isolationism" Message-ID: isolationism (OED 1922) 1919 _Manchester Guardian_ 21 Mar. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Broadly, one may say that the opposition in the Senate is composed temperamentally of these two groups, which may for convenience be called Hamiltonian and Isolationism. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Tue Jan 17 03:00:16 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:00:16 -0800 Subject: from my inbox Message-ID: (sent to be by a 72-year-old Realtor) I have been in many places, but I've never been in Cahoots. Apparently, you can't go alone. You have to be in Cahoots with someone. I've also never been in Cognito. I hear no one recognizes you there. I have, however, been in Sane. They don't have an airport; you have to be driven there. I have made several trips there, thanks to my friends, my husband, and my kids. I would like to go to Conclusions, but you have to jump, and I'm not too much on physical activity anymore. I have also been in Doubt. That is a sad place to go, and I try not to visit there too often. I've been in Flexible, but only when it was very important to stand firm. Sometimes I'm in Capable, and I go there more often as I'm getting older. One of my favorite places to be is in Suspense! It really gets the adrenalin flowing and pumps up the old heart! At my age I need all the stimuli I can get! I may have been in Continent, and I don't remember what country I was in. It's an age thing. PLEASE DO YOUR PART! Today is one of the many National Mental Health Days throughout the year. You can do your bit by remembering to send an e-mail to at least one unstable person. My job is done! _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:11:32 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:11:32 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Populist" Message-ID: populist (OED 1891 Dec. as adjective, 1892 as noun) 1891 _Macon Telegraph_ 31 May 4 (America's Historical Newspapers) Southern Alliancemen now know what is expected of them, and must each determine for himself whether he is a Democrat or a ":Populist" -- the name authoritatively announced as the designation of a member of the new party. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:38:24 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:38:24 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Immunology" Message-ID: immunology (OED 1909) 1906 _Journal of Infectious Diseases_ 30 June 683 (JSTOR) To penetrate more deeply into such mechanism and to apply newer developments in immunology, the result primarily of the researches of Wright and Douglas, is the object of this investigation. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:26:36 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:26:36 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Fundamentalism" Message-ID: fundamentalism (OED 1923) 1912 _Fort Worth Star-Telegram_ 16 Feb. (America's Historical Newspapers) It is evident to every thing [sic] individual that the need of the age is not sensationalism, but fundamentalism. There never was a time when the fundamentals of God's eternal word were needed more to be heralded from every pulpit as at this very moment. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:20:26 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:20:26 +0000 Subject: Slight Antedating of "Populism" Message-ID: populism (OED 1892 Oct. 22) 1892 _Dallas Morning News_ 7 Oct. (America's Historical Newspapers) But there are phases of political populism treading upon parental authority in education, as seen in Wisconsin and Illinois, which give a different turn to conservative democratic and Catholic endeavor in harmony. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jan 17 05:27:48 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:27:48 -0800 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: Wow, this is quite striking, Fred. The generally accepted story has it that "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 as Ger. Antisemitismus, by way of providing a genteel replacement for Judenhass, and that the early English occurrences were merely translations of that. If that was the case, then the OED's 1881 citation would be in line. This one might call for a radical revision of that assumption. I say "might" because it isn't clear to me, looking at the passage, exactly what Carlyle is referring to with the phrase. (It almost never is, with Carlyle.) Could this be merely a typically vivid Carlylean reference to some theological controversy (which in context would make sense) or to a philological one (there were plenty, involving Biblical translations.) And if not is there any reason to suppose that 'Semitic' here is restricted to Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr http://amzn.to/x5EjGC Geoff > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > anti-Semitic (OED 1881) > > 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 10:37:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:37:34 -0500 Subject: Jewish Problem Message-ID: The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. > 1. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of, the Jews; Israelitish, Hebrew. > ... > 1941 Time 24 Feb. 102/3 Alfred Rosenberg last fortnight opened in > Frankfurt am Main what Nazis call 'the biggest library in the world > dealing exclusively with the Jewish problem'. > 1957 Oxf. Dict. Christian Church 1093/2 The Jewish problem arose at a > later date than in Spain, and it was not until 1536 that, under the > influence of the civil power, the Inquisition was set up. I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly snowballed after. In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually interesting. > 3. c. With qualifying noun or adjective: a seemingly insoluble > quandary affecting a specified group of people or a nation; (also) a > long-standing personal difficulty./ > drink/, /drinking problem/: see the first element. > 1851 J. Bigelow /Jamaica in 1850/ 122 Such is the solution of the West > Indian problem, advocated by one of the most distinguished writers and > thinkers in England: a restoration of slavery. > 1879 /Nation/ 2 Jan. 7/2 The theory of certain amiable persons, that > the real solution of the Indian problem is extermination, ought not > for a moment to be entertained. > 1897 E. Ferri /Criminal Sociol./ p. viii, The proper method of > arriving at a more or less satisfactory solution of the criminal > problem is to inquire into the causes which are producing the criminal > population. > 1936 H. G. Wells /Anat. Frustration/ xv. 178 That does not close the > Jewish problem for you. > 1969 'J. Morris' /Fever Grass/ iv. 44 She had the body of a ballet > dancer with a weight problem. > 1974 E. Ambler /Doctor Frigo/ i. 41 If Villegas had a health problem > which could be helped by a change of climate, [etc.]. > 1980 /Dun's Rev./ July 93 If Giscard was indeed delivering a Gaullist > ‘Non’ to new members until the British problem is straightened out, > then a whole new saga of EEC dissension has been signaled. > 2004 /Time Out/ 31 Mar. 180/3 /N.A. (Narcotics Anonymous)/ If you have > any kind of drug problem then may be we can help. The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the "drug problem" or the "weight problem". In fact, the only quotes of this kind that may be regarded as parallel are 1879, 1897 and 1936, and perhaps 1980--and I am not sure about the 1879 quote. The rest have a different structure and a different meaning (more accurately reflected in the lemma). In fact, I am not even sure that the two definitions given in the lemma are compatible with each other either. Note, in particular, that "Jewish problem" (and the listed "problems" that correspond to the first part of the definition--West Indian problem, Indian problem, criminal problem, British problem) always appears with the definite article, while "weight problem", "health problem" and "drug problem" usually have the indefinite article. (However, I can foresee some examples where "criminal problem" and "British problem" would be appearing with an indefinite article and, hence, with different meaning of "problem". E.g., "Necessity of early orthodontic intervention is a typically British problem."; "But the News of the World is not just a British problem. It is an American problem, too."; "Although bright and well cared for, he developed a criminal problem."; "Criminal Law also exists because it is my experience that when you have a criminal problem, you need a criminal lawyer." Note the pragmatic shift.) "Jewish question" also shows up in a number of quotations, including one included with etymology (of Manhattanite): > 1879 /Brooklyn Daily Eagle/ 22 July 2/2 At Coney Island ... there are > other hotels--one of them, the Brighton, being in direct rivalry with > the Manhattan. It will be interesting to know if the Brighton people > believe they will profit by the action of the Manhattanites on the > Jewish question. The rest show up under accomplishment 1.a., cleansing (DA 10/2001), final solution (final 3.b.), propination, intractable A. 2. and poisonous 2.a. (same quote). > 1992 R. Harris /Fatherland/ iv. 253 The organisational, technical and > material measures necessary for the accomplishment of the final > solution of the Jewish question. > 1946 tr. A. Rosenberg in /Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression/ (U.S. Chief > Counsel Prosecution of Axis Criminality) V. 557 The Jewish question > ... must be solved and ... all nations of Europe will march behind > this cleansing at the end. > 1947 /Trial German Major War Criminals/ (H.M.S.O.) xi. p. ix, Final > solution of the Jewish question. > 1995 J. Moskalewicz & A. Zieliński in D. B. Heath /Internat. Handbk. > Alcohol & Culture/ xxi. 225 Propination is strongly associated with > 'the Jewish question' in Poland. Because of legal and customary > restrictions, one of the few careers open to Jews was to lease an inn > from a local landlord. > 1899 A. White /Mod. Jew/ ii. 37 When Russia became the chief > accomplice in the murder of Polish liberty ..., the poisonous Jewish > Question infected her life-blood. She acquired the disease in a > peculiarly intractable form. It seems the two should be listed either together or separately as phrases associated with "Jewish". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 10:40:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:40:29 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA Message-ID: Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. http://goo.gl/zWw61 VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Jan 17 11:13:19 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:13:19 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" In-Reply-To: <4CDC665A-0C58-44CF-B0CC-B1288BC006C3@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Above on the same page (available at Hathi Trust*) a correspondent to Carlyle quotes Carlyle's earlier-published phrase "Hebrew old clothes," a phrase that may help clarify Carlyle's usage. In an 1852 review** of Carlyle's 1851 text, both phrases are quoted and parenthetically glossed by the (theologically-involved Free Church Magazine) reviewer: ...'Hebrew Old-clothes' (by which elegant phrase of Mr. Carlyle's, his correspondent means the Scriptures).... ....or miserable Semitic , Anti-semitic street riots (the writer means such 'miserable' disputes as, whether the Bible be worthy of our faith, or but an old wives' fable).... * http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082376181;view=image;q1=semitic;start=1;size=100;page=root;seq=16;num=6 ** http://books.google.com/books?id=DhEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=anti-semitic!%22hebrew+old-clothes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KFMVT7mbOYW4twfFrKCJAg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=anti-semitic!%22hebrew%20old-clothes%22&f=false Carlyle could reasonably be called anti-Semitic. Maybe this discussion could help with the collocation previously discussed on this list, Browning's "Semitic guess." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Geoffrey Nunberg [nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Wow, this is quite striking, Fred. The generally accepted story has it that "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 as Ger. Antisemitismus, by way of providing a genteel replacement for Judenhass, and that the early English occurrences were merely translations of that. If that was the case, then the OED's 1881 citation would be in line. This one might call for a radical revision of that assumption. I say "might" because it isn't clear to me, looking at the passage, exactly what Carlyle is referring to with the phrase. (It almost never is, with Carlyle.) Could this be merely a typically vivid Carlylean reference to some theological controversy (which in context would make sense) or to a philological one (there were plenty, involving Biblical translations.) And if not is there any reason to suppose that 'Semitic' here is restricted to Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr http://amzn.to/x5EjGC Geoff > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > anti-Semitic (OED 1881) > > 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 12:02:24 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:02:24 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171040.q0H4qP8g004592@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You can't protest Signs of the Apocalypse. I mean, you can, but why bother? JL On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Wiki and SOTA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > > http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Jan 17 12:53:28 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:53:28 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite Message-ID: On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 13:28:24 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:28:24 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E87439502885E07@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern "anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), with anthropological elements as well, and that modern "anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I imagine that it sheds light on the question. One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the kind that the OED has traditionally put in square brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of "anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall into this category. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: 1867 anti-Semite On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 17 14:28:08 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:28:08 -0800 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171040.q0H4r2Oj013316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. that's SOPA, of course. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 17 15:02:59 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:02:59 -0800 Subject: Jewish Problem In-Reply-To: <201201171037.q0H4qP8c004592@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:37 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the > OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" > and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. > > ... I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this > particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry > on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the > Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" > /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be > extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can > describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is > if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for > example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a > snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, > racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive > such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar > phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly > snowballed after. > > In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually > interesting. > > ... The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the > "drug problem" or the "weight problem". similarly, "black problem" (or "(American) Negro problem"), notably in quotes saying that America doesn't have a black problem, it has a white problem -- i associate this with Richard Wright (and a version of it appears in the 1968 Kerner Commission report). related examples: Slavery was but one aspect of a race and color problem that is still far from solution here, or anywhere. (Samuel Eliot Morison, The Oxford History of the American People (1965), ch. 33) At the root of the American Negro problem is the necessity of the American white man to find a way of living with the Negro in order to be able to live with himself. (James Baldwin, "Stranger in a Village", Harper's, Oct. 1953) (some with the indefinite article, some with the definite). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 17 15:16:35 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:35 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E2BF0@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 - 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: <> I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:28 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern "anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), with anthropological elements as well, and that modern "anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I imagine that it sheds light on the question. One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the kind that the OED has traditionally put in square brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of "anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall into this category. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: 1867 anti-Semite On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 17:00:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:00:13 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171428.q0H4r2eT013316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: D'oh! On 1/17/2012 9:28 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for >> 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > that's SOPA, of course. > > arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 17:36:05 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:36:05 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable Message-ID: One of the most famous skeptical comments about sexuality is attributed to the Philip Dormer Stanhope, the 4th Earl of Chesterfield who reportedly advised his son that: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable. There is no known direct evidence that Lord Chesterfield made this remark. He was born in 1694 and died in 1773, but the earliest known attribution to him appeared in a novel by the notable author W. Somerset Maugham many years later in 1939. The Yale Book of Quotations contains this important citation. Since the discussion of erotic life has historically been restricted by taboos I have gathered indirect as well as direct evidence for this type of remark. Here are selected citations in chronological order. The theme of the transience of sensual and other forms of gratification was contained in a letter sent to the 2nd Earl of Chesterfield in 1658 by the sister of his wife. The 2nd Earl apparently had been carousing on the continent, and the letter accused him of "exceeding wildness" [C2LE]: [C2LE] 1829, "Letters of Philip, Second Earl of Chesterfield, to Several Celebrated Individuals", [Letter from Lady Essex, Sister of Chesterfield's first wife, dated 1658], Start Page 97, Quote Page 97-98, E. Lloyd and Son, London. [The word "freinds" appears in the original text instead of "friends".] (Google Books full view) [Begin excerpt] … you treate all the mad drinking lords, you sweare, you game, and commit all the extravagances that are insident to untamed youths … I heare there is a hansom young lady (to both your shames) with child by you. My Lord, these courses must needs undoe your person, fortune, and reputation; … you will loose your most considerable freinds, and at last make your life miserable, and, which is the saddest of all, ruin your own soule; for be confident that those momentary pleasures will have an end, and a sad one to, If you doe not speedily consider your condition, and hartily repent of it. [End excerpt] Although the behavior described is two generations removed from the 4th Earl it may still have influenced his attitudes. A pregnancy outside of marriage for a member of the nobility could be problematic. If the saying is misattributed to Chesterfield then it is possible that this background information made the misattribution more plausible to some. In 1910 Hilaire Belloc wrote a letter that discussed his unhappiness as a member of Member of Parliament in the United Kingdom. The phrases Belloc used in his description overlapped with the phrases in the joke. This similarity might be a coincidence. Alternatively, Belloc may have been playfully alluding to the quip to heighten the humor of his commentary. Cite: 1958, Letters from Hilaire Belloc, Selected and edited by Robert Speaight, [Letter from Hilaire Belloc to J. S. Phillimore dated June 12, 1910], Page 27, Hollis & Carter, London. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] Every day that passes makes me more determined to chuck Westminster; it is too low for words. The position is ridiculous and the expense is damnable. [End excerpt] In 1922 a column in Theatre Magazine printed the remarks of a "chorus girl". Her words overlapped those of the joke. This parallelism might also be coincidental. Alternatively, the overlap might have been a deliberate attempt to entertain the subset of readers who were already familiar with the comical portrayal of sex in the quotation under investigation. Indeed, the humor in the following passage seems rather weak without the tacit background knowledge that supplies context for the comments of the "chorus girl". Cite: 1922 July, Theatre Magazine, Heard on Broadway, Page 24, Column 1, Theatre Magazine Company, New York. (Internet Archive at archive.org full view) http://www.archive.org/details/magazinetheatre36newyuoft http://www.archive.org/stream/magazinetheatre36newyuoft#page/24/mode/2up [Begin excerpt] Even a show girl appears to have illusions which can be shattered. A former New York chorus girl, recently married to a foreigner with a title, was questioned by one of her friends as to how she liked being a duchess, or whatever it was. "Well," she confessed with a sigh, "I'm not crazy about it. The pleasure is only momentary, and the position is ridiculous." [End excerpt] In 1928 George Bernard Shaw sent a letter to St. John Ervine who had written a review of Shaw's work "Back to Methuselah" in The Observer. Shaw unmistakably invokes the joke, but he does not attribute it to Chesterfield. He credits "the Aberdonian", i.e., an individual from Aberdeen in Scotland. Cite: 1988, Bernard Shaw: Collected Letters: 1926-1950, Edited by Dan H. Laurence, [Letter from George Bernard Shaw to St. John Ervine dated March 12, 1928], Start Page 95, Quote Page 96-97, Viking, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] My suggestion is that the passion of the body will finally become a passion of the mind. Already there is a pleasure in thought - creative thought - that is entirely detached from ridiculous and disgusting acts and postures. ...The Aberdonian cannot say of the achievements of Einstein that "the position is ridiculous, the pleasure but momentary, and the expense damnable." [End excerpt] The recipient of the Shaw's letter, St. John Ervine, published a biography of the man in 1956, and included the part of letter containing the joke. But the mention of "the Aberdonian" confused Ervine, and he added a footnote in which he stated his opinion that Chesterfield was responsible for the jest. Note that the letter was sent in 1928, but the footnote was published in 1956. So it is not clear when Ervine decided that Chesterfield should be credited. Only the upper limit of 1956 is certain. Cite: 1956, Bernard Shaw: His Life, Work and Friends by St. John Ervine, [Excerpt of letter from George Bernard Shaw to St. John Ervine with unspecified date], Quote Page 384, William Morrow & Company, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] Footnote 1: I do not know what he means by 'the Aberdonian'. It was Lord Chesterfield who made the remark. [End excerpt] Here is a not yet verified cite that was probably published in 1938. Cite: Circa January-May 1938, T'ien Hsia Monthly, Volume 6, [Probably a book review of works by D. H. Lawrence], GB Page 163, [Published under the auspices of the Sun Yat-sen Institute for Advancement of Culture and Education, Nanking, China], Kelly and Walsh, Ltd., Shanghai, China. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on paper yet) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015004672443 [Begin excerpt] Had he forgotten his sacred mission for only a small moment, now and then; had he admitted for example, that fornication, as they say among the Philistines, is grossly overrated because the position is ridiculous, the sensation momentary and the expense frightful - why, had Lawrence thus let down his hair he might have lost a few of those champions of his. [End excerpt] Here is the 1939 YBQ cite that attributes a version of the remark to Chesterfield. Cite: 1939, Christmas Holiday by W. Somerset Maugham, Page 50, Doubleday, Doran & Company, Inc., New York. (HathiTrust full view) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4089212 http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4089212?urlappend=%3Bseq=62 [Begin excerpt] Chesterfield said the last word about sexual congress: the pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous, and the expense is damnable. [End excerpt] Here is a not yet verified cite that was probably published in 1941. Cite: Circa 1941, The Hermit Place: A Novel by Mark Schorer, GB Page 235, Random House, New York. (Google Books and HathiTrust match; Text not visible in snippet; Not verified on paper; Data may be incorrect) [Begin excerpt] "Everyone has had one of those old professors who get a perennial laugh by saying of another common human pursuit, 'Gentlemen, the posture is ridiculous.' [End excerpt] Here is a variant of the adage that appeared in a 1945 novel and was credited to a Dean at Harvard. Cite: 1945, I'll Hate Myself in the Morning and Summer in December by Elliot Paul, [Two works are combined. The quote is contained in "I'll Hate Myself in the Morning"], Page 69, Random House, New York. (HathiTrust full view) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b244079 http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b244079?urlappend=%3Bseq=77 [Begin excerpt] As dear old Dean Hathaway of Harvard said: 'The pleasure is but momentary, the risk of infection considerable . . . but, worse than that, young gentlemen, the posture is ridiculous.' [End excerpt] In a medical journal in 1946 a version was credited to a "Scotsman". Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is damnable." [End excerpt] Additional relevant cites would be welcome. If someone has old editions of the "Quote … Unquote" newsletter containing evidence about this saying I would be interested in reading it. A query about the saying at the "Quote … Unquote" website says that a 1910 citation exists. I do not know the nature of this citation unless it is the one given above. There is another confusing citation that is connected to the date 1901. But I think this might be a misdating of an instance from the 1960s. Here is a link and excerpt about this cite. This information is from a PRWEB release dated November 9, 2011: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/11/prweb8939432.htm [Begin excerpt] “The pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous, and the expense is damnable.” The earliest citation so far is in - of all places - a report on the Labour Party Annual Conference at Blackpool in 1901: a speaker referred to someone’s "description of the act of human love-making in which he said that the satisfaction was fleeting, the position ridiculous and the expense damnable". The query was initially published in the first edition of the newsletter in 1992. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 17 19:00:42 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:00:42 -0500 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > ><author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior >communities of Ham and Japhet. The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with "Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) "believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably clarify "anti-Semitic". >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the >Arabs and Jews.>> The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means "anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his views were. Joel >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:28 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite > >Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe >he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern >"anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. >Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), >with anthropological elements as well, and that modern >"anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier >theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently >used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be >distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I >imagine that it sheds light on the question. > >One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy >use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far >more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with >questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the >kind that the OED has traditionally put in square >brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of >"anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall >into this category. > >Fred Shapiro > > > >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of >Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: 1867 anti-Semite > >On the Great Race-Elements in >Christianity >[Free content] [quick view] > >Dunbar I. >Heath >Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), >pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: >....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly >anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, >Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have >the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology >of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. > >http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 17 19:04:37 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:04:37 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <4F15501D.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 05:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for >24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. In protest, I for one am going to stop contributing to Wiki. Up with intellectual property rights! Joel Berson, Intellectual. >http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Jan 17 20:37:01 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:37:01 -0600 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <8CEA367925B07EF-868-424D@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? (See query below.) Gerald Cohen From: Barry Popik Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. Barry Popik Austin, TX ... GenealogyBank June 14, 1915 Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) _Located._ Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 17 21:15:31 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:15:31 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <201201171900.q0HJ0iDV002636@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: The discussion in the quoted passage is really more about the original author, Daniel Ramee, than about the reviewer, E.L.G., who considers Ramee's theory outrageous. Note that Ramee is a strong proponent of the Egyptians, who were then considered a Hamitic people, so this presumably explains why he believes Ham to be a superior community. What is not clear to me is whether "anti-Semitic," as E.L.G. uses it, is simply a transparent collocation (where "Semitic" refers, at a minimum, to Jews and Arabs, and probably to other Semitic peoples too), or instead is a calque of some French phrase in Ramee's original. Ramee's book is available via Google Books, but my French is not good enough to evaluate his work. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:01 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > ><author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior >communities of Ham and Japhet. The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with "Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) "believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably clarify "anti-Semitic". >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the >Arabs and Jews.>> The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means "anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his views were. Joel >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > >John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 23:37:48 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:37:48 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201172004.q0HHE0YK031755@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would guess it is a moustache style. Jazz musicians had their jazz patch, and this man had his jazbo. Eric On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? > (See query below.) > > Gerald Cohen > > From: Barry Popik > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) > Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. > > Barry Popik > Austin, TX > ... > GenealogyBank > June 14, 1915 > Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 > "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) > _Located._ > Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats > and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a > Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 18 01:37:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:37:27 -0500 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 04:15 PM, Baker, John wrote: >The discussion in the quoted passage is really more about the >original author, Daniel Ramee, than about the reviewer, E.L.G., who >considers Ramee's theory outrageous. Yes, I understood that. I wondered whether knowing who E.L.G. was would cast more light on his (E.L.G/'s) use of "anti-Semitic." Joel >Note that Ramee is a strong proponent of the Egyptians, who were >then considered a Hamitic people, so this presumably explains why he >believes Ham to be a superior community. > >What is not clear to me is whether "anti-Semitic," as E.L.G. uses >it, is simply a transparent collocation (where "Semitic" refers, at >a minimum, to Jews and Arabs, and probably to other Semitic peoples >too), or instead is a calque of some French phrase in Ramee's >original. Ramee's book is available via Google Books, but my French >is not good enough to evaluate his work. > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Joel S. Berson >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:01 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite > >At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: > >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 > >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of > >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although > >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the > >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > > > > >< >author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne > >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, > >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the > >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human > >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially > >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the > >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - > >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, > >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior > >communities of Ham and Japhet. > >The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but >increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with >"Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying >interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) >"believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred >to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems >inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably >clarify "anti-Semitic". > > > >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of > >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" > >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to > >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any > >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration > >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural > >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely > >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of > >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are > >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > > > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, > >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page > >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and > >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the > >Arabs and Jews.>> > >The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means >"anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the >reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic >Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his >views were. > >Joel > > > > >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the > >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, > >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > > > > >John Baker > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 02:23:44 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:23:44 -0500 Subject: "shower of turkeys" Message-ID: >From the NYTimes of today, January 17: an article on the disasterous sinking of a cruise ship in the Mediterranean. “But I’d suspect that on a modern cruise liner like that he’d be using electronic charts,” Mr. Menzies said. To hit an uncharted rock “nowadays that’s unlikely, but it’s possible,” he said. “The other possibility is that they were just a shower of turkeys — incompetent — on the bridge.” But the captain is king on his ship, Mr. Menzies said. “The man on the bridge decides everything.” The Times identifies Mr. Menzies as the head of a British organization of Master Mariners. Turkeys certainly have an unfortunate image in popular speech. JGreen has a number of items beginning "shower of ...", but not "shower of turkeys" -- he does have "shower of tom tits", which at least are birds. He defines the general expression as an unimpressive group of people, occasionally an individual. The "shower" here might refer to a group, meaning all of the officers on the bridge, but, although Menzies uses a plural pronoun -- "they were just a shower of turkeys" -- what he is quoted in the next sentence as saying suggests he was thinking of just one man, the captain. For those of you who still don't believe you have read the newspaper unless your fingers are dark with the ink, the story began on p. 1, but the passage quoted was on p. 10, col. 2. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 02:45:09 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:45:09 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take this to mean a moustache the writer thought looked particularly stupid. Originally, "jasbo" was an ignorant, buffoonish person, or the sort of thing such a person would fancy. After jazz music became the pop music of its time -- the late 1910s -- it was taken to mean a bo (beau?) who liked jazz. Someone here, years ago, proposed deriving "jasbo" from the first name "Jasper", just the sort of name that dumb people would have. Made sense to me then, and still does. The big laughs for *jasbo*, hokum, and gravy, as we call broad humor, frequently come from the women patrons in the house where it is performed. New York Times, July 4, 1915, section X, p. 2, cols. 5-6 (Walter J. Kingsley, “How to Sell a One-Act Play”) The "classy" stuff is pretty to talk about, it furnished inspiration for the dramatic writer, but it is the hocum, the *jazbo*, what vaudeville styles "comedy acts," which please an audience. Missouri Breeze, September 17, 1915, p. 1, col. ? Quoted in Lawrence Gushee, *Pioneers of Jazz: The Story of the Creole Band*, N. Y., &c: Oxford U. Pr., 2005, p. 138 & p. 332, fn. 11 GAT On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I would guess it is a moustache style. Jazz musicians had their jazz patch, > and > this man had his jazbo. > > Eric > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Gerald Cohen > > Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? > > (See query below.) > > > > Gerald Cohen > > > > From: Barry Popik > > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > > > I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. > > > > Barry Popik > > Austin, TX > > ... > > GenealogyBank > > June 14, 1915 > > Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 > > "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) > > _Located._ > > Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats > > and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a > > Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 18 03:12:11 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:12:11 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Feminist" Message-ID: feminist (OED 1894 Oct. as adj., 1904 as n.) 1894 _Illustrated London News_ 8 Sept. 296 (Online archive) The midgets and mosquitoes and faddy feminists are all very well and proper objects for chaff. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 04:37:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:37:05 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201172337.q0HHE0xe031755@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > jazz patch ny connection between this and "soul patch"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 18 05:31:49 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:31:49 -0800 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: This is a nice find. Carlyle had some very unpleasant things to say about the Jews (though Fred Kaplan says in his biography that he was no more capable of avoiding being "contaminated by some crude stereotypes" than contemporaries like Dickens, Tennyson, and Browning). But this passage seems to show pretty conclusively that his "anti-Semitic" didn't mean what the term later would, so I don't think one can claim that this usage is a true antedate of the modern use of the term, particularly since it's purely compositional. Geoff > > From: Stephen Goranson > Date: January 17, 2012 3:13:19 AM PST > Subject: Re: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > > Above on the same page (available at Hathi Trust*) a correspondent to Carlyle quotes Carlyle's earlier-published phrase "Hebrew old clothes," a phrase that may help clarify Carlyle's usage. > In an 1852 review** of Carlyle's 1851 text, both phrases are quoted and parenthetically glossed by the (theologically-involved Free Church Magazine) reviewer: > > ...'Hebrew Old-clothes' (by which elegant phrase of Mr. Carlyle's, his correspondent means the Scriptures).... > ....or miserable Semitic , Anti-semitic street riots (the writer means such 'miserable' disputes as, whether the Bible be worthy of our faith, or but an old wives' fable).... > * > http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082376181;view=image;q1=semitic;start=1;size=100;page=root;seq=16;num=6 > > ** > http://books.google.com/books?id=DhEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=anti-semitic!%22hebrew+old-clothes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KFMVT7mbOYW4twfFrKCJAg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=anti-semitic!%22hebrew%20old-clothes%22&f=false > > Carlyle could reasonably be called anti-Semitic. > Maybe this discussion could help with the collocation previously discussed on this list, Browning's "Semitic guess." > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 18 05:56:08 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:56:08 -0800 Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED Message-ID: There are lots of lacunae in the OED, but this one is very striking: 'entitlement' is treated only as a run-in from 'entitle', and documented by only one citation, from 1835, with the sense "a means of entitling; a designation, name." The entry doesn't look like anybody has touched it since Murray's day -- the latest cites are from 1860 (though this is described as an online version dated 2011 and has a link to an earlier one). So there's no mention of either the political sense of the word, which I think became common following the New Deal, or of its use in ego psychology, which gave rise to the modern popularity of "sense of entitlement." This really cries out for an out-of-sequence revision, given that the word will be even more prominent in the coming months. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 07:05:55 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:05:55 +0800 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171904.q0HFFS5v005548@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Krauts are still up. "Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten? Sie fliehen vorbei wie naechtliche Schatten. Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein Jäger erschießen..." Nieder mit dem Urheberrecht und der Amtszeit! (Recently retired, so I can say anything now (;^o). On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Wiki and SOTA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/17/2012 05:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > >24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > > In protest, I for one am going to stop contributing to Wiki. Up with > intellectual property rights! > > Joel Berson, Intellectual. > > >http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 11:24:49 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:24:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201180437.q0I4Wdgi013045@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Same thing. Looks like "soul patch" may be earlier. I always thought it was merely body decoration, but this source suggests a practical side to it: a facial cushion for trumpeters. "The soul patch was popularized by jazzmusicians, beatniks and other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul patch, leading the style to also be called a “jazz dab” or “jazz spot.” The style was popular with trumpeters in particular as the hair provided a cushion between sensitive skin and the trumpet’s mouthpiece." http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-soul-patch.htm Eric On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen > wrote: > > jazz patch > > ny connection between this and "soul patch"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 18 11:49:40 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:49:40 +0000 Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED In-Reply-To: <7EC631FF-35CA-46BF-A5B9-7D988B4AD038@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I too have noticed the need for updating "entitlement" in OED. I also have written in the Yale Law Journal about "entitlement" in its contemporary political meaning having been popularized by my friend Charles Reich in his pathbreaking Yale Law Journal articles of the early 1960s. There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of the alphabet. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Geoffrey Nunberg [nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:56 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED There are lots of lacunae in the OED, but this one is very striking: 'entitlement' is treated only as a run-in from 'entitle', and documented by only one citation, from 1835, with the sense "a means of entitling; a designation, name." The entry doesn't look like anybody has touched it since Murray's day -- the latest cites are from 1860 (though this is described as an online version dated 2011 and has a link to an earlier one). So there's no mention of either the political sense of the word, which I think became common following the New Deal, or of its use in ego psychology, which gave rise to the modern popularity of "sense of entitlement." This really cries out for an out-of-sequence revision, given that the word will be even more prominent in the coming months. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 18 12:45:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:45:27 -0500 Subject: The OED revision In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E4869@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.ed u> Message-ID: At 1/18/2012 06:49 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the >alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to >the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of >the alphabet. I didn't know that. Through which section of the grandstand is the crest of the OED wave moving at the moment? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 14:15:18 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:15:18 -0500 Subject: semi-antedating of "baby" = endearment Message-ID: OED 1869 (with a lone outlier in 1684 that isn't in direct address) 1862 (Jan. 8) in Henry M. Naglee _The Love Life of Brig. Gen. Henry M. Naglee_ [N.p.: pvtly. ptd., 1867] 119 [to his wife]: My own sweetest baby in all the world. ... Well, Baby, you know how much such uncertainty would annoy me. Naglee addresses his wife as "Baby" many times in these letters. I doubt that anyone has investigated this, but 19th C. exx. (before the ragtime era) seem uniformly to express tenderness. Later exx. are freq. extremely casual or sexually charged. Undoubtedly late 19th C. libertines addressed their sporting women as "baby" in a similarly perfunctory way, but the printed record appears to be silent on this. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 14:39:29 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:39:29 -0500 Subject: copyright 1864 Message-ID: At some point we mentioned the phenomenon of a book published late in one year misleadingly bearing a copyright date of the following year. Here's an example of the complementary phenomenon: _Thrilling Stories of the Great Rebellion...Together with an Account of the Death of President Lincoln; Fate of the Assassins; Capture of Jefferson Davis, and End of the War_, by Lieutenant-Colonel Charles S. Greene. "Entered in Accordance with the Act of Congress, in the Year 1864...." (Phila.: John E. Potter) Perhaps there was an earlier 1864 printing, which was updated with events of 1865. GB also shows copies with an 1865 title-page date. Some may recall a TV series called _Early Edition_ , in which a housecat regularly delivered a copy of the next day's paper to the hero's residence. This allowed him to "foretell" the future and save lives. Something similar may have occurred in Greene's case, but if so, he was unable to prevent a national tragedy. Such is the difference between fiction and real life. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Jan 18 14:50:09 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:50:09 +0000 Subject: Semitic terms Message-ID: I haven't had time yet to study the newly-found quotes, but I did happen upon one new (to me) fact. First let me recommend Martin F.J. Baasten "A Note on the History of 'Semitic'" that clarifies the passage (in German) from a tribal term also to a later linguistic term. That's in Hamlet on a Hill... [T. Muraoka Festschrift], Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 118; Leuven: Peeters, 2003, 57-72. I just learned that in 1860 a form of the term anti-Semitic was used by the great bibliographer Moritz Steinschneider. Alex Bein wrote about it: http://books.google.com/books?id=cQOn0y8ENg4C&pg=PA593&lpg=PA593&dq=antisemitism+word+origin+%22Alex+Bein%22&source=bl&ots=-akNbxOti7&sig=M6LirUPJLSh4_Mt8LX6I_DeA-9g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sMQWT8zVBdGctweig_TzAg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Steinschneider was alleged (by Gershom Scholem; others may dispute it) as regarding his task to "provide the remnants of Judaism with a decent burial." Yet Steinschneider objected to Ernst Renan's writings on Judaism. One of Renan's quotations (paraphrased) is that Christianity is an Esseneism that survived. Then, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, such thoughts were debated, as *some* of the scrolls apparently are Essene compositions. (And, some of the scrolls, IMO, include the Hebrew source of the name Essene, a root recognized as such from at least 1532, in Germany, and by other scholars each following century.*) In the 1950s till today some scholars insist the scrolls have nothing to do with Essenes. A few say Essenes never existed. A. Dupont-Sommer coined (in French in the 1950s) the term Essenophobia. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson * some of the evidence given in "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts" http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 18 14:57:32 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:57:32 -0500 Subject: The OED revision In-Reply-To: <201201181245.q0ICjSGD028913@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 07:45:27AM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/18/2012 06:49 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the > >alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to > >the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of > >the alphabet. > > I didn't know that. Through which section of the grandstand is the > crest of the OED wave moving at the moment? The most recent published batch contained entries at the beginning of "A": http://oed.com/public/simpson1211 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Jan 18 15:14:41 2012 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:14:41 -0600 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paul johnson Al Jazzbo Collins was a goateed man but at the time, (mid 50's) I'd always that the Jazzbo, referred to his bow ties On 1/18/2012 5:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Same thing. Looks like "soul patch" may be earlier. I always thought it was > merely body decoration, but this source suggests a practical side to it: a > facial cushion for trumpeters. > > "The soul patch was popularized by > jazzmusicians, beatniks and > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and > 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul patch, leading > the style to also be called a “jazz dab” or “jazz spot.” The style was > popular with trumpeters in particular as the hair provided a cushion > between sensitive skin and the trumpet’s mouthpiece." > > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-soul-patch.htm > > Eric > > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen >> wrote: >>> jazz patch >> ny connection between this and "soul patch"? >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- The end justifies the meanness. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 17:07:30 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:07:30 -0500 Subject: cattery (also: "under foot") Message-ID: GAT wrote "There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic representative of the breed." Further adventures among the catteries shows that this idea is wrong. A cattery is so called to distinguish it from a doggery, which isn't so called. Certificates of the kitten's purity of birth are provided when a certificate is received from a vet that the kitten has been altered. Meanwhile, it seems that a term of art among managers of catteries is "under foot". They assert either on their website or in correspondence with me that their kittens are raised "under foot", meaning that they are not kept in cages but are free to roam the house. Saying raised "on the floor" might be a better way to express the idea, but anyway. GAT On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, George Thompson wrote: > > The OED has the following definition for "cattery": > An establishment of cats. > 1791 G. Huddesford *Monody Death Dick* in *Salmagundi > * 133 Enshrin'd celestial Cateries among, the sable Matron. > 1827 R. Southey *Select. Lett. > * (1856) IV. 171 All the royal Cattery of Cats' Eden. > *a*1843 R. Southey *Doctor > * (1847) VII. 587 An evil fortune attended all our attempts at > re-establishing a Cattery. > > > No doubt this entry was composed when Queen Victoria was hobbling about > the Palace with a walker, and there's been no pressing need to revise it > since. Still, the quotations are pretty baffling -- Zen, we would have > said, 50 years ago. > > Anyway, a current meaning of the word is an establishment where kittens > are bred for sale. Perhaps this is what Southey had in mind? > There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, > in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents > of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were > properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one > the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic > representative of the breed. > > I've been corresponding with catteries that sell "Siberian Forest Cats". > If any of you have experience with this breed, I would like to know of it. > Off-list, of course. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 17:07:06 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:07:06 -0500 Subject: Databases: question about searching multiple full-text databases simultaneously Message-ID: On January 5th Bill Mullins posted a message about his ongoing efforts to compile and share a comprehensive list of full-text databases. Bill's work keeping track of these proliferating databases is marvelous. The organizations and individuals creating these repositories (which are often free to access) deserve high praise. The value of these archives would be enormously enhanced if they could be searched simultaneously through a single interface. Are there any projects with the goal of joint searchability for these small databases? The non-productive duplication of efforts makes progress much slower. The goals of a joint searchability project would include: 1) Algorithmic support for a flexible and expressive query language with wildcards. 2) High-quality optical character recognition and segmentation of text fields. 3) Standardized scanning methods and strategies to assure quality. 4) High-quality open-source and/or free software shared between multiple organizations. Using some of these databases is an exercise in frustration. Yet, even the most difficult to use databases reflect a substantial and praise-worthy effort to share information. Joint searchability would pragmatically unlock access to important resources. Garson On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: full text databases (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Starting several years ago, Mark Mandel has hosted a web page listing > full-text databases that I put together (thanks, Mark!). > > I finally got around to re-compiling it, and am using Google Sites to > host it. > > This group may find it useful. I'd appreciate any feedback offered, > comments, additions, suggestions, etc. It still needs a little > tweaking, but is at the 90% level of completion, I'd guess. > > It is mostly the old list, but with additions. I've found many more > student newspapers, for example. > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ > > > Let me know . . . > > Bill > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 18 17:13:48 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:13:48 -0600 Subject: FW: "shower of turkeys" (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE For some reason, when I replied to George's post below, it went only back to George. Trying again, for the whole list . . . . I'd imagine that this is at least somewhat inspired by the now-classic Thanksgiving episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati", in which Mr. Carlson (radio station owner) stages a promotion in which turkeys are given away by being dropped from a helicopter. It doesn't go well. Les Nessman (news reporter on scene) sounds like he is describing the Hindenburg disaster ("Oh the humanity!" "The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement!"). Carlson ends by saying "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly". (Wild turkeys can, BTW). For those who wish to watch: http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoafYtDe.html > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > George Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:24 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "shower of turkeys" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "shower of turkeys" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > From the NYTimes of today, January 17: an article on the disasterous > sinking of a cruise ship in the Mediterranean. > > > > =93But I=92d suspect that on a modern cruise liner like that he=92d be usin= > g > electronic charts,=94 Mr. Menzies said. To hit an uncharted rock =93nowaday= > s > that=92s unlikely, but it=92s possible,=94 he said. =93The other possibilit= > y is > that they were just a shower of turkeys =97 incompetent =97 on the bridge.= > =94 > > But the captain is king on his ship, Mr. Menzies said. =93The man on the > bridge decides everything.=94 > > > The Times identifies Mr. Menzies as the head of a British organization of > Master Mariners. > > > Turkeys certainly have an unfortunate image in popular speech. > > JGreen has a number of items beginning "shower of ...", but not "shower of > turkeys" -- he does have "shower of tom tits", which at least are birds. > He defines the general expression as an unimpressive group of people, > occasionally an individual. The "shower" here might refer to a group, > meaning all of the officers on the bridge, but, although Menzies uses a > plural pronoun -- "they were just a shower of turkeys" -- what he is quoted > in the next sentence as saying suggests he was thinking of just one man, > the captain. > > > For those of you who still don't believe you have read the newspaper unless > your fingers are dark with the ink, the story began on p. 1, but the > passage quoted was on p. 10, col. 2. > > > GAT > > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 17:50:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:50:21 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable In-Reply-To: <4F15C1FA.50000@gmail.com> Message-ID: I received a reply from Nigel Rees about the confusing citation with an apparent 1901 date. He said that 1901 was a misdating. So, currently the earliest known possible allusion to the quotation appeared in the 1910 letter from Hilaire Belloc. Nigel indicated that he had previously identified this reference in Belloc's letter. Great work! Thanks to Victor Steinbok for a response off-list. It does seem possible that "The Scotsman" could be a reference to the newspaper or a reference to an archetypal Scotsman. Similarly, "The Aberdonian" might be a reference to a periodical or an archetypal resident of Aberdeen. I haven't located any periodicals called "The Aberdonian". (There was a ship that used that name.) Garson > On 1/17/2012 12:36 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >> >> ... >> >> Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the >> Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, >> Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on >> paper) >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of >> sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed >> to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be >> often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men >> and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the >> position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is >> damnable." >> [End excerpt] >> ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 19:10:55 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:10:55 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople Message-ID: With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though without citations. While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this morning to make a snowman. The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. According to http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I watched it as Mr. Rogers was passé then for my age group). Searching on that site reveals other snow people episodes. According to http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and usage skyrockets after that. For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" published in 1988 that talks about snow people (http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the spelling without the space. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 20:07:06 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:07:06 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <9446A037-F120-46AD-906B-AD17BFD6A42A@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Snow figures are not necessarily sexless. Much depends on where the carrot is placed. GAT On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the > OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have > "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though > without citations. > > While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used > "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to > identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old > niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this > morning to make a snowman. > > The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. > > According to > http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister > Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I > watched it as Mr. Rogers was passé then for my age group). Searching on > that site reveals other snow people episodes. > > According to > http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the > 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. > > The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and > usage skyrockets after that. > > For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" > published in 1988 that talks about snow people ( > http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The > chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the > spelling without the space. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 20:24:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:24:20 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201181911.q0IFxFeP007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. 1. 1843 A memoir of the life and writings of the late William Taylor of Norwich, Robert Southey, Sir Walter Scott (http://ow.ly/8yeIk) ----- But still such things are more easily produced than ' Madoc': a common magician can make snow-people, but flesh and blood must be the work of a Demiurgos. ----- 2. 1849 Whisperings from life's shore: a bright shell for children, S. W. L. (S. W. Landor) (http://ow.ly/8yfs2) ----- Do you know the little Snow people? ----- 3. 1850 or 1852 The Snow-Image by Nathaniel Hawthorne has "snow-people." It was written in 1852 according to Wikipedia (http://ow.ly/8yeiS). The citation below (http://ow.ly/8yetc) has a hyphen, but it's at the end of the line. The citation at http://ow.ly/8yezc has the hyphen in the middle of the page, and Google Books claims it's from 1850. ----- Warm milk will not be wholesome for our little snow-sister. Little snow-people, like her, eat nothing but icicles. ----- Like the use in the Frosty show and probably Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as below, however, these refer to fanciful snowpeople, not the mundane sort created by mere mortals on snowy days. I will save that for another snowy day (unless someone else is feeling snowily inclined to do so). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 18, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though without citations. > > While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this morning to make a snowman. > > The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. > > According to http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I watched it as Mr. Rogers was passé then for my age group). Searching on that site reveals other snow people episodes. > > According to http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. > > The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and usage skyrockets after that. > > For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" published in 1988 that talks about snow people (http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the spelling without the space. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 20:27:09 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:27:09 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182007.q0IJkBt3007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Having trouble with that image :) No problem with calling them snowwomen or snowmen, but in general, it seems odd to call them snowmen. BTW, it seems like words like "snow dog" are an extension rather than actual nouns. BB On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:07 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Snow figures are not necessarily sexless. Much depends on where the carrot > is placed. > > GAT > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wro= > te: > >> With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the >> OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have >> "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though >> without citations. >> >> While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've use= > d >> "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to >> identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old >> niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this >> morning to make a snowman. >> >> The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. >> >> According to >> http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister >> Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I >> watched it as Mr. Rogers was pass=E9 then for my age group). Searching on >> that site reveals other snow people episodes. >> >> According to >> http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the >> 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. >> >> The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 an= > d >> usage skyrockets after that. >> >> For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" >> published in 1988 that talks about snow people ( >> http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The >> chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the >> spelling without the space. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 20:44:58 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:44:58 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182024.q0IJkB0X007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) VS-) On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 21:01:47 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:01:47 -0500 Subject: relipid Message-ID: Trying to devise etymology of trademarks is a fool's errand, but I noticed "relipid formula" in a recent Neosporin commercial and it left me scratching my head. While its use as a trademark may make sense, it is clearly meant to sound "scientific". The trouble start if you recognize what "lipid" is (as most high-school students taking biology, middle-school students and people with reasonable post-secondary education should). My back-of-the-envelope estimate suggests (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the prefix "re-" is productive mostly with verbs or derivatives of those verbs or derivatives of words that used to be verbs. Plus there is a handful of words that don't actually have "re-" as a prefix, but are derived directly from French or Latin (e.g., "replendishing", "resplandence", "resplendour")--where they might have had a prefix appended at some point but it is no longer transparent (and, in some cases, the prefix having only superficial similarity to "re-" in the early forms). "Relipid", as a neologism, does not fall into any of these categories, although the transparent "etymology" appears to be "restoring lipids to the skin" (the expression is associated with body lotions and eczema ointments). Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic grounds. http://goo.gl/cN30A VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 18 21:20:21 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:21 -0500 Subject: relipid In-Reply-To: <201201182102.q0IFxFES017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/18/2012 4:01 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: relipid > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Trying to devise etymology of trademarks is a fool's errand, but I > noticed "relipid formula" in a recent Neosporin commercial and it left > me scratching my head. While its use as a trademark may make sense, it > is clearly meant to sound "scientific". The trouble start if you > recognize what "lipid" is (as most high-school students taking biology, > middle-school students and people with reasonable post-secondary > education should). My back-of-the-envelope estimate suggests (and please > correct me if I am wrong) that the prefix "re-" is productive mostly > with verbs or derivatives of those verbs or derivatives of words that > used to be verbs. Plus there is a handful of words that don't actually > have "re-" as a prefix, but are derived directly from French or Latin > (e.g., "replendishing", "resplandence", "resplendour")--where they might > have had a prefix appended at some point but it is no longer transparent > (and, in some cases, the prefix having only superficial similarity to > "re-" in the early forms). "Relipid", as a neologism, does not fall into > any of these categories, although the transparent "etymology" appears to > be "restoring lipids to the skin" (the expression is associated with > body lotions and eczema ointments). > > Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although > there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic > grounds. > > http://goo.gl/cN30A -- "Relipidification" (for which the above might be an abbreviation) is used here and there. Presumably = "putting back the oil" or so (here, "moistening the skin" or so), from "lipidify" taken as "make oily" or so. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 21:24:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:24:04 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182045.q0IFxFCE017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on ("snow people" OR "snowperson") with the dates set between 1800 and 1900 yields no hits on Google in general, but 339 hits in GB. BB On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest > "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that > are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. > On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are > associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits > on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as > clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among > the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. > Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have > their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at > all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is > usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have > not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these > outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also > note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as > Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home > page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) > > VS-) > > On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 18 21:43:12 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:43:12 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182127.q0IJkBJx007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was forced to deal with the extra-compositional meaning of "snowman" when I saw an episode of Blue's Clues years ago. At one point, Steve pointed to a clay sculpture consisting of two or three balls stacked with the largest on the bottom, the smallest on top, and a rudimentary face, and called it not a "clay man", but a snowman. Why am I ok with stone lions and paper tigers, but not clay snowmen? The stacked attributive nouns of material are too much for me. Neal On Jan 18, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Snowpeople > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Googling on > > ("snow people" OR "snowperson") > > with the dates set between 1800 and 1900 yields no hits on Google in general, but 339 hits in GB. > > BB > > On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest >> "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that >> are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. >> On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are >> associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits >> on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as >> clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among >> the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. >> Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have >> their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at >> all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is >> usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have >> not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these >> outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also >> note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as >> Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home >> page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 21:48:22 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:48:22 -0500 Subject: relipid In-Reply-To: <201201182121.q0IJkBDF007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course, there may be a good reason for Johnson&Johnson to shorten the name to the point of sounding like nonsense--they would want to avoid it being "merely descriptive", which they would not be able to trademark. And if they used an even moderately sensible phrase, their competitors would object to the trademark filing (it's cheap, by comparison). But, ultimately, what they mean by "relipid formula" is "moisturizer". VS-) On 1/18/2012 4:20 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > On 1/18/2012 4:01 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> ... >> Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although >> there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic >> grounds. >> >> http://goo.gl/cN30A > -- > > "Relipidification" (for which the above might be an abbreviation) is > used here and there. Presumably = "putting back the oil" or so (here, > "moistening the skin" or so), from "lipidify" taken as "make oily" or so. > > -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 00:50:43 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:50:43 +0000 Subject: English articles have a happy bias In-Reply-To: <201201182148.q0IFxFRM030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A University of Vermont mathematician Peter Dodds led a team showing that the English language is biased toward being happy. http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-health-behavior/25425-Study-May-Less-Happy-But-Our-Language-Isnt.html Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 01:09:09 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:09:09 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? Message-ID: 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good scare is worth more than good advice." He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 19 01:23:33 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:23:33 -0500 Subject: Library Company of Philadelphia's Afro-Americana Collection Message-ID: From another list. JSB Readex will introduce a digital edition of the Library Company of Philadelphia's acclaimed Afro-Americana Collection this spring. Featuring more than 12,000 searchable books, pamphlets and broadsides, this new resource will stimulate fresh research on centuries of African American history, literature and life. Critically important subjects covered include the West's discovery and exploitation of Africa; the rise of slavery in the New World along with the growth and success of abolitionist movements; the development of racial thought and racism; descriptions of African American life--slave and free--throughout the Americas; and slavery and race in fiction and drama. Also featured are printed works of African American individuals and organizations. Further details appear on the Readex Blog: http://bit.ly/A1VkEe David G. Loiterstein Marketing Director Readex, A Division of NewsBank phone: 203.421.0152 e-mail: dloiterstein at readex.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 01:33:57 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:33:57 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190109.q0IJkBoN007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good > scare is worth more than good advice." > > He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? > > The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous > squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts again. Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 (for a close variant): "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:05:36 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:05:36 -0500 Subject: Headline: "Task: Avoid _Cooptation_ in Election Season" [NT] Message-ID: 1o -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:36:15 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:36:15 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? Message-ID: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:52:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:52:23 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190236.q0J1Kxsd007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bolling is an idiot so I would not put too much stock in his usage. He was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought "apologist" sounded good. VS-) On 1/18/2012 9:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 > > Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," > "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:03:47 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:03:47 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190134.q0J0I0bW030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting to take up most of my thinking time. JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >> scare is worth more than good advice." >> >> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >> >> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). > > Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a > suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts > again. > > Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 > (for a close variant): > > "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe > http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& > > A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:11:05 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:11:05 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190252.q0IFxFX0017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: True, but I've heard O called an "apologist" in recent weeks by others of the pundit class. (Who probably all know each other.) JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bolling is an idiot so I would not put too much stock in his usage. He > was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from > radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought > "apologist" sounded good. > > VS-) > > On 1/18/2012 9:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 >> >> Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," >> "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:11:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:11:31 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190252.q0IFxFX0017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > He > was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from > radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought > "apologist" sounded good. Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could happen. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 04:06:46 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:06:46 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190312.q0J1KxwR007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are two unverified matches in 1999 in which former President Clinton was labeled an "apologist". The meaning seems to be "apologizer". The title of the article dated November 27, 1999 below uses the word. (Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would reject using "apologist" as a synonym for "apologizer".) The Washington Times : From the apologist in chief Washington Times - Nov 27, 1999 He just can't help himself. When Bill Clinton steps foot on foreign soil, he feels an urgent need to apologize for America's past "misdeeds. ... The Washington Times: Prelude to a new cold war? Washington Times - Jun 13, 1999 Even after several rounds of apologies by US Apologist-in-Chief Bill Clinton, Beijing's initial refusals to believe the bombings were not unintentional ... In 2004 a book titled "The apologist" by Jay Rayner was released. Here is a description. [Begin excerpt] Marc Bassett has a reputation as a pitiless restaurant critic. When he writes a devastating review of a particular establishment, the chef commits suicide, roasting himself in his own fan-assisted oven, with Basset's reviewed pasted to the door. Suddenly Bassett is moved to do something he has never done before: apologise. After a series of virtuoso expressions of regret, word of Bassett's mollifying power spreads, and he is invited to become Chief Apologist for the United Nations. His job is to travel the globe in his own Gulfstream V private jet, apologising for everything from colonialism to exploitation and slavery. It is a role that brings him fame, wealth and access to a lot of very good chocolate. [End excerpt] Here is a 2013 movie title that may be using apologist to mean apologizer. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1724600/ [Begin excerpt] The Apologist (2013) Drama Not yet released In an effort to fix his broken life, a depressed man seeks out the girl he humiliated in high school in order to make amends. [End excerpt] The first sense given for apologist in Wiktionary seems to allow apolgizer. Indeed, the term "apologizer" is given as a synonym for "apologist". (Note that I am citing Wikitionary as a sample of word use and not as a traditional "authority".) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apologist [Begin excerpt] Noun apologist (plural apologists) 1. One who makes an apology. 2. One who speaks or writes in defense of a faith, a cause, or an institution. Synonyms (one who makes an apology): apologizer, apologiser [End excerpt] It is possible that the Wikitionary definition was based on the Webster's 1913 definition. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828) http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=apologist&use1913=on [Begin excerpt] Apologist (Page: 69) A*pol"o*gist (#), n. [Cf. F. apologiste.] One who makes an apology; one who speaks or writes in defense of a faith, a cause, or an institution; especially, one who argues in defense of Christianity. [End excerpt] On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> He >> was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from >> radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought >> "apologist" sounded good. > > Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ > doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could > happen. > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 04:32:47 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:32:47 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190303.q0IFxFXA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > But how did Horace get the credit? Here is a hypothetical mechanism for the attributional shift to Horace. The names Howe and Horace are close with respect to alphabetical order. A compendium of quotations may have listed the quotation under investigation with an attribution to Edgar Watson Howe. But, the quotation immediately preceding Howe's words may have been credited to Horace. An inattentive transcriptionist may have incorrectly read the entry and attached the quotation to Horace instead of Howe. I have seen other examples of unusual attributions that seem to follow this pattern. > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. Progress on your opus understandably deserves precedence. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 03:43:33 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:43:33 -0800 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190312.q0J0I0ea030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> He >> was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from >> radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought >> "apologist" sounded good. > > Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ > doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could > happen. I don't know if you actually prayed or not, but it's too late. 1. 1998 "The Apologist" by R.E.M. (http://ow.ly/8yB07) Lyrics (http://ow.ly/8yB07) ----- They call me the apologist And now that I'm at peak You know at first it really hurt We joke about these things I've skirted all my diferences But now I'm facing up I wanted to apologize for Everything I was. So I'm sorry ----- 2. "The Apologist" (http://www.apologist-movie.com/about.php) Playing in 2008 (http://www.apologist-movie.com/watch_the_film.php) ----- Joe is a serial apologist. Totally self-absorbed, he says "I'm sorry" so often, even he doesn't know what the words mean anymore—that is, until a female he tramples refuses his apology. Face to face with his own hypocrisy, he learns just how powerful sincerity can be. ----- I'm sure baker's dozens of other examples can be found. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 06:09:54 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:09:54 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190406.q0IFxFaU017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would reject using "apologist" as a synonym for > "apologizer". Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. Prescriptivism sucks! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 07:41:24 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:41:24 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190303.q0IFxFXA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice This quote was printed in several newspapers in 1899. The earliest cite I have found so far was dated March 25 and it acknowledged the Atchison Globe newspaper. The full title of the 1911 citation given earlier was "Country Town Sayings: A Collection of Paragraphs from the Atchison Globe" by E. W. Howe. So the earliest cites suggest an initial appearance in the Atchison Globe. Cite: 1899 March 25, Hutchinson Daily News [Hutchinson News], [Paragraph length advertisements interleaved with short quotations], Page 3, Column 1, Hutchinson, Kansas. (NewspaperArchive) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice.-Atchison Globe. [End excerpt] Howe was often credited across the decades, but it not clear to me if he crafted the saying or simply compiled it. Here are some variant phrasings for the adage. Cite: 1906 January 30, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Quaker Reflections, Page 4, Column 3, Fort Worth, Texas. (Genealogybank) [Begin excerpt] Good advice won't profit a man half so much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1906 May 20, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM4, Column 3, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Good advice seldom profits a man as much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1911 December 17, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM6, Column 4, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is often efficacious where good advice fails. [End excerpt] Cite: 1912 March 8, Washington Post, Pointed Paragraphs: From the Chicago News, Page 6, Column 6, Washington D.C. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is of more benefit to some men than good advice. [End excerpt] Here is an attribution to Howe a few decades later. Cite: 1947 October 20, Time, THE NATIONS: Prophylaxis, Time, Inc., New York. (Online Time magazine archive) http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,804311,00.html [Begin excerpt] As Ed Howe used to say: "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice." [End excerpt] The adage was ascribed to Horace by 2003. A bit late. Cite: 2003 September 1, Sun-Sentinel, Section: Your Business, A Bit of Humility Won't Hurt by Joyce Lain Kennedy, Page 8, Broward, Florida. (NewsBank) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more than good advice, sayeth Horace, an Italian poet of antiquity. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? > > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. > > JL > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >>> scare is worth more than good advice." >>> >>> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >>> >>> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >>> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). >> >> Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a >> suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts >> again. >> >> Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 >> (for a close variant): >> >> "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe >> http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& >> >> A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 08:39:49 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:39:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201181124.q0I4WdVL028819@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Eric Nielsen quoted: > "The soul patch was popularized by jazz musicians, beatniks and > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul > patch, leading the style to also be called a jazz dab or jazz spot. The style was popular with trumpeters in > particular as the hair provided a cushion between sensitive skin and the trumpet's mouthpiece." "… thus its name." This makes it appear that "soul patch" dates to that era, which is not so. As for "popular with trumpeters in particular," name one other than Dizzy, who wore that tuft of hair for the same reason that I still wear it. It's the style for us black guys of a certain age. "Sensitive skin"? No. Trumpeters don't try to avoid pain any more than, e.g. bassists try to avoid pain in their fingertips or saxophonists and clarinetists try to avoid pain in the mucus membrane of their lower lips. The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for the casual reader. Dizzy was famous for the expansion of his cheeks and the popularity of be-bop glasses and the be-bop tam were attributed to him, back in the '50's heyday of be-bop. No mention was ever made of his facial hair because we colored fellows all wore this patch of hair and had been, since at least the '40's. But it didn't have a special name. is there any indication that this bit of facial hair had a special name even as far back as the lifetime of a famous white wearer of this style, the late-great Frank Zappa? I probably should clarify that my problem is with the pretense that the terms, "soul patch / jazz patch / jazz dab" or whatever are authentic jazz and/or BE terms dating back to the days of be-bop, is a style popularized among the polloi by Dizzy or some other jazz musician, and that the style once had a practical use. FWIW, "jazz patch / dab" was unknown to me before now and I've never heard "soul patch" spoken by anyone. GBooks has "jazz patch" from 1947 in TIME. It's used as "cotton patch" is used. It's where jazz metaphorically "grows" and not a style of facial hair. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Thu Jan 19 11:06:20 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:06:20 +0000 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It (the version nearest below) appeared in the Atchison {KS] Daily Globe, March 23, 1899; pg. 2; Issue 6,654; col C (19th century newspapers), article title, "Globe Sights" Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Garson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:41 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] bogus Horatian quote? A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice This quote was printed in several newspapers in 1899. The earliest cite I have found so far was dated March 25 and it acknowledged the Atchison Globe newspaper. The full title of the 1911 citation given earlier was "Country Town Sayings: A Collection of Paragraphs from the Atchison Globe" by E. W. Howe. So the earliest cites suggest an initial appearance in the Atchison Globe. Cite: 1899 March 25, Hutchinson Daily News [Hutchinson News], [Paragraph length advertisements interleaved with short quotations], Page 3, Column 1, Hutchinson, Kansas. (NewspaperArchive) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice.-Atchison Globe. [End excerpt] Howe was often credited across the decades, but it not clear to me if he crafted the saying or simply compiled it. Here are some variant phrasings for the adage. Cite: 1906 January 30, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Quaker Reflections, Page 4, Column 3, Fort Worth, Texas. (Genealogybank) [Begin excerpt] Good advice won't profit a man half so much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1906 May 20, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM4, Column 3, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Good advice seldom profits a man as much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1911 December 17, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM6, Column 4, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is often efficacious where good advice fails. [End excerpt] Cite: 1912 March 8, Washington Post, Pointed Paragraphs: From the Chicago News, Page 6, Column 6, Washington D.C. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is of more benefit to some men than good advice. [End excerpt] Here is an attribution to Howe a few decades later. Cite: 1947 October 20, Time, THE NATIONS: Prophylaxis, Time, Inc., New York. (Online Time magazine archive) http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,804311,00.html [Begin excerpt] As Ed Howe used to say: "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice." [End excerpt] The adage was ascribed to Horace by 2003. A bit late. Cite: 2003 September 1, Sun-Sentinel, Section: Your Business, A Bit of Humility Won't Hurt by Joyce Lain Kennedy, Page 8, Broward, Florida. (NewsBank) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more than good advice, sayeth Horace, an Italian poet of antiquity. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? > > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. > > JL > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >>> scare is worth more than good advice." >>> >>> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >>> >>> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >>> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). >> >> Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a >> suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts >> again. >> >> Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 >> (for a close variant): >> >> "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe >> http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& >> >> A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 19 14:21:17 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:21:17 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/19/2012 01:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would > reject using "apologist" as a synonym for > > "apologizer". > >Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against >Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a >language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. > >Prescriptivism sucks! The OED's definition of "apologist" is, in toto: "One who apologizes for, or defends by argument; a professed literary champion." I think they were right in moving to the A's! :-) The absence of an object for the preposition "for" (if not also for the "by") leaves unstated what it is that an apologist is apologizing for. So could it not mean the same as "apologizer"? And I note under "apologizer" the complete definition is "One who apologizes (in modern usage for a fault or offence; in early use = apologist n.)." Also, here the object of the "for" is stated. Joel Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 16:00:10 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201191421.q0J4XDDg022047@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >the meaning of a word in a language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. Gray's Law. JL On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:21 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/19/2012 01:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would >> reject using "apologist" as a synonym for >> > "apologizer". >> >>Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against >>Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a >>language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. >> >>Prescriptivism sucks! > > The OED's definition of "apologist" is, in toto: "One who apologizes > for, or defends by argument; a professed literary champion." > > I think they were right in moving to the A's! :-) The absence of an > object for the preposition "for" (if not also for the "by") leaves > unstated what it is that an apologist is apologizing for. So could > it not mean the same as "apologizer"? And I note under "apologizer" > the complete definition is "One who apologizes (in modern usage for a > fault or offence; in early use = apologist n.)." Also, here the > object of the "for" is stated. > > Joel > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 19 16:55:41 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:41 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer Message-ID: Found recently: Religious leaders, not surprisingly, are very active apologists. In recent years Pope John Paul II has asked forgiveness for his church's violence during the 16th-century Counter-Reformation, for complicity in the African slave trade and for abuses committed by Christian colonizers against Indian peoples. "SAY YOU'RE SORRY; CLEANSE YOURSELF THIS MILLENNIUM; BRITAIN IS DOING IT," an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Nexis), June 8, 1997, p E-2 It's a start, but it's not enough. The apologies tendered by Bill Clinton for the Tuskegee experiments and Tony Blair for the Irish famine only point up the need for volunteer apologists to aid in this great work. Florence King, "APOLOGIZER BUNNY SHIFTS INTO OVERDRIVE," a commentary in the Richmond Times Dispatch (Nexis), August 17, 1997, p F-5 [AN unimpeachable source informs us that the latest rage in Washington is to take a course in apology-training. ''Politics,'' he explained, ''is having to say you're sorry.'' ''Whatever became of assertiveness-training?'' we asked him. . ''Postive? You want positive?'' our source said. ''How about the ploy of 'the one teeny little mistake'? You know, where the apologist says in effect, 'With all the things I'm doing right, maybe I'm entitled....''' ''Or perhaps you can say, 'I take full responsibility' - without saying for what,'' we proposed. Melvin Moddocks, "The new wisdom: always apologize, always explain," Christian Science Monitor (Nexis), March 13, 1987, p 23] I also saw two definitions in _Wikidictionary_. So, I guess it's here to stay, at least for a while. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 17:00:36 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:00:36 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable In-Reply-To: <201201181750.q0IFxFMv007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson, since the 1946 quotation appeared in an American publication, presumably by an American author, my impression is that an "archetypal Scotsman" was intended rather than the paper of that name, with which few Americans would have been familiar. Perhaps more weight should go to the question of whether such an assertion would have been "characteristic" of _The Scotsman_ (or might have been thought to be). My guess is it wouldn't. JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, > and the expense damnable > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I received a reply from Nigel Rees about the confusing citation with > an apparent 1901 date. He said that 1901 was a misdating. So, > currently the earliest known possible allusion to the quotation > appeared in the 1910 letter from Hilaire Belloc. Nigel indicated that > he had previously identified this reference in Belloc's letter. Great > work! > > Thanks to Victor Steinbok for a response off-list. It does seem > possible that "The Scotsman" could be a reference to the newspaper or > a reference to an archetypal Scotsman. Similarly, "The Aberdonian" > might be a reference to a periodical or an archetypal resident of > Aberdeen. I haven't located any periodicals called "The Aberdonian". > (There was a ship that used that name.) > > Garson > >> On 1/17/2012 12:36 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the >>> Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, >>> Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on >>> paper) >>> >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of >>> sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed >>> to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be >>> often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men >>> and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the >>> position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is >>> damnable." >>> [End excerpt] >>> ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 17:52:12 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:52:12 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201191106.q0J4XDFu032295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen Goranson wrote: > It (the version nearest below) appeared in the Atchison {KS] Daily Globe, > March 23, 1899; pg. 2; Issue 6,654; col C (19th century newspapers), > article title, "Globe Sights" Great. Thanks Stephen! The saying moved from Atchison, Kansas on March 23 to Hutchinson, Kansas on March 25. This appearance in the Atchison Daily Globe might be the first. "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice" is listed in the online Oxford Dictionary of American Quotations with credit to Edgar Watson Howe in Country Town Sayings (1911). The saying is also listed in A Dictionary of American Proverbs (1992) by Wolfgang Mieder, Stewart A. Kingsbury, Kelsie B. Harder. They also cite Country Town Sayings (1911). The adage is not directly attributed to any individual in 1899, but the page header in Country Town Sayings (1911) says "Paragraphs By E. W. Howe". A paragrapher is "a person who writes very short pieces or fillers for a newspaper" according to the online Random House Dictionary. So Howe was probably the paragrapher for the Atchison Daily Globe in 1899. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 18:49:37 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:49:37 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191655.q0JG7ZIn009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suspect, most people would have trouble differentiating between "apology" and "apologia". Some dictionaries are having similar difficulties. There may be a bit of recency fallacy here as well--the earliest uses may well relate to "apology" and be synonymous with "apologist", then it all changed in mid-19th century. The recent wave of apology-based apologists has been quite independent of the original. I can't say I really blame them--at least, no more so than I blame people for learning the reversed negation idioms and never question them. On the other hand, Bolling is still an idiot and what I said about his usage still holds. VS-) On 1/19/2012 11:55 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > Found recently: > > > > Religious leaders, not surprisingly, are very active apologists. In recent > years Pope John Paul II has asked forgiveness for his church's violence > during the 16th-century Counter-Reformation, for complicity in the African > slave trade and for abuses committed by Christian colonizers against Indian > peoples. "SAY YOU'RE SORRY; CLEANSE YOURSELF THIS MILLENNIUM; BRITAIN IS > DOING IT," an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Nexis), June 8, > 1997, p E-2 > > > > It's a start, but it's not enough. The apologies tendered by Bill Clinton > for the Tuskegee experiments and Tony Blair for the Irish famine only point > up the need for volunteer apologists to aid in this great work. Florence > King, "APOLOGIZER BUNNY SHIFTS INTO OVERDRIVE," a commentary in the Richmond > Times Dispatch (Nexis), August 17, 1997, p F-5 > > > > [AN unimpeachable source informs us that the latest rage in Washington is to > take a course in apology-training. > > ''Politics,'' he explained, ''is having to say you're sorry.'' > > ''Whatever became of assertiveness-training?'' we asked him. . > > ''Postive? You want positive?'' our source said. ''How about the ploy of > 'the one teeny little mistake'? You know, where the apologist says in > effect, 'With all the things I'm doing right, maybe I'm entitled....''' > > ''Or perhaps you can say, 'I take full responsibility' - without saying for > what,'' we proposed. > > Melvin Moddocks, "The new wisdom: always apologize, always explain," > Christian Science Monitor (Nexis), March 13, 1987, p 23] > > > > I also saw two definitions in _Wikidictionary_. So, I guess it's here to > stay, at least for a while. > > > > David ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ly2yr at QRZ.LT Thu Jan 19 18:43:26 2012 From: ly2yr at QRZ.LT (Gint Gaidamas) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:43:26 +0200 Subject: Slang 'Ham' Message-ID: Hello, I have a question if anyone can explain the origin of the sports slang HAM? Why is it written in Capital letters? Plese see links: Spoting slang http://books.google.lt/books?ei=MZsBT4-CBsjP8gPns53hDw&hl=lt&id=RTdcQOlzjXAC&dq=of+New+York+for+a+second-rate+dude+or+masher%2C+and+more+especially+applied+to+the+habitues+of+the+Rialto+in+that+city.+...&q=ham http://books.google.lt/books?ei=R-8BT5u-IJHu8QPqqN3SBA&hl=lt&id=QfBZAAAAMAAJ&dq=ham-fatter++ham+sporting+slang&q=hamfatters+ham Origin by William H. Nugent http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury-1929mar-00329?View=PDF Slang of the stage http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014381/1881-03-19/ed-1/seq-3/;words=Actors+ham?date1=1870&rows=20&searchType=advanced&proxdistance=5&date2=1885&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=ham+actor&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=1 Origin of Ham-fatter http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00713FF3C5511738DDDAC0894DB405B8384F0D3&scp=1&sq=ham%20fat%20man&st=cse Best regards, Gint ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:08:06 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:08:06 -0500 Subject: mythical Message-ID: Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). > He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the > books from former campaign staff. "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. The closest OED comes to it is #4. > 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the > basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better substitute here? VS--) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kenhirsch at FTML.NET Thu Jan 19 19:25:10 2012 From: kenhirsch at FTML.NET (Ken Hirsch) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:25:10 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to this AP obit (http://goo.gl/fxZsS ), Howe "founded the Atchison Globe in 1877 and retired from it 37 years later." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:43:17 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:17 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201191925.q0JG7ZYV009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ken Hirsch wrote: > According to this AP obit (http://goo.gl/fxZsS ), Howe "founded the > Atchison Globe in 1877 and retired from it 37 years later." Nice work. Many thanks for this cite, Ken. Apparently Howe was founder, philosopher, paragrapher, chief cook, and bottle washer at the Atchison Globe. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 19:48:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:48:30 -0800 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201191908.q0JG7ZWn009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news > has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have > been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). > >> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >> books from former campaign staff. > > "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. > > The closest OED comes to it is #4. > >> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. > > Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was > the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or > is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better > substitute here? > > VS--) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:52:07 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:52:07 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191849.q0JG7ZTl009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe *Plato's Apology* is more commonly heard than *Plato's Apologia, *and many people expect Socrates to say he's sorry.* *I know that's I was thinking when I first opened it's covers in high school. Eric On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > > I suspect, most people would have trouble differentiating between > "apology" and "apologia". > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 19 20:30:33 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:30:33 -0800 Subject: DARE Celebration in Madison May 4 Message-ID: (This is also a post on the ADS website.) >From Joan Hall, the chief editor of the Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE), a project supported by the American Dialect Society: To celebrate the publication of Volume V of DARE (Sl-Z) and the upcoming launch of the digital edition (2013), we are having a party in Madison on May 4, 2012, from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. All ADS members (and like-minded language-lovers) are cordially invited. And if you can come a day early, we hope you will join us May 3rd from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. for a mini-conference on DARE and American dictionaries. Our speakers will be Erin McKean, Michael Adams, and Simon Winchester. A block of rooms has been reserved at The Campus Inn 601 Langdon Street Madison, WI 53703 http://goo.gl/qWfwD Toll-free number: 800-589-6285 Group Number: 118573 Group Name: DARE Deadline for group rate: April 2, 2012 We hope to see you! Joan Houston Hall Chief Editor, DARE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 19 20:52:06 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:52:06 -0800 Subject: Important DARE survey: your input is needed Message-ID: Also from the folks at the Dictionary of American Regional English: Please also take a few moments to fill out this survey about how you currently use DARE. The DARE publishing program has so far produced four of the planned six volumes. Alongside the continuing print program, we are about to commence work on publishing the full DARE database as an online reference resource. As we plan this website, we would welcome your input on how DARE should be presented and used online. DARE Online is scheduled for launch in 2013. http://americandialect.org/DARE-ADS-Questionnaire.pdf Completed surveys should be sent to: Emily Arkin Harvard University Press 79 Garden Street Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 USA emily_arkin at harvard.edu Posted by: Grant Barrett American Dialect Society Vice President of Communications and Technology http://www.americandialect.org grantbarrett at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 21:30:13 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:30:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201190840.q0J4XDDD000469@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't ever remember hearing any particular name for that dab of hair until the last fifteen years or so. It has certainly become popular now--as a search in Google Images will show. You were in the avant garde. My first experience with it was with the Maynard G. Krebs character in the "Dobie Gillis" series I watched as a kid. I guess people just had to start naming it. That business about it being an aid to trumpeters is all over the web. I would have found it on Wikipedia, yesterday, had it not been for the blackout. The Wikipedia article for "soul patch" did have a reference to a book on Dizzy Gillespie, but I couldn't check it out any further because the copy on Google Books was incomplete. I would assume the "patch" would be recommended in trumpet books and encouraged in music schools. After a Google Images search of Wynton Marsalis, I found he had a "jazz/soul patch" in the early 80s that was a nice counterpoint to the moustache he sported, http://allynscura.blogspot.com/search/label/Wynton%20Marsalis but later photos show him to be clean shaven. Apparently, a musician of his high caliber( in both Jazz and Classical music) didn't find it a help for his technique or he'd still have one. I never realized this beard style has been around as long as you say, Wilson. Eric On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Eric Nielsen > quoted: > > "The soul patch was popularized by jazz < > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-jazz.htm> musicians, beatniks and > > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. > Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul > patch, leading the style to > also be called a jazz dab or jazz spot. The style was popular with > trumpeters in > particular as the hair provided a cushion between > sensitive skin and the trumpet's mouthpiece." > > "… thus its name." > > This makes it appear that "soul patch" dates to that era, which is not > so. As for "popular with trumpeters in particular," name one other > than Dizzy, who wore that tuft of hair for the same reason that I > still wear it. It's the style for us black guys of a certain age. > "Sensitive skin"? No. Trumpeters don't try to avoid pain any more > than, e.g. bassists try to avoid pain in their fingertips or > saxophonists and clarinetists try to avoid pain in the mucus membrane > of their lower lips. > > The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, > although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last > year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for > the casual reader. > > Dizzy was famous for the expansion of his cheeks and the popularity of > be-bop glasses and the be-bop tam were attributed to him, back in the > '50's heyday of be-bop. No mention was ever made of his facial hair > because we colored fellows all wore this patch of hair and had been, > since at least the '40's. But it didn't have a special name. is there > any indication that this bit of facial hair had a special name even as > far back as the lifetime of a famous white wearer of this style, the > late-great Frank Zappa? > > I probably should clarify that my problem is with the pretense that > the terms, "soul patch / jazz patch / jazz dab" or whatever are > authentic jazz and/or BE terms dating back to the days of be-bop, is a > style popularized among the polloi by Dizzy or some other jazz > musician, and that the style once had a practical use. > > FWIW, "jazz patch / dab" was unknown to me before now and I've never > heard "soul patch" spoken by anyone. GBooks has "jazz patch" from > 1947 in TIME. It's used as "cotton patch" is used. It's where jazz > metaphorically "grows" and not a style of facial hair. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Thu Jan 19 21:46:40 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:46:40 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201191600.q0J4XDbU032295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. However, language is an evolving phenomenon and it the masses that control the evolution. Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 22:06:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:06:18 -0500 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201191948.q0JG7Zta015980@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Epic is the word I was looking for but got a brain fart. VS-) On 1/19/2012 2:48 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news >> has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have >> been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). >> >>> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >>> books from former campaign staff. >> "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. >> >> The closest OED comes to it is #4. >> >>> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >>> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. >> Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was >> the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or >> is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better >> substitute here? >> >> VS--) > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 22:08:07 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:08:07 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191952.q0JG7Zti015980@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If standard sources are to be believed, "apologist" took off as someone involved in Christian "apologia". But, as you know, dictionaries can be wrong with historical facts. VS-) On 1/19/2012 2:52 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I believe *Plato's Apology* is more commonly heard than *Plato's Apologia, *and > many people > expect Socrates to say he's sorry.* *I know that's I was thinking when I > first opened it's covers in high school. > > Eric ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 22:16:51 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:16:51 -0800 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201192206.q0JG7Zpr009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it was of _________ proportions.... On Jan 19, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Epic is the word I was looking for but got a brain fart. > > VS-) > > On 1/19/2012 2:48 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news >>> has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have >>> been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). >>> >>>> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >>>> books from former campaign staff. >>> "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. >>> >>> The closest OED comes to it is #4. >>> >>>> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >>>> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. >>> Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was >>> the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or >>> is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better >>> substitute here? >>> >>> VS--) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 20 01:19:21 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:19:21 +0200 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201190840.q0J4XDDD000469@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, > although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last > year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for > the casual reader. When we talked about "soul patch" back in '05, Bill Mullins posted a cite from 1986 (which is now in the OED): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0506C&L=ADS-L&P=R9994&I=-3 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 20 04:00:39 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:00:39 -0500 Subject: "Bristol fashion", 1803; antedates 1839 (s.v. "ship-shape") & 1840 Message-ID: "My box of diamonds," says I to the girl, "this is neither ship-shape, nor Bristol fashion." John Davis, Travels of four years and a half in the United States of America: during 1798, 1799, 1800, 1801, and 1802. London, Sold by T. Ostell for R. Edwards, Printer, Bristol, [Eng.] 1803. Page 427. Google Books. GBooks has additional quotations perhaps from 1827, 1832 (one being Sir Walter Scott), through 1838. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Jan 20 11:57:09 2012 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:57:09 -0200 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201190050.q0IFxFTA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister would choose an Italian ship. 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said Churchill. 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. Second, their service is superb. And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.'" DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jan 20 12:19:17 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:19:17 +0000 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <000001ccd76a$a4dfb010$ee9f1030$@com> Message-ID: Related, though not Churchill: Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . ‎Sarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister would choose an Italian ship. 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said Churchill. 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. Second, their service is superb. And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.'" DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 20 16:02:14 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:02:14 -0500 Subject: Q: A newspaper correspondent reporting deaths Message-ID: What would one today call an 18th-century local correspondent who reported deaths to a big-city newspaper? "Obituary correspondent"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 20 17:04:50 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:04:50 -0500 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201201219.q0K4WhKN019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for raising this interesting question, David. Excellent cite, Stephen. Here is a version of the less elaborate joke in 1917. Cite: 1917 September 13, Kansas City Star, Diving for French Verbs: Henry J. Allen Finds Language as Exciting as War, Page 4, Column 2, Kansas City, Missouri. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] When we reached the outside our trouble began. There were some thirty or forty women from the train and as we watched the scramble for the very small number of taxicabs and 1-horse vehicles we were reminded of the reason a New York traveler once gave for traveling on a French liner: He said, "there is no foolishness about women and children first." [End excerpt] Google News archive has a Noel Coward attributed version in Miami News of December 9, 1948. Google Books has matches with GB dates in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and more for the simple variant of the joke. Bartlett's Book of Anecdotes (2000) has a Somerset Maugham version. Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations (2008) does not appear to have a match; Not even in the apocrypha sections. Here is some extracted text from a book with an unverified Google Books date of 1993 that presents the more elaborate anecdote attached to Churchill. Title: More podium humor: using wit and humor in every speech you make Author: James C. Humes Year: 1993 Length: 244 pages [Begin extracted text] A journalist from a Rome newspaper cornered the former prime minister to ask him why he chose to travel on an Italian line when the stately Queen's line under the British flag was available. Churchill gave the question his consideration and then gravely replied, "There are three THINGS I LIKE ABOUT ITALIAN SHIPS. FIRST, THEIR CUISINE, WHICH IS UNSURPASSED. SECOND, THEIR SERVICE, WHICH IS quite superb." And then Sir Winston added, "And then, in TIME OF EMERGENCY, THERE IS NONE OF THIS NONSENSE ABOUT WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST." (But seriously, the needs of the family must come first. [End extracted text] I will try to add to this quick incomplete search later when I have some time. Garson On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Churchill? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Related, though not Churchill: > > Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." > > I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . > ýSarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 > > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? > > This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really > Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? > > "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. > After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise > liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister > would choose an Italian ship. > 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said > Churchill. > 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. > Second, their service is superb. > And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about > women and children first.'" > > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 20 17:10:01 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:10:01 -0500 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131716.p7CMKcvv022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: More on the history of pearl-clutching: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/01/pearl_clutching_how_the_phrase_became_a_feminist_blog_clich_.html On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> > >> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, > >> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these > >> things are just lists of words and phrases. > >> > >> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), > >> Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and > >> the accompanying gesture) in this community. > >> > >> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. > > Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 > from NewsBank Access World News: > > WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' > The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 > Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record > > Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to > describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many > creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. > Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a > sneaky thing to do." -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 20 17:42:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:42:30 -0800 Subject: Beta Message-ID: The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 20 18:57:29 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:57:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Beta Message-ID: There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta blocker", another adjectival use). LH Begin forwarded message: > From: Benjamin Barrett > Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Beta > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). > > If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 20 19:24:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:24:04 -0800 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <201201201857.q0KFhRUL019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quickly checking on Google, I found beta with eater, drinker and taster. "Beta cook" is also found, used as opposed to "alpha cook" like "beta male." BB On Jan 20, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 = > campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta = > blocker", another adjectival use). > > LH > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Benjamin Barrett >> Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Beta >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> =20 >> The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but = > today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia = > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). >> =20 >> If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is = > transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. >> =20 >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jan 20 20:10:44 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:10:44 +0000 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <0AF8983E-C1DF-4F91-9938-A7FBD9C556B6@yale.edu> Message-ID: I see that the OED is missing the investments meaning of beta, where the beta of a stock or portfolio is a number describing the relation of its returns with those of the financial market as a whole. This is a fundamental concept of contemporary investments theory and practice. Beta may be contrasted with alpha (also missing from the OED), which is a risk-adjusted measure of the so-called active return on an investment. I'm not sure if these terms were originated (or popularized) by the work of Harry Markowitz in the 1950s or that of Jack Treynor and others in formulating the capital asset pricing model in the early 1960s. They have been in wide use, within the financial community, for decades. Wikipedia has articles on alpha (finance) and beta (finance). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:57 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fwd: Beta There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta blocker", another adjectival use). LH Begin forwarded message: > From: Benjamin Barrett > Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Beta > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). > > If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 01:19:01 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:19:01 -0500 Subject: Jewish Problem In-Reply-To: <201201171515.q0HFFS8D025568@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Arnold Zwicky > Subject: � � � Re: Jewish Problem > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:37 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the >> OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" >> and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. >> >> ... I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this >> particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry >> on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the >> Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" >> /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be >> extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can >> describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is >> if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for >> example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a >> snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, >> racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive >> such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar >> phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly >> snowballed after. >> >> In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually >> interesting. >> >> ... The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the >> "drug problem" or the "weight problem". > > similarly, "black problem" (or "(American) Negro problem"), notably in quotes saying that America doesn't have a black problem, it has a white problem -- i associate this with Richard Wright (and a version of it appears in the 1968 Kerner Commission report). > > related examples: > > Slavery was but one aspect of a race and color problem that is still far from solution here, or anywhere. (Samuel Eliot Morison, The Oxford History of the American People (1965), ch. 33) > > At the root of the American Negro problem is the necessity of the American white man to find a way of living with the Negro in order to be able to live with himself. (James Baldwin, "Stranger in a Village", Harper's, Oct. 1953) > > (some with the indefinite article, some with the definite). > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org GB: The Negro Problem Solved [,,,], by Rev. Hollis Read […]. New York: A. A. Constantine. 1864. The OED seems to lack "Negro problem," but it does have "Negro question" (1801; T. Coxe Let. 15 Mar. in T. Jefferson Papers (2006) XXXIII. 300 The present inclosure will contain the fullest discussion of the Negro question, which I have yet seen.) and both "race problem" (1860) and "race question" (1858). IME, the usual cliches were "Negro problem" and "race question," back in the '40's and '50's, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 01:22:17 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:22:17 -0500 Subject: bogus Carlyle quote Message-ID: 12,000 sites attribute these words to Thomas Carlyle: "War is a quarrel between two thieves too cowardly to fight their own battle; therefore they take boys from one village and another village, stick them into uniforms, equip them with guns, and let them loose like wild beasts against each other." In fact, these are Emma Goldman's words, in _Anarchism and Other Essays_ (N.Y.: Mother Earth, 1910), p. 139, interpreting nearly two densely printed pages of _Sartor Resartus_ (1831-34). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Jan 21 05:41:02 2012 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:41:02 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw Message-ID: I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): ---- Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were familiar with it is irrelevant. "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this goes back a long, long way, for generations. ---- Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak more authoritatively than I could. Thanks, James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 06:32:40 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:32:40 -0500 Subject: From an anti-SOPA rant: _ me_ as subject Message-ID: "The US government is deciding that THEY can decide what _me_ (as a Canadian not subject to American law) can do." Bizarre. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 21 10:20:26 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:20:26 -0500 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <201201202010.q0KJZApM000354@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > I see that the OED is missing the investments meaning of beta, where > the beta of a stock or portfolio is a number describing the relation of its returns > with those of the financial market as a whole. This is a fundamental concept > of contemporary investments theory and practice. Beta may be contrasted > with alpha (also missing from the OED), which is a risk-adjusted measure of > the so-called active return on an investment. I'm not sure if these terms were > originated (or popularized) by the work of Harry Markowitz in the 1950s or > that of Jack Treynor and others in formulating the capital asset pricing model in > the early 1960s. They have been in wide use, within the financial community, > for decades. Wikipedia has articles on alpha (finance) and beta (finance). I touched on this sense of "alpha" and "beta" in my On Language column on "quants": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/magazine/16FOB-OnLanguage-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 11:52:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:52:05 -0500 Subject: taboo [OT--sort of] Message-ID: An article in NYDN was quoted by Eugene Volokh this morning: http://goo.gl/lJtsx > A bigot named their WiFi signal "F--- All Jews and N----" -- and now > cops are investigating. I'm not going to get into First Amendment implications of all this--that's Volokh's job. But I find something very unsettling in this particular example of taboo avoidance. "All" and "and" are incidental, but why is "N---" blanked out and "Jews" is not? If this whole thing is about discrimination, shouldn't both groups be treated equally? Shouldn't the report have been "F--- All J--- and N----"? Or is the aforementioned "bigot" softer on Jews and thus has chosen a less insulting categorization? What if he said "Fuck all Hebrews and Niggers"? Or even "Fuck all Kikes and Niggers? Would NYDN blank out "kike"? Or would they try some weasel-word explanation such as "offensively expressed sexually vulgar disposition toward Jews and African-Americans, not in so many words"? An enquiring Jew wants to know... OK Never mind that it wasn't the "signal" that was thus named, but the "hotspot" that sent and received signals. Speaking of which--is this meaning of "signal" in the OED? Should it be? VS-) PS: Rhetorical questions, of course--No; Yes. In fact, I believe, this meaning of "signal" is quite old--the radio-related question, "Can you locate the signal?" has always meant, "Can you find out where it's coming from?" or "Can you find the source?" It's contextual, but the meaning is similar (unless we parse "locate" differently from locate 7.--say, as "trace back to its origin"--I don't think that's in the OED either). locate, v. > 7. To discover the exact place or locality of (a person or thing). Maybe "locate the signal" should be a listed phrase. (126K raw ghits, although many are spurious) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 12:02:21 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:02:21 -0500 Subject: Rumsfeld redux Message-ID: Apparently, Rumsfeld is an unwise Confucian: http://goo.gl/p7Slp > Confucius Says...Wise Sayings > Chinese Proverbs > > ... > To know what we know, and know what we do not know, is wisdom. What? Nothing about "unknown unknowns"? There is a lot more "wisdom" on this page and I'm wondering how much of it is fake. On second thought, a lot of it sounds like Chinglish, so they may well be authentic (e.g., "A gentleman is calm and spacious; the small man is always fretting.") It's a bit premature, but Chinese New Year is on Monday. We'll slay that dragon when we get to it... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 13:38:35 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:38:35 -0800 Subject: From an anti-SOPA rant: _ me_ as subject In-Reply-To: <201201210633.q0L62YZi007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > "The US government is deciding that THEY can decide what _me_ (as a > Canadian not subject to American law) can do." > > Bizarre. (what's the source? i haven't found it via googling.) actually moderately common. back in February 2006, Thomas Grano did a search for me and found large numbers; his report used the following quote as a header: "This really blew my mind, the fact that me, an overfed, long-haired, leaping gnome, should be the star of a Hollywood movie." -lyrics from song "Spill the Wine", by Eric Burdon Grano's sample had 19 examples with _me_ + an appositive (as in WG's example and the Burdon quote) and 23 with _me_ plus a loose modifier (_for one_, _however_, _too_). in cases where the verb shows person features morphologically, the verb agreement goes either of two ways: 1sg: Heya party people, the holiday season is upon us and me for one am excited. 3sg: me, for one, is the first to admit I have got a long long way to go (for the appositives, you might analyze 3sg agreement as agreement with the nearest, since the appositive phrase is 3sg.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 14:51:12 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:51:12 -0500 Subject: You fascist! Message-ID: Strictly speaking, OED has no evidence of the very loose political usage of "fascist" and "fascism" till the 1970s. (Unless I'm more senile than I think, they began to surface prominently in antiwar discourse about 1968.) At any rate: 1944 John T. Flynn _As We Go Marching_ (Garden City: Doubleday) 1: Fascism has attained to the dignity of a cuss word in America. When we disagree with a man's social or political arguments, if we cannot reasonably call him a communist, we call him a fascist. The word itself has little more relation to its original and precise object than a certain well-beloved American expletive has to the harmless domestic animal it actually describes. As a prominent America-Firster, Flynn was undoubtedly on the receiving end of some of those "fascist" accusations. His book, however, is a libertarian warning against genuinely fascist tendencies in American life. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 14:57:44 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:57:44 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201210625.q0L63YDv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on this matter. Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:40:30 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:40:30 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking season. Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:10:08 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:10:08 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201211502.q0L63Ygj005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. DanG On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue > with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those > little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in > the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking > season. > > Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" > "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > > > ---- > > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > > ---- > > > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > > more authoritatively than I could. > > > > Thanks, > > James Harbeck. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:50:46 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:50:46 -0500 Subject: You fascist! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: this appears to me to be a slight shift in the use of the word without any change in meaning, so there is perhaps no reason why even the OED should note it. There is a sort of general rule of pejorative use that causes a pejorative use of a word when both speaker and nearer agree that the category so named is revile-able. You liberal/socialist/communist/Protestant/Catholic/Republican/professor/lexicographer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Strictly speaking, OED has no evidence of the very loose political > usage of "fascist" and "fascism" till the 1970s. (Unless I'm more > senile than I think, they began to surface prominently in antiwar > discourse about 1968.) > > At any rate: > > 1944 John T. Flynn _As We Go Marching_ (Garden City: Doubleday) 1: > Fascism has attained to the dignity of a cuss word in America. When we > disagree with a man's social or political arguments, if we cannot > reasonably call him a communist, we call him a fascist. The word > itself has little more relation to its original and precise object > than a certain well-beloved American expletive has to the harmless > domestic animal it actually describes. > > As a prominent America-Firster, Flynn was undoubtedly on the receiving > end of some of those "fascist" accusations. His book, however, is a > libertarian warning against genuinely fascist tendencies in American > life. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:18:53 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:18:53 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, there's a little negative evidence to report. As I've just posted to James's blog, ex-rodeo rider Slim Pickens doesn't yell "Yeehaw!" as he rides the H-bomb in _Dr. Strangelove_ (1964). He yells variations of "Wahoo!" A perfect "Yeehaw!" moment. IMO. J: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on > this matter. > > Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. > > JL > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James Harbeck >> Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >> (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >> >> ---- >> Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >> because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >> because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >> Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >> They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >> actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >> familiar with it is irrelevant. >> >> "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >> because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >> history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >> goes back a long, long way, for generations. >> ---- >> >> Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >> although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >> question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >> http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >> pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >> more authoritatively than I could. >> >> Thanks, >> James Harbeck. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 16:10:13 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:13 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking season. Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 21 15:46:07 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:46:07 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <4AEBE213-2B8C-4994-A321-9C30670E6754@aol.com> Message-ID: Some 19th-c. US publications give yee-haw as the sound made by a mule or jackass. E.g.: ....a large jackass....kicked up his heels, and with a most sonorous yee-haw! yee-haw! set off at the top of his speed.... Matters and Things in General (News) Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, September 07, 1844; Issue 51; col C (!9th. c. US N.) Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 21 17:15:58 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:15:58 -0500 Subject: "preppers" Message-ID: It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: --- http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on the horizon. "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly believe that you have to be prepared." Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 17:39:36 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:39:36 +0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201211546.q0L63Y3M012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw Cf. Wp article s.v. Battle cry: Alala, Allahu akbar, Awake iron!, Faugh A Ballagh, Geronimo, Grito de Dolores, Hooah, Jai Hind, Kiai, Merdeka, Oorah, Rebel yell, Santiago; with links to Hooah, Hooyah, Hurrah, Huzzah, Semper Fi. (Add Curahee.) As noted in the article, there were as many renditions of the rebel yell as there were regional military units. My personal variant involves a high-rising falsetto yee- and a very low pitched -hah. Awake Iron!! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 17:46:04 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:46:04 +0800 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201211726.q0L63Y9Y012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: *I'm a Prepper, she's a Prepper ... Wouldn't you like to be a Prepper, too?* ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 18:42:51 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:42:51 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't they have bomb shelters left over from the 50s? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: > > --- > http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 > When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the > Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on > the horizon. > "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly > believe that you have to be prepared." > Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to > themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of > imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and > many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural > disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. > --- > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 18:48:37 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:48:37 -0500 Subject: You fascist! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:50 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > this appears to me to be a slight shift in the use of the word without any change in meaning, so there is perhaps no reason why even the OED should note it. There is a sort of general rule of pejorative use that causes a pejorative use of a word when both speaker and nearer agree that the category so named is revile-able. You liberal/socialist/communist/Protestant/Catholic/Republican/professor/lexicographer. > In polite company, that last one may be downtoned to "You harmless drudge!" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 19:02:04 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:02:04 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: Plus "preppie" was already taken. That would make a nice image, though--a bunch of survivalists with their shotguns wearing penny loafers and camouflage pashminas… LH > > --- > http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 > When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the > Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on > the horizon. > "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly > believe that you have to be prepared." > Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to > themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of > imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and > many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural > disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. > --- > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 19:03:39 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:03:39 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201211804.q0L63YBO012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity . There are several companies that sprung up in the last five years or so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! VS-) On 1/21/2012 1:42 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Don't they have bomb shelters left over from the 50s? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: >> >> --- >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 >> When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the >> Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on >> the horizon. >> "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly >> believe that you have to be prepared." >> Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to >> themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of >> imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and >> many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural >> disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. >> --- >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:11:38 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:11:38 -0500 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201201219.q0K4WhKN019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The recent tragic cruise ship accident has heightened interest in some words attributed to Winston Churchill (and Noel Coward) as David A. Daniel noted. I posted a quick note on the Quote Investigator blog that might be useful to journalists and others interested in this topic. Feedback appreciated. It probably is possible to push back the 1932 date of the Noel Coward ascription. None of This Nonsense about Women and Children First http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/01/21/nonsense-first/ Here is the ending acknowledgement. Many thanks to David A. Daniel and Thomas S. Acton whose inquiries inspired the formulation of this question and gave impetus to this exploration. Special thanks to researcher Stephen Goranson who rapidly identified the early association with Noel Coward. Here is the most interesting citation that I have not included yet because I haven't checked it on paper. I do not know the exact month, year, author, etcetera. Title: The Canadian magazine Volumes: 77-78 Year: Circa 1932 Page: 32 according to GB and HathTrust http://books.google.com/books?id=c7UcAQAAMAAJ&q=jesting#search_anchor [Begin extracted text] Noel Coward's gift for jesting often gets him into difficulties as when he told some people that he was going to "sail on a French liner, where there is none of this nonsense about women and children first", and the widely printed remarks evoked no end of unfavorable criticism. [End extracted text] Garson On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Churchill? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Related, though not Churchill: > > Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." > > I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . > ýSarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 > > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? > > This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really > Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? > > "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. > After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise > liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister > would choose an Italian ship. > 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said > Churchill. > 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. > Second, their service is superb. > And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about > women and children first.'" > > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:23:08 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:23:08 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201210625.q0L63YDv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Association TO the West"? Is this widespread? regional? It's 9mil ghits vs 420mil for "with". I must have been ignoring it all these years. Also 1780 vs. 37K raw for "exists in association to/with". VS-) On 1/21/2012 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 20:33:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:33:48 -0800 Subject: Jade gate/stalk Message-ID: The AHD, OED and Merriam-Webster are all silent on these terms. Wiktionary has them with one citation each: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jade_stalk http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jade_gate Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:42:40 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:42:40 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <4F1B0C0B.3050200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food > supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity > . There are several companies that sprung [sic] > up in the last five years or > so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul > supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not > sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic > move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is (or if VS just left out a "have") ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:45:52 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. > DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 21:35:48 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:35:48 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201212046.q0L62Y7K007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The issue isn't whether Pvt. John "Yeehaw" Smith or someone else, less imaginary, yelled "Yeehaw!" throughout the Civil War. We have no evidence he did. The issue is whether all/most/many/ a pretty fair number of Confederate soldiers realized a/the "rebel yell" by screaming "Yeehaw!" There is no evidence at all for that, even if American folklore of the past thirty or forty years demands otherwise. If "yeehaw!" was stereotypically a donkey sound like "heehaw!" in the 19th C., the likelihood becomes even slimmer. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ronald Butters > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > >> "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. >> DanG > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 22:06:54 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:06:54 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <05BC1FA8-0888-4562-A15A-7B5DDA03A7A6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:45 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > >> "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. >> DanG > The full relevant passage was "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the Civil War I think the observation was that while the "Yeehah!" yell may have itself been in use before the Civil War, it wasn't *called* the Rebel Yell until the Civil War. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 23:04:44 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:04:44 -0800 Subject: Breakup season Message-ID: As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold climate. The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a particular spring phenomenon/period of time. The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of ice in the spring." Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup season": ----- Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 23:09:08 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:09:08 -0800 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201212042.q0L63YKO012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung > > [sic] > > ... This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is > (or if VS just left out a "have") > _sprang_ and _sprung_ are both standard as PSTs of SPRING (i'm pretty sure that _sprung_ is winning). similarly, _sank_ and _sunk_ as PSPs of SINK: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/inflection-rage/ _shrunk_ as PSP of SHRINK is still debated. each form has its own history. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 23:16:50 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:16:50 -0800 Subject: "preppers" (CORRECTED) In-Reply-To: <201201212309.q0L63YuZ005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >>> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung >> >> [sic] >> >> ... This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is >> (or if VS just left out a "have") >> > > _sprang_ and _sprung_ are both standard as PSTs of SPRING (i'm pretty sure that _sprung_ is winning). similarly, _sank_ and _sunk_ as PSTs of SINK: > > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/inflection-rage/ > > _shrunk_ as PST of SHRINK is still debated. each form has its own history. > > arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 23:19:57 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:19:57 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201212042.q0L63Ypv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "That've" would have been too strange to write... I defer to AZ for the rest... ;-) VS-) On 1/21/2012 3:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung > [sic] > >> up in the last five years or >> so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul >> supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not >> sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic >> move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! > This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is = > (or if VS just left out a "have") ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 21 23:28:20 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:28:20 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Breakup season As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold climate. The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a particular spring phenomenon/period of time. The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of ice in the spring." Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup season": ----- Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jan 21 23:36:13 2012 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (sclements at NEO.RR.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" Here's your significant moment, via youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU Sam Clements ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on > this matter. > > Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. > > JL > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: James Harbeck > > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > > > ---- > > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > > ---- > > > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > > more authoritatively than I could. > > > > Thanks, > > James Harbeck. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 23:47:45 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:47:45 -0800 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201212328.q0L62YB4007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wow, 1868! According to Wikipedia, that's the year after Seward's Folly. BB On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. > > DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in > weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring > melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Breakup season > > As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to > dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter > appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held > drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of > garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold > climate. > > The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," > but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not > understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a > particular spring phenomenon/period of time. > > The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or > harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time > period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would > breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. > > The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of > ice in the spring." > > Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup > season": > > ----- > Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! > (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) > ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 23:56:38 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:56:38 -0500 Subject: breakout session Message-ID: "Breakout session" or any other "breakout" of this kind (with or without a hyphen, or even split) does not appear to be in the OED. The top three Google hits: http://goo.gl/1Ly1m > Relatively short session where a small group of attendees, drawn from > a large conference or convention, discusses specific subjects or > aspects of the broad theme of the main gathering. Also called a > breakout meeting. http://goo.gl/jc1nT > A workshop or presentation on a specific topic that serves as a > portion of the agenda of a larger program, seminar, conference or > convention. Multiple sessions typically occur concurrently. http://goo.gl/ekV6H > A breakout session is a kind of session format that takes place in a > conference. In a breakout session, participants are broken up into > smaller groups for the purpose of discussing a specific topic. > This kind of session may also be referred to as a workshop session. It > serves as an opportunity for conference delegates to participate more > actively, and for several discussions to take place at the same time. > A facilitator may take charge of presenting the topic or question to > be discussed, and a member of the team notes down the group’s ideas. > The information gathered may be reported in front of the larger group > later on. VS-) PS: I initially had to do a double-take on "break-up season", because a quick glance gave me "break-up session". That resolved, I realized that there is no dictionary entry. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 00:42:29 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:42:29 -0800 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201212328.q0L62YB4007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it... On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. > > DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in > weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring > melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Breakup season > > As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to > dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter > appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held > drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of > garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold > climate. > > The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," > but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not > understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a > particular spring phenomenon/period of time. > > The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or > harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time > period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would > breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. > > The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of > ice in the spring." > > Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup > season": > > ----- > Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! > (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 22 00:49:23 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:49:23 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <7A823880-BC88-468B-A517-428DBEA29971@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it… Well, in Madison it was called variously "dog turd season", "dog turd thaw season", or (misleadingly) "frozen dog turd season", but as should be clear, that's named for a different effect of the turd…er, turn of season. LH > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > >> I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. >> >> DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in >> weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring >> melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> Benjamin Barrett >> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Breakup season >> >> As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to >> dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter >> appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held >> drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of >> garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold >> climate. >> >> The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," >> but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not >> understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a >> particular spring phenomenon/period of time. >> >> The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or >> harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time >> period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would >> breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. >> >> The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of >> ice in the spring." >> >> Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup >> season": >> >> ----- >> Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! >> (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 01:02:52 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:02:52 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201220049.q0LLUYTu012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has ice-break--which I thought the most likely candidate--under ice, but neither examples nor definitions (several other "ice" compounds suffer the same fate). Ice-breaker gets a separate article. Ice-breaking lumps together adj.&n. and the metaphorical usage (e.g., icebreaking questions). There are a few other terms that are either missing or need updates. There is "ice-beer" from the latest drafts, but "ice-wine" is not--even though Eiswein has a full entry. (Yes, "ice-wine" is used occasionally as a calque for Eiswein.) VS-) On 1/21/2012 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it… > Well, in Madison it was called variously "dog turd season", "dog turd thaw season", or (misleadingly) "frozen dog turd season", but as should be clear, that's named for a different effect of the turd…er, turn of season. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 01:29:15 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201212336.q0LLUYRg012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is the description published in 1866 of a rebel yell from the perspective of a member of the opposing forces. Title: Life in the army: in the departments of Virginia, and the Gulf, ... Year: 1866 Author: J. Chandler Gregg http://books.google.com/books?id=M4y_uRmDyI8C&q=fiendish#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] I was near enough at times to the rebel lines during these three terrible days, to hear their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible [End excerpt] Jonathan summarized other descriptions in a message to the list in December 2006. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;Ppldbg;200612041354550800A The growth of the full-text databases might allow the construction of a more comprehensive set of descriptions. There may have been multiple rebel yells, and they may have changed over time. On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- > > "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" > > Here's your significant moment, via youtube. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU > > Sam Clements > > ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on >> this matter. >> >> Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. >> >> JL >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: James Harbeck >> > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >> > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >> > >> > ---- >> > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >> > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >> > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >> > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >> > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >> > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >> > familiar with it is irrelevant. >> > >> > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >> > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >> > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >> > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >> > goes back a long, long way, for generations. >> > ---- >> > >> > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >> > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >> > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >> > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >> > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >> > more authoritatively than I could. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > James Harbeck. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 02:16:32 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:16:32 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220129.q0L63YxN005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for the link, Sam. It may not matter much, but what Stan yells isn't "Yeehaw!" It's "Yeeeyaahh!" Definitely a / j /, not a / h /. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Below is the description published in 1866 of a rebel yell from the > perspective of a member of the opposing forces. > > Title: Life in the army: in the departments of Virginia, and the Gulf, ... > Year: 1866 > Author: J. Chandler Gregg > http://books.google.com/books?id=M4y_uRmDyI8C&q=fiendish#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > I was near enough at times to the rebel lines during these three > terrible days, to hear their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no > other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty > cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the > "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible > [End excerpt] > > Jonathan summarized other descriptions in a message to the list in > December 2006. > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;Ppldbg;200612041354550800A > > The growth of the full-text databases might allow the construction of > a more comprehensive set of descriptions. There may have been multiple > rebel yells, and they may have changed over time. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- >> >> "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" >> >> Here's your significant moment, via youtube. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU >> >> Sam Clements >> >> ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on >>> this matter. >>> >>> Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > Poster: James Harbeck >>> > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >>> > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >>> > >>> > ---- >>> > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >>> > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >>> > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >>> > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >>> > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >>> > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >>> > familiar with it is irrelevant. >>> > >>> > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >>> > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >>> > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >>> > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >>> > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >>> > goes back a long, long way, for generations. >>> > ---- >>> > >>> > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >>> > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >>> > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >>> > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >>> > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >>> > more authoritatively than I could. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > James Harbeck. >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 04:05:05 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:05:05 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A bunch of typical 19th C. descriptions of "the" rebel yell. Obviously more than one sound is being described, and probably not every yelling rebel was making the same sound in any given instance. "Screams" and "shrieks" may be the most consistent with a "Yeehaw!" Many of the sounds described seem to be a howling falsetto, however, with yips ad lib. But if "Yeehaw" was much used, nobody thought of spelling it out till well into the 20th C. That seems odd to me. 1862 _Bangor Daily Whig & Courier_ (Sept. 23) 1 [19th C. US Newsp.]: We...joyfully listened to the three hearty cheers of the brave tars; so different from the rebel yell. 1866 J. Chandler Gregg _Life in the Army_ (Phila.: Perkinpine & Higgins) 80: I...[heard] their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible. 1872 _Georgia Weekly Telegraph and Georgia Weekly Journal & Messenger_ (May 28) 1 [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The Last Rebel Yell...But the old yell comes/ Though silent are the drums:/ Whoo-hoop! 1877 _St. Louis Globe-Democrat_ (July 22) 11: [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The difference between the regular "hurrah" of the Federal army and the irregular, wild yell of the Confederates was as marked as the difference in their uniforms. The rebel yell was a peculiar mixture of sounds, a kind of weird shout. 1878 William Preston Johnston _The Life of Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston_ (N.Y.: Appleton) 644: The "rebel yell" - that penetrating scream of menace and resolve 1879 _Galveston Daily News_ (Oct. 22) 1 [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The difference between a northern cheer and a rebel yell...One might as well ask the difference between a northern cheer and an Indian yell. The difference is felt, heard, and known to exist., but is simply indescribable. I, for one, shall never forget the rebel yell. Ibid.: There was quite a difference, to my ears, between the unearthly shriek of the gallant men who charged our lines at Gettysburg, for instance, and the full-throated "hurrah" of the men who met them. 1880 Wilson J. Vance _Princes' Favors_ (N.Y.: American News Co.) 26: The Rebel yell - that howling, tigerish shriek! It lives in my ears still! There was something...savage and almost inhuman about it.... 1884 _St. Louis Globe-Democrat_ (Nov. 23) 11: As to what the "rebel yell" is, the boys in blue who faced the Confederates on many a hard-fought field do not need to be told. They remember that sharp, short yelp, a cross between a snarl and a bark, which filled the air with its strident tones....It was in striking contrast to the clear, ringing cheers that rolled along the lines of the armies of the Union in defiant answer. 1885 _Milwaukee Daily Journal_ (Feb. 19) 1: The Old Rebel Yell...a piercing sound which caused shivers to run down our spines....As for reproducing it, even on paper, we could not think of such a thing. 1888 S. Millett Thompson _Thirteenth Regiment of New Hampshire Volunteer Infantry_ (Boston: Houghton Mifflin) 550: The "Rebel Yell" is probably nothing new, but...as old as the word "Hur-rah." As near as can be made out, it is the first syllable of the word hurrah - hur - repeatedly and rapidly given in the roof of the mouth, a high, sharp, falsetto note; probably the sharpest and loudest sound of which the human voice is capable. It is the rapid repetition of the rebel yell, by hundreds and thousands of rebel voices, that gives to it its vibratory, vicious, piercing character. Anyone can easily sound this famous yell with a little practice. As a distinguished Southern writer says, "A man can holloa the rebel yell all day; it does not exhaust the voice." 1888 _Sigma Chi Qly._ (Nov.) 37: It was a wild, oscillating, indescribable sound, as if thousands of enraged animals were howling a death-wail....It was the Rebel yell. 1888 C. B. Fairchild, ed. History of the 27th Regiment New York Vols. (Binghamton, N.Y.: pvtly. ptd.) 248 : And so unlike that horrid, shameful Rebel yell,/ More like the shrieking cry from the demons of hell. 1889 Lippincott's Monthly Mag._(July) 21: A long-drawn eddying howl which echoed and re-echoed among the trees in a peculiarly penetrating cadence...a differentiation of the old "rebel yell," still used among the mountains as a signal. 1892 R. M. Collins _Chapters from the Unwritten History of the War between the States_ (St. Louis: Nixon-Jones, 1898) 282: Once in a great while...a woman would wave a white handkerchief at us, which used to cause us boys to scream like wild cats and toss our gray caps into the air. 1893 Lizzie Carey Daniel, ed. _Confederate Scrap-Book_ (Richmond: J. L. Hill) 107: Then arose that do-or-die expression, that maniacal maelstrom of sound; that penetrating, rasping, shrieking, blood-curdling noise...such an expression as never yet came from the throats of sane men. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 04:07:29 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:07:29 +0000 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201211338.q0L63Yx0012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NY accent is dying out? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddaboutit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwards c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe" itself, as per m-w.com. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sun Jan 22 04:25:50 2012 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Kate) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:25:50 -0800 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201220407.q0L63Y1r005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In NY, I believe it's cwawfee. -- Kate Svoboda-Spanbock (sent from my iPhone) On Jan 21, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > NY accent is dying out? > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= > tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 > > This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = > "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = > would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= > ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= > itself=2C as per m-w.com. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 22 05:27:54 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:27:54 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220405.q0L63Y1n005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From N-archive: ---------- _Sheboygan [WI] Press_, 6 Aug. 1943: p. 7: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 07:08:25 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:08:25 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220528.q0M4W2Z6011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson heboygan [WI] Press_, 6 Aug. 1943: p. 7: > > < parachutists who "give" [sic] when they dive from the plane into space.>> That is an excellent cite, Doug. I now see that Barry Popik looked into yeehaw in 2007 and he found that cite also. Barry also mentioned the OED entry for yeehaw, int. Yeehaw (Yee-ha; Yee-haw) Entry from March 11, 2007 http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/yeehaw_yee_ha_yee_haw/ James Harbeck mentioned that "Ye haw" might be used to control a team of horses, and here is a metaphorical example of that in 1909. Cite: 1909 June, The Medical Standard, Health by John V. Shoemaker, Page 306, Column 2, Volume 32, Number 6, G.P. Engelhard & Co., Chicago. (Google Books full view) To the President of the United States let us accord full meed of praise for the untiring service that he performed towards framing a protective law. Congress willingly did its part, the President himself has justly praised it for its work. But it was the President's spiritual guidance that vastly helped on the good work. It is a good yoke, the two Houses, whenever it pulls, as in this case, together. But the President's goad did yeoman's service, too, as he directed the lumbering team with his honest hearty-"Yee Haw." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 22 11:06:42 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:06:42 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But "aw" is the "standard" pseudophonetic for the raised NYCE (and still very much with us thank you very much) variant [� ə] that is stereotyped in the word "coffee" Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 21, 2012, at 11:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > NY accent is dying out? > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= > tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 > > This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = > "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = > would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= > ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= > itself=2C as per m-w.com. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 12:25:27 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:25:27 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220405.q0L63Y1n005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Yeehaw Junction" is a familiar place to Florida travelers going north to Orlando (Disneyworld) on the FLorida Turnpike where it adjoins Rt 60. Yeehaw means "wolf" in Seminole. It's not a town but a "census designated place." Populatiion 240 in 2000. They sell discount Disneyworld tickets there. It used to be Jackass Junction in the 30's, but renamed when the turnpike came through in 1957. My question: What would jackass be in Seminole? According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeehaw_Junction,_Florida Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sun Jan 22 12:29:51 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:29:51 -0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw Message-ID: The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? - Jim Landau Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:07:22 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:07:22 -0500 Subject: "au jus" Message-ID: Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that comes with its roast beef sandwiches. The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:17:48 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:17:48 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221230.q0M4W2sc011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought these had been posted in 2006-07, but perhaps not: http://26nc.org/History/Rebel-Yell/rebel-yell.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM&feature=related The latter is especially informative. All kinds of sounds ("Yow!" "Yeeow!" "How!" "Hiiii!" "Heee!") but no stereotyped "Yeehaw!" that I can hear. Not one. JL JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:29 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. > > Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? > > - Jim Landau > > Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. > > However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:22:51 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221417.q0M4W2uu011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: These Gettysburg veterans (in 1938) are yelling something like "Wo ho! Hoo-wooo!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1byof4IAHk&feature=related JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I thought these had been posted in 2006-07, but perhaps not: > > http://26nc.org/History/Rebel-Yell/rebel-yell.html > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM&feature=related > > The latter is especially informative. > > All kinds of sounds ("Yow!" "Yeeow!" "How!" "Hiiii!" "Heee!") but no > stereotyped "Yeehaw!" that I can hear. > > Not one. > > JL > > > JL > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:29 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau " >> >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. >> >> Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? >> >> - Jim Landau >> >> Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. >> >> However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> Netscape. Just the Net You Need. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 17:55:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:55:48 -0800 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201221407.q0M89qT1001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that > comes with its roast beef sandwiches. > > The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." > > In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In > fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying > to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 18:17:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:17:20 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites Message-ID: The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. As Barry Popik points out in 2003 (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes frites" are also found on Google. Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a double take and take a second to figure it out." (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 18:39:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:39:06 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <155157D9-A80B-4F7E-A629-D9F2C81241B6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato chips" are there called "crisps". Joel >As Barry Popik points out in 2003 >(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), >the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a >translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at >http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a >difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't >think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > >The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I >have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls >"pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation >and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. > >The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" >would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes >frites" are also found on Google. > >Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly >relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a >double take and take a second to figure it out." >(http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) > >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Jan 22 18:41:12 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:41:12 -0600 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221817.q0M4W2mL007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = > it. > > As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = > at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There = > is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether = > there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = > doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" (1979) uses the phrase during his first visit to McDonald's. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 18:47:31 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:47:31 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221841.q0M89qZr001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have never eaten fast food in Paris, but when I moved to Germany, around 1991, french fries at Mickey Ds were called "pommes frites". DanG On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: Re: Pommes frites > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = > > it. > > > > As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = > > ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > > 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = > > at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There > = > > is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to > whether = > > there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = > > doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > > > For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" > (1979) uses the phrase during his > first visit to McDonald's. > > Jim Parish > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 19:06:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:06:57 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221839.q0M4W2oF007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get that definition. However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. > > But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" > are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato > chips" are there called "crisps". > > Joel > > >> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 >> (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), >> the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a >> translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a >> difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't >> think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). >> >> The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I >> have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls >> "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation >> and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. >> >> The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" >> would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes >> frites" are also found on Google. >> >> Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly >> relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a >> double take and take a second to figure it out." >> (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 22 19:10:38 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:10:38 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221107.q0M4W2fN007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) features are receding, but the features that are retained are ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). [po at l] Johnston On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:06 AM, Michael Newman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "aw" is the "standard" pseudophonetic for the raised NYCE (and still very much with us thank you very much) variant [� É˙] that is stereotyped in the word "coffee" > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 11:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: NY accent is dying out? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> NY accent is dying out? >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= >> tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 >> >> This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = >> "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = >> would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= >> ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= >> itself=2C as per m-w.com. >> >> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Jan 22 19:24:12 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:24:12 -0600 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221910.q0M89qah001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > > When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it > seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) > features are receding, but the features that are retained are > ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for > bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, > uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is > becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still > heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 19:44:13 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:44:13 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221847.q0M4W2oX007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bwahaha. I sit corrected. (I believe the gravity in such places is so strong, however, that not even light can escape.) I assume in "Time After Time," the expression is used for comic effect or to indicate displacement in time-space. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I have never eaten fast food in Paris, but when I moved to Germany, around > 1991, french fries at Mickey Ds were called "pommes frites". > > DanG > > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > >> >> Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = >>> it. >>> >>> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = >>> ( >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= >>> 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = >>> at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There >> = >>> is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to >> whether = >>> there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = >>> doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). >>> >> For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" >> (1979) uses the phrase during his >> first visit to McDonald's. >> >> Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 19:49:41 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:49:41 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 02:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to >find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, >making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get >that definition. > >However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" >which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So >I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. Thus the OED is using here the British terminology to explain: (1) "pommes frites" is the British "chip"; (2) N.A. "potato chip" is the British "potato crisp". I agree, it's confusing. Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. > > > > But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" > > are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato > > chips" are there called "crisps". > > > > Joel > > > > > >> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 > >> > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), > >> the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a > >> translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at > >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a > >> difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't > >> think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > >> > >> The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I > >> have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls > >> "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation > >> and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. > >> > >> The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" > >> would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes > >> frites" are also found on Google. > >> > >> Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly > >> relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a > >> double take and take a second to figure it out." > >> (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Jan 22 20:12:46 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:12:46 -0600 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221944.q0M89qbH001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I assume in "Time After Time," the expression is used for comic effect or to indicate displacement in time-space. Both. Wells, having found himself in late-'70s San Francisco, seeks food at a Mickey D's. He has no idea how to order, so he simply imitates the words (down to the accent) of the trucker in front of him in line. As he walks away, sampling the fries, he mutters to himself, "Ah. Pommes frites!" Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 22 20:40:27 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:40:27 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pauls' right, but the article also comes from over-interpreting Kara's work on the Lower East Side and the perennial idea bouncing around the media of the dialect dying out because, among other things, it is receding among Manhattan Whites due to the high number of them that are transplants. That said there may be a slow deregionalization going on. Kara did find that some local origin Whites are losing a number of NYCE features such as (oh) raising, but her work was in an area that is particularly heavy in transplants. So much so, that she had trouble finding young people whose families would have been on the LES back when Labov did his fieldwork. In my in progress book on NYCE I have mostly maintenance of many features by young people including one who has our precious bird vowel! However, those with the strongest NYCE accents were in a minority even in her high school, where they called it the "Howard Beach" accent. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 22, 2012, at 2:24 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goodman > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: >> >> When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it >> seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) >> features are receding, but the features that are retained are >> ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for >> bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, >> uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is >> becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still >> heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). > > When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect > dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. > > -- > Dan Goodman > If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 21:21:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:21:28 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201221755.q0M4W26a011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As long as they don't say "Oh, Jews!" which I've heard from some people ... VS-) On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > > The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > > And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >> >> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >> >> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 22 21:53:40 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:53:40 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221923.q0M4W2Bu011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: > > On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > > > > When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it > > seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) > > features are receding, but the features that are retained are > > ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for > > bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, > > uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is > > becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still > > heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). > > When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect > dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. Well, there was an article in amNewYork/Newsday in 2008: http://www.newsday.com/long-island/new-york-accent-still-talking-the-tawk-1.878199 http://www.amnyinteractive.com/project/2008/NYC-Accent/ And the NYT City Room blog followed up: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/is-the-new-york-accent-disappearing/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 23:23:37 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:23:37 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221949.q0M4W2pZ007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Pommes frites > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/22/2012 02:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to >> find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, >> making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get >> that definition. >> >> However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" >> which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So >> I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. > > Thus the OED is using here the British terminology to explain: (1) > "pommes frites" is the British "chip"; (2) N.A. "potato chip" is the > British "potato crisp". I agree, it's confusing. Unless "pommes frites" means in the UK what we call "potato chips," I think there is a bifurcating path that leads to one unintended definition. I honestly have trouble processing logic puzzles like this, so here are the definitions from the OED (I haven't bothered including "French fries"): pommes frites Potato chips (see potato chip n. (a) at potato n. Compounds 2). Cf. French fries n. at French adj. and n. Special uses 2. potato chip (a) = chip n.1 2b (now rare); (b) N. Amer. and Austral. =potato crisp n. at Compounds 1a(b). chip b. Cookery. pl. (rarely sing.). A thin irregular slice of a fruit, etc. spec. fried pieces of potato, usu. oblong in shape; = French fried potatoes n., French fries n. at French adj. and n. Special uses 2; also (chiefly U.S.) = crisp n. 7. Cf.chip-potatoes n. at Compounds 2, fish and chips (fish n.1 Compounds 2b). potato crisp undefined If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Jan 22 23:40:27 2012 From: vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Fiske) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:40:27 -0500 Subject: A Prescriptivist Manifesto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the January 2012 Vocabula Review: A Prescriptivist Manifesto http://www.vocabula.com ROBERT HARTWELL FISKE EDITOR AND PUBLISHER The Vocabula Review ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 23:51:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:51:23 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201222040.q0M4W2qn007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > In my in progress book Would it have killed you to write "In my in-progress book ..." ? I'm not even asking for "In my book in progress ..." . I acknowledge that that would be asking for too much. And I realize that an extra nanosecond of processing time should not be a big deal between friends. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 00:37:16 2012 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: follow-up to ADS Portland Message-ID: local column: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/08/grammar-gremlins-might-could-shouldnt/ my response: http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/17/letter-might-could-meant-politeness/ Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 02:27:49 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:27:49 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201222323.q0M89qfF001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: > 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 03:17:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:17:26 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230227.q0M89qjR001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting things to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be classified as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that are clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like poker chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are also other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there are a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from slices of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, banana, plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes but are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've made in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they have in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a vehicle for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It is not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall into that category. Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be considered "chips". VS-) On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. > BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. > > Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 03:46:05 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:46:05 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230317.q0N2hFVc011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wow!! Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. (Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to the list below.) Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green bean chips" (http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827). There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being crispy/having a crunch? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting things > to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be classified > as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That > resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles > kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly > referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that are > clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like poker > chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are also > other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not > necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel > chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla > chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, > [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra > chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the > subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there are > a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips > (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from slices > of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, banana, > plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into > "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes but > are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've made > in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular > "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are > essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped > with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they have > in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a vehicle > for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It is > not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the > reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it > when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to > straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried > "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas > would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables > (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall into > that category. > > Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only > some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be > considered "chips". > > VS-) > > On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >> BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. >> >> Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Jan 23 03:48:18 2012 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:48:18 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221422.q0M4W2vA011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the last couple of days (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 04:13:45 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:13:45 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230346.q0M89qkr001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. I can understand someone wanting to try it with water chestnuts and bamboo shoots, but I'm not sure *I* would want to eat them--which explains why I have not noticed them. Burdock makes sense, but so do other wood chips ;-) I refuse to comment on meatsicles... I mean, if we do beef chips, why not egg chips? How about potato & fish chips? (besides, we already have "cow chips", although that, of course, is a different category ;-) ) VS-) On 1/22/2012 10:46 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Wow!! > > Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. = > http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html = > has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. = > (Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to = > the list below.) > > Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, = > http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix = > category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green = > bean chips" = > (http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827).=20= > > > There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken = > chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. > > Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being = > crispy/having a crunch? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting = > things >> to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be = > classified >> as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That >> resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles >> kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly >> referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that = > are >> clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like = > poker >> chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are = > also >> other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not >> necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel >> chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla >> chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, >> [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra >> chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the >> subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there = > are >> a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips >> (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from = > slices >> of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, = > banana, >> plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into >> "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes = > but >> are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've = > made >> in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular >> "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are >> essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped >> with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they = > have >> in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a = > vehicle >> for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It = > is >> not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the >> reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it >> when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to >> straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried >> "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas >> would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables >> (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall = > into >> that category. >> =20 >> Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only >> some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be >> considered "chips". >> =20 >> VS-) >> =20 >> On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> =20 >>>> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link = > to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>>> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp = > and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >>> BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away = > from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands = > bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have = > captured this change. >>> =20 >>> Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed = > vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery = > store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national = > grocery store chains as well. >>> =20 >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Mon Jan 23 04:21:14 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:21:14 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <17.95.03291.C21AC1F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Uh oh, I'd better really check the hyphenation in my in-book progress, or I'll get it in the reviews! Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Michael Newman > wrote: >> In my in progress book > > Would it have killed you to write > > "In my in-progress book ..." > > ? > > I'm not even asking for > > "In my book in progress ..." > > . > > I acknowledge that that would be asking for too much. And I realize > that an extra nanosecond of processing time should not be a big deal > between friends. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Jan 23 13:53:16 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:53:16 +0000 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201222121.q0M89qdR001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > > The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > > And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >> >> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >> >> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Jan 23 14:03:20 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:03:20 +0000 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! Message-ID:

