G-ful "gnu"
Damien Hall
damien.hall at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK
Sun Jan 27 20:23:27 UTC 2013
In British English, "gnu" is usually g-ful - /g at nu:/ - so Flanders & Swann were using their native pronunciation. I'd never heard it any other way until I went to live in the States!
Damien
--
Damien Hall
Newcastle University (UK / Royaume-Uni)
Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France'
Projet de recherche: 'Vers un Nouvel Atlas Linguistique de la France'
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Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 2013 to 26 Jan 2013 (#2013-27)
There are 11 messages totalling 373 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Dolsot
2. English Words Connected with Being Drunk Published 1930-1940s
3. "hokey cokey" (4)
4. G-ful "gnu" (2)
5. ILL, the verb (3)
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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:35:32 -0500
From: Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dolsot
A local Korean restaurant that's been open at least since 1986 has been
serving Dolsot bibimbap as long as I can remember. The problem, of
course, is if the usage has been integrated. The 1990s menus certainly
identified that "stone bowl" as "dolsot" in the description of the dish,
but, again, the issue is incorporation vs. mere foreign word reference.
And tracking down those menus would be impossible--the restaurant burnt
down twice, resurfacing in a slightly new idiom each time.
A note on full incorporation: I've looked up a number of French culinary
terms that are undoubtedly incorporated today (e.g., names of various
sauces, such as bechamel or veloute). Aside from spellings with and
without diacritics, there seems to be some confusion in the old OED
articles for these terms. First, most of them can be easily antedated by
an average of 30 years. Second, even these late examples often produce
unincorporated menu items as legitimate examples--something most of us
would not dream of doing with more contemporary borrowings. Still, when
it comes to native food-related items, or other symbols of domesticity,
perhaps relaxing the full-incorporation standard is not the worst idea.
VS-)
On 1/25/2013 2:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> Dolsot (also spelled "dol sot") is in the Seattle Times today =
> (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020208625_sarah25xml.html). =
> It's the "stone" bowl that bibimbap is sometimes served in. The dolsot =
> gives the rice that semi-crunchy texture like half-burned macaroni in a =
> casserole.=20
>
> Dolsot isn't in Wiktionary, the OED or the AHD. Wikipedia gives the =
> Korean spelling as =EB=8F=8C=EC=86=A5 under =
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibimbap.
>
> The earliest I see the word in Google Books is 1992 =
> (http://books.google.com/books?id=3D6xy0AAAAIAAJ&q=3D%22dolsot%22&dq=3D%22=
> dolsot%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DgtoCUZ7wOIaM0QH1voCoBQ&ved=3D0CEcQ6AEwAw) =
> as part of the name of a restaurant. Surely the term would have been on =
> their menus as well as the menus of other restaurants by that date.
>
> The next appearance on Google Books is 1996 in the phrase "dolsot bi bim =
> bap" =
> (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DyLyuG2RqlooC&q=3D%22dolsot%22&dq=3D%22=
> dolsot%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DCNsCUZn-DYrV0gHp9oCgBg&ved=3D0CDkQ6AEwAA).
>
> The Internet has two pages from 1994:
>
> =
> http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/11/garden/a-treasure-hunt-for-korean-foods.=
> html?pagewanted=3D2 (dolsot)
> =
> http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1994-09-15/restaurants/second-helpings/full=
> / (dol sot)
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> Seattle, WA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:40:51 +0000
From: Damien Hall <damien.hall at NEWCASTLE.AC.UK>
Subject: English Words Connected with Being Drunk Published 1930-1940s
Following is a post from Szymon (Simon) Adam Wo¼ny
szymon.a.wozny at gmail.com
which he has asked me to post here on his behalf. I'm certain that some members of this list will know about this kind of thing! He isn't a member of the list, so it would be great if you would send any reflections you have directly to him, as well as replying to the list if you think your answer would be interesting to members here too. Apologies for cross-postings: I originally saw this message on the LINGUIST List.
All the best
Damien
======================================
Hello fellow linguists.
I was hoping for your help with finding any written data considering the english vocabulary associated with being drunk. A dictionary of it would really be a godsend. I'd like the data to be published in 1930s or 1940s, but anything from the first half of XXth century will do.
It is of crucial importance for my thesis.
