"jew" as adjective and compound nouns vs. adj. + n.?

Wed May 15 02:14:50 UTC 2013

At 5/14/2013 02:42 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>On May 14, 2013, at 12:33 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>
> > Is "Jew butcher" a compound
>
>Yes
> > -- "a butcher of Jews"?? -
>
>no
>
>There's no reason to assume that the meaning of a compound will be
>transparent.

I don't make any such assumption.  I know the specific meaning of the
various C1.a and C1.b compounds of "Jew, n." -- or I learn them from
the OED.  The C1.a compounds to me are all adj. + noun -- I could
replace "Jew" with its corresponding adjective "Jewish" and have a
two-word thing that was good English -- grammatical and semantically
the same.  The C1.b compounds to me are something else -- in all of
them if I replaced "Jew" with "Jewish" I would get something
semantically confusing.  E.g., "Jewish hatred" -- is that Jews'
hatred of something, or somebody's hatred of Jews?

And I come back to the OED's "General attrib. OR as ADJ."  Emphasis added.

>"Olive oil" is oil of olives, "baby oil" isn't oil of babies, or
>compare "alligator shoes" vs "horseshoes".  A "monkey man" is a man
>who is (also) a monkey, but a "child psychologist" isn't a
>psychologist who is also a child.  Judith Levi, Pam Downing, and
>others have provided non-exhaustive classifications of compounds by
>meaning, with such categories as (from Downing):
>
>            Whole-part    (duck
> foot)                            Place              (Eastern Oregon meal)
>            Half-half        (giraffe-cow)
> Source           (vulture shit)
>            Part-whole     (pendulum-clock)                 Product
>          (honey glands)
>            Composition  (stone
> furniture)                   User               (flea wheelbarrow)
>            Comparison   (pumpkin
> bus)                      Purpose         (hedge hatchet)
>            Time              (summer
> dust)                      Occupation    (coffee man)
>
>No reason "Jew lawyer" wouldn't be an example of the monkey-man or,
>better, nurse-midwife, kind rather than a hedge-clipper
>kind.  Notice that the "hedge-clipper" or "duck slaughterer"
>relation seems distinct from all of Downing's categories; as noted,
>the list is non-exhaustive.  Is "nurse" an adjective in
>"nurse-midwife"?  Or "child" in the unlikely but possible
>interpretation of "child psychiatrist"?  This is why I think the
>grammatical criteria for adjectival vs. nominal status are more
>reliable than meaning-based ones.  And I'm a semanticist.

I don't care about such classifications of compounds by meaning
(especially if they're non-exhaustive!), I only care about each
individual compound.  Given its meaning, does it act like adj. + noun?

Joel

>Incidentally, I think that's why it's natural to take "Jew lawyer"
>to be racist and/or offensive; it plays off the function of nouns as
>categorizers/pigeon-holers and thus ideally suited for slurs and
>epithets, as we've discussed in past threads:
>
>I'm not a Jew, I'm Jewish.
>He's not a deserter, he deserted.
>She lost, but that doesn't make her a loser.
>Don't call them diabetics, they're persons with diabetes.
>etc. etc.  (discussed by Bolinger in _Language--The Loaded Weapon_
>and others since, including in our archives)
>
>LH
>
> > - or an adj. +
> > noun -- "a Jewish butcher"?  (Compare "Jew-drowning" under C2, which
> > I do see as a compound -- it can't be "Jewish drowning".)  Similarly
> > for "Jew pedlar", and probably others.  The OED seems either to
> > concede or be uncertain -- "C1. General attrib. *or as adj.* That is
> > a Jew; *Jewish*."  (Emphasis added.)
> >
> > Is there a case for separation of the C1.a compounds, for all of
> > which it seems that "Jew" acts like an adjective and could be
> > replaced by "Jewish", from the C1.b. compounds, where that is not the
> > case?  E.g., a "Jew bill" (in C1.b) is not "a Jewish bill", but
> > rather "a bill 'Of or relating to Jews.' "
> >
> > But if Larry is right, how then would one make the OED more
> > user-friendly?  If sophisticated dictionary users like myself and
> > George don't think to look for adjectival uses of nouns under (the
> > late-appearing) "Compounds", -- and especially when a "Quick search"
> > doesn't turn up any entries with "adj." characterizing them, just
> > "n." and "v." -- what about the ordinary yahoo?
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > At 5/14/2013 11:52 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >> I would defend the label.  These are indeed, I would argue, nominal
> >> compounds rather than adjective + noun phrases.  "Jew" in such cases
> >> doesn't pass the diagnostics for adjective-hood:
> >>
> >> That lawyer seems {Jewish/*Jew}.
> >> Despite Brendan's proselytizing, Moises remained {Jewish/*Jew}.
> >> It's very kosher/Jewish/*Jew
> >>
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> LH
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 14, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >>
> >> > George, look way down under "Jew, n." for "Compounds" -- C1 is
> >> > "General attrib. or as adj."  I've missed this disguised and low (on
> >> > the page) artifice of the OED before, for this and other nouns.  I
> >> > think the heading in such cases should be "n. and adj.".
> >> >
> >> > Joel
> >> >
> >> > At 5/14/2013 10:37 AM, George Thompson wrote:
> >> >> Seems strange, but such is the case, if the on-line OED doesn't
> >> mislead me.
> >> >>
> >> >>            JEW BEEF. -- The subscribers offer their services
> to merchants
> >> >> who are in the habit of trading to the West Indies, that in order to
> >> >> complete a well assorted cargo for those markets, it will
> prove to be an
> >> >> acquisition to apply to them for the above article; they are in 5 or 10
> >> >> gallon kegs.  ***  Levy & Lyons, 26, White-hall street. N. B.  Regular
> >> >> certificates will be given.
> >> >>            Mercantile Advertiser, November 1, 1804, p. 2, col. 2
> >> >>
> >> >> HDAS and Jonathon Green's dictionary have "jew" as a disparaging
> >> adjective,
> >> >> which isn't the case here.  Their examples are generally in
> the form of "a
> >> >> Jew xyz" which translates into "a Jew who is an xyz" -- a Jew lawyer,
> >> >> perhaps.  Here, it meant "kosher", and the ad was placed by a
> Jewish firm.
> >> >>
> >> >> GAT
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> George A. Thompson
> >> >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> >> >> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then
> >> >>
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