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this would intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my life
you can get the hang of it quickly.

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 14:31:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:31:06 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ben, How in the world did "surge" not only not win but not even get nominated? Or perhaps you-all were waiting for the greater number of Republican primaries and polls in 2012? But if so, you may have missed the crest -- I think each of the candidates has already had his or her cresting, and we are now (to mix a metaphor) coming to the neap times. Saturday the Boston Globe had "surge" in the first paragraph of its lead article, and Sunday the New York Times had "surge" in the subhead of its lead article. Joel At 1/6/2012 12:41 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, >and the nominees have now been posted: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 14:53:12 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:53:12 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <4F1CDE79.7090008@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 11:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have >broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, >are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. I have seen -- and actually eaten -- wasabi-flavored green pea chips. (But at Trader Joe's they don't call themselves "chips", just "wasabi peas". And they're not flat.) Also, add "buffalo chips" to "cow chips". Joel >I can >understand someone wanting to try it with water chestnuts and bamboo >shoots, but I'm not sure *I* would want to eat them--which explains why >I have not noticed them. Burdock makes sense, but so do other wood chips >;-) I refuse to comment on meatsicles... I mean, if we do beef chips, >why not egg chips? How about potato & fish chips? (besides, we already >have "cow chips", although that, of course, is a different category ;-) ) > > VS-) > > > >On 1/22/2012 10:46 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>Wow!! >> >>Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. = >>http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html = >>has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. = >>(Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to = >>the list below.) >> >>Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, = >>http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix = >>category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green = >>bean chips" = >>(http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827).=20= >> >> >>There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken = >>chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. >> >>Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being = >>crispy/having a crunch? >> >>Benjamin Barrett >>Seattle, WA >> >>On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>>If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting = >>things >>>to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be = >>classified >>>as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That >>>resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles >>>kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly >>>referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that = >>are >>>clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like = >>poker >>>chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are = >>also >>>other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not >>>necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel >>>chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla >>>chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, >>>[other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra >>>chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the >>>subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there = >>are >>>a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips >>>(other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from = >>slices >>>of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, = >>banana, >>>plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into >>>"chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes = >>but >>>are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've = >>made >>>in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular >>>"slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are >>>essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped >>>with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they = >>have >>>in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a = >>vehicle >>>for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It = >>is >>>not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the >>>reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it >>>when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to >>>straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried >>>"chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas >>>would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables >>>(e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall = >>into >>>that category. >>>=20 >>>Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only >>>some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be >>>considered "chips". >>>=20 >>> VS-) >>>=20 >>>On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>>On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link = >>to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>>>>7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp = >>and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >>>>BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away = >>from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands = >>bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have = >>captured this change. >>>>=20 >>>>Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed = >>vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery = >>store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national = >>grocery store chains as well. >>>>=20 >>>>Benjamin Barrett >>>>Seattle, WA >>>=20 >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 23:48:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:48:40 -0500 Subject: yarrowing? Message-ID: From another list. Can anyone cast light? Joel 1) Can anybody tell me what Hesketh Pearson and Hugh Kingsmill meant when they used "yarrow" as a verb, in their book SKYE HIGH? My SHORTER OED wasn't helpful. The OED online wasn't helpful either, nor was an online Scottish dictionary. If they didn't invent the term, where did they find it and why did they enjoy using it? In a section titled "Yarrowing in Earnest" (on p. 213 of the Hamish Hamilton first edition, 1937) their use of the term seems humorous and ironic. Their book is a record of the journey they took to retrace the famous journey to the Hebrides that both Boswell and Johnson described in their separate accounts of their excursion. My only reason for bringing this up is mere curiosity, stimulated by a last look at this work before I donate it to one or another local library for a future book sale. 2) I believe--but please correct me if I'm wrong--that yarrowing is a idiom for travelers and means to skip visiting a place for some reason or another and the word inspired by Wordsworth's poem "Yarrow Unvisited." http://www.bartleby.com/106/257.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 15:05:57 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:05:57 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201112060101.pB5LLVtq023890@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" Fantasy/thriller cliche'. 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you are _someone_. Who? JL On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "rewriting the rules" > > E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has > been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight > years." > > It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And > *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? > > Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. > Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very > strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the > sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. > > Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. > > JL > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >> >> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >> >> >> >> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >> a large price tag attached. >> >> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >> plaything with a hefty price tag. >> >> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >> helpers back. >> >> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >> >> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >> >> JL >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>> >>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>> >>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>> >>> >>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>> and Affairs." >>> >>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>> >>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>> to the World of Libraries. >>> >>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>> >>> From NewspArch: >>> >>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>> >>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>> >>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>> >>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>> >>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>> of modeling. >>> >>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>> >>>> Hot stuff. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>> >>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>> >>>>> --bgz >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 23 16:01:16 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:01:16 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201231453.q0NErF09019891@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/22/2012 11:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have >> broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, >> are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. > > I have seen -- and actually eaten -- wasabi-flavored green pea > chips. (But at Trader Joe's they don't call themselves "chips", just > "wasabi peas". And they're not flat.) > > Also, add "buffalo chips" to "cow chips". > > Joel > You mean buffalo chips aren't potato chips flavored with Frank's hot sauce and vinegar and served with celery and blue cheese dressing? No wonder they didn't taste right! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 16:58:00 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:58:00 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201231431.q0N4VdhN026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > How in the world did "surge" not only not win but not even get > nominated? Or perhaps you-all were waiting for the greater number of > Republican primaries and polls in 2012? But if so, you may have > missed the crest -- I think each of the candidates has already had > his or her cresting, and we are now (to mix a metaphor) coming to the > neap times. > > Saturday the Boston Globe had "surge" in the first paragraph of its > lead article, and Sunday the New York Times had "surge" in the > subhead of its lead article. There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). The noun "surge" was considered in the 2006 WOTY voting in the Most Euphemistic category (defined as "an increase in troop strength"), though it lost out to "waterboarding." At least the military sense of "surge" (as opposed to the various surging presidential candidates) offered a new wrinkle, usage-wise. Notably, the verb could be used transitively, as in "to surge troops into Iraq." More here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003975.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 17:17:31 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:17:31 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/23/2012 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >... >There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the >nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have >been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word >given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). From the ADS pages, I see no such requirement. Rather, "Word of the Year ... The words or phrases do not have to be brand-new, but they have to be newly prominent or notable in the past year." Surely "surge" was prominent. I don't believe it should have beaten out "occupy", but I am surprised no one nominated it. I will have to correct that oversight this year. And is there a category for a word used to death? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 17:34:46 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:34:46 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201231717.q0NGNali032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/23/2012 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >... > >There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the > >nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have > >been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word > >given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). > > From the ADS pages, I see no such requirement. Rather, "Word of the > Year ... The words or phrases do not have to be brand-new, but they > have to be newly prominent or notable in the past year." Didn't say it was a requirement -- just speculating why it didn't occur to anyone to nominate it. We've certainly had words win that had shown prominence but not much lexicosemantic novelty in the year in question -- "bailout" for 2008 comes to mind. > And is there a category for a word used to death? The suggestion of having a "Most Overused" category has come up from time to time. (Additional categories can always be created on the spot if there's enough interest.) Such a category might put us into the icky terrain of LSSU's Banished Words list, though we already cast non-descriptivist judgments for Most Unnecessary, Most Outrageous, etc. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 18:54:38 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:54:38 -0800 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231353.q0N4UTCa018669@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > > On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. >> >> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I >> >> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >>> >>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >>> >>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:04:06 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:04:06 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231854.q0NGNann027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As far as I know, but spelling is probably the big influence here. I'm sure few Americans say [Zy] for the second word, though. Paul Johnston On Jan 23, 2012, at 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > >> Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? >> >> --Charlie >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. >>> >>> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I >>> >>> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >>>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >>>> >>>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >>>> >>>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >>>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >>>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:33:02 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:33:02 -0500 Subject: Au jus Message-ID: The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better... Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:43:07 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:43:07 -0500 Subject: Au jus In-Reply-To: <696692014.151779.1327347182575.JavaMail.root@starship.merit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. > But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). > About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better… > I think another problem is the meaning. In French, the "au" of "au jus" is of course a portmanteau of "a' le" (where is an ad hoc rendering of with an "accent grave"), corresponding to "a' la" as in "a' la mode", "a' la carte", etc. or the "a l'+V" as in "a' l'anglaise". Since the "au" of "au jus" is not only morphologically related to these "a'" forms but also semantically, it may be being assimilated to the phonetics of "a'" as well, a' la "a' jus" (modulo the mutilation of the high front rounded [y], as Geoff warns). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:53:01 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:53:01 -0500 Subject: Au jus In-Reply-To: <201201231943.q0NGNa26032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And I think there are French dialects which have realizations like [a~ A] too (though not the Western ones that influenced North American varieties). Paul Johnston On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Au jus > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > >> The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. >> But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). >> About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better∑ >> > I think another problem is the meaning. In French, the "au" of "au jus" is of course a portmanteau of "a' le" (where is an ad hoc rendering of with an "accent grave"), corresponding to "a' la" as in "a' la mode", "a' la carte", etc. or the "a l'+V" as in "a' l'anglaise". Since the "au" of "au jus" is not only morphologically related to these "a'" forms but also semantically, it may be being assimilated to the phonetics of "a'" as well, a' la "a' jus" (modulo the mutilation of the high front rounded [y], as Geoff warns). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 20:47:40 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:47:40 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201230349.q0N2hFX4011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was struck by the failure of all but two or three earwitnesses to even attempt to spell out their versions of "the" rebel yell. That's two or three out of scores and scores of references. It's also typical nineteenth-century vagueness. It's also striking, though less so, that relatively few writers even bothered to characterize the yell in any particular way. Words like hoot, howl, yowl, rasp, shriek, halloo, etc., occur only infrequently - even as the writers attempt to differentiate the yell from the "Yankee hurrah." An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, "Whoopee!" Also that it is retrofitted, sometimes passionately, as by James's correspondent, to the Civil War. I wonder what Civil War re-enactors yell. JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:48 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks > just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this > Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the > last couple of days > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 20:56:37 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:56:37 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232047.q0NKXsID027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like they're giving up on "Yeehaw!": http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/09/april/rebelyell_040902.htm JL On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I was struck by the failure of all but two or three earwitnesses to > even attempt to spell out their versions of "the" rebel yell. > > That's two or three out of scores and scores of references. > > It's also typical nineteenth-century vagueness. > > It's also striking, though less so, that relatively few writers even > bothered to characterize the yell in any particular way. Words like > hoot, howl, yowl, rasp, shriek, halloo, etc., occur only infrequently > - even as the writers attempt to differentiate the yell from the > "Yankee hurrah." > > An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream > it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized > expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, > "Whoopee!" > > Also that it is retrofitted, sometimes passionately, as by James's > correspondent, to the Civil War. > > I wonder what Civil War re-enactors yell. > > JL > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:48 PM, James Harbeck wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James Harbeck >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks >> just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this >> Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the >> last couple of days >> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). >> >> James Harbeck. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 21:12:21 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:12:21 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232047.q0NKXsID027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream > it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized > expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, > "Whoopee!" Good thing there's an alternative available that avoids any encroachment from the Cleveland Indians mascot, the Internet company, and the novelty cushion. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 02:20:52 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:20:52 -0800 Subject: Fartriloquism Message-ID: Fartriloquism is on the Vocabology's word of the day; coming from Urban Dictionary, I don't give it too much credit. And Google indicates it's not widespread. But it does fill a lacuna as an equivalent to "nigirippe" in Japanese. Sushi fans will know that "nigiri" means making a fist with the hand (to mold sushi rice); and "he" is fart. Combined, there is a phonetic change and consonant gemination resulting in "nigirippe," a fart whose air is caught with the hand, then released somewhere else. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 03:22:32 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:22:32 -0500 Subject: finnan/findon/findhorn/findrum Message-ID: The spelling "Findrum" is not listed under "Finnan" in OED. Yet, it is quite common and directly associated with the fishing town/village of Findhorn, at the mouth of Findhorn River in Moray. Yet, the very first quote--a Fergusson poem--uses this spelling. There is a catch--Findrum is /always/ associated with "spelding" or "speldings". Every reference that I found in 18th-19th century sources only talks of Findrum speldings. ("Speldings" is the split and dried fish, mostly haddock and whiting, as opposed to fish that's dried whole, or "lucken".) In fact, this is the case in the Fergusson poem (Leith Races), which is only partially quoted in the OED entry: > The Buchan bodies thro' the beech > Their bunch of /Findrums/ cry, > An' skirl out banl', in Norland speech, > "Guid speldigs, fa will buy." I did find occasional "Findon speldings", as early as 1808, but not "Finnan speldings". Finnan appears to be entirely reserved for "haddock" or "haddie". There is some considerable "dispute" (actually, no one but the OED has a dispute--they always choose one or the other) as to the origin of Finnan haddie (peat-smoked haddock). Many 19th century sources pin it on the village of Findon, about 6 miles due south from Aberdeen center. Others identify it with the aforementioned Findhorn. As I said, the OED etymology note is the only one that juxtaposes them: > A place-name used /attrib./ apparently originally the name of the > river /Findhorn/ , or of a place so called on its banks; but confused > with /Findon/ , the name of a village in Kincardineshire In fact, this is wrong. Findon, being only 6 miles from Aberdeen, is firmly in Aberdeenshire. There is not a single source that I found that places it in Kincardineshire. Even with administrative boundaries changing over time, I don't believe it was /ever/ in Kincardineshire. The location is quite clearly identified in a number of encyclopedias and gazetteers of the early 19th century. I have no particular evidence, as of this moment, one way or the other, between Findon and Findhorn. Generally, as a matter of history, peat-smoked fish has been common in the entire region between Inverness and Aberdeen and most fishing communities around Aberdeen had been known to sell their own smoked fish as "Finnan haddock" or "Finnan haddie". The number of references to Findon and Findhorn between 1808 and 1834 is roughly equal, perhaps with slight advantage to Findhorn (but that mostly because of multiple editions of a couple of cookbooks). Walter Scott referred to Findhorn. It is /after/ 1834 that the references skew heavily to Findon, although references to Findhorn, as the source, still pop up periodically. The reason for the shift is quite simple. Londoners and the rest of Britain became familiar with Finnan haddock from Aberdeen. The smoked fish could only be stored between one and three days before spoilage, unless it was further smoked and dried, which turned it into something else entirely. Even mail coaches along established routes could barely get samples of the fish further South, let alone to London. This changed, however, with construction of railroads. But, since the connection was to Aberdeen and the local lore associated the fish with Findon, so did the printed sources. Findhorn, which used to be an important fishing and trade center, had been essentially ignored. VS-) PS: I am still collecting sources, but it does not look promising, at this point. The sources simply do not go far enough back to make a determination. Wiki suggests that smoked fish was being eaten in Aberdeen as far back as 1640s. So what? Fish has been smoked in other parts of the world far longer. The question concerns specifically Finnan haddie and there is little printed evidence of any kind prior to the last quarter of the 18th century. I am wondering what the OED is using as a source for its etymological determination (clearly, it can't be all correct, if it identifies Findon as being in Kincardineshire). If anyone has or comes across any further resources, please let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 03:25:39 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:25:39 -0800 Subject: blood Message-ID: The attribute "blood" in phrases such as "blood daughter" does not seem to be covered by the OED. Definition 8 pretty much matches this, but the citations and note pretty much limit this to the expressions blue blood, fresh blood and new blood. Related expressions include "half-blood (sister)" and "full-blood (father)." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 24 03:37:52 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:37:52 +0000 Subject: Further Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: I think this should count as a further antedating of "bagel" (OED 1919): 1908 _American Israelite_ 3 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Another proverb that I have noted from my readings of modern Yiddish literature is, "Beigel (roll) and butter you want; to go to Cheder you do not want," which means that one would like to have the benefit of work, but does not want to work. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in Jüdisches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of Jüdisches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erzählungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 03:44:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:05 -0500 Subject: fish sauce Message-ID: OED has both a Nuoc mam (Vietnamese--[1847], 1879) and a Nam pla (Thai--1931) entry for fish sauce (liquid extract made from fermented anchovies). But NO entry for "fish sauce" proper (everyone I know who cooks with the product, including Vietnamese immigrants from the 1970s, refer to it as "fish sauce" when not using the Southeast Asian names). Well, there is a phrasal entry for "fish-sauce", but it's two quotes 1728/1818 for "sauce to be eaten with fish"--not quite the same thing. Nor is there anything (except for one 1868 quote under Mollifying) for "essence of anchovy"--the original British version of "fish sauce" that was used as a base for Worcestershire Sauce, among other things. (Note, however, that there have been multiple preparations of "essence of anchovy", some involving cooking, but most mere brining) It also appears to have been a common ingredient in salad dressings of the day. I found it also in early 19th century cookbooks as an ingredient for various sauce preparations for fish (e.g., an 1807 cookbook lists it along with butter, flour and a glass of sherry, as additives to make sauce from a cooking liquid that comes out from baked red mullet (en papillote, but that name is not used--instead, oiled paper is mentioned; earliest citation for "en papillote" in this sense is, for now, from 1814). VS-) PS: Entry for caviar in 1802 Domestic Encyclopedia > With regard to physical qualities of caviar, we shall only remark, > that it is a nourishing food, and more easily digested than pickled > salmon ; it somewhat resembles in taste, and nutritive property, the > essence of anchovies ; though few persons, on first, trial relish its > flavour. [punctuation in the original] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 04:57:06 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:57:06 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? Message-ID: http://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/ To save those who have no interest in Sardinia from having to go to this page, what we have here is a success in communication. A cursory scan reveals books dating from 1639 to 2008, all - ALL! - downloadable at no charge. The site also houses audio, video, and images, presumably likewise free for the taking, It's not even necessary to log on! Needless to say, you'll search long and hard to find a publication not at least peripherally related to Sardinia. But, WTF you want for nothing?! Meanwhile, American law is so oriented toward getting paid that Google Books can't provide free access to a book from any date, if there's a reprint under copyright in existence, and there's talk of even making it possible to re-copyright material already out of copyright, including orphaned works, under current law, -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 05:29:40 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:29:40 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240457.q0O4Wve6025810@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't make it based on law. The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. VS-) On 1/23/2012 11:57 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ... > > Meanwhile, American law is so oriented toward getting paid that Google > Books can't provide free access to a book from any date, if there's a > reprint under copyright in existence, and there's talk of even making > it possible to re-copyright material already out of copyright, > including orphaned works, under current law,... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 07:38:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:38:44 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240558.q0O5gCf5006516@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, and the fact that nothing like it is available in the United States at any price, let alone at no price, not inconsequential editorializing as to why that is the case.. Needless to say, the Sardinian site is under the auspices of the regional government. Or, as some might look at it, the money is taken from the pockets of the Italian taxpayer by a government controlled by tax-&-spend liberals with nothing but contempt for the publishing business and brick-&-mortar bookstores and even hard-copy libraries. And, once again, think "truthiness," not "error." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure > how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain > cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the > re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is > only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of > some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any > case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't > make it based on law. > > The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has > already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies > to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the > US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). > So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the > unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright > statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending > the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 07:46:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:46:05 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201231403.q0N4VdbH026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � ROBIN HAMILTON > Subject: � � � no more strict deadlines!! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this w= > ould intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
 =3D"http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/">http://reklam= > makinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my li= > fe
you can get the hang of it quickly.

=0A > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:07:38 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:07:38 -0500 Subject: The meaning is clear. Message-ID: "… has 500,000 employees in China and (obviously) _much fewer_ in the United States." There's no reason to bother to distinguish between _much_ and _many_. Or was his intent to write, "… _many less_ …"? About which there can be no argument, of course, the distinction between _fewer_ and _less_ being obsolete. Youneverknow, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 08:19:47 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:19:47 -0800 Subject: The meaning is clear. In-Reply-To: <201201240808.q0O5fOk4030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would have marked "many" incorrect and "much" correct in that sense as an adverb that intensifies the meaning of "fewer." But then again, I have trouble keeping "fewer" and "less" straight (and I don't really care anyway).... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 24, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "… has 500,000 employees in China and (obviously) _much fewer_ in the > United States." > > There's no reason to bother to distinguish between _much_ and _many_. > > Or was his intent to write, > > "… _many less_ …"? > > About which there can be no argument, of course, the distinction > between _fewer_ and _less_ being obsolete. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:45:16 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:16 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201240746.q0O5fOiq030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Worm generated spam, Wilson... Just ignore. VS-) On 1/24/2012 2:46 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > wrote: >>

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this w= >> ould intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
> =3D"http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/">http://reklam= >> makinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my li= >> fe
you can get the hang of it quickly.