Thank you in advance,
Simon
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 13:31:55 -0500
From: George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
Subject: "hokey cokey"
>From an article in the NYTimes' sports pages, January 23, 2013, section B,
p. 17; otherwise,
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/sports/olympics/london-games-over-future-=
of-olympic-stadium-remains-uncertain.html,
on the difficulties that have arisen in turning the stadium built for the
London Olympics into a profitable general sports venue:
Much of the problem stems from what appears to have been poor initial
decisions. When the stadium was built, the post-Games plan called for it to
be drastically reduced in size =97 it is designed roughly along the lines
of a layer cake, with removable tiers =97 then used as a 25,000-seat track
and field site. But track and field competitions rarely draw more than
several thousand spectators at a time. =93There was an element of hokey cok=
ey
in that first proposition,=94 Biggs said. So the organizers came up with a
new idea: find a soccer team to move in.
Jonathon Green's Dictionary of Slang has an entry for "hokey cokey",
meaning "karaoke", supported with one citation, from 1998. He adds a
comment "note also the trad. Cockney dance "The Hokey Cokey"".
I'd explain the "hokey cokey" in the Times with reference to "hokum" and
"cokey" (cocaine) -- that is, the first proposition was a combination of
fakery and delusion.
But I defer to others.
GAT
--=20
George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 13:37:42 -0500
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "hokey cokey"
On Jan 26, 2013, at 1:31 PM, George Thompson wrote:
> From an article in the NYTimes' sports pages, January 23, 2013, section B,
> p. 17; otherwise,
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/sports/olympics/london-games-over-future-of-olympic-stadium-remains-uncertain.html,
> on the difficulties that have arisen in turning the stadium built for the
> London Olympics into a profitable general sports venue:
> Much of the problem stems from what appears to have been poor initial
> decisions. When the stadium was built, the post-Games plan called for it to
> be drastically reduced in size — it is designed roughly along the lines
> of a layer cake, with removable tiers — then used as a 25,000-seat track
> and field site. But track and field competitions rarely draw more than
> several thousand spectators at a time. “There was an element of hokey cokey
> in that first proposition,” Biggs said. So the organizers came up with a
> new idea: find a soccer team to move in.
>
> Jonathon Green's Dictionary of Slang has an entry for "hokey cokey",
> meaning "karaoke", supported with one citation, from 1998. He adds a
> comment "note also the trad. Cockney dance "The Hokey Cokey"".
>
> I'd explain the "hokey cokey" in the Times with reference to "hokum" and
> "cokey" (cocaine) -- that is, the first proposition was a combination of
> fakery and delusion.
> But I defer to others.
I expect "hocus-pocus" (for the meaning) and/or "hokey-pokey" (for the sound) might be involved, although I have no speculation for the /p/ > /k/ part of it. Maybe assimilation from the /k/ of the second syllable(s)? Hic-haec-hoc > Hic-haec-coke?
LH
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:27:54 -0500
From: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: "hokey cokey"
I don't know, but the dance "hokey cokey" over there is identical to the "hokey pokey" here. It's compulsory at wedding receptions. Never seen it in this sense.
Paul Johnston
On Jan 26, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "hokey cokey"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jan 26, 2013, at 1:31 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>
>> From an article in the NYTimes' sports pages, January 23, 2013, section B,
>> p. 17; otherwise,
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/sports/olympics/london-games-over-future-of-olympic-stadium-remains-uncertain.html,
>> on the difficulties that have arisen in turning the stadium built for the
>> London Olympics into a profitable general sports venue:
>> Much of the problem stems from what appears to have been poor initial
>> decisions. When the stadium was built, the post-Games plan called for it to
>> be drastically reduced in size ˜ it is designed roughly along the lines
>> of a layer cake, with removable tiers ˜ then used as a 25,000-seat track
>> and field site. But track and field competitions rarely draw more than
>> several thousand spectators at a time. „There was an element of hokey cokey
>> in that first proposition,‰ Biggs said. So the organizers came up with a
>> new idea: find a soccer team to move in.
>>
>> Jonathon Green's Dictionary of Slang has an entry for "hokey cokey",
>> meaning "karaoke", supported with one citation, from 1998. He adds a
>> comment "note also the trad. Cockney dance "The Hokey Cokey"".
>>
>> I'd explain the "hokey cokey" in the Times with reference to "hokum" and
>> "cokey" (cocaine) -- that is, the first proposition was a combination of
>> fakery and delusion.
