dodge Pompey

Garson O'Toole adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jul 2 20:40:17 UTC 2012


Has the idea of Pompey as a prison been mentioned. (Dan did mention a
prison ship.)?

Cite: 1989, Australian words and their origins by Joan Hughes, Joan Hughes
http://books.google.com/books?id=B7tZAAAAMAAJ&q=Pompey#search_anchor

[Begin extracted text]
Pompey, Obs. [Poss. f. Br. dial. pompey, a name for a house of
correction or reformatory: see EDD sb. 3.] In the phr. to dodge
Pompey, to evade detection (while engaged in an illegal activity); to
avoid carrying out one's responsibilities, esp. to malinger, out of
the sight of one's supervisor.
[End extracted text]

So "dodge pompey" might refer to avoiding "prison", disciplinary
measures, or trouble in general. But there are problems with the
timeline. OED cites for Pompey as a prison start only in 1883, and
"dodge Pompey" was in use many years earlier. So maybe the 1989
analysis is a reinterpretation.

[Begin OED excerpt]
Pompey, n.
2. Eng. regional (Yorks.). A prison. Obs. rare.
1883   T. Lees Easther's Gloss. Dial. Almondbury & Huddersfield 103
Pompey, the House of Correction.

[End excerpt]


On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 7/2/2012 02:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>>Let me start by acknowledging that I don't know the answer.
>
> Certainly I don't.
>
>>We know that the phrase eventually meant avoiding work, but we don't when
>>that began.
>>
>>We also have in the original cites a clear description of ducking
>>cannonballs referred to as dodging Pompey.
>
> True.  But (and see below), this is avoiding danger, not avoiding work.
>
>>Most of the other cites are, to
>>me, too vague, including the lanterns.
>
> Vague, agreed -- But there must be something behind Stephen's two
> earliest quotations:
>
>>1836  Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt. Chamier RN.
>>v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
>>[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no use--the
>>lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were out before
>>the signal could be made.
>
> Would lanterns have been avoiding (dodging) work?  Metaphorically, by
> not working properly?  I suppose perhaps.
>
>>1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F. Chamier, RN. p.145 col. 1
>>Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when danger was near?
>
> Since this is on-line (GBooks); perhaps additional context may
> suggest something (but not much to me!).  Although it's avoiding
> danger, not work.
>
> Finally, we seem to have no idea why "dodging" became associated with
> "Pompey".  "Dodge" = "evade" or = "move to and fro"?  (The latter is
> why I wondered about naval signaling lanterns and the port.)
>
> Joel
>
>>I don't see any of the other cites
>>supporting the notion that dodging Pompey refers to moving lanterns, unless
>>there is a good reason for British sailors to avoid the lights of a British
>>port. Thus my question. Where's the circular reasoning?
>>
>>DanG
>>
>>
>>On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>> >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > At 7/2/2012 02:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> > >I see only one clear reference to lanterns, and that refers to lanterns
>> > >that don't work, so they dodge Pompey,
>> > >
>> > >Who would be trying to dodge the lights of Portsmouth? An impressed sailor
>> > >trying to escape by sea?
>> >
>> > Dan, isn't the above circular reasoning -- it assumes the origin of
>> > the "dodge" in "dodging Pompey" is "trying to avoid something", and
>> > then concludes that "dodging Pompey" is "trying to escape Portsmouth"?
>> >
>> > Rather, what I am wondering is whether "dodging Pompey" originally
>> > had something to do with "dodging" lanterns at Portsmouth, and then
>> > got transferred or generalized to "avoiding work".  See Stephen
>> > Goranson's 1836 find -- might it refer to moving (something) to and
>> > fro, another sense of "dodge", and a failure thereof (the dodged
>> > lanterns at Portsmouth didn't work)?
>> >
>> > Or -- why "dodging Pompey" (dodging Portsmouth?) in particular,
>> > rather than, say "dodging [avoiding] swabbing", or "bilge-pumping",
>> > or some other unpleasant naval task?
>> >
>> > Perhaps Pompey was simply some legendary, notoriously harsh bosun?
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> >
>> > >DanG
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > > -----------------------
>> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > While we're supposing, I still prefer something to do with signaling