=0A >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:47:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:47:51 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240739.q0O5gCvr009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just words, Wilson. I did say the statements were not entirely accurate--never claimed they were in error. VS-) On 1/24/2012 2:38 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed > to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of > Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, and the fact that nothing like > it is available in the United States at any price, let alone at no > price, not inconsequential editorializing as to why that is the case.. > > Needless to say, the Sardinian site is under the auspices of the > regional government. Or, as some might look at it, the money is taken > from the pockets of the Italian taxpayer by a government controlled by > tax-&-spend liberals with nothing but contempt for the publishing > business and brick-&-mortar bookstores and even hard-copy libraries. > > And, once again, think "truthiness," not "error." > > -- > -Wilson > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure >> how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain >> cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the >> re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is >> only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of >> some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any >> case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't >> make it based on law. >> >> The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has >> already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies >> to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the >> US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). >> So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the >> unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright >> statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending >> the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 24 13:54:06 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:54:06 -0800 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240739.q0O5gChh006516@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed > to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of > Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, ... yes, a region of Italy, but also an island (a big island) considerably removed from the mainland -- close to the French island of Corsica, but geographically remote from the rest of Italy. also the home of the Romance language Sardinian (as well as the national language Italian). it's one of the five regions (of 20) with autonomous status -- essentially home rule -- because of their linguistic and cultural differences; all five are off on the edges of the country (three in the far north, Sicily in the far south, Sardinia in the far west). so it's not surprising that the regional government supports indigenous cultural resources like the Sardinian Digital Library. (compare, say, the Welsh Folk Museum, the Geriadur Prifysgol Cymru (Dictionary of the Welsh Language), the Scottish National Dictionary, etc.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 24 13:56:03 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:56:03 -0800 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201240746.q0O5gCwH009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > wrote: ... > ? spam. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:14:03 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:14:03 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" Message-ID: From The Chronicle of Higher Education, an article by Lucy Ferriss about "Pootwattle the Virtual Academic" ™, "created and managed by the writing program at the University of Chicago. ... Pootwattle generates random sentences from phrases 'common in many academic fields'." http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/01/19/palling-around-with-pootwattle/ Term-paper- and scholarly-essay-writing time-saver? There's also Smedley, the Virtual Critic™, who generates review comments. I refrain from commenting on his vast benefit to time-challenged professors and teaching assistants. The article's passage on a Foucaultian (or is that Foucultish?) generated sentence is perceptive. :-) Ferriss gives examples of initial sentences from (real) academic articles she selected randomly, and discusses why they may impress readers as pootwattle. Footnote: In response to an inquiry about "the linguistic history of the name 'Pootwattle'," a writer claims, perhaps facetiously: "The verb "pootle" shows up in Margaret Atwood's most recent book (IN OTHER WORLDS) in its present participial form. The OED actually defines it: "To move or travel in a leisurely manner." The first citation is from D. E. Westlake. "Poot," another verb of recent vintage, is another possibility. Again, from the OED, "To break wind. Also: to defecate"." True (at least of the OED; I haven't checked Atwood). But surely instead of poot[watt]le", the origin lies in "poo-twattle". (Unfortunately, the desired meaning of "poo" does not appear in the OED, despite their having passed through the P's in their alphabetical march. I cite instead Urban Dictionary.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:20:21 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:20:21 -0500 Subject: OT squared: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/24/2012 02:38 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed >to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of >Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, ... If Sardinia is anything like (the reputation of) Sicily (and I think it actually was, in the 18th century at least), boy are you in trouble, Wilson! Just think of Sophia Petrillo. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:30:24 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:30:24 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <3AB2AC30-BA1A-4DA6-A380-D24DD3A848FF@stanford.edu> Message-ID: In a personal message yesterday, Jesse informed me that ROBIN HAMILTON, although a real person (at least when he did not spell his name in all caps), has been removed from ADS-L. Likely his email address and address list have been captured. Joel At 1/24/2012 08:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > > wrote: ... > > > ? > >spam. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:53:36 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:53:36 -0500 Subject: ""Korchevatel" (transliterated from the Russian) Message-ID: How words acquire new meanings -- and a new OTY. (Namely, quoting the article: "anti-scientific event of the year" (or is it "scientific anti-event of the year"?).) The intro to a "SCIgen story"-- Rooter invades Russia Thursday, January 8, 2009, 12:25 PM There's an amazing new SCIgen story out of Russia. Below is the full story, in the words of the mastermind himself, Mikhail Gelfand. But first, the executive summary: * The original Rooter paper, translated into Russian, was accepted into a nationally accredited journal. * The paper received mostly positive reviews. * After the revelation that the paper was fake, the story became a national news sensation. Mikhail even appeared on radio and TV shows. * The Russian word for "rooter" ("Korchevatel", a kind of machine that digs up roots) became synonymous with nonsense and low-quality science. Now enjoy the story of Korchevatel, as written by Mikhail Gelfand: ... At http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/blog/ Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 18:04:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: Angolan, n. and adj. Message-ID: Surely needs attention, and a search for "Angolian" as well. A. n. has two quotations, 1600 and 1976. The slave trade will provide many in the intervening centuries. The definition "A native or inhabitant of Angola, a republic (formerly a Portuguese colony) in south-western Africa." might require extension to the region rather than being limited to a former Portuguese colony. B. adj.'s earliest quotation is 1875. The "Angolan language" can be found in 1724 in Charles B. Johnson's (or is it Daniel Defoe's) "A General History of the Pyrates, from their First Rise", and "A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pyrates" (GBooks, also held by ECCO). There is "Angolan Woman" in 1741: James Parsons, "A Mechanical and Critical Enquiry into the Nature or Hermaphrodites" (GBooks). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 24 20:43:30 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:43:30 -0500 Subject: Angolan, n. and adj. In-Reply-To: <201201241804.q0O5gCd1009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Surely needs attention, and a search for "Angolian" as well. I'm sure you won't have to wait too long, since the OED3 revision project has looped back to the "A" entries (the AA-AEVUM range was revised for the Dec. 2011 quarterly update). > A. n. has two quotations, 1600 and 1976. The slave trade will > provide many in the intervening centuries. The definition "A native > or inhabitant of Angola, a republic (formerly a Portuguese colony) in > south-western Africa." might require extension to the region rather > than being limited to a former Portuguese colony. > > B. adj.'s earliest quotation is 1875. The "Angolan language" can be > found in 1724 in Charles B. Johnson's (or is it Daniel Defoe's) "A > General History of the Pyrates, from their First Rise", and "A > General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious > Pyrates" (GBooks, also held by ECCO). There is "Angolan Woman" in > 1741: James Parsons, "A Mechanical and Critical Enquiry into the > Nature or Hermaphrodites" (GBooks). -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 00:26:13 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:26:13 +0000 Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers In-Reply-To: <936223E39BA6D842A27F2009162ACC6A03ED7360@x10-mbx7.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Some may be interested that Google has provided a list of titles from their short-lived program to digitize newspapers: http://news.google.com/newspapers Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 25 00:45:07 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: Backformed compound verb: "pleasure read" Message-ID: Another example of the pattern discussed here numerous times, of reanalysis plus backformation to create compound verb. From my son's language arts teacher, in an email: The "Read In" is a period where the students camp out around the room and pleasure read. Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 25 01:17:30 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:17:30 -0800 Subject: tipping point Message-ID: article by Henry Chu, distributed by the Los Angeles Times, on Big Ben's tilting reads: The tilt (0.26 degrees northwest) lies at the tipping point, as it were, at wheich the lean becomes visible to the naked eye... The tipping point is the tilt beyond which Big Ben's tower falls over. I say that even the "as it were" caveat does not justify using "tilting point" to mean "first visible tilt", but who listens to me? - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 25 01:28:14 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:28:14 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: >From two recent posts on the subject: http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. I think this should count as a further antedating of "bagel" (OED 1919): 1908 _American Israelite_ 3 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Another proverb that I have noted from my readings of modern Yiddish literature is, "Beigel (roll) and butter you want; to go to Cheder you do not want," which means that one would like to have the benefit of work, but does not want to work. Fred Shapiro I submitted the Jewish Encyclopedia usage of "beigel" to Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster about 8 years ago. She ruled it was not an antedating since it referred to a "cracknel" which was obviously not the modern bagel. So I suppose we will have to go with Fred Shapiro's antedating, since he is after all our expert on Yale lox. _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 03:37:12 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:37:12 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" Message-ID: pastrami (OED 1914) 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 03:44:28 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:44:28 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E9D14@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: After sending this e-mail, I notice that the wonderful website barrypopik.com has an April 2, 1909 citation with the spelling _pastroma_. Fred Shapiro ________________________________ From: Shapiro, Fred Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: jester at panix.com; bapopik at aol.com Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" pastrami (OED 1914) 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 06:48:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:48:26 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" In-Reply-To: <201201241514.q0OF48c2030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "Poot," another verb of recent vintage, is another possibility. Again, from the OED, "To break wind..." Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" Beans! Beans! The musical fruit The more you eat The more you _toot_ and who are unaware of the existence of "poot," being too young to be familiar with the legendary Pogo. Since _poot_ didn't occur with the meaning, "fart," in the comic-strip, being used only as onomatopoeia, I've long wondered whether Walt Kelly's use of the word was in-joke or coincidence. Since the word is known to the OED, perhaps "in-joke" is the way to go. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 11:36:48 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:48 +0000 Subject: The future global English accent - Globish In-Reply-To: <201201250344.q0OLu94g030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Globish is pronounced ~Glubish. This ties in with English as a lingua franca (ELF) ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=054zM_ON_z8&feature=player_embedded ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 25 13:51:41 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:51:41 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232056.q0NGNaBg032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted by the Marines? --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 14:16:02 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:16:02 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY9D012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie, all I know is that "HOO-rah!" (more usually, I think, "OO-rah!") appears to be a post-Vietnam development. I don't associate it with Vietnam War writing. I don't believe I encountered it (in the media, of course) before ca1990, and I don't believe I've ever seen/heard it in Vietnam context. Same goes for the Army's "HOO-ah!" While we're at it, I noticed that the SC audience cheering Newt's slam at the media the other night included a fair number of people (men only?) who cheered with a deep, grunting "Wunh! Wunh! Wunh! Wunh!" like they were receiving the Heimlich maneuver. We've all heard this at football games, but any appearances in print must be pretty recent. Like "Yee-haw!" maybe it'll some day be claimed as the "real rebel yell." I certainly never heard it before the late '70s - at the earliest. But maybe I didn't go to enough games. In fact. I'm sure of it. JL On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted by the Marines? > > --Charlie > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 15:04:35 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:04:35 +0000 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231854.q0NGNann027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: for pronunciation of "au jus" thefreedictionary.com has ~oe ~zhue (~oe as in "toe", ~zh as in "vision" ~vizhin, ~ue as in "true". There is no good way in English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > > Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? > > > > --Charlie > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > >> > >> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > >> > >> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >> > >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> > >>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that > >>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. > >>> > >>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." > >>> > >>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In > >>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying > >>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jennifer.cramer at UKY.EDU Wed Jan 25 15:08:49 2012 From: jennifer.cramer at UKY.EDU (Cramer, Jennifer S) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:08:49 -0500 Subject: New MA in Linguistics! Message-ID: Hello all! I wanted to send a little note to this list about a new MA in Linguistics to be offered at the University of Kentucky beginning August 2012 (pending Senate approval). It was mentioned on the LinguistList today (http://linguistlist.org/issues/23/23-394.html). Please consider directing interested students to our website (https://linguistics.as.uky.edu/maltt) or have them contact me (jennifer.cramer at uky.edu) or our program director, Andrew Hippisley (andrew.hippisley at uky.edu), for more information. The application deadline for next AY is March 15, so students will need to hurry, but we have some funding opportunities for qualified students. Also, if you would like a copy of the brochure in hard copy, please email me off this list with your snail mail info. Best, Jennifer Cramer Linguistics Program University of Kentucky 1371 Patterson Office Tower Lexington, KY 40506-0027 jennifer.cramer at uky.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:13:08 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:13:08 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251504.q0P4ZYQt012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > There is no good way in > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > ???? "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign loan words. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:15:57 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:15:57 -0600 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201250649.q0P4ZY3b031607@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, > there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" > > Beans! Beans! > The musical fruit > The more you eat > The more you _toot_ > > I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". And you left of the next verse: The more you poot, The better you feel. So have some beans At every meal. And there is at least one more version: Beans, Beans Good for your heart. The more you eat, The more you fart. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 25 15:20:33 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:20:33 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71EA0D42F@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > There is no good way in > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > ???? "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign loan words. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:20:45 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:45 -0600 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY8b009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory > "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the > Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably > it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on > the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted > by the Marines? > > I'm pretty sure they didn't use the expression in "Gomer Pyle USMC". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 15:23:49 2012 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:23:49 -0500 Subject: follow-up to ADS Portland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No interest here in double/triple modals? Bethany On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Bethany Dumas wrote: > local column: > http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/08/grammar-gremlins-might-could-shouldnt/ > > my response: > http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/17/letter-might-could-meant-politeness/ > > Bethany > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:24:19 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:24:19 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251520.q0P4ZYHF009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE So it is, as are leisure, treasure, brazier, and Hoosier. I stand (or sit, as the case may be) corrected. I should think longer and post shorter. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Baker, John > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:34:31 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:34:31 -0600 Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201250026.q0OLu9q2030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE They seemed to have pulled the "Advanced Search" page for Google News Archive -- does anyone know how to limit a GNA search to a particular paper? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Some may be interested that Google has provided a list of titles from their > short-lived program to digitize newspapers: > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jan 25 15:38:03 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251524.q0P4ZYHp009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill AMRDEC Mullins" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So it is, as are leisure, treasure, brazier, and Hoosier. I stand (or sit, as the case may be) corrected. I should think longer and post shorter. > -----Original Message----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Wed Jan 25 16:08:04 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:08:04 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251513.q0P4ZYSJ012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill, It's native for an earlier /zj/ intervocalically as in "vision"--and yes, I know that's a French loan too, but it was taken in with /zj/, as the modern French still shows. It alternates with more nativized /dZ/ at the end of words in rouge, garage (the last is /gaerIdZ to the Brits). Initially, though, it's in all foreign loans. Paul Johnston On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: Re: "au jus" >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ >> >> There is no good way in >> English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English >> > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 25 16:27:02 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:27:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E9D14@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > pastrami (OED 1914) > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) > (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, > Pastrami and Tongues. Oh yeah? 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Wed Jan 25 17:15:37 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:15:37 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY9D012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What does "Corpsal" mean? Dani Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:20:34 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:34 -0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251715.q0P4ZYfh031607@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:25:32 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:25:32 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251720.q0PFWruh012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That was my feeble little attempt at a joke: "Corpsal"/"choral" --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:29:18 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:29:18 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251720.q0PFWruh012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's a homophone of the scientific name for 'blood cell'. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ----- Original Message ----- > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Jan 25 18:12:53 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:12:53 +0000 Subject: gazebo antedated (?) to 1741 Message-ID: ....Unto the painful summit of this height A gay Gazebo does our Steps invite. >From this, when favour'd with a Cloudless Day, We fourteen Counties all around survey. Th' increasing prospect tires the wandring Eyes: Hills peep o'er Hills, and mix with distant Skies.... An essay on the pleasures and advantages of female literature...and three Poetic Landscapes / Wetenhall Wilkes 1741 English Book iv, 5-77 p. ; 21 cm. page 76 London : Printed for the author, and sold by T. Cooper and R. Caswell, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 18:56:45 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:56:45 -0500 Subject: gazebo antedated (?) to 1741 In-Reply-To: <201201251813.q0P4ZYWx009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen Goranson wrote: > ....Unto the painful summit of this height > A gay Gazebo does our Steps invite. > From this, when favour'd with a Cloudless Day, > We fourteen Counties all around survey. > Th' increasing prospect tires the wandring Eyes: > Hills peep o'er Hills, and mix with distant Skies.... > > An essay on the pleasures and advantages of female literature...and three Poetic Landscapes / > Wetenhall Wilkes > 1741 > English Book iv, 5-77 p. ; 21 cm. page 76 > London : Printed for the author, and sold by T. Cooper and R. Caswell, Nice cite. It looks like a commenter with the handle MMcM at the Languagehat blog agrees it is an antedating. He or she found it in the ECCO database and said it was not in GB. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003370.php Now Google Books has it. http://books.google.com/books?id=HKBbAAAAQAAJ&q=Gazebo#v=snippet& ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 20:24:42 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:24:42 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71EA0D430@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, >> there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" >> >> Beans! Beans! >> The musical fruit >> The more you eat >> The more you _toot_ >> >> > > I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". > > And you left of the next verse: > > The more you poot, > The better you feel. > So have some beans > At every meal. > > Well, if we're collecting variants, mine definitely included "toot" rather than "poot", and the second verse went The more you toot, The better you feel, So eat beans with every meal. But I've also heard something like the below, viz. Beans, beans Good for the heart. The more you eat, The more you fart. The more you fart, The better you feel. So eat beans with every meal. LH > And there is at least one more version: > > Beans, Beans > Good for your heart. > The more you eat, > The more you fart. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 22:12:33 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:12:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201251627.q0P4ZYNX009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess I waited too long with my 1907 post. But I have some other things to say on the subject--when done, I'll post it. Never hurts to have another early citation. Just one word, for now: basturma. More on the subject later. VS-) On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > pastrami (OED 1914) > > > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) > > (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, > > Pastrami and Tongues. > > Oh yeah? > > 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked > meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, > pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. > > > http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 23:14:59 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:14:59 -0500 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel Goldwyn 1943) Message-ID: If you have a message, call Western Union. If you've got a message, send a telegram. The lines above are classic rebuffs delivered by hardheaded Hollywood producers to idealistic writers who have created didactic scripts for plays or movies. The words have been attributed to a variety of people and many of them were not Hollywood producers. The Quote Verifier gives this list: Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando, Dorothy Parker, George S. Kaufman, Ernest Hemingway, George Bernard Shaw, and Samuel Goldwyn. The Yale Book of Quotations has a 1954 cite with an attribution to Moss Hart. Barry Popik gives a 1953 cite for Moss Hart. Building on this valuable work I've been able to push the date back a bit for this type of saying. Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] NEW YORK, April 16.—Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the comedy. Messages are for Western Union." [End Excerpt] Cite: 1944 June 12, LIFE, Close-Up: Humphrey Bogart by George Frazier, Quote Page 55, Time Inc., New York. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=fU8EAAAAMBAJ&q=%22a+pain%22#v=snippet& [Begin Excerpt] Actually, Bogart has less ham in him than almost any other movie star. Completely candid in his self-appraisal, he has an active grudge against performers who take themselves too seriously. People like Paul Muni, whom he suspects of nursing the conviction that their work must convey a message," give him a pain. "If they have a message," says Bogart, "they should call Western Union." [End Excerpt] Cite: 1945 April 13, Sherbrooke Telegram, "Gag-of-the-day", Page 6, Column 2, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada. (Google News Archive) [Begin excerpt] Singer Dick Haymes knows a prominent Hollywood producer who ordered one of his writers to dig up a script for one of his expensive contract stars. A couple of days later the writer popped into the producer's office. "I've got just the story", he enthused. "Not only is it sure boxoffice, but it also carries a great message." "Look," grunted the producer. "All I want is a story. Let Western Union take care of the messages." [End excerpt] Cite: 1951 May 17, Boston Globe, The Generals' Memories by Ed Sullivan, Page 21, Column 1, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Every time a Yip Harburg musical comes to town, playgoers must examine it for a message. Yip never being content to let Western Union handle messages. "Flahooley," mighty cute in spots, is embarrassed by its message so confused in its symbolism that I defy the Joint Chiefs of Staff to decipher it. [End excerpt] Cite: 1951 June 07, Trenton Evening Times, Hollywood On Upbeat by Bob Thomas, Page 10, Column 5, Trenton, New Jersey. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] "The pictures that are selling in the current market are those which bear no problems." This means that the future films will place the accent on music, comedy and adventure. As the old Hollywood saying goes "Let Western Union carry the messages" [End excerpt] Cite: Circa 1953, "Some enchanted evenings: the story of Rodgers and Hammerstein" by Deems Taylor, GB and HT Page 232, Harper, New York, (Google Books snippet; HathiTrust match; Not yet verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] Moss Hart is credited with giving the following advice to budding playwrights: "If you have a message, call Western Union." If he really said that, it is a somewhat cynical and curiously inconsistent dictum to come from a man who wrote a musical comedy extolling the virtues of psychoanalysis! [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 23:56:34 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:56:34 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201231506.q0N4Vdqj026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the humidity. 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the humidity." (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) JL On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" > > Fantasy/thriller cliche'. > > 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: > Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you > are _someone_. Who? > > JL > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "rewriting the rules" >> >> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >> years." >> >> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >> >> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >> >> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>> >>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>> a large price tag attached. >>> >>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>> >>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>> helpers back. >>> >>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>> >>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>> >>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>> >>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>> >>>> >>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>> and Affairs." >>>> >>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>> >>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>> >>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>> >>>> From NewspArch: >>>> >>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>> >>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>> >>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>> >>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>> >>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>> of modeling. >>>> >>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>> >>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>> >>>>>> --bgz >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 00:31:06 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:31:06 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201252356.q0PJdiJl012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1824. Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,… Year: 1824 [Begin excerpt] It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks of the rivers, equally warm, .. [End excerpt] Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to contemplate a terrible deed. Date: 1916 April Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness Volume 48 Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 00:42:27 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:42:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 5:12 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I guess I waited too long with my 1907 post. But I have some other things > to say on the subject--when done, I'll post it. Never hurts to have another > early citation. > > Just one word, for now: basturma. More on the subject later. > > VS-) Funny you should mention it. I was going to say something earlier about the link between basturma (in one of several variant spellings I've seen), which I've been served in Turkish restaurants under the name of pastIrmI (or something like that, with those Turkish back /i/s), whither it may have been snuck in by ripping off Armenians, and pastrami, since they both involve dried spiced salted meat. I vaguely recall posting about the connection here decades ago after encountering pastIrmI, and probably being informed by Barry Popik what the real story is. And now, I see others are making the connection in various ways, e.g. http://www.russelnod.com/2010/10/24/bastruma-the-intrepid-traveller-explores-the-roots-of-pastrami/ (apparently inventing a new, nonce spelling for the title of the piece, but not in the text, where it does indeed appear as "basturma"). Anyway, I await VS's post eagerly. LH > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> pastrami (OED 1914) >>> >>> 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) >>> (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, >>> Pastrami and Tongues. >> >> Oh yeah? >> >> 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked >> meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, >> pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. >> >> >> http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 00:44:56 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:44:56 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". LH On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 01:04:17 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:04:17 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <2032779643.200857.1327505883257.JavaMail.root@starship.mer it.edu> Message-ID: At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: >Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. >Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're >certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 01:05:33 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:05:33 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201260045.q0PJdiPV012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH wrote: > Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". At Harvard in 1974 they made it half way to that joke. Date: 1974 December 12 Periodical: The Harvard Crimson Title: Antiwar Attics: Lysistrata by Aristophanes directed by Sam Guckenheimer tonight, tomorrow and Saturday at 8:30 p.m. at Dunster House Author: Paul K. Rowe http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1974/12/12/antiwar-attics-pbnbone-of-the-pleasures/ And jokes the cast occasionally added--like one Athenian's wife disdainful "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"--hit the spot. When one of the women asks one of the men if it isn't terribly hot outside, he answers, "It's not the heat, it's the tumidity." Not every laugh is as literate as that, but most of them will do. Garson > On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >> >> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >> >> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >> humidity. >> >> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >> humidity." >> >> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>> >>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>> >>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>> are _someone_. Who? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>> >>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eigh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 26 01:29:49 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:29:49 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201260104.q0PMAPvp009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: MW3 gives /ou Zus/, /ou dZus/. I don't like these, so I don't use them, but I suppose they are usual? I don't see anything wrong with a French or French-ish pronunciation like /o Zy/ (also in MW3). I might say it, or, depending on my environment, I might say /O dZVs/, "aw juss" (especially in "with au jus"). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 01:38:35 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:38:35 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:05 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > LH wrote: >> Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". > > At Harvard in 1974 they made it half way to that joke. > > Date: 1974 December 12 > Periodical: The Harvard Crimson > Title: Antiwar Attics: Lysistrata by Aristophanes directed by Sam > Guckenheimer tonight, tomorrow and Saturday at 8:30 p.m. at Dunster > House > Author: Paul K. Rowe > http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1974/12/12/antiwar-attics-pbnbone-of-the-pleasures/ > > And jokes the cast occasionally added--like one Athenian's wife > disdainful "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"--hit the spot. When > one of the women asks one of the men if it isn't terribly hot outside, > he answers, "It's not the heat, it's the tumidity." Not every laugh is > as literate as that, but most of them will do. > > Garson Let's see if Safire's improvement on that line can be documented… Ah, here it is, more recent than I'd remembered, in his "Ode on a G-String" column: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/04/magazine/on-language-ode-on-a-g-string.html And I'd misremembered his original, which was "It ain't the teat, it's the tumidity". Curiously, one of the other "tumidity" hits that came up in a search at the Times site was a 1927 article about a declaration by Joseph P. Tumulty (not "Tumidity") that the Democrats would have a tougher time defeating Frank Lowden than Calvin Coolidge in the 1928 election. Guess we'll never know. But there's another yet article in which Tumulty > Tumidity thanks presumably to OCR rather than any particular scandal of the era. LH > >> On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >>> >>> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >>> >>> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >>> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >>> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >>> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >>> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >>> humidity. >>> >>> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >>> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >>> humidity." >>> >>> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>>> >>>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>>> >>>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>>> are _someone_. Who? >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>>> >>>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eigh > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 01:41:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:41:53 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260104.q0Q14Htu007968@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: >> Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. >> Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're >> certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. > > Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for > the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from > "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. > as in "I'm not speaking azure pal, I'm speaking azure dad"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 26 02:26:31 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:26:31 +0000 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 1916 example from The Smart Set implies that blaming the humidity rather than the heat was an all-too-popular cliché of the time, an impression strengthened by the 1917 Vanity Fair citation. The implication is that the phrase must have achieved broad popularity shortly before that time. Perhaps 1915 had a particularly humid summer. For example, the Boston Evening Globe (Aug. 13, 1915) (Access Newspaper Archive) advises, "No folks, it isn't excessive heat that's causing you so much trouble today. It is the doings of our old friend Lieut Col Humidity - the fellow who used to be called Gen Humidity, but whose former title has expired of old age." Incidentally, I took a look at some more pages of The Smart Set, which Garson found. It's truly awful, and it makes me think less of H.L. Mencken for having edited it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Garson O'Toole Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:31 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Fun with phrases Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1824. Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,. Year: 1824 [Begin excerpt] It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks of the rivers, equally warm, .. [End excerpt] Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to contemplate a terrible deed. Date: 1916 April Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness Volume 48 Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 02:35:25 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: Neologism: physible - from PirateBay Message-ID: Printers that allow the creation and reproduction of 3-dimensional objects have been growing in popularity. Wikipedia has some background information about 3D printing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing The Pirate Bay is a famous and/or notorious website that eases the sharing of data. The administrators at Pirate Bay have decided to start facilitating the sharing of data about 3-dimensional printable objects. They also decided to create a buzzword: physible In my opinion the printing 0f 3-dimensional objects is a precursor to more general forms of 3-dimensional assembly. These capabilities will be enormously important in the future. But I do not know if the word "physible" is going to make it. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/3-d-printing-copyright-issues-enter-peer-to-peet-networks/ http://thepiratebay.org/blog/203 [Begin excerpt] Evolution: New category. We're always trying to foresee the future a bit here at TPB. One of the things that we really know is that we as a society will always share. Digital communication has made that a lot easier and will continue to do so. And after the internets evolutionized data to go from analog to digital, it's time for the next step. … We believe that the next step in copying will be made from digital form into physical form. It will be physical objects. Or as we decided to call them: Physibles. Data objects that are able (and feasible) to become physical. We believe that things like three dimensional printers, scanners and such are just the first step. We believe that in the nearby future you will print your spare sparts for your vehicles. You will download your sneakers within 20 years. … We believe that the future of sharing is about physible data. We're thinking of temporarily renaming ourselves to The Product Bay - but we had no graphical artist around to make a logo. In the future, we'll download one. [End excerpt] [The term "sparts" is probably supposed to be "parts".] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 03:15:32 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:15:32 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201260226.q0Q2KsYB012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your response John. I think the comment about heat versus humidity can be pushed back. Here is some evidence that the general expression was a cliche (to some) by 1909. Journal: Industrial Engineering Title: An Improvement in Heating and Ventilating Date: 1909 June http://books.google.com/books?id=bufNAAAAMAAJ&q=familiar#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] That high relative humidity combined with high temperature and with low carbon dioxide content, is almost unbearable we know. For instance, during some of the hot summer months. "It is the humidity, not the heat," is a familiar expression. That high carbon dioxide content, without high temperature or humidity is disagreebale, we do not know. [End excerpt] [sic disagreebale] Here is a prototypical explanation in 1894. Title: The Interior Date: 1894 July 5 http://books.google.com/books?id=dBBQAAAAYAAJ&q=humidity#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We left Chicago on the 22nd of June, I believe it was, and the city was sweltering in heat and humidity. It was not the heat so much as the humidity. If the air be dry, one can stand a heat of ninety degrees or over. If it be wet, we swelter at eighty degrees. The reason is that a dry air immediately vaporizes one's perspiration, ... [End excerpt] On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The 1916 example from The Smart Set implies that blaming the humidity rather than the heat was an all-too-popular cliché of the time, an impression strengthened by the 1917 Vanity Fair citation. The implication is that the phrase must have achieved broad popularity shortly before that time. Perhaps 1915 had a particularly humid summer. For example, the Boston Evening Globe (Aug. 13, 1915) (Access Newspaper Archive) advises, "No folks, it isn't excessive heat that's causing you so much trouble today. It is the doings of our old friend Lieut Col Humidity - the fellow who used to be called Gen Humidity, but whose former title has expired of old age." > > > Incidentally, I took a look at some more pages of The Smart Set, which Garson found. It's truly awful, and it makes me think less of H.L. Mencken for having edited it. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:31 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > > Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia > Britannica of 1824. > > Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,. > Year: 1824 > [Begin excerpt] > It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates > the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in > Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks > of the rivers, equally warm, .. > [End excerpt] > > Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to > contemplate a terrible deed. > > Date: 1916 April > Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness > Volume 48 > Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins > Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps > http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& > [Begin excerpt] > It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat > he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder > him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >> >> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >> >> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >> humidity. >> >> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >> humidity." >> >> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>> >>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>> >>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>> are _someone_. Who? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>> >>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>>> years." >>>> >>>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>>> >>>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>>> >>>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>>> >>>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>>> a large price tag attached. >>>>> >>>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>>> >>>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>>> helpers back. >>>>> >>>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>>> >>>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>>> >>>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>>> >>>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>>> and Affairs." >>>>>> >>>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>>> >>>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>>> of modeling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 26 04:01:41 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:01:41 -0500 Subject: NS = native speaker Message-ID: Has anybody here see or heard this abbreviation used? I've found it in one blog and the Kashmir Journal of Language Research. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 26 04:04:04 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:04:04 -0500 Subject: Sorry, I've just checked JSTOR = lots Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:26:51 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:26:51 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": Message-ID: The narrator: "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have _went_ something like this…" Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. Speaking of dying, if not already dead, distinctions, a lot of people don't bother with that between _bring_ and _take_. Deena of Jersey Shore, a tweet quoted in Star: "Hes bringing me to dinner." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:33:13 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:33:13 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201252024.q0P4ZYhL009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Laurence Horn > Subject: � � � Re: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >> >>> Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, >>> there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" >>> >>> Beans! Beans! >>> The musical fruit >>> The more you eat >>> The more you _toot_ >>> >>> >> >> I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". >> >> And you left of the next verse: >> >> The more you poot, >> The better you feel. >> So have some beans >> At every meal. >> >> > > Well, if we're collecting variants, mine definitely included "toot" rather than "poot", and the second verse went > > The more you toot, > The better you feel, > So eat beans with every meal. > > But I've also heard something like the below, viz. > > Beans, beans > Good for the heart. > The more you eat, > The more you fart. > The more you fart, > The better you feel. > So eat beans with every meal. > > LH > >> And there is at least one more version: >> >> Beans, Beans >> Good for your heart. >> The more you eat, >> The more you fart. >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org The more you poot The better you feel We eat beans For every meal! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:46:00 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 04:46:00 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251520.q0P4ZYHF009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 05:16:12 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:16:12 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251513.q0P4ZYSJ012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. I like ~zh to spell that sound and borrowed it for truespel. Here are the top words with the ~zh sound in decending order (truespel book 4) usually television usual decision pleasure exposure explosion occasion occasionally decisions division measure vision occasions conclusion version unusual measures occasional provision visual invasion confusion Asia leisure garage Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 26 06:10:36 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:10:36 -0800 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201260427.q0Q2Ksgj012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > The narrator: > > "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have > _went_ something like this…" > > Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed > anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." > > Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 08:28:15 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:28:15 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260446.q0Q4cbD5028495@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? VS-) PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not "English"? On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Jan 26 14:01:31 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:01:31 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe he WAS bringing her to dinner, not taking her to dinner. That is, maybe he was invited and given a choice of who his partner could be, understanding that the invitation was extended to him and whomever he chose to accompany him. Sent from my iPad On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The narrator: > > "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have > _went_ something like this…" > > Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed > anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." > > Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. > > > Speaking of dying, if not already dead, distinctions, a lot of people > don't bother with that between _bring_ and _take_. > > Deena of Jersey Shore, a tweet quoted in Star: > > "Hes bringing me to dinner." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 13:35:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:35:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201250344.q0OK68Kr009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As promised, a note on "pastrami" and "basturma", incorporating some personal experience. A few points here, mostly concerning the OED entry, taking off from the etymology note, then the definition. > *Etymology:* < Yiddish /pastrame/ (in Ashkenazic pronunciation > /pastrami/ ) < Romanian Compare the following earlier quotations, the > first two probably reflecting the Turkish etymon (in quot. 1834 > relating travels in Asia Minor in the first half of the 17th cent.), > the latter two reflecting the Romanian:/pastramă/ pressed and > preserved meat (1792; also as /păstramă/ ) < Ottoman Turkish > /baṣdirma/ , lit. ‘something pressed, forced down’ (with reference to > the process in which the cured meat is prepared; Turkish /pastırma/ , > /bastırma/ ), verbal noun of /bastır-mak/ to suppress, to press down. > Compare modern Greek /παστουρμάς/ , Bulgarian /pastărma/ ( < Turkish). First things first. My limited knowledge of Yiddish made me flinch when I saw that "Ashkenazic pronunciation" somehow differs from the generic Yiddish--silly me, I thought all Yiddish speakers were "Ashkenazic". That also makes me wonder how "Ashkenazic" is defined, but that's an inquiry for another day (I did not even bother looking it up). On the other hand, once we get past the Yiddish, there is all that wonderful Turkish/Turkic derivation, through the lens of occupied Balkan territories. But the Ottoman Empire extended well past the Balkan territories--including, of course, Asia Minor, much of the Middle East and parts of the Caucasus. As such, Turkish food products and corresponding terms spread to Syria, Lebanon, Armenia, Azerbaijan (where they speak a close cognate of Turkish) and parts of what later became a part of the Russian Empire. So there is a giant gaping hole in that derivation. On one hand, there is no question that the Yiddish version of /pastrame/ came up through Turkish-occupied (through 1878) Romania and Bulgaria. On the other hand, this may not have been the only path for the words similar to /pastrame/ to enter into English. Not to belabor the obvious, but consider the earliest OED-cited mention of /yogurt/: > 1625 S. Purchas /Pilgrimes/ II. ix. xv. §9. 1601 Neither doe they > [/sc./ the Turks] eate much Milke, except it bee made sower, which > they call /Yoghurd/. Now, this is a good cite. And it takes only a couple of clicks to find a copy in GB. Immediately following the cited sentence, there is another that mentions "/Kaymack/" ("clouted or cloded Creame")--a word that is not mentioned in the OED (it's somewhere between creme fraiche and clotted cream--Wiki suggests it's "originally Serbian" but I find that very hard to believe). And the next paragraph arrives at the point I wanted to make. http://goo.gl/nC8cc (1905 edition) http://goo.gl/jVGTZ (1737 edition) > Now as for flesh, every yeere in the Autumne, Winter drawing nigh ; > the Bashaw causeth the Provision of Basturma [So called because the > flesh is pressed and made flat.] to be made for the Kings Kitchins ; > and they make it of Kowes great with Calfe, for then say they, the > flesh is most tender and savourie : they use it in the same manner as > Christians use Swines flesh, for they make Puddings and Sauceages of > it, and the rest they boyle and dresse after other fashions. > This sort of dryed flesh, after that it is sufficiently dryed with > hanging a moneth or better in a Roome, and little or no Salt used > about it, will last the whole yeare, and eate very savourly : and it > is in such use amongst the Turkes, that there is scarce a house of any > fashion or account, but doth yeerely make provision of it, and it is > held a very thriftie and sparing course ; but they doe not all make > their Basturma of Kowes great with Calfe, for there are some which > love the other better, which is made of Oxen and Bullocks ; and they > can buy it farre cheaper. The term /Basturma/ is used in Armenian, Russian and possibly in Arabic (I can only suppose the latter and wish someone would correct me if that's wrong--Wiki tells me it's "basterma"). In fact, I just had some basturma earlier this week (Armenian, but from Lebanon). Most versions are dried thick cuts of beef, rolled in combinations of spices that include cumin and fenugreek--the emphasis being on /dried/. The meat is cured but not smoked--obviously it needs a bit of preservation prior to drying. I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. But, obviously, it's the same kind of dry salted beef that's taken as a precursor to pastrami in the etymology note on the latter. > 1831 A. N. Groves /Jrnl./ 12 Sept. in /Jrnl. Resid. Bagdad/ (1832) 250 > We made him some sausages, called in this country /pastourma/. > 1834 J. von Hammer tr. Ç. Evilyá /Narr. Trav./ I. ii. xxx. 148 The > Merchants of dried salted beef (Tajirání Pasdirma) ... cry to the > beholders, 'Take Pasdirma.' > 1853 /Househ. Words/ 17 Dec. 374/1 The common articles of food [in > Varna] are /pastruma/, that is to say, the meat of oxen or buffaloes > salted and dried in the sun. > 1887 M. Thorpe tr. E. de Laveleye /Balkan Penins./ xii. 352 They ... > dry the meat, which is, as pastrama, ... their favourite dish. A slight antedating of this cluster: http://goo.gl/f8jBl Travels in Turkey, Egypt, Nubia and Palestine: in 1824, 1825, 1826, and 1827. Volume 2. By Richard Robert Madden. London: 1829 Letter 34. To the Rev. D. M'Pherson. Damietta, July 1, 1827. p. 218 > The great objection of Dr. Clarke to Bishop Patrick's opinion of the > impossibility of drying quails in the sun, without inducing > putrefaction, is the evidence of Maillet, that fish is so dried in > Egypt without salt. The fish I saw cured on the lake Menzalè was first > sprinkled with brine, and then dried in the sun; and that sort of > /hung beef /which the Turks call /pasturma, /and which is said to be > cured by simply drying it in the sun, is likewise sprinkled with salt. The issue of Household Words cited above is in GB ( http://goo.gl/TUHKd ). The rest of the sources, save for the earliest, are not particularly interesting. A number of British publication--both independent magazines and government papers--for some reason offer discussion of contents of ships departing "Turkish" ports of Ibraila (Wallachia), Galatz (Romania/Moldavia), Varna (Bulgaria), etc., and one of the items making regular appearances is pastroma. The same volume may give different names to the same item. http://goo.gl/1hjsw Report on the Commerce of the Ports of New Russia, Moldavia, and Wallachia, Made to the Russian Government, in 1835. By Julius de Hagemeister [IUriĭ Gagemeĭster]. London: 1836 Chapter 3. Export Trade. XIII. Salted Meat. p. 153 > In the two principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, beef is dried, > and it is sold under the name of Pastrama; under this preparation, it > is very much sought after in the country itself, and in Turkey. In > 1832, 15,000 poods of it were shipped from Galatz. http://goo.gl/f6P9u Tables of the Revenue, Population, Commerce, &c. of the United Kingdom, and Its Dependencies. Supplement to Part XIV. Statements Relating to Foreign Countries. London: 1849 p. 343 Turkey. Statement of the Quantities of the various Articles Imported and Exported at the Port of Samsoon in the Year 1842 > ... > Beef, Preserved Bales 806 p. 344 Turkey. ... Samsoon ... 1844 > ... > Preserved Beef Bales 2,123 p. 348-9 Moldavia. Statement of the Number of Vessels, belonging to various Nations, which Departed from the Port of Galat, with the Nature of their Cargoes, in the Year 1845 > Preserved Beef p. 350 Moldavia. Statement of the Quantities, Value and Average Prices of the several Articles Imported and Exported at the Port of Galatz, in the Year 1843 > ... > Beef, Jerked (Pastromah) Cwts. £0s10 221 £110 p. 351 Moldavia. ... Exported ... 1845 > Beef, Preserved Cases 31,654 £5,198 p. 353 Wallachia. Statement of the Number of Vessels, belonging to various Nations, which Departed from the Port of Ibraila, with the Nature of their Cargoes, in the Year 1843 > ... Jerked Beef, 151 Bales ... etc. p. 354 Wallachia. ... 1845 > Pastroma, 155 Cwts. etc. > Jerked Beef, 1,539 Cwts. p. 355 ... 1843. Exported > Beef, Jerked (Pastromah) Cwts. £0s10 482 £241 p. 356 ... Exported ... 1844 > Jerked Beef Cwts. 129 £60 A couple of other items that are mentioned among the exports but apparently not listed in the OED (and with which I am familiar through buying and using them with some regularity): Cascaval (a.k.a. kashkaval--a type of sharp sheeps milk cheese, with different varieties identified with Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Turkey and Hungary, but the name apparently derived from Sicilian "caciocavallo") Mahlep (a.k.a. mahleb, mahlab, mahlepi--kernels of cherrystones with flavor resembling bitter almonds, used in baking from Greece through the Middle East) Both have detailed coverage in Wiki. There is a version of shyshlyk (shahshlyk==shishkebab) that also goes by the name of basturma--in this case, the meat is not dried, but it is spiced and cured prior to grilling. But, like the typical basturma, it is beef (kebabs from the corresponding region are usually lamb, which might be one reason for the name "basturma"). The item was defined fairly regularly in encyclopedias, although sometimes under different names. http://goo.gl/URdtZ The Dictionary of Trade Products, Manufacturing, and Technical Terms: With a Definition of Moneys, Weights, and Measures, of All Countries. By Peter Lund Simmonds. London: 1858 p. 277/2 > Pastoormah, Pasturma, Pastrama, beef preserved in Asia Minor, with garlic and pepper, and dried in the sun for winter food. It is prepared in Wallachia and Moldavia, and largely shipped from Varna. Besides providing all Anatolia, Aleppo, and Damascus, 6000 cwt. or more is yearly sent from Kaissariah to Constantinople. > Pasturma. See Pastoormah. On the history of pastrami, the note continues. > Pastrami was apparently first sold in the U.S. in a Jewish > delicatessen /c/1887. The Yiddish word is also occas. found in an > English context in the forms /pastroma/ and /pastrama/ . Compare: > 1914 /N.Y. Times/ 21 Aug. 5 From the local market came the complaint > of the Kosher delicatessen men that the manufacturers had put up > prices. Pastrama, they said, had been raised from 36 to 42 cents a pound. Of course, there is some dispute about this. Katz Deli is among the claimants to the original pastrami name in the US, but it did not open until 1888. Another deli that opened in 1887 also claimed the original pastroma recipe. Wiki points out that Romanian Jews were already in NYC as early as 1872. The terminology for pastrami/pastrama/pastroma as a deli meat item entered US English around that time. The meaning was obviously somewhat different from the Romanian/Turkish term that was cited in British documents in mid-century. http://goo.gl/UAHrz Monthly Bulletin of the Dairy and Food Division of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Volume 3, No. 5. Harrisburgh: June 15, 1905 Analyses of Food for Month of June, 1905--Continued. p. 47 > What sold For. Marks on the Package. Chemist's Statement of the Result of Analysis > Pastroma (meat) May 4, 1905. No case. Given that the item appears next to Bologna, Lebanon bologna, Summer bologna, and minced ham, I presume that this is the new meaning (pastrami) and not the old one (basturma). http://goo.gl/u5wSf Annual Report of the Dept. of Health of the City of New York. 1907 Work Performed at the Chemical Laboratory. p. 105 > Number of pastrama 3 Meats Canned, Preserved, Etc. p. 589 > 26365 Pastrama D. Moskowitz, No. 49 Cannon Street Free from borax and sulfites > 26419 Pastrama M. Zimmerman & Co., No. 318 East Houston Street Free from borax and sulfites There can be no doubt about this one. More from the etymology note. > The extended use, while later in English, is the original meaning of > the Romanian and Turkish words; in the Balkans, pastrami has always > been made of any of a number of pressed and preserved meats, rather > than being limited specifically to beef. My initial assumption was that the Jewish version--being Kosher--might have been limited to beef. Lamb was simply not that popular in Romania and only slightly more popular in Bulgaria. But, apparently, the original pastrame was made from goose breast, only to have reverted to beef brisket in New York City. Still, given that most supplies came from the East Balkan ports, at least in the 19th century, most pastroma/basturma likely was made from beef. But it gets better still! http://goo.gl/5vmJP The Nineteenth Century. Volume 12 (68). October 1882 Roumanian Peasants and Their Songs. By C. F. Keary. p. 575 > Thus is the Roumanian peasant a king within his domain, for he owes > his land to no one. ... Meat he rarely eats. The staff of life with > him is a concoction from maize and water, a sort of polenta, in fact, > which he calls /mamaliga. /This is eaten as bread with butter, cheese, > or a few olives. Sometimes he adds to this a kind of kippered fish > called /pastrama./ This is interesting for two reasons. First, we have a /fish/ pastrama. "Kippered" seems to be quite an appropriate description, as it is cured, pressed and dried. But the other item is interesting as well--at least from the point of view of culinary history. "Mamalyga" is the Russian/Ukrainian/Moldavian--and, apparently, Romanian--version of hominy and grits. It refers both to the whole grain and chipped version. If fish is not your thing, you can try camel. http://goo.gl/ynjAv Travels in Crete. Volume 1. By Robert Pashley. Cambridge: 1837 Chapter 6. February 19. p. 96 > It being Wednesday, the Greeks eat only boiled herbs and bread, to > which was added, for us, salt-fish, eggs, and a preparation of camel's > flesh, called pástruma, of which I cannot speak very highly. Still, beef was the dominant meat. http://goo.gl/JShFE Bible Lands: Their Modern Customs and Manners Illustrative of Scripture. By Henry John Van-Lennep. New York City: 1875 p. 175 > In the greater part of Asia Minor it is customary for every family, in > the autumn, to buy a young bullock or a cow, which is killed, the > flesh made into sausages, or salted, pressed, and then, well seasoned > with a preparation of pounded garlic, strong spices, eta, it is dried > and forms the essential winter provision of /pasturma. /This is also > an important item of exportation to other parts of the East, the most > highly esteemed quality being prepared at Cæsarea, in Asia Minor. http://goo.gl/8Acmd Central Europe. By Josef Franz Maria Partsch. New York: 1903 Chapter 11. Economic Geography. p. 169 > The life of the half-savage wandering shepherds, whose wants are > nearly all supplied by their flocks, which yield them milk, cheese, > /pastürma /or /postrame /(hard pressed meat dried in the sun and cut > into strips), skins, leather, and wool, lingers on into the present > like a remnant of the Middle Ages. Finally, concerning the definition: > orig. U.S. > // > Highly seasoned smoked beef, usually served in thin slices; (as a > count noun) a serving of this, esp. as a filling in a sandwich. Later > also in extended use: other meat or fish prepared in a similar manner. There is one important step missing from the description. The meat is indeed cured in brine, seasoned--highly seasoned, similarly to basturma--then dried, smoked and /steamed/. Steaming is an essential part of the preparation--more so than smoking--because it softens the meat and turns it into a deli product, suitable for immediate consumption. And it is this missing step that links pastrami to basturma--the latter lacking the steaming process. In fact, smoking may not be a differential factor. http://goo.gl/htlh8 The Mussulman. Volume 2. By Richard Robert Madden. London: 1830 p. 80-1 > A couple of oars and a topsail were thrown into the little boat; a > small keg of water, and some flakes of smoke-dried meat, called > pasturma, a trunk, a compass, and a coil of rope, were also let down; > and without any ceremony of leave-taking, Mourad and his friend the > Greek committed themselves to the care of Providence, in a crazy bark, > in the midst of the wide ocean. It's also interesting that the dry meat is most commonly beef, although other meats and even fish can be prepared in the same manner. Yet, the derivative pastrami evolved from goose and duck breasts to beef (in order to minimize the cost of the meat and to keep it Kosher), only to spread out to turkey, other meats and, once again, fish (however, these products do not reproduce the entire preparation process--instead, they rely on the heavy spicing to resemble the flavor, if no the texture of the traditional beef pastrami. One thing I don't want to speculate on is the origin of the term. I've spotted some suggestions that it originated in Greek, in Romanian and even Armenian, yet, given that all these territories had been under Turkish control for generations, the original determination that the term is Turkish seems to be reasonable. In fact, one of the Asiatic Society publications pointed to the name "basturma" given to apparently drying shed in "East Turkestan". VS-) On 1/24/2012 10:44 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > After sending this e-mail, I notice that the wonderful website barrypopik.c= > om has an April 2, 1909 citation with the spelling _pastroma_. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:37 PM > To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Cc:jester at panix.com;bapopik at aol.com > Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" > > > pastrami (OED 1914) > > > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) M= > argolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues= > . > > > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 26 15:46:47 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:46:47 -0600 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201252315.q0PJdiHF012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 5:15 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel Goldwyn > 1943) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel > Goldwyn > 1943) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > If you have a message, call Western Union. > If you've got a message, send a telegram. > > The lines above are classic rebuffs delivered by hardheaded Hollywood > producers to idealistic writers who have created didactic scripts for > plays or movies. The words have been attributed to a variety of people > and many of them were not Hollywood producers. > > The Quote Verifier gives this list: Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Humphrey > Bogart, Marlon Brando, Dorothy Parker, George S. Kaufman, Ernest > Hemingway, George Bernard Shaw, and Samuel Goldwyn. > > The Yale Book of Quotations has a 1954 cite with an attribution to > Moss Hart. Barry Popik gives a 1953 cite for Moss Hart. Building on > this valuable work I've been able to push the date back a bit for this > type of saying. > > Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel > Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, > Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) > [Begin excerpt] > NEW YORK, April 16.-Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for > Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a > wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal > for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . > . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it > has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the > comedy. Messages are for Western Union." > [End Excerpt] > Slight antedating: NY Post, April 13, 1943 p 26 col 4 Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 16:50:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:50:07 -0500 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201261547.q0Q64HhC025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole wrote >> Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel >> Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, >> Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) >> [Begin excerpt] >> NEW YORK, April 16.-Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for >> Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a >> wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal >> for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . >> . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it >> has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the >> comedy. Messages are for Western Union." >> [End Excerpt] Bill Mullins wrote: > Slight antedating: > > NY Post, April 13, 1943 p 26 col 4 Great work! Many thanks, Bill, for finding an earlier publication date for the Leonard Lyons column with the Goldwyn anecdote. Best, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 17:02:46 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:02:46 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201261322.q0Q64HVA025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:01 AM, wrote: > Maybe he WAS bringing her to dinner, not taking her to dinner. That is, maybe he was invited and given a choice of who his partner could be, understanding that the invitation was extended to him and whomever he chose to accompany him. Yes, but that "should," as it were, be "only," so to speak, from the point of view of the hostess Well, IAC, it probably doesn't matter, anyway, as far as communication, which is the whole purpose of language. Gnome sane? ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 18:05:09 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:05:09 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <9B9A7FDF-B35C-459D-9CFE-98BF98A179CD@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/25/2012 08:41 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > >> Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. > >> Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're > >> certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. > > > > Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for > > the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from > > "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. > > >as in "I'm not speaking azure pal, I'm speaking azure dad"? Larry has found a minimal pair! ... for me. To be contrasted with "I'm not speaking as your pal/dad". I think -- if I'm not biasing myself. Joel >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 18:10:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <4F2156B7.4030302@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/26/2012 08:35 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. Victor, where do you document a 1602 date? I didn't see it in your message. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 18:34:01 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:34:01 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201260610.q0Q61W8F013083@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). Those of a certain age may recall the song, "Sincerely," by - originally - the R&B group, The Moonglows. IAC, before "Sincerely" crossed over, the Moonglows' first, in-group hit was the song, "I Was Wrong." This work contains the verse. The wine That I drank It must have _Went_ to my head For its time, this was the equivalent of the instance from last night: Well, of course, that's the way we talk, but there's no point in going *public" with it! Why wasn't that "corrected"? This is not a blues song! As far as Mencken et al., their attitude was entirely proper! The whiye man, as the natural custodian of the language, must hold himself to a higher standard! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 26 18:43:09 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:43:09 -0800 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201261834.q0Q64HvO025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). > > [R&B example] For its time, this was the equivalent of the instance from last night: > Well, of course, that's the way we talk, but there's no point in going > *public" with it! Why wasn't that "corrected"? This is not a blues > song! > > As far as Mencken et al., their attitude was entirely proper! The literature on PST for PSP merely describes the phenomenon as a widespread AmE non-standardism, and doesn't deplore it. > > The white man, as the natural custodian of the language, must hold > himself to a higher standard! PST for PSP is *very very* far from being an exclusively black thing. your sarcasm is misplaced. arnold > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 18:48:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:48:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201261810.q0Q61tnY014831@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The source is the same as the OED quote, which is dated as 1601 diary, published in 1625. I believe that the 1601 dating is a bit off and the actual diary date is 1602. But the main point is that it is the same source. I cited two GB locations--for the 1737 and 1905 editions. But the text is the same--it was not changed from the 1600s original. VS-) On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/26/2012 08:35 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. > > Victor, where do you document a 1602 date? I didn't see it in your > message. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 01:39:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:39:07 -0500 Subject: Logomachy: fracking, frac, fraccing, fracktivists, hydraulic fracturing Message-ID: The Associated Press has an article about the logomachy concerning "fracking". Title: No energy industry backing for the word 'fracking' By JONATHAN FAHEY - 2 hrs 59 mins ago http://news.yahoo.com/no-energy-industry-backing-word-fracking-222649620.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 02:06:59 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:06:59 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel Message-ID: Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, reunderstood.) Well, in his commentary following yet another classic four-set match between Federer and Nadal in the Australian Open semis this morning, ESPN announcer Chris Fowler summarizes the outcome to fellow commentator Patrick McEnroe (who had just observed that Nadal always seems to have the answers against Federer "when they go out there one-on-one"): "Yes, [Federer's] winning streak coming in at 4, but as you said, all of that's out the window when it's hombre et hombre on the court: Nadal through in four to the final". So "mano a mano" > "mano y mano" > "man and man" > "hombre et hombre" Yes, that's "hombre et hombre": [ambreEDambre], with flapped [D] as in "et al." Hard to believe, perhaps, but I figure Fowler provided the (partial) Spanish translation in honor of the Mallorcan Nadal, and then, suddenly realizing that Nadal's native language is Catalan rather than Spanish but not knowing the Catalan for "and", helpfully offered the Latin conjunction. LH ==================== *e.g., from my files: Both shows [Prime Time Live and 20/20] had been going mano-a-mano, or rather womano-a-womano, competing for the same stories and interviews. (Surely you recall all those colorful Diane Sawyer-vs.-Barbara Walters tales.) Multi-sport races were designed to be Mano y Mano - man against man - with no distinct advantage. Or for those who have two parts to their bathing suits - that might be womano y womano. I'll have to check my Spanish dictionary. "We channelled the spirits of the rock-and-roll gods as we launched into a vicious contest of dueling guitars. Two virtuosos mano-a-mano. Well, mano-a-kiddo." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 27 02:09:16 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:09:16 -0800 Subject: "fracking" Message-ID: For anybody on the list who would like to start a barfight... (I am not taking sides. There are serious environmental problems with fracking; whether the natural gas industry will overcome these problems I cannot predict.) from http://channels.isp.netscape.com/pf/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/1001/20120126/1739.htm No energy industry backing for the word 'fracking' JONATHAN FAHEY AP Energy Writer NEW YORK (AP) — A different kind of F-word is stirring a linguistic and political debate as controversial as what it defines. The word is "fracking" — as in hydraulic fracturing, a technique long used by the oil and gas industry to free oil and gas from rock. It's not in the dictionary, the industry hates it, and President Barack Obama didn't use it in his State of the Union speech — even as he praised federal subsidies for it. The word sounds nasty, and environmental advocates have been able to use it to generate opposition — and revulsion — to what they say is a nasty process that threatens water supplies. "It obviously calls to mind other less socially polite terms, and folks have been able to take advantage of that," said Kate Sinding, a senior attorney at the Natural Resources Defense Council who works on drilling issues. One of the chants at an anti-drilling rally in Albany earlier this month was "No fracking way!" Industry executives argue that the word is deliberately misspelled by environmental activists and that it has become a slur that should not be used by media outlets that strive for objectivity. "It's a co-opted word and a co-opted spelling used to make it look as offensive as people can try to make it look," said Michael Kehs, vice president for Strategic Affairs at Chesapeake Energy, the nation's second-largest natural gas producer. To the surviving humans of the sci-fi TV series "Battlestar Galactica," it has nothing to do with oil and gas. It is used as a substitute for the very down-to-Earth curse word. Michael Weiss, a professor of linguistics at Cornell University, says the word originated as simple industry jargon, but has taken on a negative meaning over time — much like the word "silly" once meant "holy." But "frack" also happens to sound like "smack" and "whack," with more violent connotations. "When you hear the word 'fracking,' what lights up your brain is the profanity," says Deborah Mitchell, who teaches marketing at the University of Wisconsin's School of Business. "Negative things come to mind." Obama did not use the word in his State of the Union address Tuesday night, when he said his administration will help ensure natural gas will be developed safely, suggesting it would support 600,000 jobs by the end of the decade. In hydraulic fracturing, millions of gallons of water, sand and chemicals are pumped into wells to break up underground rock formations and create escape routes for the oil and gas. In recent years, the industry has learned to combine the practice with the ability to drill horizontally into beds of shale, layers of fine-grained rock that in some cases have trapped ancient organic matter that has cooked into oil and gas. By doing so, drillers have unlocked natural gas deposits across the East, South and Midwest that are large enough to supply the U.S. for decades. Natural gas prices have dipped to decade-low levels, reducing customer bills and prompting manufacturers who depend on the fuel to expand operations in the U.S. Environmentalists worry that the fluid could leak into water supplies from cracked casings in wells. They are also concerned that wastewater from the process could contaminate water supplies if not properly treated or disposed of. And they worry the method allows too much methane, the main component of natural gas and an extraordinarily potent greenhouse gas, to escape. Some want to ban the practice altogether, while others want tighter regulations. The Environmental Protection Agency is studying the issue and may propose federal regulations. The industry prefers that states regulate the process. Some states have banned it. A New York proposal to lift its ban drew about 40,000 public comments — an unprecedented total — inspired in part by slogans such as "Don't Frack With New York." The drilling industry has generally spelled the word without a "K," using terms like "frac job" or "frac fluid." Energy historian Daniel Yergin spells it "fraccing" in his book, "The Quest: Energy, Security and the Remaking of the Modern World." The glossary maintained by the oilfield services company Schlumberger includes only "frac" and "hydraulic fracturing." The spelling of "fracking" began appearing in the media and in oil and gas company materials long before the process became controversial. It first was used in an Associated Press story in 1981. That same year, an oil and gas company called Velvet Exploration, based in British Columbia, issued a press release that detailed its plans to complete "fracking" a well. The word was used in trade journals throughout the 1980s. In 1990, Commerce Secretary Robert Mosbacher announced U.S. oil engineers would travel to the Soviet Union to share drilling technology, including fracking. The word does not appear in The Associated Press Stylebook, a guide for news organizations. David Minthorn, deputy standards editor at the AP, says there are tentative plans to include an entry in the 2012 edition. He said the current standard is to avoid using the word except in direct quotes, and to instead use "hydraulic fracturing." That won't stop activists — sometimes called "fracktivists" — from repeating the word as often as possible. "It was created by the industry, and the industry is going to have to live with it," says the NRDC's Sinding. Dave McCurdy, CEO of the American Gas Association, agrees, much to his dismay: "It's Madison Avenue hell," he says. ___ Jonathan Fahey can be reached at http://twitter.com/JonathanFahey. _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 27 02:13:09 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:13:09 -0800 Subject: a crash blossom Message-ID: "Romney, Gingrich exchange barbs on immigration" which suggests to me that they were trading samples of the barbs on the barb wire to be used to seal our borders. - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 27 02:33:27 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:33:27 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270207.q0QKDa4r013083@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the > reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it > into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y > mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and > "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the > expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, > reunderstood.) I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the reanalysis in the notes: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 03:38:52 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:38:52 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the >> reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it >> into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y >> mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and >> "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the >> expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, >> reunderstood.) > > I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the > reanalysis in the notes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ > Oops, my mistake. I search under "mano a mano", "mano-a-mano", and "mano", and pulled up nothing. Is there a way to access the ECDB alphabetically? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 27 03:41:25 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:41:25 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270339.q0QLDdVq025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>> Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the >>> reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it >>> into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y >>> mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and >>> "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the >>> expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, >>> reunderstood.) >> >> I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the >> reanalysis in the notes: >> >> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ >> > Oops, my mistake. I search under "mano a mano", "mano-a-mano", and > "mano", and pulled up nothing. Is there a way to access the ECDB > alphabetically? Click on "browse eggcorns" on the right, which takes you to: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 04:12:02 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:12:02 -0500 Subject: NS = native speaker In-Reply-To: <201201260401.q0PMAP67009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: David, It's found fairly widely in the ESL research literature, along with NNS for Non-Native Speaker. Herb On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:01 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: NS = native speaker > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Has anybody here see or heard this abbreviation used? I've found it in one > blog and the Kashmir Journal of Language Research. > > > > Regards, > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 06:57:24 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:57:24 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260828.q0Q64HIW025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > > VS-) > > PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > > Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > > Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > "English"? > > On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 14:33:06 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:33:06 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, not to someone who luges. LH > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? >> >> VS-) >> >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. >> >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). >> >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not >> "English"? >> >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 27 15:37:42 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:37:42 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201271433.q0R5RYMi017360@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE And one who spits mucus would be a loogier? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Laurence Horn > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:33 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com > "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger > > Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, > not to someone who luges. > > LH > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------------- > ---- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > ---- > >> > >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > >> > >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > >> > >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > >> "English"? > >> > >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell > the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more > likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 17:52:26 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:52:26 +0800 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270351.q0QLDdW4025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: (a) Chapman 1986 slang dict, p.273a cites mano a mano (a hand-to-hand fight or duel; Hemingway, bullfighting) from the NY Times, the medial _a_ having a grave accent over it, clearly a hypergallicism. (b) mano (hand) in Spanish is feminine gender. Lat. manus (hand; a band of men; feminine u-stem); It., Sp. la mano; Pg. a ma~o; Fr. la main. Such arcane joy from a grammatical quirk behind such a macho construction! (c) If Latino Latina and Filipino Filipina, then mano-a-mano *mana-a-mana, but the first Google hit is for the Muppets(apostrophe) rendition of Manamana. (d) Back in my SRJC, CA days 1970-71, my Spanish teacher once commented that he would use Spanish mano in the same way as English man (slang expletive indicating excitement or to draw attention). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 17:56:47 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:56:47 +0800 Subject: NS = native speaker In-Reply-To: <201201270412.q0QLDdWC025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NSE = native speaker of English (common) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 19:04:58 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:04:58 -0500 Subject: Quote: In the future everyone will be famous (or anonymous) for 15 minutes Message-ID: The Yale Book of Quotations, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations and some other references list the following version of Andy Warhol's well-known comment about transitory fame: In the future everybody will be world famous for fifteen minutes. The cite given in YBQ is for a 1968 "exhibition catalogue, Moderna Museet, Stockholm, Sweden". Oxford gives the same cite: "volume released to mark his exhibition in Stockholm, February–March, 1968". There is evidence that Warhol may have used a version in 1967 without the modifier "world". Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html [Begin excerpt] In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only become available to the man in the street, but are virtually unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." [End excerpt] The Time version of the Warhol saying was further disseminated in an Art magazine in 1967. Cite: 1967 November, Art Scene, "Jan van der Marck: The Young Man Who . . ." by Dennis Stone, Page 11, Volume 1, Art Scene Co., Chicago, Illinois. (Verified on paper; Thanks to the librarians at the Lucille Caudill Little Fine Arts Library at the University of Kentucky) [Begin excerpt] But showmanship is the operative word. It is the essential ingredient if the Contemporary is to compete for national attention, and you'd better believe that the Museum and its Director will be competing. If the time approaches, as Warhol was quoted in Time as having predicted, when every artist will be famous for 15 minutes, this development pre-supposes the establishment of a network of Instant Fame Shops. [End excerpt] On the Quote Investigator website I examined a variant statement that was used in an artwork by Banksy. If a list member knows how I could find out when the Banksy piece was created or when it was first displayed I would appreciate your help. Apparently it was shown in Los Angeles by September 15, 2006. In the Future Everyone Will Be Anonymous for Fifteen Minutes http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/01/27/anonymous-fifteen/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 23:48:33 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:48:33 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201271433.q0R5RYMi017360@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess he could have detailed the word "luger" (as someone who luges?) a little "cleaner" (something that cleans?) so I could better (someone who bets?) focus on my reply a little "closer" (someone who closes?). "Luger" would be ~luezher (one who luges ~luzhiz) Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger > > Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, not to someone who luges. > > LH > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > >> > >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > >> > >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > >> "English"? > >> > >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 07:06:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:30 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese Message-ID: Since I don't have the full document, I don't know if the complete quote would have some redeeming features, but I don't see how it could. http://goo.gl/upFsI > An investigation by the New York Department of Health found "no > evidence of environmental or infection as the cause of the girls' > illness," according to department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond. "The > school is served by a public water system. ... An environmental > exposure would affect many people." In case there is any doubt, my concern is over the serialization of "environmental or infection", particularly without an underlying NP for "environmental". My guess is that the author either started out with "environmental cause" and expanded the sentence later or simply assumed that "environmental" was a modifier for "cause" in its present form. The former is not particularly interesting as a source of error--mere inattention--but the latter is. Another possibility is a straight omission of "exposure"--as it appears in the last sentence. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 13:56:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:56:59 -0500 Subject: Szechuan pepper Message-ID: Actually, this comment is about more than just "Szechuan pepper". First, "Szechuan" is the correction preferred by the Windows 7 built-in spell-checker. The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese /Si-chua-n/", but no such allowances are made for spelling forms, with not a single example listing the Sichuan form. Yet Sichuan is the preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. Another oddity is the fact that the Szechuan entry is for noun only, with the usual qualifier "used attrib." Yet, Szechuanese is listed both as adjective and noun, with the noun covering the "dialect" and the residents of Szechuan. But consider one of the examples under adj.: > 1980 E. Behr /Getting Even/ vii. 89 There was the smell of real > Szechuanese cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. Now, just over 30 years later (at least, in the US), this is more like to appear as > There was the smell of real Szechuan cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. Following the OED convention, this case is merely "attrib.", despite appearance to the contrary. In fact, only "Szechuan-style" is considered an adjective, e.g. > 1979 /United States 1980/81/ (Penguin Travel Guides) 179 Honolulu > also has several Mandarin or Szechwan-style Chinese restaurants. But compare all the forms of Szechuan to Taiwan. Both form adjectives with -ese, but Taiwan rarely appears in "attrib." position, while such usage of Szechuan is pervasive (complete with "Sichuan Garden", "Sichuan Cuisine" and "Sichuan Delight" restaurants gracing virtually every major US city). On the other hand, "Taiwanese" is much more common than "Szechuanese". I've had similar concern about other "attrib." entries, but here there may be an additional complication that the -an ending may be re-interpreted as an adjectival suffix. (Compare Moldova/Moldavia --> Moldovan/Moldavian) Yunnan and Hunan suffer similar fates, while Taiwan really becomes an exception rather than the rule. (Note that OED has no entries for Hunan and Yunnan, while the entries for Hunanese and Yunanese are similar to Szechuanese in every way.) I would argue that "Szechuan hotpot" (ma la hotpot) is not "hotpot of Szechuan" but short for "Szechuan-style hotpot", i.e., an adjective. Returning back to the spelling issue, there is no "Szechuan pepper" in the current OED at all. But there are two quotations that mention "Sichuan pepper". Galanga n. > 2000 A. Dalby /Dangerous Tastes/ 78 Five-spice powder ... . In China > itself the typical mixture is likely to include Sichuan pepper and > perhaps fennel or licorice or dried ginger or galanga. Pepper n. 1.b. > 1991 /Chile Pepper/ *5* ii. 45 The brown or black seeds are also > marketed under the name 'Sichuan pepper' or 'Chinese pepper' and are > highly aromatic with hints of citrus. This is not particularly surprising, as "Sichuan pepper" is one of the latest "in" spices (since the FDA ban on its Chinese imports had been lifted in 2005) and usually occurs with that particular spelling (at least, in the US--can't really speak for the rest of the world). But this is further complicated by frequent attempts to anglicize such things. Virtually every package of Sichuan pepper that is imported from China is /not/ labeled as Sichuan pepper, but instead reads "Prickly ash". Right now I am looking at a package of spices from Chuanzhen Industry Co. whose English label reads "Green Prickly Ash". Prickly ash does appear under prickly adj. Special Uses S2. > prickly ash n. any of various North American prickly shrubs or trees: > /spec./ /(a) /a shrub with spiny bark, the devil's walking stick, > /Aralia spinosa/ (family /Araliaceae/); /(b) /any of several spiny or > prickly pinnate-leaved shrubs or trees of the genus /Zanthoxylum/ > (family /Rutaceae/), /esp./ either of two shrubs whose aromatic bark > is used medicinally, the toothache tree, /Z. americanum/ and the > Hercules' club /Z. clava-herculis/. It is interesting that only North American varieties are mentioned for both (a) and (b) and only the use of the aromatic bark enters into the the picture (correctly identifying it as the "toothache tree"). But Wiki description of Sichuan pepper expands on this a bit. > Sichuan pepper (or Szechuan pepper) is the outer pod of the tiny fruit > of a number of species in the genus /Zanthoxylum/ (most commonly /Z. > piperitum/, /Z. simulans/, and /Z. schinifolium/), widely grown and > consumed in Asia as a spice. So this is indeed the same genus as the North American prickly ash. This sounds to me like a pretty good reason to expand the definition. The third component of this is the fact that the Japanese version of this spice is usually labeled "sansho" or "sansho pepper" (although other names include "Chinese pepper", "Japanese pepper", "Indonesian lemon pepper", etc.). The Wiki article contains an explanation that the Japanese name is a direct borrowing of one of the Chinese names, which is translated as "mountain pepper", rather than a corruption of Sichuan. Most dictionaries, including the OED, do not have a sansho entry. A brief follow up on the galanga entry mentioned above. The OED has both Galanga and Galangal entries, with the former simply diverting to the latter in definition, while possessing a separate list of forms and a separate etymology note. That seems odd, particularly given one of the quotations under galangal: > 1867 K. L. Dey /Indigenous Drugs India/ 11 The tubers of Alpinia > Galanga ... are faintly aromatic, pungent, and somewhat bitter, and > are sold by the name of galangal by native druggists. Both forms appear to have coexisted virtually from the start. There is an interesting twist on this, provided by GoogleTranslate. Galangal is "translated" into Dutch as is--perhaps reflecting the supposed translation, but more likely simply reflecting lack of a corresponding entry. Galanga is translated as Galangawortel. But if you shop for galangal powder at a Dutch supermarket, you will not find it under any name even remotely resembling either of these--instead, the label would reflect its Indochinese (or Indonesian) origin--"Laos". ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanga ) Translating into Russian has the opposite effect--"galanga" is unchanged, indicating lack of the corresponding entry, while "galangal" is translated as "kalgan" (long used as a traditional medicinal plant). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 14:44:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:44:05 -0500 Subject: undercrackers Message-ID: Seems to be fairly common and is in UD. http://goo.gl/KbJmU > "I should think so too," she said today. "What's wrong with a few > pictures of pretty girls lounging around in their undercrackers. OED has zilch, and oxforddictionaries.com is a bit over-restrictive: > /British/ /informal/ > men’s underpants. Collins and Dictionary.com get it right, though. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 15:03:46 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:03:46 -0500 Subject: obiticide Message-ID: http://goo.gl/5oqex > The Poynter Institute's Craig Silverman has a term to describe it, > "obiticide," which he defines as premature death by media. Didn't someone ask about this earlier? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 15:07:01 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:07:01 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201280706.q0S5SunM029569@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is what Reuters says: “The Le Roy school is safe,” Hammond said. “The environment or an infection is not the cause of the students’ tics. There are many causes of tics-like symptoms.” http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/21/stress-blamed-for-student-tics-at-new-york-school/ DanG On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: an odd example of legalese > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Since I don't have the full document, I don't know if the complete quote > would have some redeeming features, but I don't see how it could. > > http://goo.gl/upFsI > > An investigation by the New York Department of Health found "no > > evidence of environmental or infection as the cause of the girls' > > illness," according to department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond. "The > > school is served by a public water system. ... An environmental > > exposure would affect many people." > > In case there is any doubt, my concern is over the serialization of > "environmental or infection", particularly without an underlying NP for > "environmental". My guess is that the author either started out with > "environmental cause" and expanded the sentence later or simply assumed > that "environmental" was a modifier for "cause" in its present form. The > former is not particularly interesting as a source of error--mere > inattention--but the latter is. Another possibility is a straight > omission of "exposure"--as it appears in the last sentence. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Jan 28 15:53:34 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:53:34 -0500 Subject: Some of you like this sort of thing Message-ID: A profile in today's (Saturday's) Times on the singer Paul Plishka, who is retiring after a long career at the Metropolitan Opera. It seems that someone who listened to the radio broadcasts of the Met thought that his parents had been such sports fans that they had named him "Baseball". She was mishearing the way his name was called as the cast of characters was run down. The announcer would say some character would be sung by bass Paul Plishka. NY Times, January 28, 2012, A section, p. 21, col. 1 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 28 16:12:45 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:12:45 +0000 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? Message-ID: As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html [Begin excerpt] In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only become available to the man in the street, but are virtually unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." [End excerpt] **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. *** http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:15:15 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:15:15 +0000 Subject: Szechuan pepper In-Reply-To: <201201281357.q0S8tZiS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thefreedictionary.com has 3 clickable pronunciations of the word "Szechuan" US flag = ~Sechwun UK flag = ~Zekwin ("sz" spoken like an ~s that changes to a ~z) speaker icon = ~Sechwwaan (~ww starts stressed syllable) But it also has "Sichuan" US flag ~Sichwaan UK flag ~Sichwaan icon shows "Szechuan" ~Sechwwaan >... Sichuan is the > preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered > today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, > so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. > The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only > listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese > /Si-chua-n/", Scanning youtube.com for "Szechuan" you more often find "Sichuan" pronounced as it looks ~Sichwaan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHw-r3z-1p4 Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:56:59 -0500 > From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Szechuan pepper > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Szechuan pepper > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Actually, this comment is about more than just "Szechuan pepper". First, > "Szechuan" is the correction preferred by the Windows 7 built-in > spell-checker. The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only > listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese > /Si-chua-n/", but no such allowances are made for spelling forms, with > not a single example listing the Sichuan form. Yet Sichuan is the > preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered > today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, > so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. > > Another oddity is the fact that the Szechuan entry is for noun only, > with the usual qualifier "used attrib." Yet, Szechuanese is listed both > as adjective and noun, with the noun covering the "dialect" and the > residents of Szechuan. > > But consider one of the examples under adj.: > > > 1980 E. Behr /Getting Even/ vii. 89 There was the smell of real > > Szechuanese cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. > > Now, just over 30 years later (at least, in the US), this is more like > to appear as > > > There was the smell of real Szechuan cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. > > Following the OED convention, this case is merely "attrib.", despite > appearance to the contrary. In fact, only "Szechuan-style" is considered > an adjective, e.g. > > > 1979 /United States 1980/81/ (Penguin Travel Guides) 179 Honolulu > > also has several Mandarin or Szechwan-style Chinese restaurants. > > But compare all the forms of Szechuan to Taiwan. Both form adjectives > with -ese, but Taiwan rarely appears in "attrib." position, while such > usage of Szechuan is pervasive (complete with "Sichuan Garden", "Sichuan > Cuisine" and "Sichuan Delight" restaurants gracing virtually every major > US city). On the other hand, "Taiwanese" is much more common than > "Szechuanese". I've had similar concern about other "attrib." entries, > but here there may be an additional complication that the -an ending may > be re-interpreted as an adjectival suffix. (Compare Moldova/Moldavia --> > Moldovan/Moldavian) Yunnan and Hunan suffer similar fates, while Taiwan > really becomes an exception rather than the rule. (Note that OED has no > entries for Hunan and Yunnan, while the entries for Hunanese and > Yunanese are similar to Szechuanese in every way.) I would argue that > "Szechuan hotpot" (ma la hotpot) is not "hotpot of Szechuan" but short > for "Szechuan-style hotpot", i.e., an adjective. > > Returning back to the spelling issue, there is no "Szechuan pepper" in > the current OED at all. But there are two quotations that mention > "Sichuan pepper". > > Galanga n. > > 2000 A. Dalby /Dangerous Tastes/ 78 Five-spice powder ... . In China > > itself the typical mixture is likely to include Sichuan pepper and > > perhaps fennel or licorice or dried ginger or galanga. > > Pepper n. 1.b. > > 1991 /Chile Pepper/ *5* ii. 45 The brown or black seeds are also > > marketed under the name 'Sichuan pepper' or 'Chinese pepper' and are > > highly aromatic with hints of citrus. > > This is not particularly surprising, as "Sichuan pepper" is one of the > latest "in" spices (since the FDA ban on its Chinese imports had been > lifted in 2005) and usually occurs with that particular spelling (at > least, in the US--can't really speak for the rest of the world). > > But this is further complicated by frequent attempts to anglicize such > things. Virtually every package of Sichuan pepper that is imported from > China is /not/ labeled as Sichuan pepper, but instead reads "Prickly > ash". Right now I am looking at a package of spices from Chuanzhen > Industry Co. whose English label reads "Green Prickly Ash". > > Prickly ash does appear under prickly adj. Special Uses S2. > > > prickly ash n. any of various North American prickly shrubs or trees: > > /spec./ /(a) /a shrub with spiny bark, the devil's walking stick, > > /Aralia spinosa/ (family /Araliaceae/); /(b) /any of several spiny or > > prickly pinnate-leaved shrubs or trees of the genus /Zanthoxylum/ > > (family /Rutaceae/), /esp./ either of two shrubs whose aromatic bark > > is used medicinally, the toothache tree, /Z. americanum/ and the > > Hercules' club /Z. clava-herculis/. > > It is interesting that only North American varieties are mentioned for > both (a) and (b) and only the use of the aromatic bark enters into the > the picture (correctly identifying it as the "toothache tree"). But Wiki > description of Sichuan pepper expands on this a bit. > > > Sichuan pepper (or Szechuan pepper) is the outer pod of the tiny fruit > > of a number of species in the genus /Zanthoxylum/ (most commonly /Z. > > piperitum/, /Z. simulans/, and /Z. schinifolium/), widely grown and > > consumed in Asia as a spice. > > So this is indeed the same genus as the North American prickly ash. This > sounds to me like a pretty good reason to expand the definition. > > The third component of this is the fact that the Japanese version of > this spice is usually labeled "sansho" or "sansho pepper" (although > other names include "Chinese pepper", "Japanese pepper", "Indonesian > lemon pepper", etc.). The Wiki article contains an explanation that the > Japanese name is a direct borrowing of one of the Chinese names, which > is translated as "mountain pepper", rather than a corruption of Sichuan. > Most dictionaries, including the OED, do not have a sansho entry. > > > A brief follow up on the galanga entry mentioned above. The OED has both > Galanga and Galangal entries, with the former simply diverting to the > latter in definition, while possessing a separate list of forms and a > separate etymology note. That seems odd, particularly given one of the > quotations under galangal: > > > 1867 K. L. Dey /Indigenous Drugs India/ 11 The tubers of Alpinia > > Galanga ... are faintly aromatic, pungent, and somewhat bitter, and > > are sold by the name of galangal by native druggists. > > Both forms appear to have coexisted virtually from the start. > > There is an interesting twist on this, provided by GoogleTranslate. > Galangal is "translated" into Dutch as is--perhaps reflecting the > supposed translation, but more likely simply reflecting lack of a > corresponding entry. Galanga is translated as Galangawortel. But if you > shop for galangal powder at a Dutch supermarket, you will not find it > under any name even remotely resembling either of these--instead, the > label would reflect its Indochinese (or Indonesian) origin--"Laos". ( > http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanga ) > > Translating into Russian has the opposite effect--"galanga" is > unchanged, indicating lack of the corresponding entry, while "galangal" > is translated as "kalgan" (long used as a traditional medicinal plant). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org C ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:16:57 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:16:57 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Either way, Warhol's claim is more realistic. JL On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:52:13 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:52:13 +0000 Subject: you do have our backs In-Reply-To: <201201281617.q0SC6QoV013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From Prez O's 1-12-12 speech "...But I will tell you, we’re not shy about saying the one thing we miss is we don’t get to see our friends as much. And as I look around this room, it’s a reminder that you guys do have our backs, have continued to have our backs, and we’re grateful for you and couldn’t be more appreciative of everything that you’ve done." And if you guys stand with me, if you guys have my back as you guys have had my back for all these years, I guarantee you that we are going to win this election. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 17:24:36 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:24:36 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen: Many thanks for that valuable citation. I have access to a library that lists the book in its catalog and will try to check it on paper in the coming weeks. Here is an interesting variant attributed to Warhol in 1968 (apparently). I will try to check this cite on paper, too. Cite: Circa 1968, The culture vultures: or, Whatever became of the emperor's new clothes? by Alan Levy, GB Page 203, G. P. Putnams Sons, New York. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on aper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] And Andy Warhol, who ought to know, purrs to the media that today's turnover in art is only the beginning. "There's going to be a day when no one will be famous for more than a week. Then everyone will have a chance to be famous." [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 28 19:00:43 2012 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:00:43 -0800 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281724.q0S8S8lm011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: I just discovered that a change was made in 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY. Originally, when Dr. Floyd is passing security, the computer asks for his Christian name,which always bugged me. No, the computer asks  for his "full name." brenda lester rhinebeck, ny ________________________________ From: Garson O'Toole To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:      American Dialect Society Poster:      Garson O'Toole Subject:      Re: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody               will be famous"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: Many thanks for that valuable citation. I have access to a library that lists the book in its catalog and will try to check it on paper in the coming weeks. Here is an interesting variant attributed to Warhol in 1968 (apparently). I will try to check this cite on paper, too. Cite: Circa 1968, The culture vultures: or, Whatever became of the emperor's new clothes? by Alan Levy, GB Page 203, G. P. Putnams Sons, New York. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on aper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] And Andy Warhol, who ought to know, purrs to the media that today's turnover in art is only the beginning. "There's going to be a day when no one will be famous for more than a week. Then everyone will have a chance to be famous." [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender:      American Dialect Society > Poster:      Stephen Goranson > Subject:      Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will >              be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 28 20:28:17 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:28:17 -0500 Subject: Quote: In the future everyone will be famous (or anonymous) for 15 minutes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The Yale Book of Quotations, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations and > some other references list the following version of Andy Warhol's > well-known comment about transitory fame: > > In the future everybody will be world famous for fifteen minutes. > > The cite given in YBQ is for a 1968 "exhibition catalogue, Moderna > Museet, Stockholm, Sweden". Oxford gives the same cite: "volume > released to mark his exhibition in Stockholm, February–March, 1968". > > There is evidence that Warhol may have used a version in 1967 without > the modifier "world". > It has become transmuted for many into "Everyone will be famous for fifteen seconds". Many many hits for the truncated version, although not quite as many as the longer original. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 20:38:12 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:38:12 -0500 Subject: not quite WOTY Message-ID: ... or even prefix OTY. If OED is to be believed, the root/prefix crypto- is far more widespread than one would assume from basic reading. One could say it's crypto-popular. ;-) However, in the current presidential cycle (and I mean 2007-2012, incorporating both campaigns), two fairly novel compounds have been created, perhaps even three by the third one has fallen by the wayside. The first two reared up during the 2007 campaign--crypto-Muslim and crypto-Socialist. Of course, this is a somewhat twisted usage--it was only apparent among Obama supporters when criticizing the opposition suffering from yet another version of "X Derangement syndrome" (where X==Obama, with first use noted when X==Clinton). That is, birthers and other assorted Obama critics did not shy away from using the full, non-crypto versions, while those criticizing them pointed to their belief that Obama was a crypto-Socialist and crypto-Muslim. With time, the Socialist label stood on its own when mocking critics, with "crypto-" now being dropped, but "crypto-Muslim" is still in use, but less frequently, as the Obama opponents who believe that he is in fact a Muslim have become less vocal in public. Now, however, another crypto- has arisen in a similar context, although it is in use by more than just supporters. Mitt Romney has always been a big question mark in movement-Conservatism circles, and belief that he's merely a poseur is quite common. While Romney supporters insist that Romney is a "true conservative", some liberal commentators are only too happy to slap the label of "crypto-liberal" on the critisism by Romney's Republican opponents. http://goo.gl/Qb8VW > Given his financial situation, he’s having to substitute sheer > viciousness for ad time. And his Super-PAC’s Florida ads certainly > leave little to the imagination in painting Romney as a flip-flopping > crypto-liberal who loves him some baby-killers The point here is that "crypto" is clearly used here in mockery of both sides in the primary debate. And, if I were to venture a guess, people who used the term had first become comfortable with using "crypto-Muslim", which, in itself, was a parallel to "crypto-Jew" that became the politically correct substitute of "Marrano(s)" when the claim that "Marrano" was a term derived from a word for "pig" became popular. In any case, "crypto-" is much more popular now (or so it seems) than it was five years ago. VS-) PS: I am using "prefix" to describe the position, not the role of the form, fully aware that the terminology is not quite accurate. OED has it as "comb. form", but that strikes me as a kludge. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 23:09:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:09:31 -0500 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: Message-ID: "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know who to confront first!" Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.' " That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the continental United States"? FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a black American is "black." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 02:00:51 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:00:51 -0500 Subject: yeomans Message-ID: Prof. Christine Chism is a UCLA medievalist. On the History Channel documentary "The Real Robin Hood" (2010), Prof. Chism more than once uses "yeomans" as the plural of "yeoman." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 02:44:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:44:21 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I examined the 1995 edition of "Constructivism: Origins and Evolution" on paper and found that the quotation located by Stephen falls within a preface by George Rickey that is dated July 1967. There is a separate preface for the revised edition that is dated December 27, 1994. This suggests that the original preface has been reprinted without modification. Cite: 1995, "Constructivism: Origins and Evolution: Revised Edition" by George Rickey, [Preface to 1967 edition; Author: George Rickey; Location: East Chapham, N.Y.; Date: July 1967], Page x, George Braziller, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] The history of the past is fixed; one has but to find it. The history of the present alters as one watches (sometimes because one watches), and the relation of the actors changes like poles seen from a moving train. Some of the artists I originally chose to study have changed their style and have become, artistically, other people. The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." An original limitation to fifty artists soon seemed too rigid. [End excerpt] I will try to access the 1967 edition in a week or three, but I think the July 1967 date for the passage above is credible. Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 29 04:24:17 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:24:17 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled Message-ID: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the New York Post. Into the database it goes: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 04:51:08 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:51:08 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <201201290434.q0SC6Q5l013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Ben Zimmer > Subject: � � � eggcorn: saddled -> straddled > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html > "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." > > Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples > from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the > New York Post. Into the database it goes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It had a verse, "Let me saddle my old straddle Underneath the western skies" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 05:00:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:00:26 -0500 Subject: ink eraser Message-ID: Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, > used to erase writing in ink or blots. And this: gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php > Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old > tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to > point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in > Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His > headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading > six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of > Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's > day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th > birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more > like a knife. More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the heart and all that... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sun Jan 29 05:27:38 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:27:38 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled Message-ID: >> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html >> "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, >> fumed." >> >> Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples >> from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the >> New York Post. Into the database it goes: >> >> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It > had a verse, > > "Let me saddle my old straddle > Underneath the western skies" > > -- > -Wilson I believe it was "Let my straddle my own saddle". Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 29 08:06:16 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:06:16 +0100 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: In-Reply-To: <80.4A.03291.B50842F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Don't assume that she had African ancestry. She might have been of Indian background. Think Nicki Minaj. Note that Indian-West Indians are often difficult for those not familiar with that community to place into our US standard racial categories because of West Indian influenced hairstyle and clothes meet East Indian facial features. Of lexical interest, they're sometimes called "Chutneys" in NYC which I am assured is not offensive. Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was > very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, > since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know > who to confront first!" > > > Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white > comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white > Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that > he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his > father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in > South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." > > "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.' " > > > That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged > on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend > *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her > visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. > > Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics > of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the > continental United States"? > > FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan > Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a > black American is "black." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 08:21:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:21:36 -0500 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: In-Reply-To: <201201282310.q0S8S8t0011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Actually, what got my attention is "West-Indian". I though "Caribbean" is more PC these days... But UK use is different. And I am not sure what's used "at home". I suppose, he could have meant that she was of South Asian ancestry, e.g., Indian or Tamil, but from from the West Indies as well. VS-) On 1/28/2012 6:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was > very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, > since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know > who to confront first!" > > > Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white > comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white > Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that > he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his > father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in > South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." > > "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.'" > > > That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged > on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend > *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her > visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. > > Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics > of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the > continental United States"? > > FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan > Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a > black American is "black." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 15:59:42 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:59:42 +0000 Subject: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh Message-ID: More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ and the _mikraah_ (rod).' Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 16:07:24 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:07:24 +0000 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh Message-ID: I left out the word whip (!) , corrected below. ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ (whip) and the _mikraah_ (rod).' Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 29 16:49:49 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:49:49 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <1516DE5090E24D11BFDFF7AB565DD81A@neal> Message-ID: I remember this the way Wilson does. But then I never had printed lyrics, only Gene Autry's pedestrian voice and a low-fidelity sound reproduction (AM radio, or maybe a 78 RPM platter with a worn needle). And [ol] and [on] are almost identical, differing only by the nasalization of [n] versus [l], and particularly the position before the stressed first syllable of "saddle," both an [l] and an [n] would be virtually deleted. Semantically, both "old" and "own" make sense. On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:27 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >>> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html >>> "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, >>> fumed." >>> >>> Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples >>> from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the >>> New York Post. Into the database it goes: >>> >>> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ >>> >>> --bgz >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zimmer >>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It >> had a verse, >> >> "Let me saddle my old straddle >> Underneath the western skies" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > I believe it was "Let my straddle my own saddle". > > Neal > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 29 16:55:40 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:55:40 -0500 Subject: ink eraser In-Reply-To: <4F24D26A.5040406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sweet as remembered kisses after death--or not? On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:00 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > >> ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, >> used to erase writing in ink or blots. > > And this: > > gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php >> Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old >> tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to >> point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in >> Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His >> headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading >> six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of >> Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's >> day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th >> birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more >> like a knife. > > More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink > eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the > heart and all that... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 17:03:24 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:03:24 +0000 Subject: ink eraser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Knives were used by scribes, e.g., in ancient Egypt, to erase, scrape, ink, from papyrus. This obtained, I think, both in the era of rush brush and palette writing and later reed pen and inkwell writing. E.g.,, see: http://books.google.com/books?id=4q1MHDoFVwkC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=knives+erase+papyrus&source=bl&ots=vCt_Sjti_a&sig=EOksI4Xt6e0XEdZQNyO6tHUvdGk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXolT5OmHMfAtwfVsonnAw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=knives%20erase%20papyrus&f=false Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 17:17:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:17:18 -0500 Subject: must-share headline Message-ID: The facts behind the headline are not particularly new, but the point is made rather succinctly, once you know the context. http://goo.gl/4p5nk Economy: The Man-cession and the He-covery VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Jan 29 18:33:19 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:19 -0600 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291607.q0T9jd1O007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very nice find, Stephen. And now a bibliographic reference: Gerald Cohen (compiler; in Comments on Etymology--a series of working papers--, vol. 40, no. 1-2, Oct./Nov. 2010: 'Stephen Goranson's suggestion that "kibosh" in "put the "kibosh on" may derive from "kurbash" (a type of whip)...............................................pp. 12-41 Addenda, especially: A. Stephen Goranson: ca. 1830: Broadside 'Penal Servitude' with lines 'It would put the kibosh like winking / That is if they was to introduce the lash".............................................p. 42 B. Matthew Little's preliminary treatment (Nov. 2009; only now published) suggesting "kibosh" from ""kurbash"....................pp. 45-48. The bottom line here is that a long-standing etymological puzzle seems to have been solved, and with the exception of Matthew Little's very welcome preliminary treatment, the solution has come primarily in the very valuable messages sent to ads-l. (My only role in the above bibliographic reference is as compiler. Full credit is given throughout the article to the various contributors.) Gerald Cohen On 1/29/12 10:07 AM, "Stephen Goranson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", > 1846, kibosh > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > I left out the word whip (!) , corrected below. > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen > Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh > > More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, > kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now > kurbaj mean whip, lash: > > '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back > shall taste of the _kurbaj_ (whip) and the _mikraah_ (rod).' > > Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 > [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" > {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > Google Books: > http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibos > h&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybo > sh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false > > http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 18:17:05 2012 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:17:05 -0500 Subject: no rhyme for "castle" In-Reply-To: <201111011527.pA1AmcDo014319@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Orange you all glad we're done with this one? Mark Mandel On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:27 AM, James A. Landau < JJJRLandau at netscape.com> wrote: > On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:53:35 Zone minus 0400 Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> > wrote: > > >If you say the "T" in "castle," > >It still won't rhyme with "pastel." > >You may have a go at "bastle," > >But that won't rhyme with "orange" > >Or "silver." What a hastle! > > > Aftermath of a Winter Battle > > The sky was clouded and gray > The sun shone a pale silver > The wind was cold that day > I felt a bitter chill. B-r-r-r > > The life-giving blood that had bled > From the bodies of the poor Inj- > uns stained the snow a bright red > But on their skin was a pale orange > > On their clothes it showed a dark brown > It was maroon on their dirty bandages > And a dull pink where it fell on bare ground > Under those stark corpse-blood-and-snow sandwiches > > Here a dead mother holding a dead babe > I could imagine watching her pull > Her small child away from the yawning grave > Before the cold wind turned him purple > > I thought the horror would stop the sun on its dail- > y path through the sky, but, no, Mr. sun > Thick with thorrow lithped hith trail > Through the sky as he did every day of the month > > - James A. Landau > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 19:26:41 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:26:41 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201290806.q0T660Ew023634@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:00:41 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:00:41 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <201201290434.q0SC6Q5l013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html > "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." This has now been silently corrected to "saddled." > Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples > from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the > New York Post. Into the database it goes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:12:47 2012 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:12:47 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:22:01 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:22:01 -0500 Subject: facundity Message-ID: I came across an example of recency fallacy and word formation peeving from 1798. ============ http://goo.gl/doZmW The Monthly Review. Volume 26. August 1798 Monthly Catalogue, for August, 1798. Law. p. 449 Art. 22. /The Study and the Practice of the Law considered in their various Relations to Society. /In a Series of Letters. By a Member of Lincoln's Inn. 8vo. pp. 450. 6s. Boards. Cadell jun. and Davies. 1798. We have read these letters with that satisfaction which invariably accompanies the perusal of those works which recommend the cultivation and practice of what is excellent and respectable in life. The author of this performance is entitled, however, to additional praise beyond that which belongs to virtuous intentions and irreproachable sentiments: for his composition shews an elegant and refined taste, and an intimate acquaintance with the purest models of English style. We cannot, at the same time, agree with him that these letters are particularly calculated to benefit the students of law; the subjects discussed in them being, with very few exceptions, of too general a nature to confine their utility to any one profession; but they may with nearly equal advantage be studied by the members of every profession, and by all descriptions of young men, whatever may be their destination in life. A letter is set apart for the consideration of /Facundity/; by which term, we imagine, the author proposes to convey the idea of eloquence, or perhaps fluency in speech. We are aware that the words /Facundia /and /Facunditas, /in the Latin language, as expressing the former quality, are correct and classical: but we have been unable to discover the adoption of the word by any English writer. Neither is it to be found as a substantive in Johnson's Dictionary ; though the epithet /facund/, from /facundus, /is introduced in the sense of /eloquent /;--without, however, any authority to support it. We agree with the author ' that these letters will not be found useless in the libraries of those who have yet to fix the destination of their children in life, and the perusal of them will probably be extended beyond the circle of professional readers. They are addressed,' he adds, ' to the young and rising mind;' and to them we recommend, with confidence, a serious attention to instructions which have the amelioration of the heart and the improvement of the understanding for their principal objects. ============ OED lists facund adj. from Chaucer to N. Bailey's Dictionary, then cites one more single source from 1859--needs an update, although this piece offers an interesting interdating for 1798. Facund n. is listed as obsolete, from 1340 to 1540 (or thereabouts). Facundity runs from 1530 to 1773 with an addition citation from Times Literary Supplement of 1921. I am quite certain more recent example can be excavated fairly easily, but not by means of GB--"facund" here is rendered as "factoid" and "facundity" is completely mangled, so a direct search in older sources is rather hopeless. [In fact, "factoid" only dates to Normal Mailer's annoyance at Nixon in 1973, but GB list 141 earlier examples, over 100 of which turn out to actually be "factors".] But Wordnik offers a small number of citations--all in Project Gutenberg, but from 19th and 20th century. Century Dictionary of 1906 (much like it's predecessors for the previous two decades and Chambers before that; as well as for another decade following) lists facund, facundious and facundity, but all as obsolete. The same can be said about the bulk of post-1800 hits (at least those that are legitimate). The rest are quotations of much earlier material (e.g., http://goo.gl/QBPBS ). Then I come across this (1991). http://goo.gl/0YA4R Ecology of the mountain waters. By Shanker D. Bhatt, Ravindra K. Pande. New Delhi: 1991 The Degrading Fish Habitats of the Kumaun. (iii) Decrease of Reproductive Potential. p. 317 > The fish facundity largely depends on the body size, the composition > and abundance of food and ecological conditions of the habitat > (Nikolsky, 1969; Moyle and Cech, 1982). The undernutrition or scarcity > of the natural carnivorous diet and disturbances in the habitat > ecology may be responsible for the decrease in the facundity and > fertility of the hill-stream fishes, particularly the Mahseers. The > lowering of the facundity in lake Mahseer or Kumaun has been > attributed to the degraded environmental conditions in the lentic > waters (Pathani, 1978; Pant and Bisht, 1981). Of course, what is meant here is "fecundity", but, perhaps, this Indian publisher didn't have a proofreader. It takes just one more click to get a warning on the subject. http://goo.gl/5nyAO The Superior Person's Second Book of Weird and Wondrous Words. By Peter Bowler. Jaffrey, NH: 1992 p. 29 > FACUNDITY n. Eloquence. Not to be confused with fecundity, i.e. > fertility. (But, rather wonderfully pronounced the same way.) "Pray > silence for our next speaker, Mr. Spinelli, who will give us a > demonstration of his impressive facundity." A rather blatant example can be found here ( http://goo.gl/sEPsX ), where multiple charts are labeled with "Observed facundity/Predicted fecundity" (2004, same Indian publisher!). And it's not just that publisher: http://goo.gl/mo41g The Oregon countryman, Volume 8 (5). February 1916 p. 364 > We do not wish to be understood as wishing to detract from the > importance of the facundity. Undoubtedly the increase in the facundity > of the two breeds noted by Rommel is due in part to the attention of > breeders who have selected to improve this characteristic. An > examination of the Herd Book of such breeders as record the facundity > of animals serves to emphasize the point just made and usually the > larger number farrowed the greater difference between the number > farrowed and the number raised. Hence we infer that much of the > advantage which a sow may secure by virtue of breeding a large number > of pigs per litter is lost because of other considerations either > avoidable or otherwise. This is followed by a photo, captioned, "A Sow That is Capable of Handling a Large Litter". I doubt any of these sources is talking about the /eloquence/ of fish, chickens or pigs. Another apparent typo/eggcorn is in the Atlantic (1903). http://goo.gl/M9MM3 The Atlantic Monthly. Volume 92 (549). July 1903 A National Type of Culture. p. 76 > Cosmopolitanism is apt to be rather a thing of versatility, > adaptability, /facundity/, sojourning homelessness, and the general > use of common denominators. Unsurprisingly, I came across both words also in SAT prep materials, sneaky little bastards that they are. But, back to facundity. [Also in GB http://goo.gl/V2kGP ] http://goo.gl/y79OS The Project Gutenberg EBook of A History of the French Novel, Vol. 2, by George Saintsbury A HISTORY OF THE FRENCH NOVEL. Volume 2. By George Saintsbury. London: 1919 p. 207 > I do not make the very facile and somewhat futile criticism that she > would have written better if she had written half or a quarter as much > as she did. She could not have written little; it is as natural and > suitable for Tweed to "rin wi' speed" as for Till to "rin slaw," > though perhaps the result--parallel to but more cheerful than that > recorded in the old rhyme--may be that Till has the power not of > drowning but of intoxicating two men, where Tweed can only manage one. > But this engrained fecundity and facundity of hers inevitably make her > work novel-journalism rather than novel-literature in all points but > in that of style, which has been discussed already.[197] > [197] I have said little or nothing of the short stories. They are > fairly numerous, but I do not think that her /forte/ lay in them. This "fecundity" has nothing to do with "healthy growth" or "fertility" or "the ability to handle a large litter", but rather matches a derivative definition: "the intellectual fruitfulness of a creative imagination"; or, in AHD, "Productive or creative power". Speaking of fecundity--OED has six different shades of meaning, but only the animal reproductive one has any quotes beyond 1884. Also needs an update. A few more, in random order. http://goo.gl/HYA2w Charles Dickens. By George Augustus Sala. In The mystery of Edwin Drood, Volume 2. By Charles Dickens. Leipzig: 1870 p. 193 > The audience whom Mr. Dickens addressed was composed of educated and > cultivated persons who would have looked upon a real murder with as > much horror as they would have displayed aversion from the spectacle > of the hanging of the murderer; and no healthy feelings could possibly > be awakened by the simulation in marvellous fluency of language and > facundity of gesture of a revolting and sanguinary scene. http://goo.gl/z3ZxT The Nation. No. 911. New York. December 15, 1882 p. 496/3 > There could hardly be a more elevating spectacle than the way in which > Mr. Blaine's antagonists occasionally lend a hand in getting him out > of the scrapes into which his remarkable facundity so often plunges him. http://goo.gl/ux8gW http://goo.gl/g2Dml Social England: A Record of the Progress of the People in Religion, Laws, Learning Arts, Industry, Commerce, Science, Literature and Manners, from the Earliest Times to the Present Day. Volume 5. Edited by Henry Duff Traill. London: 1896; New York: 1899 Chapter 17. The Age of Walpole, 1714-1742. p. 84 > We thus miss Mandeville, a master of rough, repulsive, but vigorous > and idiomatic English, Dutchman as he was, and nearly as vivid a > realist as Defoe; Shaftesbury, his elegant predecessor and provoker; > the Deist crew who wrote and drew down on themselves the wrath of > better writers than themselves; Leslie, the /Doctor Invincibilis /of > later English controversy; Law, as stout a controversialist as he, and > something more than a partisan; Bentley, Leslie's equal in profane and > scholarly polemic; the rugged style but admirably lucid thought of > Bishop Butler; the smooth, if treacherous facundity of Conyers > Middleton; the ragings of the Bangorian controversy. http://goo.gl/8APW6 The Spectator. March 28, 1896 The Radical Discontent. p. 437/1 > But though we agree with Mr. Hume in wondering at the facile > confidence placed by his party in Lord Rosebery, we do not at all > agree with Mr. Hume in imagining that either he himself, or any other > leader, however passionately disposed to utter the /saeva indignatio > /of the Radical party that "the horny-handed sons of toil" do not lead > happier and brighter lives, would improve the position of that party > by raising stentorian cries against the House of Lords and all sorts > of other English institutions to which what he is pleased to call Lord > Rosebery's "facund tongue" gives such inadequate utterance. http://goo.gl/0hVgg Wordsworthiana: A Selection from Papers Read to the Wordsworth Society. London: 1889 J. Russell Lowell's Address as President, 1884. p. 176 > There is no limit to his — let us call it facundity. http://goo.gl/M7H3Z Punch, or the London Charivari. 1896 Jottings and Tittlings. By Baboo Hurry Bunseng Jabberjee, B.A. [N. Antsley]. No. VIII. April 4, 1896. p. 160/2 > With this, I sat down, leaving my audience as /sotto voce/ as fishes > with admiration and amazement at the facundity of my eloquence, and > should indubitably have been the recipient of innumerable > felicitations but for the fact that Miss Spink, suddenly experiencing > sensations of insalubriousness, requested me, without delay, to > conduct her from the assemblage. No. XV. June 27, 1896. p. 304/2 > His Honor, laughing good-naturedly, did tell me that if I liked to > assume the plumes of a daw, it was no affair of his, and kindly > promised to respect my confidences -- at which I was greatly relieved. > Indeed, throughout the evening, nothing could exceed his affability, > for, being seated on the other side of the hostess, opposite myself, > he showed me the greatest honour and deference, frequently requesting > my views on such subjects as Increased Representation of the People of > India, the National Congress, and so forth; upon whioh, being now > perfectly reassured and at my ease, discoursed with facundity, and did > loudly extol the intellectual capacity of the Bengalis, as evinced by > marvellous success in passing most difficult exams, and denouncing it > as a crying injustice and beastly shame that fullest political powers > should not be conceded to them, and that they should not be eligible > for all civil appointments /pari passu, /or even in priority to > Englishmen. http://goo.gl/DXqLw Shakespearian and Other Essays. By James Smith. Cambridge: 1974 [Digital version: 2010] The Winter's Tale. p. 135 > Yet if Autolycus's summary of his wares has enabled the spectator to > conceive anything, it is that nothing to be found this - or any - side > of reality baffles the ballad-makers' facundity. http://goo.gl/J2J03 The Quarterly Review. Volume 12 (23). October 1814 [Review of] The Works of the English Poets, from Chaucer to Cowper; including the Series edited with Prefaces Biographical and Critical, by Dr. Samuel Johnson; and the most approved Translations. The additional Lives by Alexander Chalmers. p. 75 > Du Bartas had been ambassador in Scotland, and James, who vainly > tempted him to remain at his court, had translated some of his works > himself, perhaps not entirely to his own satisfaction, for Hudson > tells us he maintained that 'the lofty phrase, the grave inditement, > the facund terms of the French Sallust could not be followed, nor > sufficiently expressed in our rude and unpolished English language.' This is a somewhat false hit, as Du Bartas lived in the second half of the 16th century--right in the period when "facund" was being used. I really have no idea which "Hudson" is being referred to (John Hudson, 1662-1719?). There is more, but I'll let someone else finish the excavation VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:30:12 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:30:12 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From Elon Green, this morning: http://goo.gl/C9nbN > This is a long way of saying that, though political predictions are a > tough racket, I’ll happily offer one of my own: When Mitt Romney wins > Florida, and subsequently the nomination, South Carolina, long known > as “The Firewall”, will cease to be an electorally pivotal station of > the cross in the GOP’s nominating process. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:51:23 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:51:23 -0500 Subject: One last word on 'milk' Message-ID: I was buying some milk yesterday, and noticed in the cooler the item called 'Muscle Milk', which, immediately under its name on the bottle proclaims : 'Contains no milk' For those who want to know what on earth it does contain, here's a website: http://www.cytosport.com/products/muscle-milk/muscle-milk-ready-to-drink Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:52:24 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:52:24 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness Message-ID: The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the vestibular system and the visual system. The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to find early examples. Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper Date: 29 Apr 1996 http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ [Begin excerpt] 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to Simulator Sickness First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. [End excerpt] The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams Gamasutra Date: August 14, 1998 http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm [Begin excerpt] One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. [End excerpt] http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp [Begin excerpt] What is cybersickness? Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. [End excerpt] http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html [Begin excerpt] That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing these things and can, in the case of interactive applications (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. [End excerpt] The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 21:57:13 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:57:13 -0500 Subject: undercrackers In-Reply-To: <201201281444.q0S8S8iG011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Does this word have any US currency? Etymologically, does it refer to "crack" meaning "crotch" or "intergluteal cleft" or so? Does it mean "underpants", or does it mean "underwear"? I.e., can it refer to such upper-body underwear as vest/undershirt/camisole or brassiere? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 22:02:45 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:02:45 -0500 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291759.q0T660cn007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/29/2012 1:33 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > .... > > The bottom line here is that a long-standing etymological puzzle > seems to have been solved, and with the exception of Matthew > Little's very welcome preliminary treatment, the solution has > come primarily in the very valuable messages sent to ads-l. > (My only role in the above bibliographic reference is as compiler. > Full credit is given throughout the article to the various > contributors.) .... -- I already sent a response, which presumably has been lost in Cyberspace or caught in the spam filter, so I'll try again: ---------- The personal 'name' seems to me to be essentially "Kibosh Ibn Humbug", a joke name wherein "kibosh" might 'mean' either "bosh" ("nonsense") (as it did sometimes later) or "stop" as in the contemporary "put the kibosh on". Whether one can make more of it with better understanding of the 'Orientalist' context of the time, I don't know. No doubt "kurbaj" meant approximately "whip" (used for punishment). Here I believe the word is introduced superfluously along with other 'Middle Eastern' words in jocular imitation of various 'Orientalist' works. I myself do not [yet] see a presumptive etymological connection between "kurbaj" and "kibosh". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 01:19:12 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:19:12 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting. My wife has a condition called BPPV, Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo, and when we went to see Hugo we were worried she might not be able to manage the experience. But her only real problem was with the 3D action movies that were being previewed (interminably, it seemed), everything from a Star Wars 3D remake to a Titanic 3D remake to some new movies, none of which seemed like they'd be a major sacrifice to give up. She deliberately avoided Avatar when that came out, but Hugo turned out not to pose any real problems, and she felt it was definitely worth seeing, 3D and all. So at least for some people with some forms of vertigo, this 3D sickness isn't brought on automatically by watching movies that use the technology, but depends on how they use it. (We did notice that taking off the glasses and watching doesn't work. And yes, I know Hugo was released in 2D versions too, but it would be a shame to miss the full experience, assuming it doesn't make you ! sick.) LH On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea > experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) > is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical > space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the > vestibular system and the visual system. > > The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term > 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. > > 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! > http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness > > Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to > find early examples. > > Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between > the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper > Date: 29 Apr 1996 > http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ > > [Begin excerpt] > 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to > Simulator Sickness > > First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator > sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be > offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems > and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible > contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature > of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of > current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also > contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. > [End excerpt] > > The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams > Gamasutra > Date: August 14, 1998 > http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm > [Begin excerpt] > One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to > motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. > [End excerpt] > > > http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp > [Begin excerpt] > What is cybersickness? > Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by > users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, > 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view > moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation > can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples > of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. > [End excerpt] > > > http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html > [Begin excerpt] > That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing > these things and can, in the case of interactive applications > (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. > [End excerpt] > > > The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does > not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. > > OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to > vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), > esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. > 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR > scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 01:20:31 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:20:31 -0500 Subject: undercrackers In-Reply-To: <4F25C0B9.3090201@nb.net> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Does this word have any US currency? > > Etymologically, does it refer to "crack" meaning "crotch" or > "intergluteal cleft" or so? > > Does it mean "underpants", or does it mean "underwear"? I.e., can it > refer to such upper-body underwear as vest/undershirt/camisole or brassiere? > And is it a blend with "firecrackers"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 03:05:30 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:05:30 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201292013.q0T9jd80007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > > Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 30 03:21:30 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:21:30 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness In-Reply-To: <8959784C-AA97-4C8F-A68E-CE928980042F@yale.edu> Message-ID: I understand (vaguely) that there is "real 3D" and ... I dunno, "remastered 3D". The former, which Hugo is in, is made with two cameras, the latter by manipulating a 2D original. The previews were probably all of remastered 2D movies (e.g. Titanic, Star Wars). Perhaps Larry's wife can tolerate the real but not the ersatz. Avatar was "real 3D" too, I think -- perhaps she might have ventured it. Joel At 1/29/2012 08:19 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Interesting. My wife has a condition called BPPV, Benign Paroxysmal >Positional Vertigo, and when we went to see Hugo we were worried she >might not be able to manage the experience. But her only real >problem was with the 3D action movies that were being previewed >(interminably, it seemed), everything from a Star Wars 3D remake to >a Titanic 3D remake to some new movies, none of which seemed like >they'd be a major sacrifice to give up. She deliberately avoided >Avatar when that came out, but Hugo turned out not to pose any real >problems, and she felt it was definitely worth seeing, 3D and >all. So at least for some people with some forms of vertigo, this >3D sickness isn't brought on automatically by watching movies that >use the technology, but depends on how they use it. (We did notice >that taking off the glasses and watching doesn't work. And yes, I >know Hugo was released in 2D versions too, but it would be a shame >to miss the full experience, assuming it doesn't make you ! > sick.) > >LH > >On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea > > experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) > > is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical > > space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the > > vestibular system and the visual system. > > > > The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term > > 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. > > > > 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! > > http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness > > > > Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to > > find early examples. > > > > Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between > > the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper > > Date: 29 Apr 1996 > > http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ > > > > [Begin excerpt] > > 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to > > Simulator Sickness > > > > First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator > > sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be > > offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems > > and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible > > contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature > > of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of > > current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also > > contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. > > [End excerpt] > > > > The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams > > Gamasutra > > Date: August 14, 1998 > > > http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm > > [Begin excerpt] > > One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to > > motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp > > [Begin excerpt] > > What is cybersickness? > > Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by > > users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, > > 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view > > moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation > > can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples > > of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html > > [Begin excerpt] > > That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing > > these things and can, in the case of interactive applications > > (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does > > not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. > > > > OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to > > vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), > > esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. > > 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR > > scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jan 30 03:59:44 2012 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:59:44 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. -Matt Gordon ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > > Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 30 04:14:53 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:14:53 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201300359.q0T9RiE2011254@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom, don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some erosion, but both my native NY/N NJ dialect, and the dialect of the students I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot = [kat] and caught = [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me, as you must know from your years in NJ, if not CT. Paul Johnston On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > > -Matt Gordon > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? > > In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." > > Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! >> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> >> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >> >> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. >> >> Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. >> >> Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 30 06:04:10 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:04:10 -0500 Subject: Another "kybosh" In-Reply-To: <201201300120.q0T660xF007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Irish? Yiddish? Hebrew? Turkish? Why not Chinese? (^_^) Here's a fairly early instance of "kybosh" which I don't remember seeing before: Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/7dp5rdz ---------- Charles Selby, _Maximums and Speciments of William Muggins, Natural Philosopher and Citizen of the World_ (George Routledge [London], 1846) (preface dated 1841): p. 247: [apparently regarding cut-throat competition, here apparently musical concerts versus drama] <> ---------- Here "kybosh" seems to = "finisher", more or less as usual. I'm not inclined to take the "Chinese" part too seriously. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 30 14:40:30 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:40:30 -0500 Subject: "cornet postilion" and "caperiosky" [Was: Another "kybosh"] In-Reply-To: <4F2632DA.1090609@nb.net> Message-ID: At 1/30/2012 01:04 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Irish? Yiddish? Hebrew? Turkish? Why not Chinese? (^_^) > >Here's a fairly early instance of "kybosh" which I don't remember seeing >before: > >Google Books: > >http://tinyurl.com/7dp5rdz > >---------- > >Charles Selby, _Maximums and Speciments of William Muggins, Natural >Philosopher and Citizen of the World_ (George Routledge [London], 1846) >(preface dated 1841): p. 247: > >[apparently regarding cut-throat competition, here apparently musical >concerts versus drama] > ><Hanover-square Rooms, and at the houses of the nobillerty, where there's >hall the Hitalians and hevery hextrornary foreigner as can be picked >hup. Then come the concerts and hopperas and waudeweals at the >public-houses, and last of hall, as a regler finisher, we gets the >"Concerts Musard." That's wot the Chinese calls the _kybosh_ -- the poor >hactors is bowled hout and must shut hup shop; none on 'em can stand >against a solo on the _cornet postilion_, or a caperiosky, or the >_tombone_, or the _double-barrelled flagelet_.>> > >---------- > >Here "kybosh" seems to = "finisher", more or less as usual. > >I'm not inclined to take the "Chinese" part too seriously. Nor am I, for it (I take it for "those whose origin is the mysterious East") or for the rest of the piece. But Doug, tell us what kinds of musical instruments a "cornet postilion" and a "caperiosky" are! (Your instance of "caperiosky" seems to be the only one in the entire universe (that is, of Google).) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 30 17:07:03 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:07:03 -0600 Subject: ink eraser (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201290512.q0S8tZUA009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I'd imagine it refers to something like the top item on this catalog page (1913 Keuffel & Esser Co.). They are used to scrap ink off vellum/parchment drawings. They are more or less obsolete, now, with everything being done in CAD programs and large format laser printers and plotters, but I've got a couple in my old drafting kits. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Victor Steinbok > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:00 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ink eraser > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: ink eraser > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > > > ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, > > used to erase writing in ink or blots. > > And this: > > gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php > > Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old > > tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to > > point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in > > Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His > > headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading > > six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of > > Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's > > day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th > > birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more > > like a knife. > > More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink > eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the > heart and all that... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 30 17:39:23 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:39:23 -0600 Subject: ink eraser (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201301707.q0U69qCV031450@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > I'd imagine it refers to something like the top item on this catalog > page (1913 Keuffel & Esser Co.). They are used to scrap ink off > vellum/parchment drawings. They are more or less obsolete, now, with > everything being done in CAD programs and large format laser printers > and plotters, but I've got a couple in my old drafting kits. > > Another here, from 1948 Gordon Draftsmen's Supply Catalog: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/gordon-1948/gordon-1948-p55.jpg and here, from J. H. Weil & Co., 1953: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/weil-1953/weil-1953-p225.gif 1954-59 K&E: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/ke-1954/ke-1954-p267.gif 1955 Defiance Sales: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/defiance-1955/defiance-1955-p267.jp g 1971 Alvin General catalog: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/alvin-1971/alvin-1971-p88.jpg Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 18:13:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:13:30 -0500 Subject: pink slime Message-ID: Giving something a name can help to destroy its marketability. I am not sure who came up with the name "pink slime" but it does not appear to be the trademark of the product (ammoniated beef trimmings). As late as 2009, NYT failed to use the term in its article on the subject. http://goo.gl/V9l2q There is a possibly interesting turn of phrase in that article: > "Several packers have unofficially raised concern regarding the use of > the product since the perception of quality is inferior," the 2002 > memo said. "But will use product to obtain lower bid." ["Inferior" modifies "perception" rather than "quality"--at least, this is what I see. It could fixed by replacing "is" with "as", but that opens another can of worms.] As for "pink slime", http://goo.gl/Ddnqk > McDonald's said this week that it was no longer using the > controversial ground beef additive known as "pink slime" in its > hamburger recipe. Taco Bell and Burger King have also reportedly > repudiated the "slime," which consists of spare beef trimmings that > have been treated with ammonium hydroxide to make them safe and at > least semi-palatable. > The move came after "Food Revolution" and "Naked Chef" star Jamie > Oliver made public calls for chains to abandon the "slime," which has > been manufactured by Beef Products Inc since 2001. Some are pointing > to his advocacy as a central factor behind McDonald's decision. > Even if Oliver was the most prominent critic of "pink slime," though, > he wasn't alone. The /New York Times/ raised serious doubts about > "pink slime" in a 2009 investigation of the product. It was also > criticized in the 2010 documentary "Food Inc." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 30 19:28:55 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: "cornet postilion" and "caperiosky" [Was: Another "kybosh"] In-Reply-To: <201201301440.q0U6ADKl013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/30/2012 9:40 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > But Doug, tell us what kinds of musical instruments a "cornet > postilion" and a "caperiosky" are! (Your instance of "caperiosky" > seems to be the only one in the entire universe (that is, of Google).) -- The whole book is done in eye-dialect with many malapropisms. I suppose "cornet postillion" represents "cornetta di postiglione", Italian for "post horn" (musical instrument). Maybe "caperiosky" represents "capriccio" or something like that? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 19:49:47 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:49:47 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201300415.q0T9jdH0007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT calls her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she used to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Paula") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catching it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul, and I will stand in precious awe of you. Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom, don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some erosion, but both my native NY/N NJ dialect, and the dialect of the students I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot = [kat] and caught = [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me, as you must know from your years in NJ, if not CT. > > Paul Johnston > On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > > > > -Matt Gordon > > ________________________________________ > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > > > Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? > > > > In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." > > > > Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > >> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> > >> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > >> > >> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > >> > >> Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > >> > >> Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From raindoctor at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 19:56:12 2012 From: raindoctor at GMAIL.COM (V) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:56:12 -0800 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201291926.q0T660iJ007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom, Had you lived in the 14th century, what would you have done to stop the great vowel shift? Today's "awe" /ɔ/ was /ɑʊ/ then. Why can't you change your "awe" to /ɑʊ/ ? Pedro V On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has > disappeared= > from US English tutorials. > =20 > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > =20 > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each > t= > ake the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye > b= > ye. > =20 > Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > =20 > =20 > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Mon Jan 30 20:26:34 2012 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:26:34 -0800 Subject: an odd example of legalese Message-ID: Here is what Reuters says: "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of tics-like symptoms." ============================================ Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: A or B is not the cause of C What I infer they meant us to understand is this: A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C Which could be succinctly put as: Neither A nor B is the cause of C (Do the Venn diagram.) ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? Brian Hitchcock ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 20:37:26 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:37:26 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <005401ccdf8d$75646bc0$602d4340$@skechers.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > Here is what Reuters says: > > "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an > infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of > tics-like symptoms." > ============================================ > > Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses > the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: > > A or B is not the cause of C > > What I infer they meant us to understand is this: > > A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C > Which could be succinctly put as: > Neither A nor B is the cause of C > > (Do the Venn diagram.) The Venn diagram won't help, since this would be an instance of "free choice permission", which is a misleading label for the general phenomenon of disjunctions with the force of conjunctions. Four such cases: (1) negation ("De Morgan's Law" contexts) "I don't eat meat or fish" = "I don't eat meat" & "I don't eat fish" (2) conditionals "If you eat meat or fish, you're not a vegetarian" = "If you eat meat you're not a vegetarian" & "If you eat fish you're not a vegetarian" (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" & "You can go to the beach" "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" (4) generics "Tigers live in Siberia or India" = "Tigers live in Siberia" & "Tigers live in India" In each case, there's a true disjunctive reading possible, brought out by a continuation like "…I don't remember/know which" or "Guess which". But all things being equal, the conjunctive reading is more likely. The tricky thing about the example "A or B is not the cause of C" is that it doesn't obviously fall into any of these categories, but if you take it to be paraphrasable along the lines of "Choose A or B, it doesn't matter which. That's not the cause of C" it's similar to the other examples. > > ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', > rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? > Yes, I would. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL Mon Jan 30 20:56:51 2012 From: lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL (Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:56:51 -0700 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201302037.q0UIsO7d013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This reminds me of the humorous exchange in which a mother, teacher, or some such authority figure asks a disobedient child something like: "Do you want to grow up to be a criminal or a Congressman?" and the kid replies something like: "Sounds good to me!" Does anybody know the exact example? Lynne Hunter -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Monday, January 30, 2012 12:37 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: an odd example of legalese ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: an odd example of legalese ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > Here is what Reuters says: > > "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an > infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of > tics-like symptoms." > ============================================ > > Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses > the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: > > A or B is not the cause of C > > What I infer they meant us to understand is this: > > A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C > Which could be succinctly put as: > Neither A nor B is the cause of C > > (Do the Venn diagram.) The Venn diagram won't help, since this would be an instance of "free choice permission", which is a misleading label for the general phenomenon of disjunctions with the force of conjunctions. Four such cases: (1) negation ("De Morgan's Law" contexts) "I don't eat meat or fish" = "I don't eat meat" & "I don't eat fish" (2) conditionals "If you eat meat or fish, you're not a vegetarian" = "If you eat meat you're not a vegetarian" & "If you eat fish you're not a vegetarian" (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" & "You can go to the beach" "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" (4) generics "Tigers live in Siberia or India" = "Tigers live in Siberia" & "Tigers live in India" In each case, there's a true disjunctive reading possible, brought out by a continuation like "...I don't remember/know which" or "Guess which". But all things being equal, the conjunctive reading is more likely. The tricky thing about the example "A or B is not the cause of C" is that it doesn't obviously fall into any of these categories, but if you take it to be paraphrasable along the lines of "Choose A or B, it doesn't matter which. That's not the cause of C" it's similar to the other examples. > > ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', > rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? > Yes, I would. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:03:22 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:03:22 +0100 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= > s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= > d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= > la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= > hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = > "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = > you. > =20 > Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = > now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> =20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------ >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Paul Johnston >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> =20 >> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= > rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= > ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= > =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= > ars in NJ=2C if not CT. >> =20 >> Paul Johnston >> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: >> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > -------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > -------- >>> >>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = > and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= > een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= > for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. >>> >>> -Matt Gordon >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= > m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> >>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= > re in Canada? You know that for sure? >>> >>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= > o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= > ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= > native speaker of American or Canadian English." >>> >>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= > A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= > hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= > me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= > e "awe"some. >>> >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= > --------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= > --------- >>>> >>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= > cribes their phonological inventory! >>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= > om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> >>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= > ared from US English tutorials. >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >>>> >>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= > ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= > e bye. >>>> >>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. >>>> >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:25:59 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIfutF012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think Alexander Gil, who decided anything higher than [ae:] in name, tale, etc. was the providence of "dandies and silly little girls" (roughly translated from the Latin) in 1621 is alive and well. And did he win? Well, I, like most of you, have [ei] and I'm neither a dandy nor a silly little girl. Tom probably has [ei] too. And, shock, horror! Later on, this change involved a merger with the vowel in rain, tail, too! A lot of early 17c. orthoepists didn't like that. They fought it until after the English Civil War, even though the merger was apparently variable in at least somewhat genteel circles since Shakespeare's time. I'm trying to find out in my research (really) when Cockneys adopted it, but the surrounding area to London didn't until the 19c, and some areas fairly nearby probably still keep the two classes apart (though on our side of the pool, we all merged them, except in Newfoundland). When speakers want a vowel shift, they get a vowel shift. Gil or no Gil. Paul Johnston On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= >> s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= >> d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= >> la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= >> hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = >> "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = >> you. >> =20 >> Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = >> now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". >> >> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >>> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= >> ------ >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Paul Johnston >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------ >>> =20 >>> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= >> rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= >> ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= >> =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= >> ars in NJ=2C if not CT. >>> =20 >>> Paul Johnston >>> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: >>> =20 >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= >> -------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> -------- >>>> >>>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = >> and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= >> een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= >> for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. >>>> >>>> -Matt Gordon >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= >> m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> >>>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= >> re in Canada? You know that for sure? >>>> >>>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= >> o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= >> ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= >> native speaker of American or Canadian English." >>>> >>>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= >> A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= >> hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= >> me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= >> e "awe"some. >>>> >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= >> --------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> --------- >>>>> >>>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= >> cribes their phonological inventory! >>>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= >> om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>>> >>>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= >> ared from US English tutorials. >>>>> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >>>>> >>>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= >> ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= >> e bye. >>>>> >>>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. >>>>> >>>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:20:03 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:20:03 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIsOB5013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge > must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 21:30:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:30:48 -0500 Subject: Xsters Message-ID: James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: http://goo.gl/FKsy > In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the > /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a > rival bank sounding off indignantly "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, pranksters, gangster, monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:36:21 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:36:21 -0500 Subject: Xsters In-Reply-To: <4F270C08.5010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: > > http://goo.gl/FKsy >> In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the >> /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a >> rival bank sounding off indignantly > > "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, > pranksters, gangster, --and mobster. But probably not lobster; they're not tasty enough. LH > monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the > last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from > "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old > formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is > it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the > mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:40:46 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: Xsters In-Reply-To: <201201302131.q0UIfu0b012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: > > http://goo.gl/FKsy >> In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the >> /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a >> rival bank sounding off indignantly > > "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, > pranksters, gangster, monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the > last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from > "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old > formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is > it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the > mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) "Bankster" is a blend of "bank" and "gangster" long predating the recent rash of "-er" groups. First used in _Time_ in 1932, in the era of the Pecora Commission. I wrote about it here: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1770/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 30 21:50:23 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:50:23 -0800 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302130.q0UIfu0H012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >> >> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? > Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, > Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's > the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? > > --bgz I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 22:39:19 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302200.q0UIfu5n012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You mean like the joke? http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm DanG On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >>> >>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) >> >> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? >> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, >> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >> >> --bgz > > I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 19:29:23 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:29:23 -0500 Subject: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291559.q0T660Uj007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/29/2012 10:59 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > .... > > More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: > > '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ and the _mikraah_ (rod).' > > Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 > [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" > {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > Google Books: > http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false > > http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu -- The personal 'name' seems to me to be essentially "Kibosh Ibn Humbug", a joke name wherein "kibosh" might 'mean' either "bosh" ("nonsense") (as it did sometimes later) or "stop" as in the contemporary "put the kibosh on". Whether one can make more of it with better understanding of the 'Orientalist' context of the time, I don't know. No doubt "kurbaj" meant approximately "whip" (used for punishment). Here I believe the word is introduced superfluously along with other 'Middle Eastern' words in jocular imitation of various 'Orientalist' works. I myself do not [yet] see a presumptive etymological connection between "kurbaj" and "kibosh". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 00:37:03 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:37:03 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIfutF012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This from an ESL teacher at an ESL site: "I feel that the use of ah/awe is dialectal. Not every US dialect even recognizes the difference. To simplify with my clients, I don't even teach the difference. They have bigger issues to make their speech more intelligible!" There goes the "awe" phoneme. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= > > s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= > > d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= > > la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= > > hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = > > "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = > > you. > > =20 > > Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = > > now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". > > > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> =20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > > ------ > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Paul Johnston > >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ------ > >> =20 > >> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= > > rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= > > ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= > > =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= > > ars in NJ=2C if not CT. > >> =20 > >> Paul Johnston > >> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: > >> =20 > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > > -------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." > >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > > -------- > >>> > >>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = > > and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= > > een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= > > for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > >>> > >>> -Matt Gordon > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= > > m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM > >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>> > >>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= > > re in Canada? You know that for sure? > >>> > >>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= > > o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= > > ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= > > native speaker of American or Canadian English." > >>> > >>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= > > A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= > > hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= > > me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= > > e "awe"some. > >>> > >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > >>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= > > --------- > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." > >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= > > --------- > >>>> > >>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= > > cribes their phonological inventory! > >>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= > > om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>>> > >>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= > > ared from US English tutorials. > >>>> > >>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > >>>> > >>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= > > ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= > > e bye. > >>>> > >>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. > >>>> > >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> =20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > = > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 31 00:50:07 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:50:07 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <16D10429-455C-4C57-9B78-5CC59582FA48@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/30/2012 03:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >(3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts >"You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" >& "You can go to the beach" >"He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" Is this really correct? Aren't these disjunctive choices? The & says that both are possible together. But "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach, but not both (at the same time)." "He could be Italian or he could be Greek, but he cannot (no one can) be both." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 00:52:13 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:52:13 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302239.q0UIfuCp012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass but now lives in LA. The voices of thefreedictionary.com say USA - ahsome ~aasum UK - ohsome ~oesum speaker icon awesome ~ausum Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 > From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You mean like the joke? > > http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm > > DanG > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > >>> > >>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge > >>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > >> > >> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? > >> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, > >> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's > >> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? > >> > >> --bgz > > > > I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. > > > > Benjamin Barrett > > Seattle, WA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 01:18:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:18:53 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201310050.q0V0oAOd020404@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/30/2012 03:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts >> "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" >> & "You can go to the beach" >> "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" > > Is this really correct? Aren't these disjunctive choices? The & > says that both are possible together. But > > "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach, but not both > (at the same time)." > "He could be Italian or he could be Greek, but he cannot (no one can) be both." > That's a relevant, but orthogonal factor. Our assumptions about the world determine whether the "both" is a possibility, but it's never guaranteed, any more than in "He can be Italian, and he can (also) be Greek: hard to say which he is". If I say "You can have soup and you can have salad", there's no guarantee that you can have both. And you can certainly tell a child who says there's nothing to do, "You can go to the movies, and you can go to the beach, but you can't do both" without contradiction. Or "We can spend our vacation in the mountains and we can spend it on the shore. Not enough time to do both, though." But it's partly based on our real world assumptions: If you change the example to "It could be cold or snowy": this says each is an active possibility, but it doesn't either guarantee or rule out the possibility that it could be both, since coldness is compatible with snow in a way of Italianness vs. Greekness. Notice also that you've altered the examples: for many (not all) speakers, the possibility of conjunctive readings is reduced in full as opposed to reduced disjunctions, i.e. in your "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach" vs. my example (actually Hans Kamp's, from a 1973 paper) "You can go to the movies or (to) the beach". For some speakers the former allows only the "I can't remember which" reading, not the "it doesn't matter which" (= "free choice permission") one. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 01:19:48 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:19:48 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass but now lives in LA. > > The voices of thefreedictionary.com say > USA - ahsome ~aasum > UK - ohsome ~oesum > speaker icon awesome ~ausum > > Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. > > In the English speaking world, perhaps? LH > > > > > >> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 >> From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> You mean like the joke? >> >> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >>>>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) >>>> >>>> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? >>>> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, >>>> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >>>> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >>>> >>>> --bgz >>> >>> I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jan 31 02:30:43 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:30:43 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items Message-ID: Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: dirty-trickster doomster dumpster ecodoomster folkster fraudster funkster gloom and doomster gloomster greenster grungester hoopster opster poster scamster telescamster Webster (WWWwise) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 02:47:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:47:51 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310230.q0UMhxpX012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: seamster gamester pollster teamster (yes, the Teamsters started out Team Drivers' International Union) (made-up trademark) grokster (made-up trademark) poinster VS-) On 1/30/2012 9:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > > > > dirty-trickster > > doomster > > dumpster > > ecodoomster > > folkster > > fraudster > > funkster > > gloom and doomster > > gloomster > > greenster > > grungester > > hoopster > > opster > > poster > > scamster > > telescamster > > Webster (WWWwise) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 31 04:16:34 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:16:34 -0800 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310230.q0UIelKT031450@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > > dirty-trickster... nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 05:09:10 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:09:10 -0500 Subject: transphobic Message-ID: A recent blog header http://goo.gl/oJ52d Air Canada confirms they must comply with transphobic law OED has a quote (under hate crime), but that is all. > 2001 /Independent/ 17 Aug. 1/6 Scotland Yard is creating a category > of hate crime, 'transphobic crime', to cover offences against > transgender people. Wiki has it under Transphobia. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Tue Jan 31 07:15:53 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:15:53 +0100 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eastern NE has long had the merge. It's one of the two main shibboleths (along with the short-a split) of Boston vs. NY r-less speech. Daniel Ezra Johnson has a book on the border published by……(for dramatic pause)…………ADS! Stability and Change Along a Dialect Boundary: The Low Vowels of Southeastern New England Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 31, 2012, at 1:52 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass = > but now lives in LA. > =20 > The voices of thefreedictionary.com say > USA - ahsome ~aasum > UK - ohsome ~oesum > speaker icon awesome ~ausum > =20 > Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. =20 > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > =20 > =20 > > > > =20 > >> Date: Mon=2C 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 >> From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> =20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------ >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> =20 >> You mean like the joke? >> =20 >> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm >> =20 >> DanG >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Mon=2C Jan 30=2C 2012 at 4:50 PM=2C Benjamin Barrett .com> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > -------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > -------- >>> >>> On Jan 30=2C 2012=2C at 1:20 PM=2C Ben Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon=2C Jan 30=2C 2012 at 4:03 PM=2C Michael Newman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This mer= > ge >>>>> must be stopped! If not=2C America might as well end up as the 11th p= > rovince. =3B) >>>> >>>> You laugh=2C but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time= > ? >>>> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan=2C Little Bear=2C Frankl= > in=2C >>>> Max & Ruby)=2C you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >>>> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >>>> >>>> --bgz >>> >>> I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Me= > rge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle=2C WA >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 14:03:26 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:26 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." Message-ID: Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia article doesn't mention them. Real? Or Memorex? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 14:09:24 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:09:24 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310416.q0UMhx4L012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the early '80s I noted that "-ster" was being used humorously to create nonce nicknames based on one's given name. HDAS III should have exx. For example, David Barnhart might be referred to as "the Davester." (Not that he necessarily was.) Or addressed as "Davester," though I think direct address was less common. It works best with monosyllabic names. It's still around, AFAIK. JL On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > >> Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: >> >> dirty-trickster... > > nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: > > http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jan 31 14:35:29 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:35:29 -0500 Subject: mistake in transphobic--mine Message-ID: You cannot fix breakfast for two twenty-somethings and edit at the same time. Thinking gets scrambled. The Steinbock transphobics are, indeed, the same. DKB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 15:15:38 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:15:38 -0500 Subject: "tacogate"; "posterize"; "the full Mozgov" Message-ID: The former is the inevitable appellation for the recent scandal involving the systematic pattern (and subsequent coverup) of the East Haven, CT police in discriminating against and roughing up Latino residents without cause, which has been known about for a while but (according to a federal inquiry) misrepresented by the local authorities. The "tacogate" label-- http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/jan/30/cross-campus-13012/ --refers to the comment made by Mayor Maturo when asked what he planned to do to help reassure the Latino community after the revelations came out, and he responded that he would maybe have some tacos for dinner. The latter refers to the result of a particularly robust dunk in basketball. The dunker rises up high and embarrasses the defensive player by slamming the ball into the net over him. The hapless dunkee is said to be "posterized". (Not in the OED, which has an irrelevant sense for the word.) Here's ud: posterize: a Basketball term meaning to embarrass some one usually while slamming the ball over them. It refers to the guy whos being dunked on in basketball posters. "Wow that guy just got posterized!" This is also in the recent news because of something that occurred in one of last night's games…well, you can see it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbyOevVAYQI A related item that came up in the discussion of the Griffin dunk is "the full Mozgov", with which I was previously unfamiliar, but it can be googled. (Just the first hit for "full Mozgov" please.