>> But I defer to others.
>
>
> I expect "hocus-pocus" (for the meaning) and/or "hokey-pokey" (for the sound) might be involved, although I have no speculation for the /p/ > /k/ part of it. Maybe assimilation from the /k/ of the second syllable(s)? Hic-haec-hoc > Hic-haec-coke?
>
> LH
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 18:09:36 -0500
From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: "hokey cokey"
At 1/26/2013 01:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>I expect "hocus-pocus" (for the meaning) and/or "hokey-pokey" (for
>the sound) might be involved, although I have no speculation for the
>/p/ > /k/ part of it. Maybe assimilation from the /k/ of the second
>syllable(s)? Hic-haec-hoc > Hic-haec-coke?
I too think of "hocus-pocus" rather than cocaine. But also, doesn't
"hockey puck" have an association with shit, and particularly
bullshit? (Researching this would overwhelm me, but I find early on
"The first Hockey puck ever used was a frozen piece of cow
poop.") So "hokey cokey" as "fakery, delusion" might have arisen
from a combining and alteration of "hocus-pocus" and "hockey puck"?
Joel
P.S. Following on from POTUS and FLOTUS, are there also HOCUS and POCUS?
JSB
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:55:46 -0800
From: Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: G-ful "gnu"
About halfway through today's broadcast of "Radio Lab" =
(http://www.radiolab.org/2010/oct/15/) is a g-ful pronunciation of =
"gnu," referring to the animal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU says =
that "GNU" is g-ful). I looked at my phone shortly afterward and it was =
1:31, so it should have occurred within five minutes before the halfway =
mark. It was in the discussion about Wile E. Coyote.
I believe the speaker was over 60, based on the vague recollection I =
have of the timeframe involved. That segment is also available at =
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/oct/15/singled-out/.
Benjamin Barrett
Seattle, WA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 21:47:55 -0500
From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: G-ful "gnu"
At 1/26/2013 06:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>About halfway through today's broadcast of "Radio Lab"
>(http://www.radiolab.org/2010/oct/15/) is a g-ful pronunciation of "gnu,"
>referring to the animal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU says that
>"GNU" is g-ful). I looked at my phone shortly afterward and it was
>1:31, so it should have occurred within five minutes before the
>halfway mark. It was in the discussion about Wile E. Coyote.
Of course if you want a g-lee-ful pronunciation of gnu, hear Flanders
and Swann. There's also a ringtone for your clock ... I mean phone,
at e.g.
http://www.justsomelyrics.com/1653356/Flanders-And-Swann-The-Gnu-Song-Lyrics
Joel
>I believe the speaker was over 60, based on the vague recollection I
>have of the timeframe involved. That segment is also available at
>http://www.radiolab.org/2010/oct/15/singled-out/.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 23:33:55 -0500
From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
Subject: ILL, the verb
This must be old, but a first glance tells me it will be difficult to
tease out from various unrelated instances. Including being mistaken
for "fill it (in/out)". Not found under OED's "ill, v.", not surprisingly.
"You'll have to ILL it: You can't get a copy, I've tried."
Email message, today.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 20:38:19 -0800
From: Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: ILL, the verb
I'd never heard of this, as far as I know, but Googling on "have to ill it" gets a lot of hits.
Benjamin Barrett
Seattle, WA
On Jan 26, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
> This must be old, but a first glance tells me it will be difficult to
> tease out from various unrelated instances. Including being mistaken
> for "fill it (in/out)". Not found under OED's "ill, v.", not surprisingly.
>
> "You'll have to ILL it: You can't get a copy, I've tried."
>
> Email message, today.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 23:52:54 -0500
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ILL, the verb
On Jan 26, 2013, at 11:38 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
> I'd never heard of this, as far as I know, but Googling on "have to ill it" gets a lot of hits.
>
> Benjamin Barrett
> Seattle, WA
>
> On Jan 26, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
>
>> This must be old, but a first glance tells me it will be difficult to
>> tease out from various unrelated instances. Including being mistaken
>> for "fill it (in/out)". Not found under OED's "ill, v.", not surprisingly.
>>
>> "You'll have to ILL it: You can't get a copy, I've tried."
>>
and in fact it expands to mean the opposite of what it stands for, I'm guessing: ILL = "Inter-Library Loan", but here meaning "Borrow via an ILL request"
LH
------------------------------
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