>> > > > lanterns at Portsmouth port.
>> > > > Joel
>> > > >
>> > > > At 7/2/2012 01:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> > > > >There may be two distinct connections.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Several of the cites use "dodging Pompey" in the context of avoiding
>> > > > >something coming from enemy boats -- cannon balls? A form of Greek
>> > fire?
>> > > > >The French tended to fire high, so their cannon fire would look more
>> > like
>> > > > >the rocks propelled by a volcano. (The Dutch, and the English
>> > themselves,
>> > > > >fired low, into the body of the ships.) Could dodging Pompey
>> > originally
>> > > > >mean dodging enemy cannon balls fired high?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >"Dodging Pompey" in the context of work might then be a later
>> > development,
>> > > > >influenced by the earlier phrase, or the French prison ship, or the
>> > > > >nickname for Portsmouth, or all of the above.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >And then there's Measure for Measure...
>> > > > >
>> > > > >DanG
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > > > > -----------------------
>> > > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > > > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > > > > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Yes, but my question is really about the connection of "dodging"
>> > with
>> > > > > > "Pompey."
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Joel
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > At 7/2/2012 10:03 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> > > > > > >I know nine reasons:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >http://www.welcometoportsmouth.co.uk/pompey.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >7 is my favorite, followed by 8. 8, however, makes more sense for
>> > > > "dodging
>> > > > > > >Pompey".
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >    - Ships entering Portsmouth harbour make an entry in the
>> > ships log
>> > > > > > *Pom.
>> > > > > > >    P.* as a reference to *Portsmouth Point* (this being too
>> > long).
>> > > > > > >    Navigational charts also use this abbreviation.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >    - *La Pompee* was a captured French ship moored in Portsmouth
>> > > > harbour
>> > > > > > >    and used for prison accommodation, (captured 1793 and broken
>> > up
>> > > > 1817).
>> > > > > > >    There is a Yorkshire term pompey for prison or house of
>> > > > correction.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >DanG
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > > > > > > -----------------------
>> > > > > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > >
>> > > > > > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > > > > > > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > At 6/29/2012 05:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >Couldn't the reference to the lantern "playing 'dodge Pompey'"
>> > > > simply
>> > > > > > be a
>> > > > > > > > >way of saying the lantern wouldn't work when needed?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > I suppose so, but aren't we still at a loss as to why "Pompey"
>> > and
>> > > > > > > > whether there is a relationship to Portsmouth?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Joel
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >Several of the references do seem to imply avoiding danger
>> > > > instead of
>> > > > > > > > work,
>> > > > > > > > >and they are older.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >DanG
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson <
>> > Berson at att.net>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > > > > > > > > -----------------------
>> > > > > > > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <
>> > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > > > > > > > > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > So a sense related to ships signaling precedes "avoiding
>> > work"?
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Portsmouth was certainly a significant British naval base
>> > (and
>> > > > > > > > > > commercial ship port) in the 18th and 19th centuries.
>> >  Finding
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > passage in would be important.  A lantern had a shutter
>> > > > (perhaps
>> > > > > > also
>> > > > > > > > > > called a "screen"?; see 1838 quote below).  Would they be
>> > > > "dodged",