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 31 15:33:54 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:33:54 -0600 Subject: some _-ster_ items (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201311409.q0V6ZD2e010675@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I believe Rob Schneider's "making copies" character on Saturday Night Live did this regularly (1989-1992). > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 8:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > In the early '80s I noted that "-ster" was being used humorously to > create nonce nicknames based on one's given name. HDAS III should > have exx. > > For example, David Barnhart might be referred to as "the Davester." > (Not that he necessarily was.) Or addressed as "Davester," though I > think direct address was less common. > > It works best with monosyllabic names. > > It's still around, AFAIK. > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------- > --- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > --- > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > > >> Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > >> > >> dirty-trickster... > > > > nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: > > > > http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 31 18:44:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:44:40 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") Message-ID: In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass of a ray or a skate which has been modified and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) Earliest I see in Google Books: The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 19:44:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") In-Reply-To: <201201311844.q0V6iNu7019349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Intriguing topic, Joel. A PDF of The Scientific Monthly article mentioned is available in JSTOR. Title: Jenny Hanivers, Dragons and Basilisks in the Old Natural History Books and in Modern Times Author: E. W. Gudger The Scientific Monthly , Vol. 38, No. 6 (Jun., 1934), pp. 511-523 Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/15490 The article above says Gilbert P. Whitley wrote an article on this topic and published it in Australian Museum Magazine. A Google Books preview of the book "Mysterious creatures: a guide to cryptozoology" (2002) gives the following citation information. I have not checked this but there is a substantial probability that this is a cite for the earliest match Joel mentions: Gilbert P. Whitley, “Jenny Hanivers,” Australian Museum Magazine 3 (1928): 262–264 I came across a fully visible 1963 citation in the Internet Archive while trying to determine the cites above: Shadows in the sea: the sharks, skates and rays (1963) http://www.archive.org/details/shadowsinseashar00mcco http://www.archive.org/stream/shadowsinseashar00mcco#page/250/mode/2up [Begin excerpt on Page 251] The monstrosities were brought home (Europe, the United States) by sailors who bought them there. Sailors were seldom fishermen in ports where they could have caught them. Dr. Gilbert P. Whitley, the Australian ichthyologist, says that this trade has been going on for hundreds of years. The curios, peddled as Monkey Fish, Dragons, Basilisks, Mermaids, or Sea Eagles, are sometimes called "Jenny Hanivers" by seafarers. [End excerpt] Garson On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), > there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass > of a ray or a > skate which has been modified > and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) > > Earliest I see in Google Books: > > The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is > Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. > > p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny > Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." > > p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to > regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some > cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The > figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr > which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." > > And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, > part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. > > In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 19:56:08 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:56:08 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." In-Reply-To: <201201311403.q0V6ZD1O010675@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is also the possibility he said them in Russian, which Maclean had learned by 1918. DanG On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John > Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). > > Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia > article doesn't mention them. > > Real? Or Memorex? > > JL > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Tue Jan 31 20:00:29 2012 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:00:29 -0800 Subject: An odd example of legalese (a criminal or a congressman, and an unwritten comma) Message-ID: Lynne Hunter wrote: This reminds me of the humorous exchange in which a mother, teacher, or some such authority figure asks a disobedient child something like: "Do you want to grow up to be a criminal or a Congressman?" And the kid replies something like: "Sounds good to me!" Does anybody know the exact example? --------------------------------------------------------- I never heard that joke before, but as I began reading it, I was anticipating the punch line to be "Of course not!" (or maybe "Hell, no!") I could also imagine a punch line that construes the OR as disjunctive: "What's the difference?" I would like to point out that this joke actually works in print because of the timing nuance of an omitted-from-print, but possibly voiced, comma, which, had it been printed, would have dulled the written joke, if not spoiled it altogether: .. Do you want to grow up to be a criminal, or a congressman? This is the flipside to the superfluous presence of a written comma, which literally makes the joke in the story of the panda who eats, shoots and leaves (kudos to another Lynne. Lynne Truss) Brian Hitchcock Torrance, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 20:31:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:31:11 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." In-Reply-To: <201201311956.q0VJDJL6028357@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The following 1966 reference has a version of the saying, but it does not connect it to John Maclean. Cite: 1966, "Dictionary of Military and Naval Quotations" edited by Robert Debs Heinl, Category: bayonet, Page 31, Column 2, United States Naval Institute, Annapolis, Maryland. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end. Socialist slogan, early 20th century [End excerpt] The marxists.org website has a collection of speeches and articles by John MacLean. I tried a quick Google search in the marxists.org domain and could not find an instance of the quotation about bayonets. The saying may be worded differently, or I may have missed it: http://www.marxists.org/archive/maclean/index.htm Garson On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is also the possibility he said them in Russian, which Maclean > had learned by 1918. > DanG > > > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John >> Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). >> >> Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia >> article doesn't mention them. >> >> Real? Or Memorex? >> >> JL >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 20:37:09 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:37:09 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") In-Reply-To: <201201311844.q0V6iNu7019349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are the specifics for the Time magazine article. The archive is restricted to subscribers: Title: Animals: Jenny Hanivers Date: June 04, 1934 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,754234,00.html On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), > there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass > of a ray or a > skate which has been modified > and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) > > Earliest I see in Google Books: > > The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is > Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. > > p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny > Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." > > p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to > regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some > cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The > figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr > which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." > > And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, > part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. > > In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Tue Jan 31 21:21:32 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:21:32 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [SOAPM] Sick visits down In-Reply-To: Message-ID: January was slower than usual, but my perception is probably a bit distorted by having a second full time doc in January for the first time (previously just me and a NP). Another example of substituting me for I. Unfortunately if I say anything about it, I will be thrown off the list serve. Daniel Nussbaum II, MD, FAAP Retired Developmental Pediatrician New Bedford, Massachusetts I ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 21:40:00 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:40:00 -0500 Subject: to pinpoint-strike Message-ID: CNN says that U.S. drones can "pinpoint-strike targets." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 01:35:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:35:44 -0500 Subject: lackadaisical -- affixal gags In-Reply-To: <201112310552.pBU67h6j032056@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > nother involves the same principle, I think. For some speakers, no doubt. Possibly only for those who think that, e.g. "Luke, I am your baby daddy" is funny, despite the fact that _baby daddy_ can't possibly replace _father_ in that context, OTOH [Early Cuyler, addressing his son's girlfriend, the mother of Early's grandson], "Little gal, why settle for the sequel, when you can have the prequel? I'm your baby daddy daddy." Now, that's the proper way to use this dialect construction for laughs. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 1 15:24:19 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 10:24:19 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? Message-ID: That seems to be what team Romney is counting on. A Styrofoam campaign for president? Wish I'd thought of that. At the moment, I would wager $10,000 it works. Alex Castellanos, "Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign'," CNN Opinion (Google), Jan. 1, 2012, p not given Is _styrofoam_ replacing _Teflon_ in politics? David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 16:06:33 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:06:33 -0500 Subject: serial coordination Message-ID: Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? http://goo.gl/akG2k > Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent > and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 16:21:58 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 11:21:58 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011606.q01CA4xw004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would flip "both in" to "in both". That said, I knew what was meant. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: serial coordination > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? > > http://goo.gl/akG2k >> Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent >> and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 1 16:51:44 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:51:44 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Message-ID: Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 17:06:13 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 12:06:13 -0500 Subject: Wordnik (and COCA) in the Times Message-ID: (Several of our usual suspects are involved!) LH P.S. Anticipating Wilson's complaint, yes, they probably meant some of the Web's *voces* populi. Although arguably a mass use might have been intended. ====================== NOVELTIES: Defining Words, Without the Arbiters Wordnik, the online dictionary, brings some of the Web?s vox populi to the definition of words. It shows ?what?s out there right now,? one of its founders says. http://nyti.ms/uOBaep ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 19:43:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:43:23 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: <201201011524.q0166Scb001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:24 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > '_styrofoam_ campaign' "Mighty lean. What's it mean?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 19:58:37 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:58:37 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011622.q0166SRO022105@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another possibility: "??? both in style and in the way they pitch ???" I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Dan Goncharoff > Subject: ? ? ? Re: serial coordination > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would flip "both in" to "in both". That said, I knew what was meant. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? Victor Steinbok >> Subject: ? ? ? serial coordination >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Does this sound a touch questionable to anyone else? >> >> http://goo.gl/akG2k >>> Williams compared Castro to former Sox Jose Contreras, both in talent >>> and the way they pitch from a three-quarter arm angle. >> >> ? ? VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 20:06:37 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: "_sea_ mines" Message-ID: Like unto "_front_ slash"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 1 20:23:33 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: <201201011944.q0166SiR001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: David Barnhart wrote: >> '_styrofoam_ campaign' Thanks David: Here is a link and some excepts that may help to elucidate the metaphor. Of course, metaphors sometimes have unintended implications. The eHow website notes: "If you cut Styrofoam incorrectly, the plastic foam may crumble or break in the wrong spots. Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign' By Alex Castellanos, CNN Contributor updated 10:38 AM EST, Sun January 1, 2012 http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/01/opinion/castellanos-iowa-republican-field/index.html [Begin excerpt] Whether Romney has run a brilliantly passive race or a fortunate one does not matter. Passionless, but not hollow, his campaign has been as buoyant as Styrofoam. Romney may continue to float downriver to the nomination, full of holes, on a rigid structure of air. ... Romney's noncampaign campaign may also be a brilliant strategy for the general election, the perfect way to receive a billion dollar's worth of negative bullets from Team Obama. Styrofoam is light but stronger than it looks. A few more holes won't sink it. And styrofoam runs neither hot nor cold: It is hard to love but, for the same reason, hard to hate. [End excerpt] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 21:47:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:47:53 -0500 Subject: "_sea_ mines" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yup, another entry for the retronym files. Not quite up to the standard set by "biological mother", though, or "World War I". I'm also partial, this time of the quadrennium, to the "human poll". And of course now we have the "fiction novel". LH On Jan 1, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Like unto "_front_ slash"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 1 23:18:49 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:18:49 -0500 Subject: Is Teflon out and .... in? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > David Barnhart wrote: >>> '_styrofoam_ campaign' > > Thanks David: Here is a link and some excepts that may help to > elucidate the metaphor. Of course, metaphors sometimes have unintended > implications. The eHow website notes: "If you cut Styrofoam > incorrectly, the plastic foam may crumble or break in the wrong spots. It also wreaks havoc with the environment, but maybe for the relevant constituency that's not necessarily a bad thing. LH > > Mitt Romney's 'styrofoam campaign' > By Alex Castellanos, CNN Contributor > updated 10:38 AM EST, Sun January 1, 2012 > http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/01/opinion/castellanos-iowa-republican-field/index.html > > [Begin excerpt] > Whether Romney has run a brilliantly passive race or a fortunate one > does not matter. Passionless, but not hollow, his campaign has been as > buoyant as Styrofoam. Romney may continue to float downriver to the > nomination, full of holes, on a rigid structure of air. > ... > Romney's noncampaign campaign may also be a brilliant strategy for the > general election, the perfect way to receive a billion dollar's worth > of negative bullets from Team Obama. Styrofoam is light but stronger > than it looks. A few more holes won't sink it. And styrofoam runs > neither hot nor cold: It is hard to love but, for the same reason, > hard to hate. > [End excerpt] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Jan 1 23:37:12 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:37:12 -0500 Subject: Romney-boated??? Message-ID: Here's another (two in one day): "Gingrich says he's Romney-boated" from USA Today about a quarter hour ago. That is built off of "Swift-boated". David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 1 23:59:48 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:59:48 -0500 Subject: Romney-boated??? In-Reply-To: <201201012337.q01CA45e004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 6:37 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > "Gingrich says he's Romney-boated" from USA Today about a quarter hour > ago. That is built off of "Swift-boated". Gingrich was responding to question about whether he felt "swift-boated" by Romney's commercials in Iowa. So, since it followed an explicit reference to the founding form, I don't think "-boat(ed)" has achieved the level of Zwickyan libfix a la "-gate". --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 2 01:10:03 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 20:10:03 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201011959.q0166Siv001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson is exactly right about my motivation. Understanding what was being conveyed was not an issue. The same could be said about the following sentence, taken from a local police blotter: http://goo.gl/Fy4Ur > The store employee said that he confronted the suspect by the bus > stop, who tried to take the employee's cell phone when trying to call > 911 to report the theft. However, in this case, more people might consider this to be a serious violation. VS-) On 1/1/2012 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Another possibility: "??? both in style and in the way they pitch ???" > > I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as > "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, > but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 2 08:41:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 00:41:04 -0800 Subject: Rice cake Message-ID: Having eaten three mochi for the new year, I wondered about the OED treatment of the word. It has a nice etymology and definition. The common English equivalent, rice cake, is also there, but it seems to have more than one meaning, none of which match mochi. The word is not defined, but has four citations: 1683 P. Lorrain tr. P. Muret Rites Funeral 242 This being done, all the company sit down to eat Rice-cakes in the Church it self. 1769 E. Raffald Experienced Eng. Housekeeper (1778) 269 To make Rice Cake. 1862 S. St. John Life Forests Far East II. 42 A particular kind of rice-cake sent in very hot. 1996 Independent 30 Aug. i. 3/4 We tried to get her to eat something but all she'd have was rice cakes. The 1769 citation is a Moscow context (http://ow.ly/8fowA). The second one, I don't see on Google. The 1862 citation is in a Malay context (http://ow.ly/8fos0). It seems likely that the 1996 citation refers to puffed rice rice cakes (http://ow.ly/8fosQ). The earliest citation I see for "rice cake" in Google Books meaning mochi is 1806. "Journal of the Association of Military Surgeons of the United States," Volume 18, p. 445 (http://ow.ly/8foES) ----- On New Years day, on the anniversary of the foundation of the empire by the first Mikado Jimmo Tenno (660 years before Christ), and on the anniversary of the birth of the reigning Mikado, the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice cake (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. ----- I don't know what the white and red cakes are, but the same book describes "katapan" as follows: "... also a sort of sweet biscuit called "Katapan," as large as the palm of the hand and as thick as the little finger." This word is probably not worth of note in an English dictionary, though photos of the katapan can be seen at http://ow.ly/8foQn. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Mon Jan 2 16:24:38 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:24:38 -0500 Subject: Rice cake In-Reply-To: <201201020841.q0264qpr028473@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice cake (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. What are "katapans?" Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 2 16:57:09 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:57:09 -0500 Subject: serial coordination In-Reply-To: <201201020110.q0166SrX001660@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first of the two examples was copyedited, but the second was not. That makes the first mistake worse. DanG On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: serial coordination > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson is exactly right about my motivation. Understanding what was > being conveyed was not an issue. > > The same could be said about the following sentence, taken from a local > police blotter: > > http://goo.gl/Fy4Ur > > The store employee said that he confronted the suspect by the bus > > stop, who tried to take the employee's cell phone when trying to call > > 911 to report the theft. > > However, in this case, more people might consider this to be a serious > violation. > > VS-) > > On 1/1/2012 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Another possibility: "? both in style and in the way they pitch ?" > > > > I think that Victor's point has to do with what is now regarded as > > "mere" style and not with semantics. I, too, understand the meaning, > > but, like Victor, I also have a WTF?! reaction to its expression. > > -- > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 2 18:02:40 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:02:40 -0800 Subject: Rice cake In-Reply-To: <201201021624.q0264qnb007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As I mentioned, the word is defined in the 1806 book as a sweet biscuit. The Wikipedia article (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A0%85%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3) uses the orthography ? ??????? (literally hard bread) and says that an alternative name is haado takku (hard tack), making it seem like there are two different foods. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 2, 2012, at 8:24 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > the troops receive a particularly good allowance, comprising a soft rice ca= > ke (motchi), a white cake, a red cake, and katapans. > > What are "katapans?" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 2 22:18:33 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? Message-ID: I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=darcy_kieran&id=6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Jan 2 23:11:57 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:11:57 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <201201022218.q0264qvJ007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we're not limited to possessive apostrophes, there are plenty of names with decorative ones, like De'Andre. Neal On Jan 2, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for = > St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in = > box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in = > http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kie= > ran&id=3D6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with = > an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. = > (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player = > for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. = > Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) =20= > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 2 23:49:39 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:49:39 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <201201022218.q0264qvJ007864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for > St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in > box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in > http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kieran&id=3D6480215). > No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in > it but I can't think of others I've encountered. > (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player > for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. > Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) Elsewhere in the NCAA, Wake Forest's football team recently recruited a defensive end from Florida named God's Power Offor. (Like Mr. Achiuwa, he's originally from Nigeria.) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/18/ncaa-recruits-names/index.html On the Wake Forest website, he's Godspower Offor: http://www.wakeforestsports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/offor_godspower00.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 00:52:01 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 19:52:01 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether for equal time considerations there aren't athletes (or maybe artists) at some other college named Devil's Spawn Something-or-Other (or, in honor of both the great Braves' left-hander and awe-dropping, Devil's Spahn Warren). Oh, and to respond to Neal, yes, I should have specified that I was limiting my domain to true possessive apostrophes, so no D'Artagnans or D'Shawns or O'Briens need apply. LH On Jan 2, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for >> St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in >> box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in >> http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kieran&id=3D6480215). >> No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with an apostrophe in >> it but I can't think of others I've encountered. >> (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player >> for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. >> Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) > > Elsewhere in the NCAA, Wake Forest's football team recently recruited > a defensive end from Florida named God's Power Offor. (Like Mr. > Achiuwa, he's originally from Nigeria.) > > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/18/ncaa-recruits-names/index.html > > On the Wake Forest website, he's Godspower Offor: > > http://www.wakeforestsports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/offor_godspower00.html > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 01:16:17 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 20:16:17 -0500 Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? In-Reply-To: <517CC3A4-10D9-4C9E-AD20-A93A860A3516@ameritech.net> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > If we're not limited to possessive apostrophes, there are plenty of names with decorative ones, like De'Andre. > > Neal Or De'Anthony (Thomas), who ran for a 90+ yard touchdown in tonight's Rose Bowl game, holding on to both the ball and the decorative apostrophe. LH > > On Jan 2, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Proper names with apostrophes? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I don't know how common this is. But there's a basketball player for = >> St. John's University (NYC) named God'sgift Achiuwa (as he appears in = >> box scores) or God's Gift Achiuwa (as he appears on the web, e.g. in = >> http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/columns/story?columnist=3Ddarcy_kie= >> ran&id=3D6480215). No doubt not the only Christian (I assume) name with = >> an apostrophe in it but I can't think of others I've encountered. = >> (Maybe it's something about the Big East Conference; a basketball player = >> for rival Providence College a few years ago was named God Shammgod. = >> Too bad he never got the chance to go man-on-man against God'sgift.) =20= >> >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 08:29:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 03:29:34 -0500 Subject: Dothraki Message-ID: A double whammy--no word for X and 14 words for Y--a follow up (or summary, if you prefer) on NYT article ( http://goo.gl/NCvDF ). And all that in a /made up language/! http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2011/12/how-game-of-thrones-dothraki-language-came-to-be/ > ... > The Dothraki language in /Game of Thrones/ isn?t some > slopped-together, haphazard gibberish. As the NY Times tells it, it?s > a full-formed, logical vernacular put together by a linguistics expert > inspired by languages such as Swahili and Estonian. > David Peterson is the man behind dreaming up the entire Dothraki > language for television. After getting his degree from UCSD, he > created 12 other full languages and founded the first professional > organisation for people who like to create fake languages. (I?m > legitimately curious how many people are a part of that). > ... > Here?s how well Peterson understands the Dothraki: there?s no word for > toilet, but there are 14 for horses. Well done. I wonder how many words the new language has for horse's asses? I am not trying to disparage the enterprise. But inquiring minds want to know. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:03:41 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:03:41 -0500 Subject: mired Message-ID: I came across the following comment in a news story > ?We were continuing to be mired, and I think it?s important to move > legislation forward,? he said in an interview. The naked "mired" bothered me somewhat, so I was happy to discover that this seems to be perfectly ordinary formation (quite old, in fact). But then I started to compare quotes for mire v.1 and mired adj. Here's a partial list without dates, sources--or article ID. > Many of its competitors remained mired in bankruptcy. > Even though we are mired down in theoretical analyses, the reason why > the Third World is so desperate for some kind of new world order > begins to come through. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:04:31 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:04:31 -0500 Subject: mired In-Reply-To: <4F0326DD.7050806@gmail.com> Message-ID: The message was not even close to being finished--please ignore, for the time being. VS-) On 1/3/2012 11:03 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I came across the following comment in a news story > >> ?We were continuing to be mired, and I think it?s important to move >> legislation forward,? he said in an interview. > > The naked "mired" bothered me somewhat, so I was happy to discover > that this seems to be perfectly ordinary formation (quite old, in > fact). But then I started to compare quotes for mire v.1 and mired > adj. Here's a partial list without dates, sources--or article ID. > >> Many of its competitors remained mired in bankruptcy. >> Even though we are mired down in theoretical analyses, the reason why >> the Third World is so desperate for some kind of new world order >> begins to come through. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 16:47:08 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:47:08 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP Message-ID: From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want blown off that fucker" (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 3 16:56:23 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 08:56:23 -0800 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 16:57:16 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: pronuanciation In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Pronuanciation!" Puts nuance in pronunciation,like dialects do. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:02:20 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:02:20 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <3B61383E-AB68-4039-9AE9-AB48C5E45D75@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On 1/3/12 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >> >> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >> >> "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want >> blown off that fucker" >> >> (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >> off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > > discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). > I kind of thought so, but didn't have anything concrete to pin that on, and so didn't speculate. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 3 17:08:25 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:08:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <4F03349C.20105@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/3/2012 12:02 PM, Alice Faber wrote: >On 1/3/12 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >>> >>> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >>> >>>"We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want >>>blown off that fucker" >>> >>>(Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >>>off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) >> >>discussions of such uses of want/need geberally >>trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). >I kind of thought so, but didn't have anything concrete to pin that on, >and so didn't speculate. And what do we know gerbilly anyway? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 3 17:21:47 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:21:47 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch Message-ID: Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast last night, as the location of a news event: WITHOUTBURN The announcer had said "Woburn." Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). Any other hypotheses? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:51:09 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:51:09 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <3B61383E-AB68-4039-9AE9-AB48C5E45D75@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 3, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: >> >> From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: >> >> "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want >> blown off that fucker" >> >> (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown >> off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > > discussions of such uses of want/need geberally trace them back to Scotland (or to Scots-Irish more generally). > > arnold Michael Montgomery's work on this construction is especially explicit about the Scotch-Irish heritage. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Jan 3 17:55:48 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:55:48 -0500 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear Alice, That sort of construction is fine in Scotland, where the W PA/WV usage came from (via Ulster). I even picked it up myself during my Edinburgh years and still use it, even though I'm not from an American area that does. As far as I know, it is General Scots and Northumbrian--I'm not sure about the "Norse Crescent" dialects from Carlisle to York and Hull. Paul Johnston On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > -- > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 18:11:36 2012 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:11:36 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <201201031722.q03HMV4l030388@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/3/12 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast > last night, as the location of a news event: > > WITHOUTBURN > > The announcer had said "Woburn." > > Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" > could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The > only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or > thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) > corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > It's an autocorrect type thing. The captioner presumably was using one of those CART machines (sort of like a courtroom transcriber uses). As far as I can tell (one of the blogs I regularly follow is by someone who does captioning for classes and public lectures), users preload these machines with abbreviations and the like that are auto-expanded. "wo" for "without" would make perfect sense as a pre-load. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 3 18:16:12 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:16:12 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <201201031722.q03HMV4l030388@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast > last night, as the location of a news event: > > WITHOUTBURN > > The announcer had said "Woburn." > > Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" > could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The > only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or > thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) > corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > > Any other hypotheses? > > Joel > Well, since "Worcester" is pronounced [wIst@] or [wUst@], the captioner must have figured [wub at n] is really a "corruption" of Withoutburn, no doubt named for the major local industry, suntan lotion manufacture. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL Tue Jan 3 19:28:27 2012 From: lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL (Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 12:28:27 -0700 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031756.q03GrxxJ024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'd venture that it is used in North Yorkshire. I distinctly recall an exchange with my maternal grandmother (a Victorian-Edwardian Englishwoman from Saltburn-by-the-Sea), in which I'd volunteered to wash the woodwork in her house. Her reply: "It doesn't want washed." I've remembered the conversation these 60-odd years because the construction struck me as singular at the time. (My grandmother probably used that phrasing on a regular basis, but I never paid close attention after remarking that particular instance.) Lynne Hunter ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Poster: Paul Johnston Subject: Re: Modal + PP ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- That sort of construction is fine in Scotland... As far as I know, it is General Scots and Northumbrian--I'm not sure about the "Norse Crescent" dialects from Carlisle to York and Hull. Paul Johnston On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We're in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don't want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) > -- > ======================================================================= ====== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 3 22:16:54 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:16:54 -0500 Subject: Galut Message-ID: OED has only one pronunciation of diaspora (diphthong, followed by the open, stressed ae, then two schwas). I have recently been exposed to several people stress the [o] instead. While looking up diaspora, I thought about "Galut". OED has no entry, although the word does occur in a quotation under klezmer. There is also the entry for Resh Galuta, where Galut is mentioned in the etymology note. But no separate entry for Galut. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 4 00:30:29 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 19:30:29 -0500 Subject: Closed captioning glitch In-Reply-To: <4F0344D8.7010403@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: Sounds right on. Not exactly spelling correction, rather spelling completion. The real time captioning seems too often a day late and a sentence short. Is anyone working on using voice recognition software? Joel At 1/3/2012 01:11 PM, Alice Faber wrote: >On 1/3/12 12:21 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>Seen in a closed caption on a WCVB Boston (channel 5) news broadcast >>last night, as the location of a news event: >> >>WITHOUTBURN >> >>The announcer had said "Woburn." >> >>Presumably from "w/o burn", but I am unable to figure out how "w/o" >>could have been seen, or how "without" could have been heard. The >>only explanation I can hypothesize is that the captioning person (or >>thing) typed "WOBURN" and a spell-checking thing (exorcist?) >>corrected that to WITHOUTBURN (without an internal space). > >It's an autocorrect type thing. The captioner presumably was using one >of those CART machines (sort of like a courtroom transcriber uses). As >far as I can tell (one of the blogs I regularly follow is by someone who >does captioning for classes and public lectures), users preload these >machines with abbreviations and the like that are auto-expanded. "wo" >for "without" would make perfect sense as a pre-load. > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Wed Jan 4 02:20:58 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:20:58 -0600 Subject: Modal + PP In-Reply-To: <201201031647.q0368N9a016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 01/03/2012 10:47 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Modal + PP > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a forum posting about today's wind storm in the UK: > > "We?re in central Scotland. The Forth Bridge is shut, cos you don?t want > blown off that fucker" > > (Yes, it's *that* kind of forum, but I was struck by the "want blown > off" construction from somewhere other than western PA and its environs.) I suspect it was once used in one Ulster County NY community: Ireland Corners. Is it used anywhere in Canada? -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 02:47:45 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 21:47:45 -0500 Subject: Public domain Message-ID: http://www.law.duke.edu/cspd/publicdomainday/2012/pre-1976 -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 03:16:30 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:16:30 -0500 Subject: Wordnik (and COCA) in the Times In-Reply-To: <201201011706.q01CA40U004074@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ? Anticipating Wilson's complaint Hey! WTF?!;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 03:24:22 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:24:22 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Ecology" Message-ID: ecology (OED 1876) 1875 _The Academy_ 18 Sept. 309 (British Periodicals) Seeing that the scope of Botany differs from that of Zoology only in the fact that the one deals with plants, the other with animals, we might expect that physiology, morphology, oecology, and taxonomy in each would have assumed about the same relative importance to one another. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 03:55:35 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:55:35 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game Message-ID: "[The quarterback] throws long and? _incompletes_." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:22:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:22:18 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040356.q03LL3FF024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? VS-) On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "[The quarterback] throws long and??? _incompletes_." > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jan 4 04:29:11 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:29:11 -0500 Subject: a little ahead of ourselves ... Message-ID: In January 2013 .. Prefix of the year: _post-_ (for all the fallen tyrants) Word of the year: _election_ (for all the hoopla) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:31:47 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:31:47 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040422.q040l0Rj028679@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > _incompletes_ The only thing of interest is the use of simple "incompletes" in place of "fails to succeed in his attempt to throw an complete pass" or any one of possibly dozens of other strings. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 04:42:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:42:26 -0500 Subject: One of Reagan's first acts as governor? Message-ID: He killed the Dept. of Geography at Berkeley as being otiose. Everybody knows that Mexico forms part of North America. The guy calling the Sugar Bowl game between Michigan and Virginia Tech mentions that VA Tech's only regular-season loss was to Clemson, "which will be playing another college from Virginia, _West Virginia_ University." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 04:49:19 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:49:19 -0500 Subject: a little ahead of ourselves ... In-Reply-To: <000001ccca99$68b98ee0$3a2caca0$@com> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2012, at 11:29 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > In January 2013 .. > > > > Prefix of the year: _post-_ (for all the fallen tyrants) > > > > Word of the year: _election_ (for all the hoopla) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ "Buyer's remorse" (for the post-election)? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 4 05:09:20 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 00:09:20 -0500 Subject: gay, straight, or lying Message-ID: My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and lying"? http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common among gay men before then. Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 06:25:02 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 22:25:02 -0800 Subject: gay, straight, or lying In-Reply-To: <201201040526.q03JevDa016809@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't think logic has anything to do with it. It sounds like to me a pattern or snowclone of sorts--monosyllable, monosyllable, or bisyllable--but I can't think of any other phrases that fit. Maybe something that ends in "crazy." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 3, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say > bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and > lying"? > http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ > > The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common > among gay men before then. > > Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 07:22:15 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:22:15 -0500 Subject: gay, straight, or lying In-Reply-To: <201201040526.q03LL3Md024572@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for an interesting question and article, Neal. Here is an earlier cite for a variant phrasing of the three-way disjunction. Cite: 1997 October 14, The Advocate, Searching for that perfect pair of genes by Dean Hamer, Start Page 65, Quote Page 66, Published by Here Publishing. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=w2MEAAAAMBAJ&q=liar#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Sexologists like to joke that there are just three sexual orientations ? gay, straight, and liar ? but the real world is populated by many people who are in between. [End excerpt] Here is one possible way in which the phrase may have evolved. Someone stated "each person is gay, straight or bisexual". This evoked the retort "each person is gay, straight, or a liar". The implicit three-way disjunction is "each person is gay (and willing to acknowledge it), straight (and willing to acknowledge it) or a liar who claims to be bisexual". Note, I am not stating that this is my opinion! Also, these simplistic disjunctions do not include intersex people, asexual people etcetera. Also note, in this analysis the phrase initially was applied to all people and not to bisexuals exclusively. This accords with the use in the Advocate. The podcast hosts that Neal refers to apparently applied the phrase to bisexuals. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: gay, straight, or lying > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My question on the blog: Why do those who don't believe in bisexuality say > bisexuals are "gay, straight, or lying" instead of "gay or straight and > lying"? > http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/gay-straight-or-lying/ > > The earliest I've seen it in print is 2003, but it was supposedly common > among gay men before then. > > Neal > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 4 13:57:28 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 05:57:28 -0800 Subject: "liberal democracy" Message-ID: from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? Etc. etc. - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 14:34:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:34:03 -0500 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: <20120104055728.4534756C@m0005298.ppops.net> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jan 4 14:58:52 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:58:52 -0500 Subject: Word Predictions for 2012 Message-ID: I predict that the terms _negative ad_ [1930?] (and its derivatives) and _Super Pac_ [1982?] will re-blossom with a vengeance among news media types. More, when it's spotted. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 15:16:00 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:16:00 +0000 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:34 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 4 15:29:25 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 09:29:25 -0600 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone used?" Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 4 16:47:39 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:47:39 -0600 Subject: Google books (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Another discussion of the shortcomings of Google Books: http://ehbritten.blogspot.com/2011/10/cleaning-up-after-google.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 4 17:33:02 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 17:33:02 +0000 Subject: "liberal democracy" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3CD9B0@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: My understanding of "liberal democracy" is more along the lines of the Wikipedia article with that name. Wikipedia also has an article on "illiberal democracy," although it doesn't seem to be very well-sourced. I presume that "liberal" is used in the broad sense, as in "liberal thought" or "liberal arts," rather than the liberal/conservative political dichotomy. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:16 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:34 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "liberal democracy" On Jan 4, 2012, at 8:57 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > from a news story on Netscape News, discussing the possibility of a re-united Korea: > > http://channels.isp.netscape.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-+&idq=/ff/story/1001%2F20120104%2F4710.htm&sc=+ > > "South Korea and its U.S. ally would likely balk at anything other than a Korea that's a liberal democracy, or at least moving in that direction." > > My problem: what is meant by "liberal" in the phrase "liberal democracy"? > > Is there such a thing as a "conservative democracy"? If such a beastie exists, would the US be happy with a conservative democracy in Korea? > > Would "illiberal democracy" be an oxymoron? > > Etc. etc. > > - Jim Landau (not partisan, merely baffled) > I'd classify Russia as a non-liberal democracy, given the constraints on freedom of press, religion, assembly, etc. Maybe Egypt is becoming one. I think it's the presence and enforcement of such liberties that distinguish liberal democracies from the other kind, which as far as I know don't have a distinguishing label. "Liberal" is not the antonym of "conservative" in this context (or indeed, in most of the non-U.S. world). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 4 18:11:28 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:11:28 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201040422.q040l0Rj028679@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No. The QB could throw it long and complete the pass. "Throw" does not imply "catch". DanG On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is > incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the > outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? > > VS-) > > On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > "[The quarterback] throws long and? _incompletes_." > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 18:34:32 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:34:32 -0800 Subject: Hotpot Message-ID: The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): ----- One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:38:36 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:38:36 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > No. The QB could throw it long and complete the pass. "Throw" does not > imply "catch". > DanG especially since the announcer was using "throw(ing)" before the results were known. It's like the difference between, to adapt an example from Grice, "She tried to solve the problem" (implies lack of success, although the implication is cancelable) vs. "She's trying to solve the problem" (no such implication). "He threw it long" may imply incompletion; "He's throwing long" doesn't. And "He threw it long 15 times" just implies that not all of the passes were completed, not that each of them was incomplete. I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" here. LH > > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> OK, the verb. But doesn't "throwing long" imply that the pass is >> incomplete? Would it not be "going long" if we don't yet know the >> outcome? Or am I just splitting hairs? >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/3/2012 10:55 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> "[The quarterback] throws long and? _incompletes_." >>> >>> -- >>> -Wilson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:52:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:52:03 -0500 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms Message-ID: Pretty obvious, but there's no specific entry under _romance_ in the OED that covers the promise of those Low-T meds to allow you to enjoy "more romance when you want it". (That one is from "Ageless Male" radio commercial, but competitors have similar come-ons.) They also ask "Is your romantic life suffering?" In neither case are the commercials alluding to their prospective clients' inability to wine and dine prospective inamoratas (or inamoratos). While the OED doesn't gloss _romantic_ as 'sexual', the lemma in 5c(b), 'Desirous of or wanting love and romance. Later also: in the mood for sexual intercourse; sexually aroused; 'turned on'' flirts with it. But _romantic life_, like the earlier _love life_, may be established enough as ways to specifically signify (without mentioning) 'sex life' to merit an entry. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 18:52:25 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 10:52:25 -0800 Subject: Fang nu and luo hun Message-ID: 1. The word "fang nu" appeared again in the Seattle Times today, with a translation of "house slaves." A fang nu is a person whose home loan takes such a large part of their paycheck, they become like a slave working to pay it off. It seems likely this is f?ngn? (??) (http://forum.hellomandarin.com/viewthread.php?tid=58). "China's housing bubble is losing air," David Pierson, Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/13/business/la-fi-china-housing-bubble-20111213) ----- That's news to millions of Chinese for whom real estate ownership has become an obsession. The mania has cemented itself into the national zeitgeist, inspiring a wildly popular soap opera, songs and even new slang. Debt-strapped home buyers have been dubbed fang nu, or house slaves. Couples who wed without owning a home are said to have a luo hun, or a naked marriage. ----- The earliest I see this term on Google is August 21, 2007: "House slaves and brokebacks find true calling," The Standard (Reuters) (http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=10&art_id=51682&sid=15017937&con_type=1&d_str=20070821) ----- Economic reforms and soaring rates of home ownership have coined a new moniker for those struggling to pay off home loans: fang nu, or "house slaves." ----- 2. Also in that first citation above is "luo hun," meaning a "naked marriage" or a no-frills marriage. It appears to be lu?h?n (??) (http://www.kukuspeak.com/kouyu/huati/1482.html). The earliest I see this on Google is January 7, 2010: Chinese youth take to ?naked weddings?, Venkatesan Vembu (http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_chinese-youth-take-to-naked-weddings_1332143) ----- ?It?s not what you think,? Li says. ?A luo hun (?naked wedding?) is a ?no-frills civil wedding?: it means getting married without a house of our own, a car, a wedding ring ? or even a wedding ceremony.? ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 4 18:59:16 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: Hotpot In-Reply-To: <24B8DB9F-D1F0-4F88-BE00-E6DB4C1FEA09@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. > > The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." > > In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. > > On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). > > What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): > > ----- > One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... > > Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... > > They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. > ----- > As a longtime cat owner, on reading "cat hotpot", I first pictured a much more innocent (or at least more cat-friendly) scenario, in which the billionaire was sitting around the hotpot with some of his pet cats and unwisely decided to sample the fare. (I had a hotpot in Shanghai that included live shrimp which had to be caught and dumped in the stock before it wriggled off the plate; I'm sure that would be a favorite with kitties, although they'd probably just as soon dispense with the cooking, much less the spicy sauces.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 19:54:10 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:54:10 -0800 Subject: Hotpot In-Reply-To: <201201041859.q04INqaK000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Hotpot > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> The ADS archives have a brief mention of hotpot: "Shinsollo_ Fancy Hotpot...132" (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0209D&L=ADS-L&P=R8170&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches). It's a 2002 post of Barry Popik's, but this particular citation appears to not be dated. >> >> The OED's definition is slightly different: "A stew of meat or fish and potatoes (and often other vegetables), traditionally oven-cooked in an earthenware pot with a tight-fitting cover." >> >> In Chinese, Japanese and Korean cooking, a hotpot is a pot filled with a liquid and food and cooked at the table. Diners take food from the pot while it's cooking. This is eaten in restaurants and in homes. >> >> On Wikipedia, this is called "hot pot, "Chinese fondue" and "steamboat" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_pot). >> >> What brought this to mind was an article of a billionaire poisoned to death with a cat hotpot (http://news.yahoo.com/police-think-poisoned-cat-meat-killed-china-tycoon-040529940.html): >> >> ----- >> One of the men, local official Huang Guang, was arrested by police on Friday on suspicion of poisoning the hotpot with a toxic herb.... >> >> Huang, deputy director of agriculture in Guangdong's Bajia township, is suspected of poisoning the hotpot with the herb Gelsemium elegans, according to a statement on the microblog of the investigating police.... >> >> They had eaten at the hotpot restaurant before, but this time the cat meat dish tasted a little different, the report said. >> ----- >> > > As a longtime cat owner, on reading "cat hotpot", I first pictured a much more innocent (or at least more cat-friendly) scenario, in which the billionaire was sitting around the hotpot with some of his pet cats and unwisely decided to sample the fare. (I had a hotpot in Shanghai that included live shrimp which had to be caught and dumped in the stock before it wriggled off the plate; I'm sure that would be a favorite with kitties, although they'd probably just as soon dispense with the cooking, much less the spicy sauces.) I purposely didn't put "cat hotpot" into the subject line to try to avoid that scenario :) BTW, I see that I forgot to check the ADS archives for "hot pot." As noted there, the OED has "Mongolian hot pot" under "Mongolian." The archives say that the OED has it from 1967 (Barry Popik: http://ow.ly/8ij9K), but I see it as 1992. (That post also has the spelling of "barbeque.") According to Rima McKinzey, hot pots were for sale in the Bay Area around 1967 (http://ow.ly/8iiu1). I might have missed one, but it appears the earliest the archives have it is a post from Barry Popik taking it back to 1972: http://ow.ly/8iiTV. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 4 20:59:41 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:59:41 -0800 Subject: Kathoey Message-ID: The OED does not have an entry on "kathoey," but it does occur twice: 1. sex - third sex: N.Y. Mag. 21 Nov. 77 He?tracks down?the ?third sex? hijras of India, the ?lady-boy? kathoey of Thailand, [etc.]. 2. ladyboy: Etymology: < lady n. + boy n.1 In later use, chiefly rendering Thai kathoey. This entry defines "ladyboy" as: An effeminate man; a person of indeterminate gender. Now chiefly: (esp. in Thailand) a man who adopts a feminine appearance (and may undergo breast augmentation). I wonder about the expression "indeterminate gender." Wikipedia (providing the alternative spelling "katoey" and ????? as the Thai spelling) says it is a third gender, not an indeterminate one. Since gender is culturally constructed, we should expect that not all genders fit into those constructed in English-speaking countries, but calling a third gender indeterminate is surely misleading. Wikipedia also notes the claim that the word "kathoey" used to mean intersexual. This is found in Peter Jackson's* "Performative Genders, Perverse Desires" (http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue9/jackson.html), which if true, means that perhaps the early OED citations belong with a separate definition. Jackson also cites himself in that article, saying that "kathoey" emerged to mean male-to-female transgender/transsexual people in the mid-1960s. Wikipedia also provides some feminizing procedures used in addition to the breasts augmentation noted in the OED, and the article says that "ladyboy" has "become popular across South East Asia." Google has more than 700K raw hits for "kathoey," including one for a book titled "The Third Sex: Kathoey: Thailand's Ladyboys" (http://www.amazon.com/Third-Sex-Kathoey-Thailands-Ladyboys/dp/0285636685), * No, not that one, fellow LoTR geeks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Jackson_(academic) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Thu Jan 5 00:27:23 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 07:27:23 +0700 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's the usual one among non-white young people in NYC, or was when I was teaching high school at the end of the 1990s at least. Interestingly, they were completely unaware of honkey. Sent from my iPad On Jan 4, 2012, at 22:29, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line > backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 > > "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football > field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone > used?" > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 04:51:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:51:35 -0500 Subject: ambulette Message-ID: While on a bus in Queens, I noticed at least three different vans labeled "Ambulette". From where I was sitting--standing, actually--all three appeared to have been handicapped transportation services (that is, transporting people in wheelchairs or those otherwise having limited mobility). A quick OneLook check confirmed it, although only InfoPlease and Dictionary.com had it and both got it from RH Unabridged. It does not appear to be in the OED. I am also not sure if the use might not be limited to the NYC metro area. I have seen it used previously, although I could not pinpoint the location. But it's not something that I've seen on regular basis in other cities. I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:31:22 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:31:22 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201041838.q04GEps0006901@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication regarding completion. So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. VS-) On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > here. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:39:14 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:39:14 -0500 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201041529.q0467h0W000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone used? Who knew that it ever was? Aren't Georgians routinely referred to as "Georgia crackers," like unto "Indiana hoosiers"? Does no one else recall the Atlanta Crackers of minor-league baseball, briefly a farm team of the St. Louis Cardinals? Tim McCarver, once the Cardinals' catcher, was called up from the Crackers, in the '60's. How about the Atlanta Black Crackers of the old Negro League? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:15:13 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:15:13 -0500 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201050027.q04KSaqI006901@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > they were completely unaware of honkey Were those students at all aware of Huey, Bobby, and the history of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense? If they weren't, then it wouldn't surprise me that they were totally unfamiliar with that organization's special lingo. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 05:41:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 00:41:31 -0500 Subject: ambulette In-Reply-To: <201201050451.q04LLYE2004831@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... Not by me! I was thinking, "A misspelling of _amulet_ by a BE speaker." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 06:47:40 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 01:47:40 -0500 Subject: dime Message-ID: I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance can't hurt. "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I believe, Oceans Eleven: "You're in Barney." "Say what?" "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" "No." Or something like that... This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) http://goo.gl/YFOVy > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > well, you're in Barney. > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. http://goo.gl/vslbu > Lesson Learned: If you?re in ?barney,? you?re in trouble. This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 08:27:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 03:27:31 -0500 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms In-Reply-To: <201201041852.q04INqZY000504@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > _romantic life_ Back in the day, asking, "How's your family fife?" was gay-BE code for ascertaining whether the man addressed was also gay. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 5 14:44:33 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:44:33 -0500 Subject: ambulette In-Reply-To: <4F052C57.9010700@gmail.com> Message-ID: A mass transit vehicle, employed e.g. when there have been multiple-car accidents on the interstate, for female ambulance chasers? Joel At 1/4/2012 11:51 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >While on a bus in Queens, I noticed at least three different vans >labeled "Ambulette". From where I was sitting--standing, actually--all >three appeared to have been handicapped transportation services (that >is, transporting people in wheelchairs or those otherwise having limited >mobility). A quick OneLook check confirmed it, although only InfoPlease >and Dictionary.com had it and both got it from RH Unabridged. It does >not appear to be in the OED. > >I am also not sure if the use might not be limited to the NYC metro >area. I have seen it used previously, although I could not pinpoint the >location. But it's not something that I've seen on regular basis in >other cities. I'm sure I'll be corrected on this... > > VS-) > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 5 14:54:58 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:54:58 -0600 Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201050027.q04LLY8W004831@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I've been called a cracker myself, and wasn't surprised to see the word in print. I didn't particularly find that to be novel. The reason I posted was the use of "C-word" as a euphemism. First, I wouldn't think "cracker" needs a euphemism -- it doesn't seem all that offensive to me -- and second, to my mind, "C-word" refers to "cunt" (which would require a euphemism in polite speech. Not that we _aren't_ polite here, but ...) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Michael Newman > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:27 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > It's the usual one among non-white young people in NYC, or was when I was > teaching high school at the end of the 1990s at least. Interestingly, they > were completely unaware of honkey. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 4, 2012, at 22:29, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > wrote: > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------- > --- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > > Subject: "C-Word" = cracker (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > --- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Buckeye-line > > backer-calls-foul-on-race-baiting-Ga?urn=ncaaf-wp12427 > > > > "I'm sure there was a slew of unsavory things said on that football > > field, but who knew the "C-word" was still a racial slur that anyone > > used?" > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 5 14:58:35 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:58:35 -0500 Subject: ambulette (1980) Message-ID: Also an entry in _The Barnhart Dictionary Companion_ (Vol. 5.3-4, c. 1989). The earliest quote I had at the time was 1980. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 17:47:19 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 12:47:19 -0500 Subject: slow up Message-ID: I am not ranting against "slow up", but here's a comment (by Brendan Shanahan) that includes both "slow up" and "slow down". I am not entirely sure if there is supposed to be a contrast between the two. So it's mostly for the files. http://goo.gl/IgAZV > However, on this play Carcillo slows up and gets behind Gilbert just > as Gilbert begins slowing down and bracing himself for some contact, > Carcillo explodes into him causing a violent crash into the boards. [Shanahan is a retired hockey player who is now the NHL disciplinary policy enforcer.] VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Jan 5 18:07:18 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:07:18 -0500 Subject: For the backform(at)ed compound verb files Message-ID: Heard on NPR this morning about how a president "recess-appointed" someone (comparing to Obama's quasi-recess-appt of Cordray yesterday). Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 18:23:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: For the backform(at)ed compound verb files In-Reply-To: <201201051807.q05G58gN008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quasy-recess or quasy-appointment? There is some question about the former, but no doubt about the latter. VS-) On 1/5/2012 1:07 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > Heard on NPR this morning about how a president "recess-appointed" someone (comparing to Obama's quasi-recess-appt of Cordray yesterday). > > Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 19:29:34 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:29:34 -0500 Subject: This particular use of _in_ Message-ID: If you _stay in_ saying that this was a placebo effect, then I answer, "I like this placebo!" In BE, at least, it ain't nothing wrong with using _stay_ in the meanings, "continue, keep, reside in, always be," and, perhaps, in others. So, "If you stay saying?" perfectly okay. But, "? stay _in_ saying ?"? Nokay. The context is a discussion of two pieces of audiophile software - or should that be, "two audiophile softwares"? - in which A writes that he hears a distinction between the outputs of X and Y and that of X is clearly superior. B writes that this erroneous opinion was merely the "placebo effect" resulting from the fact that A had had to pay for X, whereas Y is freeware. (This extension of the meaning of "placebo effect" is, IMO, also interesting.) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 21:51:01 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:51:01 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201050622.q0569bm6019055@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. DanG On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched > a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete > quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on > expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that > "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the > receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long > distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I > assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his > receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" > means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). > A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication > regarding completion. > > So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may > also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. > > VS-) > > On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > > here. LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 5 22:07:50 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 17:07:50 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: <201201052151.q05KH1bj008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an example from GB where "throws long" does not mean overthrows. It probably means "throwing the ball a long distance". Victor noted that this was a possibility. I am posting this as a concrete illustration. 4th & Inches - Page 146 books.google.com John Paul Weier - 2006 - 164 pages - Google eBook - Preview No. 1 drops back, he has time, he throws long, and it's caught by No. 22, who cuts right to avoid a would-be tackier and gets hit from behind. On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, > although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for > long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. > DanG > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched >> a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete >> quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on >> expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that >> "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the >> receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long >> distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I >> assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his >> receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" >> means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). >> A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication >> regarding completion. >> >> So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may >> also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" >> > here. LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 5 22:48:07 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:48:07 -0600 Subject: full text databases (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Starting several years ago, Mark Mandel has hosted a web page listing full-text databases that I put together (thanks, Mark!). I finally got around to re-compiling it, and am using Google Sites to host it. This group may find it useful. I'd appreciate any feedback offered, comments, additions, suggestions, etc. It still needs a little tweaking, but is at the 90% level of completion, I'd guess. It is mostly the old list, but with additions. I've found many more student newspapers, for example. https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Let me know . . . Bill Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Jan 5 22:48:49 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 14:48:49 -0800 Subject: "liberal democracy" Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:16:00 zone plus 0000 (Z time?) "Shapiro, Fred" wrote: I assume Turkey can be classified as a conservative democracy, and probably various countries in Eastern Europe as well. The results of the Arab spring, if the democratic aspects of it last, will be very conservative democracies. And what is the United States itself if not a conservative democracy? I assume the US would be very happy with a conservative democracy in Korea. Your post leaves me with several questions: 1. What do you mean by "conservative democracy"? 2. If by "conservative democracy" you mean an oligopoly run by big business, then do you mean to include the word "democracy"? 3. If you construe "liberal" in the Napoleonic-era sense, then "conservative" would refer to those who prefer a monarchial or aristocratic goverment, in which case "conservative democracy" is an oxymoron. 4. If you construe "conservative" (as many people do) as pro-business, then the corresponding definition of "liberal" is "pro-xxx" or perhaps "anti-xxx". What should "xxx" be? 5. Would the US be "very happy" with a liberal democracy (your definition) in Korea? 6. As there is a possibility that North Korea will become part of the existing South Korea, we need a statement as to how to classify the existing government in South Korea. 7. Does the fact that the United States does NOT have either direct or parliamentary aelection of the executive mean that that the United States is not a democracy? - James A. Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Thu Jan 5 23:16:18 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:16:18 -0800 Subject: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Message-ID: The second paragraph of today's George Will column contains an "axiom" which I have never heard before: Rick Santorum has become central because Iowa Republicans ignored an axiom that is as familiar as it is false: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Republicans, supposedly hierarchical, actually are ? let us say the worst ? human. They crave fun. Supporting Mitt Romney still seems to many like a duty, the responsible thing to do. Suddenly, supporting Santorum seems like a lark, partly because a week or so ago he could quit complaining about media neglect and start having fun, which is infectious. Has anybody heard this proverb (or whatever) before? The closest I can think of is a line by (I think) Tip O'Neil. He was delivering a set of FACETIOUS "Republicans do x, Democrats do y" statements, and ended with something like "Democrats believe in sex. That's why there are more Democrats than Republicans". WARNING to anyone intending to read this particular George Will column---only the first part is amusing. The last part is a polemic. - James A. Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 00:21:43 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:21:43 -0500 Subject: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. In-Reply-To: <201201052316.q05KH1jf008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: James A. Landau asked about a phrase in a recent George Will column. Barry Popik examined the phrase. Below is a link to his webpage on the topic. Bill Clinton was a locus for popularization though he did not claim coinage. ?Democrats fall in love; Republicans fall in line? Entry from January 01, 2010 Short link: http://goo.gl/Wy3yq Long link: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/democrats_fall_in_love_republicans_fall_in_line/ Garson > The second paragraph of today's George Will column contains an "axiom" which I have never heard before: > > > Rick Santorum has become central because Iowa Republicans ignored an axiom that is as familiar as it is false: Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. Republicans, supposedly hierarchical, actually are ? let us say the worst ? human. They crave fun. Supporting Mitt Romney still seems to many like a duty, the responsible thing to do. Suddenly, supporting Santorum seems like a lark, partly because a week or so ago he could quit complaining about media neglect and start having fun, which is infectious. > > > Has anybody heard this proverb (or whatever) before? > > The closest I can think of is a line by (I think) Tip O'Neil. He was delivering a set of FACETIOUS "Republicans do x, Democrats do y" statements, and ended with something like "Democrats believe in sex. That's why there are more Democrats than Republicans". > > WARNING to anyone intending to read this particular George Will column---only the first part is amusing. The last part is a polemic. > > - James A. Landau > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 00:46:45 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches Message-ID: Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". http://goo.gl/rdp6u > The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different > words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization > doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT > industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such > as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile > management'. > However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization > solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is > managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a > distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and > application layers. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 01:07:14 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:07:14 -0500 Subject: ESPN Sugar Bowl game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that -- "Throwing long" can mean one of two things, "throwing a long pass" (might or might not be caught) or "overthrowing a receiver" (is not caught). Ditto for "throwing short". "Throwing deep" can mean only one thing, "throwing a long pass" (but it might or might not be caught). Joel At 1/5/2012 05:07 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >Here is an example from GB where "throws long" does not mean >overthrows. It probably means "throwing the ball a long distance". >Victor noted that this was a possibility. I am posting this as a >concrete illustration. > >4th & Inches - Page 146 >books.google.com >John Paul Weier - 2006 - 164 pages - Google eBook - Preview >No. 1 drops back, he has time, he throws long, and it's caught by No. >22, who cuts right to avoid a would-be tackier and gets hit from >behind. > >On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > > Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I think you are mistaken about "throwing long" always meaning overthrowing, > > although I can see it being hard to distinguish the "throwing the ball for > > long yardage" from "overthrowing the receiver" without context. > > DanG > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: ESPN Sugar Bowl game > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> To be honest, I don't follow football that closely and have not watched > >> a whole game in several years (I am not sure I've put in a complete > >> quarter, except for a couple of NFL playoff games). So my memory on > >> expression frequency may be faulty. But my recollection was that > >> "throwing long" most of the times implies overthrowing the > >> receiver--although it can also just mean throwing the ball a long > >> distance. If I hear a comment, "He threw long time and time again," I > >> assume it refers to a quarterback who has repeatedly overthrown his > >> receivers, not just throwing the ball a long distance. "Going long" > >> means a particularly long throw (over 20 yards, or something like that). > >> A "long throw" (noun) would be just that, without an implication > >> regarding completion. > >> > >> So, right or wrong, this is the clarification of what I meant. It may > >> also differ regionally or simply from one commentator to another. > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> On 1/4/2012 1:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> > ...I'm not sure i see a difference between "throwing" and "going" > >> > here. LH > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:22:02 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:22:02 +0000 Subject: _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms Message-ID: fife????? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Wilson Gray To: Date: Thursday, January 5, 2012 3:27:31 AM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] _romance_ and _romantic (life)_ as euphemisms On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > _romantic life_ Back in the day, asking, "How's your family fife?" was gay-BE code for ascertaining whether the man addressed was also gay. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:37:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:37:28 -0500 Subject: cheap shot/dirty play Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 01:53:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:53:35 -0500 Subject: calico Message-ID: Seems more than a bit out of date: > 3. b. Coloured in a way suggestive of printed calico; variegated, > piebald. Chiefly of horses. Also as n., a calico horse. /U.S./ The latest quote is from 1954. > 1954 J. Potts /Go, Lovely Rose/ (1955) ix. 60 Havelka's calico cat ... > was taking a fastidious stroll. It's the only one that mentions a calico cat, even though this may now be the dominant use (as opposed to horses). In fact, calico (not just "calico cat") is now common in reports on cats of variegated or partially striped coloring--and there are a lot more calico cats around than calico horses. But there is more: http://goo.gl/p6zm7 > While white appears to be the most rare at an estimated 1 in 100 > million, coming in second place with and approximate 1 in 30 million > is the calico lobster. I?m very happy to announce we?ve recently > receive a stunningly beautiful calico lobster from our friends at > Chatham Fish and Lobster Co. Is there a particular reason why there is no calico adj. that corresponds to calico n. 3.? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 02:05:46 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 20:05:46 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime Message-ID: But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? Gerald Cohen Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I believe, Oceans Eleven: "You're in Barney." "Say what?" "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" "No." Or something like that... This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) http://goo.gl/YFOVy > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > well, you're in Barney. > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. http://goo.gl/vslbu > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 6 02:11:02 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 18:11:02 -0800 Subject: from my inbox Message-ID: Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream is now available in Israel in the following flavors: Wailing Wallnut Moishemellow Mazel Toffee Chazalnut Oy Ge-malt Mi Ka-mocha Bernard Malamint Berry Pr'i Hagafen Choc-Eilat Chip Simchas T'Oreo It should be noted that all of these flavors come in either a cup or a Cohen _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:22:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:22:26 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: ? ? ? Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. ? He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. ? Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >> ? ? pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him >> ? ? for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >> ? ? says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off >> ? ? the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. >> > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> well, you're in Barney. >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:48:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:48:35 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the finer points. VS-) On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 02:59:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:59:23 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060046.q05G55hn016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". And, in addition, being amazingly pretentious in the attempt. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:18:43 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:18:43 -0500 Subject: resurface Message-ID: Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": http://goo.gl/3yKYL Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the surface (again). There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but transitive (making something appear after an absence). Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it cleaner? Of the OneLook dictionaries, only Collins goes there: > 1. (intr) to arise or occur again --> "the problem resurfaced" > 2. (intr) to rise or cause to rise again to the surface > 3. (tr) to supply (something) with a new surface Not sure why 2. is "intr" if it covers both "to rise" and "to cause to rise". A few others mention "re-emerge", "reappear" or "re-occur" meaning, but not "make reappear". AHD and MW match the OED. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 03:25:14 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:25:14 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime Message-ID: But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. Very much so. There's the rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher's" from "butcher's hook" = a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a graded fashion, like stairs. Gerald Cohen Message from Wilson Gray, Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: ? ? ? Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. ? He's the character in the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was always getting into trouble. ? Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >> ? ? pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him >> ? ? for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >> ? ? says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off >> ? ? the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. >> > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> well, you're in Barney. >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 03:30:15 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 19:30:15 -0800 Subject: Sleep-text, texter Message-ID: Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long it will be before a politician claims that their "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I find on Google, searching back to 2000. "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) ----- It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. ----- Comment on that page: March 17, 2006 by Stuart ----- its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. ----- 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) This article has a cornucopia of forms. ----- Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden Valley and one of a small but growing number of cellphone users who say they sometimes sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or professional damage, said Kramer, who has about a dozen patients who have become concerned about sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:37:38 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060325.q05KH15N008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Is it still Cockney rhyming slang if proper cockneys never said it? DanG On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. Very much so. There's the > rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher's" > from "butcher's hook" = a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." > And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, > e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), > with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a > graded fashion, like stairs. > > Gerald Cohen > > Message from Wilson Gray, Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: > > This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > > Poster: ? ? ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > > Subject: ? ? ? Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. ? He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble. ? Or do I remember it wrong? > > Gerald Cohen > > > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > > believe, Oceans Eleven: > > "You're in Barney." > > "Say what?" > > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > > "No." > > > > Or something like that... > > > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > >> > >> ? ? pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > >> ? ? for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > >> ? ? says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > >> ? ? the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > >> > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > >> well, you're in Barney. > >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > > > VS-) > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 03:59:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 22:59:07 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060046.q05G55hn016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one > trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on January 5, 2012). This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey K. Pullum about this question. This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this topic I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow [Begin excerpt] The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for snow. In fact, the Eskimo?Aleut languages have about the same number of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] [End excerpt] [Continuation of Victor's post] > http://goo.gl/rdp6u >> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >> management'. >> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >> application layers. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 05:17:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:17:05 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060359.q062OxQd024145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000405.html On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Garson O'Toole > Subject: ? ? ? Re: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >> Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one >> trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". > > The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is > contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on > January 5, 2012). > > This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in > languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a > distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey > K. Pullum about this question. > > This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. > It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this > topic I think. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow > > [Begin excerpt] > The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception > alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for > snow. In fact, the Eskimo???leut languages have about the same number > of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In > contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, > do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] > [End excerpt] > > [Continuation of Victor's post] >> http://goo.gl/rdp6u >>> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >>> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >>> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >>> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >>> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >>> management'. >>> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >>> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >>> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >>> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >>> application layers. >> >> ? ? VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 05:07:59 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:07:59 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060338.q05KH15l008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As Smart might have asked, "Well, would you accept Cockney-_style_ rhyming slang?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Dan Goncharoff > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is it still Cockney rhyming slang if proper cockneys never said it? > > > DanG > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrot= > e: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: ? ? ? Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> >> But this *is* Cockney(-style) rhyming slang. ? Very much so. ? There's the >> rhyme, the shortening ("Barney" from "Barney Rubble," just like "butcher'= > s" >> from "butcher's hook" =3D a look, e.g. "Take a butcher's at this." >> And occasionally Cockney rhyming slang has a semantic justification too, >> e.g. "apples and pears" (stairs), >> with the imagery of a fruit stand in which the fruit is arranged in a >> graded fashion, like stairs. >> >> Gerald Cohen >> >> Message from Wilson Gray, ? Thu 1/5/2012 8:22 PM: >> >> This isn't Cockney(-style?) rhyming slang, then? >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: =C2 ? =C2 ? =C2 ? American Dialect Society > >> > Poster: =C2 ? =C2 ? =C2 ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> > Subject: =C2 ? =C2 ? =C2 Barney Rubble. ---was: dime >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> > >> > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. =C2 He's the character in = > the >> Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was >> always getting into trouble. =C2 Or do I remember it wrong? >> > Gerald Cohen >> > >> > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> > >> > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >> > believe, Oceans Eleven: >> > "You're in Barney." >> > "Say what?" >> > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >> > "No." >> > >> > Or something like that... >> > >> > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" >> > >> > http://goo.gl/F8rWg >> >> >> >> =C2 ? =C2 ? pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs= > ? him >> >> =C2 ? =C2 ? for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". >> >> =C2 ? =C2 ? says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grea= > se off >> >> =C2 ? =C2 ? the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X dama= > ge. >> >> >> > >> > http://goo.gl/wMtaq >> >> Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!= > ) >> > >> > http://goo.gl/YFOVy >> >> All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more >> >> impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, >> >> well, you're in Barney. >> >> ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. >> > >> > http://goo.gl/vslbu >> >> Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. >> > >> > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear >> > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). >> > >> > VS-) >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 6 05:41:24 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 21:41:24 -0800 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year Message-ID: We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, and the nominees have now been posted: http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 06:48:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:48:36 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201060551.q05G55rN016104@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Since Arab Spring has been nominated among those Most Likely to Succeed, I thought I'd ask--has anyone else noticed the creep of terms that riff on the "spring" theme but substitute something else for "Arab"? Obviously, searching for such things would be counterproductive, but if you're aware of their existence, perhaps you're more likely to notice them. VS-) On 1/6/2012 12:41 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, > and the nominees have now been posted: > > http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted > > Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 06:50:22 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 01:50:22 -0500 Subject: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches In-Reply-To: <201201060529.q05KH1D3008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000405.html Thanks for your response Wilson. When I wrote that the Wikipedia article "cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey K. Pullum" I was referring to reference number 1 in the Wikipedia article. Reference number 1 contains precisely the useful link that you have given above. I read this Language Log post a few years ago, and again before I posted. > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? Garson O'Toole >> Subject: ? ? ? Re: User Virtualization Emerges As Tonic For Nagging IT Headaches >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Victor Steinbok wrote: >>> >>> Here's a particularly egregious instance of "words for snow"--and one >>> trying to escape attention by using "the Sami people of Scandinavia". >> >> The claim that the Sami people "do have hundreds of words for snow" is >> contained in a Wikipedia article about "Eskimo words for snow" (on >> January 5, 2012). >> >> This Wikipedia article discusses the number of words for snow in >> languages in the Inuit language group. However, it treats this as a >> distinct question. The article cites a Language Log post by Geoffrey >> K. Pullum about this question. >> >> This post is not a claim about the accuracy of the Wikipedia article. >> It is useful to know what the "hive-mind" is synthesizing on this >> topic I think. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> The "Eskimo words for snow" claim is a widespread misconception >> alleging that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words for >> snow. In fact, the Eskimo???leut languages have about the same number >> of distinct word roots referring to snow as English does.[1][2] In >> contrast, the European Sami People, an indigenous circumpolar group, >> do have hundreds of words for snow.[3][4][5] >> [End excerpt] >> >> [Continuation of Victor's post] >>> http://goo.gl/rdp6u >>>> The Sami people of Scandinavia are said to have hundreds of different >>>> words for snow. The technology known broadly as user virtualization >>>> doesn't have nearly this many, but its growing importance in IT >>>> industry circles has spawned a number of alternate descriptions, such >>>> as 'workspace management', 'persistent personalization' and 'profile >>>> management'. >>>> However it's defined, there's no question that user virtualization >>>> solves difficult problems for IT departments. Its central purpose is >>>> managing an individual's data, personal files and applications as a >>>> distinct layer that's separate from the hardware, operating system and >>>> application layers. >>> >>> ? ? VS-) >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 6 08:29:06 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:29:06 -0800 Subject: resurface In-Reply-To: <201201060318.q062OxQ3024145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED2 does have the relevant transitive sense for "surface", defined as "to bring to public notice" (originally in the sense "to produce or expose (a defector, spy, etc.).", from 1955 in American usage). Perhaps the editors didn't find enough evidence to warrant drafting a corresponding "re-" form in the OED3 entry for "resurface". --bgz On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": > > http://goo.gl/3yKYL > Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney > > This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for > re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the > surface (again). > > There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, > arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from > the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but > transitive (making something appear after an absence). > > Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it > cleaner? > > Of the OneLook dictionaries, only Collins goes there: > > > 1. (intr) to arise or occur again --> "the problem resurfaced" > > 2. (intr) to rise or cause to rise again to the surface > > 3. (tr) to supply (something) with a new surface > > Not sure why 2. is "intr" if it covers both "to rise" and "to cause to > rise". A few others mention "re-emerge", "reappear" or "re-occur" > meaning, but not "make reappear". AHD and MW match the OED. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 6 15:03:29 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:03:29 -0600 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10p008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Fred Flintstone = Ralph Kramden (Jackie Gleason) Barney Rubble = Ed Norton (Art Carney) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:06 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > > well, you're in Barney. > > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 15:14:43 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:14:43 +0800 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201060205.q05KH10r008294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't recall Barney Rubble being particularly bellicose. (Mel Blanc's guttural guffaw is what I mostly remember, plus the Ed Norton hommage.) Anyway, in Cockney rhymes, there must be no relationship between the meanings of the plain-form and its encryption, otherwise the cat would be out of the bag. Probably, therefore: (1) there must have been an older, late 19th century Cockney rhyming formula (sort of like a defective fanqie): x(barney) + y(?) < z(?), where the long-lost y and z had to have rhymed. I take the liberty of proffering a possible reconstruction: *{a barny wife, strife} (cf. barney 1865 ?cheating? slang OED). (Barny sounds like bonnie in 19th c. E Londonese?) (2) Through hemiteleia, a further encryption took place, effacing the rhyme word (y), resulting in a naked barney. With the loss of both source and rhyme, the isolated barney eventually became etymologically opaque; o.o.o. in Partridgese. (3) Because of the etymological opacity of barney, its form became folk-etymologically associated with a modern, familiar Barney: {Barney Rubble, trouble}. It could just as well be updated to *{Barney Gumble, a rumble}. QED, QEF, and QE2. The multitudinous possibilities for offending every Barney in the world should include: *{Barney Fife, a knife}; *{Barney Frank, a tank}; *{Barney Miller, Godziller}; {Barney Google, a padoogle}; *{Bjarni Jonnson, Wisconsin}; ect., &c, and excetra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming_slang: <> Add Michael Caine as a rhyme slanger. The Flintstones tv show 1960-66: "...When you're with the Flintstones, have a yabbadabbadoo time, a dabbadoo time, you'll have a gay old time!" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flintstones#Music: << ...melody is derived from part of the 'B' section of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 17 Movement 2, composed in 1801/02)>>. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 15:27:50 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:27:50 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <4F066103.4090502@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/5/2012 09:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a >simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got >in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the >finer points. If there were any finer points to miss, I missed them. (The only one may be the takeoff on Kramden and Norton.) But Victor has the characterizations right, I think. While Fred initiated the trouble, Barney generally was sucked in. So "you're in Rubble trouble" may mean "you're in a mess that your witlessness and gullibility got you into." Joel > VS-) > >On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in >>the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, >>Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? >>Gerald Cohen >> >>Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> >>To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >>believe, Oceans Eleven: >>"You're in Barney." >>"Say what?" >>"Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >>"No." >> >>Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Jan 6 15:57:13 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:57:13 +0000 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime In-Reply-To: <201201061527.q0667q5Z027562@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not necessarily related, but I recall (perhaps inaccurately) the the Valley-talking girls in the motion picture _Clueless_ (1995) referred to unattractive males generically as Barneys. Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 1/5/2012 09:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >You might remember it better than I do, but I thought of Barney as a >simpleton, unaware of his surroundings, but it was always Fred who got >in trouble. It was never high on my watch-list, so I may be missing the >finer points. If there were any finer points to miss, I missed them. (The only one may be the takeoff on Kramden and Norton.) But Victor has the characterizations right, I think. While Fred initiated the trouble, Barney generally was sucked in. So "you're in Rubble trouble" may mean "you're in a mess that your witlessness and gullibility got you into." Joel > VS-) > >On 1/5/2012 9:05 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >>But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in >>the Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, >>Barney was always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? >>Gerald Cohen >> >>Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: >> >>To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I >>believe, Oceans Eleven: >>"You're in Barney." >>"Say what?" >>"Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" >>"No." >> >>Or something like that... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 6 16:16:26 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:16:26 -0500 Subject: Sleep-text, texter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. Joel At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > >I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long >it will be before a politician claims that their >"sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > >1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I >find on Google, searching back to 2000. > >"Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > >----- >It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. >----- > >Comment on that page: > >March 17, 2006 by Stuart >----- >its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me >right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she >woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. >----- > >2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's >zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson >(http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > >This article has a cornucopia of forms. > >----- >Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. > >"Sometimes the texts make sense, other times >it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior >at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden >Valley and one of a small but growing number of >cellphone users who say they sometimes >sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. > >"You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > >But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > >Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or >professional damage, said Kramer, who has about >a dozen patients who have become concerned about >sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > >Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she >hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." > >Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people >are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. >----- > >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 18:03:31 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:03:31 -0800 Subject: Sleep-text, texter In-Reply-To: <201201061616.q0667qBs011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but never the verb phone. But, like everything else in the universe, it's on Google. BB On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > Joel > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). >> >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long >> it will be before a politician claims that their >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." >> >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. >> >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) >> >> ----- >> It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. >> ----- >> >> Comment on that page: >> >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart >> ----- >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me >> right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. >> ----- >> >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) >> >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. >> >> ----- >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. >> >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of >> cellphone users who say they sometimes >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. >> >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. >> >> But doctors are also starting to see sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. >> >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. >> >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." >> >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 6 18:14:18 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:14:18 -0800 Subject: Continents in the OED Message-ID: There is a good video on YouTube pointing out that the way the continents is defined is arbitrary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34&feature=player_embedded), essentially a matter of convenience. The OED does an elegant job of avoiding the traps that the video talks about, but the explanatory text (the part after the first sentence) is now out of date: ----- One of the main continuous bodies of land on the earth's surface. Formerly two continents were reckoned, the Old and the New; the former comprising Europe, Asia, and Africa, which form one continuous mass of land; the latter, North and South America, forming another. (These two continents are strictly islands, distinguished only by their extent.) Now it is usual to reckon four or five continents, Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, North and South; the great island of Australia is sometimes reckoned as another, and geographers have speculated on the existence of an Antarctic Continent. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Jan 6 18:48:49 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:48:49 -0600 Subject: FW: Texas demonym series continues, makes D magazine ("What do you call a person in Texas from...?") Message-ID: Dear members of ans-l and ads-l, Barry Popik sent the message below to several people, and with his permission I now share it with our two listservs. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: Barry Popik [mailto:bapopik at aol.com] Sent: Fri 1/6/2012 1:42 AM There are now about a hundred Texas demonyms, all researched with historical citations. I'll be ending this thing in a few days, unless it makes news and I get further research suggestions from fellow Texans. There are lots and lots of small towns with fewer than 1,000 residents, and I can't do all of 'em. ... It helps to have a good-sized city with a good online newspaper to do this. ... Merriam-Webster online had about ten of these, mostly for major cities (Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, Amarillo, Pasadena, Wichita Falls, plus Athens, Carthage, Palestine, Paris), not with dated citations, of course...M-W has nothing for Palm Springs (CA) and Colorado Springs (CO), so, of course, Big Spring (TX) and Dripping Springs (TX) are difficult...Temple has me stumped, as does Commerce and Pharr...Alpine seems to have Alpiner and Alpinite, but there's just a handful of cites...I'm not sure if people from Mesquite are Mesquiters...Maybe I'll do Flower Mound today. ... Anyway, I was suprised to see a mention in D Magazine today. See below. ... As some of you know, I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease in 2011 and I'm on a Remicade treatment. I'm not getting any worse ... Barry Popik Austin, TX www.barrypopik.com ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entries/ Katyite (inhabitant of Katy) Lake Jacksonite (inhabitant of Lake Jackson) Weslacoan (inhabitant of Weslaco) Wichitan (inhabitant of Wichita Falls) Victorian (inhabitant of Victoria, Texas) Pasadenan (inhabitant of Pasadena) Port Arthuran or Port Arthurian (inhabitant of Port Arthur) Grapeviner (inhabitant of Grapevine) Harlingenite (inhabitant of Harlingen) Gilmerite (inhabitant of Gilmer) Denisonian (inhabitant of Denison) Shermanite (inhabitant of Sherman) Baytownian (inhabitant of Baytown) Baytowner (inhabitant of Baytown) Kerrvillian (inhabitant of Kerrville) Kerrvillite (inhabitant of Kerrville) Corsicanan (inhabitant of Corsicana) Lulingite (inhabitant of Luling) Ciscoan (inhabitant of Cisco) Missionite (inhabitant of Mission) Sugar Lander (inhabitant of Sugar Land) Mexiaite (inhabitant of Mexia) Shinerite (inhabitant of Shiner) Dentonite (inhabitant of Denton) Waxahachian (inhabitant of Waxahachie) Texarkanian (inhabitant of Texarkana) Pflugervillian (inhabitant of Pflugerville) Round Rocker (inhabitant of Round Rock) Uvaldean (inhabitant of Uvalde) Wimberleyite (inhabitant of Wimberley) Pecosite (inhabitant of Pecos) Carthaginian (inhabitant of Carthage, Texas) Athenian (inhabitant of Athens, Texas) Parisian (inhabitant of Paris, Texas) Cedar Hillbillies (inhabitants of Cedar Hill) Arlingtonite (inhabitant of Arlington) Arlingtonian (inhabitant of Arlington) Bryanite (inhabitant of Bryan) Longviewite (inhabitant of Longview) Tylerite (inhabitant of Tyler) Killeenite (inhabitant of Killeen) Cedar Parker (inhabitant of Cedar Park) Leanderite (inhabitant of Leander) Leander (summary) Leanderthal (inhabitant of Leander) Nacogdochean or Nacogdochian (inhabitant of Nacogdoches) Grand Prairian (inhabitant of Grand Prairie) Planoite (inhabitant of Plano) Beaumonter (inhabitant of Beaumont) Fredericksburger (inhabitant of Fredericksburg) Del Rioan (inhabitant of Del Rio) Eagle Passan (inhabitant of Eagle Pass) Bee Caver (inhabitant of Bee Cave) Nederlander (inhabitant of Nederland) Seguinite (inhabitant of Seguin) New Braunfelser (inhabitant of New Braunfels) Crockettite (inhabitant of Crockett) Llanoite (inhabitant of Llano) Llanoan (inhabitant of Llano) Taylorite (inhabitant of Taylor) Huttoan (inhabitant of Hutto) Georgetowner (inhabitant of Georgetown) Marfan (inhabitant of Marfa) Marfaite (inhabitant of Marfa) San Marcan (inhabitant of San Marcos) Palestinian (inhabitant of Palestine, Texas) Lufkinite (inhabitant of Lufkin) Bastropian (inhabitant of Bastrop) San Angeloan (inhabitant of San Angelo) Brownsvillian (inhabitant of Brownsville) McAllenite (inhabitant of McAllen) Lubbockite (inhabitant of Lubbock) Laredoan (inhabitant of Laredo) Abilenian (inhabitant of Abilene) Odessan (inhabitant of Odessa) Midlander (inhabitant of Midland) Fort Worthian (inhabitant of Fort Worth) Fort Worther (inhabitant of Fort Worth) Amarilloan (inhabitant of Amarillo) Corpus Christian (inhabitant of Corpus Christi) Galvestonian (inhabitant of Galveston) Wacoite (inhabitant of Waco) Wacoan (inhabitant of Waco) El Pasoan (inhabitant of El Paso) Houstonian (inhabitant of Houston) Dallasite (inhabitant of Dallas) San Antonian (inhabitant of San Antonio) Austinite (inhabitant of Austin) ... http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2012/01/05/are-we-dallasites-or-dallasonians-fort-worthers-or-fort-worthians-etymology-tells-us-who-we-are/ Are We Dallasites or Dallasonians? Fort Worthers or Fort Worthians? Etymology Tells Us Who We Are Posted on January 5th, 2012 4:26pm by Jason Heid Filed under Awesome Things, Local News Barry Popik, a lawyer in Austin, likes words. He spends a lot of time researching the history of familiar phrases. He once went to great lengths to convince Nancy that hamburgers weren't invented in Texas. He has a website on which he discusses the etymology of a host of terms, posts photos of himself with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, and otherwise makes it clear that his intellect is superior to yours. Part of his site is devoted to assembling a "Lone Star Dictionary," and lately he's been adding to it with a series of posts about the history of terms for referring to the inhabitants of specific geographic locations. I'm sorry to say that "Dallasite" appears to be the only legitimate option for those of here in the region's biggest city. Residents of Fort Worth have two options: "Fort Worthian" or "Fort Worther." My favorite discovery on the site is that "Cedar Hillbillies" is apparently a real thing. But I was bowled over when I read the entry about my own hometown and its "Dentonites." While the citations on most of his posts are fairly dull and taken from Wikipedia and its sources, the entry for Denton sees fit to cite the Urban Dictionary: Dentonite n. One who exhibits all or many signs of Dentonitis, a common condition mainly affecting born citizens of Denton, Texas and a high number of move-in residents. Major symptoms include poor hygiene, low neural activity, strong aversion toward conversation of any kind, and/or total absence of emotion, as well as a very exclusive interest in five or more of the following things: Indoors, video games, fast food, cigarettes, concrete, indoors, television, facebook, indoors, beer, pot, youtube, indoors. I have seen the affliction too many times myself merely to laugh this off. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jan 6 19:43:19 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:43:19 -0500 Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E07391E@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Several Hanna-Barbera cartoons were modeled after successful live-action TV shows. "Top Cat," for instance, is an animated version of the "The Phil Silvers Show" (Sgt. Bilko). -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:03 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Fred Flintstone = Ralph Kramden (Jackie Gleason) Barney Rubble = Ed Norton (Art Carney) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 8:06 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Barney Rubble. ---was: dime > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > But "Barney Rubble" does seem to make sense. He's the character in the > Flinststones cartoons, and from the little I remember of them, Barney was > always getting into trouble. Or do I remember it wrong? > Gerald Cohen > > Original message from Victor Steinbok, Thu 1/5/2012 12:47 AM: > > To me, this makes about as much sense as the following exchange in, I > believe, Oceans Eleven: > "You're in Barney." > "Say what?" > "Barney--Barney Rubble... You're in trouble. Get it?" > "No." > > Or something like that... > > This is no longer a singular case of "in Barney" > > http://goo.gl/F8rWg > > > > pulls a bone shard out of the organ grinder and stabs him > > for X damage, shouting "Stick that up yer Khyber, ya chav!". > > says "You're in Barney now!" and scrapes all the grease off > > the bottom of his pie oven, then smears it on her for X damage. > > > > http://goo.gl/wMtaq > > Jabba you're in Barney! Rubble! Trouble!!! (different movie reference!) > > http://goo.gl/YFOVy > > All of you familiar with the original Getaway will be even more > > impressed with the sequel. All of you who did not enjoy the original, > > well, you're in Barney. > > ...Barney Rubble. Trouble! Fuckit. > > http://goo.gl/vslbu > > Lesson Learned: If you're in "barney," you're in trouble. > > This hidden rhyming euphemism still makes no sense to me. But I hear > it's popular in London (at least two separate sources suggest this!). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 6 19:54:07 2012 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:54:07 -0500 Subject: resurface In-Reply-To: <201201060839.q0667qxY009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recall a comic strip from N years ago. Scene: a school. Announcement coming over the PA system. (My text here is no doubt much different from the original, but the structural point is retained.) (frame 1) With the recent spate of rainy weather, I know that many of you have been concerned about the resurfacing of the parking lot. (frame 2) But the forecast is clear and sunny for all of next week, and we are hopeful that the parking lot will eventually resurface. This works, of course, because the intransitive and subjectless transitive senses merge in the gerund construction "V-ing of NP". Mark Mandel On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > OED2 does have the relevant transitive sense for "surface", defined as > "to bring to public notice" (originally in the sense "to produce or > expose (a defector, spy, etc.).", from 1955 in American usage). > Perhaps the editors didn't find enough evidence to warrant drafting a > corresponding "re-" form in the OED3 entry for "resurface". > > --bgz > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > > > Transitive, but in the meaning "to make something come to the surface": > > > > http://goo.gl/3yKYL > > Daily Kos Resurfaces Bain Bailout Orchestrated By Romney > > > > This is a potent mix: OED has two entries--one transitive, for > > re-furnishing a surface, and one intransitive, for something come to the > > surface (again). > > > > There is /no/ entry for somewhat metaphorical resurfacing--reappearing, > > arising or occurring after an absence--which would be a derivative from > > the intransitive version 2. But here it's the same meaning, but > > transitive (making something appear after an absence). > > > > Is this convoluted enough? Or am I missing something that explains it > > cleaner? > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Jan 6 20:10:18 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape Message-ID: >From the e-OED: 2. Thesaurus > a. Originally and chiefly: the act or crime, committed by a man, of forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse with him against her will, esp. by means of threats or violence. In later use more generally: the act of forced, non-consenting, or illegal sexual intercourse with another person; sexual violation or assault. The precise legal definition of rape has varied over time and between legal systems. Historically, rape was considered to be the act of a man forcing a woman other than his wife to have intercourse against her will, but recently the definition has broadened. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, in the United Kingdom the crime of rape includes the penile penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person of either sex, where consent to the act has not been given. This includes marital rape: in 1992 the House of Lords, in its judicial capacity, decided that the previous understanding (i.e. that a wife had given an irrevocable consent to intercourse) was no longer part of the law. Sexual penetration of a child under the age of 13 also constitutes rape irrespective of whether consent is obtained. In the United States the precise criminal definition of rape varies from state to state. date, gay, male, statutory rape, etc.: see the first element. Looks to me like Britain got there way before us in the US. Maybe this will be the Legal WOTY for 2012. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Fri Jan 6 20:38:56 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: Butt-dialing (was Sleep-texting) In-Reply-To: <201201061616.q0667qL2009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My son talked about how he "accidentally butt-dialed" someone, which prompted me to speculate about the skills required for butt-dialing someone on purpose. Neal On Jan 6, 2012, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Sleep-text, texter > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Jan 7 00:16:28 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 18:16:28 -0600 Subject: Words for Wind-sounds Message-ID: On another list, the following question has been posed, and I was wondering if anyone on this list has any suggestions. ****** If wind is blowing gently through trees (up to, say, Force 4 on the Beaufort Scale) it is specifically said*to sough*. The noun has other meanings, but the verb is pretty much restricted to the gentle sound of air moving through leaves and branches (it can also refer to equally gentle movement of water in a streambed, but nothing else, and I don't think I've ever seen or heard it actually used in that sense). But there do*not* seem to be equally specific English verbs for the noise stronger wind makes blowing through trees, either in (say) Forces 5-8 or 9-12. (Or I'm blanking on them completely.) Instead we get metaphors, with strong winds howling, moaning, shrieking, or screaming. Writers of age-of-sail fiction are also fond of a musical metaphor, referring to the 'threnody' of stormwinds in rigging -- but I'm assured by one as knows that with the cat's-cradle of ropework on a square-rigged ship a storm can produce a strange atonal chorus of noise, and I take that phenomenon to be specifically marine. (The literal meaning of threnody, a lament, may also make the metaphor attractive to the age-of-sail writers, or they may just be following C. S. Forester and Patrick O'Brian.) What verb/s would you use to describe the sound of moderate and strong winds through trees, or, I suppose, cabling&c. in more urban environments? Pretty much everyone's heard those noises, but how best to write them down? The breeze soughed through the trees. The stiff wind ? through the trees. The storm/gale ? though the trees. The hurricane ? through the trees. ****** Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 00:52:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:52:29 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201062010.q0667qac011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is no unified definition of rape in the US so the statement suggesting that "Britain got there way before us" really lacks foundation. The states' definitions of rape that removed the actual force element range from the 1960s to the 1990s, but, at this point, most if not all states have a broad definition of rape where there is 1a) penetration of of the orifices with a penis or 1b) penetration of vagina or anus with a foreign object 2a) with a person who does not consent or 2b) with a person who is not capable to express consent (statutory rape). I really don't think it is it accurate to say that Britain got there first--if anything, they are late-comers. Recently, there has been a major legal flareup when a judge suggested that a rape case in his court lacked the element of force. The definition of rape has been evolving at least since the 1920s and the majority of rape cases tried in US courts today (or plea-bargained before trial) would have been laughed out of court in the 1890. Changing statutory definitions, however, has proved to be far easier than changing prevailing attitudes. At least three of the remaining six Republican candidates expressed their believe in the fictional status of date rape within the last 10 days. VS-) PS: Now, if you bring up the changes that involve "battered spouse" and the corresponding legal remedies, those changes are far more recent. On 1/6/2012 3:10 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > From the e-OED: > > 2. > a. Originally and chiefly: the act or crime, committed by a man, of > forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse with him against her will, esp. > by means of threats or violence. In later use more generally: the act of > forced, non-consenting, or illegal sexual intercourse with another person; > sexual violation or assault. > > The precise legal definition of rape has varied over time and between legal > systems. Historically, rape was considered to be the act of a man forcing a > woman other than his wife to have intercourse against her will, but recently > the definition has broadened. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, in the > United Kingdom the crime of rape includes the penile penetration of the > vagina, anus, or mouth of another person of either sex, where consent to the > act has not been given. This includes marital rape: in 1992 the House of > Lords, in its judicial capacity, decided that the previous understanding > (i.e. that a wife had given an irrevocable consent to intercourse) was no > longer part of the law. Sexual penetration of a child under the age of 13 > also constitutes rape irrespective of whether consent is obtained. In the > United States the precise criminal definition of rape varies from state to > state. > > date, gay, male, statutory rape, etc.: see the first element. > > Looks to me like Britain got there way before us in the US. > > Maybe this will be the Legal WOTY for 2012. > > Regards, > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 01:39:42 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:39:42 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201070052.q06Mkuoq011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > under the age of 13 Is there a "United" state in which the age of consent is lower than fourteen? FWIW, there was a case on the Maury Show in which DNA-testing showed that a ten-year-old boy was indeed the father of the child born to a twelve-year-old girl. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 7 02:35:51 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: Butt-dialing (was Sleep-texting) In-Reply-To: <069233D5-0B35-40E9-A2F3-BF562FA6AF77@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Ah, well, redundancy abounds in human language, and in this case it seems clear enough that the speaker wanted to stress that his calling had not been intentional. On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > My son talked about how he "accidentally butt-dialed" someone, which prompted me to speculate about the skills required for butt-dialing someone on purpose. > > Neal > > On Jan 6, 2012, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Sleep-text, texter >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than >> butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. >> >> Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 04:21:31 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:21:31 -0500 Subject: new (?) definition of rape In-Reply-To: <201201070140.q06JwfIm009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's not a trivial question. But the interesting part is that some states have lower age for legal marriage than the age of consent. BTW, I was not responsible for that line--it came from an earlier post. One more thing--David's initial post was undoubtedly in response to the change in /Federal/ definition of rape, which has a fairly limited application. One version of the story is here http://goo.gl/61V5a > On Friday, the Justice Department did something it hasn?t done since > 1929: it changed the definition of rape. > For over 80 years, for the purposes of crime collection data, rape was > defined as forcible male penile penetration of a female. This excluded > a vast number of sexual crimes including oral and anal penetration, or > instances when a victim was unable to give consent. The new definition > makes up for these oversights. It also expands the definition to > reflect that anyone -- male, female, or transgender -- can be a victim > of rape. The change has long been made at state level, but not in federal reporting data. I am not even sure any laws had been changed. From the story it seems more like they changed the statistical category definition to match the predominant statutory definitions. So, likely, there is a bit less here than meets the eye. Because the statistics are collected by the DOJ, it makes it sound as if this is a law change, which I don't think it is. VS-) On 1/6/2012 8:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> under the age of 13 > Is there a "United" state in which the age of consent is lower than fourteen? > > FWIW, there was a case on the Maury Show in which DNA-testing showed > that a ten-year-old boy was indeed the father of the child born to a > twelve-year-old girl. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 7 04:13:41 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 20:13:41 -0800 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, > and the nominees have now been posted: > > http://www.americandialect.org/nominations-for-2011-word-of-the-year-posted > > Direct link to the PDF file: http://bit.ly/woty11noms And the winner is... "occupy". http://www.americandialect.org/occupy-is-the-2011-word-of-the-year Full press release, with winners in the various categories, is here: http://www.americandialect.org/2011-Word-of-the-Year-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 05:22:09 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 00:22:09 -0500 Subject: Continents in the OED In-Reply-To: <201201061814.q0667qQO011436@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the way the continents is defined is arbitrary "? the continents ,,,"? The _races_, right? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 7 08:22:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 00:22:30 -0800 Subject: Continents in the OED In-Reply-To: <201201070543.q075a3iv001349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> the way the continents is defined is arbitrary > > "? the continents ,,,"? > > The _races_, right? As far as continents go, the video makes it clear that the enumeration is arbitrary and no definition will satisfy common usage. Like race, the concept of continent seems to be based on historical geopolitical circumstance. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 09:11:47 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 04:11:47 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping Message-ID: Here's another word I've never heard--legal and helicopter-parenting jargon, I suppose. http://goo.gl/y4XV6 > The Utah Court of Appeals has refused to dismiss charges in the > controversial case of a South Jordan couple accused of killing their > baby by sleeping with him -- their second child to die in their bed. > The appeals judges sided with a lower court in a pair of opinions > released Friday, saying that even though a state medical examiner > listed the official cause of death as "undetermined," there was enough > evidence that "co-sleeping" caused the baby to suffocate to put the > parents on trial for child abuse homicide and reckless endangerment. > ... > At 3? months, he was too young to roll over on his own, evidence that > "supports a reasonable inference that Merrill actually caused the > infant to stop breathing by co-sleeping," according to Friday?s opinion. > The parents were said to be heavy sleepers, and a pediatrician warned > them against co-sleeping a day before the child?s death. This is not without precedent. The OED has both co-sleeping n. and co-sleep v. from 1966. Wordnik has several citations, including some with co-sleep and some with co-sleeper. OED does not have co-sleeper either in the sense of a special co-sleeping crib or in the sense of parent and child who are co-sleeping. http://goo.gl/4UqvJ Co-sleeping's deadly risk > Last year will be remembered for a number of things, but what should > stick in people's minds is the number of deaths resulting from > co-sleeping. The very mention of the word causes people to take sides > and offer opinions. > There are those who believe that co-sleeping is a wonderful experience > between mother and child, allowing for bonding. By definition, > co-sleeping involves the child sharing a sleep surface with the parent > or parents, instead of being placed in his or her own bed. There are a > number of reasons for this, from convenience to a desire to form that > special bond to necessity to even laziness. > There are those who say that there is nothing wrong with co-sleeping > and that it's an old practice. Co-sleeping, they say, has been > practiced by many mothers over the years with no ill effects, and, > therefore, there is not a problem with it. http://goo.gl/vndDT > Co-sleeping can be really really great for helping a tired mom get > some extra hours of sleep and for helping a young baby sleep longer > stretches as he feels his mother right there next to him. > ... > Yes, there are several rules you MUST follow to co-sleep safely (look > here for details) but if you follow them this can be the answer you > sound like you desperately need. > ... > Robin - we do co-sleep (following all the guidelines, etc, etc ... > ... > I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. > ... > I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. > ... > Co-sleeping didn't help, because she didn't sleep for more than an 45 > minutes to an hour no matter where we were. > ... > I was co-sleeping with my daughter (she was born in Jan) for about six > weeks and was totally exhausted. > ... > Everything woke him up, and (to my utter dismay) we couldn't co-sleep > because I woke up every time HE woke up ... > ... > I tried him in co-sleeper, bassinet, whatever, in our room and T would > have none of it. > ... > You sound too sensitive (I was) to co-sleep. Put him in his own room. http://goo.gl/tcEVg > (When your child can out-cry-you-out, and the co-sleeping is one long > dance of head-kicking, hair-yanking pain, what do you do? Seriously. > WHAT DO YOU DO?)/ > / http://goo.gl/meiYJ > The Consumer Product Safety Commission warned last week against > co-sleeping--infants sleeping next to parent. Its study found parents > can roll over and suffocate babies. Critics call the data misleading. > It's all part of the war over for what's best for Baby. > Sleep Easy: Co-sleeping means more rest, less crying for the baby (and > the parents). It also aids breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. > Baby on Board: The CPSC says Baby's safest on her back, in a crib, on > a hard mattress, with no blankets, pillows or stuffed toys > Different Strokes: Ethnic cultures where co-sleeping has always been > the norm resent CPSC's proclamation > Real Risks: Co-sleeping deaths do happen (especially when parents are > overweight or go to bed drunk). Is it better to be safe than cozy? > Mother, Nature: We're biologically wired to co-sleep. Baby cries when > alone because he's supposed to be with Mom. Wiki, UD, WordSpy and some parenting glossaries also have entries. But not mainline dictionaries (other than the OED). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Jan 7 14:12:43 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 06:12:43 -0800 Subject: "Occupy" is American Dialect Society 2011 Word of the Year Message-ID: The vote is in! In its 22nd annual word-of-the-year vote last night in Portland, Ore., the American Dialect Society voted "occupy" as its 2011 Word of the Year. See the full tallies and nominations: http://amdlx.com/occupy Grant Barrett American Dialect Society Vice President of Communications and Technology http://www.americandialect.org grantbarrett at gmail.com 646 286 2260 mobile/cell ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 7 14:18:54 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:18:54 -0500 Subject: Intarnaional Journals of Research Message-ID: Judging at least by the signature line, one does not have great confidence in the success of this editorial enterprise: International Journals of Research in Linguistics & Lexicography, Education, Business, Economics, Commerce, Medicine, Surgery and Literature Dear Friend, International Journals of Research (INTJR) invite manuscripts in Linguistics, Lexicography, Education, Business, Economics, Commerce, Medicine, Surgery and Literature. INTJR is international, peer-reviewed, professional scientific journals published under the supervision of seasoned and expert researchers in the field. INTJR welcomes articles from different institutions and countries in the above mentioned and related fields. Send your manuscripts for publication: editor at intjr.com, editor.intjr at gmail.com Visit www.intjr.com for further information. For Detailed Call for Papers: http://www.intjr.com/call4papers.php Last Date for sending Manuscripts extended up to January 31, 2012. -- With Profound Regards Executive Editor, Intarnaional Journals of Research www.intjr.com Emails: editor at intjr.com, editor.intjr at gmail.com Cell 0092 345 744 54 54 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 14:16:29 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:16:29 -0500 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but >never the verb phone. But, like everything else >in the universe, it's on Google. >BB Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I see. (Very many, considering the false positives such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". Joel >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > Joel > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > >> > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > >> > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > >> > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > >> > >> ----- > >> It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. > >> ----- > >> > >> Comment on that page: > >> > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > >> ----- > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > >> right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about heh. > >> ----- > >> > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > >> > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > >> > >> ----- > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her sleep. > >> > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's sleep. > >> > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > >> > >> But doctors are also starting to see > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > >> > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > >> > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I have." > >> > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > >> ----- > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Jan 7 15:04:31 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 09:04:31 -0600 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201071455.q076GGr9010568@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Isn't "butt-dial" more common that "butt-phone"? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:16 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but > >never the verb phone. But, like everything else > >in the universe, it's on Google. > >BB > > Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I > see. (Very many, considering the false positives > such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" > [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew > up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". > > Joel > > > >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > > >> > > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > > >> > > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > > >> > > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > > >> > > >> ----- > > >> It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> Comment on that page: > > >> > > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > > >> ----- > > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > > >> right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she > > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about > heh. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > > >> > > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > > >> > > >> ----- > > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her > sleep. > > >> > > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's > sleep. > > >> > > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > > >> > > >> But doctors are also starting to see > > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > > >> > > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > > >> > > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I > have." > > >> > > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > > >> ----- > > >> > > >> Benjamin Barrett > > >> Seattle, WA > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Jan 7 16:51:11 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 11:51:11 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <4F080C53.8000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: In olden times, before central heating, &c., sleeping with an infant was a common practice, and doubtless made sense. If the mother rolled over and suffocated the baby, the coroner's jury would bring the verdict of accidental death from being over-lain by the mother. overlie, verb, *Inflections:* Past tense *overlay*; past participle * overlain*. *2.* *trans.* Thesaurus ? Categories ? *a.* To lie over or on top of (a child, etc.) so as to cause suffocation; to smother by lying on. Cf. overlay v. 7a. Now *rare*. *a*1382 *Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) *(Bodl. 959) 3 Kings iii. 9 ?e sone of ?is womman ys dead to ny?t, for sleepynge sche ouerlay [*a*1425 *Corpus Oxf.* ouerlaye; *a*1425 *L.V.* oppresside; L. *oppressit*] hym. *c*1390 (1350) *Proprium Sanctorum* in *Archiv f. das Studium der Neueren Sprachen * (1888) *81* 301 ?is is a?eyn ?eos wymmen ?at ouerliggen heor children. *c*1400 (1280) *Old Test. Hist.* in F. J. Furnivall *Adam Davy's 5 Dreams * (1878) 97 In hire slep ?at o womman her owen childe ouerlay. *a*1450 (1425) J. Mirk *Instr. Parish Priests * (Claud.) (1974) 1657 Sende forth?to ?e byschop?th.e modur ?at ?e chylde ouer-lyth. *a*1500 (1415) J. Mirk *Festial * (Gough) 150 Fendys?make wymen to ouerlye hor children. 1530 J. Palsgrave *Lesclarcissement * 648/1, I overlye, as an oversene noryce dothe her chylde. 1803 R. Southey *Select. Lett. * (1856) I. 126 The mothers and the nurses who over-lie the children. 1856 E. B. Browning *Aurora Leigh * iv. 137 The old idiot wretch Screamed feebly, like a baby overlain. 1888 F. T. Elworthy *W. Somerset Word-bk. * 548 Th' old zow've a-bin and overlied one o' the little pigs. 1915 W. S. Maugham *Of Human Bondage * cxiii. 597 Accidents occurred often; mothers ?overlay? their babies, and perhaps errors of diet were not always the result of carelessness. I note the near 300 year gap (?) GAT On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 4:11 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Here's another word I've never heard--legal and helicopter-parenting > jargon, I suppose. > > http://goo.gl/y4XV6 > >> The Utah Court of Appeals has refused to dismiss charges in the >> controversial case of a South Jordan couple accused of killing their >> baby by sleeping with him -- their second child to die in their bed. >> The appeals judges sided with a lower court in a pair of opinions >> released Friday, saying that even though a state medical examiner >> listed the official cause of death as "undetermined," there was enough >> evidence that "co-sleeping" caused the baby to suffocate to put the >> parents on trial for child abuse homicide and reckless endangerment. >> ... >> At 3? months, he was too young to roll over on his own, evidence that >> "supports a reasonable inference that Merrill actually caused the >> infant to stop breathing by co-sleeping," according to Friday?s opinion. >> The parents were said to be heavy sleepers, and a pediatrician warned >> them against co-sleeping a day before the child?s death. >> > > This is not without precedent. The OED has both co-sleeping n. and > co-sleep v. from 1966. > > Wordnik has several citations, including some with co-sleep and some > with co-sleeper. OED does not have co-sleeper either in the sense of a > special co-sleeping crib or in the sense of parent and child who are > co-sleeping. > > http://goo.gl/4UqvJ > Co-sleeping's deadly risk > >> Last year will be remembered for a number of things, but what should >> stick in people's minds is the number of deaths resulting from >> co-sleeping. The very mention of the word causes people to take sides >> and offer opinions. >> There are those who believe that co-sleeping is a wonderful experience >> between mother and child, allowing for bonding. By definition, >> co-sleeping involves the child sharing a sleep surface with the parent >> or parents, instead of being placed in his or her own bed. There are a >> number of reasons for this, from convenience to a desire to form that >> special bond to necessity to even laziness. >> There are those who say that there is nothing wrong with co-sleeping >> and that it's an old practice. Co-sleeping, they say, has been >> practiced by many mothers over the years with no ill effects, and, >> therefore, there is not a problem with it. >> > > http://goo.gl/vndDT > >> Co-sleeping can be really really great for helping a tired mom get >> some extra hours of sleep and for helping a young baby sleep longer >> stretches as he feels his mother right there next to him. >> ... >> Yes, there are several rules you MUST follow to co-sleep safely (look >> here for details) but if you follow them this can be the answer you >> sound like you desperately need. >> ... >> Robin - we do co-sleep (following all the guidelines, etc, etc ... >> ... >> I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. >> ... >> I used an Arm's Reach co-sleeper ( side car) with my second baby. >> ... >> Co-sleeping didn't help, because she didn't sleep for more than an 45 >> minutes to an hour no matter where we were. >> ... >> I was co-sleeping with my daughter (she was born in Jan) for about six >> weeks and was totally exhausted. >> ... >> Everything woke him up, and (to my utter dismay) we couldn't co-sleep >> because I woke up every time HE woke up ... >> ... >> I tried him in co-sleeper, bassinet, whatever, in our room and T would >> have none of it. >> ... >> You sound too sensitive (I was) to co-sleep. Put him in his own room. >> > > http://goo.gl/tcEVg > >> (When your child can out-cry-you-out, and the co-sleeping is one long >> dance of head-kicking, hair-yanking pain, what do you do? Seriously. >> WHAT DO YOU DO?)/ >> / >> > > http://goo.gl/meiYJ > >> The Consumer Product Safety Commission warned last week against >> co-sleeping--infants sleeping next to parent. Its study found parents >> can roll over and suffocate babies. Critics call the data misleading. >> It's all part of the war over for what's best for Baby. >> Sleep Easy: Co-sleeping means more rest, less crying for the baby (and >> the parents). It also aids breast-feeding and mother-child bonding. >> Baby on Board: The CPSC says Baby's safest on her back, in a crib, on >> a hard mattress, with no blankets, pillows or stuffed toys >> Different Strokes: Ethnic cultures where co-sleeping has always been >> the norm resent CPSC's proclamation >> Real Risks: Co-sleeping deaths do happen (especially when parents are >> overweight or go to bed drunk). Is it better to be safe than cozy? >> Mother, Nature: We're biologically wired to co-sleep. Baby cries when >> alone because he's supposed to be with Mom. >> > > Wiki, UD, WordSpy and some parenting glossaries also have entries. But > not mainline dictionaries (other than the OED). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 7 16:58:00 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 16:58:00 +0000 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 Message-ID: One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge defeat, to cry for mercy") is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attested joke would be antedated: .... Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sweat." R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 17:18:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:18:40 -0500 Subject: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E8AE908@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec .army.mil> Message-ID: At 1/7/2012 10:04 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >Isn't "butt-dial" more common that "butt-phone"? Definitely -- and more common than "butt-call". But I had previously only tried "butt-call..." (it's hard to search for the infinitive so I used -ed and -ing), since "dial" is an anachronistic misnomer. :-) Joel > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 8:16 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: Butt-phonng [Was: Sleep-text, texter] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > At 1/6/2012 01:03 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > >Wahaha. I've seen "ass call" and "butt call" but > > >never the verb phone. But, like everything else > > >in the universe, it's on Google. > > >BB > > > > Many fewer times than "bull-calling", I > > see. (Very many, considering the false positives > > such as "it's a pain in the butt phoning" > > [presumably for Customer Service].) But I grew > > up at a time when "calling" meant "leaving a card". > > > > Joel > > > > > > >On Jan 6, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > > > Apparently sometimes more thoughtful than > > > > butt-phoning, which (I assume) only dials random numbers. > > > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > At 1/5/2012 10:30 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >> Sleep texting is in the news right now (see #2 below). > > > >> > > > >> I wonder if bookies are taking odds on how long > > > >> it will be before a politician claims that their > > > >> "sexting" was a case of "sleep-sexting." > > > >> > > > >> 1. December 21, 2005 - This is the earliest I > > > >> find on Google, searching back to 2000. > > > >> > > > >> "Sleep-texting" by Gail Dela Cruz (http://kutitots.com/?p=14) > > > >> > > > >> ----- > > > >> It was the fact I was ?sleep-texting? that freaked me out. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> Comment on that page: > > > >> > > > >> March 17, 2006 by Stuart > > > >> ----- > > > >> its funny, my girlfriend just sleep-texted me > > > >> right now actually ? i found it hilarious, she > > > >> woke up when i replied and had no idea what i was talking about > > heh. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> 2. December 27, 2011: "Hey u wassup?? Let's > > > >> zzzzz ..." by Kristin Tillotson > > > >> (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/136212468.html) > > > >> > > > >> This article has a cornucopia of forms. > > > >> > > > >> ----- > > > >> Alice Hall is such a skillful texter that she can do it in her > > sleep. > > > >> > > > >> "Sometimes the texts make sense, other times > > > >> it's just random letters," said Hall, a senior > > > >> at the Perpich Center Arts High School in Golden > > > >> Valley and one of a small but growing number of > > > >> cellphone users who say they sometimes > > > >> sleep-text -- the latest twist on sleepwalking or talking in one's > > sleep. > > > >> > > > >> "You wouldn't want to sleep-text your boss," he said. > > > >> > > > >> But doctors are also starting to see > > > sleep-texting concerns in adult patients. > > > >> > > > >> Sleep-texters can do themselves real social or > > > >> professional damage, said Kramer, who has about > > > >> a dozen patients who have become concerned about > > > >> sleep-texting, most of them first mentioning it in the past year. > > > >> > > > >> Caitlin Connery, a junior at Perpich, said she > > > >> hasn't sleep-texted anything mortifying yet, but "it's a fear I > > have." > > > >> > > > >> Most sleep-texts are probably sent when people > > > >> are in a semi-alert but groggy state, both Iber and Kramer said. > > > >> ----- > > > >> > > > >> Benjamin Barrett > > > >> Seattle, WA > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 7 17:37:05 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 12:37:05 -0500 Subject: overlie [Was: co-sleeping] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/7/2012 11:51 AM, George Thompson wrote: >I note the near 300 year gap (?) [1530--1803] Perhaps because: "The Child is overlain, says one. The Nurse has overlain the Child. This is not good English : For Overlain belongs to the Verb Overlie, not to the Verb Overlay : And yet Overlay is the Verb used where Mention is made of a Nurse's pressing and smothering a Child. [Etc., etc.]" Robert Baker, Remarks on the English Language, 1770, p. 35. GBooks. :-) (Nevertheless, there are a few interdatings.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 7 18:35:21 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 13:35:21 -0500 Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" Message-ID: "_The U.S. government_ now expects to shutter at least 1,200 data centers?" Is "Feds" unconsciously being construed as singular because "The U.S. government" is singular? Or is this merely a typo? Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Sun Jan 8 01:25:34 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 20:25:34 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201070911.q076GGeV010568@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" and using that term for decades. Daniel Nussbaum II, MD, FAAP Retired Pediatrician ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Sun Jan 8 04:01:35 2012 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:01:35 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201080125.q0766V5Y020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Nussbaum > Subject: Re: co-sleeping > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" a= > nd using that term for decades. I'm pretty sure Dr. Sears' baby book uses the phrase. It's the one we use(d) about the son we co-slept with as a baby (and somehow managed not to kill). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 8 07:44:10 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 02:44:10 -0500 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 In-Reply-To: <201201071658.q0761V6H004014@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/7/2012 11:58 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge de= > feat, to cry for mercy") > is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. > > If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attes= > ted joke would be antedated: > .... > Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sw= > eat." > R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... > > The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. -- Interesting. I see that this passage is in a student periodical, in a section devoted to little items of current news among dental students. R. E. Drake was one of these students. I don't know who/what the "little fellow" was: probably this is some kind of inside joke. I don't think one can know the referent from this short item. I don't find clear mention of a child or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Apparently he belonged to a fraternity and played brass instruments. I suppose he was Rollin Edwards Drake (b. 1868). The preceding item with Dr. Martin appears presumably unrelated. I suppose this is just for humor: some senior student said "flabby" instead of "clammy", I suppose, ha ha. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 07:52:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 02:52:34 -0500 Subject: name change Message-ID: It's only the first week in January and we already have the name of the year: http://goo.gl/z2Dkv > Beezow Doo-Doo Zopittybop-Bop-Bop, 30, was arrested Thursday afternoon > on charges of carrying a concealed weapon, possession of drug > paraphernalia, possession of marijuana and a violation of probation in > Madison, Wisc. > Zopittybop-Bop-Bop was born Jeffrey Drew Wilschke, according to court > records unearthed by the Capital Times. He legally changed his name to > Beezow Doo-Doo Zoopittybop-Bop-Bop in October. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 08:13:38 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 03:13:38 -0500 Subject: co-sleeping In-Reply-To: <201201080401.q0766V7Q020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I am not disputing that the word has been in circulation--in fact, it seems to have been around for 50 years or so. But it is interesting that, aside from the OED, it's been ignored by the major dictionaries--interesting /precisely/ because it has been around for so long and has been a point of controversy for some time as well. VS-) On 1/7/2012 11:01 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> The American Academy of Pediatrics has been railing against "co-sleeping" and using that term for decades. > I'm pretty sure Dr. Sears' baby book uses the phrase. It's the one we > use(d) about the son we co-slept with as a baby (and somehow managed > not to kill). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 8 15:38:43 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:38:43 +0000 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 Message-ID: Previously we have seen various similar-sounding Irish words and names suggested for the origin of malarkey (nonsense etc.). It appears in baseball (? *) reporting in 1924: 1924 Indiana (Pa.) Evening Gaz. 12 Mar. 13/1 The rest of the chatter is so much malarkey, according to a tip so straight that it can be passed thru a peashooter without touching the sides. Here's the 1904 opening text of a baseball report by (Irish-sounding?) O'Laughlin: Too much Malarkey. That about summarizes the reasons for Minneapolis' defeat at the hands of Columbus yesterday afternoon. Old "King Mull" fried and frapped the air with shoots, drops and flips until the millers began to break ground every time they approached the plate. The Minneapolis journal., May 19, 1904, Image 15, p. 14(?), cpl. 3 http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045366/1904-05-19/ed-1/seq-15/;words=Malarkey+much?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=advanced&proxdistance=5&date2=1922&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=+much+malarkey&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson * http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1004B&L=ADS-L&P=R7384&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 8 15:47:07 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:47:07 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E87439502873C5A@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Does the following antedated use suggest clues to the etymology of "slang"? {No attempt to mark the three different typefaces:] "I don't know (says a Printer's Devil mingled with the Croud) you may talk of your Curls, and I know not who; but for vamping, patching, puffing, parading and scurrility, and Slang (a cant word among those Gentry) I think there's none comes up to the Carman before us." ________________________________ From: Stephen Goranson Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 8 16:47:01 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:47:01 +0000 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E8743950287C00A@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen's find is very interesting, but perhaps he is not looking at Green's Dictionary of Slang in assessing this citation. GDoS has citations for _slang_ 'line of work, occupation' back to 1741, and for _slang_ 'nonsense, rubbish' back to 1747. The 1753 discovery may be in the sense 'nonsense, rubbish.' Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 10:47 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Does the following antedated use suggest clues to the etymology of "slang"? {No attempt to mark the three different typefaces:] "I don't know (says a Printer's Devil mingled with the Croud) you may talk of your Curls, and I know not who; but for vamping, patching, puffing, parading and scurrility, and Slang (a cant word among those Gentry) I think there's none comes up to the Carman before us." ________________________________ From: Stephen Goranson Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 Google Books give erroneous bibliographic data for the following (page lxxxv): http://tinyurl.com/7ugpdm7 Here's a Worldcat listing: The lives and characters of the most eminent actors and actresses of Great Britain and Ireland, from Shakespear to the present time. Interspersed with a general history of the stage. By Mr. Theophilus Cibber. Part I. To which is prefixed, familiar epistle from Mr. Theophilus Cibber to Mr. William Warburton. Theophilus Cibber 1753 English (xcix, [1], xiv, 89, [1] p.) London : [P]rinted for R. Griffiths, in St. Paul's Church-yard, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sun Jan 8 17:11:50 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:11:50 -0800 Subject: 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't Message-ID: http://channels.isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/biblequotes/biblequotes&floc=wn-nx 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't Scripture says, "God helps those who help themselves." Or does it? Search all you want in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. You won't find it anywhere. Call it phantom scripture. It sounds like it should be in the Bible--and maybe someone you respect told you it was, but it's not. "The Bible may be the most revered book in America, but it's also one of the most misquoted," reports CNN correspondent John Blake, who assembled the most oft-quoted phantom Bible passages and their real source. The top five phantom Bible passages: 1. "God helps those who help themselves." Origin: Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Almanac" 2. "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Origin: It's almost in the Bible. This is similar to, but not the same as, Proverbs 13:24: "The one who withholds [or spares] the rod is one who hates his son." 3. "God works in mysterious ways." Origin: A paraphrase of a 19th century hymn by the English poet William Cowper. "God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform." 4. "Cleanliness is next to godliness." Origin: Coined by John Wesley, the 18th century evangelist who founded Methodism. 5. "Pride goes before a fall." Origin: It's close to Proverbs 16:18: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Why do we think these phantom passages are in the Bible? One Bible professor says it's because people like the idea that biblical passages reinforce their own pre-existing beliefs. "Most people who profess a deep love of the Bible have never actually read the book," Rabbi Rami Shapiro told CNN. "They have memorized parts of texts that they can string together to prove the biblical basis for whatever it is they believe in, but they ignore the vast majority of the text." Ignorance isn't the only reason we think phantom biblical passages are real. We're also just plain confused since many of these phantom verses do reflect actual biblical concepts, good common sense or folk wisdom. --From the Editors at Netscape _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 18:00:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:00:11 -0500 Subject: Proverb: When the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box (version in 1781) Message-ID: Nigel Rees of the BBC Radio Program "QUOTE ... UNQUOTE" has posted the following query on his website: http://www1c.btwebworld.com/quote-unquote/p0000112.htm [Begin query] Q4298 'When the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box' - is usually described as an Italian proverb. Is it? [End query dated July 27, 2011] While searching for information about this saying I found that it was labeled a Persian proverb, a Chinese proverb, an Irish saying, and an Italian proverb. The query does not indicate what is currently known, and does not provide any benchmark for improvement. I was unable to find the saying in the Yale Book of Quotations or in Oxford Reference Online (but the search function for Oxford Reference Online is confusing and difficult for me to use effectively. So it might be in that database somewhere). Here is a 1781 citation that contains the core idea of the saying but is somewhat wordy. Cite: 1781, "Chinese Tales or The Wonderful Adventures of the Mandarin Fum-Hoam, Related By Himself, To Divert The Sultana, Upon the Celebration of Her Nuptials", Written in French by M. Gueulette, Translated by The Rev. Mr. Stackhouse, Volume The Second, Chapter: Evening XL, Page 96-97, Printed for Harrison and Co., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=PawCAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+box%22#v=snippet& [Begin compressed excerpt] ... the kings, the queens, the knights, the fools, and simple pawns ... when once the game is over, and the chessboard shut, they are all thrown promiscuously together into the same box, ... [End compressed excerpt] [Begin extended excerpt] The king, with whom I had this discourse, was satisfied with the truth of it. 'You are in the right,' said he to me; 'and it is with very great justice that one of our poets has elegantly compared all kind of men to the pieces wherewith we play at chess: some act the kings, the queens, the knights, the fools, and simple pawns. There is a vast difference between them, while they are in motion; but when once the game is over, and the chessboard shut, they are all thrown promiscuously together into the same box, without any sort of distinction. Death does the very same thing: kings, emperors, merchants, slaves, warriors, men of the robe, and of the revenue all then become equal; and there is nothing but our good works, and charity towards our neighbours, that will give us the superiority. Let us therefore, always be doing commendable actions; for they bring with them an inward satisfaction, which the wicked never enjoy. [End extended excerpt] Please check for typos before using this information. Thanks. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 18:16:55 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:16:55 -0500 Subject: 5 Bible Quotes That Really Aren't In-Reply-To: <201201081711.q08Ajwvt006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: They forgot--or ignored--one more basic reason. People prefer short, catchy slogans to full verses that may be too subtle. And when added to the predisposition toward the substance of the expression, the combination is lethal. VS-) On 1/8/2012 12:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ... > Why do we think these phantom passages are in the Bible? One Bible professor says it's because people like the idea that biblical passages reinforce their own pre-existing beliefs. "Most people who profess a deep love of the Bible have never actually read the book," Rabbi Rami Shapiro told CNN. "They have memorized parts of texts that they can string together to prove the biblical basis for whatever it is they believe in, but they ignore the vast majority of the text." > > Ignorance isn't the only reason we think phantom biblical passages are real. We're also just plain confused since many of these phantom verses do reflect actual biblical concepts, good common sense or folk wisdom. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:30:38 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:30:38 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak Message-ID: Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough cockneys," if that's any help.) Also heard: "He's _chinky_(?)" in context, equivalent to. "He's _lively_" et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 8 21:40:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:40:57 -0800 Subject: More on soft opening; soft/hard left/right Message-ID: On February 14, 2005, John Baker discusses the term "soft opening," used by retailers to refer to opening for business before making a formal grand opening announcement (http://ow.ly/8m6Bu). In the Seattle Times today, that meaning is extended to a park. "Sammamish resident's park gift comes with extra: more land later," Keith Ervin (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017186232_parkgift08m.html) ----- Not many residents have discovered the park since its unheralded "soft opening" in October. ----- This meaning is not in the OED. Also, it appears that "hard" and "soft" are not defined in reference to turning. At an intersection where there is more than one left or right possible, the "hard" left/right is the one at the most acute angle, and the "soft" left/right is the one at the most obtuse angle. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:40:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:40:26 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201081538.q0869PBF018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > "? the millers began to _break ground_ ?" What does this mean, in this context? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:49:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:49:05 -0500 Subject: More on soft opening; soft/hard left/right In-Reply-To: <201201082141.q0869PQf018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the "soft" left/right is the one at the most obtuse angle. I've never come across this use of "soft," before. Interesting! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 21:55:00 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:55:00 -0500 Subject: "slang" antedated (?) to 1753 In-Reply-To: <201201081647.q08AjwvX006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Stephen's find is very interesting, but perhaps he is not looking at Green's Dictionary of Slang in _assessing_ this citation. Stephen's not "assessing." He's querying. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:04:50 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:04:50 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082141.q089pWW4013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would assume that The Millers was the nickname of the Columbus team. They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching. VS-) On 1/8/2012 4:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> "??? the millers began to _break ground_ ???" > What does this mean, in this context? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 8 22:18:23 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:18:23 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082205.q08Ajw4F006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Other way around. The Minneapolis team was traditionally known as the Millers right back to the old Western League (a forerunner of today's AL, by the way, although Minneapolis stayed in the minors until the Washington Senators moved there and became the Twins.) Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 5:04 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would assume that The Millers was the nickname of the Columbus team. > They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching. > > VS-) > > On 1/8/2012 4:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>> "? the millers began to _break ground_ ?" >> What does this mean, in this context? >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 8 22:25:58 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:25:58 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082131.q089pWVo013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first two seem fine to me from my Edinburgh days; I don't know "chinky" in this context, though it could be regional and just not Scots or Northumbrian. London slang tends to spread, but there are plenty of other areas with slang of their own that stay put unless the media get hold of it (cf. the Beatles' "gear", which was Scouse, unlike "fab", which was general British, and "bird", which was originally West Midland [and medievally old] and had become general British already). Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, > > "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." > > Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, > > "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" > > Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) > > *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough > cockneys," if that's any help.) > > Also heard: > > "He's _chinky_(?)" > > in context, equivalent to. > > "He's _lively_" > > et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:31:02 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:31:02 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082218.q0869PSf018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then my reading of it doesn't work. VS-) On 1/8/2012 5:18 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > Other way around. The Minneapolis team was traditionally known as the Millers right back to the old Western League (a forerunner of today's AL, by the way, although Minneapolis stayed in the minors until the Washington Senators moved there and became the Twins.) > > Paul Johnston > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:31:16 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:31:16 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082131.q0869PQP018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe your "chinky" is in fact "cheeky". What happens at the fifth question, when all the limbs are gone? DanG On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Spoken by a woman *from Burfield(?) / Warfield(?) / ?field says, > > "I would have given my right _leg_ to know the answer." > > Like the time that a Brit friend said to me, > > "Why, that should be right up your _street_!" > > Do Brits do this just to mess with our minds? ;-) > > *(Later, the woman describes her family as being made up of "tough > cockneys," if that's any help.) > > Also heard: > > "He's _chinky_(?)" > > in context, equivalent to. > > "He's _lively_" > > et sim., apparently. Said of a child bouncing on a mini-trampoline. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 22:34:34 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 17:34:34 -0500 Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 In-Reply-To: <201201080744.q0869P4B018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dave Wilton has a web page on this topic at the Word Origins website here: http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/say_uncle/ Michael Quinion has a webpage on the topic at World Wide Words here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-say1.htm Both mention the parrot joke and provide a citation for the Iowa Citizen on October 9, 1891. Doug Wilson found it and placed it in the ADS archive in 2005. Here is a citation for the same tale a bit earlier in the LA Times which acknowledges a source called "Spare Moments". Cite: 1891 August 21, Los Angeles Times, A Bright Parrot, Page 8, Column 4, Los Angeles, California. (ProQuest) A gentleman was boasting that his parrot would repeat anything he told him. For example, he told him several times, before some friends, to say ?Uncle,? but he would not repeat it. In anger he seized the bird and half twisting his neck said: ?Say ?uncle,? you beggar!? and threw him into the fowl pen, in which he had ten prize fowls. Shortly afterward, thinking he had killed the parrot, he went to the pen. To his surprise he saw nine of the fowls dead on the floor, with their necks wrung, and the parrot standing on the tenth twisting his neck and screaming, ?Say ?uncle,? you beggar! say 'uncle!" (Typos possible in the original text and mine.) Stephen Goranson posted a cite with this phrase: >> R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle." Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I don't find clear mention of a child or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Inherent in Doug's comment is one possible interpretation. Drake may have had a young nephew who had not yet said "uncle" to him. Garson On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 2:44 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 1/7/2012 11:58 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Stephen Goranson >> Subject: "say uncle" antedated (?) to 1887 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> One of the proposals for the origin of "say uncle" (OED: "to acknowledge de= >> feat, to cry for mercy") >> is a 1890 joke about a parrot urged to say that. >> >> If the following is interpreted in the idiomatic sense, then the 1890-attes= >> ted joke would be antedated: >> .... >> Dr. Martin: "Give one of the symptoms of shock." Senior: "A cold, flabby sw= >> eat." >> R. F. Drake wonders why the little fellow doesn't learn to say "uncle.".... >> >> The Michigan Argonaut, Oct. 29, 1887, vol. 6, no. 4, p. 34 col. 3. > -- > > Interesting. > > I see that this passage is in a student periodical, in a section devoted > to little items of current news among dental students. R. E. Drake was > one of these students. I don't know who/what the "little fellow" was: > probably this is some kind of inside joke. I don't think one can know > the referent from this short item. I don't find clear mention of a child > or pet associated with R. E. Drake. Apparently he belonged to a > fraternity and played brass instruments. I suppose he was Rollin Edwards > Drake (b. 1868). > > The preceding item with Dr. Martin appears presumably unrelated. I > suppose this is just for humor: some senior student said "flabby" > instead of "clammy", I suppose, ha ha. > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 8 22:34:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 14:34:57 -0800 Subject: Paris-Brest Message-ID: Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 23:07:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:07:59 -0500 Subject: Paris-Brest In-Reply-To: <201201082235.q0869PTt018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Choux pastry" would suggest that it is basically a doughnut-shaped cream puff with praline in the cream. Sounds very 1891. I suppose, if you give it a touch of chocolate icing, you can call it eclair doughnut. Either Balsan made a particularly exceptional eclair or GQ is full of hot air--and their people don't get out much. VS-) On 1/8/2012 5:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. > > According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). > > Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. > > http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. > > A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 8 23:14:50 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:14:50 -0500 Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" In-Reply-To: <201201071836.q0766V0U020430@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Was it copyedited? DanG On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Headline: "_Feds Plans_ To Close 1,200 Data Centers" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "_The U.S. government_ now expects to shutter at least 1,200 data centers?" > > > Is "Feds" unconsciously being construed as singular because "The U.S. > government" is singular? Or is this merely a typo? > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 00:43:17 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 19:43:17 -0500 Subject: More for the "bro-" files: "brony" In-Reply-To: <201112200533.pBK5Pd1G019206@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > My son told me about "bronies", i.e. grown male fans of My Little Pony. More > information at: > http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/06/bronies-my-little-ponys/ > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bronies > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203707504577012141105109140.html > > I find the portmanteau "brony" interesting because in words like "bromance" > (and in most other portmanteau and compound nouns) the second element is the > head: A bromance is a kind of romance; a motel is a kind of hotel. In > contrast, a brony is not a kind of pony, but a kind of bro. There was some discussion of "brony" on Language Log, since it was a nominee in the WOTY voting (ultimately winning in the Most Unnecessary category). This comment is of interest, since it turns out a "brony" *is* a kind of "pony", in the relevant subculture: --- http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3685#comment-161432 [Greg D:] I'm pretty sure "pony" is the head of "brony". In the My Little Pony universe, the characters say things like "everypony" and "anypony" and "nopony" instead of the standard English equivalents, and bronies (such as myself) when speaking with each other about the show will often do the same thing. On various blogs and podcasts dedicated to the fandom, the audience will often be addressed something like "all the ponies out there reading/listening". "Brony" means "pony who is a bro"?and that, as well as I understand it, is actually what bronies mean to say when they use it. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 01:54:32 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 01:54:32 +0000 Subject: missing from woty In-Reply-To: <201201090053.q08Ajw8X006500@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Missing from any ADS word of the yearly lists are smartphone robo underwater Maybe next year. If not winners these should at least make the list of nominees to reflect the times like in previous years. After all tablet and subprime are there. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 02:09:26 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:09:26 -0800 Subject: Paris-Brest In-Reply-To: <201201082308.q0869PUh018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, I had a little bit of a problem with the description, but it definitely looks different from the typical cream puff. Maybe kind of like how every difference in style yield a different hat name: porkpie, homburg, Tyrolean.... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 8, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > "Choux pastry" would suggest that it is basically a doughnut-shaped > cream puff with praline in the cream. Sounds very 1891. > > I suppose, if you give it a touch of chocolate icing, you can call it > eclair doughnut. Either Balsan made a particularly exceptional eclair or > GQ is full of hot air--and their people don't get out much. > > VS-) > > On 1/8/2012 5:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Google gives 138K raw hits for this dessert. It's not in the OED, though. >> >> According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Brest), it was named the best dessert in the US in 2010 (the one served at Balsan in Chicago, that is). >> >> Also, it appears that the term has spread beyond merely a praline filling, something not noted in the Wikipedia article. >> >> http://ow.ly/8m8iH has "Paris Brest (choux pastry with mocha filling, France)." It appears that the Paris-Brest here is basically a cream puff, with the top half the same size as the bottom half. >> >> A chocolate Paris-Brest (failure) can be found at http://ow.ly/8m8o3. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:39:08 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:39:08 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082231.q089pWXe013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I believe your "chinky" is in fact "cheeky". I considered that possibility, but I decided that it didn't matter, this being only an anecdote. I heard "chinky," thought, "cheeky?", then thought, "WTH." IAC, the mother - or should that be, "the mom"? And I used to think that it was funny that _mama_ is the formal word for "mother" in Rumanian! - was saying that her tough-cockney child, though afflicted with progeria, was, nevertheless, nick. (Pswaydo-cockney rhyming slang: "lively and quick, must be Saint _Nick_." ) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:47:19 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:47:19 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201082226.q089pWXK013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > _"bird"_ ? _medievally old_ ... Well, that gives the lie to my claim, since ca. 1948, that it's a rip-off of "chick"! :-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 04:51:07 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:51:07 -0500 Subject: coincidental or not (?) "Too much Malarkey" 1904 In-Reply-To: <201201082205.q0869PRh018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > They "broke ground" by pounding hits off the Minneapolis pitching Makes as much sense as "kicked ass," used similarly. In BE, at least. Thankx! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 9 05:13:44 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:13:44 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201090448.q0869Pjx018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It surprised me , too, to see "burd(e) (usual ME spelling, indicating that there was once a front rounded vowel in it, unlike regular "bird" < OE bridd) in medieval texts from Gloucestershire to Lancashire. The usual etymologies suggested are either from OE gebyrde "high-born", or what I personally suspect, a metathesized form of OE bryd "bride". I'm sure American "chick" may have reinforced it, though. Paul Johnston On Jan 8, 2012, at 11:47 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: >> _"bird"_ ? _medievally old_ ... > > Well, that gives the lie to my claim, since ca. 1948, that it's a > rip-off of "chick"! :-) > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 05:32:25 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 00:32:25 -0500 Subject: Heard on trash TV: Britspeak In-Reply-To: <201201090513.q0869PqB018625@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Paul Johnston wrote: > what I personally suspect, a metathesized form of OE bryd "bride". I prefer that analysis, too. A variant retained and slangified! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 08:11:20 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:11:20 -0500 Subject: More for the "bro-" files: "brony" In-Reply-To: <201201090053.q089pWak013779@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > There was some discussion of "brony" on Language Log, since it was a > nominee in the WOTY voting (ultimately winning in the Most Unnecessary > category). This comment is of interest, since it turns out a "brony" > *is* a kind of "pony", in the relevant subculture: Correction: "brony" won for Least Likely to Succeed, not Most Unnecessary. > --- > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3685#comment-161432 > [Greg D:] I'm pretty sure "pony" is the head of "brony". In the My > Little Pony universe, the characters say things like "everypony" and > "anypony" and "nopony" instead of the standard English equivalents, > and bronies (such as myself) when speaking with each other about the > show will often do the same thing. On various blogs and podcasts > dedicated to the fandom, the audience will often be addressed > something like "all the ponies out there reading/listening". > "Brony" means "pony who is a bro"?and that, as well as I understand > it, is actually what bronies mean to say when they use it. > --- -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 08:13:31 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:13:31 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201070423.q06JwfLU009291@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > And the winner is... "occupy". > > http://www.americandialect.org/occupy-is-the-2011-word-of-the-year > > Full press release, with winners in the various categories, is here: > > http://www.americandialect.org/2011-Word-of-the-Year-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf Here's my wrap-up: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/3091/ with video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNTKesG4zCw And Geoff Pullum also had a WOTY write-up for the Chronicle of Higher Education's Lingua Franca blog: http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/01/08/the-year-of-occupy/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 10:01:58 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 02:01:58 -0800 Subject: Japchae Message-ID: The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. I didn't do an exhaustive search for all spellings, but the only hit I found on the ADS archives is "chapchae'" by Barry Popik in 2002 (http://ow.ly/8mwcm). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 15:24:24 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:24:24 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/9/2012 05:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of >those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While >that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it >increases the number of spellings of the dish. Does that actually help pronunciation? I've always said, or thought, "chae" as rhyming with "tie", whereas I would take "chay" to rhyme with "(blue)jay". Am I wrong? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 15:56:10 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:56:10 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus Message-ID: Delonte West has been banned from going to the White House for a meeting of the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks with President Obama. He failed a "routine background check" by the President's security team. The linguistic item that interested me in the story (on "Ball Don't Lie", by Kelly Dwyer)** is: West is quoted as saying "It's going to be ashamed the President isn't going to get a chance to meet me. I'm the president of my house.'' Is this the irresponsible passive (it ... ashamed), because West didn't dare criticize the (other) president directly; or spoken ungrammaticity; or someone's typo? (I will skip over the hubris of the metaphor of a meeting of equals, both heads of state.) * The writer used "left off". ** No I don't read sports blogs -- this is Yahoo's lead news story this morning. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 16:04:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:04:06 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus In-Reply-To: <201201091556.q09FuB1P027377@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A perhaps-important correction -- not the lead story any more, as Yahoo rotates them. But presumably still accessible somewhere in the cloud ... at http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/mavericks-delonte-west-m-banned-going-white-house-022258022.html JSB At 1/9/2012 10:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Delonte West has been banned from going to the White House for a >meeting of the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks with President >Obama. He failed a "routine background check" by the President's >security team. The linguistic item that interested me in the story >(on "Ball Don't Lie", by Kelly Dwyer)** is: > >West is quoted as saying "It's going to be ashamed the President >isn't going to get a chance to meet me. I'm the president of my >house.'' Is this the irresponsible passive (it ... ashamed), >because West didn't dare criticize the (other) president directly; or >spoken ungrammaticity; or someone's typo? (I will skip over the >hubris of the metaphor of a meeting of equals, both heads of state.) > >* The writer used "left off". >** No I don't read sports blogs -- this is Yahoo's lead news story >this morning. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 18:35:59 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:35:59 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091524.q0969lrq000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 7:24 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/9/2012 05:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of >> those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While >> that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it >> increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Does that actually help pronunciation? I've always said, or thought, > "chae" as rhyming with "tie", whereas I would take "chay" to rhyme > with "(blue)jay". Am I wrong? > > Joel > Wikipedia has ??, so the vowel is like an Italian "e." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language#Sounds specifically says /?/ for ?. So the "y" ending definitely helps :) BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 9 18:43:33 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:43:33 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091002.q0969lC2000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. -- I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may be about right for many US English-speakers. As for pronunciation .... To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... some may hear /dZap tSE/. First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should be [just as] OK in the current word too. Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English (at 0:08 etc.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully (at 1:16): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 18:54:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:54:20 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091844.q09G0blm000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >> >> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. > -- > > I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may > be about right for many US English-speakers. > > As for pronunciation .... > > To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar > with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... > some may hear /dZap tSE/. > > First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear > "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most > Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as > rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should > be [just as] OK in the current word too. > > Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of > Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with > imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and > waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. > > It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a > Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would > furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. > > Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI > > Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English > (at 0:08 etc.): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is > > Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully > (at 1:16): > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 9 19:26:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:26:06 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <4F0B3555.6060104@nb.net> Message-ID: At 1/9/2012 01:43 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >"jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). Well, I guess that's somewhere between "tie" (my take) and "way" (Benjamin's, perhaps). No wonder the Romanization is a problem! >I guess most >Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >rhyming with "Sunday", What do I know? What have I heard? I pronounce it rhyming with "to die" (a car to die for? to die in?). >so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >be [just as] OK in the current word too. > >Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. A good point, even if I could remember the last time I heard "jap chai" pronounced by waiters -- normally only I have to say it, and they are polite enough not to correct me. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 20:44:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:44:48 -0500 Subject: escalator Message-ID: Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED has. http://goo.gl/IP1Up > Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff > victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's > plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be more. The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the "attrib." part: > 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the > like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, > wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 20:48:53 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 15:48:53 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <4F0B51C0.9070505@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): http://goo.gl/HPpQd > The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= > blown. Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. VS-) On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED > has. > > http://goo.gl/IP1Up >> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. > > This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be > more. > > The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the > "attrib." part: > >> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. > > This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 21:00:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:00:20 -0800 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092048.q09HnKff028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: ----- Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): > > http://goo.gl/HPpQd >> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >> blown. > > Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco > (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. > > VS-) > > On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >> has. >> >> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >> >> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >> more. >> >> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >> "attrib." part: >> >>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >> >> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >> >> VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 21:00:40 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:00:40 -0500 Subject: Delonte West kicked/left* off the bus In-Reply-To: <201201091556.q0969l5W011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "It's going to be _ashamed the_ President ,,," I haven't heard West speak, but, unless West is *the* exemplar of clarity in "standard" American-English enunciation, which he couples with an astonishing lack of control of the syntax of that language, there's no way that he pronounced [d] immediately followed by [D]. My interpretation, based only upon my own _Sprachgefuehl_, is that West said, "It's going to be a shame _that_ the President ?" and whatever totally-unfamiliar-with-the-sound-pattern-of-the-English-of-the-colored-polloi reporter was listening simply pulled that bullshit "quote" essentially out of his ass. But, of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 9 21:06:53 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 13:06:53 -0800 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092100.q09KI0c6011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, I think that's a false hit. "Take back" probably means "pick up." BB On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. > > I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: > > ----- > Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> >> Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): >> >> http://goo.gl/HPpQd >>> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >>> blown. >> >> Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco >> (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >>> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >>> has. >>> >>> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >>> >>> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >>> more. >>> >>> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >>> "attrib." part: >>> >>>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >>> >>> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >>> >>> VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 21:09:52 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:09:52 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <4F0B51C0.9070505@gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I found one more example of naked escalator 2. http://goo.gl/XvOUs > Maybe the SEC has an escalator in their contract that increases the > total value of the TV contract, but I?m guessing that it still will > result in a reduction in the dollars paid to each school when compared > to the amount paid had an additional school not joined the conference. Burka did not make it clear, but these really are "Mark Cuban's words"--because they are taken off his own blog. http://goo.gl/Tk0Hg Quoting the above passage, another blogger adds, http://goo.gl/B5eqU > Either the SEC has an escalator or they believe that the temporary > losses outweigh what they will get when it comes time for renegotiation. Another contract: http://goo.gl/1s5Af > The Daily News first reported that the Jets signed the fifth-round > pick to a four-year, $1.99 million deal that included a $199,000 > signing bonus Friday. Escalators in the final year could make the deal > worth as much as $2.73 million. http://goo.gl/iG5M9 > The contract has an escalator in the fourth year that could make the > value of the deal worth $2.73 million. And a few more: http://goo.gl/N25Ey > Qatar?s contract for LNG with India has an escalator that will raise > it to $7.50 per million BTU at JCC of $60, and India is buying 44 spot > LNG cargoes during 2007 at average of $9 per million BTU. http://goo.gl/8BRmH > I don't remember the exact language but I know Miles' contract has an > escalator that boosts his contract to $1 more than the highest paid > coach in the SEC. http://goo.gl/eFgOc > Chicago Bears PK Robbie Gould likely will be helped by the new kickoff > rules because he has an escalator in his contract that kicks in if he > records a certain amount of touchbacks. http://goo.gl/co7zs > This means that if your contract has an escalator it won't count > towards that escalator. I also found another instance of 1.a. "cart escalator" for a /different/ Target: http://goo.gl/z5FpU > Everyone is amazed by the escalator because it takes the carts up and > down. In fact, all the comments that I found that mention cart escalators refer to one of several Target stores that have them. The ones at IKEA are different because the carts ride separately from the customers. VS-) On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED > has. > > http://goo.gl/IP1Up >> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. > > This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be > more. > > The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the > "attrib." part: > >> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. > > This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 22:06:52 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:06:52 -0500 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <201201092106.q09HnKi1028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a citation for an "escalator for shopping carts" in 1970. Cite: 1970 May 13, Beaver County Times, An American Housewife In Israel By Judith Kraiem, Advertising section, Page 10, [GNA Page 52], Beaver County, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) Most of my shopping is done in the large modern supermarket not far from my apartment. This supermarket features double floors and an escalator for shopping carts, something not to be found as yet in New York. On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: escalator > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry, I think that's a false hit. "Take back" probably means "pick up." BB > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> FWIW, I saw one of those for carrying luggage carts at the Seoul airport around 1992. >> >> I found one citation in 1999 (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1999/10/msg02556.html), but surely earlier mention must be somewhere: >> >> ----- >> Passengers will see the watering wall during their descending to 1st floor by escalators to take back their luggage and the naturally made ceiling and pillars are expected to relive the fatigue and exhaustion. >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 9, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> >>> Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): >>> >>> http://goo.gl/HPpQd >>>> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >>>> blown. >>> >>> Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco >>> (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. >>> >>> VS-) >>> >>> On 1/9/2012 3:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >>>> Also adjectival use (as in "escalator clause"), which is all that OED >>>> has. >>>> >>>> http://goo.gl/IP1Up >>>>> Tebow has an escalator of $250,000 in his contract for each playoff >>>>> victory assuming he participated in at least 70 percent of Denver's >>>>> plays during the requisite season, according to an NFL source. >>>> >>>> This is the first time I've seen it "naked", but there is likely to be >>>> more. >>>> >>>> The meaning matches the OED definition /exactly/, aside from the >>>> "attrib." part: >>>> >>>>> 2. /attrib/., esp. designating a clause, contract, agreement, or the >>>>> like, that provides for an increase (occas., a decrease) in prices, >>>>> wages, armaments, etc., to meet specified contingencies. >>>> >>>> This does not match, however, 1.a. and 1.b. >>>> >>>> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 9 22:23:30 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:23:30 -0500 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" Message-ID: On MSNBC, Megan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) An emoticon is a small squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 9 23:02:35 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:02:35 -0500 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" In-Reply-To: <201201092233.q09HnKql028932@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Ben. This story is rippling across the memesphere. Huffington Post has a story; and so do New York Mag, Breitbart.tv, BuzzFeed, Daily Caller, and other organizations. The quick acting Daily Caller has actually created an "emoticon" for the occasion. I cannot post it here because attachments are not allowed on this mailing list. If you wish to see the graphic the link to the page with the story and image is below. [Begin excerpt] Whether she meant to or not, McCain inspired us at The Daily Caller to envision what an ?emoticon of privacy? would look like: [End excerpt] Short link: http://goo.gl/ECXWq Long link: http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/09/meghan-mccain-obama-deserves-a-small-emoticon-of-privacy/ On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On MSNBC, Megan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": > > http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html > > A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it > twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) An emoticon is a small > squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Tue Jan 10 00:44:20 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:44:20 +0700 Subject: escalator In-Reply-To: <75.47.03291.DB25B0F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Sent from my iPad On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:48, Victor Steinbok wrote: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: escalator > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also an expansion on 1.a. (moving staircase ... for carrying passengers): > > http://goo.gl/HPpQd >> The Target in East Liberty has an escalator for shopping carts. Mind= >> blown. > > Similar devices exist in some IKEA stores and some multi-level Costco > (in NYC), so this usage was inevitable. Been around for years in Europe. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 04:50:55 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:50:55 -0500 Subject: American-made Message-ID: Toyota commercials are pushing the Tundra ( http://goo.gl/RMFVv ) as "more American-made than" US-branded models (there are versions with Ford and Chevrolet as targets). It's also worth noting that this has set car bloggers and discussion fora on fire--there is a bunch of recent posts trying to analyze the spot. http://goo.gl/hDGSk > Tundra more American Made than Ford or Chevy > Discuss http://goo.gl/aNbBK > I personally know many construction workers that will never be > convinced a Tundra is more American than a Dodge made in Mexico, which > is partially owned by Fiat. And Toyota is not the only one that gets this treatment. http://goo.gl/1kmyb > I have heard it said that Victory is more American made than Harley > these days. I don't know how true that is, but can anyone verify that, > and what source they use for their information? What percentage of a > Victory motorcycle is American made? Thanks. I'm somewhat irritated on the whole comparative on "American-made". But I understand the reason for this--there are official measures and indices that show just how "American-made" different cars are. And when the first such measure was developed and mandated, the top car that qualified on the "domestic content" index was the Honda Accord. But I still find "X-made" to be all-or-nothing, not a comparative. YMMV VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 05:03:50 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 21:03:50 -0800 Subject: Fisher revival Message-ID: About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: http://ow.ly/8nN07 http://ow.ly/8nN0L Benjamin Barrett Seattle, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 06:19:22 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:19:22 -0500 Subject: Quote: growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional (1987 June 17) Message-ID: The "QUOTE ... UNQUOTE" website for the BBC Radio program has posted the following query (dated July 2011): Q4293 'Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional' was something written in a 1994 book by Elaine R. Davis. Any earlier offers? Here is a cite a few years earlier. The attribution is vague and may be rhetorical. Cite: 1987 June 17, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, From The Gulf To Dormont by Tom Hritz, Page 4-W, Column 1, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VOlRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ym4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6187,5362642& [Begin excerpt] My pal Harvey is forever reminding me that while growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. [End excerpt] I first found this cite several months ago, and now the obvious queries do not match the text in the Google News Archive. Several of the major full-text databases are remarkably flaky. I recommend taking screen shots and saving links when gathering data. The link above does lead to the correct newspaper page as of January 10, 2012. (The above citation and other cites relevant to "Quote ? Unquote" queries are also being sent directly to Nigel Rees.) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 14:32:15 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 09:32:15 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201100542.q0A5LqHk032186@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On the Bruce Peninsula, between Georgian Bay and Lake Huron, I've heard "fisher" used only in reference to the largest member of the weasel family, a beautiful and fierce predator that is fairly common there. In the local papers, "fisherman" seems to be used, especially in articles on fishing competitions, in a gender neutral way. Fishers are sometimes confused with martens, but they're bigger. Tip to tail they may reach four feet. Folk etymology claims that they eat fish, but they very rarely do so. Their habitat tends to be arborial, and they're much more likely to eat pets than fish. The OED assumes "fish+er" as the etymology, but the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_%28animal%29 suggests a Dutch origin: "The name implies a diet of fish yet it seldom dines on aquatic organisms. Early Dutch settlers noted its similarity to the European polecat (Mustela putorius). Fitchet is a name derived from the Dutch word visse, meaning 'nasty'. In the French language, the pelt of a polecat is called fiche or fichet.[3]" Herb On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Jan 10 15:26:06 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 10:26:06 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 10 15:37:31 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:37:31 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Trade Union" Message-ID: trade union (OED 1831) 1828 _The Co-Operator_ 1 July 1 (Making of the Modern World) A Trade Union is a society of workmen uniting for the purpose of mutual self-protection on the subject of wages. 1829 _Quarterly Review_ Nov. 373 (British Periodicals) At present, the working classes are in a state of perpetual hostility with their masters, and may be said in the _trade union clubs_ to keep a standing treasury for carrying on the war. 1830 _Liverpool Mercury_ 8 Jan. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) _Bolton._ -- _Trades' Union._ 1830 _Manchester Guardian_ 27 Mar. 4 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Prisoner ... belonged to the trades' union. They had instructed him to stand up for wages. 1830 _Herald to the Trades' Advocate_ 4 Dec. 173 (JSTOR) These papers ... will never be constituted, unless a Trades' Union throughout Scotland be instituted. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Tue Jan 10 16:36:47 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:36:47 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Take a look at this!! Message-ID:

