Fwd: dodge Pompey

[Dan Goncharoff]

TRUNCATED TO MEET MESSAGE LENGTH RESTRICTIONS

We agree, except for one point. I have an idea for why dodging cannonballs
might be like dodging Pompey -- that French cannonballs flew high, like
rocks from a volcano. Yes, it's unsubstantiated.

Garson, one of the derivations I posted for Portsmouth = Pompey is a
captured French prison ship Le Pompee used in Portsmouth as a prison ship.
It might also feed the use of Pompey to refer to "the authorities" or the
penalties they mete out, and dodging Pompey to mean dodging the authorities
(who make you work) but that is pure speculation.

DanG



On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 7/2/2012 02:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >Let me start by acknowledging that I don't know the answer.
>
> Certainly I don't.
>
> >We know that the phrase eventually meant avoiding work, but we don't when
> >that began.
> >
> >We also have in the original cites a clear description of ducking
> >cannonballs referred to as dodging Pompey.
>
> True.  But (and see below), this is avoiding danger, not avoiding work.
>
> >Most of the other cites are, to
> >me, too vague, including the lanterns.
>
> Vague, agreed -- But there must be something behind Stephen's two
> earliest quotations:
>
> >1836  Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt. Chamier RN.
> >v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
> >[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no use--the
> >lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were out before
> >the signal could be made.
>
> Would lanterns have been avoiding (dodging) work?  Metaphorically, by
> not working properly?  I suppose perhaps.
>
> >1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F. Chamier, RN. p.145
> col. 1
> >Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when danger was near?
>
> Since this is on-line (GBooks); perhaps additional context may
> suggest something (but not much to me!).  Although it's avoiding
> danger, not work.
>
> Finally, we seem to have no idea why "dodging" became associated with
> "Pompey".  "Dodge" = "evade" or = "move to and fro"?  (The latter is
> why I wondered about naval signaling lanterns and the port.)
>
> Joel
>
> >I don't see any of the other cites
> >supporting the notion that dodging Pompey refers to moving lanterns,
> unless
> >there is a good reason for British sailors to avoid the lights of a
> British
> >port. Thus my question. Where's the circular reasoning?
> >
> >DanG
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > At 7/2/2012 02:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > >I see only one clear reference to lanterns, and that refers to
> lanterns
> > > >that don't work, so they dodge Pompey,
> > > >
> > > >Who would be trying to dodge the lights of Portsmouth? An impressed
> sailor
> > > >trying to escape by sea?
> > >
> > > Dan, isn't the above circular reasoning -- it assumes the origin of
> > > the "dodge" in "dodging Pompey" is "trying to avoid something", and
> > > then concludes that "dodging Pompey" is "trying to escape Portsmouth"?
> > >
> > > Rather, what I am wondering is whether "dodging Pompey" originally
> > > had something to do with "dodging" lanterns at Portsmouth, and then
> > > got transferred or generalized to "avoiding work".  See Stephen
> > > Goranson's 1836 find -- might it refer to moving (something) to and
> > > fro, another sense of "dodge", and a failure thereof (the dodged
> > > lanterns at Portsmouth didn't work)?
> > >
> > > Or -- why "dodging Pompey" (dodging Portsmouth?) in particular,
> > > rather than, say "dodging [avoiding] swabbing", or "bilge-pumping",
> > > or some other unpleasant naval task?
> > >
> > > Perhaps Pompey was simply some legendary, notoriously harsh bosun?
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > >
> > > >DanG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > Subject:      Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > While we're supposing, I still prefer something to do with
> signaling
> > > > > lanterns at Portsmouth port.
> > > > > Joel
> > > > >
> > > > > At 7/2/2012 01:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > >There may be two distinct connections.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Several of the cites use "dodging Pompey" in the context of
> avoiding
> > > > > >something coming from enemy boats -- cannon balls? A form of Greek
> > > fire?
> > > > > >The French tended to fire high, so their cannon fire would look
> more
> > > like
> > > > > >the rocks propelled by a volcano. (The Dutch, and the English
> > > themselves,
> > > > > >fired low, into the body of the ships.) Could dodging Pompey
> > > originally
> > > > > >mean dodging enemy cannon balls fired high?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Dodging Pompey" in the context of work might then be a later
> > > development,
> > > > > >influenced by the earlier phrase, or the French prison ship, or
> the
> > > > > >nickname for Portsmouth, or all of the above.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >And then there's Measure for Measure...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >DanG
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org