>> > > > > > > > > > moved to reveal or shut off the beam, in order to signal?
>> >  Did
>> > > > > > "dodge
>> > > > > > > > > > Pompey" mean something like "avoid Portsmouth", for some
>> > > > reason or
>> > > > > > > > > > purpose, by manipulating a lantern?  ("dodge" sense 1 --
>> > "a. To
>> > > > > > move
>> > > > > > > > > > to and fro, or backwards and forwards ..." [of a person],
>> > > > 1704-;
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > sense 6, "To move (a thing) to and fro, or up and down
>> > ...",
>> > > > 1820-,
>> > > > > > > > > > close to the earliest "dodge Pompey" quotations below.)
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Joel
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > At 6/27/2012 07:46 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > >I was attempting again to find how Portsmouth, England
>> > got the
>> > > > > > > > > > >nickname Pompey (OED has it from 1899), and so far, failed
>> > > > again.
>> > > > > > > > > > >There are many proposals. Anyway, here are some
>> > antedatings
>> > > > (OED
>> > > > > > has
>> > > > > > > > > > >1929) for dodging Pompey (one of which, merely
>> > coincidentally,
>> > > > > > > > > > >involves the US ship Portsmouth); dodging Pompey may have
>> > > > played
>> > > > > > > > > > >some role in the Portsmouth nickname origin--or not.
>> > (Green's,
>> > > > > > > > > > >unchecked.) They may not all fit OED's dodge v 13 sense
>> > (a) to
>> > > > > > evade
>> > > > > > > > > > >work (Naval slang).
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1836  Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt.
>> > > > Chamier
>> > > > > > RN.
>> > > > > > > > > > >v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
>> > > > > > > > > > >[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no
>> > > > use--the
>> > > > > > > > > > >lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were
>> > out
>> > > > > > before
>> > > > > > > > > > >the signal could be made.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F.
>> > Chamier,
>> > > > RN.
>> > > > > > p.145
>> > > > > > > > > > col. 1
>> > > > > > > > > > >Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when
>> > danger
>> > > > was
>> > > > > > near?
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1841 Tom Bowling: A tale of the sea. v.3 (HT)
>> > > > > > > > > > >Smith was a regular dodge Pompey
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1845-1847, published 1958. The Cruise of the Portsmouth,
>> > > > > > 1845-1847:
>> > > > > > > > > > >A Sailor's View of the Naval Conquest of California.
>> > Joseph T.
>> > > > > > > > > > >Downey, USN; ed. Howard Lamar. Yale UP. (paper)
>> > > > > > > > > > >I have found out that dodging Pompey is a good thing,
>> > dodging
>> > > > is
>> > > > > > my
>> > > > > > > > > > >trade, and I am as good a dodger as any he [sic] in
>> > > > California,
>> > > > > > just
>> > > > > > > > > > >keep your eyes on their Big Guns, and when you see the
>> > flash,
>> > > > fall
>> > > > > > > > > > >down where you stand, and don't rose again till you hear
>> > the
>> > > > Ball
>> > > > > > > > > > >whistle over your heads;....
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1847 Cruise of the Graceful; or, The Robbers of Carracas,
>> > by
>> > > > > > Captain
>> > > > > > > > > > >Barnacle, U.S.N. (C.M. Newell?) p. 5, col. 1 (HT)
>> > > > > > > > > > >....I never seed so much _dodging pompey_ in all my
>> > sailoring
>> > > > as I
>> > > > > > > > > > >have these two weeks past.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1880 Captain Tom Drake; or, England's hearts of oak. W. L.
>> > > > Emmett.
>> > > > > > > > > > >p. 7   col. 1
>> > > > > > > > > > >"I've put a question to you, now I wants the answer; now
>> > > > then, out
>> > > > > > > > > > >with it, none of your tack and half tack, and dodging
>> > Pompey
>> > > > round
>> > > > > > > > > > >the long boat, let's have it...."
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >1899 The log of a sea-waif... Frank T. Bullen, p.292 (GB)
>> > > > > > > > > > >They killed time in a variety of ways, making believe to
>> > do
>> > > > some
>> > > > > > > > > > >work, but principally occupied in "dodging Pompey."
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >Stephen Goranson
>> > > > > > > > > > >www.duke.edu/~goranson <http://www.duke.edu/%7Egoranson>
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society -
>> > http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society -
>> > http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org



More information about the Ads-l mailing list