ive learned that things dont aways work out as planned this makes it impossible for me to fall behind I had nowhere to turn
http://krtko.borec.cz/profile/80WayneRoberts/ miracles really do exist
this is the real deal

see you later.

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Tue Jan 10 17:10:54 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:10:54 -0600 Subject: teen slang phone app (UK) Message-ID: http://www.saga.co.uk/lifestyle/people/news/woteva-app-160.aspx OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It?s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you?ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ?Woteva? (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ?submit an entry? function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we?re just showing off). It?s FREE too so you don?t need to part with any moolah (OK, we?ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. ?That track is meaty, dude.? Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty ? teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever ? a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It?s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you?ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ?Woteva? (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ?submit an entry? function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we?re just showing off). It?s FREE too so you don?t need to part with any moolah (OK, we?ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. ?That track is meaty, dude.? Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty ? teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever ? a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. OMG!!!!! Saga launches teenage translator app. It?s well jokes By Saga correspondent , Wednesday 7 December 2011 Do you know your ding from your bling? Your butterz from your crutterz? In the eyes of a teen, are you ream or radio? Ever wondered what LOL actually means? Well, wonder no more. Over-50s group Saga has come to the rescue with an app that translates hundreds of slang words and phrases used by teens. So now you?ll actually be able to understand what your children and grandchildren are on about. Named ?Woteva? (a favourite among the teen species), the app enables users to search or scroll through a dictionary of 500 words and their meanings. An audio function speaks aloud many of the words, enunciated in perfect RP to ease the translation process. Propa bo. Plus, users can share the app with their frenz (or bluds, if you will) by texting, emailing or posting their favourite words to Facebook and Twitter. Although please note, this may cause extreme embarrassment to your offspring. In their eyes, this would most probably not be nang (look it up). So, why not humiliate them further and upload your own words to the app, via the ?submit an entry? function? Download the Woteva app on your iPhone today to find out what makes it so awesome/radicoli/dark (OK, OK, we?re just showing off). It?s FREE too so you don?t need to part with any moolah (OK, we?ll stop now). Our 10 faves Dissociative Facebook identity disorder - Someone whose Facebook image and real life image is completely at odds Geekstress - A female geek. These can be very intimidating to teenage boys, especially attractive ones Googleheimer's disease - You know what you want to search for on Google, but by the time you reach your computer you have completely forgotten what it was. Who are you again? Hiberdating - Someone who suddenly drops all their other friends when they start dating Hot mess - Someone who is flustered, dishevelled and maybe short of time but radiates a certain sensuality Meaty - Good. ?That track is meaty, dude.? Seldom applied to vegetarian dishes, however tasty ? teens don't tend to do irony Powerpuff presentation - A presentation that is full of animation and fancy graphics but completely devoid of any substance Premake - The original version of a song that a modern band has remade or redone. The teen will often doubt the existence of the premake Screen saver - The blank and sometimes blissful expression that sometimes comes across a person's face when daydreaming Woteva - Whatever ? a catch-all phrase often signifying reluctant agreement Click here to download the free app now. Geeks and geekstresses, share this page with your frenz by clicking the social networking icons at the top of the page. -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 19:36:55 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:36:55 -0500 Subject: Mock Definition: Secrecy: The art of telling a thing to only one person at a time Message-ID: This is another post inspired by a "QUOTE?UNQUOTE" query. The query appears on the website and was discussed in the October 2011 and the January 2012 issues of a "QUOTE?UNQUOTE" Newsletter. [Begin query] Q4302 'A secret is something you only tell one person at a time' - known by the 1950s, is this a quotation or just a saying? [End query] Here is a relevant citation for an article that appeared in multiple newspapers in 1905. The word "secrecy" was used instead of "secret'. The title of the article was "Definitions" and it consisted of a series of short mock definitions. The acknowledgement given at the end of the story indicates that the text was reprinted from the "New Orleans Times Democrat" newspaper. Cite: 1905 July 09, Lexington Herald, Definitions [Acknowledgment: New Orleans Times Democrat], Page 8, Column 4, Lexington, Kentucky.(GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] Patriotism: A momentary excitement due to the explosion of powder. ... Secrecy: The art of telling a thing to only one person at a time. Error: The mistaken act of another. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 21:39:44 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:39:44 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! Message-ID: Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:10:02 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:10:02 -0800 Subject: Gay old time Message-ID: The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ?carefree? or ?bright and showy? cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. Googling yields many hits. Here are three: 1. http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/05/grand-theft-auto-gay-tony/ "We?ll Have a Gay Old Time With Next Grand Theft Auto," Chris Kohler, May 26, 2009 ----- Grand Theft Auto: The Ballad of Gay Tony will cast you not as the title character, a ?legendary nightclub impresario.? Instead, you?ll play Luis Lopez, his assistant slash hired goon. To be fair, Rockstar?s announcement on Tuesday stopped short of explicitly specifying whether Tony got his nickname because he is gay as in ?jovial,? or gay as in ?his name is written in a variety of sparkly rainbow colors.? ----- 2. http://worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7282 "A Gay, Old Time?" Jerry Newcombe, June 21, 2011 Not any good quote, but the anti-gay nature of the article makes this use interesting. ----- When The Flintstones theme first crowed, "we'll have a gay, old time," it would have been difficult to imagine how the meaning of that phrase has changed to a cultural phenomenon sweeping the nation. ----- 3. http://totalsteelers.com/2011/11/14/week-10-recap-steelers-have-a-gay-old-time/ "Week 10 Recap: Steelers Have A Gay Old Time," Chris, November 14, 2011 Given the deeply closeted nature of American football, it is particularly interesting that this phrase was used to titillate or provoke football fans into reading the article. The expression is not used in the article; "Gay" refers to player Will.i.am Gay. It will be only a few decades before this title becomes a head-scratcher. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:28:11 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:28:11 -0500 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader Message-ID: ... on "Illin"--here http://goo.gl/ehFJV VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:35:01 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:35:01 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102139.q0AKVald010717@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is coffee served or featured in any other way. VS-) On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. > > Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. > > The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. > > The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) > > I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:37:43 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:37:43 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <4F0CBD15.4060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry--"coffee shop" is the formal designation for Dutch suppliers, but "coffee house" is heard occasionally from the customers (or potential customers). "Coffee-shop" as listed under "coffee" in OED also lacks this definition. VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of > "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal > cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). > There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an > organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured > (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is > coffee served or featured in any other way. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" >> (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) >> while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries >> variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. >> >> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as >> alternatives to "coffeehouse" >> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open >> form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" >> (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). >> My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >> >> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia >> article that is also closed. >> >> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. >> (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >> >> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to >> coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:40:25 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:40:25 -0800 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader In-Reply-To: <201201102228.q0AHLVik026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This also has a nice use of "head" meaning aficionado: "hip-hop head." I think that use of "head" has been discussed on this list before. When I recently asked a friend who is visiting his parents in Alaska whether he was having fun on a snow machine, he responded: "Ripping up the hills on skis is more like it, my parents are very anti-motorhead." BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > ... on "Illin"--here http://goo.gl/ehFJV > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:43:41 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:43:41 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102237.q0AIrFUQ011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on "coffee shop" amsterdam shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Sorry--"coffee shop" is the formal designation for Dutch suppliers, but > "coffee house" is heard occasionally from the customers (or potential > customers). "Coffee-shop" as listed under "coffee" in OED also lacks > this definition. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 5:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Although the OED definition does not exclude it, the Dutch use of >> "coffeehouse" to mean "an officially sanctioned supplier of legal >> cannabis" does not appear (of course, they were not around in 1876). >> There is also an occasional use of "coffeehouse" to represent an >> organized but informal gathering where musical performance is featured >> (usually guitar-based or other "folk" music). In neither instance is >> coffee served or featured in any other way. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" >>> (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) >>> while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries >>> variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. >>> >>> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as >>> alternatives to "coffeehouse" >>> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open >>> form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" >>> (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). >>> My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >>> >>> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia >>> article that is also closed. >>> >>> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. >>> (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >>> >>> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to >>> coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 22:43:29 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:43:29 -0500 Subject: Gay old time In-Reply-To: <201201102210.q0AIrFRg011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ?carefree? or ?bright and showy? cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". > > The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. "High old time" is another. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 10 22:49:24 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:49:24 -0800 Subject: Gay old time In-Reply-To: <201201102244.q0AHLVjY026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The OED paraphrases Burchfield about the word "gay," saying, "...gay in its earlier meanings of ?carefree? or ?bright and showy? cannot readily be used today without at least a sense of double entendre". >> >> The expression "gay old time" is probably one of the best way to illustrate that, though the OED does not include it. > > "High old time" is another. I did not know that. One hit: http://addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-old-time-in-rhode-island.html "A High Old Time in Rhode Island: Feds release annual drug numbers." BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 23:28:24 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:28:24 -0500 Subject: Gawker vs NYT Crossword Editor vs reader In-Reply-To: <201201102240.q0AIrFUi011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What does that do to "pothead", "dope-head", "coke-head", "shit-head"? VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > This also has a nice use of "head" meaning aficionado: "hip-hop head." I think that use of "head" has been discussed on this list before. > > When I recently asked a friend who is visiting his parents in Alaska whether he was having fun on a snow machine, he responded: "Ripping up the hills on skis is more like it, my parents are very anti-motorhead." > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 10 23:30:06 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:30:06 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102243.q0AHLVjU026293@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. VS-) On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Googling on > > "coffee shop" amsterdam > > shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 00:12:56 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:12:56 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201102330.q0AMj9Yq011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm referring to your statement that in the Netherlands, "coffee shop" is "the formal designation for Dutch suppliers." Looking over the e-mails, I'm now confused. What does "supplier" mean? BB On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to > go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Googling on >> >> "coffee shop" amsterdam >> >> shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. >> >> BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 00:24:00 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:24:00 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110013.q0AMj9e2011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: purveyors... legal purveyors of psychoactive substances that are illegal elsewhere. I've even seen "coffee shops" and "cafes" right next to each other and only one served coffee. VS-) On 1/10/2012 7:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I'm referring to your statement that in the Netherlands, "coffee shop" is "the formal designation for Dutch suppliers." > > Looking over the e-mails, I'm now confused. What does "supplier" mean? > > BB > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Generally, you don't find coffee in coffee shops--for that, you have to >> go to a cafe. AFAIK "coffee shop" is strictly cannabis in various forms. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 5:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Googling on >>> >>> "coffee shop" amsterdam >>> >>> shows that the location offering cannabis is a very popular use. >>> >>> BB > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 02:14:33 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:14:33 +0000 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091002.q0969lC2000736@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Japchae is discussed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is It's pronounced ~taapcchae (in truespel) ~t the ~t sound does have some extra hissing throughout it, like ~ch ~aa as in "Saab" ~cch is ~ch with the extra c indicating that the second syllable is stressed ~ae is long a as in "sundae" Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 02:01:58 -0800 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Japchae > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. > > Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. > > I didn't do an exhaustive search for all spellings, but the only hit I found on the ADS archives is "chapchae'" by Barry Popik in 2002 (http://ow.ly/8mwcm). > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 03:15:42 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:15:42 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201091854.q0969lOI011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Sitting in my mailbox for nearly 36 hours] JapChe Guevara? Chapchae seems to be predominant retail and menu spelling here. And by "here" I mean Boston, NYC and DC. I've seen a few initial j's, however, but not a lot of vowel alterations. There may be external reasons for this, however, as a number of Boston Korean restaurants had been started by "graduates" of two restaurants in Cambridge--I've talked to several who had been waiters, kitchen staff or even cleaning staff there. But this is changing, as the number of Korean restaurant in the area expands (my "survey" was done between 1999 and 2005 and there have been several new ones opened more recently). VS-) On 1/9/2012 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Japchae >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >>> >>> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. >> -- >> >> I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may >> be about right for many US English-speakers. >> >> As for pronunciation .... >> >> To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar >> with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... >> some may hear /dZap tSE/. >> >> First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >> "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most >> Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >> rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >> be [just as] OK in the current word too. >> >> Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >> Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >> imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >> waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. >> >> It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a >> Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would >> furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. >> >> Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI >> >> Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English >> (at 0:08 etc.): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is >> >> Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully >> (at 1:16): >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE > In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society -http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 03:40:44 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:40:44 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: coffee-house, v. To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) LH On Jan 10, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously hyphenate, open or close this compound. > > Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as alternatives to "coffeehouse" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=coffeehouse&submit.x=0&submit.y=0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. > > The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia article that is also closed. > > The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) > > I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 03:53:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:53:30 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110341.q0B2h700020590@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) VS-) On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = > used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = > typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = > hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = > is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: > > coffee-house, v. > > To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = > covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) > > LH > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> Grammar Girl decides to use "coffeehouse" = > (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/hyphens-in-compound-words.aspx) = > while I'm like "What?" She claims that different dictionaries variously = > hyphenate, open or close this compound. >> =20 >> Sure enough, Wiktionary gives the open and hyphenated forms as = > alternatives to "coffeehouse" = > (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coffeehouse) and the AHD has the open = > form as an alternative to "coffeehouse" = > (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=3Dcoffeehouse&submit.x=3D0&sub= > mit.y=3D0). My Mac spell checker doesn't mind the closed form. >> =20 >> The Mac dictionary has the closed form and provides the Wikipedia = > article that is also closed. >> =20 >> The OED has citations only through 1876; all but one are hyphenated. = > (Also, the OED definition and comment are also outdated.) >> =20 >> I don't see myself using the hyphenated or closed form soon, but, to = > coin a phrase, YouNeverKnow. >> =20 >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 03:56:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:56:48 -0800 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110353.q0B2h7PW018607@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge > than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious > game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national > teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) > > VS-) > > On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = >> used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = >> typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = >> hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = >> is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: >> >> coffee-house, v. >> >> To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = >> covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) >> >> LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 04:09:55 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:09:55 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. LH > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> "We" called it kibitzing, but we were doing a lot more of it in bridge >> than in poker. Priorities, priorities... Poker was a much more serious >> game. (But don't tell the guys I played with who ended up on national >> teams for bridge--they took it quite seriously.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/10/2012 10:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> There's also the verb "to coffeehouse" (and the gerund "coffeehousing") = >>> used in poker to refer to the practice of chatting during play, = >>> typically with the intention of misrepresenting the strength of one's = >>> hand. Not in the OED, but it may be a spinoff of a compound verb that = >>> is, with fox-hunting related cites going back to 1861: >>> >>> coffee-house, v. >>> >>> To indulge in gossip (orig. while waiting for the hounds to draw a = >>> covert, etc., during a fox-hunt) >>> >>> LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 04:39:56 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 23:39:56 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <201201110410.q0B2h7Ju000492@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You are right, of course, except that the groups I played with always expanded on the original definition, but probably because both kinds of talk came as a package (we often played with five players, rotating someone in--particularly when teaching a novice). Of course, the other default was "table-talk", although that was usually a "conversation" between partners--not with opponents. I'm sure there were other Yiddishism flying across the table, but I don't recall them. VS-) On 1/10/2012 11:09 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. > Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 06:12:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:12:13 -0500 Subject: Google changes Message-ID: http://goo.gl/9Etvi > In a change that's been called the "most radical transformation eve > r" > to Google's search engine, the Mountain View, California, company on > Tuesday announced an update called "Search, plus Your World," which > causes Google's robots to incorporate data from its social network as > well as the public Internet when delivering search results to people. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 06:27:06 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:27:06 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110315.q0B2h7Mw018607@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is a fascinating theory! I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. In any case, this points to a point of origin for a spelling diffusion, which is surely a linguistic gem. It may cause an effect of pronunciation differentiation if Anglophones in the Beltway adopt a "ch" sound while those in other areas adopt a "j" sound. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > JapChe Guevara? > > Chapchae seems to be predominant retail and menu spelling here. And by > "here" I mean Boston, NYC and DC. I've seen a few initial j's, however, > but not a lot of vowel alterations. There may be external reasons for > this, however, as a number of Boston Korean restaurants had been started > by "graduates" of two restaurants in Cambridge--I've talked to several > who had been waiters, kitchen staff or even cleaning staff there. But > this is changing, as the number of Korean restaurant in the area expands > (my "survey" was done between 1999 and 2005 and there have been several > new ones opened more recently). > > VS-) > > On 1/9/2012 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Japchae >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Jan 9, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: Japchae >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On 1/9/2012 5:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>>> Subject: Japchae >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> The other day, I saw "jap chay" written on the window of one of those teriyaki joints so often run by Korean immigrants. While that's a sensible way to spell it to assist with pronunciation, it increases the number of spellings of the dish. >>>> >>>> Wikipedia has three spellings: japchae, jabchae and chapchae. The first two have -y alternates on Google, bringing the total to at least seven spellings. ("Chabchay" does not seem to be in use.) This can be doubled by using a space between the two syllables. >>> -- >>> >>> I've also (many times) seen the first syllable written "chop", which may >>> be about right for many US English-speakers. >>> >>> As for pronunciation .... >>> >>> To my Anglophone ear the pronunciation by Koreans (and those familiar >>> with Korean) is /tSap tSE/ ... this would be my own pronunciation ... >>> some may hear /dZap tSE/. >>> >>> First syllable seems like "chop" or "chahp" (some may hear >>> "jop"/"jahp"), second like "cheh" (something like "chay"). I guess most >>> Anglophones pronounce "Hyundai" (which has the same final vowel) as >>> rhyming with "Sunday", so I guess the same final "-ay" /ej/ sound should >>> be [just as] OK in the current word too. >>> >>> Any expert, please feel fee to correct me; I am near-totally ignorant of >>> Korean myself. I note that there are various Romanizations, with >>> imperfect standardization. I note also that restaurateurs and cooks and >>> waiters are usually not language teachers or linguists. >>> >>> It seems to me that something like "japchae" is reasonable as a >>> Romanization of the Korean word, while something like "chopchay" would >>> furnish a reasonable US pronunciation, while "jap chay" fails both ways. >>> >>> Here is a presumably Korean person saying the word in Korean (at 0:30 etc.): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vjlXbytTI >>> >>> Here is a person of Korean origin saying the word while speaking English >>> (at 0:08 etc.): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=795_t6UY9is >>> >>> Here is a person of presumably North American origin saying it carefully >>> (at 1:16): >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHd_HpHkyDE >> In the Korean, an important distinction is that the second syllable starts with an aspirated consonant, but the first does not. For that reason, I prefer a "j" at the start. How about "jahp chay"? >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 11 07:27:29 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:27:29 -0500 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110627.q0B62UOn031822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/2012 1:27 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Japchae > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a fascinating theory! > > I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. > > In any case, this points to a point of origin for a spelling diffusion, which is surely a linguistic gem. It may cause an effect of pronunciation differentiation if Anglophones in the Beltway adopt a "ch" sound while those in other areas adopt a "j" sound. .... -- I think the new Romanization may very well change the prevalence of [spelling] pronunciations in the US. [I've noticed the analogous trend in Chinese (hardly anyone was named "Zhang" /ZaN/ back in the day, right?), although I guess Gen. Tso seems immune so far.] I'm not sure I've ever myself seen a spelling with "j" on a menu, or heard a pronunciation with an obviously voiced initial consonant, but I might not have noticed. I think the most frequent spelling in my limited experience is "chapchae", which would be a simplified McCune-Reischauer spelling I guess. Note however that my experience with chapchae is heavily weighted toward the Midwest (esp. Chicago area), 1971-1989. Now that I've thought of it, it's high time to go out for some Pittsburgh japchae/chapch'ae/whatever; I'll see what the menu says. Any analogous tendency for "kimchi"/"kimchee" to acquire a voiced initial ("gimchi") so far? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Wed Jan 11 11:03:14 2012 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:03:14 +0000 Subject: Fisher revival Message-ID: In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to use the word legitimately. Lots of examples can be found by Googling the term on the University of Aberdeen site specifically (if you Google without the site restriction, the top results are all clearly folkloric or to do with a band of that name, and don't seem to be modern usages of the term to describe people's present-day lives). I came to the U. Aberdeen site because I knew that Robert McColl Millar there had led a project on lexical attrition in fishing communities, and I thought it actually had the word _fisherfolk_ in the title, but the word isn't actually mentioned in Dr McColl Millar's website, though the project is. Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 11 13:26:59 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:26:59 +0000 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201101526.q0A66N9R021222@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I like the notion that the KJV is in the vanguard of gender-neutral terminology! ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Ronald Butters [ronbutters at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:26 AM Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." > > But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: > > http://ow.ly/8nN07 > http://ow.ly/8nN0L > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 13:56:01 2012 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:56:01 +0800 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) Message-ID: This snowclone seems to be gaining a lot of popularity, having apparently starting with some viral videos "Shit girls say..." on YouTube. Over 400 million raw ghits. The closest hit currently on COCA is "things men say to women". -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 11 14:20:21 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:20:21 -0800 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201111103.q0B61FFY025748@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2012, at 3:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to use the word legitimately. > > Lots of examples can be found by Googling the term on the University of Aberdeen site specifically... you can also google on {"Nancy Dorian" fisherfolk} to find examples of the word's use in her work on the East Sunderland community. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 11 14:41:47 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 06:41:47 -0800 Subject: "an emoticon of privacy" In-Reply-To: <201201092233.q09KI0im011842@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On MSNBC, Meghan McCain said the Obamas deserve "an emoticon of privacy": > > http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/meghan-mccain-give-obamas-emoticon-of-privacy.html > > A simple malaprop for "modicum," or more of an eggcorn? (She said it > twice, so it wasn't just a slip of the tongue.) it could be just a slip of the tongue, specifically an inadvertent word retrieval error (of the Fay/Cutler variety). the fact is that these errors (both of the F/C phonological type and of the semantics-based type) sometimes persist: once you've said "spread like wildflower" (instead of "wildfire") you are moderately likely to say it again not long after (and similarly for "teaching assistant" instead of "research assistant") [real-life examples]. once you've pulled up the wrong word, it's in your memory for a while, and you have a fair chance of using it again. > An emoticon is a small > squiggly thing, so I can vaguely see a semantic basis for it. if you're lucky, you can ask speakers if they said what they intended to, but in this case the publicity that has attended the error has surely clouded McCain's ability to reflect on her intentions. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 15:39:21 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:39:21 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't it originally sponsored by the "Shit My Father Says" blog (and later TV sitcom spinoff)? LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > This snowclone seems to be gaining a lot of popularity, having apparently > starting with some viral videos "Shit girls say..." on YouTube. Over 400 > million raw ghits. The closest hit currently on COCA is "things men say to > women". > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 11 15:51:52 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:51:52 -0600 Subject: Fisher revival (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201111327.q0B62XFT014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word > "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in > the English-speaking world. > As opposed to "humen" . . . Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 11 16:47:37 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:47:37 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <42054E10C02CD44D81EF510077A30A076FA03054A8@MAPI.ad.kent.ac .uk> Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 06:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be >used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do >with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group >connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved >with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to >use the word legitimately. My feeling (I'm in the Boston area) is that I've heard "fisher" used by U.S. in-groups (that is, by or about fishermen and fisherwomen) too, when it wasn't common years ago. But I have no recorded evidence. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 11 16:52:45 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:52:45 -0500 Subject: "Chair" and [was:] Fisher revival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 08:26 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: >I like the notion that the KJV is in the vanguard of gender-neutral >terminology! Makes me wonder if "chair" = "person presiding at a meeting or for a committee" is in the KJV. That usage also goes way back (OED 9.b., 1659). It too has been a gender-neutral revival. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 17:25:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:25:13 -0500 Subject: Indian eggcorn? Message-ID: The author of the piece is from India or from Bangladesh (I presume this is not the British philosopher of the same name--he is a consultant in Delhi, but often writes on Bangladeshi issues and on China). It's not really an eggcorn so much as the wrong word choice. http://goo.gl/xwYT2 > Diplomatic impunity enjoins the host country to allow the diplomat to > perform his duties without hindrance. I am sure, he meant "diplomatic immunity". He certainly has no problem using "impunity" in the right context. > Arrogance and acting with impunity appears to have become the hallmark > of the Chinese authorities. There are only a couple of other minor quirks that make it look like Indian English, but mostly it's indistinguishable from other materials on international relations. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 17:42:58 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: Coffeehouse?! In-Reply-To: <4F0D129C.3090204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > You are right, of course, except that the groups I played with always > expanded on the original definition, but probably because both kinds of > talk came as a package (we often played with five players, rotating > someone in--particularly when teaching a novice). Of course, the other > default was "table-talk", although that was usually a "conversation" > between partners--not with opponents. I'm sure there were other > Yiddishism flying across the table, but I don't recall them. > > VS-) > In my poker circles, "table-talk" is between "kibitz" and "coffeehouse" in that (like coffeehousing and unlike kibitzing) table-talking may and usually does involve those playing a hand but (unlike coffeehousing) table-talking typically involves true information (or reasoned conclusions) about other players' hands, rather than false information about one's own. The objection ("No table-talk!") is not on the basis of the immorality of lying or dissembling but on the basis that one player might hurt another's chances by imparting information not obvious to one of the table-talkees, such that s/he might tailor behavior (bet, fold, call, raise) accordingly. If A points out (qua table talk) that B is "beat on the board" by C, i.e. that regardless of what B has in the hold, C will have a better hand based on C's up cards, and if B believes A, B will fold, and C will get very upset. LH > On 1/10/2012 11:09 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> I checked my Mac dictionary, and it says that kibitzing refers to someone who is not playing giving advice. That's what I recall from my childhood, too. >> Right, a kibitzer (in chess too) is looking over your shoulder, not telling you how he's going to move or bet or what he has in his hand. I suppose you can coffeehouse in chess as well, if you're playing; seems like something Bobby Fischer would have done. >> >> LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:23:11 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:23:11 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201111356.q0B62XHB014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > This snowclone I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:34:41 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:34:41 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111823.q0BIM99x013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV and smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones, dumb-TV, dumb-glasses. Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones, snail-TV, snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed myself to work this morning....? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 18:45:07 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 13:45:07 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111834.q0BIM9EK006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't be a smartass. VS-) On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV a= > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart= > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C snail= > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed my= > self to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 11 19:10:29 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:10:29 -0800 Subject: Japchae In-Reply-To: <201201110728.q0B61F7Y025748@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2012, at 11:27 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > On 1/11/2012 1:27 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> I have a vague impression that there is an increase in voiced English consonants, which I attribute to the adoption of the Revised Romanization of Korean in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_romanization), but I have no real evidence of such a change. >> > > I think the new Romanization may very well change the prevalence of > [spelling] pronunciations in the US. [I've noticed the analogous trend > in Chinese (hardly anyone was named "Zhang" /ZaN/ back in the day, > right?), although I guess Gen. Tso seems immune so far.] > > I'm not sure I've ever myself seen a spelling with "j" on a menu, or > heard a pronunciation with an obviously voiced initial consonant, but I > might not have noticed. > > I think the most frequent spelling in my limited experience is > "chapchae", which would be a simplified McCune-Reischauer spelling I guess. > > Note however that my experience with chapchae is heavily weighted toward > the Midwest (esp. Chicago area), 1971-1989. Now that I've thought of it, > it's high time to go out for some Pittsburgh japchae/chapch'ae/whatever; > I'll see what the menu says. > > Any analogous tendency for "kimchi"/"kimchee" to acquire a voiced > initial ("gimchi") so far? > My guess is that kimchi is probably safely set in English. Using "gimchi" would just confuse people with no benefit to the writer. Nevertheless, Wikipedia claims it is used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi). I became aware of the RR system when I started seeing Busan instead of Pusan. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Wed Jan 11 19:19:54 2012 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:19:54 -0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111845.q0BIM9Db013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Antonym: dumb blond? But Bloated Craniums can be both highbrows and bubble heads ... Thick as shit ... sharp as mustard Thick as two planks ... the sharpest bulb in the drawer So: How many linguists does it take to parse a lightbulb? Robin -----Original Message----- From: Victor Steinbok Don't be a smartass. VS-) On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV > a= > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so > smart= > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. > = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C > snail= > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed > my= > self to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 19:44:21 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201111647.q0B62Xf1014200@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My favorite "fishers" of recent times were the "flirty fishers" of the Children of God cult of the '70s: In 1976, Berg encouraged the women members of the group to engage in "flirty fishing". The term was based on Jesus' injunction "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19). Women members were urged to go into bars and befriend men. They were expected to seduce potential male converts if necessary to in order to encourage them towards a religious conversion and membership in the organization. The media had a feeding frenzy with this innovative form of evangelism, portraying the COG women as "Hookers for Jesus." In his 1979 annual report, Berg stated that his "FFers" (Flirty Fishers) had "witnessed to over a quarter of a million souls, loved over 25,000 of them and won about 19,000 to the Lord." http://www.eaec.org/cults/cog.htm Eric On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/11/2012 06:03 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >>In Scottish fishing communities, anyway, _fisherfolk_ seems to be >>used as a gender-neutral word for 'people who fish (or are to do >>with the fishing community)'. It does seem as if it has an in-group >>connotation, though: you seem to have to be in some way involved >>with these communities, or at least researching them, in order to >>use the word legitimately. > > My feeling (I'm in the Boston area) is that I've heard "fisher" used > by U.S. in-groups (that is, by or about fishermen and fisherwomen) > too, when it wasn't common years ago. But I have no recorded evidence. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 19:54:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:54:44 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111834.q0BIM9EK006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Tom Zurinskas > Subject: ? ? ? prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last ? year. ? Now smart-TV and smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. ? But since these are so smart > ? does it make the opposite dumb: ? dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. ? = > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. ? snail-phones snail-TV=2C snail-glasses. ? Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > =20 > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". ? As a verb? ? I roboed myself to work this morning....? > =20 > Tom Zurinskas Conn 20 yrs Tenn 3 NJ 33 now Fl 9.=20 > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Hm. How about _I_? As in, I i'd that chick with the big butt. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:10:23 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:10:23 -0500 Subject: Indian eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <4F0DC5F9.6050502@gmail.com> Message-ID: I love "diplomatic impunity", especially as applied to all those cavalier violators of double- (et al.) parking regulations in NYC who sport diplomats' license plates. LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > The author of the piece is from India or from Bangladesh (I presume this > is not the British philosopher of the same name--he is a consultant in > Delhi, but often writes on Bangladeshi issues and on China). It's not > really an eggcorn so much as the wrong word choice. > > http://goo.gl/xwYT2 >> Diplomatic impunity enjoins the host country to allow the diplomat to >> perform his duties without hindrance. > > I am sure, he meant "diplomatic immunity". He certainly has no problem > using "impunity" in the right context. > >> Arrogance and acting with impunity appears to have become the hallmark >> of the Chinese authorities. > > There are only a couple of other minor quirks that make it look like > Indian English, but mostly it's indistinguishable from other materials > on international relations. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 11 21:13:03 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival In-Reply-To: <201201101526.q0A66NJe011099@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I should have noted that the semantic shift on the Bruce Peninsula was probably induced by the reintroduction of fishers by the Ministry of Natural Resources about ten years ago. The 10,000 year round residents of the Bruce, not including First Nations communities, are, of course, all native speakers of Early Modern English and are strongly influenced by the eight instances of "fisher" in the KJV. Herb On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ronald Butters > Subject: Re: Fisher revival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the word "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate humen in the English-speaking world. > > On Jan 10, 2012, at 12:03 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> About the word "fisher," the OED says: "One who is employed in catching fish. Now arch.; superseded in ordinary use by fisherman." >> >> But there are women who fish, making it difficult to talk about people who fish. I personally use the word "fisher" when I need to. Two examples of "fisher" can be found at: >> >> http://ow.ly/8nN07 >> http://ow.ly/8nN0L >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:13:18 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:13:18 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". LH On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander > wrote: >> This snowclone > > I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case > that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 11 21:49:02 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:49:02 -0500 Subject: free for the asking Message-ID: If any of you collect bogus etymologies of expressions like "piss poor" (and about a dozen others), speak up and I'll pass on a missive sent to another site. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 11 22:53:42 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:53:42 +0000 Subject: "Deduplicate," "Dedupe," and "Deduplication" Message-ID: I notice that the verbs "deduplicate" and "dedupe," which I use often in my work, are not in OED nor Merriam-Webster. Same with "deduplication" in the sense 'elimination of redundancy.' Google has, respectively, 67,000, 612,000, and 2,150,000 hits for the three words. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 02:53:16 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" Message-ID: Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't sleep on Jermichael Finley". I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. DanG Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 05:53:00 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:53:00 -0500 Subject: Dead men walking Message-ID: This is the primary season and, of course, there are places to discuss that. But I simply could not let this quote go by. http://goo.gl/QGzPB > "If you have voted after you are dead, there is a good, strong > possibility that you did something illegal," he said to reporters > after speaking to the panel. The line came from Retired Army Colonel Kevin Schwedo who is South Carolina's Director of the Department of Motor Vehicles. IMO it's already a QOTY candidate and we're only in the second week of January. I don't want to bore anyone to death with political details, but the reporter's explanation of the mini-scandal deserves a mention: > What's unclear from the analysis released Wednesday to a House > Judiciary Committee panel from the state Department of Motor Vehicles > is whether voter fraud was committed by people assuming the identities > of the deceased or if poor record keeping has resulted in South > Carolina residents being classified as deceased. I don't see much point piling on, as South Carolina has been in the headlines quite often in the last four years--and mostly not for something its residents had done right. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 12 06:34:13 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:34:13 -0800 Subject: Dead men walking In-Reply-To: <201201120553.q0C5butM025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nothing to do with these quotes, but with respect to the title, my opponent once said to me "dead stones walking" in response to a move I made in a go game. That was in California, no later than 2001. (He was several levels above me and I had a total of zero stones still alive.) I see the quote used in only one online post from a game in 2007: http://www.umich.edu/~goclub/Lectures/lecture7.sgf. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 11, 2012, at 9:53 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > This is the primary season and, of course, there are places to discuss > that. But I simply could not let this quote go by. > > http://goo.gl/QGzPB >> "If you have voted after you are dead, there is a good, strong >> possibility that you did something illegal," he said to reporters >> after speaking to the panel. > > The line came from Retired Army Colonel Kevin Schwedo who is South > Carolina's Director of the Department of Motor Vehicles. IMO it's > already a QOTY candidate and we're only in the second week of January. > > I don't want to bore anyone to death with political details, but the > reporter's explanation of the mini-scandal deserves a mention: > >> What's unclear from the analysis released Wednesday to a House >> Judiciary Committee panel from the state Department of Motor Vehicles >> is whether voter fraud was committed by people assuming the identities >> of the deceased or if poor record keeping has resulted in South >> Carolina residents being classified as deceased. > > I don't see much point piling on, as South Carolina has been in the > headlines quite often in the last four years--and mostly not for > something its residents had done right. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 08:43:14 2012 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:43:14 +0800 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201112113.q0BIM9rq002752@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 5:13 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I > love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". > These are specifically plural (representing a group of people), and have the "to Y" part (representing another kind of people). There is of course another snowclone "shit X say", and the X is again generally plural, but it seems to me that the longer a snowclone is, the more significant it is. > On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case > > that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 16:15:09 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:15:09 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201111845.q0BIM9Db013915@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Don't be a smartass. > > VS-) Don't be a dumbass (see below) And then there's American smart-elevators in Scotland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't be a smartass. > > VS-) > > On 1/11/2012 1:34 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > I saw "smartphone" as a generic term first time last year. Now smart-TV a= > > nd smart -glasses (eyeglasses) are happening. But since these are so smart= > > does it make the opposite dumb: dumbphones=2C dumb-TV=2C dumb-glasses. = > > Maybe "snail" is appropieate such as for snail-mail. snail-phones=2C snail= > > -TV=2C snail-glasses. Or are we outsmarting ourselves. > > =20 > > Another POTY which is used all the time is "robo". As a verb? I roboed my= > > self to work this morning....? > > =20 > > Tom Zurinskas > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 12 16:17:42 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:17:42 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" In-Reply-To: <-3214849093855214334@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: At 1/11/2012 09:53 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint >for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't >sleep on Jermichael Finley". > >I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to >mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. "Don't fall asleep about" (the whereabouts of Finley)? He's a tight end. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 12 16:58:34 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:58:34 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? Message-ID: I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 12 17:00:19 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:00:19 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2012, at 3:43 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 5:13 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I >> love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". >> > > These are specifically plural (representing a group of people), and have > the "to Y" part (representing another kind of people). There is of course > another snowclone "shit X say", and the X is again generally plural, ? ...as in http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/10/sht-republican-candidates-say (Not that I'm taking sides, of course, just putting it up as a fresh instance of the snowclone.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 12 17:35:57 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 11:35:57 -0600 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0C5buW6025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Is it a jackelope? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Joel S. Berson > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 12 18:11:09 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:11:09 -0600 Subject: barber shopping (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE >From a discussion about the renovation of the Magic Castle in Hollywood (It was involved in a fire last Halloween, and is being renovated/repaired). "I love learning little trivia and last night I learned about the term "barber shopping". It's the terms for mirrors that have been placed at opposite sides of a room that allow for endless reflections. You won't notice at first but the mirrors in the Tiffany Room do just that!" Construction or Interior Decorator slang? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 18:37:37 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" Message-ID: So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to metaphorical. http://goo.gl/eL45K > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina.* Remember > that episode of Mad Men where the pro-Nixon advertising exec airs a > bunch commercials for Secor Laxatives in order to box out Kennedy in > key television markets? OK, this isn?t really like that, but Romney?s > backers over at Restore Our Future have the biggest presence on South > Carolina TV right now. Meanwhile, Newt Gingrich?s PAC has yet to > follow through on its promise to buy $3.4 million of airtime. Team > Romney can probably spend enough money in the next ten days to make > sure that every anti-Mitt ad is bracketed by pro-Romney stuff. Pete > Campbell would approve. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 12 18:48:11 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:48:11 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121837.q0C5cmSh013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to > metaphorical. > > http://goo.gl/eL45K > > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 18:58:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 13:58:23 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0CFuJ9K009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Personal view: If it's an image, it's a forgery or a fake--the image, not that animal, that is. Otherwise, I would just describe the animal as fictitious or fabricated. Perhaps falsified, but, having dealt with philosophy of science, this may be a loaded term. Why would it have to be a noun? Just add an adjective to "animal" or the supposed name of the critter. With Chinese fakes, where one animal is being sold as another, more expensive animal, we've already had this discussion here. I don't recall a definitive resolution coming out of that. Fake and faux X seem to be particularly apt for describing something that is being sold as X. Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where "fabrication" would be in order. The "scientific" approach would be to prefix "pseudo-"--e.g., something that poses as a shrimp but is not a shrimp would be a pseudo-shrimp. But this point may be lost on the less predisposed audience. VS-) On 1/12/2012 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 19:30:26 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:30:26 -0500 Subject: "Don't sleep on" In-Reply-To: <201201121617.q0C5buRa025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I heard the usage "Don't sleep on the 49ers" from Joe Benigno on WFAN radio in NYC this morning. DanG On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Don't sleep on" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/11/2012 09:53 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >Steve Serby in today's NYPost writes about Romeo Crennel's blueprint > >for the NY Giants to defeat the Green Bay Packers. Item IV is "don't > >sleep on Jermichael Finley". > > > >I have this phrasing a lot recently on sports programs. I take it to > >mean "don't deal with lightly" or something similar. > > "Don't fall asleep about" (the whereabouts of Finley)? He's a tight end. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jan 12 19:36:07 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 14:36:07 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorenson may be conflating "firewall" with "firebreak." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ben Zimmer Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: new use for "firewall" On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to > metaphorical. > > http://goo.gl/eL45K > > *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Jan 12 22:43:21 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:43:21 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201121700.q0CH042T003646@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: A chimera? GAT On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not > genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. > > "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does > "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible > too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 23:18:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:18:26 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: With all due respect to the earlier discovery, this one appears to be different. The Rove/Liasson/Glenn usage was the entire state as a firewall blocking another candidate's path to nomination. In this case, they are building a firewall to prevent another candidate from winning the state. The former likely had been derived from the physical firewall, but the new one appears to have roots in the electronic world. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 12 23:31:27 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:31:27 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was just watching Man vs. Food and Adam Richman mentioned "foodwall blocking my way". The foodwall won. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Jan 12 23:51:15 2012 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:51:15 -0600 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One would think there would be a well know carny word for that. On 1/12/2012 4:43 PM, George Thompson wrote: > A chimera? > > GAT > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> I want to refer to an animal being exhibited that is a hoax -- not >> genuine, but unreal, constructed in some way. >> >> "Counterfeit" has the useful association with "made", as does >> "fabricated". Imitation, fake, mock, concocted seem possible >> too. What words are most commonly used to describe such a construction? >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Her brain rattled around in her skull like a BB in a boxcar." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 13 00:10:21 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:10:21 -0800 Subject: Chinese zodiac Message-ID: The OED has a draft addition under "zodiac" to include the Chinese zodiac, with citations going back to 1784. Despite entries on Western zodiac signs (such as capricorn), however, none of the animals of the Chinese zodiac get their full due. Also, expressions such as "hour of the horse" and "year of the horse" are found in literature and deserve full treatment. I also wonder about "Originally in China and East Asia" in the definition of zodiac. If I did not know better, I would read that to mean that until the modern age (perhaps the last century or two), the Chinese zodiac was restricted to China, East Asia and any other pockets of immigrants from those areas. But that ignores the traditional presence of the Chinese zodiac in Southeast Asia, Kazakhstan and Hungary, which go back hundreds of years (with modifications). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 01:32:57 2012 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:32:57 -0500 Subject: Psychedelic? Message-ID: On NPR this morning, there was a report about Connie Rice, who wrote a book about the LAPD (which she also brought lawsuits against). The LAPD was hosting the book-signing event--and the reporter described this as "psychedelic." I think surreal was meant (since, after all, Ms. Rice had begun her career suing the LAPD and was being feted by them today). Barbara Barbara Need Etna, NY ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Fri Jan 13 03:24:44 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:24:44 -0500 Subject: con Message-ID: I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 03:25:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:25:31 -0500 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201112113.q0BIM95M006410@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Larry, but I'm afraid that it's still over my head. "I love me some some Miss Jankins." I get this as a kind of wordplay: "I love Miss Jankins" is crossed with "I love me some barbecue" yielding "I love me some Miss Jankins" merely for effect. IMO, "mother of all [whatever]" is semantically non-distinct from "[whatever]'s mama" OTOH, is "Shit * say to *" exemplified by "Shit (that) doods say to chicks" ? Whether the answer be yea or nay, I still need Snowclones for Dummies. So, after a quick read in the electronic equivalent thereof, the relevant article in W:pedia - should have thought of doing that to begin with - I understand that _shit * say to *_ is, indeed, a snowclone. Furthermore, _W:pedia_ is a kind of snowclone. A Swedish friend customarily abbreviated my name as _W:son_' When I asked about this, I was told that, in Sweden, names ending in _son_ or _dotter_ are - or were, fifty years ago - routinely abbreviated in this fashion, since everybody understands that A:son, J:son, L:son, et sim. represent "Arneson, Johannson, "Larsson," et sim. Hence, _W:pedia_, under my assumption that anyone will immediately grasp that this is "Wikipedia" and nothing else, even without knowledge of the Swedish model. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Shit * say to * (snowclone) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The snowclone would presumably be "Shit X say(s)", as in the earlier "I love me some X" or "mother of all Xs". > > LH > > On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Randy Alexander >> wrote: >>> This snowclone >> >> I'm confused. In what sense is this a snowclone? It could be the case >> that I simply don't understand the concept of _snowclone_. >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 04:19:44 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:19:44 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? Message-ID: I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 04:26:20 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:26:20 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <4F0F2D4F.3060408@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/12/2012 01:58 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where >"fabrication" would be in order. I'm quite sure there were many more fabricated live animals displayed in stationary or traveling zoos and sideshows in the 17th through 19th, if not also 20th, centuries, than the two above. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 04:56:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:56:11 -0500 Subject: Imitation, counterfeit, or what? In-Reply-To: <201201130426.q0CJALAn013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: >>Jakelope and its ilk (bunnyip) seem to be the only case where >>"fabrication" would be in order. Joel S. Berson wrote: > I'm quite sure there were many more fabricated live animals displayed > in stationary or traveling zoos and sideshows in the 17th through > 19th, if not also 20th, centuries, than the two above. A couple years ago I posted about a "unicorn" exhibited by Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus in the 1980s. Here is a link to a Chicago Tribune article discussing the topic: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-10-18/entertainment/8503110287_1_lancelot-ringling-brothers-animal The existence of a one-horned creature was reported back in 1936 in the Time magazine article below. It supposedly was created (fabricated, mutilated, manipulated, synthesized) by transplanting the horn buds of an animal so that they were adjacent. The resulting animal grew a single fused horn. The following link only shows part of the article to non-subscribers: Citation: Science: Unicorn, Time, May. 04, 1936. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,882648,00.html Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Jan 13 04:56:35 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:56:35 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201130419.q0D4Ji0d020898@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but _vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first quote from 1978. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 13:59:23 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 08:59:23 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <20120113045635.GB10317@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch > list for WOTY. > >Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but >_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first >quote from 1978. While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 13 15:29:20 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:29:20 -0500 Subject: cattery Message-ID: The OED has the following definition for "cattery": An establishment of cats. 1791 G. Huddesford *Monody Death Dick* in *Salmagundi * 133 Enshrin'd celestial Cateries among, the sable Matron. 1827 R. Southey *Select. Lett. * (1856) IV. 171 All the royal Cattery of Cats' Eden. *a*1843 R. Southey *Doctor * (1847) VII. 587 An evil fortune attended all our attempts at re-establishing a Cattery. No doubt this entry was composed when Queen Victoria was hobbling about the Palace with a walker, and there's been no pressing need to revise it since. Still, the quotations are pretty baffling -- Zen, we would have said, 50 years ago. Anyway, a current meaning of the word is an establishment where kittens are bred for sale. Perhaps this is what Southey had in mind? There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic representative of the breed. I've been corresponding with catteries that sell "Siberian Forest Cats". If any of you have experience with this breed, I would like to know of it. Off-list, of course. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 16:06:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:06:21 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201131359.q0D5nWZc013664@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some quarters as vulture capitalists. [End excerpt] Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. [End excerpt] Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? [End excerpt] Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be kept out of the country [End excerpt] Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) [Begin excerpt] All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if necessary will be sentenced to death." [End excerpt] Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association for Asian Studies (JSTOR) http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 [Begin excerpt] In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong Rojong. [End excerpt] Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. Best Garson On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the > new year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >>On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch >> list for WOTY. >> >>Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but >>_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first >>quote from 1978. > > While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in > diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 13 16:28:03 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:28:03 -0600 Subject: con (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201130324.q0CKZLAA025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Con as in convict or con as in confidence game? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Dan Nussbaum > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:25 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: con > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Nussbaum > Subject: con > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusu= > al is this? > > > Dan Nussbaum=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 17:54:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:54:23 -0500 Subject: edification == education? Message-ID: Edification 2.b. in the OED runs out in 1875--which is, in fact, the latest citation in that entire article. The 2.b. definition is a bit murky: > 2. b. Mental or moral improvement, intellectual profit; instruction. > (Now often /ironical/.) But it certainly is less murky in this passage: http://goo.gl/Vdm77 > The spokesman for the Committee, Robert Dillon, says that this contest > wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful of the firefighters who > are pretty much putting their lives on the line every time they go up > in one of those rickety planes or face a wildfire on the line. It's > meant instead for the edification of eastern lawmakers who aren't as > experienced in wildfire. "It's not an official way to educate them," > Dillon said. "It's a fun, backroom way to do it." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 13 18:06:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:06:36 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms Message-ID: As TPM has been documenting, the political phrase of the month seems to be "Quiet rooms"-- http://goo.gl/CNUZ6 > Too bad for Mitt Romney. Turns out income inequality--that thing he > claims has no place in our political debate, or anywhere outside of > "quiet rooms"--will be a central theme of President Obama's > re-election message. http://goo.gl/jDorp > [Matt Lauer]: Are there no fair questions about the distribution of > wealth without it being seen as envy, though? > ROMNEY: [You know,] I think it's fine to talk about those things in > quiet rooms and discussions about tax policy and the like. But the > president has made it part of his campaign rally. TPM is not the only one to mock Romney for "quiet rooms". http://goo.gl/sSGiM Shhhh! Romney wants economy talk in 'quiet rooms' > We're going to talk about the widening income gap between rich and > poor, tax policy and the seemliness of predatory investing, and GOP > presidential front-runner Mitt Romney wants us to do so only "in quiet > rooms." http://goo.gl/G27ox Oh, yes he did! Romney requests conversations about income inequality be conducted in 'quiet rooms' [The one above comes with the video] http://goo.gl/zUhN7 'Quiet Rooms' and Republican Class War > This is not a debate they feel they can win even among Republican > voters, a majority of whom actually favor higher taxes on the rich. > Romney's assertion yesterday that economic inequality should not be > discussed, or should only be mentioned in "quiet rooms," is a > too-frank expression of the GOP elite?s actual belief that the issue > must be kept out of political debate. > ... >> MR. FLEISCHER: I think if someone were to make a rather economic, >> esoteric, scholarly argument like you just did, that wouldn't be >> class warfare. > "Esoteric, scholarly" captures the same idea Romney is attempting to > invoke with "quiet rooms." I thought the whole point of "quiet rooms" is /not/ to have discussions there. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 13 18:36:11 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:36:11 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <4F1072AC.6050804@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/13/2012 01:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >I thought the whole point of "quiet rooms" is /not/ to have discussions >there. Not how I remember the purpose of "The Cone of Silence". (My authority: viewing, and Wikipedia.) I think the whole point is to have discussions only the ins (perhaps the 1%?) can hear -- in the Romney instance, to keep them away from the voters. I hadn't noticed this phrase before, but rather revealing about him, I think. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kenhirsch at FTML.NET Fri Jan 13 23:25:35 2012 From: kenhirsch at FTML.NET (Ken Hirsch) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:25:35 -0500 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" Message-ID: I heard this on the radio: "The next step is sculpting the river bank back to its original shape. They call it 're-meandering the creek'." It seems to be an up-and-coming word, with the -ing form the most common. Some links: - Remeandering straightened rivers - Remeander water courses - genslyngning af Stavis ? - Google web search for meandering - Google book search for remeandering I note that the oldest uses of "remeandering" on GBS are about surveying a river, not changing its course. The OED has a related usage under "meandered". A few of the uses are passive ones, something that just happens to a river. Most of the new uses are transitive, something that is actively done to a river. Searching on "remeanding" also led me to "daylighting" - Stream Corridor Improvements ? Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly Culverts - Creek Daylighting FAQ (pdf) "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" Ken Hirsch ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Jan 13 23:59:04 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:59:04 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. GAT On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture > capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The > phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but > earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. > > Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce > Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. > (ProQuest) > [Begin excerpt] > No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some > quarters as vulture capitalists. > [End excerpt] > > Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. > > Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, > Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) > [Begin excerpt] > The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture > capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one > repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas > Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive > Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) > http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& > [Begin excerpt] > For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred > proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all > individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an > illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New > York. (ProQuest) > [Begin excerpt] > But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you > with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the > vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that > Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be > kept out of the country > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., > New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) > [Begin excerpt] > All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of > "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the > expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be > arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if > necessary will be sentenced to death." > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some > Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two > Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in > Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living > Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; > Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese > Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, > Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association > for Asian Studies (JSTOR) > http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 > [Begin excerpt] > In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, > President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight > Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently > characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced > by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong > Rojong. > [End excerpt] > > Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. > Best Garson > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start > of the > > new year? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 1/12/2012 11:56 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >>On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch > >> list for WOTY. > >> > >>Not that this inherently disqualifies something from WotY status, but > >>_vulture capitalist_ has been in OED since 2006, and we have a first > >>quote from 1978. > > > > While I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't thought to look, by "in > > diapers" I only meant that it was emerging like the infant "2012." > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 14 01:19:15 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 17:19:15 -0800 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" In-Reply-To: <201201140056.q0E0u0AC009204@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I learned this use of "daylight" from a friend of mine who uses it as a verb. I reported that use as early as 1916 last month: (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1112D&L=ADS-L&P=R2746&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) It seems to be common these days given the movement in water feature restoration. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 13, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Ken Hirsch wrote: > Searching on "remeanding" also led me to "daylighting" > > > - Stream Corridor Improvements =96 Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, > Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly > Culverts es-for-protecting-water-quality-2013-natural-lawns-rain-gardens-downspout-d= > isconnection> > - Creek Daylighting > FAQ _FAQ_and_Case_Studies.pdf> > (pdf) > "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, > streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, > covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" > > Ken Hirsch ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:11:56 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:11:56 -0500 Subject: News: Research Archive JStor Moves Toward Open Access Message-ID: The following article excerpt may particularly interest independent researchers without academic affiliations. Technology Review Research Archive JStor Moves Toward Open Access A nonprofit organization that holds millions of pieces of academic work will soon let the public see it for free. Friday, January 13, 2012 By Brian Bergstein http://www.technologyreview.com/web/39448/?p1=A2 An organization that maintains a huge database of academic research plans to soon let the public view some of the trove of information for free - a big boost for the idea of "open access" to the world's knowledge. As part of its new program, which is expected to enter beta mode in the coming weeks, the JStor service will let anyone view articles from 70 journals after registering with the website. The reader then can view up to three documents at a time in a "frame" on the site. There are some limitations. For one thing, the free access won't let readers download or print the articles; those privileges will still be reserved for people who buy the articles or are affiliated with schools and libraries that pay for JStor subscriptions. Second, this beta program includes just a small portion of the 1,400 academic journals in JStor's online database. However, if it works out, JStor says, it could expand the program to most or nearly all of the database. (Follow the link above to read more.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:12:53 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 02:12:53 +0000 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201130419.q0CKZLBg025951@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > I say put "vulture capitalist" (AKA Mitt Romney) on the watch list for WOTY. Indeed - And add "Super Pacs" to that list. What hath the Republican majority appointed Stupreme Court wrought? Do they think political ads are not coordinated with candidates or parties? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee Super PACs The 2010 election marked the rise of a new political committee, dubbed "super PACs," and officially known as "independent-expenditure only committees," which can raise unlimited sums from corporations, unions and other groups, as well as individuals.[5] The super PACs were made possible by two judicial decisions. The first was the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission which held that government may not prohibit unions and corporations from making independent expenditures about politics. Soon after, in Speechnow.org v. FEC, the Federal Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit held that contributions to groups that only make independent expenditures could not be limited.[6] Super PACs are not allowed to coordinate directly with candidates or political parties. They are required to disclose their donors, just like traditional PACs.[7] However many exploit a technicality in the filing requirements in order to postpone disclosure until well af! ter the elections they participate in.[8] Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:19:44 -0500 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new > year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 02:35:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 21:35:18 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140056.q0E0u0Hn029041@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] VS-) On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: > I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier > examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. > > GAT > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > >> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture >> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The >> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but >> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. >> >> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce >> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. >> (ProQuest) >> [Begin excerpt] >> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some >> quarters as vulture capitalists. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. >> >> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, >> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) >> [Begin excerpt] >> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture >> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one >> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas >> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive >> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) >> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& >> [Begin excerpt] >> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred >> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all >> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an >> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New >> York. (ProQuest) >> [Begin excerpt] >> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you >> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the >> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that >> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be >> kept out of the country >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., >> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) >> [Begin excerpt] >> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of >> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the >> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be >> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if >> necessary will be sentenced to death." >> [End excerpt] >> >> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some >> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two >> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in >> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living >> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; >> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese >> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, >> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association >> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) >> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 >> [Begin excerpt] >> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, >> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight >> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently >> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced >> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong >> Rojong. >> [End excerpt] >> >> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. >> Best Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 03:21:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:21:29 -0500 Subject: Tim TeBowie Message-ID: The portmanteau/blend you've been waiting for... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxMX-lR7Hs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Sat Jan 14 03:39:50 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 03:39:50 +0000 Subject: this has been your time to shine Message-ID:

I could barely afford groceries anymore there is nothing else like this out there despite the circumstances I never lost hope.
http://77.61.243.195/newsjournal/89StephenCooper/ now im on top of my game
see what I mean for yourself!
see you later

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 04:46:35 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:46:35 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140235.q0E0u0Vf001536@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to George, Victor, and other participants on this thread for comments. I think the 1971 date for "venture capitalist" can be pushed back. Here is a citation in 1946 and one in 1953. Cite: 1946 July 27, Collier's Weekly, The Truth About Henry Kaiser by Lester Velie, Start Page 11, Quote Page 12, Column 3, The Crowell-Collier Publishing Company. (Unz) [Begin excerpt] To friendly officials in Washington, Mr. Kaiser is a great natural resource during peace as he was during war - the sort of venture capitalist our economy needs to make it grow. To critics, he is the pampered darling of the New Deal, the greatest individual beneficiary of government largesse in history. [End excerpt] Cite: 1953 June 27, The Saturday Review, Human Want Is Obsolete by Gerard Piel, Start Page 9, Quote Page 10, Column 2, Saturday Review Associates Inc., New York. (Unz) [Begin excerpt] What science needs is brave money-with no strings attached. We are not being brave enough when we find it necessary to invoke the prospect of practical results in order to justify support of basic science. But if results are all that is wanted, it takes a reckless venture capitalist to back basic research. [End excerpt] The 1959 Time magazine cite given earlier quotes Sukarno using the phrase "vulture capitalists". This was after "venture capitalist" entered circulation. However, the magazine article does not indicate whether Sukarno was speaking English when he used the term. If he was not speaking English then the wordplay of "venture" and "vulture" may not be relevant. Knowledge of the untranslated words might be helpful. The 1972 Boston Globe cite may still be the earliest one that explicitly connects "vulture capitalist" and "venture capitalist". Garson On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the > new year? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling > ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese > expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus > Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears > to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] > > VS-) > > On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the earlier >> examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. >> >> GAT >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> >>> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture >>> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The >>> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but >>> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. >>> >>> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce >>> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. >>> (ProQuest) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some >>> quarters as vulture capitalists. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. >>> >>> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, >>> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture >>> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one >>> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas >>> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive >>> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred >>> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all >>> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an >>> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New >>> York. (ProQuest) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you >>> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the >>> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that >>> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be >>> kept out of the country >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., >>> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of >>> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the >>> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be >>> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if >>> necessary will be sentenced to death." >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some >>> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two >>> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in >>> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living >>> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; >>> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese >>> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, >>> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association >>> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) >>> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, >>> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight >>> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently >>> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced >>> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong >>> Rojong. >>> [End excerpt] >>> >>> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. >>> Best Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 06:20:41 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:20:41 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201131806.q0D5nW3M013664@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > 'Quiet Rooms' Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 14:27:07 2012 From: martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM (Martin Kaminer) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 08:27:07 -0600 Subject: Shit * say to * (snowclone) In-Reply-To: <201201130326.q0CJAL93013333@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of possible interest/relevance from a related list: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kerim Friedman Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:41 PM Subject: Re: AV tools for teaching intro to ling anth (esp. films, youtubes, etc) To: LINGANTH at listserv.linguistlist.org Here are some more videos that might be useful for teaching, from Mother Jones: Roundup of our favorite "Shit [insert race, gender, sexual orientation] Say" videos http://mojo.ly/zCignw - Kerim ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 15:33:51 2012 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:33:51 -0600 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201140621.q0E5f2vx002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent in the schools than psychiatric terms. Darla 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Quiet rooms > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > 'Quiet Rooms' > > Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Jan 14 19:02:03 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 11:02:03 -0800 Subject: "re-meander", "remeandering". Also, "daylighting" Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:25:35 zone minus 0500 Ken Hirsch wrote Searching on "remeanding" [sic?] also led me to "daylighting" - Stream Corridor Improvements =96 Remeandering and Daylighting Streams, Habitat Restoration, and Fish Friendly FAQ "Creek daylighting refers to projects that uncover and restore creeks, streams, and rivers previously buried in underground pipes and culverts, covered by decks, or otherwise removed from view" "Daylighting" is a term that has been around in civil engineering for years with the meaning "to convert a tunnel into an open cut" (where "open cut" means that the roof of the tunnel has been removed so that the ground level now goes down to the base of the former tunnel). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tom Zurinskas asks: "What hath the Republican majority appointed Stupreme Court wrought? Do they think political ads are not coordinated with candidates or parties?" It's very easy NOT to coordinate with a candidate or his/her campaign. I imagine every super-PAC has lawyers making sure there is no contact between the super-PAC and the candidate. Reading in the newspaper what the candidate says and acting on it is NOT "coordinating". What I worry about is how a candidate can shut up a super-PAC that claims to be supporting him but actually is embarrassing him. I imagine we will hear accounts in court cases and FEC hearings about how the candidate's campaign manager forced the leaders of the super-PAC---at gunpoint, preferably---to sit (in a "quiet room"?) and listen to him read off a detailed schedule of the candidate's future speeches, talking points, etc, so as to knock the super-PAC out of the "non-coordinating" category. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wilson Gray's favorite DOD agency: the Wikileaks Task Force - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 14 19:26:55 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:26:55 -0500 Subject: "puff and stratagem" Message-ID: Perhaps the antecedent of "smoke and mirrors"? "Imagining I should find the extraordinary Accounts which have been so frequently set forth in the News Papers, of the Creature called a _Chimpanzie_ to be nothing but Puff and Stratagem, to draw in the Multitude ...". He went to see it himself, and was disabused of his former opinion. Between 1738 Sept. and 1739 Feb., probably Oct. or Nov. Letter from "Publicus". Cited in G. S. Rousseau, _Enlightenment Crossings: Pre- and Post-Modern Discourses, Anthropological_ (Manchester University Press, 1991; ISBM 0-7190-3072-2), p. 201. Rousseau unfortunately does not identify the specific London newspaper. Rousseau's quotation is the only Google Everything hit. The OED has "puff and promise" in 2004. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 19:42:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:42:28 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <201201141533.q0E5f2IN002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. VS-) On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: > I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with > resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, > also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent > in the schools than psychiatric terms. > Darla > > 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > > Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 14 19:47:10 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:47:10 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: <4F11DAA4.2030000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > VS-) Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are pretty noisy, depending on the trains. LH > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. >> Darla >> >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray >> >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sat Jan 14 20:18:36 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:18:36 -0800 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart Message-ID: This topic needs some background. What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. End of lecture. - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 14 20:28:48 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:28:48 -0500 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <20120114121836.D49128C7@resin03.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: Then there were those "smart bombs" so much in the news a few years back, which may have helped the metaphoricization process along. LH On Jan 14, 2012, at 3:18 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > This topic needs some background. > > What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. > > Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". > > Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). > > CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". > > Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". > > Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. > > Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) > > Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. > > End of lecture. > > - Jim Landau > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Jan 14 20:49:56 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:49:56 -0500 Subject: Quiet rooms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So "quiet" can mean either "quiet" or "talkative". (E.g., the former for a railroad car; the latter for Romney's room, or The Cone of Silence.) Youneverknow. Joel At 1/14/2012 02:47 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > > > VS-) > >Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell >phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are >pretty noisy, depending on the trains. > >LH > > > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: > >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with > >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, > >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be > more prevalent > >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. > >> Darla > >> > >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray > >> > >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a > >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd > >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." > >> > >> Youneverknow. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 14 21:15:22 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:15:22 +0000 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201142018.q0ECsPT4006505@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some terms pre-exist but suddenly come of age, like smartphone last year standing for those swipe-type phones. More "smarts" from Gizmag.com (a great site to see a wonderfully smart future) New "smart" polymer opens door for medical use of low-power near-infrared light Researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) have conducted initial testing of a new ?smart? plastic material which may bring about new uses in medicine for near-infrared light (NIR). According to early experiments, the plastic material will break down into non-toxic particles in response to lower-power NIR. This may lead to improved treatment of, for example, tumors, or improvements in the release of tracing compounds and imaging agents for improved medical diagnostics applications. Polaroid?s Android-powered, 16-megapixel Smart Camera With most people happy to make do with camera phones for their digital image snapping needs in the majority of situations and the quality of such devices improving markedly in recent years, makers of dedicated consumer-level cameras face an increasingly tough row to hoe. At CES 2012, Polaroid has announced its SC1630 Smart Camera that attempts to blur the lines between a camera phone and dedicated camera with its smartphone-like form factor and being one of the first dedicated cameras to run on Android. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This topic needs some background. > > What we now call "computer workstations" first appeared with MIT's Project MAC (the first time-sharing system) of 1960. At the time they were usually called "computer terminals". Most often the terminal was a Model 33 Teletype, now a museum piece but then so ubiquitous that it was said Moses had one at Mount Sinai. > > Note: "Teletype" is a trademark that has become genericized. Computer and communications professionals, in my experience at least, always used the term "TTY" while laypeople used "Teletype". > > Now the Model 33, and other terminals, had a very limited repertoire. A KSR ("keyboard send/receive") version of the Model 33 could do exactly two things: "keyboard send" (operator pressed a key, Teletype printed the character and transmitted the code for that character) and "receive" (Teletype received the code for a character and printed it). > > CRT terminals soon appeared, but mostly they had little capability that a TTY did not have. Hence the early CRT terminals were sometimes referred to as "glass TTYs". > > Come the 1970's and integrated circuit technology got to the point where a computer (a "microprocessor") could be put on a chip that was cheap enough to be used in mass-produced items). Various vendors began making computer terminals with microprocessors inside (the jargon term was "microprocessor [is] on-board"). A terminal with a microprocessor inside could do such complicated operations as "hold the first line on the CRT constand while scrolling all other lines up and down." Such a terminal was said to have "intelligent" and to be an "intelligent terminal" or a "smart terminal". > > Inevitably, I suppose, a CRT that did not have the features a microprocessor could provide became known as a "dumb terminal". Sometime in 1976-79 one vendor even advertised his brand of "smart terminals" claiming they were superior to everyone else's smart terminals. > > Then stand-alone microcomputers such as the PC and the later Macintosh came along. These microcomputers could do anything a smart terminal could and when not being used as terminals could do all sorts of other useful things, such as games. Both smart terminals and dumb terminals became obsolete during the 1980's and nowadays are rarely found (the last survivors I know of are the TDD (Teleommunications for the Deaf) devices which may still be in use among hearing-impaired persons who haven't switched over to e-mail and Web sites.) > > Although there are no more "smart terminals", the word "smart" and its synonym "intelligent" have survived to describe other devices than computer terminals, e.g. "smartphones" in which "smart" has gone from being a stand-alone adjective to a prefix. > > End of lecture. > > - Jim Landau > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 14 22:32:26 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:32:26 +0200 Subject: prefix of the year (POTY) - smart In-Reply-To: <201201142028.q0E5f2U7002526@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Then there were those "smart bombs" so much in the news a few years > back, which may have helped the metaphoricization process along. See also Mark Peters' smart take on smart-words from 2010: http://www.good.is/post/anatomy-of-a-smart-word/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 15 03:47:11 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:47:11 -0800 Subject: Kanban Message-ID: I'm having trouble with the OED's definition 1 for kanban. It says: ----- In Japanese industry: a card or sheet displaying a set of manufacturing specifications and requirements which is circulated to suppliers and sent along a production line to regulate the supply of components. ----- At essence, a kanban (or kanban card) is simply a card that identifies a component and accompanies that component (or box, etc. of components). Typically the kanban accompanies the component when it is delivered to the line. When the worker uses the component (or uses up the box of components), the worker sends the kanban back to production. Production then knows that a replacement is needed. Sure, as the OED definition says, the kanban can also be sent to the supplier, and I suppose it can include specifications and requirements, but those are incidental to the kanban. I wonder if the third citation has caused confusion. It says: ----- A Kanban is actually a small card on which directions are given to produce or deliver a certain item. A Kanban is thus a tool that triggers production or delivery of necessary products in the appropriate quantities at the precise time. The simplicity of Kanban is refreshing?no elaborate computer programs or multisheet ordering forms. ----- I would take "directions are given to produce or deliver a certain item" to be somewhat metaphorical. It may be that there is a system that actually has a set of directions, but my general take would be that the kanban itself is the "directions." When production gets the kanban, the "directions" are "order another one of me." Also, I think "Japanese industry" might be expanded to "lean manufacturing." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 04:10:35 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 04:10:35 +0000 Subject: Quiet rooms Message-ID: whisper-quiet was first used to describe automobiles and typewriters, according to research I carried out in a trademark infringement case a number of years ago. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:47:10 PM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Quiet rooms On Jan 14, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Interesting. Some libraries, especially law libraries, have "quiet > rooms" where laptops are not permitted. That was /my/ original reference. > > VS-) Ditto "quiet cars" on trains, although more for (non-use of) cell phones than for laptops. At least some of those quiet cars are pretty noisy, depending on the trains. LH > > On 1/14/2012 10:33 AM, Darla Wells wrote: >> I have seen the term used in Wichita Falls, Texas, schools along with >> resource room to mean a place for kids with various learning problems, >> also. Though in recent years, prison terminology seems to be more prevalent >> in the schools than psychiatric terms. >> Darla >> >> 2012/1/14 Wilson Gray >> >> Interesting, From a former roommate, a paranoid schizophrenic a >> sometime resident of Harvard Med School's McLean Hospital, I'd >> gathered that _quiet room_ was the proper term for "padded cell." >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 15 06:52:42 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 01:52:42 -0500 Subject: dime In-Reply-To: <4F05478C.7010705@gmail.com> Message-ID: A couple more instances from ESPN post-game coverage after SF-NO playoff game. > Talk about a dime! This was a comment by Marcellus Wiley about one of New Orleans touchdowns. A few minutes later he used similar language to describe a San Francisco touchdown. But ESPN was not done yet. Late post-game NFL Primetime used the footage for the winning SF touchdown as the "Primetime Dime" feature. I have no idea if this is a regular feature or just a special category for today (but it had its own special logo). In an entirely different context, in Season 5 Episode 7 of Psych, the word "dime" appears several times. > 00:17:17 > Shawn: Yeah, man, he's right. > I ain't trying to die. > > Craig (Chi McBride): Look, man, you ain't > the only one with a dime piece ... > 00:30:15 > Juliet: Hey, guys, any new leads? > > Craig: How you feel, mama? > > Shawn: Dude...Really? > > Craig: She a dime piece. > > Shawn: Dime piece? > ?: What is that, > like an invisible stopwatch > ?: or a chocolate coin? > > Juliet: It's a hot woman. > A ten. > And thank you. > > Craig: Oh, yeah. > > ?: Wow > > Craig: You ain't the only one > with a dime piece > waiting for him out there. > > ?: Dime piece. > Craig: Northcutt has a girlfriend. I don't have the recording, so I was reconstructing some of the dialog from memory and some from available soundtrack pieces (Hence some lines attributed to "?"). A couple more football-related comments. On overnight SportsCenter (1 am ET): "People of San Francisco have been Tebowing for years waiting for Alex Smith to emerge." This seems to be just a straight substitute for "praying" rather than an association with the specific Tebowing gesture. "The Show", "the Big Show", "going to the Big Show" are references to 1) major leagues (baseball, hockey or something else) or 2) the playoffs or some sort of a championship game (e.g., the World Series, the Superbowl, the All-Star Game, etc.). I am not sure if any of the phrases are used in the UK, although I've heard the reference in a couple of soccer (football) broadcasts in reference to some players from lower-level leagues being transferred to top-tier teams (e.g., from a Championship team to a Premiership team in England). But in all cases it was in US broadcasts of English games, so I'm not sure of the provenance of the phrasing. Whatever the case, "the Bigs" is in the OED, but the variants on "The Show" are not (show n.1 15.b. refers to military battles or campaigns--both for The Show and The Big Show). Final comment: "showboating" is listed in the OED as a derivative under "showboater", but not under "showboat v.". That makes no sense. VS-) On 1/5/2012 1:47 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance > can't hurt. > > "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN > Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball > game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 15 08:14:09 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:14:09 +0700 Subject: syntactic variation in NYCE Message-ID: Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone knows of work documentation or analysis of the non-standard counterfactual conditional pattern woulda ?woulda (alternatively would've ?would've) as in "I woulda gone if I woulda known" "I wouldn't have murdered him if he wouldn't have eaten my pizza" in New York City English these are the normal way counter-factuality is expressed. But I only have my own anecdotal experience encountering them. A google scholar search came up pretty empty. These and interrogative forms in indirect questions (covered ages ago by Ron Butters) are about the main non-standard structures that strike me as characteristic of White versions of NYCE besides non-standard forms found everywhere (e.g., ain't, double negatives). But I'm eager to hear of any others. I did here a claim that NYers barely use present perfect. However, I have no evidence to this effect. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 13:27:13 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:27:13 +0000 Subject: syntactic variation in NYCE Message-ID: Such nonstandard variants as "Gore may have won the election" are quite common and have been discussed in various places. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Michael Newman To: Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:14:09 PM GMT+0700 Subject: [ADS-L] syntactic variation in NYCE Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone knows of work documentation or analysis of the non-standard counterfactual conditional pattern woulda ?woulda (alternatively would've ?would've) as in "I woulda gone if I woulda known" "I wouldn't have murdered him if he wouldn't have eaten my pizza" in New York City English these are the normal way counter-factuality is expressed. But I only have my own anecdotal experience encountering them. A google scholar search came up pretty empty. These and interrogative forms in indirect questions (covered ages ago by Ron Butters) are about the main non-standard structures that strike me as characteristic of White versions of NYCE besides non-standard forms found everywhere (e.g., ain't, double negatives). But I'm eager to hear of any others. I did here a claim that NYers barely use present perfect. However, I have no evidence to this effect. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 14:35:28 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 09:35:28 -0500 Subject: dime In-Reply-To: <4F1277BA.2080501@gmail.com> Message-ID: One more, reprising a construction we've been discussing: Mike Francesa, on his syndicated TV/Radio "Football Sunday" analysis show this morning, tells us that "The Niners are worthy of respect. If you had watched them this year and hadn't gone to sleep on them, especially in December, you saw that this team was legitimate". I noticed the "dime" references on ESPN, and while Victor doesn't speculate, my assumption is that while they do indeed refer to "dropping a dime", (as opposed to say the dime that someone or something can stop on), they differ from the "drop a dime on" that alludes to turning someone (e.g. a confederate) in to the authorities, as we've discussed earlier. In this football usage, the dime represents a very small object that can (or can't) be dropped into a very tight place (thrown accurately to a receiver closely covered). But it is probably is related to the basketball "assist" sense Victor mentions as well. Interesting about the generalization of "Tebowing", which I hadn't heard but isn't too surprising. As for "the show" = 'the major leagues' as in Victor's sense 1) below, I think its trajectory received a big boost at the time from the movie _Bull Durham_. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 1:52 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > A couple more instances from ESPN post-game coverage after SF-NO playoff > game. > >> Talk about a dime! > > This was a comment by Marcellus Wiley about one of New Orleans > touchdowns. A few minutes later he used similar language to describe a > San Francisco touchdown. > > But ESPN was not done yet. Late post-game NFL Primetime used the footage > for the winning SF touchdown as the "Primetime Dime" feature. I have no > idea if this is a regular feature or just a special category for today > (but it had its own special logo). > > In an entirely different context, in Season 5 Episode 7 of Psych, the > word "dime" appears several times. >> 00:17:17 >> Shawn: Yeah, man, he's right. >> I ain't trying to die. >> >> Craig (Chi McBride): Look, man, you ain't >> the only one with a dime piece > ... >> 00:30:15 >> Juliet: Hey, guys, any new leads? >> >> Craig: How you feel, mama? >> >> Shawn: Dude...Really? >> >> Craig: She a dime piece. >> >> Shawn: Dime piece? >> ?: What is that, >> like an invisible stopwatch >> ?: or a chocolate coin? >> >> Juliet: It's a hot woman. >> A ten. >> And thank you. >> >> Craig: Oh, yeah. >> >> ?: Wow >> >> Craig: You ain't the only one >> with a dime piece >> waiting for him out there. >> >> ?: Dime piece. >> Craig: Northcutt has a girlfriend. > > I don't have the recording, so I was reconstructing some of the dialog > from memory and some from available soundtrack pieces (Hence some lines > attributed to "?"). > > A couple more football-related comments. > > On overnight SportsCenter (1 am ET): > > "People of San Francisco have been Tebowing for years waiting for Alex > Smith to emerge." > > This seems to be just a straight substitute for "praying" rather than an > association with the specific Tebowing gesture. > > "The Show", "the Big Show", "going to the Big Show" are references to 1) > major leagues (baseball, hockey or something else) or 2) the playoffs or > some sort of a championship game (e.g., the World Series, the Superbowl, > the All-Star Game, etc.). I am not sure if any of the phrases are used > in the UK, although I've heard the reference in a couple of soccer > (football) broadcasts in reference to some players from lower-level > leagues being transferred to top-tier teams (e.g., from a Championship > team to a Premiership team in England). But in all cases it was in US > broadcasts of English games, so I'm not sure of the provenance of the > phrasing. Whatever the case, "the Bigs" is in the OED, but the variants > on "The Show" are not (show n.1 15.b. refers to military battles or > campaigns--both for The Show and The Big Show). > > Final comment: "showboating" is listed in the OED as a derivative under > "showboater", but not under "showboat v.". That makes no sense. > > VS-) > > On 1/5/2012 1:47 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> I believe this has been mentioned before, but adding another instance >> can't hurt. >> >> "[Ricky] Rubio had eight dimes in the first half." This came from ESPN >> Sportscenter, where it could only mean dime==assist (in a basketball >> game). (As in "drop a dime", several layers removed.) ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:21:39 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:21:39 -0500 Subject: Fisher revival (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E073942@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Yes, "humen" was a joke. Sent from my iPad On Jan 11, 2012, at 10:51 AM, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> >> Owing to the popularity of a book known as the King James Bible, the > word >> "fishers" is quite well known to many Christians and other literate > humen in >> the English-speaking world. >> > > As opposed to "humen" . . . > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:26:28 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:26:28 -0500 Subject: con (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71E073959@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? Sent from my iPad On Jan 13, 2012, at 11:28 AM, "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Con as in convict or con as in confidence game? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of >> Dan Nussbaum >> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:25 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: con >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ---------------------- >> - >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Nussbaum >> Subject: con >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ >> - >> >> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How > unusu= >> al is this? >> >> >> Dan Nussbaum=20 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 16:23:50 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:23:50 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <8CE9FBA0769B0A5-241C-FD903@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? Sent from my iPad On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? > > > Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 15 19:21:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:21:48 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <201201151548.q0F4VIBE017583@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to appear in a psychiatric paper. VS-) On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > >> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >> >> >> Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 19:25:41 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: on the retronym watch: "human translation" Message-ID: Don't know if this one has been mentioned, although no doubt some of its cousins have. Today I got an unsolicited solicitation from a company that promises to provide "Fast and affordable human translation". In the old days, before computers, tricorders, and dolphins got into the act, this was known as "translation". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 19:29:03 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:29:03 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <4F13274C.1000703@gmail.com> Message-ID: If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But > there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of > these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to > appear in a psychiatric paper. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> >>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>> >>> >>> Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 15 20:48:05 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:48:05 +0000 Subject: con Message-ID: but why would a psych article mention rabbits? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:29:03 PM GMT-0500 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] con If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But > there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of > these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to > appear in a psychiatric paper. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >> >>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>> >>> >>> Dan Nussbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 15 21:09:44 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:09:44 -0500 Subject: con In-Reply-To: <201201152048.q0FKm62J001034@mr2.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Um? (Actually, _connil_ did once refer to refer to French bunnies, but was tabooed out of the language the same way, and for the same reason, that _coney_ was in English.) _con_ (< Lat. _cunnus_) is a pretty interesting item in French, though, with its primary (nominal) meaning of 'cunt' and its secondary (adjectival) meaning of 'stupid' ("C'est con"). It was in the former sense I was thinking it might have emerged in the context of a psychoanalytic exchange, but youneverknow. LH On Jan 15, 2012, at 3:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > but why would a psych article mention rabbits? > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Laurence Horn > To: > Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:29:03 PM GMT-0500 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] con > > If the psychiatric paper was written in--or quotes patients speaking in--French, another possibility presents itself. > > LH > > On Jan 15, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> That's three now--convert, confidence game, contra ("pro and con"). But >> there is also conservative (e.g., neocon) and convert, although each of >> these usually appears in narrower circumstances and is not likely to >> appear in a psychiatric paper. >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/15/2012 11:23 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >>> Meaning "convict" (noun) or "con" 'against'? >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw the word con used in a scientific (Psychiatric) paper. How unusual is this? >>>> >>>> >>>> Dan Nussbaum >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 16 03:01:15 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:01:15 -0500 Subject: con[ey] In-Reply-To: <201201152048.q0FKm6vS008180@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 1/15/2012 03:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >but why would a psych article mention rabbits? It might be about the fear of evil mutant bunny rabbits -- leporiphobia. Consider: "Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit" "Monte Python and the Holy Grail" And Edward P. Dowd is a case all by himself. (Or, as was said about Basil Fawlty by one of the two doctors, Mr. and Mrs., "there's enough there for an article.") There is also the case of "Little Albert": see Wikipedia. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:07:03 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:07:03 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: bagel (OED 1919) 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:15:23 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:15:23 -0800 Subject: con[ey] In-Reply-To: <201201160302.q0FB00p2014316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2012, at 7:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/15/2012 03:48 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >> but why would a psych article mention rabbits? i must have missed this, but did the original poster ever give us anything about the context, beyond that it was in an article about psychiatry? the guessing-game is entertaining, but tedious. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:34:29 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:34:29 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Anti-Semitism" Message-ID: anti-Semitism ()ED 1882) 1880 _Jewish Messenger_ 16 Jan. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Gustav Meyer of Dresden has again been elected one of the city council, of which Dr. Emil Lehman is also a member. This is despite anti-Semitism. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 03:40:44 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:40:44 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Anti-Semite" Message-ID: anti-Semite (OED 1881) 1879 _Jewish Messenger_ 5 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) In the _Ogden Junction_ [Ogden City, Utah], of November 26th, appeared a timely article on the "Anti-Semite League of Germany," from which we extract the following: ... What General Montecuculi wanted to fight the Turks with, court-preacher Sroecker in Berlin, the gang leader of the "Anti-Semite League," wants to fight the Jews with. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 05:51:08 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:51:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <201201160307.q0FB00pA014316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in J?disches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of J?disches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erz?hlungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 06:59:45 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:59:45 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <201201160551.q0G4UlXW031500@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a 1902 citation for "Beigel" with a footnote in an article about "Jewish London", but the word is not yet treated as an English word. Yet this cite might be interesting because it helps to document the transition of the word into the English language. Cite: 1902, Living London edited by George R. Sims, Volume 2, Jewish London by S. Gelberg, Page 30, Column 2, Cassell and Company, Limited, London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=-NY-AAAAYAAJ&q=beigel#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] >From break of day till the going-down of the sun rings the song of the coster through its grimy streets. "Weiber, Weiber! Heimische Beigel!* sing out the women, with handkerchief drawn tightly over head. * "Ladies, ladies! rolls for sale just like those in our native land." [End excerpt] Garson On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is > slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). > Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better > still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before > it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more > Yiddishisms as well. > > http://goo.gl/spOG9 > Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 > The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff >> TASHRAK >> Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government >> of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first >> Yiddish sketch published in J?disches Tageblatt, 1893; first English >> story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of J?disches >> Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in >> Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, >> and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene >> Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erz?hlungen, 4 >> vols., New York, 1910. >> >> THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL >> When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a >> learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions >> and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a >> Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" >> This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my >> head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, >> took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece >> with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten >> up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to >> annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at >> prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was >> wrong with me. > > This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more > pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. > > http://goo.gl/d0LUb > Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 > Cookery. p. 257/1 >> The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another >> form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) >> into hot water and adding butter. > > The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. > > VS-) > > On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> bagel (OED 1919) >> >> 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. >> >> Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 08:10:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:10:59 -0500 Subject: bugle Message-ID: There are three separate nouns under "bugle" in the OED. Bugle n.1 > Etymology: < Old French /bugle/ < Latin /b?culus/ , diminutive of > /bo-s bov-is/ an ox. This one includes buffalo, hunting (buffalo) horn, bugle-horn (as just "bugle") because it was originally made from buffalo horn, and a bunch of derivatives and combinations Bugle n.2 > Etymology: < French /bugle/ = Italian /bugola/ , Spanish /bugula/ < > late Latin /bugula/ . The Latin /bugillo/ , used by Marcellus > Empiricus /c/400, seems to denote the same plant. This one is pretty one-dimensional > The English name of the plants belonging to the genus /Ajuga/, esp. > the common species /A. reptans/. (The names /buglossa/ and /bugle/ > were occasionally confounded by early writers.) This particular "bugle" will not be relevant to the rest of the comment. Bugle n.3 > Etymology:Etymology unknown. Of the medieval Latin /bugulus/ , > sometimes quoted as the etymon, a single instance, as the name of a > ?pad?, or framework for the hair, used by Italian ladies, occurs in a > chapter /De moribus civium Placenti?/ 1388, in Muratori /Script. > Italian/ XVI. 580; no similar word is known in Italian or French. > /Bugle/ has a certain resemblance in form to Dutch /beugel/ a ring ( < > Middle Dutch /b?ghil/ , /b?ghel/ , Franck); but no connection of > meaning appears. The proposed etymology does not give much sense of what the item is. Collins and AHD give simply "origin unknown". > A tube-shaped glass bead, usually black, used to ornament wearing > apparel. (Formerly also collective, or as the name of material.) My first thought was the idea of a connection between bugle n.1 and bugle n.3--not so much for the buffalo horn as for the metal version. A bugle-horn is essentially a twisted (curved) tube. But the fact that it originated from a buffalo horn seems inescapable. And the forms of the two are quite distinct until they converge toward modern spelling. And bugle beads are pretty much straight rods, not cones or funnels, as would have been implied from a connection to bugle n.1. There are several 19th century dictionaries in GB that mention the Germanic (Swedish, Norwegian, German, Icelandic) use of "bagel", "bugel", "bogel" or something similar. But the one that comes closest is this one. http://goo.gl/dZGv7 An Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language. Volume 1. By John Jamison. Revised Edition. Paisley: 1879 (University Microfilm reproduction, 1964) p. 178/2 > BEUGLE-BACKED, /adj./ Crook-backed > --/Beugle-back'd/, bodied like a beetle. > Watson's Coll. ii. 54 > A.-S. /bug-an/, to bow; Teut. /boechel/, gibbus. Germ. /bugel/, a > dimin. from /bug/, denoting any thing curved or circular. It is > undoubtedly the same word that is now pronounced /boolie-backit/, S. It's the "bodied like a beetle" quote that grabbed my attention. That seems potentially to be a good fit for bugle n.3. Is it plausible that there is a connection here? Or am I just going for the superficial similarity? ("beugle" is one of the spelling forms of bugle n.3 /and/ the Dutch form "beugle" for "ring" is mentioned in the OED note) The other question is whether the "curved" meaning of "beugle" might have been derived from bugle n.1, drawing the link in the opposite direction. One additional note. There should be a 2.c definition added to bugle n.1--one for objects that are conical or funnel-shaped, in some superficial similarity to a bugle-horn, such as the Bugles snacks. I don't think it's particularly widespread, but it's certainly in use and it earned a mention in Wiktionary (no one else seems to have it, though). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 08:18:35 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 03:18:35 -0500 Subject: bugle In-Reply-To: <4F13DB93.3050209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Webster's 1913 (on-line) adds a couple more twists. The definition corresponding to bugle n.3 is interesting, but ultimately similar to the OED: > Bugle, n. [LL. bugulus a woman's ornament: cf. G. b?gel a bent piece > of metal or wood, fr. the same root as G. biegen to bend, E. bow to > bend.] An elingated glass bead, of various colors, though commonly black. It also throws in an adjective, with an unimpeachable citation. > Bugle, a. [From Bugle a bead.] Jet black. /Bugle/ eyeballs." /Shak./ VS-) On 1/16/2012 3:10 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > There are three separate nouns under "bugle" in the OED. > > Bugle n.1 >> Etymology: < Old French /bugle/ < Latin /b?culus/ , diminutive of >> /bo-s bov-is/ an ox. > This one includes buffalo, hunting (buffalo) horn, bugle-horn (as just > "bugle") because it was originally made from buffalo horn, and a bunch > of derivatives and combinations > > Bugle n.2 >> Etymology: < French /bugle/ = Italian /bugola/ , Spanish /bugula/ < >> late Latin /bugula/ . The Latin /bugillo/ , used by Marcellus >> Empiricus /c/400, seems to denote the same plant. > > This one is pretty one-dimensional > >> The English name of the plants belonging to the genus /Ajuga/, esp. >> the common species /A. reptans/. (The names /buglossa/ and /bugle/ >> were occasionally confounded by early writers.) > > This particular "bugle" will not be relevant to the rest of the comment. > > Bugle n.3 >> Etymology:Etymology unknown. Of the medieval Latin /bugulus/ , >> sometimes quoted as the etymon, a single instance, as the name of a >> ?pad?, or framework for the hair, used by Italian ladies, occurs in a >> chapter /De moribus civium Placenti?/ 1388, in Muratori /Script. >> Italian/ XVI. 580; no similar word is known in Italian or French. >> /Bugle/ has a certain resemblance in form to Dutch /beugel/ a ring ( >> < Middle Dutch /b?ghil/ , /b?ghel/ , Franck); but no connection of >> meaning appears. > > The proposed etymology does not give much sense of what the item is. > Collins and AHD give simply "origin unknown". > >> A tube-shaped glass bead, usually black, used to ornament wearing >> apparel. (Formerly also collective, or as the name of material.) > > My first thought was the idea of a connection between bugle n.1 and > bugle n.3--not so much for the buffalo horn as for the metal version. > A bugle-horn is essentially a twisted (curved) tube. But the fact that > it originated from a buffalo horn seems inescapable. And the forms of > the two are quite distinct until they converge toward modern spelling. > And bugle beads are pretty much straight rods, not cones or funnels, > as would have been implied from a connection to bugle n.1. > > There are several 19th century dictionaries in GB that mention the > Germanic (Swedish, Norwegian, German, Icelandic) use of "bagel", > "bugel", "bogel" or something similar. But the one that comes closest > is this one. > > http://goo.gl/dZGv7 > An Etymological Dictionary of the Scottish Language. Volume 1. By John > Jamison. Revised Edition. Paisley: 1879 (University Microfilm > reproduction, 1964) > p. 178/2 >> BEUGLE-BACKED, /adj./ Crook-backed >> --/Beugle-back'd/, bodied like a beetle. >> Watson's Coll. ii. 54 >> A.-S. /bug-an/, to bow; Teut. /boechel/, gibbus. Germ. /bugel/, a >> dimin. from /bug/, denoting any thing curved or circular. It is >> undoubtedly the same word that is now pronounced /boolie-backit/, S. > > It's the "bodied like a beetle" quote that grabbed my attention. That > seems potentially to be a good fit for bugle n.3. Is it plausible that > there is a connection here? Or am I just going for the superficial > similarity? ("beugle" is one of the spelling forms of bugle n.3 /and/ > the Dutch form "beugle" for "ring" is mentioned in the OED note) The > other question is whether the "curved" meaning of "beugle" might have > been derived from bugle n.1, drawing the link in the opposite direction. > > One additional note. There should be a 2.c definition added to bugle > n.1--one for objects that are conical or funnel-shaped, in some > superficial similarity to a bugle-horn, such as the Bugles snacks. I > don't think it's particularly widespread, but it's certainly in use > and it earned a mention in Wiktionary (no one else seems to have it, > though). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 16 08:51:03 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 00:51:03 -0800 Subject: Gemba/genba Message-ID: I do not see this in the OHD or AHD. Wikipedia has an entry under "gemba" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemba). From Japanese ?? (present location), the word is used in lean manufacturing to refer to a location where work is being done. The expression "genba principle" is often used, referring to the idea that sitting in an ivory tower and creating rules for workers does not work, so you have to go to where they are working to figure out how to improve things. It seems to appear in 1993 in "New Shop Floor Management" by Kiyoshi Suzaki (http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/new-shop-floor-management/id381481786?mt=11). Around 1997 is when the word becomes more visible on the Internet. That is the year when Masaaki Imai's book "Gemba Kaizen: A Commonsense, Low-Cost Approach to Management " came out (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Gemba-Kaizen/Masaaki-Imai/e/9780070314467). The expression "gemba workshop" is also often heard. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:08:45 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:08:45 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:19:20 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:19:20 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E0A8D@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: That surely is a major antedating Fred. The same article slightly earlier than this Dec. 1851: Oct. 18 1851 in Athenaeum and in The Literary Examiner {London]. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 13:22:14 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:22:14 +0000 Subject: Another Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: anti-Semitic (OED 1881) 1873 _Trewman's Exeter Flying Post_ 8 Jan. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) Passing over that piteous slip which must have been borrowed at a low rate of interest from his friend the anti-Semitic lecturer. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 16 14:33:57 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:57 -0500 Subject: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of the new year? In-Reply-To: <201201140446.q0E4UBfv020858@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The NYTimes has "venture-capitalist" in a letter published Nov. 29, 1941. GB has numerous cites for "venture capital" before 1940. DanG On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start of > the > new year? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to George, Victor, and other participants on this thread for > comments. I think the 1971 date for "venture capitalist" can be pushed > back. Here is a citation in 1946 and one in 1953. > > Cite: 1946 July 27, Collier's Weekly, The Truth About Henry Kaiser by > Lester Velie, Start Page 11, Quote Page 12, Column 3, The > Crowell-Collier Publishing Company. (Unz) > [Begin excerpt] > To friendly officials in Washington, Mr. Kaiser is a great natural > resource during peace as he was during war - the sort of venture > capitalist our economy needs to make it grow. To critics, he is the > pampered darling of the New Deal, the greatest individual beneficiary > of government largesse in history. > [End excerpt] > > Cite: 1953 June 27, The Saturday Review, Human Want Is Obsolete by > Gerard Piel, Start Page 9, Quote Page 10, Column 2, Saturday Review > Associates Inc., New York. (Unz) > [Begin excerpt] > What science needs is brave money-with no strings attached. We are not > being brave enough when we find it necessary to invoke the prospect of > practical results in order to justify support of basic science. But if > results are all that is wanted, it takes a reckless venture capitalist > to back basic research. > [End excerpt] > > The 1959 Time magazine cite given earlier quotes Sukarno using the > phrase "vulture capitalists". This was after "venture capitalist" > entered circulation. However, the magazine article does not indicate > whether Sukarno was speaking English when he used the term. If he was > not speaking English then the wordplay of "venture" and "vulture" may > not be relevant. Knowledge of the untranslated words might be > helpful. > > The 1972 Boston Globe cite may still be the earliest one that > explicitly connects "vulture capitalist" and "venture capitalist". > > Garson > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor Steinbok > > Subject: Re: "vulture capitalist" -- WOTY in diapers at the start > of the > > new year? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The earlier examples are pretty clearly simple Socialist name-calling > > ("scavengers"), not puns or jokes--a lot like the originally Chinese > > expression "capitalist pig-dogs" that used to be popular with campus > > Communists in the 1980s and 1990s. [According to Victor Mair, it appears > > to be a pretty close translation of the Chinese original.] > > > > VS-) > > > > On 1/13/2012 6:59 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> I see that the OED has "venture capitalist" only from 1971, so the > earlier > >> examples that Garson has found wouldn't be based on the same joke. > >> > >> GAT > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Garson O'Toole > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Kudos to the OED team. Below is a citation in 1972 showing "vulture > >>> capitalists" derived from "venture capitalists" via wordplay. The > >>> phrase "vulture capitalist" actually has a much longer history, but > >>> earlier instances may not fit the modern OED definition. > >>> > >>> Cite: 1972 January 9, Boston Globe, The big job: conversion by Bruce > >>> Davidson, Start Page B-1, Quote Page B-4, Boston, Massachusetts. > >>> (ProQuest) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> No wonder, perhaps, that venture capitalists are known in some > >>> quarters as vulture capitalists. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Here are additional selected citations in chronological order. > >>> > >>> Cite: 1837 November 18, Columbian Register, The whigs of New York, > >>> Page 3, Column 3, New Haven, Connecticut (GenealogyBank) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> The usury laws should not be repealed, so us to suffer the vulture > >>> capitalists and shavers to devour business men of small means at one > >>> repast. The usury enactments should he more severe. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1885 July, Progress, Mr. Chamberlain and Socialism by Thomas > >>> Maguire, Start Page 316, Quote Page 318, Column 2, Progressive > >>> Publishing Co., London. (Google Books full view) > >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=5gMbAAAAYAAJ&q=vulture#v=snippet& > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> For do we not find everywhere throughout our civilisation the hundred > >>> proletarian personalities degraded to brute level, divested of all > >>> individuality that the one vulture-capitalist, personality, may air an > >>> illegitimate individuality, as baneful as it is accursed? > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1914 December 26, Puck, The Unemployment Problem, Page 7, New > >>> York. (ProQuest) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> But if you should meet any one of these twenty-nine, he will tell you > >>> with a droop of the lower lip, that times are terrible; that the > >>> vulture capitalist is tearing the vitals from the laboring man; that > >>> Wilson never should have been elected; and that foreigners must be > >>> kept out of the country > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1959 September 7, Time, INDONESIA: Drastic Medicine, Time Inc., > >>> New York. (Online Time archive; Accessed 2012 January 13) > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> All this was done to the accompaniment of denunciations by Sukarno of > >>> "vulture capitalists." Added he: "Whoever scoops up wealth at the > >>> expense of the public, whoever disrupts the public economy, will be > >>> arrested, will be taken to court, will be punished severely, and if > >>> necessary will be sentenced to death." > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Cite: 1962 May, The Journal of Asian Studies, Some > >>> Social-Anthropological Obervations on Gotong Rojong Practices in Two > >>> Villages of Central Java. by Koentjaraningrat; Structural Changes in > >>> Javanese Society: The Village Sphere. by D. H. Burger; Living > >>> Conditions of Plantation Workers and Peasants on Java in 1939-1940. ; > >>> Some Factors Related to Autonomy and Dependence in Twelve Javanese > >>> Villages by Barbara Dohrenwend Review by: Clifford Geertz Volume 21, > >>> Number 3, Start Page 413, Quote Page 414, Published by: Association > >>> for Asian Studies (JSTOR) > >>> http://www.jstor.org/stable/2050724 > >>> [Begin excerpt] > >>> In introducing his "Conception" of "Guided Democracy" in 1957, > >>> President Sukarno attacked as alien and un-Indonesian the "free-fight > >>> Liberalism" of "vulture capitalism," which had apparently > >>> characterized the Republic thus far, saying that it should be replaced > >>> by a more properly indigenous and morally superior spirit: Gotong > >>> Rojong. > >>> [End excerpt] > >>> > >>> Typos and other errors are possible. Please double-check before use. > >>> Best Garson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 16 16:30:06 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:30:06 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" In-Reply-To: <4F13BACC.6020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: Terrific discoveries, Victor! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in J?disches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of J?disches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erz?hlungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Jan 16 17:25:23 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:25:23 +0000 Subject: no more strict deadlines Message-ID:

Hey, hey.
I was told that id never be able to bounce back from my debt this couldnt have come at a better time I refused to keep living that way!
http://rowerychrzanow.pl/breakingnews/71JohnYoung/ I love not having responsibilities anymore
this will be worth your time!

