"There's an old saying..."

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Tue Sep 4 23:48:01 UTC 2012


Sorry. I don't follow what you're saying at all.

JL

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > In that case, I'll go further. Honore' was applying his Murphy-style "old
> > saying" not to military planning but to civic plans for dealing with
> > Hurricane Isaac. The form of its expression (i.e., its words and
> > tone) makes it far more broadly applicable than Moltke's
> > observation specifying "contact with the enemy."
> >
>
> Why does it matter that the context for the saying has changed?
>
> >
> > I suspect that if Honore' had run his "saying" past Moltke as an
> acceptable
> > paraphrase of the German's pronouncement (which Clausewitz had alluded to
> > far earlier as the "friction" of battle, which begins to erode plans
> > immediately), Moltke would have cocked an eybrow and said:
> >
> >  "You are a ferry egzentrik fellow."
> >
>
> I doubt Moltke spoke English. French, maybe. No one asks whether "The more
> things change, the more they stay the same" would be acceptable to someone
> who doesn't speak English. Sounds preposterous, actually.
>
> Whether the saying was intended as a translation of Moltke, or was a saying
> that came out of the world of planning, was seen by military types as a
> pithy version of Moltke, and eventually adopted by the military as an "old
> saying", it has been around as a saying for at least 30 years. People who
> plan for a living, including military planners, would have seen it as a
> "saying" their entire working life.
>
> DanG
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Sounds very prescriptivist, especially when the source is in a foreign
> > > language.
> > >
> > > That said, Google has a version of the phrase from 1982:
> > > "As one executive remarked it seems that 'No *plan survives contact*
> with
> > > reality'. "
> > > The Realities of Planning, by Bernard Taylor and others
> > >
> > > I leave it to the experts to determine whether 30 years is old enough
> to
> > be
> > > old.
> > >
> > > DanG
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > Because a "saying," by definition, means the words themselves
> (perhaps
> > > > with inconsequential variations), not the general  idea.
> > > >
> > > > Moreover, the pithy new version wryly and hyperbolically asserts that
> > the
> > > > _whole plan_ (any plan) is just the *first* thing that will go wrong.
> > > That
> > > > implies that everything you do will gang agley, and not only aft. (Is
> > > > Burns's line really the same "saying" as both Moltke's and Gen.
> > Honore's
> > > on
> > > > CNN? Of course not, though the sentiments are just as clearly
> related.)
> > > Nor
> > > > was the quasi-malign Murphy's Law view of reality that lies behind
> > > > Honore's formulation was not widely endorsed by nineteenth-century
> > > > intellectuals.
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > ------
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Garson!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to ask if it is surprising that a shorthand version of
> > > > > something originally written in a foreign language 132 years ago
> and
> > > > > still studied at West Point has been described as an old saying in
> > the
> > > > > Army?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sep 1, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Garson O'Toole <
> > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan Goncharoff wrote
> > > > > >> Didn't Moltke, der Grosse Schweiger, say this (in German)?
> > > > > >> "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Yale Book of Quotations provides the following translation:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > > Helmuth von Moltke
> > > > > > Prussian military leader, 1800=EF=BF=BD1891
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No plan of operations reaches with any certainty beyond the first
> > > > > > encounter with the enemy=EF=BF=BDs main force.
> > > > > > Kriegsgeschichtliche Einzelschriften (1880)
> > > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is a cite showing a translation into English in 1891 of an
> > > > > > extended version of the quotation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cite: 1891 January, Journal of the Royal United Service
> Institution
> > > > > > (Great Britain) Volume 35, Number 155, Cruizer-War and Coast
> > Defence
> > > > > > by Commander H. Garbett, [Translated by  permission from the
> > > > > > "Mittheilungen aus dem Gebiete des Seewesens"] Start Page 47,
> Quote
> > > > > > Page 47, Published by Harrison and Sons, London. (Google Books
> full
> > > > > > view)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DbsJMAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22Moltke+very%22#v=
> > > > =3Dsnippet&<
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DbsJMAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22Moltke+very%22#v=%0A=3Dsnippet&
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > > Field-Marshal Moltke very rightly lays down in the volume issued
> by
> > > > > > the General Staff on the Franco-German War, that no plan of
> > > operations
> > > > > > can reach with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the
> > > > > > enemy's main force, and that only uninitiated civilians believe
> > they
> > > > > > can see in the progress of a campaign the prearranged execution
> of
> > an
> > > > > > original plan, all the details of which have been previously
> > settled
> > > > > > and carried out to the end.
> > > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Garson
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Dan Goncharoff <
> > thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > >> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > >> Subject:      Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > ------
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Didn't Moltke, der Grosse Schweiger, say this (in German)?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> DanG
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >>> -----------------------
> > > > > >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > > > > >>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > >>> Subject:      "There's an old saying..."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > > ------
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Maybe everyone already knows this but me (Charlie and Garson in
> > > > > >>> particular), but people seem to say "There's an old saying...."
> > > when
> > > > > what
> > > > > >>> they mean is something like, "I heard somebody say this, or
> > > something
> > > > > very
> > > > > >>> much like it, on one occasion, and it stuck in my mind because
> > it's
> > > > s=
> > > > o
> > > > > >>> clever or succinct."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Seeming exmple from CNN the other day: "There's an old saying
> in
> > > the
> > > > > Army:
> > > > > >>> 'The first thing to go bad is the plan.'"
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sound like a genuine proverb, right?  However, a Google search
> > > yields
> > > > > >>> nothing. Of course, I may have overlooked some slight variant
> > that
> > > > > would
> > > > > >>> get 10,000 hits, but the principle still seems sound: for most
> > > > people=
> > > > ,
> > > > > it
> > > > > >>> only takes one utterance plus a good memory to turn a catchy
> > > > > generalization
> > > > > >>> an "old saying."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> JL
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> --
> > > > > >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> > the
> > > > > truth."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --=20
> > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth."
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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