big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'

Tue Nov 12 20:20:25 UTC 2013

YBQ probably should include the Kaiser's 1900 exhortation to his troops:

"When you meet the enemy,... you will give no pardon and take no prisoners.
...As the Huns a thousand years ago under King Etzel [i.e., Attila] made a
name for themselves that has lasted mightily in memory, so may the name
'Germany' be known in China so that no Chinese will ever again even dare to
look askance at a German."

JL

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I believe there was a substantial Hungarian contingent in the Habsburg
> Army. It would have been distinctively dressed, too. I wouldn't dismiss
> it's influence.
>
> On Friday, January 25, 2013, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> <javascript:;>
> > >
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <javascript:;>>
> > Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > You're right about the 1802 date, Dave. The anthology I was looking at
> gave
> > it wrongly, possibly because Campbell had been in Bavaria in 1800.
> Several
> > months before Hohenlinden, he'd witnessed an extended skirmish at
> > Regensburg from the roof of the monastery.
> >
> > The scenes were "so horrible to my memory that I study to banish them."
> >
> > By the time Hohenlinden was fought, Campbell was in Altona.
> >
> > Note for pedants: Campbell's letters refer to "Hungarians" among the
> > Habsburg troops, so one might argue that his "Huns" actually "refers to"
> > Hungarians. Possibly "Hungarian" helped prompt the association, but the
> > Habsburg army was overwhelmingly Bavarian and Austrian, and it's the
> entire
> > army he's talking about in the poem.
> >
> > And no, there's little doubt that the 20th C. application of "Huns" owes
> > almost everything to the Kaiser's pep talk.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> <javascript:;>
> > >
> > > Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET <javascript:;>>
> > > Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Neat find!
> > >
> > > Although, the proximate inspiration for the twentieth century usage is
> > > still
> > > probably Kaiser Wilhelm II's speech of 27 July 1900. (I would bet that
> > > Kipling knew Campbell's poem, and it was in the back of his mind when
> he
> > > popularized the term--although Kipling was not the first to use the
> term
> > in
> > > the wake of the Kaiser's speech. Several British newspapers picked up
> on
> > > "Hun," as the OED demonstrates.)
> > >
> > > Although the publication date of the poem is 1802. The battle of
> > > Hohenlinden
> > > was fought in 1800.
> > >
> > > http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poems/hohenlinden
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> <javascript:;>]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of
> > > Jonathan Lighter
> > > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 5:12 PM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <javascript:;>
> > > Subject: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
> > >
> > > OED, like HDAS,  dates this name for militaristic Germans to the years
> > > after
> > > 1900. It may have been popularized by Kipling.
> > >
> > > Surprisingly, however, both HDAS and OED missed an earlier, albeit
> > poetic,
> > > appearance in one of the best-known poems of the nineteenth century,
> > Thomas
> > > Campbell's "Hohenlinden" (1800):
> > >
> > > 'Tis morn; but scarce yon level sun
> > > Can pierce the war-clouds, rolling dun,
> > > Where furious Frank and fiery Hun
> > >        Shout in their sulphurous canopy.
> > >
> > > Hohenlinden was fought near Munich in December, 1800, between the
> > imperial
> > > forces of Napoleon and those of the Holy Roman Emperor Franz I, of the
> > > House
> > > of Habsburg. Franz's army was composed of Austrians and Bavarians.
> > >
> > > JL
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
> --
> DanG
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org