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 00:17:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:17:13 -0500 Subject: campaignerati Message-ID: http://goo.gl/9CmAI > The campaignerati like to say that states are the only things that > matters, so you should ignore national polling. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 01:10:32 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:10:32 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Coeducation" Message-ID: coeducation (OED 1852) 1850 _Home Journal_ 20 July (American Periodical Series Online) (heading) Co-education of boys and girls. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 01:49:14 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 01:49:14 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Isolationism" Message-ID: isolationism (OED 1922) 1919 _Manchester Guardian_ 21 Mar. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Broadly, one may say that the opposition in the Senate is composed temperamentally of these two groups, which may for convenience be called Hamiltonian and Isolationism. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Tue Jan 17 03:00:16 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:00:16 -0800 Subject: from my inbox Message-ID: (sent to be by a 72-year-old Realtor) I have been in many places, but I've never been in Cahoots. Apparently, you can't go alone. You have to be in Cahoots with someone. I've also never been in Cognito. I hear no one recognizes you there. I have, however, been in Sane. They don't have an airport; you have to be driven there. I have made several trips there, thanks to my friends, my husband, and my kids. I would like to go to Conclusions, but you have to jump, and I'm not too much on physical activity anymore. I have also been in Doubt. That is a sad place to go, and I try not to visit there too often. I've been in Flexible, but only when it was very important to stand firm. Sometimes I'm in Capable, and I go there more often as I'm getting older. One of my favorite places to be is in Suspense! It really gets the adrenalin flowing and pumps up the old heart! At my age I need all the stimuli I can get! I may have been in Continent, and I don't remember what country I was in. It's an age thing. PLEASE DO YOUR PART! Today is one of the many National Mental Health Days throughout the year. You can do your bit by remembering to send an e-mail to at least one unstable person. My job is done! _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:11:32 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:11:32 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Populist" Message-ID: populist (OED 1891 Dec. as adjective, 1892 as noun) 1891 _Macon Telegraph_ 31 May 4 (America's Historical Newspapers) Southern Alliancemen now know what is expected of them, and must each determine for himself whether he is a Democrat or a ":Populist" -- the name authoritatively announced as the designation of a member of the new party. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:38:24 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:38:24 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Immunology" Message-ID: immunology (OED 1909) 1906 _Journal of Infectious Diseases_ 30 June 683 (JSTOR) To penetrate more deeply into such mechanism and to apply newer developments in immunology, the result primarily of the researches of Wright and Douglas, is the object of this investigation. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:26:36 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:26:36 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Fundamentalism" Message-ID: fundamentalism (OED 1923) 1912 _Fort Worth Star-Telegram_ 16 Feb. (America's Historical Newspapers) It is evident to every thing [sic] individual that the need of the age is not sensationalism, but fundamentalism. There never was a time when the fundamentals of God's eternal word were needed more to be heralded from every pulpit as at this very moment. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 03:20:26 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 03:20:26 +0000 Subject: Slight Antedating of "Populism" Message-ID: populism (OED 1892 Oct. 22) 1892 _Dallas Morning News_ 7 Oct. (America's Historical Newspapers) But there are phases of political populism treading upon parental authority in education, as seen in Wisconsin and Illinois, which give a different turn to conservative democratic and Catholic endeavor in harmony. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jan 17 05:27:48 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:27:48 -0800 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: Wow, this is quite striking, Fred. The generally accepted story has it that "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 as Ger. Antisemitismus, by way of providing a genteel replacement for Judenhass, and that the early English occurrences were merely translations of that. If that was the case, then the OED's 1881 citation would be in line. This one might call for a radical revision of that assumption. I say "might" because it isn't clear to me, looking at the passage, exactly what Carlyle is referring to with the phrase. (It almost never is, with Carlyle.) Could this be merely a typically vivid Carlylean reference to some theological controversy (which in context would make sense) or to a philological one (there were plenty, involving Biblical translations.) And if not is there any reason to suppose that 'Semitic' here is restricted to Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr http://amzn.to/x5EjGC Geoff > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > anti-Semitic (OED 1881) > > 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 10:37:34 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:37:34 -0500 Subject: Jewish Problem Message-ID: The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. > 1. Of, belonging to, or characteristic of, the Jews; Israelitish, Hebrew. > ... > 1941 Time 24 Feb. 102/3 Alfred Rosenberg last fortnight opened in > Frankfurt am Main what Nazis call 'the biggest library in the world > dealing exclusively with the Jewish problem'. > 1957 Oxf. Dict. Christian Church 1093/2 The Jewish problem arose at a > later date than in Spain, and it was not until 1536 that, under the > influence of the civil power, the Inquisition was set up. I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly snowballed after. In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually interesting. > 3. c. With qualifying noun or adjective: a seemingly insoluble > quandary affecting a specified group of people or a nation; (also) a > long-standing personal difficulty./ > drink/, /drinking problem/: see the first element. > 1851 J. Bigelow /Jamaica in 1850/ 122 Such is the solution of the West > Indian problem, advocated by one of the most distinguished writers and > thinkers in England: a restoration of slavery. > 1879 /Nation/ 2 Jan. 7/2 The theory of certain amiable persons, that > the real solution of the Indian problem is extermination, ought not > for a moment to be entertained. > 1897 E. Ferri /Criminal Sociol./ p. viii, The proper method of > arriving at a more or less satisfactory solution of the criminal > problem is to inquire into the causes which are producing the criminal > population. > 1936 H. G. Wells /Anat. Frustration/ xv. 178 That does not close the > Jewish problem for you. > 1969 'J. Morris' /Fever Grass/ iv. 44 She had the body of a ballet > dancer with a weight problem. > 1974 E. Ambler /Doctor Frigo/ i. 41 If Villegas had a health problem > which could be helped by a change of climate, [etc.]. > 1980 /Dun's Rev./ July 93 If Giscard was indeed delivering a Gaullist > ?Non? to new members until the British problem is straightened out, > then a whole new saga of EEC dissension has been signaled. > 2004 /Time Out/ 31 Mar. 180/3 /N.A. (Narcotics Anonymous)/ If you have > any kind of drug problem then may be we can help. The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the "drug problem" or the "weight problem". In fact, the only quotes of this kind that may be regarded as parallel are 1879, 1897 and 1936, and perhaps 1980--and I am not sure about the 1879 quote. The rest have a different structure and a different meaning (more accurately reflected in the lemma). In fact, I am not even sure that the two definitions given in the lemma are compatible with each other either. Note, in particular, that "Jewish problem" (and the listed "problems" that correspond to the first part of the definition--West Indian problem, Indian problem, criminal problem, British problem) always appears with the definite article, while "weight problem", "health problem" and "drug problem" usually have the indefinite article. (However, I can foresee some examples where "criminal problem" and "British problem" would be appearing with an indefinite article and, hence, with different meaning of "problem". E.g., "Necessity of early orthodontic intervention is a typically British problem."; "But the News of the World is not just a British problem. It is an American problem, too."; "Although bright and well cared for, he developed a criminal problem."; "Criminal Law also exists because it is my experience that when you have a criminal problem, you need a criminal lawyer." Note the pragmatic shift.) "Jewish question" also shows up in a number of quotations, including one included with etymology (of Manhattanite): > 1879 /Brooklyn Daily Eagle/ 22 July 2/2 At Coney Island ... there are > other hotels--one of them, the Brighton, being in direct rivalry with > the Manhattan. It will be interesting to know if the Brighton people > believe they will profit by the action of the Manhattanites on the > Jewish question. The rest show up under accomplishment 1.a., cleansing (DA 10/2001), final solution (final 3.b.), propination, intractable A. 2. and poisonous 2.a. (same quote). > 1992 R. Harris /Fatherland/ iv. 253 The organisational, technical and > material measures necessary for the accomplishment of the final > solution of the Jewish question. > 1946 tr. A. Rosenberg in /Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression/ (U.S. Chief > Counsel Prosecution of Axis Criminality) V. 557 The Jewish question > ... must be solved and ... all nations of Europe will march behind > this cleansing at the end. > 1947 /Trial German Major War Criminals/ (H.M.S.O.) xi. p. ix, Final > solution of the Jewish question. > 1995 J. Moskalewicz & A. Zieli?ski in D. B. Heath /Internat. Handbk. > Alcohol & Culture/ xxi. 225 Propination is strongly associated with > 'the Jewish question' in Poland. Because of legal and customary > restrictions, one of the few careers open to Jews was to lease an inn > from a local landlord. > 1899 A. White /Mod. Jew/ ii. 37 When Russia became the chief > accomplice in the murder of Polish liberty ..., the poisonous Jewish > Question infected her life-blood. She acquired the disease in a > peculiarly intractable form. It seems the two should be listed either together or separately as phrases associated with "Jewish". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 10:40:29 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:40:29 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA Message-ID: Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. http://goo.gl/zWw61 VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Jan 17 11:13:19 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:13:19 +0000 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" In-Reply-To: <4CDC665A-0C58-44CF-B0CC-B1288BC006C3@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: Above on the same page (available at Hathi Trust*) a correspondent to Carlyle quotes Carlyle's earlier-published phrase "Hebrew old clothes," a phrase that may help clarify Carlyle's usage. In an 1852 review** of Carlyle's 1851 text, both phrases are quoted and parenthetically glossed by the (theologically-involved Free Church Magazine) reviewer: ...'Hebrew Old-clothes' (by which elegant phrase of Mr. Carlyle's, his correspondent means the Scriptures).... ....or miserable Semitic , Anti-semitic street riots (the writer means such 'miserable' disputes as, whether the Bible be worthy of our faith, or but an old wives' fable).... * http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082376181;view=image;q1=semitic;start=1;size=100;page=root;seq=16;num=6 ** http://books.google.com/books?id=DhEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=anti-semitic!%22hebrew+old-clothes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KFMVT7mbOYW4twfFrKCJAg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=anti-semitic!%22hebrew%20old-clothes%22&f=false Carlyle could reasonably be called anti-Semitic. Maybe this discussion could help with the collocation previously discussed on this list, Browning's "Semitic guess." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Geoffrey Nunberg [nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Wow, this is quite striking, Fred. The generally accepted story has it that "anti-Semitism" was coined by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 as Ger. Antisemitismus, by way of providing a genteel replacement for Judenhass, and that the early English occurrences were merely translations of that. If that was the case, then the OED's 1881 citation would be in line. This one might call for a radical revision of that assumption. I say "might" because it isn't clear to me, looking at the passage, exactly what Carlyle is referring to with the phrase. (It almost never is, with Carlyle.) Could this be merely a typically vivid Carlylean reference to some theological controversy (which in context would make sense) or to a philological one (there were plenty, involving Biblical translations.) And if not is there any reason to suppose that 'Semitic' here is restricted to Jews? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr http://amzn.to/x5EjGC Geoff > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 8:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > anti-Semitic (OED 1881) > > 1851 Thomas Carlyle _Life of John Sterling_ 6 (Google Books) It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-semitic street-riots, -- in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, -- that this man appeared in life. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 12:02:24 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:02:24 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171040.q0H4qP8g004592@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You can't protest Signs of the Apocalypse. I mean, you can, but why bother? JL On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Wiki and SOTA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > > http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Jan 17 12:53:28 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:53:28 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite Message-ID: On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 17 13:28:24 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 13:28:24 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <7EF394177636A3429FF6A6864E87439502885E07@ex-mbg-02.win.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern "anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), with anthropological elements as well, and that modern "anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I imagine that it sheds light on the question. One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the kind that the OED has traditionally put in square brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of "anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall into this category. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: 1867 anti-Semite On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 17 14:28:08 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:28:08 -0800 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171040.q0H4r2Oj013316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. that's SOPA, of course. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 17 15:02:59 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 07:02:59 -0800 Subject: Jewish Problem In-Reply-To: <201201171037.q0H4qP8c004592@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:37 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the > OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" > and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. > > ... I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this > particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry > on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the > Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" > /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be > extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can > describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is > if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for > example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a > snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, > racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive > such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar > phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly > snowballed after. > > In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually > interesting. > > ... The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the > "drug problem" or the "weight problem". similarly, "black problem" (or "(American) Negro problem"), notably in quotes saying that America doesn't have a black problem, it has a white problem -- i associate this with Richard Wright (and a version of it appears in the 1968 Kerner Commission report). related examples: Slavery was but one aspect of a race and color problem that is still far from solution here, or anywhere. (Samuel Eliot Morison, The Oxford History of the American People (1965), ch. 33) At the root of the American Negro problem is the necessity of the American white man to find a way of living with the Negro in order to be able to live with himself. (James Baldwin, "Stranger in a Village", Harper's, Oct. 1953) (some with the indefinite article, some with the definite). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 17 15:16:35 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:35 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E2BF0@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 - 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: <> I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:28 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern "anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), with anthropological elements as well, and that modern "anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I imagine that it sheds light on the question. One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the kind that the OED has traditionally put in square brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of "anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall into this category. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: 1867 anti-Semite On the Great Race-Elements in Christianity [Free content] [quick view] Dunbar I. Heath Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: ....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 17:00:13 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:00:13 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171428.q0H4r2eT013316@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: D'oh! On 1/17/2012 9:28 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for >> 24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > that's SOPA, of course. > > arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 17:36:05 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:36:05 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable Message-ID: One of the most famous skeptical comments about sexuality is attributed to the Philip Dormer Stanhope, the 4th Earl of Chesterfield who reportedly advised his son that: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable. There is no known direct evidence that Lord Chesterfield made this remark. He was born in 1694 and died in 1773, but the earliest known attribution to him appeared in a novel by the notable author W. Somerset Maugham many years later in 1939. The Yale Book of Quotations contains this important citation. Since the discussion of erotic life has historically been restricted by taboos I have gathered indirect as well as direct evidence for this type of remark. Here are selected citations in chronological order. The theme of the transience of sensual and other forms of gratification was contained in a letter sent to the 2nd Earl of Chesterfield in 1658 by the sister of his wife. The 2nd Earl apparently had been carousing on the continent, and the letter accused him of "exceeding wildness" [C2LE]: [C2LE] 1829, "Letters of Philip, Second Earl of Chesterfield, to Several Celebrated Individuals", [Letter from Lady Essex, Sister of Chesterfield's first wife, dated 1658], Start Page 97, Quote Page 97-98, E. Lloyd and Son, London. [The word "freinds" appears in the original text instead of "friends".] (Google Books full view) [Begin excerpt] ? you treate all the mad drinking lords, you sweare, you game, and commit all the extravagances that are insident to untamed youths ? I heare there is a hansom young lady (to both your shames) with child by you. My Lord, these courses must needs undoe your person, fortune, and reputation; ? you will loose your most considerable freinds, and at last make your life miserable, and, which is the saddest of all, ruin your own soule; for be confident that those momentary pleasures will have an end, and a sad one to, If you doe not speedily consider your condition, and hartily repent of it. [End excerpt] Although the behavior described is two generations removed from the 4th Earl it may still have influenced his attitudes. A pregnancy outside of marriage for a member of the nobility could be problematic. If the saying is misattributed to Chesterfield then it is possible that this background information made the misattribution more plausible to some. In 1910 Hilaire Belloc wrote a letter that discussed his unhappiness as a member of Member of Parliament in the United Kingdom. The phrases Belloc used in his description overlapped with the phrases in the joke. This similarity might be a coincidence. Alternatively, Belloc may have been playfully alluding to the quip to heighten the humor of his commentary. Cite: 1958, Letters from Hilaire Belloc, Selected and edited by Robert Speaight, [Letter from Hilaire Belloc to J. S. Phillimore dated June 12, 1910], Page 27, Hollis & Carter, London. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] Every day that passes makes me more determined to chuck Westminster; it is too low for words. The position is ridiculous and the expense is damnable. [End excerpt] In 1922 a column in Theatre Magazine printed the remarks of a "chorus girl". Her words overlapped those of the joke. This parallelism might also be coincidental. Alternatively, the overlap might have been a deliberate attempt to entertain the subset of readers who were already familiar with the comical portrayal of sex in the quotation under investigation. Indeed, the humor in the following passage seems rather weak without the tacit background knowledge that supplies context for the comments of the "chorus girl". Cite: 1922 July, Theatre Magazine, Heard on Broadway, Page 24, Column 1, Theatre Magazine Company, New York. (Internet Archive at archive.org full view) http://www.archive.org/details/magazinetheatre36newyuoft http://www.archive.org/stream/magazinetheatre36newyuoft#page/24/mode/2up [Begin excerpt] Even a show girl appears to have illusions which can be shattered. A former New York chorus girl, recently married to a foreigner with a title, was questioned by one of her friends as to how she liked being a duchess, or whatever it was. "Well," she confessed with a sigh, "I'm not crazy about it. The pleasure is only momentary, and the position is ridiculous." [End excerpt] In 1928 George Bernard Shaw sent a letter to St. John Ervine who had written a review of Shaw's work "Back to Methuselah" in The Observer. Shaw unmistakably invokes the joke, but he does not attribute it to Chesterfield. He credits "the Aberdonian", i.e., an individual from Aberdeen in Scotland. Cite: 1988, Bernard Shaw: Collected Letters: 1926-1950, Edited by Dan H. Laurence, [Letter from George Bernard Shaw to St. John Ervine dated March 12, 1928], Start Page 95, Quote Page 96-97, Viking, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] My suggestion is that the passion of the body will finally become a passion of the mind. Already there is a pleasure in thought - creative thought - that is entirely detached from ridiculous and disgusting acts and postures. ...The Aberdonian cannot say of the achievements of Einstein that "the position is ridiculous, the pleasure but momentary, and the expense damnable." [End excerpt] The recipient of the Shaw's letter, St. John Ervine, published a biography of the man in 1956, and included the part of letter containing the joke. But the mention of "the Aberdonian" confused Ervine, and he added a footnote in which he stated his opinion that Chesterfield was responsible for the jest. Note that the letter was sent in 1928, but the footnote was published in 1956. So it is not clear when Ervine decided that Chesterfield should be credited. Only the upper limit of 1956 is certain. Cite: 1956, Bernard Shaw: His Life, Work and Friends by St. John Ervine, [Excerpt of letter from George Bernard Shaw to St. John Ervine with unspecified date], Quote Page 384, William Morrow & Company, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] Footnote 1: I do not know what he means by 'the Aberdonian'. It was Lord Chesterfield who made the remark. [End excerpt] Here is a not yet verified cite that was probably published in 1938. Cite: Circa January-May 1938, T'ien Hsia Monthly, Volume 6, [Probably a book review of works by D. H. Lawrence], GB Page 163, [Published under the auspices of the Sun Yat-sen Institute for Advancement of Culture and Education, Nanking, China], Kelly and Walsh, Ltd., Shanghai, China. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on paper yet) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015004672443 [Begin excerpt] Had he forgotten his sacred mission for only a small moment, now and then; had he admitted for example, that fornication, as they say among the Philistines, is grossly overrated because the position is ridiculous, the sensation momentary and the expense frightful - why, had Lawrence thus let down his hair he might have lost a few of those champions of his. [End excerpt] Here is the 1939 YBQ cite that attributes a version of the remark to Chesterfield. Cite: 1939, Christmas Holiday by W. Somerset Maugham, Page 50, Doubleday, Doran & Company, Inc., New York. (HathiTrust full view) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4089212 http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b4089212?urlappend=%3Bseq=62 [Begin excerpt] Chesterfield said the last word about sexual congress: the pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous, and the expense is damnable. [End excerpt] Here is a not yet verified cite that was probably published in 1941. Cite: Circa 1941, The Hermit Place: A Novel by Mark Schorer, GB Page 235, Random House, New York. (Google Books and HathiTrust match; Text not visible in snippet; Not verified on paper; Data may be incorrect) [Begin excerpt] "Everyone has had one of those old professors who get a perennial laugh by saying of another common human pursuit, 'Gentlemen, the posture is ridiculous.' [End excerpt] Here is a variant of the adage that appeared in a 1945 novel and was credited to a Dean at Harvard. Cite: 1945, I'll Hate Myself in the Morning and Summer in December by Elliot Paul, [Two works are combined. The quote is contained in "I'll Hate Myself in the Morning"], Page 69, Random House, New York. (HathiTrust full view) http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b244079 http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.b244079?urlappend=%3Bseq=77 [Begin excerpt] As dear old Dean Hathaway of Harvard said: 'The pleasure is but momentary, the risk of infection considerable . . . but, worse than that, young gentlemen, the posture is ridiculous.' [End excerpt] In a medical journal in 1946 a version was credited to a "Scotsman". Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is damnable." [End excerpt] Additional relevant cites would be welcome. If someone has old editions of the "Quote ? Unquote" newsletter containing evidence about this saying I would be interested in reading it. A query about the saying at the "Quote ? Unquote" website says that a 1910 citation exists. I do not know the nature of this citation unless it is the one given above. There is another confusing citation that is connected to the date 1901. But I think this might be a misdating of an instance from the 1960s. Here is a link and excerpt about this cite. This information is from a PRWEB release dated November 9, 2011: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/11/prweb8939432.htm [Begin excerpt] ?The pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous, and the expense is damnable.? The earliest citation so far is in - of all places - a report on the Labour Party Annual Conference at Blackpool in 1901: a speaker referred to someone?s "description of the act of human love-making in which he said that the satisfaction was fleeting, the position ridiculous and the expense damnable". The query was initially published in the first edition of the newsletter in 1992. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 17 19:00:42 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:00:42 -0500 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > ><author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior >communities of Ham and Japhet. The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with "Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) "believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably clarify "anti-Semitic". >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the >Arabs and Jews.>> The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means "anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his views were. Joel >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:28 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite > >Stephen knows far more than I do about theology, I surmise, so maybe >he can answer this question: Does it appear that, before modern >"anti-Semitism," there was a theological bifurcation of Semitic vs. >Aryan (corresponding partially to Old Testament vs. New Testament?), >with anthropological elements as well, and that modern >"anti-Semitism" was a development of the earlier >theo-anthropological bifurcation? Modern anti-Semitism apparently >used some of the same terminology as the earlier version, but may be >distinguished from it. I haven't looked at the 1867 article, but I >imagine that it sheds light on the question. > >One of the consequences of doing historical lexicography with heavy >use of searchable online historical text collections is that, far >more than in the past, lexicographers have to deal with >questionable, cryptic, transitional, or accidental citations, the >kind that the OED has traditionally put in square >brackets. Carlyle's usage and some other early ones of >"anti-Semitic" or "anti-Semite" or "anti-Semitism" may well fall >into this category. > >Fred Shapiro > > > >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of >Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 7:53 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: 1867 anti-Semite > >On the Great Race-Elements in >Christianity >[Free content] [quick view] > >Dunbar I. >Heath >Journal of the Anthropological Society of London, Vol. 5, (1867), >pp. xix-xxxi, here xxvii: >....Now with the Septuagint went a large body of strongly >anti-Semitic literature, such as the books of Wisdom, >Ecclesiasticus, and Daniel, and in this latter Aryan book we have >the great source of all the ideas, the imagery, and the phraseology >of what in Europe now at the present day is called Christianity. > >http://www.jstor.org/stable/3025241?seq=9&Search=yes&searchText=anti-semite&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2528anti-semite%2529%26gw%3Djtx%26acc%3Don%26prq%3D%2528anti-semitic%2529%26Search%3DSearch%26hp%3D25%26so%3Dold%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=2501&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 17 19:04:37 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:04:37 -0500 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <4F15501D.4000805@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 05:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for >24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. In protest, I for one am going to stop contributing to Wiki. Up with intellectual property rights! Joel Berson, Intellectual. >http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Jan 17 20:37:01 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:37:01 -0600 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <8CEA367925B07EF-868-424D@Webmail-d125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? (See query below.) Gerald Cohen From: Barry Popik Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. Barry Popik Austin, TX ... GenealogyBank June 14, 1915 Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) _Located._ Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jan 17 21:15:31 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:15:31 +0000 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: <201201171900.q0HJ0iDV002636@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: The discussion in the quoted passage is really more about the original author, Daniel Ramee, than about the reviewer, E.L.G., who considers Ramee's theory outrageous. Note that Ramee is a strong proponent of the Egyptians, who were then considered a Hamitic people, so this presumably explains why he believes Ham to be a superior community. What is not clear to me is whether "anti-Semitic," as E.L.G. uses it, is simply a transparent collocation (where "Semitic" refers, at a minimum, to Jews and Arabs, and probably to other Semitic peoples too), or instead is a calque of some French phrase in Ramee's original. Ramee's book is available via Google Books, but my French is not good enough to evaluate his work. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:01 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > ><author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior >communities of Ham and Japhet. The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with "Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) "believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably clarify "anti-Semitic". >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the >Arabs and Jews.>> The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means "anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his views were. Joel >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > >John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 17 23:37:48 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 18:37:48 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201172004.q0HHE0YK031755@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would guess it is a moustache style. Jazz musicians had their jazz patch, and this man had his jazbo. Eric On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Gerald Cohen > Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? > (See query below.) > > Gerald Cohen > > From: Barry Popik > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) > Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. > > Barry Popik > Austin, TX > ... > GenealogyBank > June 14, 1915 > Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 > "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) > _Located._ > Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats > and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a > Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 18 01:37:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:37:27 -0500 Subject: 1867 anti-Semite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/17/2012 04:15 PM, Baker, John wrote: >The discussion in the quoted passage is really more about the >original author, Daniel Ramee, than about the reviewer, E.L.G., who >considers Ramee's theory outrageous. Yes, I understood that. I wondered whether knowing who E.L.G. was would cast more light on his (E.L.G/'s) use of "anti-Semitic." Joel >Note that Ramee is a strong proponent of the Egyptians, who were >then considered a Hamitic people, so this presumably explains why he >believes Ham to be a superior community. > >What is not clear to me is whether "anti-Semitic," as E.L.G. uses >it, is simply a transparent collocation (where "Semitic" refers, at >a minimum, to Jews and Arabs, and probably to other Semitic peoples >too), or instead is a calque of some French phrase in Ramee's >original. Ramee's book is available via Google Books, but my French >is not good enough to evaluate his work. > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Joel S. Berson >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:01 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: 1867 anti-Semite > >At 1/17/2012 10:16 AM, Baker, John wrote: > >There is an example of "anti-Semitic" in The Reader, vol. 1, pp. 140 > >- 41 (Feb. 7, 1863) (Google Books), in a review by "E.L.G." of > >Daniel Ramee, Histoire Generale de l'Architecture (1862), although > >the author does seem to use "Semitic" to refer broadly to the > >Semitic peoples, rather than just to Jews: > > > > > >< >author of a "Theologie Cosmogonique, ou Reconstitution de l'ancienne > >et primitive Loi," administers a new version of universal history, > >that might be defined as a sermon, in two thick volumes, on the > >irreconcileable difference and eternal enmities of the chief human > >races, the essential nobleness of the ancient Egyptian (especially > >seen in its religion), and of most Arian races, and the > >impossibility of their tolerating on the same globe the Semitic - > >the source, either personally or by the religions it has engendered, > >of all decline and every evil, past or present, in the superior > >communities of Ham and Japhet. > >The "community of Ham" was associated, by some in ancient times but >increasingly in the first few decades of the 1800s (I think) with >"Negroes" (black Africans). (There are, of course, widely varying >interpretations of the "curse of Ham.") Japhet is (by some) >"believed to be the father of the Europeans". Why both are referred >to as "superior communities" above I have no idea; it seems >inconsistent. Nor do I have any idea whether this could conceivably >clarify "anti-Semitic". > > > >Considering rightly that "Architecture is one of the expressions of > >the harmony or the disorder that rules a people or a civilization" > >(p. 608), M. Ramee has taken its history as a fit one wherewith to > >wrap up this outrageous theory of human affairs. Not that any > >attempt is made to connect them, or draw the slightest illustration > >of one from the other . . . Here, on the contrary, the architectural > >descriptions and the anti-Semitic diatribes are merely > >interstratified, with as little connection as the alternate lines of > >common and of sympathetic ink in which some secret despatches are > >said to have been sometimes written. . . . > > > >The decline of Greece is attributed to the teaching of Socrates, > >whose "idea of God was conformable to the Semitic view." (Page > >528.) . . . He occupied himself only with abstractions, and > >separated thought from the terrestrial and material world, like the > >Arabs and Jews.>> > >The previous two paragraphs do sound like the writer means >"anti-Semitic ditrabes" to be at least anti-Jewish, given the >reference to the Hebrew Testament, but also including the Semitic >Arabs. It would certainly help to know who E.L.G. was and what his >views were. > >Joel > > > > >I have not attempted to include the diacritical markings in the > >original. There is no reference to a translation of Ramee's work, > >so I assume that the quotations from Ramee are the reviewer's translations. > > > > > >John Baker > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 02:23:44 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:23:44 -0500 Subject: "shower of turkeys" Message-ID: >From the NYTimes of today, January 17: an article on the disasterous sinking of a cruise ship in the Mediterranean. ?But I?d suspect that on a modern cruise liner like that he?d be using electronic charts,? Mr. Menzies said. To hit an uncharted rock ?nowadays that?s unlikely, but it?s possible,? he said. ?The other possibility is that they were just a shower of turkeys ? incompetent ? on the bridge.? But the captain is king on his ship, Mr. Menzies said. ?The man on the bridge decides everything.? The Times identifies Mr. Menzies as the head of a British organization of Master Mariners. Turkeys certainly have an unfortunate image in popular speech. JGreen has a number of items beginning "shower of ...", but not "shower of turkeys" -- he does have "shower of tom tits", which at least are birds. He defines the general expression as an unimpressive group of people, occasionally an individual. The "shower" here might refer to a group, meaning all of the officers on the bridge, but, although Menzies uses a plural pronoun -- "they were just a shower of turkeys" -- what he is quoted in the next sentence as saying suggests he was thinking of just one man, the captain. For those of you who still don't believe you have read the newspaper unless your fingers are dark with the ink, the story began on p. 1, but the passage quoted was on p. 10, col. 2. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 02:45:09 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:45:09 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take this to mean a moustache the writer thought looked particularly stupid. Originally, "jasbo" was an ignorant, buffoonish person, or the sort of thing such a person would fancy. After jazz music became the pop music of its time -- the late 1910s -- it was taken to mean a bo (beau?) who liked jazz. Someone here, years ago, proposed deriving "jasbo" from the first name "Jasper", just the sort of name that dumb people would have. Made sense to me then, and still does. The big laughs for *jasbo*, hokum, and gravy, as we call broad humor, frequently come from the women patrons in the house where it is performed. New York Times, July 4, 1915, section X, p. 2, cols. 5-6 (Walter J. Kingsley, ?How to Sell a One-Act Play?) The "classy" stuff is pretty to talk about, it furnished inspiration for the dramatic writer, but it is the hocum, the *jazbo*, what vaudeville styles "comedy acts," which please an audience. Missouri Breeze, September 17, 1915, p. 1, col. ? Quoted in Lawrence Gushee, *Pioneers of Jazz: The Story of the Creole Band*, N. Y., &c: Oxford U. Pr., 2005, p. 138 & p. 332, fn. 11 GAT On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I would guess it is a moustache style. Jazz musicians had their jazz patch, > and > this man had his jazbo. > > Eric > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Gerald Cohen > > Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Would anyone have an idea what 1915 "jazbo on his upper lip" means? > > (See query below.) > > > > Gerald Cohen > > > > From: Barry Popik > > Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:44:33 -0500 (EST) > > Subject: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > > > I wonder if you (or ADS-L) can help to explain this. > > > > Barry Popik > > Austin, TX > > ... > > GenealogyBank > > June 14, 1915 > > Abderdeen (SD) Daily News, pg. 2 > > "Bits of Byplay" by Luke McLuke (Cincinnati Enquirer) > > _Located._ > > Dear Luke -- I have located the old fashioned man who wears brown spats > > and who has a little jazbo on his upper lip. He travels for a > > Cincinnati firm. -- Texas. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 18 03:12:11 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 03:12:11 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Feminist" Message-ID: feminist (OED 1894 Oct. as adj., 1904 as n.) 1894 _Illustrated London News_ 8 Sept. 296 (Online archive) The midgets and mosquitoes and faddy feminists are all very well and proper objects for chaff. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 04:37:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:37:05 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201172337.q0HHE0xe031755@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > jazz patch ny connection between this and "soul patch"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 18 05:31:49 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:31:49 -0800 Subject: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" Message-ID: This is a nice find. Carlyle had some very unpleasant things to say about the Jews (though Fred Kaplan says in his biography that he was no more capable of avoiding being "contaminated by some crude stereotypes" than contemporaries like Dickens, Tennyson, and Browning). But this passage seems to show pretty conclusively that his "anti-Semitic" didn't mean what the term later would, so I don't think one can claim that this usage is a true antedate of the modern use of the term, particularly since it's purely compositional. Geoff > > From: Stephen Goranson > Date: January 17, 2012 3:13:19 AM PST > Subject: Re: Major Antedating of "Anti-Semitic" > > > Above on the same page (available at Hathi Trust*) a correspondent to Carlyle quotes Carlyle's earlier-published phrase "Hebrew old clothes," a phrase that may help clarify Carlyle's usage. > In an 1852 review** of Carlyle's 1851 text, both phrases are quoted and parenthetically glossed by the (theologically-involved Free Church Magazine) reviewer: > > ...'Hebrew Old-clothes' (by which elegant phrase of Mr. Carlyle's, his correspondent means the Scriptures).... > ....or miserable Semitic , Anti-semitic street riots (the writer means such 'miserable' disputes as, whether the Bible be worthy of our faith, or but an old wives' fable).... > * > http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082376181;view=image;q1=semitic;start=1;size=100;page=root;seq=16;num=6 > > ** > http://books.google.com/books?id=DhEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=anti-semitic!%22hebrew+old-clothes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KFMVT7mbOYW4twfFrKCJAg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=anti-semitic!%22hebrew%20old-clothes%22&f=false > > Carlyle could reasonably be called anti-Semitic. > Maybe this discussion could help with the collocation previously discussed on this list, Browning's "Semitic guess." > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 18 05:56:08 2012 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:56:08 -0800 Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED Message-ID: There are lots of lacunae in the OED, but this one is very striking: 'entitlement' is treated only as a run-in from 'entitle', and documented by only one citation, from 1835, with the sense "a means of entitling; a designation, name." The entry doesn't look like anybody has touched it since Murray's day -- the latest cites are from 1860 (though this is described as an online version dated 2011 and has a link to an earlier one). So there's no mention of either the political sense of the word, which I think became common following the New Deal, or of its use in ego psychology, which gave rise to the modern popularity of "sense of entitlement." This really cries out for an out-of-sequence revision, given that the word will be even more prominent in the coming months. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 07:05:55 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:05:55 +0800 Subject: Wiki and SOTA In-Reply-To: <201201171904.q0HFFS5v005548@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Krauts are still up. "Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten? Sie fliehen vorbei wie naechtliche Schatten. Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein J?ger erschie?en..." Nieder mit dem Urheberrecht und der Amtszeit! (Recently retired, so I can say anything now (;^o). On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Wiki and SOTA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/17/2012 05:40 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >Note that English-language Wiki will be shutting down at midnight ET for > >24 hours to protest SOTA and PIPA. > > In protest, I for one am going to stop contributing to Wiki. Up with > intellectual property rights! > > Joel Berson, Intellectual. > > >http://goo.gl/zWw61 > > > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 11:24:49 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 06:24:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201180437.q0I4Wdgi013045@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Same thing. Looks like "soul patch" may be earlier. I always thought it was merely body decoration, but this source suggests a practical side to it: a facial cushion for trumpeters. "The soul patch was popularized by jazzmusicians, beatniks and other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul patch, leading the style to also be called a ?jazz dab? or ?jazz spot.? The style was popular with trumpeters in particular as the hair provided a cushion between sensitive skin and the trumpet?s mouthpiece." http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-soul-patch.htm Eric On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen > wrote: > > jazz patch > > ny connection between this and "soul patch"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 18 11:49:40 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:49:40 +0000 Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED In-Reply-To: <7EC631FF-35CA-46BF-A5B9-7D988B4AD038@ischool.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I too have noticed the need for updating "entitlement" in OED. I also have written in the Yale Law Journal about "entitlement" in its contemporary political meaning having been popularized by my friend Charles Reich in his pathbreaking Yale Law Journal articles of the early 1960s. There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of the alphabet. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Geoffrey Nunberg [nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:56 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: missing senses of 'entitlement' in the OED There are lots of lacunae in the OED, but this one is very striking: 'entitlement' is treated only as a run-in from 'entitle', and documented by only one citation, from 1835, with the sense "a means of entitling; a designation, name." The entry doesn't look like anybody has touched it since Murray's day -- the latest cites are from 1860 (though this is described as an online version dated 2011 and has a link to an earlier one). So there's no mention of either the political sense of the word, which I think became common following the New Deal, or of its use in ego psychology, which gave rise to the modern popularity of "sense of entitlement." This really cries out for an out-of-sequence revision, given that the word will be even more prominent in the coming months. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Jan 18 12:45:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:45:27 -0500 Subject: The OED revision In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E4869@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.ed u> Message-ID: At 1/18/2012 06:49 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the >alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to >the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of >the alphabet. I didn't know that. Through which section of the grandstand is the crest of the OED wave moving at the moment? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 14:15:18 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:15:18 -0500 Subject: semi-antedating of "baby" = endearment Message-ID: OED 1869 (with a lone outlier in 1684 that isn't in direct address) 1862 (Jan. 8) in Henry M. Naglee _The Love Life of Brig. Gen. Henry M. Naglee_ [N.p.: pvtly. ptd., 1867] 119 [to his wife]: My own sweetest baby in all the world. ... Well, Baby, you know how much such uncertainty would annoy me. Naglee addresses his wife as "Baby" many times in these letters. I doubt that anyone has investigated this, but 19th C. exx. (before the ragtime era) seem uniformly to express tenderness. Later exx. are freq. extremely casual or sexually charged. Undoubtedly late 19th C. libertines addressed their sporting women as "baby" in a similarly perfunctory way, but the printed record appears to be silent on this. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 14:39:29 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:39:29 -0500 Subject: copyright 1864 Message-ID: At some point we mentioned the phenomenon of a book published late in one year misleadingly bearing a copyright date of the following year. Here's an example of the complementary phenomenon: _Thrilling Stories of the Great Rebellion...Together with an Account of the Death of President Lincoln; Fate of the Assassins; Capture of Jefferson Davis, and End of the War_, by Lieutenant-Colonel Charles S. Greene. "Entered in Accordance with the Act of Congress, in the Year 1864...." (Phila.: John E. Potter) Perhaps there was an earlier 1864 printing, which was updated with events of 1865. GB also shows copies with an 1865 title-page date. Some may recall a TV series called _Early Edition_ , in which a housecat regularly delivered a copy of the next day's paper to the hero's residence. This allowed him to "foretell" the future and save lives. Something similar may have occurred in Greene's case, but if so, he was unable to prevent a national tragedy. Such is the difference between fiction and real life. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Jan 18 14:50:09 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:50:09 +0000 Subject: Semitic terms Message-ID: I haven't had time yet to study the newly-found quotes, but I did happen upon one new (to me) fact. First let me recommend Martin F.J. Baasten "A Note on the History of 'Semitic'" that clarifies the passage (in German) from a tribal term also to a later linguistic term. That's in Hamlet on a Hill... [T. Muraoka Festschrift], Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta 118; Leuven: Peeters, 2003, 57-72. I just learned that in 1860 a form of the term anti-Semitic was used by the great bibliographer Moritz Steinschneider. Alex Bein wrote about it: http://books.google.com/books?id=cQOn0y8ENg4C&pg=PA593&lpg=PA593&dq=antisemitism+word+origin+%22Alex+Bein%22&source=bl&ots=-akNbxOti7&sig=M6LirUPJLSh4_Mt8LX6I_DeA-9g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sMQWT8zVBdGctweig_TzAg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Steinschneider was alleged (by Gershom Scholem; others may dispute it) as regarding his task to "provide the remnants of Judaism with a decent burial." Yet Steinschneider objected to Ernst Renan's writings on Judaism. One of Renan's quotations (paraphrased) is that Christianity is an Esseneism that survived. Then, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, such thoughts were debated, as *some* of the scrolls apparently are Essene compositions. (And, some of the scrolls, IMO, include the Hebrew source of the name Essene, a root recognized as such from at least 1532, in Germany, and by other scholars each following century.*) In the 1950s till today some scholars insist the scrolls have nothing to do with Essenes. A few say Essenes never existed. A. Dupont-Sommer coined (in French in the 1950s) the term Essenophobia. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson * some of the evidence given in "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts" http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 18 14:57:32 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:57:32 -0500 Subject: The OED revision In-Reply-To: <201201181245.q0ICjSGD028913@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 07:45:27AM -0500, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/18/2012 06:49 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >There are many really dated OED entries in the beginning of the > >alphabet, which is why it was a good decision of theirs to shift to > >the beginning of the alphabet before finishing up the latter part of > >the alphabet. > > I didn't know that. Through which section of the grandstand is the > crest of the OED wave moving at the moment? The most recent published batch contained entries at the beginning of "A": http://oed.com/public/simpson1211 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Jan 18 15:14:41 2012 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:14:41 -0600 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paul johnson Al Jazzbo Collins was a goateed man but at the time, (mid 50's) I'd always that the Jazzbo, referred to his bow ties On 1/18/2012 5:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Same thing. Looks like "soul patch" may be earlier. I always thought it was > merely body decoration, but this source suggests a practical side to it: a > facial cushion for trumpeters. > > "The soul patch was popularized by > jazzmusicians, beatniks and > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and > 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul patch, leading > the style to also be called a ?jazz dab? or ?jazz spot.? The style was > popular with trumpeters in particular as the hair provided a cushion > between sensitive skin and the trumpet?s mouthpiece." > > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-soul-patch.htm > > Eric > > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Eric Nielsen >> wrote: >>> jazz patch >> ny connection between this and "soul patch"? >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- The end justifies the meanness. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 17:07:30 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:07:30 -0500 Subject: cattery (also: "under foot") Message-ID: GAT wrote "There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic representative of the breed." Further adventures among the catteries shows that this idea is wrong. A cattery is so called to distinguish it from a doggery, which isn't so called. Certificates of the kitten's purity of birth are provided when a certificate is received from a vet that the kitten has been altered. Meanwhile, it seems that a term of art among managers of catteries is "under foot". They assert either on their website or in correspondence with me that their kittens are raised "under foot", meaning that they are not kept in cages but are free to roam the house. Saying raised "on the floor" might be a better way to express the idea, but anyway. GAT On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, George Thompson wrote: > > The OED has the following definition for "cattery": > An establishment of cats. > 1791 G. Huddesford *Monody Death Dick* in *Salmagundi > * 133 Enshrin'd celestial Cateries among, the sable Matron. > 1827 R. Southey *Select. Lett. > * (1856) IV. 171 All the royal Cattery of Cats' Eden. > *a*1843 R. Southey *Doctor > * (1847) VII. 587 An evil fortune attended all our attempts at > re-establishing a Cattery. > > > No doubt this entry was composed when Queen Victoria was hobbling about > the Palace with a walker, and there's been no pressing need to revise it > since. Still, the quotations are pretty baffling -- Zen, we would have > said, 50 years ago. > > Anyway, a current meaning of the word is an establishment where kittens > are bred for sale. Perhaps this is what Southey had in mind? > There may be a distinction in current use between a cattery and a breeder, > in that only a breeder would be able to give a certificate that the parents > of the kitten were pure-bred and registered and that their nuptials were > properly conducted. A cattery won't give this certificate and without one > the kitten will not be accepted by the Cat Lovers' Vatican as an authentic > representative of the breed. > > I've been corresponding with catteries that sell "Siberian Forest Cats". > If any of you have experience with this breed, I would like to know of it. > Off-list, of course. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 17:07:06 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:07:06 -0500 Subject: Databases: question about searching multiple full-text databases simultaneously Message-ID: On January 5th Bill Mullins posted a message about his ongoing efforts to compile and share a comprehensive list of full-text databases. Bill's work keeping track of these proliferating databases is marvelous. The organizations and individuals creating these repositories (which are often free to access) deserve high praise. The value of these archives would be enormously enhanced if they could be searched simultaneously through a single interface. Are there any projects with the goal of joint searchability for these small databases? The non-productive duplication of efforts makes progress much slower. The goals of a joint searchability project would include: 1) Algorithmic support for a flexible and expressive query language with wildcards. 2) High-quality optical character recognition and segmentation of text fields. 3) Standardized scanning methods and strategies to assure quality. 4) High-quality open-source and/or free software shared between multiple organizations. Using some of these databases is an exercise in frustration. Yet, even the most difficult to use databases reflect a substantial and praise-worthy effort to share information. Joint searchability would pragmatically unlock access to important resources. Garson On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: full text databases (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Starting several years ago, Mark Mandel has hosted a web page listing > full-text databases that I put together (thanks, Mark!). > > I finally got around to re-compiling it, and am using Google Sites to > host it. > > This group may find it useful. I'd appreciate any feedback offered, > comments, additions, suggestions, etc. It still needs a little > tweaking, but is at the 90% level of completion, I'd guess. > > It is mostly the old list, but with additions. I've found many more > student newspapers, for example. > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ > > > Let me know . . . > > Bill > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 18 17:13:48 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:13:48 -0600 Subject: FW: "shower of turkeys" (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE For some reason, when I replied to George's post below, it went only back to George. Trying again, for the whole list . . . . I'd imagine that this is at least somewhat inspired by the now-classic Thanksgiving episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati", in which Mr. Carlson (radio station owner) stages a promotion in which turkeys are given away by being dropped from a helicopter. It doesn't go well. Les Nessman (news reporter on scene) sounds like he is describing the Hindenburg disaster ("Oh the humanity!" "The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement!"). Carlson ends by saying "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly". (Wild turkeys can, BTW). For those who wish to watch: http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoafYtDe.html > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > George Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:24 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "shower of turkeys" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "shower of turkeys" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > From the NYTimes of today, January 17: an article on the disasterous > sinking of a cruise ship in the Mediterranean. > > > > =93But I=92d suspect that on a modern cruise liner like that he=92d be usin= > g > electronic charts,=94 Mr. Menzies said. To hit an uncharted rock =93nowaday= > s > that=92s unlikely, but it=92s possible,=94 he said. =93The other possibilit= > y is > that they were just a shower of turkeys =97 incompetent =97 on the bridge.= > =94 > > But the captain is king on his ship, Mr. Menzies said. =93The man on the > bridge decides everything.=94 > > > The Times identifies Mr. Menzies as the head of a British organization of > Master Mariners. > > > Turkeys certainly have an unfortunate image in popular speech. > > JGreen has a number of items beginning "shower of ...", but not "shower of > turkeys" -- he does have "shower of tom tits", which at least are birds. > He defines the general expression as an unimpressive group of people, > occasionally an individual. The "shower" here might refer to a group, > meaning all of the officers on the bridge, but, although Menzies uses a > plural pronoun -- "they were just a shower of turkeys" -- what he is quoted > in the next sentence as saying suggests he was thinking of just one man, > the captain. > > > For those of you who still don't believe you have read the newspaper unless > your fingers are dark with the ink, the story began on p. 1, but the > passage quoted was on p. 10, col. 2. > > > GAT > > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 17:50:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:50:21 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable In-Reply-To: <4F15C1FA.50000@gmail.com> Message-ID: I received a reply from Nigel Rees about the confusing citation with an apparent 1901 date. He said that 1901 was a misdating. So, currently the earliest known possible allusion to the quotation appeared in the 1910 letter from Hilaire Belloc. Nigel indicated that he had previously identified this reference in Belloc's letter. Great work! Thanks to Victor Steinbok for a response off-list. It does seem possible that "The Scotsman" could be a reference to the newspaper or a reference to an archetypal Scotsman. Similarly, "The Aberdonian" might be a reference to a periodical or an archetypal resident of Aberdeen. I haven't located any periodicals called "The Aberdonian". (There was a ship that used that name.) Garson > On 1/17/2012 12:36 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >> >> ... >> >> Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the >> Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, >> Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on >> paper) >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of >> sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed >> to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be >> often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men >> and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the >> position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is >> damnable." >> [End excerpt] >> ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 19:10:55 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:10:55 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople Message-ID: With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though without citations. While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this morning to make a snowman. The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. According to http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I watched it as Mr. Rogers was pass? then for my age group). Searching on that site reveals other snow people episodes. According to http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and usage skyrockets after that. For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" published in 1988 that talks about snow people (http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the spelling without the space. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Jan 18 20:07:06 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:07:06 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <9446A037-F120-46AD-906B-AD17BFD6A42A@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Snow figures are not necessarily sexless. Much depends on where the carrot is placed. GAT On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the > OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have > "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though > without citations. > > While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used > "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to > identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old > niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this > morning to make a snowman. > > The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. > > According to > http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister > Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I > watched it as Mr. Rogers was pass? then for my age group). Searching on > that site reveals other snow people episodes. > > According to > http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the > 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. > > The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and > usage skyrockets after that. > > For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" > published in 1988 that talks about snow people ( > http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The > chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the > spelling without the space. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 20:24:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:24:20 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201181911.q0IFxFeP007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. 1. 1843 A memoir of the life and writings of the late William Taylor of Norwich, Robert Southey, Sir Walter Scott (http://ow.ly/8yeIk) ----- But still such things are more easily produced than ' Madoc': a common magician can make snow-people, but flesh and blood must be the work of a Demiurgos. ----- 2. 1849 Whisperings from life's shore: a bright shell for children, S. W. L. (S. W. Landor) (http://ow.ly/8yfs2) ----- Do you know the little Snow people? ----- 3. 1850 or 1852 The Snow-Image by Nathaniel Hawthorne has "snow-people." It was written in 1852 according to Wikipedia (http://ow.ly/8yeiS). The citation below (http://ow.ly/8yetc) has a hyphen, but it's at the end of the line. The citation at http://ow.ly/8yezc has the hyphen in the middle of the page, and Google Books claims it's from 1850. ----- Warm milk will not be wholesome for our little snow-sister. Little snow-people, like her, eat nothing but icicles. ----- Like the use in the Frosty show and probably Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as below, however, these refer to fanciful snowpeople, not the mundane sort created by mere mortals on snowy days. I will save that for another snowy day (unless someone else is feeling snowily inclined to do so). Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 18, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though without citations. > > While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've used "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this morning to make a snowman. > > The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. > > According to http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I watched it as Mr. Rogers was pass? then for my age group). Searching on that site reveals other snow people episodes. > > According to http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. > > The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 and usage skyrockets after that. > > For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" published in 1988 that talks about snow people (http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the spelling without the space. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 20:27:09 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:27:09 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182007.q0IJkBt3007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Having trouble with that image :) No problem with calling them snowwomen or snowmen, but in general, it seems odd to call them snowmen. BTW, it seems like words like "snow dog" are an extension rather than actual nouns. BB On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:07 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Snow figures are not necessarily sexless. Much depends on where the carrot > is placed. > > GAT > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Benjamin Barrett wro= > te: > >> With Seattle under a huge blanket of snow (for Seattle), I turned to the >> OED to find out about snowpeople. Neither the OED nor the AHD have >> "snowperson." Wiktionary has it, along with snowman and snowwoman though >> without citations. >> >> While we don't see snowpeople on a yearly basis here in Seattle, I've use= > d >> "snowperson" for many years when applicable because it seems odd to >> identify sexless and female figures as men. I believe my twelve-year-old >> niece uses the word as well. My dog walker did, though, advise me this >> morning to make a snowman. >> >> The query ("snowperson" OR "snowpeople") gets 1.1 million raw Googits. >> >> According to >> http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/mrn/episodes/1245/index.html, Mister >> Rogers' Neighborhood introduced a Snow People opera in 1972 (not likely I >> watched it as Mr. Rogers was pass=E9 then for my age group). Searching on >> that site reveals other snow people episodes. >> >> According to >> http://christmas-specials.wikia.com/wiki/Frosty's_Winter_Wonderland, the >> 1976 "Frosty's Winter Wonderland" discusses snowpeople. >> >> The word does not get many hits until the period between 1995 and 2000 an= > d >> usage skyrockets after that. >> >> For ("snow person" OR "snow people"), there is a book "Snow Magic" >> published in 1988 that talks about snow people ( >> http://www.worldcat.org/title/snow-magic/oclc/018622345). The >> chronological use of this spelling patterns in a way similar to the >> spelling without the space. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 20:44:58 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 15:44:58 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182024.q0IJkB0X007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) VS-) On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 21:01:47 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:01:47 -0500 Subject: relipid Message-ID: Trying to devise etymology of trademarks is a fool's errand, but I noticed "relipid formula" in a recent Neosporin commercial and it left me scratching my head. While its use as a trademark may make sense, it is clearly meant to sound "scientific". The trouble start if you recognize what "lipid" is (as most high-school students taking biology, middle-school students and people with reasonable post-secondary education should). My back-of-the-envelope estimate suggests (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the prefix "re-" is productive mostly with verbs or derivatives of those verbs or derivatives of words that used to be verbs. Plus there is a handful of words that don't actually have "re-" as a prefix, but are derived directly from French or Latin (e.g., "replendishing", "resplandence", "resplendour")--where they might have had a prefix appended at some point but it is no longer transparent (and, in some cases, the prefix having only superficial similarity to "re-" in the early forms). "Relipid", as a neologism, does not fall into any of these categories, although the transparent "etymology" appears to be "restoring lipids to the skin" (the expression is associated with body lotions and eczema ointments). Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic grounds. http://goo.gl/cN30A VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jan 18 21:20:21 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:20:21 -0500 Subject: relipid In-Reply-To: <201201182102.q0IFxFES017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/18/2012 4:01 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: relipid > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Trying to devise etymology of trademarks is a fool's errand, but I > noticed "relipid formula" in a recent Neosporin commercial and it left > me scratching my head. While its use as a trademark may make sense, it > is clearly meant to sound "scientific". The trouble start if you > recognize what "lipid" is (as most high-school students taking biology, > middle-school students and people with reasonable post-secondary > education should). My back-of-the-envelope estimate suggests (and please > correct me if I am wrong) that the prefix "re-" is productive mostly > with verbs or derivatives of those verbs or derivatives of words that > used to be verbs. Plus there is a handful of words that don't actually > have "re-" as a prefix, but are derived directly from French or Latin > (e.g., "replendishing", "resplandence", "resplendour")--where they might > have had a prefix appended at some point but it is no longer transparent > (and, in some cases, the prefix having only superficial similarity to > "re-" in the early forms). "Relipid", as a neologism, does not fall into > any of these categories, although the transparent "etymology" appears to > be "restoring lipids to the skin" (the expression is associated with > body lotions and eczema ointments). > > Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although > there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic > grounds. > > http://goo.gl/cN30A -- "Relipidification" (for which the above might be an abbreviation) is used here and there. Presumably = "putting back the oil" or so (here, "moistening the skin" or so), from "lipidify" taken as "make oily" or so. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Jan 18 21:24:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 13:24:04 -0800 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182045.q0IFxFCE017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on ("snow people" OR "snowperson") with the dates set between 1800 and 1900 yields no hits on Google in general, but 339 hits in GB. BB On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest > "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that > are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. > On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are > associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits > on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as > clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among > the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. > Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have > their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at > all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is > usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have > not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these > outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also > note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as > Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home > page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) > > VS-) > > On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 18 21:43:12 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:43:12 -0500 Subject: Snowpeople In-Reply-To: <201201182127.q0IJkBJx007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was forced to deal with the extra-compositional meaning of "snowman" when I saw an episode of Blue's Clues years ago. At one point, Steve pointed to a clay sculpture consisting of two or three balls stacked with the largest on the bottom, the smallest on top, and a rudimentary face, and called it not a "clay man", but a snowman. Why am I ok with stone lions and paper tigers, but not clay snowmen? The stacked attributive nouns of material are too much for me. Neal On Jan 18, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Snowpeople > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Googling on > > ("snow people" OR "snowperson") > > with the dates set between 1800 and 1900 yields no hits on Google in general, but 339 hits in GB. > > BB > > On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> That's actually not true, unless Google changed it with their latest >> "update". The problem is that for frequently used words or those that >> are topheavy on recent hits will have GB hits buried deep in the pile. >> On the other hand, many words that went out of circulation or are >> associated with particular works often bring up one or several GB hits >> on the first page of matches. News are handled a bit differently, as >> clusters of news links usually show up on the first page, often among >> the top three--or not at all. Other Google products are not so lucky. >> Non-Google blogs show up in regular search items, but Google blogs have >> their own category. Images rarely, if ever, show up near the top--or at >> all, but Google and YouTube videos do appear, although the list is >> usually not as extensive as when you do a direct video search. I have >> not played with Google Scholar and other items enough to determine these >> outcomes--or did play with them, but many iterations of Google ago. Also >> note Google's peculiar form of SOPA protest--not in the same league as >> Reddit and Wiki, but noticeable if you do a search from the Google home >> page. (When you look at the results page, it's too small to be noticeable.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On 1/18/2012 3:24 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> I have a tendency to forget that Googling in general does not include Google Books. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 18 21:48:22 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:48:22 -0500 Subject: relipid In-Reply-To: <201201182121.q0IJkBDF007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course, there may be a good reason for Johnson&Johnson to shorten the name to the point of sounding like nonsense--they would want to avoid it being "merely descriptive", which they would not be able to trademark. And if they used an even moderately sensible phrase, their competitors would object to the trademark filing (it's cheap, by comparison). But, ultimately, what they mean by "relipid formula" is "moisturizer". VS-) On 1/18/2012 4:20 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > On 1/18/2012 4:01 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> ... >> Of course, "relipid formula" is already formally trademarked, although >> there is still plenty of time to object--on trademark, not on linguistic >> grounds. >> >> http://goo.gl/cN30A > -- > > "Relipidification" (for which the above might be an abbreviation) is > used here and there. Presumably = "putting back the oil" or so (here, > "moistening the skin" or so), from "lipidify" taken as "make oily" or so. > > -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 00:50:43 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 00:50:43 +0000 Subject: English articles have a happy bias In-Reply-To: <201201182148.q0IFxFRM030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A University of Vermont mathematician Peter Dodds led a team showing that the English language is biased toward being happy. http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-health-behavior/25425-Study-May-Less-Happy-But-Our-Language-Isnt.html Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 01:09:09 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:09:09 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? Message-ID: 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good scare is worth more than good advice." He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 19 01:23:33 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:23:33 -0500 Subject: Library Company of Philadelphia's Afro-Americana Collection Message-ID: From another list. JSB Readex will introduce a digital edition of the Library Company of Philadelphia's acclaimed Afro-Americana Collection this spring. Featuring more than 12,000 searchable books, pamphlets and broadsides, this new resource will stimulate fresh research on centuries of African American history, literature and life. Critically important subjects covered include the West's discovery and exploitation of Africa; the rise of slavery in the New World along with the growth and success of abolitionist movements; the development of racial thought and racism; descriptions of African American life--slave and free--throughout the Americas; and slavery and race in fiction and drama. Also featured are printed works of African American individuals and organizations. Further details appear on the Readex Blog: http://bit.ly/A1VkEe David G. Loiterstein Marketing Director Readex, A Division of NewsBank phone: 203.421.0152 e-mail: dloiterstein at readex.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 01:33:57 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:33:57 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190109.q0IJkBoN007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good > scare is worth more than good advice." > > He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? > > The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous > squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts again. Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 (for a close variant): "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:05:36 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:05:36 -0500 Subject: Headline: "Task: Avoid _Cooptation_ in Election Season" [NT] Message-ID: 1o -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:36:15 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:36:15 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? Message-ID: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 02:52:23 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 21:52:23 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190236.q0J1Kxsd007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bolling is an idiot so I would not put too much stock in his usage. He was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought "apologist" sounded good. VS-) On 1/18/2012 9:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 > > Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," > "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:03:47 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:03:47 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190134.q0J0I0bW030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting to take up most of my thinking time. JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >> scare is worth more than good advice." >> >> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >> >> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). > > Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a > suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts > again. > > Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 > (for a close variant): > > "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe > http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& > > A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:11:05 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:11:05 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190252.q0IFxFX0017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: True, but I've heard O called an "apologist" in recent weeks by others of the pundit class. (Who probably all know each other.) JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bolling is an idiot so I would not put too much stock in his usage. He > was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from > radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought > "apologist" sounded good. > > VS-) > > On 1/18/2012 9:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201201170004 >> >> Bolling: Obama Has Been The "_Apologist_ For America Overseas," >> "American Exceptionalism Is Embarrassing To Him" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 03:11:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 22:11:31 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190252.q0IFxFX0017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > He > was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from > radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought > "apologist" sounded good. Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could happen. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 04:06:46 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:06:46 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190312.q0J1KxwR007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are two unverified matches in 1999 in which former President Clinton was labeled an "apologist". The meaning seems to be "apologizer". The title of the article dated November 27, 1999 below uses the word. (Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would reject using "apologist" as a synonym for "apologizer".) The Washington Times : From the apologist in chief Washington Times - Nov 27, 1999 He just can't help himself. When Bill Clinton steps foot on foreign soil, he feels an urgent need to apologize for America's past "misdeeds. ... The Washington Times: Prelude to a new cold war? Washington Times - Jun 13, 1999 Even after several rounds of apologies by US Apologist-in-Chief Bill Clinton, Beijing's initial refusals to believe the bombings were not unintentional ... In 2004 a book titled "The apologist" by Jay Rayner was released. Here is a description. [Begin excerpt] Marc Bassett has a reputation as a pitiless restaurant critic. When he writes a devastating review of a particular establishment, the chef commits suicide, roasting himself in his own fan-assisted oven, with Basset's reviewed pasted to the door. Suddenly Bassett is moved to do something he has never done before: apologise. After a series of virtuoso expressions of regret, word of Bassett's mollifying power spreads, and he is invited to become Chief Apologist for the United Nations. His job is to travel the globe in his own Gulfstream V private jet, apologising for everything from colonialism to exploitation and slavery. It is a role that brings him fame, wealth and access to a lot of very good chocolate. [End excerpt] Here is a 2013 movie title that may be using apologist to mean apologizer. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1724600/ [Begin excerpt] The Apologist (2013) Drama Not yet released In an effort to fix his broken life, a depressed man seeks out the girl he humiliated in high school in order to make amends. [End excerpt] The first sense given for apologist in Wiktionary seems to allow apolgizer. Indeed, the term "apologizer" is given as a synonym for "apologist". (Note that I am citing Wikitionary as a sample of word use and not as a traditional "authority".) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apologist [Begin excerpt] Noun apologist (plural apologists) 1. One who makes an apology. 2. One who speaks or writes in defense of a faith, a cause, or an institution. Synonyms (one who makes an apology): apologizer, apologiser [End excerpt] It is possible that the Wikitionary definition was based on the Webster's 1913 definition. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828) http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=apologist&use1913=on [Begin excerpt] Apologist (Page: 69) A*pol"o*gist (#), n. [Cf. F. apologiste.] One who makes an apology; one who speaks or writes in defense of a faith, a cause, or an institution; especially, one who argues in defense of Christianity. [End excerpt] On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> He >> was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from >> radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought >> "apologist" sounded good. > > Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ > doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could > happen. > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 04:32:47 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:32:47 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190303.q0IFxFXA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > But how did Horace get the credit? Here is a hypothetical mechanism for the attributional shift to Horace. The names Howe and Horace are close with respect to alphabetical order. A compendium of quotations may have listed the quotation under investigation with an attribution to Edgar Watson Howe. But, the quotation immediately preceding Howe's words may have been credited to Horace. An inattentive transcriptionist may have incorrectly read the entry and attached the quotation to Horace instead of Howe. I have seen other examples of unusual attributions that seem to follow this pattern. > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. Progress on your opus understandably deserves precedence. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 03:43:33 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:43:33 -0800 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190312.q0J0I0ea030439@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> He >> was probably reflecting on Romney's claim (that had been adopted from >> radio talk shows) that Obama had gone on an Apology Tour and thought >> "apologist" sounded good. > > Precisely my own analysis. We probably should pray that _apologist_ > doesn't come to be understood as "one who makes an apology." It could > happen. I don't know if you actually prayed or not, but it's too late. 1. 1998 "The Apologist" by R.E.M. (http://ow.ly/8yB07) Lyrics (http://ow.ly/8yB07) ----- They call me the apologist And now that I'm at peak You know at first it really hurt We joke about these things I've skirted all my diferences But now I'm facing up I wanted to apologize for Everything I was. So I'm sorry ----- 2. "The Apologist" (http://www.apologist-movie.com/about.php) Playing in 2008 (http://www.apologist-movie.com/watch_the_film.php) ----- Joe is a serial apologist. Totally self-absorbed, he says "I'm sorry" so often, even he doesn't know what the words mean anymore?that is, until a female he tramples refuses his apology. Face to face with his own hypocrisy, he learns just how powerful sincerity can be. ----- I'm sure baker's dozens of other examples can be found. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 06:09:54 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:09:54 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201190406.q0IFxFaU017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would reject using "apologist" as a synonym for > "apologizer". Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. Prescriptivism sucks! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 07:41:24 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:41:24 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201190303.q0IFxFXA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice This quote was printed in several newspapers in 1899. The earliest cite I have found so far was dated March 25 and it acknowledged the Atchison Globe newspaper. The full title of the 1911 citation given earlier was "Country Town Sayings: A Collection of Paragraphs from the Atchison Globe" by E. W. Howe. So the earliest cites suggest an initial appearance in the Atchison Globe. Cite: 1899 March 25, Hutchinson Daily News [Hutchinson News], [Paragraph length advertisements interleaved with short quotations], Page 3, Column 1, Hutchinson, Kansas. (NewspaperArchive) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice.-Atchison Globe. [End excerpt] Howe was often credited across the decades, but it not clear to me if he crafted the saying or simply compiled it. Here are some variant phrasings for the adage. Cite: 1906 January 30, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Quaker Reflections, Page 4, Column 3, Fort Worth, Texas. (Genealogybank) [Begin excerpt] Good advice won't profit a man half so much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1906 May 20, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM4, Column 3, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Good advice seldom profits a man as much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1911 December 17, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM6, Column 4, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is often efficacious where good advice fails. [End excerpt] Cite: 1912 March 8, Washington Post, Pointed Paragraphs: From the Chicago News, Page 6, Column 6, Washington D.C. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is of more benefit to some men than good advice. [End excerpt] Here is an attribution to Howe a few decades later. Cite: 1947 October 20, Time, THE NATIONS: Prophylaxis, Time, Inc., New York. (Online Time magazine archive) http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,804311,00.html [Begin excerpt] As Ed Howe used to say: "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice." [End excerpt] The adage was ascribed to Horace by 2003. A bit late. Cite: 2003 September 1, Sun-Sentinel, Section: Your Business, A Bit of Humility Won't Hurt by Joyce Lain Kennedy, Page 8, Broward, Florida. (NewsBank) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more than good advice, sayeth Horace, an Italian poet of antiquity. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? > > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. > > JL > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >>> scare is worth more than good advice." >>> >>> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >>> >>> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >>> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). >> >> Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a >> suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts >> again. >> >> Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 >> (for a close variant): >> >> "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe >> http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& >> >> A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 08:39:49 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 03:39:49 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201181124.q0I4WdVL028819@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Eric Nielsen quoted: > "The soul patch was popularized by jazz musicians, beatniks and > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul > patch, leading the style to also be called a jazz dab or jazz spot. The style was popular with trumpeters in > particular as the hair provided a cushion between sensitive skin and the trumpet's mouthpiece." "? thus its name." This makes it appear that "soul patch" dates to that era, which is not so. As for "popular with trumpeters in particular," name one other than Dizzy, who wore that tuft of hair for the same reason that I still wear it. It's the style for us black guys of a certain age. "Sensitive skin"? No. Trumpeters don't try to avoid pain any more than, e.g. bassists try to avoid pain in their fingertips or saxophonists and clarinetists try to avoid pain in the mucus membrane of their lower lips. The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for the casual reader. Dizzy was famous for the expansion of his cheeks and the popularity of be-bop glasses and the be-bop tam were attributed to him, back in the '50's heyday of be-bop. No mention was ever made of his facial hair because we colored fellows all wore this patch of hair and had been, since at least the '40's. But it didn't have a special name. is there any indication that this bit of facial hair had a special name even as far back as the lifetime of a famous white wearer of this style, the late-great Frank Zappa? I probably should clarify that my problem is with the pretense that the terms, "soul patch / jazz patch / jazz dab" or whatever are authentic jazz and/or BE terms dating back to the days of be-bop, is a style popularized among the polloi by Dizzy or some other jazz musician, and that the style once had a practical use. FWIW, "jazz patch / dab" was unknown to me before now and I've never heard "soul patch" spoken by anyone. GBooks has "jazz patch" from 1947 in TIME. It's used as "cotton patch" is used. It's where jazz metaphorically "grows" and not a style of facial hair. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Thu Jan 19 11:06:20 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:06:20 +0000 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It (the version nearest below) appeared in the Atchison {KS] Daily Globe, March 23, 1899; pg. 2; Issue 6,654; col C (19th century newspapers), article title, "Globe Sights" Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Garson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:41 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] bogus Horatian quote? A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice This quote was printed in several newspapers in 1899. The earliest cite I have found so far was dated March 25 and it acknowledged the Atchison Globe newspaper. The full title of the 1911 citation given earlier was "Country Town Sayings: A Collection of Paragraphs from the Atchison Globe" by E. W. Howe. So the earliest cites suggest an initial appearance in the Atchison Globe. Cite: 1899 March 25, Hutchinson Daily News [Hutchinson News], [Paragraph length advertisements interleaved with short quotations], Page 3, Column 1, Hutchinson, Kansas. (NewspaperArchive) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice.-Atchison Globe. [End excerpt] Howe was often credited across the decades, but it not clear to me if he crafted the saying or simply compiled it. Here are some variant phrasings for the adage. Cite: 1906 January 30, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Quaker Reflections, Page 4, Column 3, Fort Worth, Texas. (Genealogybank) [Begin excerpt] Good advice won't profit a man half so much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1906 May 20, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM4, Column 3, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Good advice seldom profits a man as much as a good scare. [End excerpt] Cite: 1911 December 17, New York Times, Musings of the Gentle Cynic, Page SM6, Column 4, New York. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is often efficacious where good advice fails. [End excerpt] Cite: 1912 March 8, Washington Post, Pointed Paragraphs: From the Chicago News, Page 6, Column 6, Washington D.C. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is of more benefit to some men than good advice. [End excerpt] Here is an attribution to Howe a few decades later. Cite: 1947 October 20, Time, THE NATIONS: Prophylaxis, Time, Inc., New York. (Online Time magazine archive) http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,804311,00.html [Begin excerpt] As Ed Howe used to say: "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice." [End excerpt] The adage was ascribed to Horace by 2003. A bit late. Cite: 2003 September 1, Sun-Sentinel, Section: Your Business, A Bit of Humility Won't Hurt by Joyce Lain Kennedy, Page 8, Broward, Florida. (NewsBank) [Begin excerpt] A good scare is worth more than good advice, sayeth Horace, an Italian poet of antiquity. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great sleuthing, G-man! But how did Horace get the credit? > > It's good to be back. The mysteries of war in literature are starting > to take up most of my thinking time. > > JL > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: bogus Horatian quote? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> 86,000 websites claim that the Roman poet Horace once said, "A good >>> scare is worth more than good advice." >>> >>> He may have said it, but I doubt he wrote it down. Origin? >>> >>> The earliest appearance I find is in the form of a humorous, anonymous >>> squib on p. 1 of the Frederick, Md., _News_ (Oct. 6, 1953). >> >> Thanks Jonathan for sharing this interesting quotation with a >> suspicious attribution. And welcome back! Great to see your posts >> again. >> >> Quick preliminary search says credit goes to Edgar Watson Howe by 1911 >> (for a close variant): >> >> "Country Town Sayings" by E. W. Howe >> http://books.google.com/books?id=6KAfAQAAMAAJ&q=scare#v=snippet& >> >> A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 19 14:21:17 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 09:21:17 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/19/2012 01:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would > reject using "apologist" as a synonym for > > "apologizer". > >Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against >Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a >language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. > >Prescriptivism sucks! The OED's definition of "apologist" is, in toto: "One who apologizes for, or defends by argument; a professed literary champion." I think they were right in moving to the A's! :-) The absence of an object for the preposition "for" (if not also for the "by") leaves unstated what it is that an apologist is apologizing for. So could it not mean the same as "apologizer"? And I note under "apologizer" the complete definition is "One who apologizes (in modern usage for a fault or offence; in early use = apologist n.)." Also, here the object of the "for" is stated. Joel Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 16:00:10 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:00:10 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201191421.q0J4XDDg022047@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >the meaning of a word in a language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. Gray's Law. JL On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:21 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/19/2012 01:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> > Of course, many individuals concerned with verbal precision would >> reject using "apologist" as a synonym for >> > "apologizer". >> >>Clearly, such individuals are fighting a losing battle against >>Tweedles both -Dum and -Dee. After all, the meaning of a word in a >>language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. >> >>Prescriptivism sucks! > > The OED's definition of "apologist" is, in toto: "One who apologizes > for, or defends by argument; a professed literary champion." > > I think they were right in moving to the A's! :-) The absence of an > object for the preposition "for" (if not also for the "by") leaves > unstated what it is that an apologist is apologizing for. So could > it not mean the same as "apologizer"? And I note under "apologizer" > the complete definition is "One who apologizes (in modern usage for a > fault or offence; in early use = apologist n.)." Also, here the > object of the "for" is stated. > > Joel > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 19 16:55:41 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:55:41 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer Message-ID: Found recently: Religious leaders, not surprisingly, are very active apologists. In recent years Pope John Paul II has asked forgiveness for his church's violence during the 16th-century Counter-Reformation, for complicity in the African slave trade and for abuses committed by Christian colonizers against Indian peoples. "SAY YOU'RE SORRY; CLEANSE YOURSELF THIS MILLENNIUM; BRITAIN IS DOING IT," an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Nexis), June 8, 1997, p E-2 It's a start, but it's not enough. The apologies tendered by Bill Clinton for the Tuskegee experiments and Tony Blair for the Irish famine only point up the need for volunteer apologists to aid in this great work. Florence King, "APOLOGIZER BUNNY SHIFTS INTO OVERDRIVE," a commentary in the Richmond Times Dispatch (Nexis), August 17, 1997, p F-5 [AN unimpeachable source informs us that the latest rage in Washington is to take a course in apology-training. ''Politics,'' he explained, ''is having to say you're sorry.'' ''Whatever became of assertiveness-training?'' we asked him. . ''Postive? You want positive?'' our source said. ''How about the ploy of 'the one teeny little mistake'? You know, where the apologist says in effect, 'With all the things I'm doing right, maybe I'm entitled....''' ''Or perhaps you can say, 'I take full responsibility' - without saying for what,'' we proposed. Melvin Moddocks, "The new wisdom: always apologize, always explain," Christian Science Monitor (Nexis), March 13, 1987, p 23] I also saw two definitions in _Wikidictionary_. So, I guess it's here to stay, at least for a while. David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 17:00:36 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:00:36 -0500 Subject: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable In-Reply-To: <201201181750.q0IFxFMv007783@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson, since the 1946 quotation appeared in an American publication, presumably by an American author, my impression is that an "archetypal Scotsman" was intended rather than the paper of that name, with which few Americans would have been familiar. Perhaps more weight should go to the question of whether such an assertion would have been "characteristic" of _The Scotsman_ (or might have been thought to be). My guess is it wouldn't. JL On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Quote: The pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, > and the expense damnable > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I received a reply from Nigel Rees about the confusing citation with > an apparent 1901 date. He said that 1901 was a misdating. So, > currently the earliest known possible allusion to the quotation > appeared in the 1910 letter from Hilaire Belloc. Nigel indicated that > he had previously identified this reference in Belloc's letter. Great > work! > > Thanks to Victor Steinbok for a response off-list. It does seem > possible that "The Scotsman" could be a reference to the newspaper or > a reference to an archetypal Scotsman. Similarly, "The Aberdonian" > might be a reference to a periodical or an archetypal resident of > Aberdeen. I haven't located any periodicals called "The Aberdonian". > (There was a ship that used that name.) > > Garson > >> On 1/17/2012 12:36 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Cite: 1946 April, The Urologic and Cutaneous Review, Syphilis and the >>> Wassermann Reaction by William G. Richards, Page 208, Number 4, >>> Urologic and Cutaneous Press, West Palm Beach, Florida. (Verified on >>> paper) >>> >>> [Begin excerpt] >>> And nothing seems to give greater satisfaction than a recounting of >>> sexual irregularities. Of course the sexual function has always seemed >>> to have something humorous about it, and though this humor may be >>> often coarse and vulgar it yet occasions much amusement to both men >>> and women. The Scotsman characteristically summed it up, that "the >>> position is ridiculous, the pleasure is momentary, and the expense is >>> damnable." >>> [End excerpt] >>> ... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 17:52:12 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:52:12 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201191106.q0J4XDFu032295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen Goranson wrote: > It (the version nearest below) appeared in the Atchison {KS] Daily Globe, > March 23, 1899; pg. 2; Issue 6,654; col C (19th century newspapers), > article title, "Globe Sights" Great. Thanks Stephen! The saying moved from Atchison, Kansas on March 23 to Hutchinson, Kansas on March 25. This appearance in the Atchison Daily Globe might be the first. "A good scare is worth more to a man than good advice" is listed in the online Oxford Dictionary of American Quotations with credit to Edgar Watson Howe in Country Town Sayings (1911). The saying is also listed in A Dictionary of American Proverbs (1992) by Wolfgang Mieder, Stewart A. Kingsbury, Kelsie B. Harder. They also cite Country Town Sayings (1911). The adage is not directly attributed to any individual in 1899, but the page header in Country Town Sayings (1911) says "Paragraphs By E. W. Howe". A paragrapher is "a person who writes very short pieces or fillers for a newspaper" according to the online Random House Dictionary. So Howe was probably the paragrapher for the Atchison Daily Globe in 1899. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 18:49:37 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:49:37 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191655.q0JG7ZIn009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suspect, most people would have trouble differentiating between "apology" and "apologia". Some dictionaries are having similar difficulties. There may be a bit of recency fallacy here as well--the earliest uses may well relate to "apology" and be synonymous with "apologist", then it all changed in mid-19th century. The recent wave of apology-based apologists has been quite independent of the original. I can't say I really blame them--at least, no more so than I blame people for learning the reversed negation idioms and never question them. On the other hand, Bolling is still an idiot and what I said about his usage still holds. VS-) On 1/19/2012 11:55 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > Found recently: > > > > Religious leaders, not surprisingly, are very active apologists. In recent > years Pope John Paul II has asked forgiveness for his church's violence > during the 16th-century Counter-Reformation, for complicity in the African > slave trade and for abuses committed by Christian colonizers against Indian > peoples. "SAY YOU'RE SORRY; CLEANSE YOURSELF THIS MILLENNIUM; BRITAIN IS > DOING IT," an editorial in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Nexis), June 8, > 1997, p E-2 > > > > It's a start, but it's not enough. The apologies tendered by Bill Clinton > for the Tuskegee experiments and Tony Blair for the Irish famine only point > up the need for volunteer apologists to aid in this great work. Florence > King, "APOLOGIZER BUNNY SHIFTS INTO OVERDRIVE," a commentary in the Richmond > Times Dispatch (Nexis), August 17, 1997, p F-5 > > > > [AN unimpeachable source informs us that the latest rage in Washington is to > take a course in apology-training. > > ''Politics,'' he explained, ''is having to say you're sorry.'' > > ''Whatever became of assertiveness-training?'' we asked him. . > > ''Postive? You want positive?'' our source said. ''How about the ploy of > 'the one teeny little mistake'? You know, where the apologist says in > effect, 'With all the things I'm doing right, maybe I'm entitled....''' > > ''Or perhaps you can say, 'I take full responsibility' - without saying for > what,'' we proposed. > > Melvin Moddocks, "The new wisdom: always apologize, always explain," > Christian Science Monitor (Nexis), March 13, 1987, p 23] > > > > I also saw two definitions in _Wikidictionary_. So, I guess it's here to > stay, at least for a while. > > > > David ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ly2yr at QRZ.LT Thu Jan 19 18:43:26 2012 From: ly2yr at QRZ.LT (Gint Gaidamas) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 20:43:26 +0200 Subject: Slang 'Ham' Message-ID: Hello, I have a question if anyone can explain the origin of the sports slang HAM? Why is it written in Capital letters? Plese see links: Spoting slang http://books.google.lt/books?ei=MZsBT4-CBsjP8gPns53hDw&hl=lt&id=RTdcQOlzjXAC&dq=of+New+York+for+a+second-rate+dude+or+masher%2C+and+more+especially+applied+to+the+habitues+of+the+Rialto+in+that+city.+...&q=ham http://books.google.lt/books?ei=R-8BT5u-IJHu8QPqqN3SBA&hl=lt&id=QfBZAAAAMAAJ&dq=ham-fatter++ham+sporting+slang&q=hamfatters+ham Origin by William H. Nugent http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury-1929mar-00329?View=PDF Slang of the stage http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82014381/1881-03-19/ed-1/seq-3/;words=Actors+ham?date1=1870&rows=20&searchType=advanced&proxdistance=5&date2=1885&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=ham+actor&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=1 Origin of Ham-fatter http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00713FF3C5511738DDDAC0894DB405B8384F0D3&scp=1&sq=ham%20fat%20man&st=cse Best regards, Gint ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:08:06 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:08:06 -0500 Subject: mythical Message-ID: Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). > He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the > books from former campaign staff. "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. The closest OED comes to it is #4. > 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the > basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better substitute here? VS--) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kenhirsch at FTML.NET Thu Jan 19 19:25:10 2012 From: kenhirsch at FTML.NET (Ken Hirsch) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:25:10 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to this AP obit (http://goo.gl/fxZsS ), Howe "founded the Atchison Globe in 1877 and retired from it 37 years later." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:43:17 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:43:17 -0500 Subject: bogus Horatian quote? In-Reply-To: <201201191925.q0JG7ZYV009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ken Hirsch wrote: > According to this AP obit (http://goo.gl/fxZsS ), Howe "founded the > Atchison Globe in 1877 and retired from it 37 years later." Nice work. Many thanks for this cite, Ken. Apparently Howe was founder, philosopher, paragrapher, chief cook, and bottle washer at the Atchison Globe. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 19:48:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 11:48:30 -0800 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201191908.q0JG7ZWn009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news > has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have > been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). > >> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >> books from former campaign staff. > > "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. > > The closest OED comes to it is #4. > >> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. > > Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was > the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or > is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better > substitute here? > > VS--) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 19:52:07 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:52:07 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191849.q0JG7ZTl009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe *Plato's Apology* is more commonly heard than *Plato's Apologia, *and many people expect Socrates to say he's sorry.* *I know that's I was thinking when I first opened it's covers in high school. Eric On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > > I suspect, most people would have trouble differentiating between > "apology" and "apologia". > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 19 20:30:33 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:30:33 -0800 Subject: DARE Celebration in Madison May 4 Message-ID: (This is also a post on the ADS website.) >From Joan Hall, the chief editor of the Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE), a project supported by the American Dialect Society: To celebrate the publication of Volume V of DARE (Sl-Z) and the upcoming launch of the digital edition (2013), we are having a party in Madison on May 4, 2012, from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. All ADS members (and like-minded language-lovers) are cordially invited. And if you can come a day early, we hope you will join us May 3rd from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. for a mini-conference on DARE and American dictionaries. Our speakers will be Erin McKean, Michael Adams, and Simon Winchester. A block of rooms has been reserved at The Campus Inn 601 Langdon Street Madison, WI 53703 http://goo.gl/qWfwD Toll-free number: 800-589-6285 Group Number: 118573 Group Name: DARE Deadline for group rate: April 2, 2012 We hope to see you! Joan Houston Hall Chief Editor, DARE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jan 19 20:52:06 2012 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 12:52:06 -0800 Subject: Important DARE survey: your input is needed Message-ID: Also from the folks at the Dictionary of American Regional English: Please also take a few moments to fill out this survey about how you currently use DARE. The DARE publishing program has so far produced four of the planned six volumes. Alongside the continuing print program, we are about to commence work on publishing the full DARE database as an online reference resource. As we plan this website, we would welcome your input on how DARE should be presented and used online. DARE Online is scheduled for launch in 2013. http://americandialect.org/DARE-ADS-Questionnaire.pdf Completed surveys should be sent to: Emily Arkin Harvard University Press 79 Garden Street Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 USA emily_arkin at harvard.edu Posted by: Grant Barrett American Dialect Society Vice President of Communications and Technology http://www.americandialect.org grantbarrett at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 21:30:13 2012 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:30:13 -0500 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201190840.q0J4XDDD000469@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't ever remember hearing any particular name for that dab of hair until the last fifteen years or so. It has certainly become popular now--as a search in Google Images will show. You were in the avant garde. My first experience with it was with the Maynard G. Krebs character in the "Dobie Gillis" series I watched as a kid. I guess people just had to start naming it. That business about it being an aid to trumpeters is all over the web. I would have found it on Wikipedia, yesterday, had it not been for the blackout. The Wikipedia article for "soul patch" did have a reference to a book on Dizzy Gillespie, but I couldn't check it out any further because the copy on Google Books was incomplete. I would assume the "patch" would be recommended in trumpet books and encouraged in music schools. After a Google Images search of Wynton Marsalis, I found he had a "jazz/soul patch" in the early 80s that was a nice counterpoint to the moustache he sported, http://allynscura.blogspot.com/search/label/Wynton%20Marsalis but later photos show him to be clean shaven. Apparently, a musician of his high caliber( in both Jazz and Classical music) didn't find it a help for his technique or he'd still have one. I never realized this beard style has been around as long as you say, Wilson. Eric On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Eric Nielsen > quoted: > > "The soul patch was popularized by jazz < > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-jazz.htm> musicians, beatniks and > > other artistic or rebellious men in the 1950s and 60s, thus its name. > Jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie had a soul > patch, leading the style to > also be called a jazz dab or jazz spot. The style was popular with > trumpeters in > particular as the hair provided a cushion between > sensitive skin and the trumpet's mouthpiece." > > "? thus its name." > > This makes it appear that "soul patch" dates to that era, which is not > so. As for "popular with trumpeters in particular," name one other > than Dizzy, who wore that tuft of hair for the same reason that I > still wear it. It's the style for us black guys of a certain age. > "Sensitive skin"? No. Trumpeters don't try to avoid pain any more > than, e.g. bassists try to avoid pain in their fingertips or > saxophonists and clarinetists try to avoid pain in the mucus membrane > of their lower lips. > > The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, > although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last > year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for > the casual reader. > > Dizzy was famous for the expansion of his cheeks and the popularity of > be-bop glasses and the be-bop tam were attributed to him, back in the > '50's heyday of be-bop. No mention was ever made of his facial hair > because we colored fellows all wore this patch of hair and had been, > since at least the '40's. But it didn't have a special name. is there > any indication that this bit of facial hair had a special name even as > far back as the lifetime of a famous white wearer of this style, the > late-great Frank Zappa? > > I probably should clarify that my problem is with the pretense that > the terms, "soul patch / jazz patch / jazz dab" or whatever are > authentic jazz and/or BE terms dating back to the days of be-bop, is a > style popularized among the polloi by Dizzy or some other jazz > musician, and that the style once had a practical use. > > FWIW, "jazz patch / dab" was unknown to me before now and I've never > heard "soul patch" spoken by anyone. GBooks has "jazz patch" from > 1947 in TIME. It's used as "cotton patch" is used. It's where jazz > metaphorically "grows" and not a style of facial hair. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Thu Jan 19 21:46:40 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:46:40 -0500 Subject: Has the meaning of _apologist_ changed? In-Reply-To: <201201191600.q0J4XDbU032295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: language is controlled by the Yahoos among its speakers. However, language is an evolving phenomenon and it the masses that control the evolution. Dan Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 22:06:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:06:18 -0500 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201191948.q0JG7Zta015980@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Epic is the word I was looking for but got a brain fart. VS-) On 1/19/2012 2:48 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news >> has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have >> been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). >> >>> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >>> books from former campaign staff. >> "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. >> >> The closest OED comes to it is #4. >> >>> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >>> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. >> Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was >> the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or >> is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better >> substitute here? >> >> VS--) > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 19 22:08:07 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:08:07 -0500 Subject: apologist/apologizer In-Reply-To: <201201191952.q0JG7Zti015980@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If standard sources are to be believed, "apologist" took off as someone involved in Christian "apologia". But, as you know, dictionaries can be wrong with historical facts. VS-) On 1/19/2012 2:52 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I believe *Plato's Apology* is more commonly heard than *Plato's Apologia, *and > many people > expect Socrates to say he's sorry.* *I know that's I was thinking when I > first opened it's covers in high school. > > Eric ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jan 19 22:16:51 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:16:51 -0800 Subject: mythical In-Reply-To: <201201192206.q0JG7Zpr009687@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it was of _________ proportions.... On Jan 19, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Epic is the word I was looking for but got a brain fart. > > VS-) > > On 1/19/2012 2:48 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> It sounds like "epic" or "classic" would work. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> Rick Perry is finally quitting his presidential campaign today. The news >>> has prompted comments such as this one (actually, these comments have >>> been popping up for the past two months, and not just about Perry). >>> >>>> He had a downright mythical flameout. I seriously look forward to the >>>> books from former campaign staff. >>> "Mythical" seems to be the wrong word here. But I've seen this usage before. >>> >>> The closest OED comes to it is #4. >>> >>>> 4. That has acquired an idealized or exaggerated reputation on the >>>> basis of popular rumour. Cf. mythic adj. 2. >>> Except that it's really not the same--it's more of an opposite. It was >>> the stuff of legends. Which is why we sometimes call it "legendary". Or >>> is "legendary" reserved for positive accomplishments? Is there a better >>> substitute here? >>> >>> VS--) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 20 01:19:21 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:19:21 +0200 Subject: Query: "Jazbo on upper lip" (1915) In-Reply-To: <201201190840.q0J4XDDD000469@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > The first fifteen pages of GBooks take "soul patch" back only to 1999, > although, IME. it's certainly older than that. As recently as last > year, authors were still feeling that the term had to be defined for > the casual reader. When we talked about "soul patch" back in '05, Bill Mullins posted a cite from 1986 (which is now in the OED): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0506C&L=ADS-L&P=R9994&I=-3 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 20 04:00:39 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:00:39 -0500 Subject: "Bristol fashion", 1803; antedates 1839 (s.v. "ship-shape") & 1840 Message-ID: "My box of diamonds," says I to the girl, "this is neither ship-shape, nor Bristol fashion." John Davis, Travels of four years and a half in the United States of America: during 1798, 1799, 1800, 1801, and 1802. London, Sold by T. Ostell for R. Edwards, Printer, Bristol, [Eng.] 1803. Page 427. Google Books. GBooks has additional quotations perhaps from 1827, 1832 (one being Sir Walter Scott), through 1838. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Jan 20 11:57:09 2012 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:57:09 -0200 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201190050.q0IFxFTA017801@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister would choose an Italian ship. 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said Churchill. 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. Second, their service is superb. And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.'" DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Jan 20 12:19:17 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:19:17 +0000 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <000001ccd76a$a4dfb010$ee9f1030$@com> Message-ID: Related, though not Churchill: Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . ?Sarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister would choose an Italian ship. 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said Churchill. 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. Second, their service is superb. And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.'" DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Jan 20 16:02:14 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:02:14 -0500 Subject: Q: A newspaper correspondent reporting deaths Message-ID: What would one today call an 18th-century local correspondent who reported deaths to a big-city newspaper? "Obituary correspondent"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 20 17:04:50 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:04:50 -0500 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201201219.q0K4WhKN019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for raising this interesting question, David. Excellent cite, Stephen. Here is a version of the less elaborate joke in 1917. Cite: 1917 September 13, Kansas City Star, Diving for French Verbs: Henry J. Allen Finds Language as Exciting as War, Page 4, Column 2, Kansas City, Missouri. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] When we reached the outside our trouble began. There were some thirty or forty women from the train and as we watched the scramble for the very small number of taxicabs and 1-horse vehicles we were reminded of the reason a New York traveler once gave for traveling on a French liner: He said, "there is no foolishness about women and children first." [End excerpt] Google News archive has a Noel Coward attributed version in Miami News of December 9, 1948. Google Books has matches with GB dates in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and more for the simple variant of the joke. Bartlett's Book of Anecdotes (2000) has a Somerset Maugham version. Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations (2008) does not appear to have a match; Not even in the apocrypha sections. Here is some extracted text from a book with an unverified Google Books date of 1993 that presents the more elaborate anecdote attached to Churchill. Title: More podium humor: using wit and humor in every speech you make Author: James C. Humes Year: 1993 Length: 244 pages [Begin extracted text] A journalist from a Rome newspaper cornered the former prime minister to ask him why he chose to travel on an Italian line when the stately Queen's line under the British flag was available. Churchill gave the question his consideration and then gravely replied, "There are three THINGS I LIKE ABOUT ITALIAN SHIPS. FIRST, THEIR CUISINE, WHICH IS UNSURPASSED. SECOND, THEIR SERVICE, WHICH IS quite superb." And then Sir Winston added, "And then, in TIME OF EMERGENCY, THERE IS NONE OF THIS NONSENSE ABOUT WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST." (But seriously, the needs of the family must come first. [End extracted text] I will try to add to this quick incomplete search later when I have some time. Garson On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Churchill? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Related, though not Churchill: > > Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." > > I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . > ?Sarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 > > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? > > This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really > Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? > > "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. > After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise > liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister > would choose an Italian ship. > 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said > Churchill. > 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. > Second, their service is superb. > And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about > women and children first.'" > > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 20 17:10:01 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:10:01 -0500 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131716.p7CMKcvv022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: More on the history of pearl-clutching: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/01/pearl_clutching_how_the_phrase_became_a_feminist_blog_clich_.html On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > >> > >> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, > >> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these > >> things are just lists of words and phrases. > >> > >> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), > >> Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and > >> the accompanying gesture) in this community. > >> > >> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. > > Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 > from NewsBank Access World News: > > WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' > The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 > Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record > > Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to > describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many > creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. > Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a > sneaky thing to do." -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 20 17:42:30 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:42:30 -0800 Subject: Beta Message-ID: The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 20 18:57:29 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:57:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Beta Message-ID: There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta blocker", another adjectival use). LH Begin forwarded message: > From: Benjamin Barrett > Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Beta > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). > > If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Jan 20 19:24:04 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:24:04 -0800 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <201201201857.q0KFhRUL019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quickly checking on Google, I found beta with eater, drinker and taster. "Beta cook" is also found, used as opposed to "alpha cook" like "beta male." BB On Jan 20, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 = > campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta = > blocker", another adjectival use). > > LH > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Benjamin Barrett >> Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Beta >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> =20 >> The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but = > today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia = > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). >> =20 >> If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is = > transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. >> =20 >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jan 20 20:10:44 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:10:44 +0000 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <0AF8983E-C1DF-4F91-9938-A7FBD9C556B6@yale.edu> Message-ID: I see that the OED is missing the investments meaning of beta, where the beta of a stock or portfolio is a number describing the relation of its returns with those of the financial market as a whole. This is a fundamental concept of contemporary investments theory and practice. Beta may be contrasted with alpha (also missing from the OED), which is a risk-adjusted measure of the so-called active return on an investment. I'm not sure if these terms were originated (or popularized) by the work of Harry Markowitz in the 1950s or that of Jack Treynor and others in formulating the capital asset pricing model in the early 1960s. They have been in wide use, within the financial community, for decades. Wikipedia has articles on alpha (finance) and beta (finance). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:57 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fwd: Beta There was also "beta male", as applied to Al Gore during the 2000 campaign, but that was different (although, unlike _beta_ in "beta blocker", another adjectival use). LH Begin forwarded message: > From: Benjamin Barrett > Date: January 20, 2012 12:42:30 PM EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Beta > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > The OED has draft additions for beta tester and beta customer, but today I encountered beta reader, which even has an article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_reader). > > If this use of beta hasn't spread to other uses, this meaning is transparent enough to do so. Perhaps an adjective meaning is called for. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 01:19:01 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:19:01 -0500 Subject: Jewish Problem In-Reply-To: <201201171515.q0HFFS8D025568@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Arnold Zwicky > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Jewish Problem > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 17, 2012, at 2:37 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> The term "Jewish Problem", with its entire baggage, is missing from the >> OED. There are three quotations that mention it--one under "in-and-out" >> and under "problem", from H. G. Wells; the other two appear under Jewish 1. >> >> ... I am rather disappointed that these two found their way into this >> particular entry rather than creating a separate "Jewish problem" entry >> on their own. In these cases, "Jewish" is not "characteristic of the >> Jews", but is rather characteristics of people who have a "problem" >> /with/ the Jews. This meaning of the "Jewish problem" cannot be >> extrapolated from the constituent words. In fact, the only way one can >> describe the "Jewish problem" as being "characteristic of the Jews" is >> if Jews are taken as the root cause of the problem (compare, for >> example, to the "rat problem"). In fact, the term has generated a >> snowclonelet that addresses the "problem" with some specific ethnic, >> racial, or other group and is usually used either by those who perceive >> such a "problem" or, mockingly, by their opponents and critics. Similar >> phrasing might have been available before WWII, but it certainly >> snowballed after. >> >> In this context, the Wells citation under problem 3.c. is actually >> interesting. >> >> ... The "Jewish problem" or the "Indian problem" is not the same as the >> "drug problem" or the "weight problem". > > similarly, "black problem" (or "(American) Negro problem"), notably in quotes saying that America doesn't have a black problem, it has a white problem -- i associate this with Richard Wright (and a version of it appears in the 1968 Kerner Commission report). > > related examples: > > Slavery was but one aspect of a race and color problem that is still far from solution here, or anywhere. (Samuel Eliot Morison, The Oxford History of the American People (1965), ch. 33) > > At the root of the American Negro problem is the necessity of the American white man to find a way of living with the Negro in order to be able to live with himself. (James Baldwin, "Stranger in a Village", Harper's, Oct. 1953) > > (some with the indefinite article, some with the definite). > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org GB: The Negro Problem Solved [,,,], by Rev. Hollis Read [???]. New York: A. A. Constantine. 1864. The OED seems to lack "Negro problem," but it does have "Negro question" (1801; T. Coxe Let. 15 Mar. in T. Jefferson Papers (2006) XXXIII. 300 The present inclosure will contain the fullest discussion of the Negro question, which I have yet seen.) and both "race problem" (1860) and "race question" (1858). IME, the usual cliches were "Negro problem" and "race question," back in the '40's and '50's, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 01:22:17 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 20:22:17 -0500 Subject: bogus Carlyle quote Message-ID: 12,000 sites attribute these words to Thomas Carlyle: "War is a quarrel between two thieves too cowardly to fight their own battle; therefore they take boys from one village and another village, stick them into uniforms, equip them with guns, and let them loose like wild beasts against each other." In fact, these are Emma Goldman's words, in _Anarchism and Other Essays_ (N.Y.: Mother Earth, 1910), p. 139, interpreting nearly two densely printed pages of _Sartor Resartus_ (1831-34). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Jan 21 05:41:02 2012 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:41:02 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw Message-ID: I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): ---- Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were familiar with it is irrelevant. "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this goes back a long, long way, for generations. ---- Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak more authoritatively than I could. Thanks, James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 06:32:40 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 01:32:40 -0500 Subject: From an anti-SOPA rant: _ me_ as subject Message-ID: "The US government is deciding that THEY can decide what _me_ (as a Canadian not subject to American law) can do." Bizarre. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 21 10:20:26 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:20:26 -0500 Subject: Beta In-Reply-To: <201201202010.q0KJZApM000354@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > I see that the OED is missing the investments meaning of beta, where > the beta of a stock or portfolio is a number describing the relation of its returns > with those of the financial market as a whole. This is a fundamental concept > of contemporary investments theory and practice. Beta may be contrasted > with alpha (also missing from the OED), which is a risk-adjusted measure of > the so-called active return on an investment. I'm not sure if these terms were > originated (or popularized) by the work of Harry Markowitz in the 1950s or > that of Jack Treynor and others in formulating the capital asset pricing model in > the early 1960s. They have been in wide use, within the financial community, > for decades. Wikipedia has articles on alpha (finance) and beta (finance). I touched on this sense of "alpha" and "beta" in my On Language column on "quants": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/magazine/16FOB-OnLanguage-t.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 11:52:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:52:05 -0500 Subject: taboo [OT--sort of] Message-ID: An article in NYDN was quoted by Eugene Volokh this morning: http://goo.gl/lJtsx > A bigot named their WiFi signal "F--- All Jews and N----" -- and now > cops are investigating. I'm not going to get into First Amendment implications of all this--that's Volokh's job. But I find something very unsettling in this particular example of taboo avoidance. "All" and "and" are incidental, but why is "N---" blanked out and "Jews" is not? If this whole thing is about discrimination, shouldn't both groups be treated equally? Shouldn't the report have been "F--- All J--- and N----"? Or is the aforementioned "bigot" softer on Jews and thus has chosen a less insulting categorization? What if he said "Fuck all Hebrews and Niggers"? Or even "Fuck all Kikes and Niggers? Would NYDN blank out "kike"? Or would they try some weasel-word explanation such as "offensively expressed sexually vulgar disposition toward Jews and African-Americans, not in so many words"? An enquiring Jew wants to know... OK Never mind that it wasn't the "signal" that was thus named, but the "hotspot" that sent and received signals. Speaking of which--is this meaning of "signal" in the OED? Should it be? VS-) PS: Rhetorical questions, of course--No; Yes. In fact, I believe, this meaning of "signal" is quite old--the radio-related question, "Can you locate the signal?" has always meant, "Can you find out where it's coming from?" or "Can you find the source?" It's contextual, but the meaning is similar (unless we parse "locate" differently from locate 7.--say, as "trace back to its origin"--I don't think that's in the OED either). locate, v. > 7. To discover the exact place or locality of (a person or thing). Maybe "locate the signal" should be a listed phrase. (126K raw ghits, although many are spurious) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 12:02:21 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 07:02:21 -0500 Subject: Rumsfeld redux Message-ID: Apparently, Rumsfeld is an unwise Confucian: http://goo.gl/p7Slp > Confucius Says...Wise Sayings > Chinese Proverbs > > ... > To know what we know, and know what we do not know, is wisdom. What? Nothing about "unknown unknowns"? There is a lot more "wisdom" on this page and I'm wondering how much of it is fake. On second thought, a lot of it sounds like Chinglish, so they may well be authentic (e.g., "A gentleman is calm and spacious; the small man is always fretting.") It's a bit premature, but Chinese New Year is on Monday. We'll slay that dragon when we get to it... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 13:38:35 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:38:35 -0800 Subject: From an anti-SOPA rant: _ me_ as subject In-Reply-To: <201201210633.q0L62YZi007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > "The US government is deciding that THEY can decide what _me_ (as a > Canadian not subject to American law) can do." > > Bizarre. (what's the source? i haven't found it via googling.) actually moderately common. back in February 2006, Thomas Grano did a search for me and found large numbers; his report used the following quote as a header: "This really blew my mind, the fact that me, an overfed, long-haired, leaping gnome, should be the star of a Hollywood movie." -lyrics from song "Spill the Wine", by Eric Burdon Grano's sample had 19 examples with _me_ + an appositive (as in WG's example and the Burdon quote) and 23 with _me_ plus a loose modifier (_for one_, _however_, _too_). in cases where the verb shows person features morphologically, the verb agreement goes either of two ways: 1sg: Heya party people, the holiday season is upon us and me for one am excited. 3sg: me, for one, is the first to admit I have got a long long way to go (for the appositives, you might analyze 3sg agreement as agreement with the nearest, since the appositive phrase is 3sg.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 14:51:12 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:51:12 -0500 Subject: You fascist! Message-ID: Strictly speaking, OED has no evidence of the very loose political usage of "fascist" and "fascism" till the 1970s. (Unless I'm more senile than I think, they began to surface prominently in antiwar discourse about 1968.) At any rate: 1944 John T. Flynn _As We Go Marching_ (Garden City: Doubleday) 1: Fascism has attained to the dignity of a cuss word in America. When we disagree with a man's social or political arguments, if we cannot reasonably call him a communist, we call him a fascist. The word itself has little more relation to its original and precise object than a certain well-beloved American expletive has to the harmless domestic animal it actually describes. As a prominent America-Firster, Flynn was undoubtedly on the receiving end of some of those "fascist" accusations. His book, however, is a libertarian warning against genuinely fascist tendencies in American life. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 14:57:44 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:57:44 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201210625.q0L63YDv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on this matter. Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:40:30 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:40:30 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking season. Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:10:08 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:10:08 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201211502.q0L63Ygj005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. DanG On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue > with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those > little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in > the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking > season. > > Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" > "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > > > ---- > > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > > ---- > > > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > > more authoritatively than I could. > > > > Thanks, > > James Harbeck. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:50:46 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:50:46 -0500 Subject: You fascist! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: this appears to me to be a slight shift in the use of the word without any change in meaning, so there is perhaps no reason why even the OED should note it. There is a sort of general rule of pejorative use that causes a pejorative use of a word when both speaker and nearer agree that the category so named is revile-able. You liberal/socialist/communist/Protestant/Catholic/Republican/professor/lexicographer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 9:51 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Strictly speaking, OED has no evidence of the very loose political > usage of "fascist" and "fascism" till the 1970s. (Unless I'm more > senile than I think, they began to surface prominently in antiwar > discourse about 1968.) > > At any rate: > > 1944 John T. Flynn _As We Go Marching_ (Garden City: Doubleday) 1: > Fascism has attained to the dignity of a cuss word in America. When we > disagree with a man's social or political arguments, if we cannot > reasonably call him a communist, we call him a fascist. The word > itself has little more relation to its original and precise object > than a certain well-beloved American expletive has to the harmless > domestic animal it actually describes. > > As a prominent America-Firster, Flynn was undoubtedly on the receiving > end of some of those "fascist" accusations. His book, however, is a > libertarian warning against genuinely fascist tendencies in American > life. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 15:18:53 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 10:18:53 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, there's a little negative evidence to report. As I've just posted to James's blog, ex-rodeo rider Slim Pickens doesn't yell "Yeehaw!" as he rides the H-bomb in _Dr. Strangelove_ (1964). He yells variations of "Wahoo!" A perfect "Yeehaw!" moment. IMO. J: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on > this matter. > > Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. > > JL > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James Harbeck >> Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >> (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >> >> ---- >> Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >> because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >> because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >> Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >> They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >> actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >> familiar with it is irrelevant. >> >> "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >> because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >> history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >> goes back a long, long way, for generations. >> ---- >> >> Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >> although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >> question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >> http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >> pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >> more authoritatively than I could. >> >> Thanks, >> James Harbeck. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 16:10:13 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:10:13 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: His "authority" is that he grew up in South Carolina. How can we argue with that? Maybe he even read an explication of the topic in one of those little pamphlets on "Hah tuh Tawk Souf Kuhlinyun" that Yankees can buy in the multitude of tee-shirt stores in Myrtle Beach during beer-drinking season. Odd, though, that there was something identified as a "Rebel Yell" "before" the War Between the States. Maybe they yelled it at the Redcoats? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 21 15:46:07 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:46:07 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <4AEBE213-2B8C-4994-A321-9C30670E6754@aol.com> Message-ID: Some 19th-c. US publications give yee-haw as the sound made by a mule or jackass. E.g.: ....a large jackass....kicked up his heels, and with a most sonorous yee-haw! yee-haw! set off at the top of his speed.... Matters and Things in General (News) Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, September 07, 1844; Issue 51; col C (!9th. c. US N.) Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > ---- > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > more authoritatively than I could. > > Thanks, > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 21 17:15:58 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:15:58 -0500 Subject: "preppers" Message-ID: It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: --- http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on the horizon. "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly believe that you have to be prepared." Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 17:39:36 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:39:36 +0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201211546.q0L63Y3M012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw Cf. Wp article s.v. Battle cry: Alala, Allahu akbar, Awake iron!, Faugh A Ballagh, Geronimo, Grito de Dolores, Hooah, Jai Hind, Kiai, Merdeka, Oorah, Rebel yell, Santiago; with links to Hooah, Hooyah, Hurrah, Huzzah, Semper Fi. (Add Curahee.) As noted in the article, there were as many renditions of the rebel yell as there were regional military units. My personal variant involves a high-rising falsetto yee- and a very low pitched -hah. Awake Iron!! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 17:46:04 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:46:04 +0800 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201211726.q0L63Y9Y012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: *I'm a Prepper, she's a Prepper ... Wouldn't you like to be a Prepper, too?* ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 18:42:51 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:42:51 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't they have bomb shelters left over from the 50s? Sent from my iPad On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: > > --- > http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 > When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the > Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on > the horizon. > "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly > believe that you have to be prepared." > Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to > themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of > imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and > many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural > disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. > --- > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 18:48:37 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:48:37 -0500 Subject: You fascist! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:50 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > this appears to me to be a slight shift in the use of the word without any change in meaning, so there is perhaps no reason why even the OED should note it. There is a sort of general rule of pejorative use that causes a pejorative use of a word when both speaker and nearer agree that the category so named is revile-able. You liberal/socialist/communist/Protestant/Catholic/Republican/professor/lexicographer. > In polite company, that last one may be downtoned to "You harmless drudge!" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 19:02:04 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:02:04 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: Plus "preppie" was already taken. That would make a nice image, though--a bunch of survivalists with their shotguns wearing penny loafers and camouflage pashminas? LH > > --- > http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 > When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the > Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on > the horizon. > "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly > believe that you have to be prepared." > Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to > themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of > imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and > many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural > disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. > --- > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 19:03:39 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:03:39 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201211804.q0L63YBO012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity . There are several companies that sprung up in the last five years or so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! VS-) On 1/21/2012 1:42 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > Don't they have bomb shelters left over from the 50s? > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:15 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> It's the latest (or is it the last?) of the paranoid "-er" groups: >> >> --- >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/21/us-usa-civilization-collapse-idUSTRE80K0LA20120121 >> When Patty Tegeler looks out the window of her home overlooking the >> Appalachian Mountains in southwestern Virginia, she sees trouble on >> the horizon. >> "In an instant, anything can happen," she told Reuters. "And I firmly >> believe that you have to be prepared." >> Tegeler is among a growing subculture of Americans who refer to >> themselves informally as "preppers." Some are driven by a fear of >> imminent societal collapse, others are worried about terrorism, and >> many have a vague concern that an escalating series of natural >> disasters is leading to some type of environmental cataclysm. >> --- >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:11:38 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:11:38 -0500 Subject: Churchill? In-Reply-To: <201201201219.q0K4WhKN019090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The recent tragic cruise ship accident has heightened interest in some words attributed to Winston Churchill (and Noel Coward) as David A. Daniel noted. I posted a quick note on the Quote Investigator blog that might be useful to journalists and others interested in this topic. Feedback appreciated. It probably is possible to push back the 1932 date of the Noel Coward ascription. None of This Nonsense about Women and Children First http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/01/21/nonsense-first/ Here is the ending acknowledgement. Many thanks to David A. Daniel and Thomas S. Acton whose inquiries inspired the formulation of this question and gave impetus to this exploration. Special thanks to researcher Stephen Goranson who rapidly identified the early association with Noel Coward. Here is the most interesting citation that I have not included yet because I haven't checked it on paper. I do not know the exact month, year, author, etcetera. Title: The Canadian magazine Volumes: 77-78 Year: Circa 1932 Page: 32 according to GB and HathTrust http://books.google.com/books?id=c7UcAQAAMAAJ&q=jesting#search_anchor [Begin extracted text] Noel Coward's gift for jesting often gets him into difficulties as when he told some people that he was going to "sail on a French liner, where there is none of this nonsense about women and children first", and the widely printed remarks evoked no end of unfavorable criticism. [End extracted text] Garson On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Churchill? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Related, though not Churchill: > > Noel Coward, of course, had his expected joke about ocean travel....A friend heard he was sailing, not flying, supposed he would sail on the Queen; not at all, Sir Noel bantered, and named a foreign line he was about to take; why, asked his friend, and Sir Noel, in famed Cowardly fashion, explained "None of that nonsense about women and children first." > > I Luxury Liner You Ye Going! . > ?Sarasota Journal - Aug 5, 1971 > > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YvgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DI0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5069,773928&dq=nonsense-about-women-and-children-first&hl=en > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of David A. Daniel [dad at POKERWIZ.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 6:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] Churchill? > > This has been circulating ever since the accident. Any chance it was really > Churchill? If not, anyone know who it really was? > > "A friend reminded me of a comment made by Winston Churchill. > After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise > liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister > would choose an Italian ship. > 'There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship,' said > Churchill. > 'First, their cuisine is unsurpassed. > Second, their service is superb. > And then, in case of an emergency, there is none of this nonsense about > women and children first.'" > > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:23:08 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:23:08 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201210625.q0L63YDv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Association TO the West"? Is this widespread? regional? It's 9mil ghits vs 420mil for "with". I must have been ignoring it all these years. Also 1780 vs. 37K raw for "exists in association to/with". VS-) On 1/21/2012 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > ---- > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > because ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 20:33:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 12:33:48 -0800 Subject: Jade gate/stalk Message-ID: The AHD, OED and Merriam-Webster are all silent on these terms. Wiktionary has them with one citation each: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jade_stalk http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jade_gate Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:42:40 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:42:40 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <4F1B0C0B.3050200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food > supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity > . There are several companies that sprung [sic] > up in the last five years or > so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul > supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not > sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic > move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is (or if VS just left out a "have") ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Jan 21 20:45:52 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > "Rebel Yell" > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > Civil War On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. > DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 21:35:48 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:35:48 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201212046.q0L62Y7K007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The issue isn't whether Pvt. John "Yeehaw" Smith or someone else, less imaginary, yelled "Yeehaw!" throughout the Civil War. We have no evidence he did. The issue is whether all/most/many/ a pretty fair number of Confederate soldiers realized a/the "rebel yell" by screaming "Yeehaw!" There is no evidence at all for that, even if American folklore of the past thirty or forty years demands otherwise. If "yeehaw!" was stereotypically a donkey sound like "heehaw!" in the 19th C., the likelihood becomes even slimmer. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ronald Butters > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > >> "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. >> DanG > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 21 22:06:54 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:06:54 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <05BC1FA8-0888-4562-A15A-7B5DDA03A7A6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:45 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Huh? what else does it mean to say, as he did, > >> "Rebel Yell" >> which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> Civil War > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> He never said it was identified as a "rebel yell" before the Civil War. >> DanG > The full relevant passage was "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the Civil War I think the observation was that while the "Yeehah!" yell may have itself been in use before the Civil War, it wasn't *called* the Rebel Yell until the Civil War. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 23:04:44 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:04:44 -0800 Subject: Breakup season Message-ID: As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold climate. The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a particular spring phenomenon/period of time. The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of ice in the spring." Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup season": ----- Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 23:09:08 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:09:08 -0800 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201212042.q0L63YKO012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung > > [sic] > > ... This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is > (or if VS just left out a "have") > _sprang_ and _sprung_ are both standard as PSTs of SPRING (i'm pretty sure that _sprung_ is winning). similarly, _sank_ and _sunk_ as PSPs of SINK: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/inflection-rage/ _shrunk_ as PSP of SHRINK is still debated. each form has its own history. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Jan 21 23:16:50 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:16:50 -0800 Subject: "preppers" (CORRECTED) In-Reply-To: <201201212309.q0L63YuZ005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >>> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung >> >> [sic] >> >> ... This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is >> (or if VS just left out a "have") >> > > _sprang_ and _sprung_ are both standard as PSTs of SPRING (i'm pretty sure that _sprung_ is winning). similarly, _sank_ and _sunk_ as PSTs of SINK: > > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/inflection-rage/ > > _shrunk_ as PST of SHRINK is still debated. each form has its own history. > > arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 23:19:57 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:19:57 -0500 Subject: "preppers" In-Reply-To: <201201212042.q0L63Ypv005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "That've" would have been too strange to write... I defer to AZ for the rest... ;-) VS-) On 1/21/2012 3:42 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> Not necessarily--they are the people who buy full-year dehydrated food >> supplies advertized by and with the help of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. There are several companies that sprung > [sic] > >> up in the last five years or >> so that cater to this "need". These also tend to be Ron Paul >> supporters--at least for his demand to the "gold standard". I am not >> sure there is a term yet for those demanding such a prudent economic >> move, but it has a long history. Bomb shelter? Meh! > This is not a prescriptive "sic" -- just wondering how widespread it is = > (or if VS just left out a "have") ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jan 21 23:28:20 2012 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:28:20 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Breakup season As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold climate. The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a particular spring phenomenon/period of time. The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of ice in the spring." Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup season": ----- Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Jan 21 23:36:13 2012 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (sclements at NEO.RR.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" Here's your significant moment, via youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU Sam Clements ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on > this matter. > > Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. > > JL > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: James Harbeck > > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" > > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): > > > > ---- > > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is > > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War > > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under > > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. > > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood > > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were > > familiar with it is irrelevant. > > > > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" > > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the > > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just > > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such > > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this > > goes back a long, long way, for generations. > > ---- > > > > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, > > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the > > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at > > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with > > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak > > more authoritatively than I could. > > > > Thanks, > > James Harbeck. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jan 21 23:47:45 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:47:45 -0800 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201212328.q0L62YB4007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wow, 1868! According to Wikipedia, that's the year after Seward's Folly. BB On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. > > DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in > weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring > melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Breakup season > > As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to > dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter > appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held > drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of > garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold > climate. > > The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," > but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not > understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a > particular spring phenomenon/period of time. > > The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or > harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time > period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would > breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. > > The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of > ice in the spring." > > Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup > season": > > ----- > Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! > (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) > ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 21 23:56:38 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:56:38 -0500 Subject: breakout session Message-ID: "Breakout session" or any other "breakout" of this kind (with or without a hyphen, or even split) does not appear to be in the OED. The top three Google hits: http://goo.gl/1Ly1m > Relatively short session where a small group of attendees, drawn from > a large conference or convention, discusses specific subjects or > aspects of the broad theme of the main gathering. Also called a > breakout meeting. http://goo.gl/jc1nT > A workshop or presentation on a specific topic that serves as a > portion of the agenda of a larger program, seminar, conference or > convention. Multiple sessions typically occur concurrently. http://goo.gl/ekV6H > A breakout session is a kind of session format that takes place in a > conference. In a breakout session, participants are broken up into > smaller groups for the purpose of discussing a specific topic. > This kind of session may also be referred to as a workshop session. It > serves as an opportunity for conference delegates to participate more > actively, and for several discussions to take place at the same time. > A facilitator may take charge of presenting the topic or question to > be discussed, and a member of the team notes down the group?s ideas. > The information gathered may be reported in front of the larger group > later on. VS-) PS: I initially had to do a double-take on "break-up season", because a quick glance gave me "break-up session". That resolved, I realized that there is no dictionary entry. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 00:42:29 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 16:42:29 -0800 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201212328.q0L62YB4007547@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it... On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. > > DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in > weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring > melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Benjamin Barrett > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Breakup season > > As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to > dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter > appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held > drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of > garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold > climate. > > The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," > but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not > understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a > particular spring phenomenon/period of time. > > The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or > harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time > period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would > breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. > > The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of > ice in the spring." > > Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup > season": > > ----- > Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! > (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jan 22 00:49:23 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:49:23 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <7A823880-BC88-468B-A517-428DBEA29971@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it? Well, in Madison it was called variously "dog turd season", "dog turd thaw season", or (misleadingly) "frozen dog turd season", but as should be clear, that's named for a different effect of the turd?er, turn of season. LH > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Dave Wilton wrote: > >> I too recall being in Anchorage during break-up. >> >> DARE has an entry for "break-up" that's distinct from the "change in >> weather" sense. It's Alaskan, of course, and defined as "the late spring >> melting of ice and snow" with citations back to 1868. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> Benjamin Barrett >> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:05 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Breakup season >> >> As a kid near Anchorage, I recall the breakup season when the snow turned to >> dirty, muddy slush and all the litter that had accumulated over the winter >> appeared. It is an ugly time of year. One elementary school I attended held >> drawings for kids picking up garbage. You got one entry for each bag of >> garbage you brought in. Breakup season is an important event in any cold >> climate. >> >> The OED is close with "change from fine or settled weather, or from frost," >> but I think this meaning deserves its own place as "breakup season" is not >> understood to be on the same level as "breakup of the sunny weather" but a >> particular spring phenomenon/period of time. >> >> The AHD is also close with "The cracking and shifting of ice in rivers or >> harbors during the spring." That is also an important series of events/time >> period. I recall a bar that held a pool to see when a certain lake would >> breakup. Whoever had the closest time won the money. >> >> The MW meaning is close to AHD with "the breaking, melting, and loosening of >> ice in the spring." >> >> Googling on the Anchorage Times site, I see just one instance of "breakup >> season": >> >> ----- >> Tip: Keep our waterways clean this breakup season -- scoop the poop! >> (http://www.adn.com/2011/03/26/v-enlarge/1777398_a1777397/pet-patrol.html) >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 01:02:52 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:02:52 -0500 Subject: Breakup season In-Reply-To: <201201220049.q0LLUYTu012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has ice-break--which I thought the most likely candidate--under ice, but neither examples nor definitions (several other "ice" compounds suffer the same fate). Ice-breaker gets a separate article. Ice-breaking lumps together adj.&n. and the metaphorical usage (e.g., icebreaking questions). There are a few other terms that are either missing or need updates. There is "ice-beer" from the latest drafts, but "ice-wine" is not--even though Eiswein has a full entry. (Yes, "ice-wine" is used occasionally as a calque for Eiswein.) VS-) On 1/21/2012 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Jan 21, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> What is this called in other cities? Surely there's a word for it? > Well, in Madison it was called variously "dog turd season", "dog turd thaw season", or (misleadingly) "frozen dog turd season", but as should be clear, that's named for a different effect of the turd?er, turn of season. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 01:29:15 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201212336.q0LLUYRg012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is the description published in 1866 of a rebel yell from the perspective of a member of the opposing forces. Title: Life in the army: in the departments of Virginia, and the Gulf, ... Year: 1866 Author: J. Chandler Gregg http://books.google.com/books?id=M4y_uRmDyI8C&q=fiendish#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] I was near enough at times to the rebel lines during these three terrible days, to hear their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible [End excerpt] Jonathan summarized other descriptions in a message to the list in December 2006. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;Ppldbg;200612041354550800A The growth of the full-text databases might allow the construction of a more comprehensive set of descriptions. There may have been multiple rebel yells, and they may have changed over time. On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- > > "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" > > Here's your significant moment, via youtube. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU > > Sam Clements > > ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on >> this matter. >> >> Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. >> >> JL >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: James Harbeck >> > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >> > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >> > >> > ---- >> > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >> > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >> > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >> > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >> > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >> > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >> > familiar with it is irrelevant. >> > >> > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >> > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >> > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >> > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >> > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >> > goes back a long, long way, for generations. >> > ---- >> > >> > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >> > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >> > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >> > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >> > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >> > more authoritatively than I could. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > James Harbeck. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 02:16:32 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:16:32 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220129.q0L63YxN005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for the link, Sam. It may not matter much, but what Stan yells isn't "Yeehaw!" It's "Yeeeyaahh!" Definitely a / j /, not a / h /. JL On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Below is the description published in 1866 of a rebel yell from the > perspective of a member of the opposing forces. > > Title: Life in the army: in the departments of Virginia, and the Gulf, ... > Year: 1866 > Author: J. Chandler Gregg > http://books.google.com/books?id=M4y_uRmDyI8C&q=fiendish#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > I was near enough at times to the rebel lines during these three > terrible days, to hear their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no > other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty > cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the > "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible > [End excerpt] > > Jonathan summarized other descriptions in a message to the list in > December 2006. > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;Ppldbg;200612041354550800A > > The growth of the full-text databases might allow the construction of > a more comprehensive set of descriptions. There may have been multiple > rebel yells, and they may have changed over time. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:36 PM, wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> When we last discussed this topic in 2006, Jon Lighter said- >> >> "And lest Sam feel like chopped liver, if "Yankee Stan" Freberg did yell "Yee-ha(w)!" in 1955 (rather than "Ya-hoo!") it was a significant moment in American life" >> >> Here's your significant moment, via youtube. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VSa7W8zBOU >> >> Sam Clements >> >> ---- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thanks, James, for mentioning the my excruciatingly learned posts on >>> this matter. >>> >>> Update: nothing new to report, though I've kept the topic in mind. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 12:41 AM, James Harbeck wrote: >>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > Poster: James Harbeck >>> > Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > I got the following comment today on my blog post on "yeehaw" >>> > (http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/): >>> > >>> > ---- >>> > Wrong. The reason "Yeehaw" exists in association to the West is >>> > because so many Southerners ended up there after the Civil War >>> > because their homeland had been sacked and burned and was under >>> > Federal (Yankee) occupation - home itself was not friendly territory. >>> > They probably did yell it on cattle drives; whether early Hollywood >>> > actors and writers from New York, Chicago and maybe Alberta were >>> > familiar with it is irrelevant. >>> > >>> > "Yeehah!" is the Southernism that was identified as the "Rebel Yell" >>> > which was in use since before the Civil War and was heard during the >>> > Civil War... usually delivered at the top of one's lungs. Just >>> > because you haven't observed its history doesn't mean that such >>> > history doesn't exist. I grew up in rural South Carolina and this >>> > goes back a long, long way, for generations. >>> > ---- >>> > >>> > Needless to say, I think he is a little oversure of his version, >>> > although it is in its way an interesting contribution to the >>> > question. I would be glad of comment (by email or at >>> > http://sesquiotic.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/yeehaw/) by any with >>> > pertinent knowledge -- someone a little "closer" to it might speak >>> > more authoritatively than I could. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > James Harbeck. >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 04:05:05 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:05:05 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A bunch of typical 19th C. descriptions of "the" rebel yell. Obviously more than one sound is being described, and probably not every yelling rebel was making the same sound in any given instance. "Screams" and "shrieks" may be the most consistent with a "Yeehaw!" Many of the sounds described seem to be a howling falsetto, however, with yips ad lib. But if "Yeehaw" was much used, nobody thought of spelling it out till well into the 20th C. That seems odd to me. 1862 _Bangor Daily Whig & Courier_ (Sept. 23) 1 [19th C. US Newsp.]: We...joyfully listened to the three hearty cheers of the brave tars; so different from the rebel yell. 1866 J. Chandler Gregg _Life in the Army_ (Phila.: Perkinpine & Higgins) 80: I...[heard] their unearthly, fiendish yell, such as no other troops or civilized beings ever uttered. It was not a hearty cheer, or hurrah, or roar, but a kind of shriek as dissonant as the "Indian war-whoop," and more terrible. 1872 _Georgia Weekly Telegraph and Georgia Weekly Journal & Messenger_ (May 28) 1 [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The Last Rebel Yell...But the old yell comes/ Though silent are the drums:/ Whoo-hoop! 1877 _St. Louis Globe-Democrat_ (July 22) 11: [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The difference between the regular "hurrah" of the Federal army and the irregular, wild yell of the Confederates was as marked as the difference in their uniforms. The rebel yell was a peculiar mixture of sounds, a kind of weird shout. 1878 William Preston Johnston _The Life of Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston_ (N.Y.: Appleton) 644: The "rebel yell" - that penetrating scream of menace and resolve 1879 _Galveston Daily News_ (Oct. 22) 1 [19th C. U.S. Newsp.]: The difference between a northern cheer and a rebel yell...One might as well ask the difference between a northern cheer and an Indian yell. The difference is felt, heard, and known to exist., but is simply indescribable. I, for one, shall never forget the rebel yell. Ibid.: There was quite a difference, to my ears, between the unearthly shriek of the gallant men who charged our lines at Gettysburg, for instance, and the full-throated "hurrah" of the men who met them. 1880 Wilson J. Vance _Princes' Favors_ (N.Y.: American News Co.) 26: The Rebel yell - that howling, tigerish shriek! It lives in my ears still! There was something...savage and almost inhuman about it.... 1884 _St. Louis Globe-Democrat_ (Nov. 23) 11: As to what the "rebel yell" is, the boys in blue who faced the Confederates on many a hard-fought field do not need to be told. They remember that sharp, short yelp, a cross between a snarl and a bark, which filled the air with its strident tones....It was in striking contrast to the clear, ringing cheers that rolled along the lines of the armies of the Union in defiant answer. 1885 _Milwaukee Daily Journal_ (Feb. 19) 1: The Old Rebel Yell...a piercing sound which caused shivers to run down our spines....As for reproducing it, even on paper, we could not think of such a thing. 1888 S. Millett Thompson _Thirteenth Regiment of New Hampshire Volunteer Infantry_ (Boston: Houghton Mifflin) 550: The "Rebel Yell" is probably nothing new, but...as old as the word "Hur-rah." As near as can be made out, it is the first syllable of the word hurrah - hur - repeatedly and rapidly given in the roof of the mouth, a high, sharp, falsetto note; probably the sharpest and loudest sound of which the human voice is capable. It is the rapid repetition of the rebel yell, by hundreds and thousands of rebel voices, that gives to it its vibratory, vicious, piercing character. Anyone can easily sound this famous yell with a little practice. As a distinguished Southern writer says, "A man can holloa the rebel yell all day; it does not exhaust the voice." 1888 _Sigma Chi Qly._ (Nov.) 37: It was a wild, oscillating, indescribable sound, as if thousands of enraged animals were howling a death-wail....It was the Rebel yell. 1888 C. B. Fairchild, ed. History of the 27th Regiment New York Vols. (Binghamton, N.Y.: pvtly. ptd.) 248 : And so unlike that horrid, shameful Rebel yell,/ More like the shrieking cry from the demons of hell. 1889 Lippincott's Monthly Mag._(July) 21: A long-drawn eddying howl which echoed and re-echoed among the trees in a peculiarly penetrating cadence...a differentiation of the old "rebel yell," still used among the mountains as a signal. 1892 R. M. Collins _Chapters from the Unwritten History of the War between the States_ (St. Louis: Nixon-Jones, 1898) 282: Once in a great while...a woman would wave a white handkerchief at us, which used to cause us boys to scream like wild cats and toss our gray caps into the air. 1893 Lizzie Carey Daniel, ed. _Confederate Scrap-Book_ (Richmond: J. L. Hill) 107: Then arose that do-or-die expression, that maniacal maelstrom of sound; that penetrating, rasping, shrieking, blood-curdling noise...such an expression as never yet came from the throats of sane men. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 04:07:29 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:07:29 +0000 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201211338.q0L63Yx0012829@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NY accent is dying out? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddaboutit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwards c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe" itself, as per m-w.com. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sun Jan 22 04:25:50 2012 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Kate) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:25:50 -0800 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201220407.q0L63Y1r005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In NY, I believe it's cwawfee. -- Kate Svoboda-Spanbock (sent from my iPhone) On Jan 21, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > NY accent is dying out? > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= > tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 > > This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = > "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = > would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= > ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= > itself=2C as per m-w.com. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 22 05:27:54 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:27:54 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220405.q0L63Y1n005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From N-archive: ---------- _Sheboygan [WI] Press_, 6 Aug. 1943: p. 7: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 07:08:25 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:08:25 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220528.q0M4W2Z6011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson heboygan [WI] Press_, 6 Aug. 1943: p. 7: > > < parachutists who "give" [sic] when they dive from the plane into space.>> That is an excellent cite, Doug. I now see that Barry Popik looked into yeehaw in 2007 and he found that cite also. Barry also mentioned the OED entry for yeehaw, int. Yeehaw (Yee-ha; Yee-haw) Entry from March 11, 2007 http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/yeehaw_yee_ha_yee_haw/ James Harbeck mentioned that "Ye haw" might be used to control a team of horses, and here is a metaphorical example of that in 1909. Cite: 1909 June, The Medical Standard, Health by John V. Shoemaker, Page 306, Column 2, Volume 32, Number 6, G.P. Engelhard & Co., Chicago. (Google Books full view) To the President of the United States let us accord full meed of praise for the untiring service that he performed towards framing a protective law. Congress willingly did its part, the President himself has justly praised it for its work. But it was the President's spiritual guidance that vastly helped on the good work. It is a good yoke, the two Houses, whenever it pulls, as in this case, together. But the President's goad did yeoman's service, too, as he directed the lumbering team with his honest hearty-"Yee Haw." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 22 11:06:42 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:06:42 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But "aw" is the "standard" pseudophonetic for the raised NYCE (and still very much with us thank you very much) variant [? ??] that is stereotyped in the word "coffee" Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 21, 2012, at 11:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > NY accent is dying out? > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= > tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 > > This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = > "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = > would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= > ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= > itself=2C as per m-w.com. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 12:25:27 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:25:27 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201220405.q0L63Y1n005181@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Yeehaw Junction" is a familiar place to Florida travelers going north to Orlando (Disneyworld) on the FLorida Turnpike where it adjoins Rt 60. Yeehaw means "wolf" in Seminole. It's not a town but a "census designated place." Populatiion 240 in 2000. They sell discount Disneyworld tickets there. It used to be Jackass Junction in the 30's, but renamed when the turnpike came through in 1957. My question: What would jackass be in Seminole? According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeehaw_Junction,_Florida Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Sun Jan 22 12:29:51 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 04:29:51 -0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw Message-ID: The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? - Jim Landau Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:07:22 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:07:22 -0500 Subject: "au jus" Message-ID: Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that comes with its roast beef sandwiches. The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:17:48 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:17:48 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221230.q0M4W2sc011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought these had been posted in 2006-07, but perhaps not: http://26nc.org/History/Rebel-Yell/rebel-yell.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM&feature=related The latter is especially informative. All kinds of sounds ("Yow!" "Yeeow!" "How!" "Hiiii!" "Heee!") but no stereotyped "Yeehaw!" that I can hear. Not one. JL JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:29 AM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau " > > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. > > Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? > > - Jim Landau > > Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. > > However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 14:22:51 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221417.q0M4W2uu011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: These Gettysburg veterans (in 1938) are yelling something like "Wo ho! Hoo-wooo!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1byof4IAHk&feature=related JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I thought these had been posted in 2006-07, but perhaps not: > > http://26nc.org/History/Rebel-Yell/rebel-yell.html > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM&feature=related > > The latter is especially informative. > > All kinds of sounds ("Yow!" "Yeeow!" "How!" "Hiiii!" "Heee!") but no > stereotyped "Yeehaw!" that I can hear. > > Not one. > > JL > > > JL > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:29 AM, James A. Landau > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "James A. Landau " >> >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1938 was a well-publicized affair, with a number of survivors of the battle attending. This reunion was covered by the radio networks. >> >> Would it be too much to ask that some of the networks recorded Confederate veterans reproducing the Rebel yell(s) and that some of such recordings are still extant and available for research? >> >> - Jim Landau >> >> Fallout shelters: some large public ones, with their logo of three equilateral triangles apex-down arranged two in a row with the third centered below still exist. They have proven useful over the years for housing victims of natural disasters and wildfires. >> >> However, the in-home family fallout shelter was not the 1950's; rather it was a fad in the Kennedy years/ >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> Netscape. Just the Net You Need. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 17:55:48 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:55:48 -0800 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201221407.q0M89qT1001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that > comes with its roast beef sandwiches. > > The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." > > In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In > fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying > to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 18:17:20 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:17:20 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites Message-ID: The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. As Barry Popik points out in 2003 (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes frites" are also found on Google. Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a double take and take a second to figure it out." (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 18:39:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:39:06 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <155157D9-A80B-4F7E-A629-D9F2C81241B6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato chips" are there called "crisps". Joel >As Barry Popik points out in 2003 >(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), >the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a >translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at >http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a >difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't >think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > >The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I >have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls >"pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation >and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. > >The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" >would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes >frites" are also found on Google. > >Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly >relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a >double take and take a second to figure it out." >(http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) > >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Jan 22 18:41:12 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:41:12 -0600 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221817.q0M4W2mL007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = > it. > > As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = > at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There = > is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether = > there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = > doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" (1979) uses the phrase during his first visit to McDonald's. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 18:47:31 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:47:31 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221841.q0M89qZr001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have never eaten fast food in Paris, but when I moved to Germany, around 1991, french fries at Mickey Ds were called "pommes frites". DanG On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jim Parish > Subject: Re: Pommes frites > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = > > it. > > > > As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = > > ( > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > > 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = > > at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There > = > > is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to > whether = > > there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = > > doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > > > For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" > (1979) uses the phrase during his > first visit to McDonald's. > > Jim Parish > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 19:06:57 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:06:57 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221839.q0M4W2oF007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get that definition. However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. > > But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" > are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato > chips" are there called "crisps". > > Joel > > >> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 >> (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), >> the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a >> translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a >> difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't >> think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). >> >> The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I >> have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls >> "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation >> and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. >> >> The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" >> would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes >> frites" are also found on Google. >> >> Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly >> relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a >> double take and take a second to figure it out." >> (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Sun Jan 22 19:10:38 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:10:38 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221107.q0M4W2fN007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) features are receding, but the features that are retained are ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). [po at l] Johnston On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:06 AM, Michael Newman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But "aw" is the "standard" pseudophonetic for the raised NYCE (and still very much with us thank you very much) variant [? ????] that is stereotyped in the word "coffee" > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 21, 2012, at 11:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: NY accent is dying out? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> NY accent is dying out? >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9027125/Fuhgeddabou= >> tit-New-York-accent-may-be-dying-out.html=20 >> >> This article uses "cawfee" for "coffee" as an example. I would think that = >> "cawfee" ~kaufee is the standard pronunciation. (Note that "awe-droppers" = >> would be attacking this word as well as any word word having "awe" (backwar= >> ds c - IPA) in it and replacing it with "ah". That includes the word "awe"= >> itself=2C as per m-w.com. >> >> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Jan 22 19:24:12 2012 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:24:12 -0600 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221910.q0M89qah001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > > When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it > seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) > features are receding, but the features that are retained are > ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for > bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, > uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is > becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still > heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. -- Dan Goodman If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 19:44:13 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 11:44:13 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221847.q0M4W2oX007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bwahaha. I sit corrected. (I believe the gravity in such places is so strong, however, that not even light can escape.) I assume in "Time After Time," the expression is used for comic effect or to indicate displacement in time-space. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I have never eaten fast food in Paris, but when I moved to Germany, around > 1991, french fries at Mickey Ds were called "pommes frites". > > DanG > > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Jim Parish wrote: > >> >> Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have = >>> it. >>> >>> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 = >>> ( >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0303D&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= >>> 3392&I=3D-3&X=3D5A86CF318F261388B0), the word has meant "French fries" = >>> at least since 1997, perhaps as a translation from Belgian French. There >> = >>> is a discussion at http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to >> whether = >>> there is a difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia = >>> doesn't think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). >>> >> For what it's worth, the H. G. Wells character in "Time After Time" >> (1979) uses the phrase during his >> first visit to McDonald's. >> >> Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 19:49:41 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:49:41 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 02:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to >find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, >making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get >that definition. > >However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" >which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So >I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. Thus the OED is using here the British terminology to explain: (1) "pommes frites" is the British "chip"; (2) N.A. "potato chip" is the British "potato crisp". I agree, it's confusing. Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >On Jan 22, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > At 1/22/2012 01:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> The OED says that pommes frites are potato chips; the AHD doesn't have it. > > > > But isn't this merely the OED's British usage, where "French fries" > > are generally called "chips"? (But sometimes "fries".) U.S. "potato > > chips" are there called "crisps". > > > > Joel > > > > > >> As Barry Popik points out in 2003 > >> > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303D&L=ADS-L&P=R3392&I=-3&X=5A86CF318F261388B0), > >> the word has meant "French fries" at least since 1997, perhaps as a > >> translation from Belgian French. There is a discussion at > >> http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/544084 as to whether there is a > >> difference between pommes frites and French fries (Wikipedia doesn't > >> think so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommes_frites). > >> > >> The word "pommes frites" has currency in restaurants in Seattle. I > >> have used the word to refer to a dish that a restaurant calls > >> "pommes frites." The word definitely has a high-faluting connotation > >> and can be used to refer to Mickey D's dish only in a joking way. > >> > >> The spelling of the singular is not yet fixed. I think "pomme frite" > >> would be the French spelling, but "pommes frite" and "pommes > >> frites" are also found on Google. > >> > >> Googling on "a pomme frites" gets only one hit that is possibly > >> relevant: "Order a pomme frites anywhere in Quebec and they'll do a > >> double take and take a second to figure it out." > >> (http://www.fark.com/comments/6513026/71338958#c71338958) > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Jan 22 20:12:46 2012 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:12:46 -0600 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221944.q0M89qbH001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I assume in "Time After Time," the expression is used for comic effect or to indicate displacement in time-space. Both. Wells, having found himself in late-'70s San Francisco, seeks food at a Mickey D's. He has no idea how to order, so he simply imitates the words (down to the accent) of the trucker in front of him in line. As he walks away, sampling the fries, he mutters to himself, "Ah. Pommes frites!" Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 22 20:40:27 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:40:27 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pauls' right, but the article also comes from over-interpreting Kara's work on the Lower East Side and the perennial idea bouncing around the media of the dialect dying out because, among other things, it is receding among Manhattan Whites due to the high number of them that are transplants. That said there may be a slow deregionalization going on. Kara did find that some local origin Whites are losing a number of NYCE features such as (oh) raising, but her work was in an area that is particularly heavy in transplants. So much so, that she had trouble finding young people whose families would have been on the LES back when Labov did his fieldwork. In my in progress book on NYCE I have mostly maintenance of many features by young people including one who has our precious bird vowel! However, those with the strongest NYCE accents were in a minority even in her high school, where they called it the "Howard Beach" accent. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 22, 2012, at 2:24 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goodman > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: >> >> When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it >> seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) >> features are receding, but the features that are retained are >> ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for >> bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, >> uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is >> becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still >> heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). > > When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect > dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. > > -- > Dan Goodman > If you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 21:21:28 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:21:28 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201221755.q0M4W26a011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As long as they don't say "Oh, Jews!" which I've heard from some people ... VS-) On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > > The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > > And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >> >> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >> >> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 22 21:53:40 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:53:40 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201221923.q0M4W2Bu011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Dan Goodman wrote: > > On 01/22/2012 01:10 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > > > > When journalists say such-and-such a dialect is dying out, usually it > > seems to me that what they're saying is that some (often unspecified) > > features are receding, but the features that are retained are > > ignored. Sure, there are recessive features (the famous [@i] for > > bird, third, church for one--and does anyone know who, if anyone, > > uses it among the generation born about 1980 or so?). Rhoticity is > > becoming more common. But last time I was in NYC (2009), you still > > heard people, even young ones, asking for a cup of [kU at fi~ko at fi). > > When was it that the New York Times ran an article about NYC's dialect > dying out? I believe it got some notice on this mailing list. Well, there was an article in amNewYork/Newsday in 2008: http://www.newsday.com/long-island/new-york-accent-still-talking-the-tawk-1.878199 http://www.amnyinteractive.com/project/2008/NYC-Accent/ And the NYT City Room blog followed up: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/is-the-new-york-accent-disappearing/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jan 22 23:23:37 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:23:37 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201221949.q0M4W2pZ007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Pommes frites > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 1/22/2012 02:06 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> It appears you're partly right. The OED requires two cross-links to >> find a definition, and both have additional meanings and links, >> making it quite confusing. After reading them three times, I get >> that definition. >> >> However, the cross-link from "pommes frites" goes to "potato chip" >> which is defined as both "chip"and North America "potato crisp." So >> I think "pommes frites" is being defined as both. > > Thus the OED is using here the British terminology to explain: (1) > "pommes frites" is the British "chip"; (2) N.A. "potato chip" is the > British "potato crisp". I agree, it's confusing. Unless "pommes frites" means in the UK what we call "potato chips," I think there is a bifurcating path that leads to one unintended definition. I honestly have trouble processing logic puzzles like this, so here are the definitions from the OED (I haven't bothered including "French fries"): pommes frites Potato chips (see potato chip n. (a) at potato n. Compounds 2). Cf. French fries n. at French adj. and n. Special uses 2. potato chip (a) = chip n.1 2b (now rare); (b) N. Amer. and Austral. =potato crisp n. at Compounds 1a(b). chip b. Cookery. pl. (rarely sing.). A thin irregular slice of a fruit, etc. spec. fried pieces of potato, usu. oblong in shape; = French fried potatoes n., French fries n. at French adj. and n. Special uses 2; also (chiefly U.S.) = crisp n. 7. Cf.chip-potatoes n. at Compounds 2, fish and chips (fish n.1 Compounds 2b). potato crisp undefined If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Jan 22 23:40:27 2012 From: vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Fiske) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:40:27 -0500 Subject: A Prescriptivist Manifesto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the January 2012 Vocabula Review: A Prescriptivist Manifesto http://www.vocabula.com ROBERT HARTWELL FISKE EDITOR AND PUBLISHER The Vocabula Review ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 22 23:51:23 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:51:23 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <201201222040.q0M4W2qn007983@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > In my in progress book Would it have killed you to write "In my in-progress book ..." ? I'm not even asking for "In my book in progress ..." . I acknowledge that that would be asking for too much. And I realize that an extra nanosecond of processing time should not be a big deal between friends. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 00:37:16 2012 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:37:16 -0500 Subject: follow-up to ADS Portland Message-ID: local column: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/08/grammar-gremlins-might-could-shouldnt/ my response: http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/17/letter-might-could-meant-politeness/ Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 02:27:49 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:27:49 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201222323.q0M89qfF001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: > 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 03:17:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:17:26 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230227.q0M89qjR001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting things to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be classified as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that are clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like poker chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are also other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there are a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from slices of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, banana, plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes but are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've made in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they have in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a vehicle for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It is not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall into that category. Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be considered "chips". VS-) On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. > BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. > > Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 03:46:05 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:46:05 -0800 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230317.q0N2hFVc011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wow!! Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. (Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to the list below.) Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green bean chips" (http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827). There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being crispy/having a crunch? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting things > to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be classified > as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That > resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles > kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly > referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that are > clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like poker > chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are also > other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not > necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel > chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla > chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, > [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra > chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the > subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there are > a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips > (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from slices > of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, banana, > plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into > "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes but > are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've made > in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular > "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are > essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped > with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they have > in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a vehicle > for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It is > not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the > reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it > when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to > straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried > "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas > would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables > (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall into > that category. > > Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only > some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be > considered "chips". > > VS-) > > On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >> BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have captured this change. >> >> Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national grocery store chains as well. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Jan 23 03:48:18 2012 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:48:18 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201221422.q0M4W2vA011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the last couple of days (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 04:13:45 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:13:45 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201230346.q0M89qkr001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. I can understand someone wanting to try it with water chestnuts and bamboo shoots, but I'm not sure *I* would want to eat them--which explains why I have not noticed them. Burdock makes sense, but so do other wood chips ;-) I refuse to comment on meatsicles... I mean, if we do beef chips, why not egg chips? How about potato & fish chips? (besides, we already have "cow chips", although that, of course, is a different category ;-) ) VS-) On 1/22/2012 10:46 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > Wow!! > > Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. = > http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html = > has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. = > (Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to = > the list below.) > > Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, = > http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix = > category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green = > bean chips" = > (http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827).=20= > > > There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken = > chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. > > Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being = > crispy/having a crunch? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting = > things >> to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be = > classified >> as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That >> resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles >> kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly >> referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that = > are >> clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like = > poker >> chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are = > also >> other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not >> necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel >> chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla >> chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, >> [other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra >> chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the >> subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there = > are >> a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips >> (other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from = > slices >> of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, = > banana, >> plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into >> "chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes = > but >> are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've = > made >> in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular >> "slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are >> essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped >> with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they = > have >> in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a = > vehicle >> for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It = > is >> not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the >> reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it >> when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to >> straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried >> "chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas >> would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables >> (e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall = > into >> that category. >> =20 >> Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only >> some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be >> considered "chips". >> =20 >> VS-) >> =20 >> On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> =20 >>>> If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link = > to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>>> 7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp = > and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >>> BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away = > from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands = > bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have = > captured this change. >>> =20 >>> Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed = > vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery = > store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national = > grocery store chains as well. >>> =20 >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Mon Jan 23 04:21:14 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:21:14 -0500 Subject: NY accent is dying out? In-Reply-To: <17.95.03291.C21AC1F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Uh oh, I'd better really check the hyphenation in my in-book progress, or I'll get it in the reviews! Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: NY accent is dying out? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Michael Newman > wrote: >> In my in progress book > > Would it have killed you to write > > "In my in-progress book ..." > > ? > > I'm not even asking for > > "In my book in progress ..." > > . > > I acknowledge that that would be asking for too much. And I realize > that an extra nanosecond of processing time should not be a big deal > between friends. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Jan 23 13:53:16 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:53:16 +0000 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201222121.q0M89qdR001603@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > > The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > > And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >> >> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >> >> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM Mon Jan 23 14:03:20 2012 From: robin.hamilton2 at BTINTERNET.COM (ROBIN HAMILTON) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:03:20 +0000 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! Message-ID:

