the early days of "baloney"

Fri May 3 23:39:23 UTC 2013

At 5/3/2013 06:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Exx. like this are maddening because it's hard not to read later meanings
>into them, even if they weren't intended.
>
>In this case, though, the story seems pointless if "boloney" is meant
>  literally. What's more, in that case the liquor-seeker would have been
>more likely to have muttered something about "a pound o' bologna," the
>words used by the shopkeeper.
>
>If, on the other hand, "a lot of baloney" was already a familiar idiom, the
>point would be its singular appropriateness in this case.
>
>"Nonsense" or "foolishness" in general may be a better interpretation here
>than the narrower "hogwash," since it seems to refer to the entire
>disappointing situation.

If we're talking about:
>>This Times' cross word puzzles has got me very much boloney and I'm
>>even trying to pick 'em out of the linoleum squares on the kitchen floor.

Then isn't it more "confusion" than "nonsense, foolishness"?

Joel

>My grandfather used to say "What a lot of
>baloney!" fairly often, not always specifically in reference to speech or
>writing (in contrast to how I think of "hogwash").
>
>So I'd say there's little reason to credit Conway with introducing the term.
>
>JL
>
>
>On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Ben Zimmer
><bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu>wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: the early days of "baloney"
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > JL, what do you think of the Jan. 23, 1922 cite from the Evening
> > World? Would you say it antedates the 'hogwash' meaning and takes away
> > the coinage credit from Jack Conway? Direct link:
> >
> > http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030193/1922-01-23/ed-1/seq-17/
> >
> > For the sake of completeness, here's a cite for "boloney" that doesn't
> > seem to fit any of the previously attested senses -- something like
> > 'bewildered, befuddled'?
> >
> > Seattle Daily Times, 11 Oct. 1924 , p. 1/1
> > "Today's Tides in Elliott Bay, Piloted by Captain Bob"
> > This Times' cross word puzzles has got me very much boloney and I'm
> > even trying to pick 'em out of the linoleum squares on the kitchen
> > floor.
> > Never mind the chessmen, Pauline, bring me the checkerboard.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > >
> > > Nice work, B & G.
> > >
> > > While it is true that Witwer applied the term "baloney" to third-rate
> > > fighters as early as 1920, I think it would be a mistake to assume that
> > the
> > > word was ever used so exclusively, particularly when Baron von Munchausen
> > > is called a "baloney" just two years later.  Nor am I aware that the word
> > > ever meant "liar" specifically. I certainly never encountered it in that
> > > sense, and it would be interesting if further exx. could be found.
> > >
> > > "Baloney" was, rather, a vaguely dismissive term for clumsy, ignorant,
> > > cloddish individuals.
> > >
> > > I suggest that the new meaning 'hogwash' came about from the
> > dismissiveness
> > > of Witwer's sense (which he may or may not have invented and which
> > appeared
> > > in _Collier's_, one of the nation's leading mass-circulation weeklies)
> > and
> > > the familiarity of "blarney," a word that was very common in the
> > journalism
> > > of that era and which, even in the '50s, was used - in my experience,
> > > anyway - more often in speech than it is today.
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:24 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote:
> > >
> > >> Great article, Ben. You found some wonderful early citations for
> > boloney.
> > >>
> > >> The Language Log post and Ben's article referenced the fun 1926 saying
> > >> about slicing "bolognie". The discovery of this citation was announced
> > >> on this very list back in 2010. The citation was later added to
> > >> Barry's fine webpage and the seminal reference work The Dictionary of
> > >> Modern Proverbs.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;JwjOSg;201008081944080400B
> > >>
> > >> Here is some additional text from the 1926 citation.
> > >>
> > >> [ref] 1926 May 9, The Sun, "No Matter How Thin You Slice It": Gab Of
> > >> Collegiate Papas And Self And Self-Starting Flappers Is Always
> > >> "Bolognie" Anyhow And In Sort Of Code by Katherine Scarborough, Page
> > >> MS1, Baltimore, Maryland. (ProQuest)[/ref]
> > >>
> > >> [Begin excerpt]
> > >> "No matter how thin you slice it." Which, as every flapper knows, is
> > >> merely bologna (pronounced "bolognie") served in the grand manner.
> > >>
> > >> It is a subtle, trenchant and convincing expression which the young
> > >> person with one earring uses to inform her collegiate papa that his
> > >> best line is sound and fury, signifying nothing.
> > >>
> > >> For "bolognie" is to the slang of the moment what applesauce was to
> > >> the vocabularies of yesteryear.
> > >> [End excerpt
> > >>
> > >> My data file from 2010 has a cite that might help illustrate the
> > >> semantic transition. In 1920 and 1921 baloney was used to label an
> > >> oafish boxer as Ben notes. In the following example "big baloney" is
> > >> used to label another type of person: a liar.
> > >>
> > >> [ref] 1922 October, The Mentor, Volume 23, Number 12, The Gopher Boys
> > >> by M.S.H., Start Page 23, Quote Page 23, Edited and printed by inmates
> > >> of the Massachusetts State Prison at Charlestown. (Google Books full
> > >> view)[/ref]
> > >>
> > >> http://books.google.com/books?id=FIRIAAAAYAAJ&q=baloney#v=snippet&
> > >>
> > >> [Begin excerpt]
> > >> They get me cuckoo, with their tales of junk; which ain't truth, but
> > >> just colossal bunk! Old Munchausen copped the Liar's prize, but he was
> > >> a big baloney, and I can open your eyes!
> > >> [End excerpt]
> > >>
> > >> Regarding the introductory sentence of Ben's excellent column: The
> > >> article at Inside Higher Ed stated that Professor Bass was supportive
> > >> of the administration position and critical of some fellow faculty, I
> > >> think. The term "bologna" (with the odd spelling) was used by Bass to
> > >> label the stance or rationale of some faculty and not the
> > >> administration.
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:37 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > My new Word Routes column is on how "baloney" came to mean "nonsense"
> > >> > in the 1920s -- including some freshly discovered examples from
> > >> > newspaper articles and comic strips:
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/how-baloney-got-phony/
> >
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> >
>
>
>
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>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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