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this would intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my life
you can get the hang of it quickly.

------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 14:31:06 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:31:06 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ben, How in the world did "surge" not only not win but not even get nominated? Or perhaps you-all were waiting for the greater number of Republican primaries and polls in 2012? But if so, you may have missed the crest -- I think each of the candidates has already had his or her cresting, and we are now (to mix a metaphor) coming to the neap times. Saturday the Boston Globe had "surge" in the first paragraph of its lead article, and Sunday the New York Times had "surge" in the subhead of its lead article. Joel At 1/6/2012 12:41 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >We had our nominating session for Word of the Year here in Portland, >and the nominees have now been posted: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 14:53:12 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:53:12 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <4F1CDE79.7090008@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/22/2012 11:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have >broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, >are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. I have seen -- and actually eaten -- wasabi-flavored green pea chips. (But at Trader Joe's they don't call themselves "chips", just "wasabi peas". And they're not flat.) Also, add "buffalo chips" to "cow chips". Joel >I can >understand someone wanting to try it with water chestnuts and bamboo >shoots, but I'm not sure *I* would want to eat them--which explains why >I have not noticed them. Burdock makes sense, but so do other wood chips >;-) I refuse to comment on meatsicles... I mean, if we do beef chips, >why not egg chips? How about potato & fish chips? (besides, we already >have "cow chips", although that, of course, is a different category ;-) ) > > VS-) > > > >On 1/22/2012 10:46 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>Wow!! >> >>Lotus root chips particularly stand out. They sound scrumptious. = >>http://grocerytrekker.blogspot.com/2007/03/water-chestnut-chips_26.html = >>has water chestnut chips and suggests jicama and bamboo shoot chips. = >>(Okay, I'm just salivating here. There are no substantial additions to = >>the list below.) >> >>Burdock root chips also get a number of hits. See, for example, = >>http://www.eatweeds.co.uk/burdock-root-chips, which falls into the stix = >>category in that they are not poker chip-shaped. There are also "green = >>bean chips" = >>(http://www.lesleykat.com/Latest-Obsessions-Green-Bean-Chips-13080827).=20= >> >> >>There are also beef chips. Looking casually, I see pork and chicken = >>chips for dogs, but the potential is there for them as human snacks. >> >>Are the unifying characteristics: being a food, being cooked and being = >>crispy/having a crunch? >> >>Benjamin Barrett >>Seattle, WA >> >>On Jan 22, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> >>>If we talk about "chips", in general, there are some interesting = >>things >>>to deal with. First, there was the attempt by Pringles to be = >>classified >>>as something other than "crisps" in the UK--for tax purposes. That >>>resulted in some name changes. For one, chips of the Pringles >>>kind--i.e., reconstituted from potato or rice flour--are now regularly >>>referred to as "crisps" in the US market. There are other items that = >>are >>>clearly not "chip" shaped--in the sense that they don't look like = >>poker >>>chips. One such item is "veggie sticks" (or "stix"). But there are = >>also >>>other "chips" that really do look like poker chips (although not >>>necessarily round)--these include pita chips, bagel chips, pretzel >>>chips, corn chips (of course! but not necessarily tortila or tortilla >>>chips; also includes "popcorn chips"), bean chips, vegetable chips, >>>[other unnamed] chips (e.g., Terra--they really just go by "Terra >>>chips"), multigrain chips. I have not done any formal research on the >>>subject--these are just the ones I can recall from memory. But there = >>are >>>a couple of characteristics that most of these share. Potato chips >>>(other than Pringles-like versions) and Terra chips are made from = >>slices >>>of actual vegetable (usually tubers, but could also be zucchini, = >>banana, >>>plantain, apple--theoretically, pear and quince also could be cut into >>>"chips", as well as items that are referred to as "chips" in recipes = >>but >>>are not sold commercially--sunchokes and lotus, both of which I've = >>made >>>in my own kitchen). Pita chips and bagel chips are made from irregular >>>"slices" of actual pita and bagels, respectively. Pretzel chips are >>>essentially flat pretzels. The rest are reconstituted "chips" shaped >>>with dehydrated vegetable or grain flour. The only two things they = >>have >>>in common is being more flat than long and usually serving as a = >>vehicle >>>for some kind of "dip". "Chips and dip" is a fairly standard item. It = >>is >>>not always clear what distinguishes the latter variety (i.e., the >>>reconstituted chips) from crackers. Most of the time, people know it >>>when they see it, but I've had a few kinds lately that appear to >>>straddle the line. Another questionable category is freeze-dried >>>"chips"--while such things as whole green beans and whole green peas >>>would not constitute "chips", slices of other fruits and vegetables >>>(e.g., eggplant or apple) that have been freeze-dried may well fall = >>into >>>that category. >>>=20 >>>Other than that, I believe my description is fairly exhaustive. Only >>>some of these would be considered "crisps" in the UK and none would be >>>considered "chips". >>>=20 >>> VS-) >>>=20 >>>On 1/22/2012 9:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>>On Jan 22, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>If you travel from "potato chip" to "potato crisp," there is no link = >>to "crisp," but looking "crisp" up yields: >>>>>7. In full potato crisp. A thin sliver of potato fried until crisp = >>and eaten cold. Usu. in pl. of such food produced commercially. >>>>BTW, potato chips are no longer necessarily fried. The trend away = >>from fats for dietary reasons in the US resulted in even national brands = >>bringing out baked potato chips. Neither the AHD nor Wiktionary have = >>captured this change. >>>>=20 >>>>Also, I wonder how appropriate "spec" (specifically) is. Mixed = >>vegetable chips are commonly found in the bulk section of the grocery = >>store, and sweet potato chips and other sorts are found in national = >>grocery store chains as well. >>>>=20 >>>>Benjamin Barrett >>>>Seattle, WA >>>=20 >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Jan 22 23:48:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:48:40 -0500 Subject: yarrowing? Message-ID: From another list. Can anyone cast light? Joel 1) Can anybody tell me what Hesketh Pearson and Hugh Kingsmill meant when they used "yarrow" as a verb, in their book SKYE HIGH? My SHORTER OED wasn't helpful. The OED online wasn't helpful either, nor was an online Scottish dictionary. If they didn't invent the term, where did they find it and why did they enjoy using it? In a section titled "Yarrowing in Earnest" (on p. 213 of the Hamish Hamilton first edition, 1937) their use of the term seems humorous and ironic. Their book is a record of the journey they took to retrace the famous journey to the Hebrides that both Boswell and Johnson described in their separate accounts of their excursion. My only reason for bringing this up is mere curiosity, stimulated by a last look at this work before I donate it to one or another local library for a future book sale. 2) I believe--but please correct me if I'm wrong--that yarrowing is a idiom for travelers and means to skip visiting a place for some reason or another and the word inspired by Wordsworth's poem "Yarrow Unvisited." http://www.bartleby.com/106/257.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 15:05:57 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:05:57 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201112060101.pB5LLVtq023890@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" Fantasy/thriller cliche'. 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you are _someone_. Who? JL On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "rewriting the rules" > > E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has > been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight > years." > > It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And > *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? > > Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. > Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very > strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the > sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. > > Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. > > JL > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >> >> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >> >> >> >> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >> a large price tag attached. >> >> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >> plaything with a hefty price tag. >> >> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >> helpers back. >> >> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >> >> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >> >> JL >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>> >>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>> >>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>> >>> >>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>> and Affairs." >>> >>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>> >>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>> to the World of Libraries. >>> >>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>> >>> From NewspArch: >>> >>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>> >>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>> >>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>> >>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>> >>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>> of modeling. >>> >>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>> >>>> Hot stuff. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>> >>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>> >>>>> --bgz >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 23 16:01:16 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:01:16 -0500 Subject: Pommes frites In-Reply-To: <201201231453.q0NErF09019891@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/22/2012 11:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> OK, carrot, beet and jicama are not technically tubers, so I should have >> broadened that particular category. The "green bean chips", I suspect, >> are precisely the freeze-dried green beans that I described. > > I have seen -- and actually eaten -- wasabi-flavored green pea > chips. (But at Trader Joe's they don't call themselves "chips", just > "wasabi peas". And they're not flat.) > > Also, add "buffalo chips" to "cow chips". > > Joel > You mean buffalo chips aren't potato chips flavored with Frank's hot sauce and vinegar and served with celery and blue cheese dressing? No wonder they didn't taste right! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 16:58:00 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:58:00 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201231431.q0N4VdhN026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > How in the world did "surge" not only not win but not even get > nominated? Or perhaps you-all were waiting for the greater number of > Republican primaries and polls in 2012? But if so, you may have > missed the crest -- I think each of the candidates has already had > his or her cresting, and we are now (to mix a metaphor) coming to the > neap times. > > Saturday the Boston Globe had "surge" in the first paragraph of its > lead article, and Sunday the New York Times had "surge" in the > subhead of its lead article. There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). The noun "surge" was considered in the 2006 WOTY voting in the Most Euphemistic category (defined as "an increase in troop strength"), though it lost out to "waterboarding." At least the military sense of "surge" (as opposed to the various surging presidential candidates) offered a new wrinkle, usage-wise. Notably, the verb could be used transitively, as in "to surge troops into Iraq." More here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003975.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 23 17:17:31 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:17:31 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/23/2012 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >... >There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the >nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have >been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word >given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). From the ADS pages, I see no such requirement. Rather, "Word of the Year ... The words or phrases do not have to be brand-new, but they have to be newly prominent or notable in the past year." Surely "surge" was prominent. I don't believe it should have beaten out "occupy", but I am surprised no one nominated it. I will have to correct that oversight this year. And is there a category for a word used to death? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 17:34:46 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:34:46 -0500 Subject: Nominations for 2011 Word of the Year In-Reply-To: <201201231717.q0NGNali032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/23/2012 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >... > >There was no surge for "surge," simply because it never came up at the > >nominating session or the main WOTY voting session. It may not have > >been on anyone's radar since it is neither a neologism nor an old word > >given new significance (like, say, "occupy"). > > From the ADS pages, I see no such requirement. Rather, "Word of the > Year ... The words or phrases do not have to be brand-new, but they > have to be newly prominent or notable in the past year." Didn't say it was a requirement -- just speculating why it didn't occur to anyone to nominate it. We've certainly had words win that had shown prominence but not much lexicosemantic novelty in the year in question -- "bailout" for 2008 comes to mind. > And is there a category for a word used to death? The suggestion of having a "Most Overused" category has come up from time to time. (Additional categories can always be created on the spot if there's enough interest.) Such a category might put us into the icky terrain of LSSU's Banished Words list, though we already cast non-descriptivist judgments for Most Unnecessary, Most Outrageous, etc. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 23 18:54:38 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:54:38 -0800 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231353.q0N4UTCa018669@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > > On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. >> >> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I >> >> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >>> >>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >>> >>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:04:06 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:04:06 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231854.q0NGNann027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As far as I know, but spelling is probably the big influence here. I'm sure few Americans say [Zy] for the second word, though. Paul Johnston On Jan 23, 2012, at 1:54 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > >> Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? >> >> --Charlie >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. >>> >>> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I >>> >>> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that >>>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. >>>> >>>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." >>>> >>>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In >>>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying >>>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:33:02 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:33:02 -0500 Subject: Au jus Message-ID: The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better... Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:43:07 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:43:07 -0500 Subject: Au jus In-Reply-To: <696692014.151779.1327347182575.JavaMail.root@starship.merit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. > But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). > About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better? > I think another problem is the meaning. In French, the "au" of "au jus" is of course a portmanteau of "a' le" (where is an ad hoc rendering of with an "accent grave"), corresponding to "a' la" as in "a' la mode", "a' la carte", etc. or the "a l'+V" as in "a' l'anglaise". Since the "au" of "au jus" is not only morphologically related to these "a'" forms but also semantically, it may be being assimilated to the phonetics of "a'" as well, a' la "a' jus" (modulo the mutilation of the high front rounded [y], as Geoff warns). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 23 19:53:01 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:53:01 -0500 Subject: Au jus In-Reply-To: <201201231943.q0NGNa26032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And I think there are French dialects which have realizations like [a~ A] too (though not the Western ones that influenced North American varieties). Paul Johnston On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Au jus > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > >> The problem is that the original L1 word is an [o], mid tense back rounded vowel, and for most Americans the vowel in 'owe' would suffice. >> But....it's spelled funny (by American standards) and for those who have not merged /ah/ and /oh/ (to use Labov's symbols) would pronounce it to rhyme with 'law'. And those who have the merger would also pronounce it to rhyme with 'law' (and also with 'la..a note to follow so'). >> About the vowel in the second word (IPA [y]) the less said the better? >> > I think another problem is the meaning. In French, the "au" of "au jus" is of course a portmanteau of "a' le" (where is an ad hoc rendering of with an "accent grave"), corresponding to "a' la" as in "a' la mode", "a' la carte", etc. or the "a l'+V" as in "a' l'anglaise". Since the "au" of "au jus" is not only morphologically related to these "a'" forms but also semantically, it may be being assimilated to the phonetics of "a'" as well, a' la "a' jus" (modulo the mutilation of the high front rounded [y], as Geoff warns). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 20:47:40 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:47:40 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201230349.q0N2hFX4011561@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was struck by the failure of all but two or three earwitnesses to even attempt to spell out their versions of "the" rebel yell. That's two or three out of scores and scores of references. It's also typical nineteenth-century vagueness. It's also striking, though less so, that relatively few writers even bothered to characterize the yell in any particular way. Words like hoot, howl, yowl, rasp, shriek, halloo, etc., occur only infrequently - even as the writers attempt to differentiate the yell from the "Yankee hurrah." An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, "Whoopee!" Also that it is retrofitted, sometimes passionately, as by James's correspondent, to the Civil War. I wonder what Civil War re-enactors yell. JL On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:48 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks > just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this > Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the > last couple of days > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 23 20:56:37 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:56:37 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232047.q0NKXsID027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like they're giving up on "Yeehaw!": http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/09/april/rebelyell_040902.htm JL On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I was struck by the failure of all but two or three earwitnesses to > even attempt to spell out their versions of "the" rebel yell. > > That's two or three out of scores and scores of references. > > It's also typical nineteenth-century vagueness. > > It's also striking, though less so, that relatively few writers even > bothered to characterize the yell in any particular way. Words like > hoot, howl, yowl, rasp, shriek, halloo, etc., occur only infrequently > - even as the writers attempt to differentiate the yell from the > "Yankee hurrah." > > An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream > it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized > expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, > "Whoopee!" > > Also that it is retrofitted, sometimes passionately, as by James's > correspondent, to the Civil War. > > I wonder what Civil War re-enactors yell. > > JL > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:48 PM, James Harbeck wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James Harbeck >> Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Thanks for all that research and insight! The trail of yee-haw looks >> just a little messier now than it did before... but thanks to this >> Jim Redman dude, I've had Billy Idol running through my head for the >> last couple of days >> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdphvuyaV_I&ob=av2e). >> >> James Harbeck. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 23 21:12:21 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 16:12:21 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232047.q0NKXsID027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > An interesting point about "Yeehaw/hah!" is that the stylized scream > it represents has largely displaced, in current use, earlier stylized > expressions of enthusiasm like "Wahoo!" "Yahoo!" and, of course, > "Whoopee!" Good thing there's an alternative available that avoids any encroachment from the Cleveland Indians mascot, the Internet company, and the novelty cushion. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 02:20:52 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:20:52 -0800 Subject: Fartriloquism Message-ID: Fartriloquism is on the Vocabology's word of the day; coming from Urban Dictionary, I don't give it too much credit. And Google indicates it's not widespread. But it does fill a lacuna as an equivalent to "nigirippe" in Japanese. Sushi fans will know that "nigiri" means making a fist with the hand (to mold sushi rice); and "he" is fart. Combined, there is a phonetic change and consonant gemination resulting in "nigirippe," a fart whose air is caught with the hand, then released somewhere else. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 03:22:32 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:22:32 -0500 Subject: finnan/findon/findhorn/findrum Message-ID: The spelling "Findrum" is not listed under "Finnan" in OED. Yet, it is quite common and directly associated with the fishing town/village of Findhorn, at the mouth of Findhorn River in Moray. Yet, the very first quote--a Fergusson poem--uses this spelling. There is a catch--Findrum is /always/ associated with "spelding" or "speldings". Every reference that I found in 18th-19th century sources only talks of Findrum speldings. ("Speldings" is the split and dried fish, mostly haddock and whiting, as opposed to fish that's dried whole, or "lucken".) In fact, this is the case in the Fergusson poem (Leith Races), which is only partially quoted in the OED entry: > The Buchan bodies thro' the beech > Their bunch of /Findrums/ cry, > An' skirl out banl', in Norland speech, > "Guid speldigs, fa will buy." I did find occasional "Findon speldings", as early as 1808, but not "Finnan speldings". Finnan appears to be entirely reserved for "haddock" or "haddie". There is some considerable "dispute" (actually, no one but the OED has a dispute--they always choose one or the other) as to the origin of Finnan haddie (peat-smoked haddock). Many 19th century sources pin it on the village of Findon, about 6 miles due south from Aberdeen center. Others identify it with the aforementioned Findhorn. As I said, the OED etymology note is the only one that juxtaposes them: > A place-name used /attrib./ apparently originally the name of the > river /Findhorn/ , or of a place so called on its banks; but confused > with /Findon/ , the name of a village in Kincardineshire In fact, this is wrong. Findon, being only 6 miles from Aberdeen, is firmly in Aberdeenshire. There is not a single source that I found that places it in Kincardineshire. Even with administrative boundaries changing over time, I don't believe it was /ever/ in Kincardineshire. The location is quite clearly identified in a number of encyclopedias and gazetteers of the early 19th century. I have no particular evidence, as of this moment, one way or the other, between Findon and Findhorn. Generally, as a matter of history, peat-smoked fish has been common in the entire region between Inverness and Aberdeen and most fishing communities around Aberdeen had been known to sell their own smoked fish as "Finnan haddock" or "Finnan haddie". The number of references to Findon and Findhorn between 1808 and 1834 is roughly equal, perhaps with slight advantage to Findhorn (but that mostly because of multiple editions of a couple of cookbooks). Walter Scott referred to Findhorn. It is /after/ 1834 that the references skew heavily to Findon, although references to Findhorn, as the source, still pop up periodically. The reason for the shift is quite simple. Londoners and the rest of Britain became familiar with Finnan haddock from Aberdeen. The smoked fish could only be stored between one and three days before spoilage, unless it was further smoked and dried, which turned it into something else entirely. Even mail coaches along established routes could barely get samples of the fish further South, let alone to London. This changed, however, with construction of railroads. But, since the connection was to Aberdeen and the local lore associated the fish with Findon, so did the printed sources. Findhorn, which used to be an important fishing and trade center, had been essentially ignored. VS-) PS: I am still collecting sources, but it does not look promising, at this point. The sources simply do not go far enough back to make a determination. Wiki suggests that smoked fish was being eaten in Aberdeen as far back as 1640s. So what? Fish has been smoked in other parts of the world far longer. The question concerns specifically Finnan haddie and there is little printed evidence of any kind prior to the last quarter of the 18th century. I am wondering what the OED is using as a source for its etymological determination (clearly, it can't be all correct, if it identifies Findon as being in Kincardineshire). If anyone has or comes across any further resources, please let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 03:25:39 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:25:39 -0800 Subject: blood Message-ID: The attribute "blood" in phrases such as "blood daughter" does not seem to be covered by the OED. Definition 8 pretty much matches this, but the citations and note pretty much limit this to the expressions blue blood, fresh blood and new blood. Related expressions include "half-blood (sister)" and "full-blood (father)." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 24 03:37:52 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:37:52 +0000 Subject: Further Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: I think this should count as a further antedating of "bagel" (OED 1919): 1908 _American Israelite_ 3 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Another proverb that I have noted from my readings of modern Yiddish literature is, "Beigel (roll) and butter you want; to go to Cheder you do not want," which means that one would like to have the benefit of work, but does not want to work. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Victor Steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:51 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Bagel" I've been looking into this for some time, but, so far, the progress is slow (too many people named Bagel or Beigel, plus Beigel's Disease). Still, I can do a bit better than 1916--and, in fact, possibly better still if the English original of the story can be found earlier, before it's placed in the anthology. I plan to scour the volume for more Yiddishisms as well. http://goo.gl/spOG9 Yiddish Tales. Edited by Helena Frank. Philadelphia: 1912 The Hole in a Beigel. By Tashrak (Israel Joseph Zevin). p. 309ff > TASHRAK > Pen name of Israel Joseph Zevin; born, 1872, in GoriGorkl, Government > of Mohileff (Lithuania), White Russia; came to New York in 1889; first > Yiddish sketch published in J?disches Tageblatt, 1893; first English > story in The American Hebrew, 1906; associate editor of J?disches > Tageblatt; writer of sketches, short stories, and biographies, in > Hebrew, Yiddish, and English; contributor to Ha-Ibri, Jewish Comment, > and numerous Yiddish periodicals; collected works, Geklibene > Schriften, 1 vol., New York, 1910, and Tashrak's Beste Erz?hlungen, 4 > vols., New York, 1910. > > THE HOLE IN A BEIGEL > When I was a little Cheder-boy, my Rebbe, Bunem-Breine-Gite's, a > learned man, who was always tormenting me with Talmudical questions > and with riddles, once asked me, "What becomes of the hole in a > Beigel, when one has eaten the Beigel?" > This riddle, which seemed to me then very hard to solve, stuck in my > head, and I puzzled over it day and night. I often bought a Beigel, > took a bite out of it, and immediately replaced the bitten-out piece > with my hand, so that the hole should not escape. But when I had eaten > up the Beigel, the hole had somehow always disappeared, which used to > annoy me very much. I went about preoccupied, thought it over at > prayers and at lessons, till the Rebbe noticed that something was > wrong with me. This is just the first couple of grafs. Obviously, there are a few more pages to the story and the word "beigel" appears throughout. http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. The volume has copyright dates of 1903, 1909 and 1912. VS-) On 1/15/2012 10:07 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > bagel (OED 1919) > > 1916 _Jewish Advocate_ 9 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) He was her son. She, Deborah, the beigel-seller. > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 03:44:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:44:05 -0500 Subject: fish sauce Message-ID: OED has both a Nuoc mam (Vietnamese--[1847], 1879) and a Nam pla (Thai--1931) entry for fish sauce (liquid extract made from fermented anchovies). But NO entry for "fish sauce" proper (everyone I know who cooks with the product, including Vietnamese immigrants from the 1970s, refer to it as "fish sauce" when not using the Southeast Asian names). Well, there is a phrasal entry for "fish-sauce", but it's two quotes 1728/1818 for "sauce to be eaten with fish"--not quite the same thing. Nor is there anything (except for one 1868 quote under Mollifying) for "essence of anchovy"--the original British version of "fish sauce" that was used as a base for Worcestershire Sauce, among other things. (Note, however, that there have been multiple preparations of "essence of anchovy", some involving cooking, but most mere brining) It also appears to have been a common ingredient in salad dressings of the day. I found it also in early 19th century cookbooks as an ingredient for various sauce preparations for fish (e.g., an 1807 cookbook lists it along with butter, flour and a glass of sherry, as additives to make sauce from a cooking liquid that comes out from baked red mullet (en papillote, but that name is not used--instead, oiled paper is mentioned; earliest citation for "en papillote" in this sense is, for now, from 1814). VS-) PS: Entry for caviar in 1802 Domestic Encyclopedia > With regard to physical qualities of caviar, we shall only remark, > that it is a nourishing food, and more easily digested than pickled > salmon ; it somewhat resembles in taste, and nutritive property, the > essence of anchovies ; though few persons, on first, trial relish its > flavour. [punctuation in the original] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 04:57:06 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:57:06 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? Message-ID: http://www.sardegnadigitallibrary.it/ To save those who have no interest in Sardinia from having to go to this page, what we have here is a success in communication. A cursory scan reveals books dating from 1639 to 2008, all - ALL! - downloadable at no charge. The site also houses audio, video, and images, presumably likewise free for the taking, It's not even necessary to log on! Needless to say, you'll search long and hard to find a publication not at least peripherally related to Sardinia. But, WTF you want for nothing?! Meanwhile, American law is so oriented toward getting paid that Google Books can't provide free access to a book from any date, if there's a reprint under copyright in existence, and there's talk of even making it possible to re-copyright material already out of copyright, including orphaned works, under current law, -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 05:29:40 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:29:40 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240457.q0O4Wve6025810@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't make it based on law. The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. VS-) On 1/23/2012 11:57 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ... > > Meanwhile, American law is so oriented toward getting paid that Google > Books can't provide free access to a book from any date, if there's a > reprint under copyright in existence, and there's talk of even making > it possible to re-copyright material already out of copyright, > including orphaned works, under current law,... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 07:38:44 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:38:44 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240558.q0O5gCf5006516@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, and the fact that nothing like it is available in the United States at any price, let alone at no price, not inconsequential editorializing as to why that is the case.. Needless to say, the Sardinian site is under the auspices of the regional government. Or, as some might look at it, the money is taken from the pockets of the Italian taxpayer by a government controlled by tax-&-spend liberals with nothing but contempt for the publishing business and brick-&-mortar bookstores and even hard-copy libraries. And, once again, think "truthiness," not "error." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure > how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain > cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the > re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is > only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of > some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any > case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't > make it based on law. > > The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has > already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies > to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the > US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). > So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the > unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright > statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending > the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 07:46:05 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 02:46:05 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201231403.q0N4VdbH026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? ROBIN HAMILTON > Subject: ? ? ? no more strict deadlines!! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this w= > ould intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
 =3D"http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/">http://reklam= > makinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my li= > fe
you can get the hang of it quickly.

=0A > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:07:38 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:07:38 -0500 Subject: The meaning is clear. Message-ID: "? has 500,000 employees in China and (obviously) _much fewer_ in the United States." There's no reason to bother to distinguish between _much_ and _many_. Or was his intent to write, "? _many less_ ?"? About which there can be no argument, of course, the distinction between _fewer_ and _less_ being obsolete. Youneverknow, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jan 24 08:19:47 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:19:47 -0800 Subject: The meaning is clear. In-Reply-To: <201201240808.q0O5fOk4030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would have marked "many" incorrect and "much" correct in that sense as an adverb that intensifies the meaning of "fewer." But then again, I have trouble keeping "fewer" and "less" straight (and I don't really care anyway).... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Jan 24, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "? has 500,000 employees in China and (obviously) _much fewer_ in the > United States." > > There's no reason to bother to distinguish between _much_ and _many_. > > Or was his intent to write, > > "? _many less_ ?"? > > About which there can be no argument, of course, the distinction > between _fewer_ and _less_ being obsolete. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:45:16 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:45:16 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201240746.q0O5fOiq030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Worm generated spam, Wilson... Just ignore. VS-) On 1/24/2012 2:46 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > wrote: >>

whats up.
life has thrown plenty of obstacles my way I thought this w= >> ould intrigue you I was in desperate need of an alternative...
> =3D"http://reklammakinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/">http://reklam= >> makinesi.com/breakingnews/98GeoffreyThomas/ im back in control of my li= >> fe
you can get the hang of it quickly.

=0A >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 24 08:47:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 03:47:51 -0500 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240739.q0O5gCvr009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just words, Wilson. I did say the statements were not entirely accurate--never claimed they were in error. VS-) On 1/24/2012 2:38 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed > to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of > Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, and the fact that nothing like > it is available in the United States at any price, let alone at no > price, not inconsequential editorializing as to why that is the case.. > > Needless to say, the Sardinian site is under the auspices of the > regional government. Or, as some might look at it, the money is taken > from the pockets of the Italian taxpayer by a government controlled by > tax-&-spend liberals with nothing but contempt for the publishing > business and brick-&-mortar bookstores and even hard-copy libraries. > > And, once again, think "truthiness," not "error." > > -- > -Wilson > > On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> Well, the first part has nothing to do with the law--and I am not sure >> how accurate it is in any case. A reprint of a work in public domain >> cannot remove that work from the public domain as it does not grant the >> re-printer the copyright for the original text. The new copyright is >> only for any additional material--be it preface, historical essay of >> some sort, commentary and artwork. Index is not copyrightable in any >> case, even if it is new. So, if Google makes that decision, they don't >> make it based on law. >> >> The second part is also not entirely accurate either. The case has >> already been decided. The rules are essentially set. And it only applies >> to a small fraction of works that have slipped out of copyright in the >> US but are still under copyright elsewhere (and not even all of those). >> So the problem is not with the law per se so much as with the >> unnecessary complexity previously introduced into the copyright >> statutes. That fixed now, Congress can proceed to finally stop extending >> the copyright period beyond any sensible limit. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 24 13:54:06 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:54:06 -0800 Subject: OT: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: <201201240739.q0O5gChh006516@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > I was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed > to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of > Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, ... yes, a region of Italy, but also an island (a big island) considerably removed from the mainland -- close to the French island of Corsica, but geographically remote from the rest of Italy. also the home of the Romance language Sardinian (as well as the national language Italian). it's one of the five regions (of 20) with autonomous status -- essentially home rule -- because of their linguistic and cultural differences; all five are off on the edges of the country (three in the far north, Sicily in the far south, Sardinia in the far west). so it's not surprising that the regional government supports indigenous cultural resources like the Sardinian Digital Library. (compare, say, the Welsh Folk Museum, the Geriadur Prifysgol Cymru (Dictionary of the Welsh Language), the Scottish National Dictionary, etc.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 24 13:56:03 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 05:56:03 -0800 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <201201240746.q0O5gCwH009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > wrote: ... > ? spam. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:14:03 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:14:03 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" Message-ID: From The Chronicle of Higher Education, an article by Lucy Ferriss about "Pootwattle the Virtual Academic" ?, "created and managed by the writing program at the University of Chicago. ... Pootwattle generates random sentences from phrases 'common in many academic fields'." http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/01/19/palling-around-with-pootwattle/ Term-paper- and scholarly-essay-writing time-saver? There's also Smedley, the Virtual Critic?, who generates review comments. I refrain from commenting on his vast benefit to time-challenged professors and teaching assistants. The article's passage on a Foucaultian (or is that Foucultish?) generated sentence is perceptive. :-) Ferriss gives examples of initial sentences from (real) academic articles she selected randomly, and discusses why they may impress readers as pootwattle. Footnote: In response to an inquiry about "the linguistic history of the name 'Pootwattle'," a writer claims, perhaps facetiously: "The verb "pootle" shows up in Margaret Atwood's most recent book (IN OTHER WORLDS) in its present participial form. The OED actually defines it: "To move or travel in a leisurely manner." The first citation is from D. E. Westlake. "Poot," another verb of recent vintage, is another possibility. Again, from the OED, "To break wind. Also: to defecate"." True (at least of the OED; I haven't checked Atwood). But surely instead of poot[watt]le", the origin lies in "poo-twattle". (Unfortunately, the desired meaning of "poo" does not appear in the OED, despite their having passed through the P's in their alphabetical march. I cite instead Urban Dictionary.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:20:21 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:20:21 -0500 Subject: OT squared: How come WE don't get on-line libraries like this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1/24/2012 02:38 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >was purposely aiming only for truthiness. Besides, what was supposed >to catch your attention was the existence of the Digital Library of >Sardinia, a backwater region of Italy, ... If Sardinia is anything like (the reputation of) Sicily (and I think it actually was, in the 18th century at least), boy are you in trouble, Wilson! Just think of Sophia Petrillo. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:30:24 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:30:24 -0500 Subject: no more strict deadlines!! In-Reply-To: <3AB2AC30-BA1A-4DA6-A380-D24DD3A848FF@stanford.edu> Message-ID: In a personal message yesterday, Jesse informed me that ROBIN HAMILTON, although a real person (at least when he did not spell his name in all caps), has been removed from ADS-L. Likely his email address and address list have been captured. Joel At 1/24/2012 08:56 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Jan 23, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:03 AM, ROBIN HAMILTON > > wrote: ... > > > ? > >spam. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 15:53:36 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:53:36 -0500 Subject: ""Korchevatel" (transliterated from the Russian) Message-ID: How words acquire new meanings -- and a new OTY. (Namely, quoting the article: "anti-scientific event of the year" (or is it "scientific anti-event of the year"?).) The intro to a "SCIgen story"-- Rooter invades Russia Thursday, January 8, 2009, 12:25 PM There's an amazing new SCIgen story out of Russia. Below is the full story, in the words of the mastermind himself, Mikhail Gelfand. But first, the executive summary: * The original Rooter paper, translated into Russian, was accepted into a nationally accredited journal. * The paper received mostly positive reviews. * After the revelation that the paper was fake, the story became a national news sensation. Mikhail even appeared on radio and TV shows. * The Russian word for "rooter" ("Korchevatel", a kind of machine that digs up roots) became synonymous with nonsense and low-quality science. Now enjoy the story of Korchevatel, as written by Mikhail Gelfand: ... At http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/blog/ Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 24 18:04:27 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: Angolan, n. and adj. Message-ID: Surely needs attention, and a search for "Angolian" as well. A. n. has two quotations, 1600 and 1976. The slave trade will provide many in the intervening centuries. The definition "A native or inhabitant of Angola, a republic (formerly a Portuguese colony) in south-western Africa." might require extension to the region rather than being limited to a former Portuguese colony. B. adj.'s earliest quotation is 1875. The "Angolan language" can be found in 1724 in Charles B. Johnson's (or is it Daniel Defoe's) "A General History of the Pyrates, from their First Rise", and "A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious Pyrates" (GBooks, also held by ECCO). There is "Angolan Woman" in 1741: James Parsons, "A Mechanical and Critical Enquiry into the Nature or Hermaphrodites" (GBooks). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Jan 24 20:43:30 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:43:30 -0500 Subject: Angolan, n. and adj. In-Reply-To: <201201241804.q0O5gCd1009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Surely needs attention, and a search for "Angolian" as well. I'm sure you won't have to wait too long, since the OED3 revision project has looped back to the "A" entries (the AA-AEVUM range was revised for the Dec. 2011 quarterly update). > A. n. has two quotations, 1600 and 1976. The slave trade will > provide many in the intervening centuries. The definition "A native > or inhabitant of Angola, a republic (formerly a Portuguese colony) in > south-western Africa." might require extension to the region rather > than being limited to a former Portuguese colony. > > B. adj.'s earliest quotation is 1875. The "Angolan language" can be > found in 1724 in Charles B. Johnson's (or is it Daniel Defoe's) "A > General History of the Pyrates, from their First Rise", and "A > General History of the Robberies and Murders of the Most Notorious > Pyrates" (GBooks, also held by ECCO). There is "Angolan Woman" in > 1741: James Parsons, "A Mechanical and Critical Enquiry into the > Nature or Hermaphrodites" (GBooks). -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 00:26:13 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:26:13 +0000 Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers In-Reply-To: <936223E39BA6D842A27F2009162ACC6A03ED7360@x10-mbx7.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Some may be interested that Google has provided a list of titles from their short-lived program to digitize newspapers: http://news.google.com/newspapers Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Jan 25 00:45:07 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: Backformed compound verb: "pleasure read" Message-ID: Another example of the pattern discussed here numerous times, of reanalysis plus backformation to create compound verb. From my son's language arts teacher, in an email: The "Read In" is a period where the students camp out around the room and pleasure read. Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 25 01:17:30 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:17:30 -0800 Subject: tipping point Message-ID: article by Henry Chu, distributed by the Los Angeles Times, on Big Ben's tilting reads: The tilt (0.26 degrees northwest) lies at the tipping point, as it were, at wheich the lean becomes visible to the naked eye... The tipping point is the tilt beyond which Big Ben's tower falls over. I say that even the "as it were" caveat does not justify using "tilting point" to mean "first visible tilt", but who listens to me? - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Wed Jan 25 01:28:14 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:28:14 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Bagel" Message-ID: >From two recent posts on the subject: http://goo.gl/d0LUb Jewish Encyclopedia. Volume IV. 1912 Cookery. p. 257/1 > The village folk of some parts of eastern Europe have still another > form of soup, which is made by putting crisp "beigel" (round cracknel) > into hot water and adding butter. I think this should count as a further antedating of "bagel" (OED 1919): 1908 _American Israelite_ 3 Dec. (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) Another proverb that I have noted from my readings of modern Yiddish literature is, "Beigel (roll) and butter you want; to go to Cheder you do not want," which means that one would like to have the benefit of work, but does not want to work. Fred Shapiro I submitted the Jewish Encyclopedia usage of "beigel" to Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster about 8 years ago. She ruled it was not an antedating since it referred to a "cracknel" which was obviously not the modern bagel. So I suppose we will have to go with Fred Shapiro's antedating, since he is after all our expert on Yale lox. _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 03:37:12 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:37:12 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" Message-ID: pastrami (OED 1914) 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 03:44:28 2012 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 03:44:28 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E9D14@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: After sending this e-mail, I notice that the wonderful website barrypopik.com has an April 2, 1909 citation with the spelling _pastroma_. Fred Shapiro ________________________________ From: Shapiro, Fred Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:37 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: jester at panix.com; bapopik at aol.com Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" pastrami (OED 1914) 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 06:48:26 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:48:26 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" In-Reply-To: <201201241514.q0OF48c2030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "Poot," another verb of recent vintage, is another possibility. Again, from the OED, "To break wind..." Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" Beans! Beans! The musical fruit The more you eat The more you _toot_ and who are unaware of the existence of "poot," being too young to be familiar with the legendary Pogo. Since _poot_ didn't occur with the meaning, "fart," in the comic-strip, being used only as onomatopoeia, I've long wondered whether Walt Kelly's use of the word was in-joke or coincidence. Since the word is known to the OED, perhaps "in-joke" is the way to go. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 11:36:48 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:36:48 +0000 Subject: The future global English accent - Globish In-Reply-To: <201201250344.q0OLu94g030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Globish is pronounced ~Glubish. This ties in with English as a lingua franca (ELF) ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=054zM_ON_z8&feature=player_embedded ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 25 13:51:41 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:51:41 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201232056.q0NGNaBg032145@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted by the Marines? --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 14:16:02 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:16:02 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY9D012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie, all I know is that "HOO-rah!" (more usually, I think, "OO-rah!") appears to be a post-Vietnam development. I don't associate it with Vietnam War writing. I don't believe I encountered it (in the media, of course) before ca1990, and I don't believe I've ever seen/heard it in Vietnam context. Same goes for the Army's "HOO-ah!" While we're at it, I noticed that the SC audience cheering Newt's slam at the media the other night included a fair number of people (men only?) who cheered with a deep, grunting "Wunh! Wunh! Wunh! Wunh!" like they were receiving the Heimlich maneuver. We've all heard this at football games, but any appearances in print must be pretty recent. Like "Yee-haw!" maybe it'll some day be claimed as the "real rebel yell." I certainly never heard it before the late '70s - at the earliest. But maybe I didn't go to enough games. In fact. I'm sure of it. JL On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: rebel yell and yeehaw > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted by the Marines? > > --Charlie > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 15:04:35 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:04:35 +0000 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201231854.q0NGNann027352@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: for pronunciation of "au jus" thefreedictionary.com has ~oe ~zhue (~oe as in "toe", ~zh as in "vision" ~vizhin, ~ue as in "true". There is no good way in English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't all English speakers have that sound in their inventory? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/au#Pronunciation_2 > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:53 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > > Is the question here really about the "open o" in the Frenchy word, whether those (Americans) who lack that vowell will hear it--or choose to pronounce it--as /a/ or /o/? > > > > --Charlie > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > On 1/22/2012 12:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I've gone back and forth. I'm never sure which has more currency. > >> > >> The Daily Kos instructs the public with its glossary to say "ah": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/13/1044844/-Basic-Culinary-Definitions,-Part-I > >> > >> And at http://foodwishes.blogspot.com/2010/12/ah-oh-ah-beef-au-jus.html, Chef John says that "ah" is how he grew up saying it. > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > >> > >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> > >>> Arby's has been advertising for years the serving of "au jus" that > >>> comes with its roast beef sandwiches. > >>> > >>> The TV commercials used to say "oh zhoo." > >>> > >>> In the latest version, however, the announcer clearly says "ah zhoo." In > >>> fact, the first two or three times I heard it, I though he was trying > >>> to say "Anjou," which made even less sense. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jennifer.cramer at UKY.EDU Wed Jan 25 15:08:49 2012 From: jennifer.cramer at UKY.EDU (Cramer, Jennifer S) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:08:49 -0500 Subject: New MA in Linguistics! Message-ID: Hello all! I wanted to send a little note to this list about a new MA in Linguistics to be offered at the University of Kentucky beginning August 2012 (pending Senate approval). It was mentioned on the LinguistList today (http://linguistlist.org/issues/23/23-394.html). Please consider directing interested students to our website (https://linguistics.as.uky.edu/maltt) or have them contact me (jennifer.cramer at uky.edu) or our program director, Andrew Hippisley (andrew.hippisley at uky.edu), for more information. The application deadline for next AY is March 15, so students will need to hurry, but we have some funding opportunities for qualified students. Also, if you would like a copy of the brochure in hard copy, please email me off this list with your snail mail info. Best, Jennifer Cramer Linguistics Program University of Kentucky 1371 Patterson Office Tower Lexington, KY 40506-0027 jennifer.cramer at uky.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:13:08 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:13:08 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251504.q0P4ZYQt012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > There is no good way in > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > ???? "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign loan words. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:15:57 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:15:57 -0600 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201250649.q0P4ZY3b031607@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, > there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" > > Beans! Beans! > The musical fruit > The more you eat > The more you _toot_ > > I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". And you left of the next verse: The more you poot, The better you feel. So have some beans At every meal. And there is at least one more version: Beans, Beans Good for your heart. The more you eat, The more you fart. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jan 25 15:20:33 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:20:33 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71EA0D42F@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "au jus" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > There is no good way in > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > ???? "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign loan words. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:20:45 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:45 -0600 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY8b009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > Jonathan, you if anyone would perhaps know the history of the exclamatory > "Hoo'-rah" (with stress on the first syllable), commonly associated with the > Marine Corps--for instnace, as a Corpsal response to "Semper Fi!" Persumably > it's derived from a variant pronunciation of "Hurrah/Hurray" (with stress on > the second syllable), but when did it become separately lexified and adopted > by the Marines? > > I'm pretty sure they didn't use the expression in "Gomer Pyle USMC". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 15:23:49 2012 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:23:49 -0500 Subject: follow-up to ADS Portland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No interest here in double/triple modals? Bethany On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Bethany Dumas wrote: > local column: > http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/08/grammar-gremlins-might-could-shouldnt/ > > my response: > http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/jan/17/letter-might-could-meant-politeness/ > > Bethany > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:24:19 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:24:19 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251520.q0P4ZYHF009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE So it is, as are leisure, treasure, brazier, and Hoosier. I stand (or sit, as the case may be) corrected. I should think longer and post shorter. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Baker, John > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Jan 25 15:34:31 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:34:31 -0600 Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201250026.q0OLu9q2030472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE They seemed to have pulled the "Advanced Search" page for Google News Archive -- does anyone know how to limit a GNA search to a particular paper? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 6:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Google Digitized Newspapers > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Some may be interested that Google has provided a list of titles from their > short-lived program to digitize newspapers: > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jan 25 15:38:03 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251524.q0P4ZYHp009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill AMRDEC Mullins" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So it is, as are leisure, treasure, brazier, and Hoosier. I stand (or sit, as the case may be) corrected. I should think longer and post shorter. > -----Original Message----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Wed Jan 25 16:08:04 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:08:04 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251513.q0P4ZYSJ012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill, It's native for an earlier /zj/ intervocalically as in "vision"--and yes, I know that's a French loan too, but it was taken in with /zj/, as the modern French still shows. It alternates with more nativized /dZ/ at the end of words in rouge, garage (the last is /gaerIdZ to the Brits). Initially, though, it's in all foreign loans. Paul Johnston On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: Re: "au jus" >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ >> >> There is no good way in >> English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English >> > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jan 25 16:27:02 2012 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:27:02 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA3E9D14@x10-mbx3.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > pastrami (OED 1914) > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) > (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, > Pastrami and Tongues. Oh yeah? 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Wed Jan 25 17:15:37 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:15:37 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251351.q0P4ZY9D012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What does "Corpsal" mean? Dani Nussbaum ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:20:34 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:20:34 -0800 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251715.q0P4ZYfh031607@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:25:32 2012 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:25:32 +0000 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251720.q0PFWruh012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That was my feeble little attempt at a joke: "Corpsal"/"choral" --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Jan 25, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Dan Nussbaum wrote: > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Jan 25 17:29:18 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:29:18 -0500 Subject: rebel yell and yeehaw In-Reply-To: <201201251720.q0PFWruh012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's a homophone of the scientific name for 'blood cell'. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ----- Original Message ----- > > What does "Corpsal" mean? pretty clearly, 'having to do with the (Marine) Corps'. but how is it pronounced? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Jan 25 18:12:53 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:12:53 +0000 Subject: gazebo antedated (?) to 1741 Message-ID: ....Unto the painful summit of this height A gay Gazebo does our Steps invite. >From this, when favour'd with a Cloudless Day, We fourteen Counties all around survey. Th' increasing prospect tires the wandring Eyes: Hills peep o'er Hills, and mix with distant Skies.... An essay on the pleasures and advantages of female literature...and three Poetic Landscapes / Wetenhall Wilkes 1741 English Book iv, 5-77 p. ; 21 cm. page 76 London : Printed for the author, and sold by T. Cooper and R. Caswell, Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 18:56:45 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:56:45 -0500 Subject: gazebo antedated (?) to 1741 In-Reply-To: <201201251813.q0P4ZYWx009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen Goranson wrote: > ....Unto the painful summit of this height > A gay Gazebo does our Steps invite. > From this, when favour'd with a Cloudless Day, > We fourteen Counties all around survey. > Th' increasing prospect tires the wandring Eyes: > Hills peep o'er Hills, and mix with distant Skies.... > > An essay on the pleasures and advantages of female literature...and three Poetic Landscapes / > Wetenhall Wilkes > 1741 > English Book iv, 5-77 p. ; 21 cm. page 76 > London : Printed for the author, and sold by T. Cooper and R. Caswell, Nice cite. It looks like a commenter with the handle MMcM at the Languagehat blog agrees it is an antedating. He or she found it in the ECCO database and said it was not in GB. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003370.php Now Google Books has it. http://books.google.com/books?id=HKBbAAAAQAAJ&q=Gazebo#v=snippet& ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jan 25 20:24:42 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:24:42 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <719BCEAC2BE6D34E92A2F832F071A71EA0D430@RDMR-EX20.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, >> there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" >> >> Beans! Beans! >> The musical fruit >> The more you eat >> The more you _toot_ >> >> > > I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". > > And you left of the next verse: > > The more you poot, > The better you feel. > So have some beans > At every meal. > > Well, if we're collecting variants, mine definitely included "toot" rather than "poot", and the second verse went The more you toot, The better you feel, So eat beans with every meal. But I've also heard something like the below, viz. Beans, beans Good for the heart. The more you eat, The more you fart. The more you fart, The better you feel. So eat beans with every meal. LH > And there is at least one more version: > > Beans, Beans > Good for your heart. > The more you eat, > The more you fart. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 22:12:33 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:12:33 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201251627.q0P4ZYNX009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess I waited too long with my 1907 post. But I have some other things to say on the subject--when done, I'll post it. Never hurts to have another early citation. Just one word, for now: basturma. More on the subject later. VS-) On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > pastrami (OED 1914) > > > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) > > (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, > > Pastrami and Tongues. > > Oh yeah? > > 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked > meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, > pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. > > > http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 23:14:59 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:14:59 -0500 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel Goldwyn 1943) Message-ID: If you have a message, call Western Union. If you've got a message, send a telegram. The lines above are classic rebuffs delivered by hardheaded Hollywood producers to idealistic writers who have created didactic scripts for plays or movies. The words have been attributed to a variety of people and many of them were not Hollywood producers. The Quote Verifier gives this list: Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando, Dorothy Parker, George S. Kaufman, Ernest Hemingway, George Bernard Shaw, and Samuel Goldwyn. The Yale Book of Quotations has a 1954 cite with an attribution to Moss Hart. Barry Popik gives a 1953 cite for Moss Hart. Building on this valuable work I've been able to push the date back a bit for this type of saying. Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] NEW YORK, April 16.?Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the comedy. Messages are for Western Union." [End Excerpt] Cite: 1944 June 12, LIFE, Close-Up: Humphrey Bogart by George Frazier, Quote Page 55, Time Inc., New York. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=fU8EAAAAMBAJ&q=%22a+pain%22#v=snippet& [Begin Excerpt] Actually, Bogart has less ham in him than almost any other movie star. Completely candid in his self-appraisal, he has an active grudge against performers who take themselves too seriously. People like Paul Muni, whom he suspects of nursing the conviction that their work must convey a message," give him a pain. "If they have a message," says Bogart, "they should call Western Union." [End Excerpt] Cite: 1945 April 13, Sherbrooke Telegram, "Gag-of-the-day", Page 6, Column 2, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada. (Google News Archive) [Begin excerpt] Singer Dick Haymes knows a prominent Hollywood producer who ordered one of his writers to dig up a script for one of his expensive contract stars. A couple of days later the writer popped into the producer's office. "I've got just the story", he enthused. "Not only is it sure boxoffice, but it also carries a great message." "Look," grunted the producer. "All I want is a story. Let Western Union take care of the messages." [End excerpt] Cite: 1951 May 17, Boston Globe, The Generals' Memories by Ed Sullivan, Page 21, Column 1, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Begin excerpt] Every time a Yip Harburg musical comes to town, playgoers must examine it for a message. Yip never being content to let Western Union handle messages. "Flahooley," mighty cute in spots, is embarrassed by its message so confused in its symbolism that I defy the Joint Chiefs of Staff to decipher it. [End excerpt] Cite: 1951 June 07, Trenton Evening Times, Hollywood On Upbeat by Bob Thomas, Page 10, Column 5, Trenton, New Jersey. (GenealogyBank) [Begin excerpt] "The pictures that are selling in the current market are those which bear no problems." This means that the future films will place the accent on music, comedy and adventure. As the old Hollywood saying goes "Let Western Union carry the messages" [End excerpt] Cite: Circa 1953, "Some enchanted evenings: the story of Rodgers and Hammerstein" by Deems Taylor, GB and HT Page 232, Harper, New York, (Google Books snippet; HathiTrust match; Not yet verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] Moss Hart is credited with giving the following advice to budding playwrights: "If you have a message, call Western Union." If he really said that, it is a somewhat cynical and curiously inconsistent dictum to come from a man who wrote a musical comedy extolling the virtues of psychoanalysis! [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 25 23:56:34 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 18:56:34 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201231506.q0N4Vdqj026373@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the humidity. 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the humidity." (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) JL On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" > > Fantasy/thriller cliche'. > > 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: > Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you > are _someone_. Who? > > JL > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "rewriting the rules" >> >> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >> years." >> >> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >> >> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >> >> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>> >>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>> a large price tag attached. >>> >>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>> >>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>> helpers back. >>> >>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>> >>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>> >>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>> >>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>> >>>> >>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>> and Affairs." >>>> >>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>> >>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>> >>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>> >>>> From NewspArch: >>>> >>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>> >>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>> >>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>> >>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>> >>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>> of modeling. >>>> >>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>> >>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>> >>>>>> --bgz >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 00:31:06 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:31:06 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201252356.q0PJdiJl012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1824. Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,? Year: 1824 [Begin excerpt] It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks of the rivers, equally warm, .. [End excerpt] Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to contemplate a terrible deed. Date: 1916 April Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness Volume 48 Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 00:42:27 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:42:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 5:12 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I guess I waited too long with my 1907 post. But I have some other things > to say on the subject--when done, I'll post it. Never hurts to have another > early citation. > > Just one word, for now: basturma. More on the subject later. > > VS-) Funny you should mention it. I was going to say something earlier about the link between basturma (in one of several variant spellings I've seen), which I've been served in Turkish restaurants under the name of pastIrmI (or something like that, with those Turkish back /i/s), whither it may have been snuck in by ripping off Armenians, and pastrami, since they both involve dried spiced salted meat. I vaguely recall posting about the connection here decades ago after encountering pastIrmI, and probably being informed by Barry Popik what the real story is. And now, I see others are making the connection in various ways, e.g. http://www.russelnod.com/2010/10/24/bastruma-the-intrepid-traveller-explores-the-roots-of-pastrami/ (apparently inventing a new, nonce spelling for the title of the piece, but not in the text, where it does indeed appear as "basturma"). Anyway, I await VS's post eagerly. LH > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 03:37:12AM +0000, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>> pastrami (OED 1914) >>> >>> 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) >>> (adv't) Margolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, >>> Pastrami and Tongues. >> >> Oh yeah? >> >> 1899 _Jewish South_ 12 May 1 (advt.) S. Spector... Fresh beef and smoked >> meats... Smoked beef, smoked tongues, smoked shoulders, salami, >> pastrami, rendered beef fat, &c. >> >> >> http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn94051168/1899-05-12/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Pastrami?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=pastrami&y=8&x=12&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0 >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 00:44:56 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:44:56 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". LH On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 01:04:17 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:04:17 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <2032779643.200857.1327505883257.JavaMail.root@starship.mer it.edu> Message-ID: At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: >Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. >Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're >certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 01:05:33 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:05:33 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201260045.q0PJdiPV012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH wrote: > Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". At Harvard in 1974 they made it half way to that joke. Date: 1974 December 12 Periodical: The Harvard Crimson Title: Antiwar Attics: Lysistrata by Aristophanes directed by Sam Guckenheimer tonight, tomorrow and Saturday at 8:30 p.m. at Dunster House Author: Paul K. Rowe http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1974/12/12/antiwar-attics-pbnbone-of-the-pleasures/ And jokes the cast occasionally added--like one Athenian's wife disdainful "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"--hit the spot. When one of the women asks one of the men if it isn't terribly hot outside, he answers, "It's not the heat, it's the tumidity." Not every laugh is as literate as that, but most of them will do. Garson > On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >> >> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >> >> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >> humidity. >> >> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >> humidity." >> >> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>> >>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>> >>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>> are _someone_. Who? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>> >>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eigh ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jan 26 01:29:49 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:29:49 -0500 Subject: "au jus" In-Reply-To: <201201260104.q0PMAPvp009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: MW3 gives /ou Zus/, /ou dZus/. I don't like these, so I don't use them, but I suppose they are usual? I don't see anything wrong with a French or French-ish pronunciation like /o Zy/ (also in MW3). I might say it, or, depending on my environment, I might say /O dZVs/, "aw juss" (especially in "with au jus"). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 01:38:35 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:38:35 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:05 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > LH wrote: >> Or as Safire memorably put it (when discussing how you can detect obscenity), "It's not the teat, it's the tumidity". > > At Harvard in 1974 they made it half way to that joke. > > Date: 1974 December 12 > Periodical: The Harvard Crimson > Title: Antiwar Attics: Lysistrata by Aristophanes directed by Sam > Guckenheimer tonight, tomorrow and Saturday at 8:30 p.m. at Dunster > House > Author: Paul K. Rowe > http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1974/12/12/antiwar-attics-pbnbone-of-the-pleasures/ > > And jokes the cast occasionally added--like one Athenian's wife > disdainful "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"--hit the spot. When > one of the women asks one of the men if it isn't terribly hot outside, > he answers, "It's not the heat, it's the tumidity." Not every laugh is > as literate as that, but most of them will do. > > Garson Let's see if Safire's improvement on that line can be documented? Ah, here it is, more recent than I'd remembered, in his "Ode on a G-String" column: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/04/magazine/on-language-ode-on-a-g-string.html And I'd misremembered his original, which was "It ain't the teat, it's the tumidity". Curiously, one of the other "tumidity" hits that came up in a search at the Times site was a 1927 article about a declaration by Joseph P. Tumulty (not "Tumidity") that the Democrats would have a tougher time defeating Frank Lowden than Calvin Coolidge in the 1928 election. Guess we'll never know. But there's another yet article in which Tumulty > Tumidity thanks presumably to OCR rather than any particular scandal of the era. LH > >> On Jan 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >>> >>> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >>> >>> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >>> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >>> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >>> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >>> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >>> humidity. >>> >>> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >>> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >>> humidity." >>> >>> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>>> >>>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>>> >>>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>>> are _someone_. Who? >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>>> >>>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eigh > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jan 26 01:41:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 20:41:53 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260104.q0Q14Htu007968@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: >> Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. >> Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're >> certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. > > Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for > the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from > "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. > as in "I'm not speaking azure pal, I'm speaking azure dad"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jan 26 02:26:31 2012 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 02:26:31 +0000 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 1916 example from The Smart Set implies that blaming the humidity rather than the heat was an all-too-popular clich? of the time, an impression strengthened by the 1917 Vanity Fair citation. The implication is that the phrase must have achieved broad popularity shortly before that time. Perhaps 1915 had a particularly humid summer. For example, the Boston Evening Globe (Aug. 13, 1915) (Access Newspaper Archive) advises, "No folks, it isn't excessive heat that's causing you so much trouble today. It is the doings of our old friend Lieut Col Humidity - the fellow who used to be called Gen Humidity, but whose former title has expired of old age." Incidentally, I took a look at some more pages of The Smart Set, which Garson found. It's truly awful, and it makes me think less of H.L. Mencken for having edited it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Garson O'Toole Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:31 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Fun with phrases Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1824. Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,. Year: 1824 [Begin excerpt] It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks of the rivers, equally warm, .. [End excerpt] Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to contemplate a terrible deed. Date: 1916 April Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness Volume 48 Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." > > No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. > > 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: > typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look > legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that > dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting > you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the > humidity. > > 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear > it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the > humidity." > > (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >> >> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >> >> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >> are _someone_. Who? >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "rewriting the rules" >>> >>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>> years." >>> >>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>> >>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>> >>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>> wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>> >>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>> a large price tag attached. >>>> >>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>> >>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>> helpers back. >>>> >>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>> >>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>> >>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>> >>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>> and Affairs." >>>>> >>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>> >>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>> >>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>> >>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>> >>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>> >>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>> >>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>> >>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>> of modeling. >>>>> >>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 02:35:25 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: Neologism: physible - from PirateBay Message-ID: Printers that allow the creation and reproduction of 3-dimensional objects have been growing in popularity. Wikipedia has some background information about 3D printing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing The Pirate Bay is a famous and/or notorious website that eases the sharing of data. The administrators at Pirate Bay have decided to start facilitating the sharing of data about 3-dimensional printable objects. They also decided to create a buzzword: physible In my opinion the printing 0f 3-dimensional objects is a precursor to more general forms of 3-dimensional assembly. These capabilities will be enormously important in the future. But I do not know if the word "physible" is going to make it. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/25/3-d-printing-copyright-issues-enter-peer-to-peet-networks/ http://thepiratebay.org/blog/203 [Begin excerpt] Evolution: New category. We're always trying to foresee the future a bit here at TPB. One of the things that we really know is that we as a society will always share. Digital communication has made that a lot easier and will continue to do so. And after the internets evolutionized data to go from analog to digital, it's time for the next step. ? We believe that the next step in copying will be made from digital form into physical form. It will be physical objects. Or as we decided to call them: Physibles. Data objects that are able (and feasible) to become physical. We believe that things like three dimensional printers, scanners and such are just the first step. We believe that in the nearby future you will print your spare sparts for your vehicles. You will download your sneakers within 20 years. ? We believe that the future of sharing is about physible data. We're thinking of temporarily renaming ourselves to The Product Bay - but we had no graphical artist around to make a logo. In the future, we'll download one. [End excerpt] [The term "sparts" is probably supposed to be "parts".] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 03:15:32 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:15:32 -0500 Subject: Fun with phrases In-Reply-To: <201201260226.q0Q2KsYB012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your response John. I think the comment about heat versus humidity can be pushed back. Here is some evidence that the general expression was a cliche (to some) by 1909. Journal: Industrial Engineering Title: An Improvement in Heating and Ventilating Date: 1909 June http://books.google.com/books?id=bufNAAAAMAAJ&q=familiar#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] That high relative humidity combined with high temperature and with low carbon dioxide content, is almost unbearable we know. For instance, during some of the hot summer months. "It is the humidity, not the heat," is a familiar expression. That high carbon dioxide content, without high temperature or humidity is disagreebale, we do not know. [End excerpt] [sic disagreebale] Here is a prototypical explanation in 1894. Title: The Interior Date: 1894 July 5 http://books.google.com/books?id=dBBQAAAAYAAJ&q=humidity#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We left Chicago on the 22nd of June, I believe it was, and the city was sweltering in heat and humidity. It was not the heat so much as the humidity. If the air be dry, one can stand a heat of ninety degrees or over. If it be wet, we swelter at eighty degrees. The reason is that a dry air immediately vaporizes one's perspiration, ... [End excerpt] On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The 1916 example from The Smart Set implies that blaming the humidity rather than the heat was an all-too-popular clich? of the time, an impression strengthened by the 1917 Vanity Fair citation. The implication is that the phrase must have achieved broad popularity shortly before that time. Perhaps 1915 had a particularly humid summer. For example, the Boston Evening Globe (Aug. 13, 1915) (Access Newspaper Archive) advises, "No folks, it isn't excessive heat that's causing you so much trouble today. It is the doings of our old friend Lieut Col Humidity - the fellow who used to be called Gen Humidity, but whose former title has expired of old age." > > > Incidentally, I took a look at some more pages of The Smart Set, which Garson found. It's truly awful, and it makes me think less of H.L. Mencken for having edited it. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:31 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fun with phrases > > Thanks Jon. Some blame must be allocated to the Encyclopaedia > Britannica of 1824. > > Title Encyclopaedia Britannica: or, A dictionary of arts and sciences,. > Year: 1824 > [Begin excerpt] > It is clear, that not the heat but the humidity of the climate creates > the. numerous debilitating infirmities of these plains ; for in > Maracaybo, Santa Marta, Rio de la Hacha, and other places on the banks > of the rivers, equally warm, .. > [End excerpt] > > Years later when this cliche was well established it drove a man to > contemplate a terrible deed. > > Date: 1916 April > Title: The Smart Set: A Magazine of Cleverness > Volume 48 > Story Title: The Murder of Julius K. Higgins > Author: Maurice Bowman Phipps > http://books.google.com/books?id=R3dHAAAAYAAJ&q=%22heat+he%22#v=snippet& > [Begin excerpt] > It was when he told me, in strict confidence, that it was not the heat > he minded but the humidity that I decided to murder him, and to murder > him at once if I did not wish to lose the twelve-forty-five. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "It isn't the heat. It's the humidity." >> >> No 19th C. GB or NewspArch hits. >> >> 1917 ad for _Vanity Fair_ magazine in _House & Garden_ [GB snippet: >> typeface and ref. to Plattsburg army training camp make it look >> legit]: Let other people restate the safe-and-sane truths that >> dinner is their best meal; that if you saw that sunset in a painting >> you wouldn't believe it; and that it isn't the heat, it's the >> humidity. >> >> 1920 _Miami Herald_ (June 18) [Am. Hist. Newsp.] 6: ...and we swear >> it; we/ Have never had to say, "It's not/ The heat. It's the >> humidity." >> >> (Most recent OED "humidity" is 1871.) >> >> JL >> >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "Who _are_ you? (I mean) _really_?" >>> >>> Fantasy/thriller cliche'. >>> >>> 1950 Ray Bradbury _The Martian Chronicles_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>> Doubleday) 153: Who are you, _really_? You can't be Tom, but you >>> are _someone_. Who? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> "rewriting the rules" >>>> >>>> E.g.: "Founder of avant-rock band Pere Ubu, singer David Thomas has >>>> been rewriting the rules of popular music for more than twenty-eight >>>> years." >>>> >>>> It's like throwing the book away and writing your own rules. And >>>> *they* have to play by them! Feels great, doesn't it? >>>> >>>> Far more GB hits in the last ten years than in the preceding hundred. >>>> Very few in the 19th C. What's more important, pre-1980 exx. tend very >>>> strongly to refer to the literal rewriting of actual rules - not the >>>> sort of thing David Thomas has been doing. >>>> >>>> Cf. "(But) the rules have changed!" earlier in this series. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> "comes with a hefty price-tag" >>>>> >>>>> Often the price-tag is figurative. OED has a 1951 "price-tag" >>>>> ('monetary price'), but not in this construction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1957 (Jan. 1) _Directory of Fellowships in the Arts and Sciences_ >>>>> (Washington, D.C.: Assoc of Amer. Colleges) 5 [unverified GB snippet]: >>>>> For the modern graduate student, however, advanced learning comes with >>>>> a large price tag attached. >>>>> >>>>> 1968 _Yuma Daily Sun_ (Nov. 8) 4 [NewspArch]: Marketing a new >>>>> plaything with a hefty price tag. >>>>> >>>>> 1978 C. W. Brister _Take Care_ (Nashville, Tenn.: Broadmann) 45 >>>>> [unverified GB snippet] : Small wonder that heroism comes with a high >>>>> price tag and that fear for one's own safety holds some would-be >>>>> helpers back. >>>>> >>>>> The ref. on GB "1944" to Canadian politicians "Richard Nerysoo" and >>>>> "Stan J. Hovdebo" shows the date to be about 40 years too early. >>>>> >>>>> "With a hefty price-tag" gets close to 11,000,000 raw Google hits. >>>>> >>>>> JL >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> "Welcome to the [wonderful] world of...!" >>>>>> >>>>>> In discussing yesterday's superfailure, somebody on CNN said, "Welcome >>>>>> to the world of politics!" Sarcastically, of course, which is about >>>>>> the only way the phrase is used nowadays outside of the wonderful >>>>>> world of glib, meretricious promotions. >>>>>> >>>>>> GB coughs up some 28,000 [!] exx. of "welcome to the wonderful world of" alone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1937 _Bankers Magazine_ CXXXV 480 [GB Snippet: looks real]: Leslie G. >>>>>> McDouall... delivered an address of "Welcome to the World of Business >>>>>> and Affairs." >>>>>> >>>>>> 1957 Jerry D. Lewis _Great Stories about Show Business_ (N.Y.: Coward >>>>>> McCann) 7: Welcome to the wonderful world of Show Business, where >>>>>> people possess the secret of perpetual motion. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1959 Adrian A. Paradis _Librarians Wanted_ (N.Y.: McKay) 3: Welcome >>>>>> to the World of Libraries. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1960 Charles H. Goren _The Elements of Bridge_ (Garden City, N.Y.: >>>>>> Doubleday) vii: Welcome to the world of bridge. >>>>>> >>>>>> From NewspArch: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1962 _Charleston [W.Va.] Daily Mail_ (June 7) 9: COMPLETELY INSTALLED >>>>>> air conditioning and heating system / Welcome to the world of >>>>>> controlled comfort! Step inside...away from summer's blistering >>>>>> heat...away from winter's chilling blasts. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1965 _Independent Press-Telegram_ [Long Beach, Calif.] (Apr. 4) W-10: >>>>>> Washington State . . . Welcome to the World of Washington. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1967 _Valley News_ [Van Nuys, Calif.] (Nov. 16) 10-B: Welcome to the >>>>>> world of Trans World Airlines. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1969 _Winnipeg Free Press: Weekend Magazine_ (July 19) 16: Welcome to >>>>>> the world of the perambulating pub. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1974 _The Capital_ [Annapolis. Md.] (Apr. 25) 35: Welcome to the world >>>>>> of modeling. >>>>>> >>>>>> I remember hearing it ad nauseam in the mid to late '60s. GB has >>>>>> some "earlier" ones, but they either seem not to fit the present >>>>>> nuance, or else the dates seem dubious. >>>>>> >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1835 E. J. Trelawny _Adventures of a Younger Son_ (London: Bentley) >>>>>>> 257: She had wound herself about my heart till she became a part of >>>>>>> me. Our extreme youth, ardent nature, and solitude, had wrought our >>>>>>> feeling of affection towards each other to an intensity that perhaps >>>>>>> was never equalled, assuredly never surpassed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hot stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>>> Poster: Ben Zimmer >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fun with phrases >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Numerous other exx. of most of these phrases, and some others that are >>>>>>>>> similar ("You'' laugh! You'll cry! You'll love it!" is quite popoular) >>>>>>>>> right into the 21st C. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me," which became a >>>>>>>> sarcastic catchphrase in the late '80s. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --bgz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ben Zimmer >>>>>>>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 26 04:01:41 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:01:41 -0500 Subject: NS = native speaker Message-ID: Has anybody here see or heard this abbreviation used? I've found it in one blog and the Kashmir Journal of Language Research. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Jan 26 04:04:04 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:04:04 -0500 Subject: Sorry, I've just checked JSTOR = lots Message-ID: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:26:51 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:26:51 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": Message-ID: The narrator: "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have _went_ something like this?" Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. Speaking of dying, if not already dead, distinctions, a lot of people don't bother with that between _bring_ and _take_. Deena of Jersey Shore, a tweet quoted in Star: "Hes bringing me to dinner." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:33:13 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:33:13 -0500 Subject: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201252024.q0P4ZYhL009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn > Subject: ? ? ? Re: "Palling Around With Pootwattle" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >> >>> Although I've known _poot_ with this meaning practically from birth, >>> there are some for whom the relevant lexical item is "toot" >>> >>> Beans! Beans! >>> The musical fruit >>> The more you eat >>> The more you _toot_ >>> >>> >> >> I learned the poem with the final word in this verse as "poot". >> >> And you left of the next verse: >> >> The more you poot, >> The better you feel. >> So have some beans >> At every meal. >> >> > > Well, if we're collecting variants, mine definitely included "toot" rather than "poot", and the second verse went > > The more you toot, > The better you feel, > So eat beans with every meal. > > But I've also heard something like the below, viz. > > Beans, beans > Good for the heart. > The more you eat, > The more you fart. > The more you fart, > The better you feel. > So eat beans with every meal. > > LH > >> And there is at least one more version: >> >> Beans, Beans >> Good for your heart. >> The more you eat, >> The more you fart. >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org The more you poot The better you feel We eat beans For every meal! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 04:46:00 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 04:46:00 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251520.q0P4ZYHF009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't "pleasure" a native English example? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 05:16:12 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 05:16:12 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201251513.q0P4ZYSJ012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. I like ~zh to spell that sound and borrowed it for truespel. Here are the top words with the ~zh sound in decending order (truespel book 4) usually television usual decision pleasure exposure explosion occasion occasionally decisions division measure vision occasions conclusion version unusual measures occasional provision visual invasion confusion Asia leisure garage Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "au jus" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > > > > There is no good way in > > English to spell the ~zh sound, the leasty prevelant sound in English > > > > > ???? > "Zh" is a perfectly good way to spell the sound. > > As far as it being the least prevalent sound in English, is it even an > English sound? All the words I can think of that use it are foreign > loan words. > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 26 06:10:36 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 22:10:36 -0800 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201260427.q0Q2Ksgj012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > The narrator: > > "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have > _went_ something like this?" > > Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed > anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." > > Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 08:28:15 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 03:28:15 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260446.q0Q4cbD5028495@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? VS-) PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not "English"? On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Jan 26 14:01:31 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron butters) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:01:31 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe he WAS bringing her to dinner, not taking her to dinner. That is, maybe he was invited and given a choice of who his partner could be, understanding that the invitation was extended to him and whomever he chose to accompany him. Sent from my iPad On Jan 25, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The narrator: > > "If Diane could have responded to her last message, it would have > _went_ something like this?" > > Apparently, when this episode was being prepared, no one noticed > anything at all strange about the (mis)use of "went." > > Of course, as far as the semantics, it matters not. > > > Speaking of dying, if not already dead, distinctions, a lot of people > don't bother with that between _bring_ and _take_. > > Deena of Jersey Shore, a tweet quoted in Star: > > "Hes bringing me to dinner." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 13:35:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:35:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201250344.q0OK68Kr009237@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As promised, a note on "pastrami" and "basturma", incorporating some personal experience. A few points here, mostly concerning the OED entry, taking off from the etymology note, then the definition. > *Etymology:* < Yiddish /pastrame/ (in Ashkenazic pronunciation > /pastrami/ ) < Romanian Compare the following earlier quotations, the > first two probably reflecting the Turkish etymon (in quot. 1834 > relating travels in Asia Minor in the first half of the 17th cent.), > the latter two reflecting the Romanian:/pastram?/ pressed and > preserved meat (1792; also as /p?stram?/ ) < Ottoman Turkish > /ba?dirma/ , lit. ?something pressed, forced down? (with reference to > the process in which the cured meat is prepared; Turkish /past?rma/ , > /bast?rma/ ), verbal noun of /bast?r-mak/ to suppress, to press down. > Compare modern Greek /??????????/ , Bulgarian /past?rma/ ( < Turkish). First things first. My limited knowledge of Yiddish made me flinch when I saw that "Ashkenazic pronunciation" somehow differs from the generic Yiddish--silly me, I thought all Yiddish speakers were "Ashkenazic". That also makes me wonder how "Ashkenazic" is defined, but that's an inquiry for another day (I did not even bother looking it up). On the other hand, once we get past the Yiddish, there is all that wonderful Turkish/Turkic derivation, through the lens of occupied Balkan territories. But the Ottoman Empire extended well past the Balkan territories--including, of course, Asia Minor, much of the Middle East and parts of the Caucasus. As such, Turkish food products and corresponding terms spread to Syria, Lebanon, Armenia, Azerbaijan (where they speak a close cognate of Turkish) and parts of what later became a part of the Russian Empire. So there is a giant gaping hole in that derivation. On one hand, there is no question that the Yiddish version of /pastrame/ came up through Turkish-occupied (through 1878) Romania and Bulgaria. On the other hand, this may not have been the only path for the words similar to /pastrame/ to enter into English. Not to belabor the obvious, but consider the earliest OED-cited mention of /yogurt/: > 1625 S. Purchas /Pilgrimes/ II. ix. xv. ?9. 1601 Neither doe they > [/sc./ the Turks] eate much Milke, except it bee made sower, which > they call /Yoghurd/. Now, this is a good cite. And it takes only a couple of clicks to find a copy in GB. Immediately following the cited sentence, there is another that mentions "/Kaymack/" ("clouted or cloded Creame")--a word that is not mentioned in the OED (it's somewhere between creme fraiche and clotted cream--Wiki suggests it's "originally Serbian" but I find that very hard to believe). And the next paragraph arrives at the point I wanted to make. http://goo.gl/nC8cc (1905 edition) http://goo.gl/jVGTZ (1737 edition) > Now as for flesh, every yeere in the Autumne, Winter drawing nigh ; > the Bashaw causeth the Provision of Basturma [So called because the > flesh is pressed and made flat.] to be made for the Kings Kitchins ; > and they make it of Kowes great with Calfe, for then say they, the > flesh is most tender and savourie : they use it in the same manner as > Christians use Swines flesh, for they make Puddings and Sauceages of > it, and the rest they boyle and dresse after other fashions. > This sort of dryed flesh, after that it is sufficiently dryed with > hanging a moneth or better in a Roome, and little or no Salt used > about it, will last the whole yeare, and eate very savourly : and it > is in such use amongst the Turkes, that there is scarce a house of any > fashion or account, but doth yeerely make provision of it, and it is > held a very thriftie and sparing course ; but they doe not all make > their Basturma of Kowes great with Calfe, for there are some which > love the other better, which is made of Oxen and Bullocks ; and they > can buy it farre cheaper. The term /Basturma/ is used in Armenian, Russian and possibly in Arabic (I can only suppose the latter and wish someone would correct me if that's wrong--Wiki tells me it's "basterma"). In fact, I just had some basturma earlier this week (Armenian, but from Lebanon). Most versions are dried thick cuts of beef, rolled in combinations of spices that include cumin and fenugreek--the emphasis being on /dried/. The meat is cured but not smoked--obviously it needs a bit of preservation prior to drying. I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. But, obviously, it's the same kind of dry salted beef that's taken as a precursor to pastrami in the etymology note on the latter. > 1831 A. N. Groves /Jrnl./ 12 Sept. in /Jrnl. Resid. Bagdad/ (1832) 250 > We made him some sausages, called in this country /pastourma/. > 1834 J. von Hammer tr. ?. Evily? /Narr. Trav./ I. ii. xxx. 148 The > Merchants of dried salted beef (Tajir?n? Pasdirma) ... cry to the > beholders, 'Take Pasdirma.' > 1853 /Househ. Words/ 17 Dec. 374/1 The common articles of food [in > Varna] are /pastruma/, that is to say, the meat of oxen or buffaloes > salted and dried in the sun. > 1887 M. Thorpe tr. E. de Laveleye /Balkan Penins./ xii. 352 They ... > dry the meat, which is, as pastrama, ... their favourite dish. A slight antedating of this cluster: http://goo.gl/f8jBl Travels in Turkey, Egypt, Nubia and Palestine: in 1824, 1825, 1826, and 1827. Volume 2. By Richard Robert Madden. London: 1829 Letter 34. To the Rev. D. M'Pherson. Damietta, July 1, 1827. p. 218 > The great objection of Dr. Clarke to Bishop Patrick's opinion of the > impossibility of drying quails in the sun, without inducing > putrefaction, is the evidence of Maillet, that fish is so dried in > Egypt without salt. The fish I saw cured on the lake Menzal? was first > sprinkled with brine, and then dried in the sun; and that sort of > /hung beef /which the Turks call /pasturma, /and which is said to be > cured by simply drying it in the sun, is likewise sprinkled with salt. The issue of Household Words cited above is in GB ( http://goo.gl/TUHKd ). The rest of the sources, save for the earliest, are not particularly interesting. A number of British publication--both independent magazines and government papers--for some reason offer discussion of contents of ships departing "Turkish" ports of Ibraila (Wallachia), Galatz (Romania/Moldavia), Varna (Bulgaria), etc., and one of the items making regular appearances is pastroma. The same volume may give different names to the same item. http://goo.gl/1hjsw Report on the Commerce of the Ports of New Russia, Moldavia, and Wallachia, Made to the Russian Government, in 1835. By Julius de Hagemeister [IUri? Gageme?ster]. London: 1836 Chapter 3. Export Trade. XIII. Salted Meat. p. 153 > In the two principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, beef is dried, > and it is sold under the name of Pastrama; under this preparation, it > is very much sought after in the country itself, and in Turkey. In > 1832, 15,000 poods of it were shipped from Galatz. http://goo.gl/f6P9u Tables of the Revenue, Population, Commerce, &c. of the United Kingdom, and Its Dependencies. Supplement to Part XIV. Statements Relating to Foreign Countries. London: 1849 p. 343 Turkey. Statement of the Quantities of the various Articles Imported and Exported at the Port of Samsoon in the Year 1842 > ... > Beef, Preserved Bales 806 p. 344 Turkey. ... Samsoon ... 1844 > ... > Preserved Beef Bales 2,123 p. 348-9 Moldavia. Statement of the Number of Vessels, belonging to various Nations, which Departed from the Port of Galat, with the Nature of their Cargoes, in the Year 1845 > Preserved Beef p. 350 Moldavia. Statement of the Quantities, Value and Average Prices of the several Articles Imported and Exported at the Port of Galatz, in the Year 1843 > ... > Beef, Jerked (Pastromah) Cwts. ?0s10 221 ?110 p. 351 Moldavia. ... Exported ... 1845 > Beef, Preserved Cases 31,654 ?5,198 p. 353 Wallachia. Statement of the Number of Vessels, belonging to various Nations, which Departed from the Port of Ibraila, with the Nature of their Cargoes, in the Year 1843 > ... Jerked Beef, 151 Bales ... etc. p. 354 Wallachia. ... 1845 > Pastroma, 155 Cwts. etc. > Jerked Beef, 1,539 Cwts. p. 355 ... 1843. Exported > Beef, Jerked (Pastromah) Cwts. ?0s10 482 ?241 p. 356 ... Exported ... 1844 > Jerked Beef Cwts. 129 ?60 A couple of other items that are mentioned among the exports but apparently not listed in the OED (and with which I am familiar through buying and using them with some regularity): Cascaval (a.k.a. kashkaval--a type of sharp sheeps milk cheese, with different varieties identified with Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Turkey and Hungary, but the name apparently derived from Sicilian "caciocavallo") Mahlep (a.k.a. mahleb, mahlab, mahlepi--kernels of cherrystones with flavor resembling bitter almonds, used in baking from Greece through the Middle East) Both have detailed coverage in Wiki. There is a version of shyshlyk (shahshlyk==shishkebab) that also goes by the name of basturma--in this case, the meat is not dried, but it is spiced and cured prior to grilling. But, like the typical basturma, it is beef (kebabs from the corresponding region are usually lamb, which might be one reason for the name "basturma"). The item was defined fairly regularly in encyclopedias, although sometimes under different names. http://goo.gl/URdtZ The Dictionary of Trade Products, Manufacturing, and Technical Terms: With a Definition of Moneys, Weights, and Measures, of All Countries. By Peter Lund Simmonds. London: 1858 p. 277/2 > Pastoormah, Pasturma, Pastrama, beef preserved in Asia Minor, with garlic and pepper, and dried in the sun for winter food. It is prepared in Wallachia and Moldavia, and largely shipped from Varna. Besides providing all Anatolia, Aleppo, and Damascus, 6000 cwt. or more is yearly sent from Kaissariah to Constantinople. > Pasturma. See Pastoormah. On the history of pastrami, the note continues. > Pastrami was apparently first sold in the U.S. in a Jewish > delicatessen /c/1887. The Yiddish word is also occas. found in an > English context in the forms /pastroma/ and /pastrama/ . Compare: > 1914 /N.Y. Times/ 21 Aug. 5 From the local market came the complaint > of the Kosher delicatessen men that the manufacturers had put up > prices. Pastrama, they said, had been raised from 36 to 42 cents a pound. Of course, there is some dispute about this. Katz Deli is among the claimants to the original pastrami name in the US, but it did not open until 1888. Another deli that opened in 1887 also claimed the original pastroma recipe. Wiki points out that Romanian Jews were already in NYC as early as 1872. The terminology for pastrami/pastrama/pastroma as a deli meat item entered US English around that time. The meaning was obviously somewhat different from the Romanian/Turkish term that was cited in British documents in mid-century. http://goo.gl/UAHrz Monthly Bulletin of the Dairy and Food Division of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Volume 3, No. 5. Harrisburgh: June 15, 1905 Analyses of Food for Month of June, 1905--Continued. p. 47 > What sold For. Marks on the Package. Chemist's Statement of the Result of Analysis > Pastroma (meat) May 4, 1905. No case. Given that the item appears next to Bologna, Lebanon bologna, Summer bologna, and minced ham, I presume that this is the new meaning (pastrami) and not the old one (basturma). http://goo.gl/u5wSf Annual Report of the Dept. of Health of the City of New York. 1907 Work Performed at the Chemical Laboratory. p. 105 > Number of pastrama 3 Meats Canned, Preserved, Etc. p. 589 > 26365 Pastrama D. Moskowitz, No. 49 Cannon Street Free from borax and sulfites > 26419 Pastrama M. Zimmerman & Co., No. 318 East Houston Street Free from borax and sulfites There can be no doubt about this one. More from the etymology note. > The extended use, while later in English, is the original meaning of > the Romanian and Turkish words; in the Balkans, pastrami has always > been made of any of a number of pressed and preserved meats, rather > than being limited specifically to beef. My initial assumption was that the Jewish version--being Kosher--might have been limited to beef. Lamb was simply not that popular in Romania and only slightly more popular in Bulgaria. But, apparently, the original pastrame was made from goose breast, only to have reverted to beef brisket in New York City. Still, given that most supplies came from the East Balkan ports, at least in the 19th century, most pastroma/basturma likely was made from beef. But it gets better still! http://goo.gl/5vmJP The Nineteenth Century. Volume 12 (68). October 1882 Roumanian Peasants and Their Songs. By C. F. Keary. p. 575 > Thus is the Roumanian peasant a king within his domain, for he owes > his land to no one. ... Meat he rarely eats. The staff of life with > him is a concoction from maize and water, a sort of polenta, in fact, > which he calls /mamaliga. /This is eaten as bread with butter, cheese, > or a few olives. Sometimes he adds to this a kind of kippered fish > called /pastrama./ This is interesting for two reasons. First, we have a /fish/ pastrama. "Kippered" seems to be quite an appropriate description, as it is cured, pressed and dried. But the other item is interesting as well--at least from the point of view of culinary history. "Mamalyga" is the Russian/Ukrainian/Moldavian--and, apparently, Romanian--version of hominy and grits. It refers both to the whole grain and chipped version. If fish is not your thing, you can try camel. http://goo.gl/ynjAv Travels in Crete. Volume 1. By Robert Pashley. Cambridge: 1837 Chapter 6. February 19. p. 96 > It being Wednesday, the Greeks eat only boiled herbs and bread, to > which was added, for us, salt-fish, eggs, and a preparation of camel's > flesh, called p?struma, of which I cannot speak very highly. Still, beef was the dominant meat. http://goo.gl/JShFE Bible Lands: Their Modern Customs and Manners Illustrative of Scripture. By Henry John Van-Lennep. New York City: 1875 p. 175 > In the greater part of Asia Minor it is customary for every family, in > the autumn, to buy a young bullock or a cow, which is killed, the > flesh made into sausages, or salted, pressed, and then, well seasoned > with a preparation of pounded garlic, strong spices, eta, it is dried > and forms the essential winter provision of /pasturma. /This is also > an important item of exportation to other parts of the East, the most > highly esteemed quality being prepared at C?sarea, in Asia Minor. http://goo.gl/8Acmd Central Europe. By Josef Franz Maria Partsch. New York: 1903 Chapter 11. Economic Geography. p. 169 > The life of the half-savage wandering shepherds, whose wants are > nearly all supplied by their flocks, which yield them milk, cheese, > /past?rma /or /postrame /(hard pressed meat dried in the sun and cut > into strips), skins, leather, and wool, lingers on into the present > like a remnant of the Middle Ages. Finally, concerning the definition: > orig. U.S. > // > Highly seasoned smoked beef, usually served in thin slices; (as a > count noun) a serving of this, esp. as a filling in a sandwich. Later > also in extended use: other meat or fish prepared in a similar manner. There is one important step missing from the description. The meat is indeed cured in brine, seasoned--highly seasoned, similarly to basturma--then dried, smoked and /steamed/. Steaming is an essential part of the preparation--more so than smoking--because it softens the meat and turns it into a deli product, suitable for immediate consumption. And it is this missing step that links pastrami to basturma--the latter lacking the steaming process. In fact, smoking may not be a differential factor. http://goo.gl/htlh8 The Mussulman. Volume 2. By Richard Robert Madden. London: 1830 p. 80-1 > A couple of oars and a topsail were thrown into the little boat; a > small keg of water, and some flakes of smoke-dried meat, called > pasturma, a trunk, a compass, and a coil of rope, were also let down; > and without any ceremony of leave-taking, Mourad and his friend the > Greek committed themselves to the care of Providence, in a crazy bark, > in the midst of the wide ocean. It's also interesting that the dry meat is most commonly beef, although other meats and even fish can be prepared in the same manner. Yet, the derivative pastrami evolved from goose and duck breasts to beef (in order to minimize the cost of the meat and to keep it Kosher), only to spread out to turkey, other meats and, once again, fish (however, these products do not reproduce the entire preparation process--instead, they rely on the heavy spicing to resemble the flavor, if no the texture of the traditional beef pastrami. One thing I don't want to speculate on is the origin of the term. I've spotted some suggestions that it originated in Greek, in Romanian and even Armenian, yet, given that all these territories had been under Turkish control for generations, the original determination that the term is Turkish seems to be reasonable. In fact, one of the Asiatic Society publications pointed to the name "basturma" given to apparently drying shed in "East Turkestan". VS-) On 1/24/2012 10:44 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > After sending this e-mail, I notice that the wonderful website barrypopik.c= > om has an April 2, 1909 citation with the spelling _pastroma_. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:37 PM > To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Cc:jester at panix.com;bapopik at aol.com > Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" > > > pastrami (OED 1914) > > > > 1909 _Boston Advocate_ 9 Apr. 6 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers) (adv't) M= > argolies Kosher Worst Mfg. Co. ... Worst, Corned Beef, Pastrami and Tongues= > . > > > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Jan 26 15:46:47 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:46:47 -0600 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201252315.q0PJdiHF012868@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 5:15 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel Goldwyn > 1943) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (variant Samuel > Goldwyn > 1943) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > If you have a message, call Western Union. > If you've got a message, send a telegram. > > The lines above are classic rebuffs delivered by hardheaded Hollywood > producers to idealistic writers who have created didactic scripts for > plays or movies. The words have been attributed to a variety of people > and many of them were not Hollywood producers. > > The Quote Verifier gives this list: Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Humphrey > Bogart, Marlon Brando, Dorothy Parker, George S. Kaufman, Ernest > Hemingway, George Bernard Shaw, and Samuel Goldwyn. > > The Yale Book of Quotations has a 1954 cite with an attribution to > Moss Hart. Barry Popik gives a 1953 cite for Moss Hart. Building on > this valuable work I've been able to push the date back a bit for this > type of saying. > > Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel > Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, > Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) > [Begin excerpt] > NEW YORK, April 16.-Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for > Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a > wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal > for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . > . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it > has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the > comedy. Messages are for Western Union." > [End Excerpt] > Slight antedating: NY Post, April 13, 1943 p 26 col 4 Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 16:50:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:50:07 -0500 Subject: If you have a message, call Western Union (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201261547.q0Q64HhC025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole wrote >> Cite: 1943 April 17, Dallas Morning News, Heard in New York: Samuel >> Goldwyn Gets a Message by Leonard Lyons, Section 2, Page 4, Column 6, >> Dallas, Texas. (GenealogyBank) >> [Begin excerpt] >> NEW YORK, April 16.-Sam Goldwyn, who is seeking a new film story for >> Bob Hope, received a phone call from a Hollywood writer."I have a >> wonderful comedy story," the writer excitedly told him. "It's ideal >> for Hope. It's a great comedy." . . . "Fine, fine," Goldwyn said. . . >> . "Not only is it a great comedy," the writer continued, "but also, it >> has a message." . . . A message?" Goldwyn repeated. "Just write me the >> comedy. Messages are for Western Union." >> [End Excerpt] Bill Mullins wrote: > Slight antedating: > > NY Post, April 13, 1943 p 26 col 4 Great work! Many thanks, Bill, for finding an earlier publication date for the Leonard Lyons column with the Goldwyn anecdote. Best, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 17:02:46 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:02:46 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201261322.q0Q64HVA025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:01 AM, wrote: > Maybe he WAS bringing her to dinner, not taking her to dinner. That is, maybe he was invited and given a choice of who his partner could be, understanding that the invitation was extended to him and whomever he chose to accompany him. Yes, but that "should," as it were, be "only," so to speak, from the point of view of the hostess Well, IAC, it probably doesn't matter, anyway, as far as communication, which is the whole purpose of language. Gnome sane? ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 18:05:09 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:05:09 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <9B9A7FDF-B35C-459D-9CFE-98BF98A179CD@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/25/2012 08:41 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Jan 25, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 1/25/2012 10:38 AM, Geoff Nathan wrote: > >> Not to mention 'as you know...', 'where's your father' and similar. > >> Of course they're probably not *underlying* /zh/, but they're > >> certainly produced with voiced palato-alveolar fricatives all the time. > > > > Not by me -- neither all the time or ever, I think -- at least for > > the latter. (For example, "where's your" sounds different to me from > > "azure" when I say them.) But I've been called pretentious here. > > >as in "I'm not speaking azure pal, I'm speaking azure dad"? Larry has found a minimal pair! ... for me. To be contrasted with "I'm not speaking as your pal/dad". I think -- if I'm not biasing myself. Joel >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Jan 26 18:10:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <4F2156B7.4030302@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1/26/2012 08:35 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. Victor, where do you document a 1602 date? I didn't see it in your message. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 18:34:01 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:34:01 -0500 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201260610.q0Q61W8F013083@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). Those of a certain age may recall the song, "Sincerely," by - originally - the R&B group, The Moonglows. IAC, before "Sincerely" crossed over, the Moonglows' first, in-group hit was the song, "I Was Wrong." This work contains the verse. The wine That I drank It must have _Went_ to my head For its time, this was the equivalent of the instance from last night: Well, of course, that's the way we talk, but there's no point in going *public" with it! Why wasn't that "corrected"? This is not a blues song! As far as Mencken et al., their attitude was entirely proper! The whiye man, as the natural custodian of the language, must hold himself to a higher standard! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Jan 26 18:43:09 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:43:09 -0800 Subject: Heard on "1000 Ways to Die": In-Reply-To: <201201261834.q0Q64HvO025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> AmE PST for PSP has been voluminously commented on, from Mencken on (and surely before). > > [R&B example] For its time, this was the equivalent of the instance from last night: > Well, of course, that's the way we talk, but there's no point in going > *public" with it! Why wasn't that "corrected"? This is not a blues > song! > > As far as Mencken et al., their attitude was entirely proper! The literature on PST for PSP merely describes the phenomenon as a widespread AmE non-standardism, and doesn't deplore it. > > The white man, as the natural custodian of the language, must hold > himself to a higher standard! PST for PSP is *very very* far from being an exclusively black thing. your sarcasm is misplaced. arnold > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 26 18:48:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:48:30 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pastrami" In-Reply-To: <201201261810.q0Q61tnY014831@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The source is the same as the OED quote, which is dated as 1601 diary, published in 1625. I believe that the 1601 dating is a bit off and the actual diary date is 1602. But the main point is that it is the same source. I cited two GB locations--for the 1737 and 1905 editions. But the text is the same--it was not changed from the 1600s original. VS-) On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 1/26/2012 08:35 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >I doubt I can beat 1602 on Basturma. > > Victor, where do you document a 1602 date? I didn't see it in your > message. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 01:39:07 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 20:39:07 -0500 Subject: Logomachy: fracking, frac, fraccing, fracktivists, hydraulic fracturing Message-ID: The Associated Press has an article about the logomachy concerning "fracking". Title: No energy industry backing for the word 'fracking' By JONATHAN FAHEY - 2 hrs 59 mins ago http://news.yahoo.com/no-energy-industry-backing-word-fracking-222649620.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 02:06:59 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:06:59 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel Message-ID: Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, reunderstood.) Well, in his commentary following yet another classic four-set match between Federer and Nadal in the Australian Open semis this morning, ESPN announcer Chris Fowler summarizes the outcome to fellow commentator Patrick McEnroe (who had just observed that Nadal always seems to have the answers against Federer "when they go out there one-on-one"): "Yes, [Federer's] winning streak coming in at 4, but as you said, all of that's out the window when it's hombre et hombre on the court: Nadal through in four to the final". So "mano a mano" > "mano y mano" > "man and man" > "hombre et hombre" Yes, that's "hombre et hombre": [ambreEDambre], with flapped [D] as in "et al." Hard to believe, perhaps, but I figure Fowler provided the (partial) Spanish translation in honor of the Mallorcan Nadal, and then, suddenly realizing that Nadal's native language is Catalan rather than Spanish but not knowing the Catalan for "and", helpfully offered the Latin conjunction. LH ==================== *e.g., from my files: Both shows [Prime Time Live and 20/20] had been going mano-a-mano, or rather womano-a-womano, competing for the same stories and interviews. (Surely you recall all those colorful Diane Sawyer-vs.-Barbara Walters tales.) Multi-sport races were designed to be Mano y Mano - man against man - with no distinct advantage. Or for those who have two parts to their bathing suits - that might be womano y womano. I'll have to check my Spanish dictionary. "We channelled the spirits of the rock-and-roll gods as we launched into a vicious contest of dueling guitars. Two virtuosos mano-a-mano. Well, mano-a-kiddo." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 27 02:09:16 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:09:16 -0800 Subject: "fracking" Message-ID: For anybody on the list who would like to start a barfight... (I am not taking sides. There are serious environmental problems with fracking; whether the natural gas industry will overcome these problems I cannot predict.) from http://channels.isp.netscape.com/pf/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/1001/20120126/1739.htm No energy industry backing for the word 'fracking' JONATHAN FAHEY AP Energy Writer NEW YORK (AP) ? A different kind of F-word is stirring a linguistic and political debate as controversial as what it defines. The word is "fracking" ? as in hydraulic fracturing, a technique long used by the oil and gas industry to free oil and gas from rock. It's not in the dictionary, the industry hates it, and President Barack Obama didn't use it in his State of the Union speech ? even as he praised federal subsidies for it. The word sounds nasty, and environmental advocates have been able to use it to generate opposition ? and revulsion ? to what they say is a nasty process that threatens water supplies. "It obviously calls to mind other less socially polite terms, and folks have been able to take advantage of that," said Kate Sinding, a senior attorney at the Natural Resources Defense Council who works on drilling issues. One of the chants at an anti-drilling rally in Albany earlier this month was "No fracking way!" Industry executives argue that the word is deliberately misspelled by environmental activists and that it has become a slur that should not be used by media outlets that strive for objectivity. "It's a co-opted word and a co-opted spelling used to make it look as offensive as people can try to make it look," said Michael Kehs, vice president for Strategic Affairs at Chesapeake Energy, the nation's second-largest natural gas producer. To the surviving humans of the sci-fi TV series "Battlestar Galactica," it has nothing to do with oil and gas. It is used as a substitute for the very down-to-Earth curse word. Michael Weiss, a professor of linguistics at Cornell University, says the word originated as simple industry jargon, but has taken on a negative meaning over time ? much like the word "silly" once meant "holy." But "frack" also happens to sound like "smack" and "whack," with more violent connotations. "When you hear the word 'fracking,' what lights up your brain is the profanity," says Deborah Mitchell, who teaches marketing at the University of Wisconsin's School of Business. "Negative things come to mind." Obama did not use the word in his State of the Union address Tuesday night, when he said his administration will help ensure natural gas will be developed safely, suggesting it would support 600,000 jobs by the end of the decade. In hydraulic fracturing, millions of gallons of water, sand and chemicals are pumped into wells to break up underground rock formations and create escape routes for the oil and gas. In recent years, the industry has learned to combine the practice with the ability to drill horizontally into beds of shale, layers of fine-grained rock that in some cases have trapped ancient organic matter that has cooked into oil and gas. By doing so, drillers have unlocked natural gas deposits across the East, South and Midwest that are large enough to supply the U.S. for decades. Natural gas prices have dipped to decade-low levels, reducing customer bills and prompting manufacturers who depend on the fuel to expand operations in the U.S. Environmentalists worry that the fluid could leak into water supplies from cracked casings in wells. They are also concerned that wastewater from the process could contaminate water supplies if not properly treated or disposed of. And they worry the method allows too much methane, the main component of natural gas and an extraordinarily potent greenhouse gas, to escape. Some want to ban the practice altogether, while others want tighter regulations. The Environmental Protection Agency is studying the issue and may propose federal regulations. The industry prefers that states regulate the process. Some states have banned it. A New York proposal to lift its ban drew about 40,000 public comments ? an unprecedented total ? inspired in part by slogans such as "Don't Frack With New York." The drilling industry has generally spelled the word without a "K," using terms like "frac job" or "frac fluid." Energy historian Daniel Yergin spells it "fraccing" in his book, "The Quest: Energy, Security and the Remaking of the Modern World." The glossary maintained by the oilfield services company Schlumberger includes only "frac" and "hydraulic fracturing." The spelling of "fracking" began appearing in the media and in oil and gas company materials long before the process became controversial. It first was used in an Associated Press story in 1981. That same year, an oil and gas company called Velvet Exploration, based in British Columbia, issued a press release that detailed its plans to complete "fracking" a well. The word was used in trade journals throughout the 1980s. In 1990, Commerce Secretary Robert Mosbacher announced U.S. oil engineers would travel to the Soviet Union to share drilling technology, including fracking. The word does not appear in The Associated Press Stylebook, a guide for news organizations. David Minthorn, deputy standards editor at the AP, says there are tentative plans to include an entry in the 2012 edition. He said the current standard is to avoid using the word except in direct quotes, and to instead use "hydraulic fracturing." That won't stop activists ? sometimes called "fracktivists" ? from repeating the word as often as possible. "It was created by the industry, and the industry is going to have to live with it," says the NRDC's Sinding. Dave McCurdy, CEO of the American Gas Association, agrees, much to his dismay: "It's Madison Avenue hell," he says. ___ Jonathan Fahey can be reached at http://twitter.com/JonathanFahey. _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM Fri Jan 27 02:13:09 2012 From: JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM (James A. Landau ) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:13:09 -0800 Subject: a crash blossom Message-ID: "Romney, Gingrich exchange barbs on immigration" which suggests to me that they were trading samples of the barbs on the barb wire to be used to seal our borders. - Jim Landau _____________________________________________________________ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 27 02:33:27 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:33:27 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270207.q0QKDa4r013083@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the > reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it > into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y > mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and > "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the > expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, > reunderstood.) I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the reanalysis in the notes: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 03:38:52 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:38:52 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the >> reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it >> into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y >> mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and >> "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the >> expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, >> reunderstood.) > > I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the > reanalysis in the notes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ > Oops, my mistake. I search under "mano a mano", "mano-a-mano", and "mano", and pulled up nothing. Is there a way to access the ECDB alphabetically? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 27 03:41:25 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:41:25 -0500 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270339.q0QLDdVq025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Jan 26, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>> Some of you will recall our discussion a few years back of the >>> reanalysis of this expression, although it seems not to have made it >>> into the eggcorn database. We batted around such delights as "mano y >>> mano", "mano on mano", and my favorites, "mano-a-womano" and >>> "womano-a-womano"*, all eloquently testifying to the shift in how the >>> expression tends to be (mis)understood. (Or, to be nonjudgmental, >>> reunderstood.) >> >> I entered "mano-on-mano" into the ECDB in 2005, with discussion of the >> reanalysis in the notes: >> >> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/370/mano-on-mano/ >> > Oops, my mistake. I search under "mano a mano", "mano-a-mano", and > "mano", and pulled up nothing. Is there a way to access the ECDB > alphabetically? Click on "browse eggcorns" on the right, which takes you to: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 04:12:02 2012 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:12:02 -0500 Subject: NS = native speaker In-Reply-To: <201201260401.q0PMAP67009223@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: David, It's found fairly widely in the ESL research literature, along with NNS for Non-Native Speaker. Herb On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:01 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: NS = native speaker > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Has anybody here see or heard this abbreviation used? I've found it in one > blog and the Kashmir Journal of Language Research. > > > > Regards, > > David > > > > Barnhart at highlands.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 06:57:24 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 06:57:24 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201260828.q0Q64HIW025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > > VS-) > > PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > > Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > > Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > "English"? > > On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 27 14:33:06 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:33:06 -0500 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, not to someone who luges. LH > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? >> >> VS-) >> >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. >> >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). >> >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not >> "English"? >> >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Jan 27 15:37:42 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:37:42 -0600 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201271433.q0R5RYMi017360@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE And one who spits mucus would be a loogier? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Laurence Horn > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 8:33 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com > "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger > > Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, > not to someone who luges. > > LH > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------------- > ---- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > ---- > >> > >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > >> > >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > >> > >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > >> "English"? > >> > >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell > the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more > likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 17:52:26 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:52:26 +0800 Subject: "mano a mano": another turn on the wheel In-Reply-To: <201201270351.q0QLDdW4025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: (a) Chapman 1986 slang dict, p.273a cites mano a mano (a hand-to-hand fight or duel; Hemingway, bullfighting) from the NY Times, the medial _a_ having a grave accent over it, clearly a hypergallicism. (b) mano (hand) in Spanish is feminine gender. Lat. manus (hand; a band of men; feminine u-stem); It., Sp. la mano; Pg. a ma~o; Fr. la main. Such arcane joy from a grammatical quirk behind such a macho construction! (c) If Latino Latina and Filipino Filipina, then mano-a-mano *mana-a-mana, but the first Google hit is for the Muppets(apostrophe) rendition of Manamana. (d) Back in my SRJC, CA days 1970-71, my Spanish teacher once commented that he would use Spanish mano in the same way as English man (slang expletive indicating excitement or to draw attention). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 17:56:47 2012 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:56:47 +0800 Subject: NS = native speaker In-Reply-To: <201201270412.q0QLDdWC025955@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NSE = native speaker of English (common) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 19:04:58 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:04:58 -0500 Subject: Quote: In the future everyone will be famous (or anonymous) for 15 minutes Message-ID: The Yale Book of Quotations, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations and some other references list the following version of Andy Warhol's well-known comment about transitory fame: In the future everybody will be world famous for fifteen minutes. The cite given in YBQ is for a 1968 "exhibition catalogue, Moderna Museet, Stockholm, Sweden". Oxford gives the same cite: "volume released to mark his exhibition in Stockholm, February?March, 1968". There is evidence that Warhol may have used a version in 1967 without the modifier "world". Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html [Begin excerpt] In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only become available to the man in the street, but are virtually unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." [End excerpt] The Time version of the Warhol saying was further disseminated in an Art magazine in 1967. Cite: 1967 November, Art Scene, "Jan van der Marck: The Young Man Who . . ." by Dennis Stone, Page 11, Volume 1, Art Scene Co., Chicago, Illinois. (Verified on paper; Thanks to the librarians at the Lucille Caudill Little Fine Arts Library at the University of Kentucky) [Begin excerpt] But showmanship is the operative word. It is the essential ingredient if the Contemporary is to compete for national attention, and you'd better believe that the Museum and its Director will be competing. If the time approaches, as Warhol was quoted in Time as having predicted, when every artist will be famous for 15 minutes, this development pre-supposes the establishment of a network of Instant Fame Shops. [End excerpt] On the Quote Investigator website I examined a variant statement that was used in an artwork by Banksy. If a list member knows how I could find out when the Banksy piece was created or when it was first displayed I would appreciate your help. Apparently it was shown in Los Angeles by September 15, 2006. In the Future Everyone Will Be Anonymous for Fifteen Minutes http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/01/27/anonymous-fifteen/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 27 23:48:33 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:48:33 +0000 Subject: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201271433.q0R5RYMi017360@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess he could have detailed the word "luger" (as someone who luges?) a little "cleaner" (something that cleans?) so I could better (someone who bets?) focus on my reply a little "closer" (someone who closes?). "Luger" would be ~luezher (one who luges ~luzhiz) Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > In truespel as heard by clicking the speaker icon at thefreedictionary.com "luge" is ~luezh and "luger" is ~lueger > > Um, I believe the latter is for the word referring to the gun of that name, not to someone who luges. > > LH > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Re: "au jus" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> How would you spell "luge" and "luger", Tom? > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> PS: Can we add casual and exposure to the list, along with seizure, > >> occasion/occasional, lesion, collision, precision, elision, erosion, > >> engine? All but "casual" and "elision" had migrated from French > >> complete with the [Z]. On the other hand, I was surprised to find the > >> OED list fissure and fission with [S] rather than [Z], thus making > >> fissure homonymous with fisher. From physicists--and physics > >> students--I've heard it, most of my life, as [Z]. But I checked with a > >> couple of "informants" and they do differentiate between fissure and > >> fisher, although it involves un-English lengthening of the [S]. Are > >> there any other English words (not necessarily originating in English in > >> some form) that involve using [SS] in the middle? Another one that I > >> always hear more vocalized than dictionaries list it is torsion. > >> > >> Another anomaly is cringe--OED lists both [Z] and [dZ] variants for > >> British, but only [dZ] for US. Hinge, Fringe, lunge, binge, singe and > >> linge all have /only/ [dZ] listed. Range is like cringe, but grange and > >> derange(d/ment) are like the rest. I'll let you figure out which way > >> mange/mangy fall (from French!--but so is derangement). > >> > >> Another odd cluster: artesian, Malaysian, Malthusian and Cartesian, > >> although the last three differ between US and UK (and even within US and > >> UK). Transient is listed in OED with [s], [z], [S] and [Z], not to > >> mention vowel variations. The point is not to find all the instances > >> (oh, look! I missed "illusion"!), but to dismiss the idea that the sound > >> is particularly unusual. And who is to say that "Anglo-Norman" is not > >> "English"? > >> > >> On 1/25/2012 11:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >>> Indeed. The letter "s" is by far the most used letter in English to spell the ~zh sound as in "measure" ~mezher. But the letter "s" is 60 times more likely to spell another sound, ~s. See truespel book 4. > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 07:06:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:30 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese Message-ID: Since I don't have the full document, I don't know if the complete quote would have some redeeming features, but I don't see how it could. http://goo.gl/upFsI > An investigation by the New York Department of Health found "no > evidence of environmental or infection as the cause of the girls' > illness," according to department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond. "The > school is served by a public water system. ... An environmental > exposure would affect many people." In case there is any doubt, my concern is over the serialization of "environmental or infection", particularly without an underlying NP for "environmental". My guess is that the author either started out with "environmental cause" and expanded the sentence later or simply assumed that "environmental" was a modifier for "cause" in its present form. The former is not particularly interesting as a source of error--mere inattention--but the latter is. Another possibility is a straight omission of "exposure"--as it appears in the last sentence. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 13:56:59 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:56:59 -0500 Subject: Szechuan pepper Message-ID: Actually, this comment is about more than just "Szechuan pepper". First, "Szechuan" is the correction preferred by the Windows 7 built-in spell-checker. The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese /Si-chua-n/", but no such allowances are made for spelling forms, with not a single example listing the Sichuan form. Yet Sichuan is the preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. Another oddity is the fact that the Szechuan entry is for noun only, with the usual qualifier "used attrib." Yet, Szechuanese is listed both as adjective and noun, with the noun covering the "dialect" and the residents of Szechuan. But consider one of the examples under adj.: > 1980 E. Behr /Getting Even/ vii. 89 There was the smell of real > Szechuanese cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. Now, just over 30 years later (at least, in the US), this is more like to appear as > There was the smell of real Szechuan cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. Following the OED convention, this case is merely "attrib.", despite appearance to the contrary. In fact, only "Szechuan-style" is considered an adjective, e.g. > 1979 /United States 1980/81/ (Penguin Travel Guides) 179 Honolulu > also has several Mandarin or Szechwan-style Chinese restaurants. But compare all the forms of Szechuan to Taiwan. Both form adjectives with -ese, but Taiwan rarely appears in "attrib." position, while such usage of Szechuan is pervasive (complete with "Sichuan Garden", "Sichuan Cuisine" and "Sichuan Delight" restaurants gracing virtually every major US city). On the other hand, "Taiwanese" is much more common than "Szechuanese". I've had similar concern about other "attrib." entries, but here there may be an additional complication that the -an ending may be re-interpreted as an adjectival suffix. (Compare Moldova/Moldavia --> Moldovan/Moldavian) Yunnan and Hunan suffer similar fates, while Taiwan really becomes an exception rather than the rule. (Note that OED has no entries for Hunan and Yunnan, while the entries for Hunanese and Yunanese are similar to Szechuanese in every way.) I would argue that "Szechuan hotpot" (ma la hotpot) is not "hotpot of Szechuan" but short for "Szechuan-style hotpot", i.e., an adjective. Returning back to the spelling issue, there is no "Szechuan pepper" in the current OED at all. But there are two quotations that mention "Sichuan pepper". Galanga n. > 2000 A. Dalby /Dangerous Tastes/ 78 Five-spice powder ... . In China > itself the typical mixture is likely to include Sichuan pepper and > perhaps fennel or licorice or dried ginger or galanga. Pepper n. 1.b. > 1991 /Chile Pepper/ *5* ii. 45 The brown or black seeds are also > marketed under the name 'Sichuan pepper' or 'Chinese pepper' and are > highly aromatic with hints of citrus. This is not particularly surprising, as "Sichuan pepper" is one of the latest "in" spices (since the FDA ban on its Chinese imports had been lifted in 2005) and usually occurs with that particular spelling (at least, in the US--can't really speak for the rest of the world). But this is further complicated by frequent attempts to anglicize such things. Virtually every package of Sichuan pepper that is imported from China is /not/ labeled as Sichuan pepper, but instead reads "Prickly ash". Right now I am looking at a package of spices from Chuanzhen Industry Co. whose English label reads "Green Prickly Ash". Prickly ash does appear under prickly adj. Special Uses S2. > prickly ash n. any of various North American prickly shrubs or trees: > /spec./ /(a) /a shrub with spiny bark, the devil's walking stick, > /Aralia spinosa/ (family /Araliaceae/); /(b) /any of several spiny or > prickly pinnate-leaved shrubs or trees of the genus /Zanthoxylum/ > (family /Rutaceae/), /esp./ either of two shrubs whose aromatic bark > is used medicinally, the toothache tree, /Z. americanum/ and the > Hercules' club /Z. clava-herculis/. It is interesting that only North American varieties are mentioned for both (a) and (b) and only the use of the aromatic bark enters into the the picture (correctly identifying it as the "toothache tree"). But Wiki description of Sichuan pepper expands on this a bit. > Sichuan pepper (or Szechuan pepper) is the outer pod of the tiny fruit > of a number of species in the genus /Zanthoxylum/ (most commonly /Z. > piperitum/, /Z. simulans/, and /Z. schinifolium/), widely grown and > consumed in Asia as a spice. So this is indeed the same genus as the North American prickly ash. This sounds to me like a pretty good reason to expand the definition. The third component of this is the fact that the Japanese version of this spice is usually labeled "sansho" or "sansho pepper" (although other names include "Chinese pepper", "Japanese pepper", "Indonesian lemon pepper", etc.). The Wiki article contains an explanation that the Japanese name is a direct borrowing of one of the Chinese names, which is translated as "mountain pepper", rather than a corruption of Sichuan. Most dictionaries, including the OED, do not have a sansho entry. A brief follow up on the galanga entry mentioned above. The OED has both Galanga and Galangal entries, with the former simply diverting to the latter in definition, while possessing a separate list of forms and a separate etymology note. That seems odd, particularly given one of the quotations under galangal: > 1867 K. L. Dey /Indigenous Drugs India/ 11 The tubers of Alpinia > Galanga ... are faintly aromatic, pungent, and somewhat bitter, and > are sold by the name of galangal by native druggists. Both forms appear to have coexisted virtually from the start. There is an interesting twist on this, provided by GoogleTranslate. Galangal is "translated" into Dutch as is--perhaps reflecting the supposed translation, but more likely simply reflecting lack of a corresponding entry. Galanga is translated as Galangawortel. But if you shop for galangal powder at a Dutch supermarket, you will not find it under any name even remotely resembling either of these--instead, the label would reflect its Indochinese (or Indonesian) origin--"Laos". ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanga ) Translating into Russian has the opposite effect--"galanga" is unchanged, indicating lack of the corresponding entry, while "galangal" is translated as "kalgan" (long used as a traditional medicinal plant). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 14:44:05 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:44:05 -0500 Subject: undercrackers Message-ID: Seems to be fairly common and is in UD. http://goo.gl/KbJmU > "I should think so too," she said today. "What's wrong with a few > pictures of pretty girls lounging around in their undercrackers. OED has zilch, and oxforddictionaries.com is a bit over-restrictive: > /British/ /informal/ > men?s underpants. Collins and Dictionary.com get it right, though. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 15:03:46 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:03:46 -0500 Subject: obiticide Message-ID: http://goo.gl/5oqex > The Poynter Institute's Craig Silverman has a term to describe it, > "obiticide," which he defines as premature death by media. Didn't someone ask about this earlier? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 15:07:01 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:07:01 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201280706.q0S5SunM029569@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is what Reuters says: ?The Le Roy school is safe,? Hammond said. ?The environment or an infection is not the cause of the students? tics. There are many causes of tics-like symptoms.? http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/21/stress-blamed-for-student-tics-at-new-york-school/ DanG On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: an odd example of legalese > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Since I don't have the full document, I don't know if the complete quote > would have some redeeming features, but I don't see how it could. > > http://goo.gl/upFsI > > An investigation by the New York Department of Health found "no > > evidence of environmental or infection as the cause of the girls' > > illness," according to department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond. "The > > school is served by a public water system. ... An environmental > > exposure would affect many people." > > In case there is any doubt, my concern is over the serialization of > "environmental or infection", particularly without an underlying NP for > "environmental". My guess is that the author either started out with > "environmental cause" and expanded the sentence later or simply assumed > that "environmental" was a modifier for "cause" in its present form. The > former is not particularly interesting as a source of error--mere > inattention--but the latter is. Another possibility is a straight > omission of "exposure"--as it appears in the last sentence. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Jan 28 15:53:34 2012 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:53:34 -0500 Subject: Some of you like this sort of thing Message-ID: A profile in today's (Saturday's) Times on the singer Paul Plishka, who is retiring after a long career at the Metropolitan Opera. It seems that someone who listened to the radio broadcasts of the Met thought that his parents had been such sports fans that they had named him "Baseball". She was mishearing the way his name was called as the cast of characters was run down. The announcer would say some character would be sung by bass Paul Plishka. NY Times, January 28, 2012, A section, p. 21, col. 1 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Jan 28 16:12:45 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:12:45 +0000 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? Message-ID: As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html [Begin excerpt] In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only become available to the man in the street, but are virtually unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." [End excerpt] **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. *** http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:15:15 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:15:15 +0000 Subject: Szechuan pepper In-Reply-To: <201201281357.q0S8tZiS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thefreedictionary.com has 3 clickable pronunciations of the word "Szechuan" US flag = ~Sechwun UK flag = ~Zekwin ("sz" spoken like an ~s that changes to a ~z) speaker icon = ~Sechwwaan (~ww starts stressed syllable) But it also has "Sichuan" US flag ~Sichwaan UK flag ~Sichwaan icon shows "Szechuan" ~Sechwwaan >... Sichuan is the > preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered > today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, > so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. > The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only > listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese > /Si-chua-n/", Scanning youtube.com for "Szechuan" you more often find "Sichuan" pronounced as it looks ~Sichwaan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHw-r3z-1p4 Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:56:59 -0500 > From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Szechuan pepper > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Szechuan pepper > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Actually, this comment is about more than just "Szechuan pepper". First, > "Szechuan" is the correction preferred by the Windows 7 built-in > spell-checker. The same spelling is in the OED entry, with the only > listed alternative form Szechwan. The etymology note gives "< Chinese > /Si-chua-n/", but no such allowances are made for spelling forms, with > not a single example listing the Sichuan form. Yet Sichuan is the > preferred Wiki form and one that perhaps is more commonly encountered > today. And Sichuan occurs in quite a number of occasions in OED quotes, > so it is somewhat surprising that no mention of it is made. > > Another oddity is the fact that the Szechuan entry is for noun only, > with the usual qualifier "used attrib." Yet, Szechuanese is listed both > as adjective and noun, with the noun covering the "dialect" and the > residents of Szechuan. > > But consider one of the examples under adj.: > > > 1980 E. Behr /Getting Even/ vii. 89 There was the smell of real > > Szechuanese cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. > > Now, just over 30 years later (at least, in the US), this is more like > to appear as > > > There was the smell of real Szechuan cooking, chillies and hot sesame oil. > > Following the OED convention, this case is merely "attrib.", despite > appearance to the contrary. In fact, only "Szechuan-style" is considered > an adjective, e.g. > > > 1979 /United States 1980/81/ (Penguin Travel Guides) 179 Honolulu > > also has several Mandarin or Szechwan-style Chinese restaurants. > > But compare all the forms of Szechuan to Taiwan. Both form adjectives > with -ese, but Taiwan rarely appears in "attrib." position, while such > usage of Szechuan is pervasive (complete with "Sichuan Garden", "Sichuan > Cuisine" and "Sichuan Delight" restaurants gracing virtually every major > US city). On the other hand, "Taiwanese" is much more common than > "Szechuanese". I've had similar concern about other "attrib." entries, > but here there may be an additional complication that the -an ending may > be re-interpreted as an adjectival suffix. (Compare Moldova/Moldavia --> > Moldovan/Moldavian) Yunnan and Hunan suffer similar fates, while Taiwan > really becomes an exception rather than the rule. (Note that OED has no > entries for Hunan and Yunnan, while the entries for Hunanese and > Yunanese are similar to Szechuanese in every way.) I would argue that > "Szechuan hotpot" (ma la hotpot) is not "hotpot of Szechuan" but short > for "Szechuan-style hotpot", i.e., an adjective. > > Returning back to the spelling issue, there is no "Szechuan pepper" in > the current OED at all. But there are two quotations that mention > "Sichuan pepper". > > Galanga n. > > 2000 A. Dalby /Dangerous Tastes/ 78 Five-spice powder ... . In China > > itself the typical mixture is likely to include Sichuan pepper and > > perhaps fennel or licorice or dried ginger or galanga. > > Pepper n. 1.b. > > 1991 /Chile Pepper/ *5* ii. 45 The brown or black seeds are also > > marketed under the name 'Sichuan pepper' or 'Chinese pepper' and are > > highly aromatic with hints of citrus. > > This is not particularly surprising, as "Sichuan pepper" is one of the > latest "in" spices (since the FDA ban on its Chinese imports had been > lifted in 2005) and usually occurs with that particular spelling (at > least, in the US--can't really speak for the rest of the world). > > But this is further complicated by frequent attempts to anglicize such > things. Virtually every package of Sichuan pepper that is imported from > China is /not/ labeled as Sichuan pepper, but instead reads "Prickly > ash". Right now I am looking at a package of spices from Chuanzhen > Industry Co. whose English label reads "Green Prickly Ash". > > Prickly ash does appear under prickly adj. Special Uses S2. > > > prickly ash n. any of various North American prickly shrubs or trees: > > /spec./ /(a) /a shrub with spiny bark, the devil's walking stick, > > /Aralia spinosa/ (family /Araliaceae/); /(b) /any of several spiny or > > prickly pinnate-leaved shrubs or trees of the genus /Zanthoxylum/ > > (family /Rutaceae/), /esp./ either of two shrubs whose aromatic bark > > is used medicinally, the toothache tree, /Z. americanum/ and the > > Hercules' club /Z. clava-herculis/. > > It is interesting that only North American varieties are mentioned for > both (a) and (b) and only the use of the aromatic bark enters into the > the picture (correctly identifying it as the "toothache tree"). But Wiki > description of Sichuan pepper expands on this a bit. > > > Sichuan pepper (or Szechuan pepper) is the outer pod of the tiny fruit > > of a number of species in the genus /Zanthoxylum/ (most commonly /Z. > > piperitum/, /Z. simulans/, and /Z. schinifolium/), widely grown and > > consumed in Asia as a spice. > > So this is indeed the same genus as the North American prickly ash. This > sounds to me like a pretty good reason to expand the definition. > > The third component of this is the fact that the Japanese version of > this spice is usually labeled "sansho" or "sansho pepper" (although > other names include "Chinese pepper", "Japanese pepper", "Indonesian > lemon pepper", etc.). The Wiki article contains an explanation that the > Japanese name is a direct borrowing of one of the Chinese names, which > is translated as "mountain pepper", rather than a corruption of Sichuan. > Most dictionaries, including the OED, do not have a sansho entry. > > > A brief follow up on the galanga entry mentioned above. The OED has both > Galanga and Galangal entries, with the former simply diverting to the > latter in definition, while possessing a separate list of forms and a > separate etymology note. That seems odd, particularly given one of the > quotations under galangal: > > > 1867 K. L. Dey /Indigenous Drugs India/ 11 The tubers of Alpinia > > Galanga ... are faintly aromatic, pungent, and somewhat bitter, and > > are sold by the name of galangal by native druggists. > > Both forms appear to have coexisted virtually from the start. > > There is an interesting twist on this, provided by GoogleTranslate. > Galangal is "translated" into Dutch as is--perhaps reflecting the > supposed translation, but more likely simply reflecting lack of a > corresponding entry. Galanga is translated as Galangawortel. But if you > shop for galangal powder at a Dutch supermarket, you will not find it > under any name even remotely resembling either of these--instead, the > label would reflect its Indochinese (or Indonesian) origin--"Laos". ( > http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galanga ) > > Translating into Russian has the opposite effect--"galanga" is > unchanged, indicating lack of the corresponding entry, while "galangal" > is translated as "kalgan" (long used as a traditional medicinal plant). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org C ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:16:57 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:16:57 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Either way, Warhol's claim is more realistic. JL On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 16:52:13 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:52:13 +0000 Subject: you do have our backs In-Reply-To: <201201281617.q0SC6QoV013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From Prez O's 1-12-12 speech "...But I will tell you, we?re not shy about saying the one thing we miss is we don?t get to see our friends as much. And as I look around this room, it?s a reminder that you guys do have our backs, have continued to have our backs, and we?re grateful for you and couldn?t be more appreciative of everything that you?ve done." And if you guys stand with me, if you guys have my back as you guys have had my back for all these years, I guarantee you that we are going to win this election. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 17:24:36 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:24:36 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen: Many thanks for that valuable citation. I have access to a library that lists the book in its catalog and will try to check it on paper in the coming weeks. Here is an interesting variant attributed to Warhol in 1968 (apparently). I will try to check this cite on paper, too. Cite: Circa 1968, The culture vultures: or, Whatever became of the emperor's new clothes? by Alan Levy, GB Page 203, G. P. Putnams Sons, New York. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on aper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] And Andy Warhol, who ought to know, purrs to the media that today's turnover in art is only the beginning. "There's going to be a day when no one will be famous for more than a week. Then everyone will have a chance to be famous." [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 28 19:00:43 2012 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:00:43 -0800 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281724.q0S8S8lm011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: I just discovered that a change was made in 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY. Originally, when Dr. Floyd is passing security, the computer asks for his Christian name,which always bugged me. No, the computer asks? for his "full name." brenda lester rhinebeck, ny ________________________________ From: Garson O'Toole To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society Poster:? ? ? Garson O'Toole Subject:? ? ? Re: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody ? ? ? ? ? ? ? will be famous"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen: Many thanks for that valuable citation. I have access to a library that lists the book in its catalog and will try to check it on paper in the coming weeks. Here is an interesting variant attributed to Warhol in 1968 (apparently). I will try to check this cite on paper, too. Cite: Circa 1968, The culture vultures: or, Whatever became of the emperor's new clothes? by Alan Levy, GB Page 203, G. P. Putnams Sons, New York. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on aper; Data may be inaccurate) [Begin excerpt] And Andy Warhol, who ought to know, purrs to the media that today's turnover in art is only the beginning. "There's going to be a day when no one will be famous for more than a week. Then everyone will have a chance to be famous." [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster:? ? ? Stephen Goranson > Subject:? ? ? Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will >? ? ? ? ? ? ? be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jan 28 20:28:17 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:28:17 -0500 Subject: Quote: In the future everyone will be famous (or anonymous) for 15 minutes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The Yale Book of Quotations, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations and > some other references list the following version of Andy Warhol's > well-known comment about transitory fame: > > In the future everybody will be world famous for fifteen minutes. > > The cite given in YBQ is for a 1968 "exhibition catalogue, Moderna > Museet, Stockholm, Sweden". Oxford gives the same cite: "volume > released to mark his exhibition in Stockholm, February?March, 1968". > > There is evidence that Warhol may have used a version in 1967 without > the modifier "world". > It has become transmuted for many into "Everyone will be famous for fifteen seconds". Many many hits for the truncated version, although not quite as many as the longer original. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 20:38:12 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:38:12 -0500 Subject: not quite WOTY Message-ID: ... or even prefix OTY. If OED is to be believed, the root/prefix crypto- is far more widespread than one would assume from basic reading. One could say it's crypto-popular. ;-) However, in the current presidential cycle (and I mean 2007-2012, incorporating both campaigns), two fairly novel compounds have been created, perhaps even three by the third one has fallen by the wayside. The first two reared up during the 2007 campaign--crypto-Muslim and crypto-Socialist. Of course, this is a somewhat twisted usage--it was only apparent among Obama supporters when criticizing the opposition suffering from yet another version of "X Derangement syndrome" (where X==Obama, with first use noted when X==Clinton). That is, birthers and other assorted Obama critics did not shy away from using the full, non-crypto versions, while those criticizing them pointed to their belief that Obama was a crypto-Socialist and crypto-Muslim. With time, the Socialist label stood on its own when mocking critics, with "crypto-" now being dropped, but "crypto-Muslim" is still in use, but less frequently, as the Obama opponents who believe that he is in fact a Muslim have become less vocal in public. Now, however, another crypto- has arisen in a similar context, although it is in use by more than just supporters. Mitt Romney has always been a big question mark in movement-Conservatism circles, and belief that he's merely a poseur is quite common. While Romney supporters insist that Romney is a "true conservative", some liberal commentators are only too happy to slap the label of "crypto-liberal" on the critisism by Romney's Republican opponents. http://goo.gl/Qb8VW > Given his financial situation, he?s having to substitute sheer > viciousness for ad time. And his Super-PAC?s Florida ads certainly > leave little to the imagination in painting Romney as a flip-flopping > crypto-liberal who loves him some baby-killers The point here is that "crypto" is clearly used here in mockery of both sides in the primary debate. And, if I were to venture a guess, people who used the term had first become comfortable with using "crypto-Muslim", which, in itself, was a parallel to "crypto-Jew" that became the politically correct substitute of "Marrano(s)" when the claim that "Marrano" was a term derived from a word for "pig" became popular. In any case, "crypto-" is much more popular now (or so it seems) than it was five years ago. VS-) PS: I am using "prefix" to describe the position, not the role of the form, fully aware that the terminology is not quite accurate. OED has it as "comb. form", but that strikes me as a kludge. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Jan 28 23:09:31 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:09:31 -0500 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: Message-ID: "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know who to confront first!" Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.' " That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the continental United States"? FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a black American is "black." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 02:00:51 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:00:51 -0500 Subject: yeomans Message-ID: Prof. Christine Chism is a UCLA medievalist. On the History Channel documentary "The Real Robin Hood" (2010), Prof. Chism more than once uses "yeomans" as the plural of "yeoman." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 02:44:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:44:21 -0500 Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will be famous"? In-Reply-To: <201201281612.q0S8tZnS009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I examined the 1995 edition of "Constructivism: Origins and Evolution" on paper and found that the quotation located by Stephen falls within a preface by George Rickey that is dated July 1967. There is a separate preface for the revised edition that is dated December 27, 1994. This suggests that the original preface has been reprinted without modification. Cite: 1995, "Constructivism: Origins and Evolution: Revised Edition" by George Rickey, [Preface to 1967 edition; Author: George Rickey; Location: East Chapham, N.Y.; Date: July 1967], Page x, George Braziller, New York. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] The history of the past is fixed; one has but to find it. The history of the present alters as one watches (sometimes because one watches), and the relation of the actors changes like poles seen from a moving train. Some of the artists I originally chose to study have changed their style and have become, artistically, other people. The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." An original limitation to fifty artists soon seemed too rigid. [End excerpt] I will try to access the 1967 edition in a week or three, but I think the July 1967 date for the passage above is credible. Garson On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Warhol's "everyone will be famous" from Rivers' "everybody will > be famous"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As Garson posted,* Time Magazine, October 13, 1967 reported: > Whole new schools of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > > Might this famous quote have been inspired by or borrowed from a similar quote on a similar art subject by another NY artist from a book published earlier (**) that same year?***: > > The art explosion introduces so many new names and new kinds of work that we are approaching the time when, as Larry Rivers says, "Everybody will be famous." > > Constructivism; origins and evolution, by George Rickey (G. Braziller, 1967) page x. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > *Cite: 1967 October 13, Time, Sculpture: Master of the Monumentalists, > Time, Inc, New York. (Online Time magazine archive) link > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837402,00.html > [Begin excerpt] > In the year 1967, the styles and statements of America's brash, > brilliant and often infuriating contemporary artists have not only > become available to the man in the street, but are virtually > unavoidable. And with proliferation comes confusion. Whole new schools > of painting seem to charge through the art scene with the speed of an > express train, causing Pop Artist Andy Warhol to predict the day "when > everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." > [End excerpt] > > **amazon claims it was punlished Jan. 1, 1967, but I haven't confirmed that. > *** > http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=warhol+predict+%22everyone+*+famous%22&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_max:Dec%2031_2%201968&num=10#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max%3ADec+31_2+1968&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&pbx=1&oq=+%22everybody+will+be+famous%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5919l8539l6l9177l7l7l0l0l0l0l54l323l7l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d060f9bb033e8866&biw=1125&bih=830 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 29 04:24:17 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:24:17 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled Message-ID: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the New York Post. Into the database it goes: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 04:51:08 2012 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:51:08 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <201201290434.q0SC6Q5l013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Ben Zimmer > Subject: ? ? ? eggcorn: saddled -> straddled > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html > "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." > > Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples > from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the > New York Post. Into the database it goes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It had a verse, "Let me saddle my old straddle Underneath the western skies" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 05:00:26 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:00:26 -0500 Subject: ink eraser Message-ID: Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, > used to erase writing in ink or blots. And this: gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php > Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old > tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to > point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in > Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His > headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading > six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of > Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's > day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th > birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more > like a knife. More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the heart and all that... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sun Jan 29 05:27:38 2012 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:27:38 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled Message-ID: >> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html >> "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, >> fumed." >> >> Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples >> from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the >> New York Post. Into the database it goes: >> >> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It > had a verse, > > "Let me saddle my old straddle > Underneath the western skies" > > -- > -Wilson I believe it was "Let my straddle my own saddle". Neal ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Sun Jan 29 08:06:16 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:06:16 +0100 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: In-Reply-To: <80.4A.03291.B50842F4@louvi-msg> Message-ID: Don't assume that she had African ancestry. She might have been of Indian background. Think Nicki Minaj. Note that Indian-West Indians are often difficult for those not familiar with that community to place into our US standard racial categories because of West Indian influenced hairstyle and clothes meet East Indian facial features. Of lexical interest, they're sometimes called "Chutneys" in NYC which I am assured is not offensive. Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was > very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, > since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know > who to confront first!" > > > Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white > comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white > Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that > he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his > father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in > South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." > > "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.' " > > > That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged > on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend > *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her > visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. > > Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics > of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the > continental United States"? > > FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan > Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a > black American is "black." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 08:21:36 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 03:21:36 -0500 Subject: Spoken by Eliot Chang, Asian-American comic: In-Reply-To: <201201282310.q0S8S8t0011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Actually, what got my attention is "West-Indian". I though "Caribbean" is more PC these days... But UK use is different. And I am not sure what's used "at home". I suppose, he could have meant that she was of South Asian ancestry, e.g., Indian or Tamil, but from from the West Indies as well. VS-) On 1/28/2012 6:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "I used to date a West-Indian girl. She was from Trinidad. She was > very dark-skinned. In fact, she _looked black_. When we went out, > since she _looked black_ and I look how I look, racists didn't know > who to confront first!" > > > Last year, on this same program - Comedy Central Presents - a white > comedian, discussing Obama's race, noted that major problems for white > Americans are the fact that his father was a native of Kenya and that > he himself wasn't born in the continental United States. "If his > father had been a native of Chicago and he had been born in > South-Central, we [white people] would *know* that he was black." > > "You have to be born in the United States to be 'black.'" > > > That seems to be the way that Chang feels. The point of the bit hinged > on the fact that *he* definitely is not white and his girlfriend > *appeared to be black*, even though she was actually not, despite her > visual affect/aspect, what with her not being an American. > > Is it generally the case that, for non-black Americans, the semantics > of the concept, _black_, *necessarily* includes "born in the > continental United States"? > > FWIW, I feel that, for some people, a person born in sub-Saharan > Africa of sub-Saharan ancestry is not "black" in the same sense that a > black American is "black." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 15:59:42 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:59:42 +0000 Subject: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh Message-ID: More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ and the _mikraah_ (rod).' Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 16:07:24 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:07:24 +0000 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh Message-ID: I left out the word whip (!) , corrected below. ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:59 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ (whip) and the _mikraah_ (rod).' Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 29 16:49:49 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:49:49 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <1516DE5090E24D11BFDFF7AB565DD81A@neal> Message-ID: I remember this the way Wilson does. But then I never had printed lyrics, only Gene Autry's pedestrian voice and a low-fidelity sound reproduction (AM radio, or maybe a 78 RPM platter with a worn needle). And [ol] and [on] are almost identical, differing only by the nasalization of [n] versus [l], and particularly the position before the stressed first syllable of "saddle," both an [l] and an [n] would be virtually deleted. Semantically, both "old" and "own" make sense. On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:27 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >>> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html >>> "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, >>> fumed." >>> >>> Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples >>> from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the >>> New York Post. Into the database it goes: >>> >>> http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ >>> >>> --bgz >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zimmer >>> http://benzimmer.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> Are you old enough ti remember that old song, "Don't Fence Me In"? It >> had a verse, >> >> "Let me saddle my old straddle >> Underneath the western skies" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > > I believe it was "Let my straddle my own saddle". > > Neal > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Jan 29 16:55:40 2012 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:55:40 -0500 Subject: ink eraser In-Reply-To: <4F24D26A.5040406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sweet as remembered kisses after death--or not? On Jan 29, 2012, at 12:00 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > >> ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, >> used to erase writing in ink or blots. > > And this: > > gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php >> Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old >> tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to >> point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in >> Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His >> headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading >> six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of >> Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's >> day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th >> birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more >> like a knife. > > More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink > eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the > heart and all that... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Jan 29 17:03:24 2012 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:03:24 +0000 Subject: ink eraser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Knives were used by scribes, e.g., in ancient Egypt, to erase, scrape, ink, from papyrus. This obtained, I think, both in the era of rush brush and palette writing and later reed pen and inkwell writing. E.g.,, see: http://books.google.com/books?id=4q1MHDoFVwkC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=knives+erase+papyrus&source=bl&ots=vCt_Sjti_a&sig=EOksI4Xt6e0XEdZQNyO6tHUvdGk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXolT5OmHMfAtwfVsonnAw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=knives%20erase%20papyrus&f=false Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 17:17:18 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:17:18 -0500 Subject: must-share headline Message-ID: The facts behind the headline are not particularly new, but the point is made rather succinctly, once you know the context. http://goo.gl/4p5nk Economy: The Man-cession and the He-covery VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Jan 29 18:33:19 2012 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:33:19 -0600 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291607.q0T9jd1O007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very nice find, Stephen. And now a bibliographic reference: Gerald Cohen (compiler; in Comments on Etymology--a series of working papers--, vol. 40, no. 1-2, Oct./Nov. 2010: 'Stephen Goranson's suggestion that "kibosh" in "put the "kibosh on" may derive from "kurbash" (a type of whip)...............................................pp. 12-41 Addenda, especially: A. Stephen Goranson: ca. 1830: Broadside 'Penal Servitude' with lines 'It would put the kibosh like winking / That is if they was to introduce the lash".............................................p. 42 B. Matthew Little's preliminary treatment (Nov. 2009; only now published) suggesting "kibosh" from ""kurbash"....................pp. 45-48. The bottom line here is that a long-standing etymological puzzle seems to have been solved, and with the exception of Matthew Little's very welcome preliminary treatment, the solution has come primarily in the very valuable messages sent to ads-l. (My only role in the above bibliographic reference is as compiler. Full credit is given throughout the article to the various contributors.) Gerald Cohen On 1/29/12 10:07 AM, "Stephen Goranson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", > 1846, kibosh > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > I left out the word whip (!) , corrected below. > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Stephen > Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:59 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: [ADS-L] "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh > > More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, > kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now > kurbaj mean whip, lash: > > '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back > shall taste of the _kurbaj_ (whip) and the _mikraah_ (rod).' > > Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 > [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" > {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > Google Books: > http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibos > h&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybo > sh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false > > http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 18:17:05 2012 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:17:05 -0500 Subject: no rhyme for "castle" In-Reply-To: <201111011527.pA1AmcDo014319@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Orange you all glad we're done with this one? Mark Mandel On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:27 AM, James A. Landau < JJJRLandau at netscape.com> wrote: > On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:53:35 Zone minus 0400 Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> > wrote: > > >If you say the "T" in "castle," > >It still won't rhyme with "pastel." > >You may have a go at "bastle," > >But that won't rhyme with "orange" > >Or "silver." What a hastle! > > > Aftermath of a Winter Battle > > The sky was clouded and gray > The sun shone a pale silver > The wind was cold that day > I felt a bitter chill. B-r-r-r > > The life-giving blood that had bled > From the bodies of the poor Inj- > uns stained the snow a bright red > But on their skin was a pale orange > > On their clothes it showed a dark brown > It was maroon on their dirty bandages > And a dull pink where it fell on bare ground > Under those stark corpse-blood-and-snow sandwiches > > Here a dead mother holding a dead babe > I could imagine watching her pull > Her small child away from the yawning grave > Before the cold wind turned him purple > > I thought the horror would stop the sun on its dail- > y path through the sky, but, no, Mr. sun > Thick with thorrow lithped hith trail > Through the sky as he did every day of the month > > - James A. Landau > > _____________________________________________________________ > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 19:26:41 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:26:41 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201290806.q0T660Ew023634@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:00:41 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:00:41 -0500 Subject: eggcorn: saddled -> straddled In-Reply-To: <201201290434.q0SC6Q5l013935@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gingrich-campaign-traveling-press-own-damn-ride-014411649.html > "The reporters on the bus, now straddled with an unexpected new cost, fumed." This has now been silently corrected to "saddled." > Turns out this is a very common eggcorn -- I found recent examples > from such sources as Dow Jones, Reuters, the Financial Times, and the > New York Post. Into the database it goes: > > http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/1114/straddle/ -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:12:47 2012 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:12:47 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:22:01 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:22:01 -0500 Subject: facundity Message-ID: I came across an example of recency fallacy and word formation peeving from 1798. ============ http://goo.gl/doZmW The Monthly Review. Volume 26. August 1798 Monthly Catalogue, for August, 1798. Law. p. 449 Art. 22. /The Study and the Practice of the Law considered in their various Relations to Society. /In a Series of Letters. By a Member of Lincoln's Inn. 8vo. pp. 450. 6s. Boards. Cadell jun. and Davies. 1798. We have read these letters with that satisfaction which invariably accompanies the perusal of those works which recommend the cultivation and practice of what is excellent and respectable in life. The author of this performance is entitled, however, to additional praise beyond that which belongs to virtuous intentions and irreproachable sentiments: for his composition shews an elegant and refined taste, and an intimate acquaintance with the purest models of English style. We cannot, at the same time, agree with him that these letters are particularly calculated to benefit the students of law; the subjects discussed in them being, with very few exceptions, of too general a nature to confine their utility to any one profession; but they may with nearly equal advantage be studied by the members of every profession, and by all descriptions of young men, whatever may be their destination in life. A letter is set apart for the consideration of /Facundity/; by which term, we imagine, the author proposes to convey the idea of eloquence, or perhaps fluency in speech. We are aware that the words /Facundia /and /Facunditas, /in the Latin language, as expressing the former quality, are correct and classical: but we have been unable to discover the adoption of the word by any English writer. Neither is it to be found as a substantive in Johnson's Dictionary ; though the epithet /facund/, from /facundus, /is introduced in the sense of /eloquent /;--without, however, any authority to support it. We agree with the author ' that these letters will not be found useless in the libraries of those who have yet to fix the destination of their children in life, and the perusal of them will probably be extended beyond the circle of professional readers. They are addressed,' he adds, ' to the young and rising mind;' and to them we recommend, with confidence, a serious attention to instructions which have the amelioration of the heart and the improvement of the understanding for their principal objects. ============ OED lists facund adj. from Chaucer to N. Bailey's Dictionary, then cites one more single source from 1859--needs an update, although this piece offers an interesting interdating for 1798. Facund n. is listed as obsolete, from 1340 to 1540 (or thereabouts). Facundity runs from 1530 to 1773 with an addition citation from Times Literary Supplement of 1921. I am quite certain more recent example can be excavated fairly easily, but not by means of GB--"facund" here is rendered as "factoid" and "facundity" is completely mangled, so a direct search in older sources is rather hopeless. [In fact, "factoid" only dates to Normal Mailer's annoyance at Nixon in 1973, but GB list 141 earlier examples, over 100 of which turn out to actually be "factors".] But Wordnik offers a small number of citations--all in Project Gutenberg, but from 19th and 20th century. Century Dictionary of 1906 (much like it's predecessors for the previous two decades and Chambers before that; as well as for another decade following) lists facund, facundious and facundity, but all as obsolete. The same can be said about the bulk of post-1800 hits (at least those that are legitimate). The rest are quotations of much earlier material (e.g., http://goo.gl/QBPBS ). Then I come across this (1991). http://goo.gl/0YA4R Ecology of the mountain waters. By Shanker D. Bhatt, Ravindra K. Pande. New Delhi: 1991 The Degrading Fish Habitats of the Kumaun. (iii) Decrease of Reproductive Potential. p. 317 > The fish facundity largely depends on the body size, the composition > and abundance of food and ecological conditions of the habitat > (Nikolsky, 1969; Moyle and Cech, 1982). The undernutrition or scarcity > of the natural carnivorous diet and disturbances in the habitat > ecology may be responsible for the decrease in the facundity and > fertility of the hill-stream fishes, particularly the Mahseers. The > lowering of the facundity in lake Mahseer or Kumaun has been > attributed to the degraded environmental conditions in the lentic > waters (Pathani, 1978; Pant and Bisht, 1981). Of course, what is meant here is "fecundity", but, perhaps, this Indian publisher didn't have a proofreader. It takes just one more click to get a warning on the subject. http://goo.gl/5nyAO The Superior Person's Second Book of Weird and Wondrous Words. By Peter Bowler. Jaffrey, NH: 1992 p. 29 > FACUNDITY n. Eloquence. Not to be confused with fecundity, i.e. > fertility. (But, rather wonderfully pronounced the same way.) "Pray > silence for our next speaker, Mr. Spinelli, who will give us a > demonstration of his impressive facundity." A rather blatant example can be found here ( http://goo.gl/sEPsX ), where multiple charts are labeled with "Observed facundity/Predicted fecundity" (2004, same Indian publisher!). And it's not just that publisher: http://goo.gl/mo41g The Oregon countryman, Volume 8 (5). February 1916 p. 364 > We do not wish to be understood as wishing to detract from the > importance of the facundity. Undoubtedly the increase in the facundity > of the two breeds noted by Rommel is due in part to the attention of > breeders who have selected to improve this characteristic. An > examination of the Herd Book of such breeders as record the facundity > of animals serves to emphasize the point just made and usually the > larger number farrowed the greater difference between the number > farrowed and the number raised. Hence we infer that much of the > advantage which a sow may secure by virtue of breeding a large number > of pigs per litter is lost because of other considerations either > avoidable or otherwise. This is followed by a photo, captioned, "A Sow That is Capable of Handling a Large Litter". I doubt any of these sources is talking about the /eloquence/ of fish, chickens or pigs. Another apparent typo/eggcorn is in the Atlantic (1903). http://goo.gl/M9MM3 The Atlantic Monthly. Volume 92 (549). July 1903 A National Type of Culture. p. 76 > Cosmopolitanism is apt to be rather a thing of versatility, > adaptability, /facundity/, sojourning homelessness, and the general > use of common denominators. Unsurprisingly, I came across both words also in SAT prep materials, sneaky little bastards that they are. But, back to facundity. [Also in GB http://goo.gl/V2kGP ] http://goo.gl/y79OS The Project Gutenberg EBook of A History of the French Novel, Vol. 2, by George Saintsbury A HISTORY OF THE FRENCH NOVEL. Volume 2. By George Saintsbury. London: 1919 p. 207 > I do not make the very facile and somewhat futile criticism that she > would have written better if she had written half or a quarter as much > as she did. She could not have written little; it is as natural and > suitable for Tweed to "rin wi' speed" as for Till to "rin slaw," > though perhaps the result--parallel to but more cheerful than that > recorded in the old rhyme--may be that Till has the power not of > drowning but of intoxicating two men, where Tweed can only manage one. > But this engrained fecundity and facundity of hers inevitably make her > work novel-journalism rather than novel-literature in all points but > in that of style, which has been discussed already.[197] > [197] I have said little or nothing of the short stories. They are > fairly numerous, but I do not think that her /forte/ lay in them. This "fecundity" has nothing to do with "healthy growth" or "fertility" or "the ability to handle a large litter", but rather matches a derivative definition: "the intellectual fruitfulness of a creative imagination"; or, in AHD, "Productive or creative power". Speaking of fecundity--OED has six different shades of meaning, but only the animal reproductive one has any quotes beyond 1884. Also needs an update. A few more, in random order. http://goo.gl/HYA2w Charles Dickens. By George Augustus Sala. In The mystery of Edwin Drood, Volume 2. By Charles Dickens. Leipzig: 1870 p. 193 > The audience whom Mr. Dickens addressed was composed of educated and > cultivated persons who would have looked upon a real murder with as > much horror as they would have displayed aversion from the spectacle > of the hanging of the murderer; and no healthy feelings could possibly > be awakened by the simulation in marvellous fluency of language and > facundity of gesture of a revolting and sanguinary scene. http://goo.gl/z3ZxT The Nation. No. 911. New York. December 15, 1882 p. 496/3 > There could hardly be a more elevating spectacle than the way in which > Mr. Blaine's antagonists occasionally lend a hand in getting him out > of the scrapes into which his remarkable facundity so often plunges him. http://goo.gl/ux8gW http://goo.gl/g2Dml Social England: A Record of the Progress of the People in Religion, Laws, Learning Arts, Industry, Commerce, Science, Literature and Manners, from the Earliest Times to the Present Day. Volume 5. Edited by Henry Duff Traill. London: 1896; New York: 1899 Chapter 17. The Age of Walpole, 1714-1742. p. 84 > We thus miss Mandeville, a master of rough, repulsive, but vigorous > and idiomatic English, Dutchman as he was, and nearly as vivid a > realist as Defoe; Shaftesbury, his elegant predecessor and provoker; > the Deist crew who wrote and drew down on themselves the wrath of > better writers than themselves; Leslie, the /Doctor Invincibilis /of > later English controversy; Law, as stout a controversialist as he, and > something more than a partisan; Bentley, Leslie's equal in profane and > scholarly polemic; the rugged style but admirably lucid thought of > Bishop Butler; the smooth, if treacherous facundity of Conyers > Middleton; the ragings of the Bangorian controversy. http://goo.gl/8APW6 The Spectator. March 28, 1896 The Radical Discontent. p. 437/1 > But though we agree with Mr. Hume in wondering at the facile > confidence placed by his party in Lord Rosebery, we do not at all > agree with Mr. Hume in imagining that either he himself, or any other > leader, however passionately disposed to utter the /saeva indignatio > /of the Radical party that "the horny-handed sons of toil" do not lead > happier and brighter lives, would improve the position of that party > by raising stentorian cries against the House of Lords and all sorts > of other English institutions to which what he is pleased to call Lord > Rosebery's "facund tongue" gives such inadequate utterance. http://goo.gl/0hVgg Wordsworthiana: A Selection from Papers Read to the Wordsworth Society. London: 1889 J. Russell Lowell's Address as President, 1884. p. 176 > There is no limit to his ? let us call it facundity. http://goo.gl/M7H3Z Punch, or the London Charivari. 1896 Jottings and Tittlings. By Baboo Hurry Bunseng Jabberjee, B.A. [N. Antsley]. No. VIII. April 4, 1896. p. 160/2 > With this, I sat down, leaving my audience as /sotto voce/ as fishes > with admiration and amazement at the facundity of my eloquence, and > should indubitably have been the recipient of innumerable > felicitations but for the fact that Miss Spink, suddenly experiencing > sensations of insalubriousness, requested me, without delay, to > conduct her from the assemblage. No. XV. June 27, 1896. p. 304/2 > His Honor, laughing good-naturedly, did tell me that if I liked to > assume the plumes of a daw, it was no affair of his, and kindly > promised to respect my confidences -- at which I was greatly relieved. > Indeed, throughout the evening, nothing could exceed his affability, > for, being seated on the other side of the hostess, opposite myself, > he showed me the greatest honour and deference, frequently requesting > my views on such subjects as Increased Representation of the People of > India, the National Congress, and so forth; upon whioh, being now > perfectly reassured and at my ease, discoursed with facundity, and did > loudly extol the intellectual capacity of the Bengalis, as evinced by > marvellous success in passing most difficult exams, and denouncing it > as a crying injustice and beastly shame that fullest political powers > should not be conceded to them, and that they should not be eligible > for all civil appointments /pari passu, /or even in priority to > Englishmen. http://goo.gl/DXqLw Shakespearian and Other Essays. By James Smith. Cambridge: 1974 [Digital version: 2010] The Winter's Tale. p. 135 > Yet if Autolycus's summary of his wares has enabled the spectator to > conceive anything, it is that nothing to be found this - or any - side > of reality baffles the ballad-makers' facundity. http://goo.gl/J2J03 The Quarterly Review. Volume 12 (23). October 1814 [Review of] The Works of the English Poets, from Chaucer to Cowper; including the Series edited with Prefaces Biographical and Critical, by Dr. Samuel Johnson; and the most approved Translations. The additional Lives by Alexander Chalmers. p. 75 > Du Bartas had been ambassador in Scotland, and James, who vainly > tempted him to remain at his court, had translated some of his works > himself, perhaps not entirely to his own satisfaction, for Hudson > tells us he maintained that 'the lofty phrase, the grave inditement, > the facund terms of the French Sallust could not be followed, nor > sufficiently expressed in our rude and unpolished English language.' This is a somewhat false hit, as Du Bartas lived in the second half of the 16th century--right in the period when "facund" was being used. I really have no idea which "Hudson" is being referred to (John Hudson, 1662-1719?). There is more, but I'll let someone else finish the excavation VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:30:12 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:30:12 -0500 Subject: new use for "firewall" In-Reply-To: <201201121858.q0CFuJY8009815@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From Elon Green, this morning: http://goo.gl/C9nbN > This is a long way of saying that, though political predictions are a > tough racket, I?ll happily offer one of my own: When Mitt Romney wins > Florida, and subsequently the nomination, South Carolina, long known > as ?The Firewall?, will cease to be an electorally pivotal station of > the cross in the GOP?s nominating process. VS-) On 1/12/2012 1:48 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: >> So it goes from physical to electronic (digital communications) to >> metaphorical. >> >> http://goo.gl/eL45K >>> *His Super PAC is erecting a firewall in South Carolina. [...] > Ah, the old South Carolina firewall. See Safire, citing me, on John > Glenn's firewall in SC in 1984: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwlnSafire-t.html > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sun Jan 29 20:51:23 2012 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:51:23 -0500 Subject: One last word on 'milk' Message-ID: I was buying some milk yesterday, and noticed in the cooler the item called 'Muscle Milk', which, immediately under its name on the bottle proclaims : 'Contains no milk' For those who want to know what on earth it does contain, here's a website: http://www.cytosport.com/products/muscle-milk/muscle-milk-ready-to-drink Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) +1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Jan 29 20:52:24 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:52:24 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness Message-ID: The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the vestibular system and the visual system. The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to find early examples. Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper Date: 29 Apr 1996 http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ [Begin excerpt] 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to Simulator Sickness First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. [End excerpt] The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams Gamasutra Date: August 14, 1998 http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm [Begin excerpt] One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. [End excerpt] http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp [Begin excerpt] What is cybersickness? Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. [End excerpt] http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html [Begin excerpt] That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing these things and can, in the case of interactive applications (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. [End excerpt] The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 21:57:13 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:57:13 -0500 Subject: undercrackers In-Reply-To: <201201281444.q0S8S8iG011308@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Does this word have any US currency? Etymologically, does it refer to "crack" meaning "crotch" or "intergluteal cleft" or so? Does it mean "underpants", or does it mean "underwear"? I.e., can it refer to such upper-body underwear as vest/undershirt/camisole or brassiere? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 22:02:45 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:02:45 -0500 Subject: correction RE: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291759.q0T660cn007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/29/2012 1:33 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: > .... > > The bottom line here is that a long-standing etymological puzzle > seems to have been solved, and with the exception of Matthew > Little's very welcome preliminary treatment, the solution has > come primarily in the very valuable messages sent to ads-l. > (My only role in the above bibliographic reference is as compiler. > Full credit is given throughout the article to the various > contributors.) .... -- I already sent a response, which presumably has been lost in Cyberspace or caught in the spam filter, so I'll try again: ---------- The personal 'name' seems to me to be essentially "Kibosh Ibn Humbug", a joke name wherein "kibosh" might 'mean' either "bosh" ("nonsense") (as it did sometimes later) or "stop" as in the contemporary "put the kibosh on". Whether one can make more of it with better understanding of the 'Orientalist' context of the time, I don't know. No doubt "kurbaj" meant approximately "whip" (used for punishment). Here I believe the word is introduced superfluously along with other 'Middle Eastern' words in jocular imitation of various 'Orientalist' works. I myself do not [yet] see a presumptive etymological connection between "kurbaj" and "kibosh". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 01:19:12 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:19:12 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting. My wife has a condition called BPPV, Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo, and when we went to see Hugo we were worried she might not be able to manage the experience. But her only real problem was with the 3D action movies that were being previewed (interminably, it seemed), everything from a Star Wars 3D remake to a Titanic 3D remake to some new movies, none of which seemed like they'd be a major sacrifice to give up. She deliberately avoided Avatar when that came out, but Hugo turned out not to pose any real problems, and she felt it was definitely worth seeing, 3D and all. So at least for some people with some forms of vertigo, this 3D sickness isn't brought on automatically by watching movies that use the technology, but depends on how they use it. (We did notice that taking off the glasses and watching doesn't work. And yes, I know Hugo was released in 2D versions too, but it would be a shame to miss the full experience, assuming it doesn't make you ! sick.) LH On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea > experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) > is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical > space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the > vestibular system and the visual system. > > The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term > 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. > > 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! > http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness > > Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to > find early examples. > > Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between > the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper > Date: 29 Apr 1996 > http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ > > [Begin excerpt] > 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to > Simulator Sickness > > First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator > sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be > offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems > and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible > contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature > of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of > current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also > contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. > [End excerpt] > > The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams > Gamasutra > Date: August 14, 1998 > http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm > [Begin excerpt] > One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to > motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. > [End excerpt] > > > http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp > [Begin excerpt] > What is cybersickness? > Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by > users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, > 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view > moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation > can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples > of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. > [End excerpt] > > > http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html > [Begin excerpt] > That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing > these things and can, in the case of interactive applications > (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. > [End excerpt] > > > The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does > not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. > > OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to > vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), > esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. > 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR > scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 01:20:31 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:20:31 -0500 Subject: undercrackers In-Reply-To: <4F25C0B9.3090201@nb.net> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Does this word have any US currency? > > Etymologically, does it refer to "crack" meaning "crotch" or > "intergluteal cleft" or so? > > Does it mean "underpants", or does it mean "underwear"? I.e., can it > refer to such upper-body underwear as vest/undershirt/camisole or brassiere? > And is it a blend with "firecrackers"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 03:05:30 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:05:30 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201292013.q0T9jd80007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > > Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 30 03:21:30 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:21:30 -0500 Subject: 3D sickness, cybersickness, VR sickness, simulator sickness In-Reply-To: <8959784C-AA97-4C8F-A68E-CE928980042F@yale.edu> Message-ID: I understand (vaguely) that there is "real 3D" and ... I dunno, "remastered 3D". The former, which Hugo is in, is made with two cameras, the latter by manipulating a 2D original. The previews were probably all of remastered 2D movies (e.g. Titanic, Star Wars). Perhaps Larry's wife can tolerate the real but not the ersatz. Avatar was "real 3D" too, I think -- perhaps she might have ventured it. Joel At 1/29/2012 08:19 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Interesting. My wife has a condition called BPPV, Benign Paroxysmal >Positional Vertigo, and when we went to see Hugo we were worried she >might not be able to manage the experience. But her only real >problem was with the 3D action movies that were being previewed >(interminably, it seemed), everything from a Star Wars 3D remake to >a Titanic 3D remake to some new movies, none of which seemed like >they'd be a major sacrifice to give up. She deliberately avoided >Avatar when that came out, but Hugo turned out not to pose any real >problems, and she felt it was definitely worth seeing, 3D and >all. So at least for some people with some forms of vertigo, this >3D sickness isn't brought on automatically by watching movies that >use the technology, but depends on how they use it. (We did notice >that taking off the glasses and watching doesn't work. And yes, I >know Hugo was released in 2D versions too, but it would be a shame >to miss the full experience, assuming it doesn't make you ! > sick.) > >LH > >On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > The title of this post contains terms that refer to the nausea > > experienced when the visual system (especially the stereopsis system) > > is artificially manipulated. Some simulators can move you in physical > > space while displaying video streams. These systems manipulate the > > vestibular system and the visual system. > > > > The latest attempt to popularize 3D-movies has caused the term > > 3D-sickness to circulate more widely. > > > > 3D Sickness: 3D movies make me sick...literally! > > http://www.squidoo.com/3dsickness > > > > Here are some examples of other types of sickness. I have not tried to > > find early examples. > > > > Can your eyes make you sick?: Investigating the Relationship between > > the Vestibulo-ocular Reflex and Virtual Reality by Mark H. Draper > > Date: 29 Apr 1996 > > http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-96-3/ > > > > [Begin excerpt] > > 3.0 Speculations on the Visual and Vestibular System Contributions to > > Simulator Sickness > > > > First a brief overview of the concept and characteristics of simulator > > sickness will be presented. Second the sensory conflict theory will be > > offered as a potential link between the visual and vestibular systems > > and simulator sickness, followed by a discussion of other possible > > contributions that these systems may offer to understanding the nature > > of simulator sickness. Lastly an annotated list will be presented of > > current-technology virtual interface artifacts that may also > > contribute to simulator sickness, along with the associated rationale. > > [End excerpt] > > > > The Virtual Reality Gorilla-Rhino Test by Ernest Adams > > Gamasutra > > Date: August 14, 1998 > > > http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/010_The_VR_Gorilla-Rhino_Test/010_the_vr_gorilla-rhino_test.htm > > [Begin excerpt] > > One of the worst of these is "VR sickness," essentially identical to > > motion sickness. VR sickness is caused by a number of factors. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > http://www.cybersickness.org/what_is_sickness.asp > > [Begin excerpt] > > What is cybersickness? > > Cybersickness is a term to describe motion sickness experienced by > > users of head-steered Virtual Reality systems (McCauley and Sharkey, > > 1992 in PRESENCE ). In a typical Virtual Environment, users often view > > moving scenes while they remain physically stationary. This situation > > can cause a compelling sense of self motion (called vection). Examples > > of cybersickness symptoms include nausea, eye strain,and dizziness. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html > > [Begin excerpt] > > That cognitive dissonance adds to the confusion created by viewing > > these things and can, in the case of interactive applications > > (simulators) lead to "cyber-sickness"--very much like sea-sickness. > > [End excerpt] > > > > > > The OED has motion sickness with a cite in 1881. The 1995 cite does > > not contain the term "VR sickness" but that is the theme. > > > > OED: motion sickness n. nausea and malaise, sometimes proceeding to > > vomiting and prostration, induced by motion (or simulated motion), > > esp. during travel by boat, plane, or automobile. > > 1995 Guardian 30 Mar. (Online Suppl.) 3/5 The artificiality of VR > > scenes causes nausea and motion sickness in 60 per cent of users. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jan 30 03:59:44 2012 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:59:44 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. -Matt Gordon ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > > Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 30 04:14:53 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:14:53 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201300359.q0T9RiE2011254@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom, don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some erosion, but both my native NY/N NJ dialect, and the dialect of the students I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot = [kat] and caught = [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me, as you must know from your years in NJ, if not CT. Paul Johnston On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > > -Matt Gordon > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? > > In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." > > Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! >> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> >> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >> >> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. >> >> Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. >> >> Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 30 06:04:10 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 01:04:10 -0500 Subject: Another "kybosh" In-Reply-To: <201201300120.q0T660xF007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Irish? Yiddish? Hebrew? Turkish? Why not Chinese? (^_^) Here's a fairly early instance of "kybosh" which I don't remember seeing before: Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/7dp5rdz ---------- Charles Selby, _Maximums and Speciments of William Muggins, Natural Philosopher and Citizen of the World_ (George Routledge [London], 1846) (preface dated 1841): p. 247: [apparently regarding cut-throat competition, here apparently musical concerts versus drama] <> ---------- Here "kybosh" seems to = "finisher", more or less as usual. I'm not inclined to take the "Chinese" part too seriously. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Jan 30 14:40:30 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:40:30 -0500 Subject: "cornet postilion" and "caperiosky" [Was: Another "kybosh"] In-Reply-To: <4F2632DA.1090609@nb.net> Message-ID: At 1/30/2012 01:04 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Irish? Yiddish? Hebrew? Turkish? Why not Chinese? (^_^) > >Here's a fairly early instance of "kybosh" which I don't remember seeing >before: > >Google Books: > >http://tinyurl.com/7dp5rdz > >---------- > >Charles Selby, _Maximums and Speciments of William Muggins, Natural >Philosopher and Citizen of the World_ (George Routledge [London], 1846) >(preface dated 1841): p. 247: > >[apparently regarding cut-throat competition, here apparently musical >concerts versus drama] > ><Hanover-square Rooms, and at the houses of the nobillerty, where there's >hall the Hitalians and hevery hextrornary foreigner as can be picked >hup. Then come the concerts and hopperas and waudeweals at the >public-houses, and last of hall, as a regler finisher, we gets the >"Concerts Musard." That's wot the Chinese calls the _kybosh_ -- the poor >hactors is bowled hout and must shut hup shop; none on 'em can stand >against a solo on the _cornet postilion_, or a caperiosky, or the >_tombone_, or the _double-barrelled flagelet_.>> > >---------- > >Here "kybosh" seems to = "finisher", more or less as usual. > >I'm not inclined to take the "Chinese" part too seriously. Nor am I, for it (I take it for "those whose origin is the mysterious East") or for the rest of the piece. But Doug, tell us what kinds of musical instruments a "cornet postilion" and a "caperiosky" are! (Your instance of "caperiosky" seems to be the only one in the entire universe (that is, of Google).) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 30 17:07:03 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:07:03 -0600 Subject: ink eraser (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201290512.q0S8tZUA009088@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I'd imagine it refers to something like the top item on this catalog page (1913 Keuffel & Esser Co.). They are used to scrap ink off vellum/parchment drawings. They are more or less obsolete, now, with everything being done in CAD programs and large format laser printers and plotters, but I've got a couple in my old drafting kits. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Victor Steinbok > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:00 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ink eraser > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: ink eraser > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > Someone will have to explain the discrepancy. The OED: > > > ink-eraser n. a piece of prepared caoutchouc, or similar substance, > > used to erase writing in ink or blots. > > And this: > > gothamist.com/2012/01/24/grave.php > > Have you ever walked around the cemeteries of New York reading the old > > tombstone inscriptions? Well, if that's not your thing, we're here to > > point you in the direction of George Spencer Millet's grave in > > Woodlawn Cemetery, which tells a tragic and unusual story. His > > headstone reads: "Lost life by stab in falling on ink eraser, evading > > six young women trying to give him birthday kisses in office of > > Metropolitan Life Building." This happened the day after Valentine's > > day, on February 15th, 1909--which also happened to be his 15th > > birthday. And to clarify, an ink eraser is not an eraser, it's more > > like a knife. > > More at the link, but no real explanation on how a knife becomes an ink > eraser. But it sounds a lot like Crocodile Hunter's death. Stab to the > heart and all that... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Jan 30 17:39:23 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:39:23 -0600 Subject: ink eraser (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201301707.q0U69qCV031450@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > I'd imagine it refers to something like the top item on this catalog > page (1913 Keuffel & Esser Co.). They are used to scrap ink off > vellum/parchment drawings. They are more or less obsolete, now, with > everything being done in CAD programs and large format laser printers > and plotters, but I've got a couple in my old drafting kits. > > Another here, from 1948 Gordon Draftsmen's Supply Catalog: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/gordon-1948/gordon-1948-p55.jpg and here, from J. H. Weil & Co., 1953: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/weil-1953/weil-1953-p225.gif 1954-59 K&E: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/ke-1954/ke-1954-p267.gif 1955 Defiance Sales: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/defiance-1955/defiance-1955-p267.jp g 1971 Alvin General catalog: http://leadholder.com/assets/catalog/alvin-1971/alvin-1971-p88.jpg Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 18:13:30 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:13:30 -0500 Subject: pink slime Message-ID: Giving something a name can help to destroy its marketability. I am not sure who came up with the name "pink slime" but it does not appear to be the trademark of the product (ammoniated beef trimmings). As late as 2009, NYT failed to use the term in its article on the subject. http://goo.gl/V9l2q There is a possibly interesting turn of phrase in that article: > "Several packers have unofficially raised concern regarding the use of > the product since the perception of quality is inferior," the 2002 > memo said. "But will use product to obtain lower bid." ["Inferior" modifies "perception" rather than "quality"--at least, this is what I see. It could fixed by replacing "is" with "as", but that opens another can of worms.] As for "pink slime", http://goo.gl/Ddnqk > McDonald's said this week that it was no longer using the > controversial ground beef additive known as "pink slime" in its > hamburger recipe. Taco Bell and Burger King have also reportedly > repudiated the "slime," which consists of spare beef trimmings that > have been treated with ammonium hydroxide to make them safe and at > least semi-palatable. > The move came after "Food Revolution" and "Naked Chef" star Jamie > Oliver made public calls for chains to abandon the "slime," which has > been manufactured by Beef Products Inc since 2001. Some are pointing > to his advocacy as a central factor behind McDonald's decision. > Even if Oliver was the most prominent critic of "pink slime," though, > he wasn't alone. The /New York Times/ raised serious doubts about > "pink slime" in a 2009 investigation of the product. It was also > criticized in the 2010 documentary "Food Inc." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jan 30 19:28:55 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: "cornet postilion" and "caperiosky" [Was: Another "kybosh"] In-Reply-To: <201201301440.q0U6ADKl013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/30/2012 9:40 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > But Doug, tell us what kinds of musical instruments a "cornet > postilion" and a "caperiosky" are! (Your instance of "caperiosky" > seems to be the only one in the entire universe (that is, of Google).) -- The whole book is done in eye-dialect with many malapropisms. I suppose "cornet postillion" represents "cornetta di postiglione", Italian for "post horn" (musical instrument). Maybe "caperiosky" represents "capriccio" or something like that? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 19:49:47 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:49:47 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201300415.q0T9jdH0007155@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT calls her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she used to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Paula") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catching it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul, and I will stand in precious awe of you. Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Johnston > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom, don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some erosion, but both my native NY/N NJ dialect, and the dialect of the students I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot = [kat] and caught = [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me, as you must know from your years in NJ, if not CT. > > Paul Johnston > On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov, Ash, and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has been widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces) for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > > > > -Matt Gordon > > ________________________________________ > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:05 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > > > Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymore in Canada? You know that for sure? > > > > In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have no difficulty communicating, then improving your pronunciation is unnecessary, unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a native speaker of American or Canadian English." > > > > Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in USA as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but they are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phoneme does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would be "awe"some. > > > > Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Yes, how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately describes their phonological inventory! > >> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:26 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> > >> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappeared from US English tutorials. > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > >> > >> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye bye. > >> > >> Please help save the "awe" phoneme, before it's too late. > >> > >> Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. > >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From raindoctor at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 19:56:12 2012 From: raindoctor at GMAIL.COM (V) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:56:12 -0800 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201291926.q0T660iJ007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom, Had you lived in the 14th century, what would you have done to stop the great vowel shift? Today's "awe" /?/ was /??/ then. Why can't you change your "awe" to /??/ ? Pedro V On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has > disappeared= > from US English tutorials. > =20 > http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > =20 > The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where each > t= > ake the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. bye > b= > ye. > =20 > Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > =20 > =20 > > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Mon Jan 30 20:26:34 2012 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:26:34 -0800 Subject: an odd example of legalese Message-ID: Here is what Reuters says: "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of tics-like symptoms." ============================================ Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: A or B is not the cause of C What I infer they meant us to understand is this: A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C Which could be succinctly put as: Neither A nor B is the cause of C (Do the Venn diagram.) ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? Brian Hitchcock ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 20:37:26 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:37:26 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <005401ccdf8d$75646bc0$602d4340$@skechers.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > Here is what Reuters says: > > "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an > infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of > tics-like symptoms." > ============================================ > > Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses > the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: > > A or B is not the cause of C > > What I infer they meant us to understand is this: > > A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C > Which could be succinctly put as: > Neither A nor B is the cause of C > > (Do the Venn diagram.) The Venn diagram won't help, since this would be an instance of "free choice permission", which is a misleading label for the general phenomenon of disjunctions with the force of conjunctions. Four such cases: (1) negation ("De Morgan's Law" contexts) "I don't eat meat or fish" = "I don't eat meat" & "I don't eat fish" (2) conditionals "If you eat meat or fish, you're not a vegetarian" = "If you eat meat you're not a vegetarian" & "If you eat fish you're not a vegetarian" (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" & "You can go to the beach" "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" (4) generics "Tigers live in Siberia or India" = "Tigers live in Siberia" & "Tigers live in India" In each case, there's a true disjunctive reading possible, brought out by a continuation like "?I don't remember/know which" or "Guess which". But all things being equal, the conjunctive reading is more likely. The tricky thing about the example "A or B is not the cause of C" is that it doesn't obviously fall into any of these categories, but if you take it to be paraphrasable along the lines of "Choose A or B, it doesn't matter which. That's not the cause of C" it's similar to the other examples. > > ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', > rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? > Yes, I would. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL Mon Jan 30 20:56:51 2012 From: lynne.hunter at NAVY.MIL (Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:56:51 -0700 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201302037.q0UIsO7d013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This reminds me of the humorous exchange in which a mother, teacher, or some such authority figure asks a disobedient child something like: "Do you want to grow up to be a criminal or a Congressman?" and the kid replies something like: "Sounds good to me!" Does anybody know the exact example? Lynne Hunter -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Monday, January 30, 2012 12:37 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: an odd example of legalese ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: an odd example of legalese ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > Here is what Reuters says: > > "The Le Roy school is safe," Hammond said. "The environment or an > infection is not the cause of the students' tics. There are many causes of > tics-like symptoms." > ============================================ > > Even the above Reuters phrasing strikes me as being off, in that it uses > the conveniently short, but inexact, construction: > > A or B is not the cause of C > > What I infer they meant us to understand is this: > > A is not the cause of C, and B is not the cause of C > Which could be succinctly put as: > Neither A nor B is the cause of C > > (Do the Venn diagram.) The Venn diagram won't help, since this would be an instance of "free choice permission", which is a misleading label for the general phenomenon of disjunctions with the force of conjunctions. Four such cases: (1) negation ("De Morgan's Law" contexts) "I don't eat meat or fish" = "I don't eat meat" & "I don't eat fish" (2) conditionals "If you eat meat or fish, you're not a vegetarian" = "If you eat meat you're not a vegetarian" & "If you eat fish you're not a vegetarian" (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" & "You can go to the beach" "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" (4) generics "Tigers live in Siberia or India" = "Tigers live in Siberia" & "Tigers live in India" In each case, there's a true disjunctive reading possible, brought out by a continuation like "...I don't remember/know which" or "Guess which". But all things being equal, the conjunctive reading is more likely. The tricky thing about the example "A or B is not the cause of C" is that it doesn't obviously fall into any of these categories, but if you take it to be paraphrasable along the lines of "Choose A or B, it doesn't matter which. That's not the cause of C" it's similar to the other examples. > > ---- Also, wouldn't you be more inclined to write of 'tic-like symptoms', > rather than 'tics-like symptoms'? > Yes, I would. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:03:22 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:03:22 +0100 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= > s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= > d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= > la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= > hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = > "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = > you. > =20 > Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = > now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > >> =20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------ >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Paul Johnston >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> =20 >> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= > rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= > ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= > =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= > ars in NJ=2C if not CT. >> =20 >> Paul Johnston >> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: >> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > -------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > -------- >>> >>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = > and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= > een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= > for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. >>> >>> -Matt Gordon >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= > m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> >>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= > re in Canada? You know that for sure? >>> >>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= > o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= > ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= > native speaker of American or Canadian English." >>> >>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= > A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= > hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= > me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= > e "awe"some. >>> >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= > --------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= > --------- >>>> >>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= > cribes their phonological inventory! >>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= > om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> >>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= > ared from US English tutorials. >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >>>> >>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= > ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= > e bye. >>>> >>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. >>>> >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:25:59 2012 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIfutF012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think Alexander Gil, who decided anything higher than [ae:] in name, tale, etc. was the providence of "dandies and silly little girls" (roughly translated from the Latin) in 1621 is alive and well. And did he win? Well, I, like most of you, have [ei] and I'm neither a dandy nor a silly little girl. Tom probably has [ei] too. And, shock, horror! Later on, this change involved a merger with the vowel in rain, tail, too! A lot of early 17c. orthoepists didn't like that. They fought it until after the English Civil War, even though the merger was apparently variable in at least somewhat genteel circles since Shakespeare's time. I'm trying to find out in my research (really) when Cockneys adopted it, but the surrounding area to London didn't until the 19c, and some areas fairly nearby probably still keep the two classes apart (though on our side of the pool, we all merged them, except in Newfoundland). When speakers want a vowel shift, they get a vowel shift. Gil or no Gil. Paul Johnston On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= >> s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= >> d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= >> la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= >> hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = >> "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = >> you. >> =20 >> Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = >> now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". >> >> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >> >> >>> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= >> ------ >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Paul Johnston >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------ >>> =20 >>> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= >> rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= >> ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= >> =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= >> ars in NJ=2C if not CT. >>> =20 >>> Paul Johnston >>> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: >>> =20 >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= >> -------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> -------- >>>> >>>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = >> and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= >> een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= >> for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. >>>> >>>> -Matt Gordon >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= >> m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>> >>>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= >> re in Canada? You know that for sure? >>>> >>>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= >> o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= >> ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= >> native speaker of American or Canadian English." >>>> >>>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= >> A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= >> hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= >> me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= >> e "awe"some. >>>> >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= >> --------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." >>>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> --------- >>>>> >>>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= >> cribes their phonological inventory! >>>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= >> om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] >>>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>>>> >>>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= >> ared from US English tutorials. >>>>> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs >>>>> >>>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= >> ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= >> e bye. >>>>> >>>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. >>>>> >>>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. >>>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:20:03 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:20:03 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIsOB5013371@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge > must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 21:30:48 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:30:48 -0500 Subject: Xsters Message-ID: James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: http://goo.gl/FKsy > In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the > /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a > rival bank sounding off indignantly "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, pranksters, gangster, monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:36:21 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:36:21 -0500 Subject: Xsters In-Reply-To: <4F270C08.5010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: > > http://goo.gl/FKsy >> In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the >> /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a >> rival bank sounding off indignantly > > "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, > pranksters, gangster, --and mobster. But probably not lobster; they're not tasty enough. LH > monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the > last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from > "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old > formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is > it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the > mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Jan 30 21:40:46 2012 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: Xsters In-Reply-To: <201201302131.q0UIfu0b012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > > James Wimberley comments on the RBS bonus fallout: > > http://goo.gl/FKsy >> In another glimpse into the entitlement world of the banksters, the >> /Sunday Times/ (yesterday, p.25, paywall) quotes the chairman of a >> rival bank sounding off indignantly > > "Bankster" sounds like a put-down to me. On par with hucksters, > pranksters, gangster, monsters and ministers (OK, I'm kidding about the > last two). I suspect that mocking Xster terms have been "derived" from > "gangster". But 1) are most of them really mocking? (aside from the old > formations that happen to have the same coincidental ending) and 2) is > it really related to "gangsters"? It almost sounds like a variant of the > mocking -er generalizer (birther, tenther, deather, etc.) "Bankster" is a blend of "bank" and "gangster" long predating the recent rash of "-er" groups. First used in _Time_ in 1932, in the era of the Pecora Commission. I wrote about it here: http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/1770/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Jan 30 21:50:23 2012 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:50:23 -0800 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302130.q0UIfu0H012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >> >> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? > Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, > Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's > the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? > > --bgz I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 30 22:39:19 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302200.q0UIfu5n012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You mean like the joke? http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm DanG On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >>> >>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) >> >> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? >> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, >> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >> >> --bgz > > I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jan 29 19:29:23 2012 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:29:23 -0500 Subject: "your back shall taste of the kurbaj (whip)", 1846, kibosh In-Reply-To: <201201291559.q0T660Uj007887@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 1/29/2012 10:59 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > .... > > More evidence that kibosh (as in "put the kibosh on"), and kybosh, korbadj, kurbach, kourbach, qirbach, qurbash, courbache, corbage, kurbash, and now kurbaj mean whip, lash: > > '...Eat all that is set before you, or, by the soul of Hosseyn, your back shall taste of the _kurbaj_ and the _mikraah_ (rod).' > > Punch, or the London Charivari vol. X (1846) p. 273, col. 2 > [article title]"Egyptian Impressions" > {and note the PN Kybosh-... in col. 1] > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > Google Books: > http://books.google.com/books?id=yv8CAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA273&dq=whip+kybosh+OR+kibosh&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGclT_nkGca2tweQ2fGZDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=whip%20kybosh%20OR%20kibosh&f=false > > http://tinyurl.com/7zwcjmu -- The personal 'name' seems to me to be essentially "Kibosh Ibn Humbug", a joke name wherein "kibosh" might 'mean' either "bosh" ("nonsense") (as it did sometimes later) or "stop" as in the contemporary "put the kibosh on". Whether one can make more of it with better understanding of the 'Orientalist' context of the time, I don't know. No doubt "kurbaj" meant approximately "whip" (used for punishment). Here I believe the word is introduced superfluously along with other 'Middle Eastern' words in jocular imitation of various 'Orientalist' works. I myself do not [yet] see a presumptive etymological connection between "kurbaj" and "kibosh". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 00:37:03 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:37:03 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302103.q0UIfutF012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This from an ESL teacher at an ESL site: "I feel that the use of ah/awe is dialectal. Not every US dialect even recognizes the difference. To simplify with my clients, I don't even teach the difference. They have bigger issues to make their speech more intelligible!" There goes the "awe" phoneme. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Newman > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > > > > > Michael Newman > Associate Professor of Linguistics > Queens College/CUNY > michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:49 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks Paul. But I'm afraid you're too optimistic. My cousin from CT call= > > s her son ~Shaan now instead of ~Shaun (written name is "Shawn") as she use= > > d to. My wife and she both call my other cousin from CT (written name "Pau= > > la") Polla ~Paalu now. It's in the media now. Everywhere. My wife's catc= > > hing it. Do me a favor and always correct them when they say your name as = > > "Poll" ~Paal insted of "Paul" ~Paul=2C and I will stand in precious awe of = > > you. > > =20 > > Meanwhile m-w.com is mispronouncing the word "awe" as "ah". It's all over = > > now. Even though the symbol is for "awe" the speaker says "ah". > > > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > > > >> =20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > > ------ > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Paul Johnston > >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ------ > >> =20 > >> Tom=2C don't worry about your precious "awe" phoneme--there's been some e= > > rosion=2C but both my native NY/N NJ dialect=2C and the dialect of the stud= > > ents I teach in W MI preserve it just fine. For me cot =3D [kat] and caught= > > =3D [ko at t]. There are plenty just like me=2C as you must know from your ye= > > ars in NJ=2C if not CT. > >> =20 > >> Paul Johnston > >> On Jan 29=2C 2012=2C at 10:59 PM=2C Gordon=2C Matthew J. wrote: > >> =20 > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > > -------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." > >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > > -------- > >>> > >>> The discussion in the Atlas of North American English (Labov=2C Ash=2C = > > and Boberg 2006) suggests the merger of the vowels in LOT and THOUGHT has b= > > een widespread across Canada (outside some parts of the Atlantic provinces)= > > for at least several generations and maybe as long as 150 years. > >>> > >>> -Matt Gordon > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of To= > > m Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 9:05 PM > >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>> > >>> Are you saying that the English phoneme "awe" is not in existance anymo= > > re in Canada? You know that for sure? > >>> > >>> In their Englishaccent.com faq section they say " If you already have n= > > o difficulty communicating=2C then improving your pronunciation is unnecess= > > ary=2C unless you have some strong personal motivation to sound more like a= > > native speaker of American or Canadian English." > >>> > >>> Looks to me they are saying that the "awe" phoneme does not exist in US= > > A as well. Is this prescriptionistic? They have a niice prograrm here but t= > > hey are saying that walk is to be pronounced "wok" and that the "awe" phone= > > me does not exist. This is not right. They need to include it. That would b= > > e "awe"some. > >>> > >>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > >>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------= > > --------- > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>>> Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J." > >>>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= > > --------- > >>>> > >>>> Yes=2C how dare those Canadians develop a tutorial that accurately des= > > cribes their phonological inventory! > >>>> http://www.englishaccentcoach.com/about.aspx > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of T= > > om Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM] > >>>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 29=2C 2012 1:26 PM > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >>>> Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > >>>> > >>>> It finally happened. The phoneme "awe" (backward c in IPA) has disappe= > > ared from US English tutorials. > >>>> > >>>> http://tinyurl.com/6vfvuvs > >>>> > >>>> The same phonetic symbol is given for "pot" "walk" and "clock" where e= > > ach take the "ah" ~aa sound. There is no symbol for the "awe" ~au sound. by= > > e bye. > >>>> > >>>> Please help save the "awe" phoneme=2C before it's too late. > >>>> > >>>> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > >>>> See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> =20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > = > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 31 00:50:07 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:50:07 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <16D10429-455C-4C57-9B78-5CC59582FA48@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 1/30/2012 03:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >(3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts >"You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" >& "You can go to the beach" >"He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" Is this really correct? Aren't these disjunctive choices? The & says that both are possible together. But "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach, but not both (at the same time)." "He could be Italian or he could be Greek, but he cannot (no one can) be both." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 00:52:13 2012 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:52:13 +0000 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: <201201302239.q0UIfuCp012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass but now lives in LA. The voices of thefreedictionary.com say USA - ahsome ~aasum UK - ohsome ~oesum speaker icon awesome ~ausum Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now Fl 9. See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 > From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You mean like the joke? > > http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm > > DanG > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: > >>> > >>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge > >>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) > >> > >> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? > >> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, > >> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's > >> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? > >> > >> --bgz > > > > I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. > > > > Benjamin Barrett > > Seattle, WA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 01:18:53 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:18:53 -0500 Subject: an odd example of legalese In-Reply-To: <201201310050.q0V0oAOd020404@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 1/30/2012 03:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> (3) "free-choice" permission and possibility contexts >> "You can go to the movies or the beach" = "You can go to the movies" >> & "You can go to the beach" >> "He could be Italian or Greek" = "He could be Italian" & "He could be Greek" > > Is this really correct? Aren't these disjunctive choices? The & > says that both are possible together. But > > "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach, but not both > (at the same time)." > "He could be Italian or he could be Greek, but he cannot (no one can) be both." > That's a relevant, but orthogonal factor. Our assumptions about the world determine whether the "both" is a possibility, but it's never guaranteed, any more than in "He can be Italian, and he can (also) be Greek: hard to say which he is". If I say "You can have soup and you can have salad", there's no guarantee that you can have both. And you can certainly tell a child who says there's nothing to do, "You can go to the movies, and you can go to the beach, but you can't do both" without contradiction. Or "We can spend our vacation in the mountains and we can spend it on the shore. Not enough time to do both, though." But it's partly based on our real world assumptions: If you change the example to "It could be cold or snowy": this says each is an active possibility, but it doesn't either guarantee or rule out the possibility that it could be both, since coldness is compatible with snow in a way of Italianness vs. Greekness. Notice also that you've altered the examples: for many (not all) speakers, the possibility of conjunctive readings is reduced in full as opposed to reduced disjunctions, i.e. in your "You can go to the movies or you can go to the beach" vs. my example (actually Hans Kamp's, from a 1973 paper) "You can go to the movies or (to) the beach". For some speakers the former allows only the "I can't remember which" reading, not the "it doesn't matter which" (= "free choice permission") one. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 01:19:48 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:19:48 -0500 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass but now lives in LA. > > The voices of thefreedictionary.com say > USA - ahsome ~aasum > UK - ohsome ~oesum > speaker icon awesome ~ausum > > Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. > > In the English speaking world, perhaps? LH > > > > > >> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 >> From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> You mean like the joke? >> >> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Michael Newman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This merge >>>>> must be stopped! If not, America might as well end up as the 11th province. ;) >>>> >>>> You laugh, but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time? >>>> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan, Little Bear, Franklin, >>>> Max & Ruby), you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >>>> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >>>> >>>> --bgz >>> >>> I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Merge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle, WA >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jan 31 02:30:43 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:30:43 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items Message-ID: Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: dirty-trickster doomster dumpster ecodoomster folkster fraudster funkster gloom and doomster gloomster greenster grungester hoopster opster poster scamster telescamster Webster (WWWwise) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 02:47:51 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:47:51 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310230.q0UMhxpX012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: seamster gamester pollster teamster (yes, the Teamsters started out Team Drivers' International Union) (made-up trademark) grokster (made-up trademark) poinster VS-) On 1/30/2012 9:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > > > > dirty-trickster > > doomster > > dumpster > > ecodoomster > > folkster > > fraudster > > funkster > > gloom and doomster > > gloomster > > greenster > > grungester > > hoopster > > opster > > poster > > scamster > > telescamster > > Webster (WWWwise) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Jan 31 04:16:34 2012 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:16:34 -0800 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310230.q0UIelKT031450@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > > dirty-trickster... nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 05:09:10 2012 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 00:09:10 -0500 Subject: transphobic Message-ID: A recent blog header http://goo.gl/oJ52d Air Canada confirms they must comply with transphobic law OED has a quote (under hate crime), but that is all. > 2001 /Independent/ 17 Aug. 1/6 Scotland Yard is creating a category > of hate crime, 'transphobic crime', to cover offences against > transgender people. Wiki has it under Transphobia. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Tue Jan 31 07:15:53 2012 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:15:53 +0100 Subject: "awe" phoneme has disappeared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eastern NE has long had the merge. It's one of the two main shibboleths (along with the short-a split) of Boston vs. NY r-less speech. Daniel Ezra Johnson has a book on the border published by??(for dramatic pause)????ADS! Stability and Change Along a Dialect Boundary: The Low Vowels of Southeastern New England Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Jan 31, 2012, at 1:52 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not a joke. Jay Leno says "ah-some" instead of "awesome." He's from Mass = > but now lives in LA. > =20 > The voices of thefreedictionary.com say > USA - ahsome ~aasum > UK - ohsome ~oesum > speaker icon awesome ~ausum > =20 > Standardization would be a good thing. Where would we be without it. =20 > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now Fl 9. > See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > > > =20 > =20 > > > > =20 > >> Date: Mon=2C 30 Jan 2012 17:39:19 -0500 >> From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> =20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------ >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ >> =20 >> You mean like the joke? >> =20 >> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~choh/german.htm >> =20 >> DanG >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Mon=2C Jan 30=2C 2012 at 4:50 PM=2C Benjamin Barrett .com> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------= > -------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >>> Subject: Re: "awe" phoneme has disappeared >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= > -------- >>> >>> On Jan 30=2C 2012=2C at 1:20 PM=2C Ben Zimmer wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon=2C Jan 30=2C 2012 at 4:03 PM=2C Michael Newman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The answer is minimal pair drills in preschool to 6th grade. This mer= > ge >>>>> must be stopped! If not=2C America might as well end up as the 11th p= > rovince. =3B) >>>> >>>> You laugh=2C but have you ever watched Nick Jr. for any length of time= > ? >>>> Because of all the Canadian content (Dino Dan=2C Little Bear=2C Frankl= > in=2C >>>> Max & Ruby)=2C you can hear the Canadian Shift an awful lawt. Where's >>>> the legislation to save our kids' vowels from this northern menace? >>>> >>>> --bgz >>> >>> I think we should throw anyone who produces excess phonemes in jail. Me= > rge until we have only five vowels and then spelling will be simpler. >>> >>> Benjamin Barrett >>> Seattle=2C WA >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 14:03:26 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:03:26 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." Message-ID: Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia article doesn't mention them. Real? Or Memorex? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 14:09:24 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:09:24 -0500 Subject: some _-ster_ items In-Reply-To: <201201310416.q0UMhx4L012905@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the early '80s I noted that "-ster" was being used humorously to create nonce nicknames based on one's given name. HDAS III should have exx. For example, David Barnhart might be referred to as "the Davester." (Not that he necessarily was.) Or addressed as "Davester," though I think direct address was less common. It works best with monosyllabic names. It's still around, AFAIK. JL On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > >> Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: >> >> dirty-trickster... > > nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: > > http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Jan 31 14:35:29 2012 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:35:29 -0500 Subject: mistake in transphobic--mine Message-ID: You cannot fix breakfast for two twenty-somethings and edit at the same time. Thinking gets scrambled. The Steinbock transphobics are, indeed, the same. DKB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jan 31 15:15:38 2012 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:15:38 -0500 Subject: "tacogate"; "posterize"; "the full Mozgov" Message-ID: The former is the inevitable appellation for the recent scandal involving the systematic pattern (and subsequent coverup) of the East Haven, CT police in discriminating against and roughing up Latino residents without cause, which has been known about for a while but (according to a federal inquiry) misrepresented by the local authorities. The "tacogate" label-- http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/jan/30/cross-campus-13012/ --refers to the comment made by Mayor Maturo when asked what he planned to do to help reassure the Latino community after the revelations came out, and he responded that he would maybe have some tacos for dinner. The latter refers to the result of a particularly robust dunk in basketball. The dunker rises up high and embarrasses the defensive player by slamming the ball into the net over him. The hapless dunkee is said to be "posterized". (Not in the OED, which has an irrelevant sense for the word.) Here's ud: posterize: a Basketball term meaning to embarrass some one usually while slamming the ball over them. It refers to the guy whos being dunked on in basketball posters. "Wow that guy just got posterized!" This is also in the recent news because of something that occurred in one of last night's games?well, you can see it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbyOevVAYQI A related item that came up in the discussion of the Griffin dunk is "the full Mozgov", with which I was previously unfamiliar, but it can be googled. (Just the first hit for "full Mozgov" please.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Jan 31 15:33:54 2012 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:33:54 -0600 Subject: some _-ster_ items (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201201311409.q0V6ZD2e010675@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I believe Rob Schneider's "making copies" character on Saturday Night Live did this regularly (1989-1992). > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 8:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > In the early '80s I noted that "-ster" was being used humorously to > create nonce nicknames based on one's given name. HDAS III should > have exx. > > For example, David Barnhart might be referred to as "the Davester." > (Not that he necessarily was.) Or addressed as "Davester," though I > think direct address was less common. > > It works best with monosyllabic names. > > It's still around, AFAIK. > > JL > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------- > --- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: some _-ster_ items > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > --- > > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 6:30 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > > >> Not all of these are new; neither are they all negative: > >> > >> dirty-trickster... > > > > nice, but start with Michael Quinion's entry: > > > > http://www.affixes.org/s/-ster.html > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Jan 31 18:44:40 2012 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:44:40 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") Message-ID: In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass of a ray or a skate which has been modified and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) Earliest I see in Google Books: The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 19:44:21 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") In-Reply-To: <201201311844.q0V6iNu7019349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Intriguing topic, Joel. A PDF of The Scientific Monthly article mentioned is available in JSTOR. Title: Jenny Hanivers, Dragons and Basilisks in the Old Natural History Books and in Modern Times Author: E. W. Gudger The Scientific Monthly , Vol. 38, No. 6 (Jun., 1934), pp. 511-523 Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/15490 The article above says Gilbert P. Whitley wrote an article on this topic and published it in Australian Museum Magazine. A Google Books preview of the book "Mysterious creatures: a guide to cryptozoology" (2002) gives the following citation information. I have not checked this but there is a substantial probability that this is a cite for the earliest match Joel mentions: Gilbert P. Whitley, ?Jenny Hanivers,? Australian Museum Magazine 3 (1928): 262?264 I came across a fully visible 1963 citation in the Internet Archive while trying to determine the cites above: Shadows in the sea: the sharks, skates and rays (1963) http://www.archive.org/details/shadowsinseashar00mcco http://www.archive.org/stream/shadowsinseashar00mcco#page/250/mode/2up [Begin excerpt on Page 251] The monstrosities were brought home (Europe, the United States) by sailors who bought them there. Sailors were seldom fishermen in ports where they could have caught them. Dr. Gilbert P. Whitley, the Australian ichthyologist, says that this trade has been going on for hundreds of years. The curios, peddled as Monkey Fish, Dragons, Basilisks, Mermaids, or Sea Eagles, are sometimes called "Jenny Hanivers" by seafarers. [End excerpt] Garson On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), > there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass > of a ray or a > skate which has been modified > and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) > > Earliest I see in Google Books: > > The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is > Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. > > p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny > Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." > > p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to > regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some > cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The > figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr > which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." > > And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, > part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. > > In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 19:56:08 2012 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:56:08 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." In-Reply-To: <201201311403.q0V6ZD1O010675@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is also the possibility he said them in Russian, which Maclean had learned by 1918. DanG On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John > Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). > > Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia > article doesn't mention them. > > Real? Or Memorex? > > JL > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Tue Jan 31 20:00:29 2012 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:00:29 -0800 Subject: An odd example of legalese (a criminal or a congressman, and an unwritten comma) Message-ID: Lynne Hunter wrote: This reminds me of the humorous exchange in which a mother, teacher, or some such authority figure asks a disobedient child something like: "Do you want to grow up to be a criminal or a Congressman?" And the kid replies something like: "Sounds good to me!" Does anybody know the exact example? --------------------------------------------------------- I never heard that joke before, but as I began reading it, I was anticipating the punch line to be "Of course not!" (or maybe "Hell, no!") I could also imagine a punch line that construes the OR as disjunctive: "What's the difference?" I would like to point out that this joke actually works in print because of the timing nuance of an omitted-from-print, but possibly voiced, comma, which, had it been printed, would have dulled the written joke, if not spoiled it altogether: .. Do you want to grow up to be a criminal, or a congressman? This is the flipside to the superfluous presence of a written comma, which literally makes the joke in the story of the panda who eats, shoots and leaves (kudos to another Lynne. Lynne Truss) Brian Hitchcock Torrance, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 20:31:11 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:31:11 -0500 Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." In-Reply-To: <201201311956.q0VJDJL6028357@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The following 1966 reference has a version of the saying, but it does not connect it to John Maclean. Cite: 1966, "Dictionary of Military and Naval Quotations" edited by Robert Debs Heinl, Category: bayonet, Page 31, Column 2, United States Naval Institute, Annapolis, Maryland. (Verified on paper) [Begin excerpt] A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end. Socialist slogan, early 20th century [End excerpt] The marxists.org website has a collection of speeches and articles by John MacLean. I tried a quick Google search in the marxists.org domain and could not find an instance of the quotation about bayonets. The saying may be worded differently, or I may have missed it: http://www.marxists.org/archive/maclean/index.htm Garson On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is also the possibility he said them in Russian, which Maclean > had learned by 1918. > DanG > > > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: "A bayonet is a weapon with a working man at either end." >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tens of thousands attribute this quote to the Scottish Socialist John >> Maclean (1879-1923: he even got on a Soviet postage stamp in 1979). >> >> Maclean supposedly uttered the words in 1917 or '18, but the Wikipedia >> article doesn't mention them. >> >> Real? Or Memorex? >> >> JL >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 20:37:09 2012 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:37:09 -0500 Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") In-Reply-To: <201201311844.q0V6iNu7019349@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are the specifics for the Time magazine article. The archive is restricted to subscribers: Title: Animals: Jenny Hanivers Date: June 04, 1934 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,754234,00.html On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "there be dragons" ("jenny hanivers") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a region of the seas not yet re-examined by the OED (the Js), > there be jenny hanivers. (Wikipedia: A Jenny Haniver is the carcass > of a ray or a > skate which has been modified > and subsequently dried, resulting in a grotesque preserved specimen.) > > Earliest I see in Google Books: > > The Australian Museum Magazine, vol. 3, allegedly 1927. (Vol. 1 is > Apr. 1921, according to the Harvard catalog.) Snippet. > > p. 263: "I have been unable to learn the source of the name Jenny > Haniver. Perhaps it belonged to some second-sighted fishwife who long ago ..." > > p. 264: "... a skate with malformed pectorals, but I am inclined to > regard it as a Jenny Haniver, fantastically incised perhaps by some > cunning alchemist and vigorously depicted by a skillful artist. The > figure is copied here, as is also one of a more normal Jenny Hanivr > which was associated with it on the same plate in Aldrovandus' ancient work." > > And 1934, from The Scientific Monthly, vol. 38, and Time, vol. 23, > part 2. Also allegedly and snippets. > > In use in the 2000s, including it seems in 5 different books by Philip Reeve. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yekkey at AOL.COM Tue Jan 31 21:21:32 2012 From: yekkey at AOL.COM (Dan Nussbaum) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:21:32 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [SOAPM] Sick visits down In-Reply-To: Message-ID: January was slower than usual, but my perception is probably a bit distorted by having a second full time doc in January for the first time (previously just me and a NP). Another example of substituting me for I. Unfortunately if I say anything about it, I will be thrown off the list serve. Daniel Nussbaum II, MD, FAAP Retired Developmental Pediatrician New Bedford, Massachusetts I ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Jan 31 21:40:00 2012 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:40:00 -0500 Subject: to pinpoint-strike Message-ID: CNN says that U.S. drones can "pinpoint-strike targets." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org