From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 00:46:08 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:46:08 -0400 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: <201407282257.s6SK62V5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: USA Today has this: "According to a Seattle Police Department report , more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census ." http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ Randy On Jul 28, 2014 6:57 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "[Name], played by _African-American_ actor Isaac C. Singleton, Jr., and > [Name], played by the _black_ English actor, Treva Etienne." > > - Henry Louis Gates, Jr. > > I'd have expected "African-English" or "African-British," if the prefix, > _African-_, had any real, independent use other than as a sad, depressing > calque on "Irish-American" et sim. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 01:19:16 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:19:16 -0400 Subject: Facebook: "get out of _hawk_" In-Reply-To: <201407311934.s6VJOaoF028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We had a thread related to this back in July 2002 when I posted on a new business that had opened in Muncie, IN, the Muncie Hawk Shop. This is a cot/caught merger area, and my first assumption was that the spelling was due to that merger. However, someone else on the list checked further and found that the shop owner had intentionally named it as he had. Apparently he'd had a felony conviction and so was not bondable and couldn't get a pawnbroker's license. So he named the place "Hawk Shop" instead of "Hock Shop." The shop closed up about a year later and, the last I knew, had relocated forty-five miles NW to Marion, but he kept the name "Hawk Shop." Herb On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Facebook: "get out of _hawk_" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Writer is from "Portland." Thanks to Fb's weird implementation of > "privacy," I'd have to friend this guy to find out where Portland is. > > Since I distinguish between "cot" and "caught," I didn't immediately > understand WTF he was trying to say. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 01:20:29 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:20:29 -0700 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe just variation rather than confusion, like "Barack Obama said today... The President went on to argue…" (Assuming that the sets denoted by "African-Americans" and "Blacks" are identical; otherwise, it is pretty confusing without further clarification of whether the latter category includes immigrants from Vancouver, say, and/or the former includes white South Africans, both of which I strongly doubt.) LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:46 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > USA Today has this: > > "According to a Seattle Police Department report > , > more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up > 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census > ." > > http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ > > Randy > On Jul 28, 2014 6:57 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "[Name], played by _African-American_ actor Isaac C. Singleton, Jr., and >> [Name], played by the _black_ English actor, Treva Etienne." >> >> - Henry Louis Gates, Jr. >> >> I'd have expected "African-English" or "African-British," if the prefix, >> _African-_, had any real, independent use other than as a sad, depressing >> calque on "Irish-American" et sim. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 01:21:35 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:21:35 -0700 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it up. Very ecological. LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > As defined by Consumer Reports [edited]: > > A container, often a glass jug, that holds 32 to 64 fluid ounces > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 01:28:45 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:28:45 -0400 Subject: one in the same Message-ID: "Debt is merely the sum total of all previous deficits. Except for when they are incurred, they are one in the same." >From a comment section of a Salon story at http://www.salon.com/2014/07/31/cnn_anchor_shuts_down_fox_climate_trolls_in_one_brilliant_tweet/?source=newsletter ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 01:52:53 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:52:53 -0400 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: <3FB75E4B-7766-46EF-8479-4171DCF9FC67@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 7/31/2014 09:20 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Maybe just variation rather than confusion, like >"Barack Obama said today... The President went >on to argue " (Assuming that the sets denoted >by "African-Americans" and "Blacks" are >identical; otherwise, it is pretty confusing >without further clarification of whether the >latter category includes immigrants from >Vancouver, say, and/or the former includes white >South Africans, both of which I strongly doubt.) Or are the official names of the "racial" classifications n the Seattle citations and the U.S. census different? (Possibly, but probably not an excuse for the writer.) Joel >LH > > >On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:46 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > > > USA Today has this: > > > > "According to a Seattle Police Department report > > > , > > more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up > > 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census > > ." > > > > > http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ > > > > Randy ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 02:08:22 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:08:22 -0700 Subject: one in the same In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A few more from the past: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/448/one-in-the-same/ LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > "Debt is merely the sum total of all previous deficits. Except for when > they are incurred, they are one in the same." > > From a comment section of a Salon story at > http://www.salon.com/2014/07/31/cnn_anchor_shuts_down_fox_climate_trolls_in_one_brilliant_tweet/?source=newsletter > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 02:23:19 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:23:19 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010121.s6VLmdQp028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = > Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = > up. Very ecological. > Yep. That's what CR is on about. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 02:38:39 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:38:39 -0400 Subject: "by the each" again Message-ID: A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from California due to the possibility they were contaminated with Listeria monocytogenes. The posted notice at the checkout counter said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the each)." (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the each but in "4LB Boxes.") Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by humans. Although I suppose there might be macros within the computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the "by the ..." text. The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be more widely understood than the former. In any case, using both phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label advertising price might have. If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 02:57:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:57:17 -0400 Subject: Subject-line of a political e-mail Message-ID: "Did you hear?" Those of a certain age may recall a popular song, from back in the day, with the title, "Have You Heard?" "Language keeps on changin', when it oughta be samin'," as Nancy Sinatra, Jr., didn't put it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Aug 1 03:01:48 2014 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:01:48 -0500 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign of growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local tavern in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with a lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the Growler" On 7/31/2014 9:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = >> Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = >> up. Very ecological. >> > Yep. That's what CR is on about. > > -- FAR BETTER TO BURN OUT, THAN FADE AWAY. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 03:44:55 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:44:55 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" Message-ID: Shouldn't that be, "with Frances and *I*"? :-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 03:51:45 2014 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:51:45 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408010345.s7136unR028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Shouldn't that be, > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 06:56:00 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:56:00 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whence the … LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "with Frances and me" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Shouldn't that be, >> >> "with Frances and *I*"? :-( >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 06:59:30 2014 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 02:59:30 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408010656.s716u6qx026470@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: yes, I understood that after my initial response -- just had not seen it and wasn't familiar with it! On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 2:56 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Whence the =85 > > LH > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > > > No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray = > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: "with Frances and me" > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> Shouldn't that be, > >>=20 > >> "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > >>=20 > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to > >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Aug 1 13:05:15 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:05:15 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010301.s6VLmdj9028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the explication of 'growler'. Without it I would never have understood the offer that came in this morning from LivingSocial Deals: "Entry to Growler Gallop Ten-Mile Race DETROIT, MI Like Oreo's and milk, peanut butter and jelly - running and beer just go better together. Trivium Racing is proud to bring you a scenic, fun tune-up race for all of your fall marathons and half marathons. Come on out to Atwater Brewery on September 14th and tackle either the 10 mile race or the 5K fun run distance. Come across the line and you will be greeted with a finishers mug, two free fill ups, live music and amazing prizes!" Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "paul johnson" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:01:48 PM > Subject: Re: "Growler" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paul johnson > Subject: Re: "Growler" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign > of > growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local > tavern > in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with > a > lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was > probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the > Growler" > On 7/31/2014 9:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn > > > > wrote: > > > >> They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in > >> enclaves like = > >> Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they > >> fill it = > >> up. Very ecological. > >> > > Yep. That's what CR is on about. > > > > > -- > FAR BETTER TO BURN OUT, THAN FADE AWAY. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Fri Aug 1 14:07:26 2014 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 10:07:26 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/1/14, 12:00 AM, ADS-L automatic digest system wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:01:48 -0500 > From: paul johnson > Subject: Re: "Growler" > > Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign of > growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local tavern > in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with a > lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was > probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the Growler" Yep: there's a scene like that in Frank Norris's _McTeague_. (Yep, that's what stuck in my little undergrad mind from that novel in my American Realism & Naturalism course. What a concept: Getting a bucket of beer!) ---Amy West ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 14:58:19 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 22:58:19 +0800 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408011407.s71Dnqo3028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Brewery ... mmmh. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 15:07:04 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:07:04 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less frequently, " and I") when the same speaker always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: She came with Tom and I She came with me She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. She told me to meet her at the bookstore. Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? Joel At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: >No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > >On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Shouldn't that be, > > > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 15:15:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:15:12 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <338040.8590.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2014, at 8:07 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less frequently, " and I") when the same speaker always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: > > She came with Tom and I > She came with me > She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. > She told me to meet her at the bookstore. > > Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? > > Joel Arnold is the one to respond to this. He (and his students) have a lot to say on the topic. Not sure there's anything entirely authoritative, but it's very much worth reading. (There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his student Thomas Grano from 2006, "“Me and her” meets “he and I”: Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns", which may or may not have been published, and there's even a theory by a generative linguist named Nicholas Sobin that treats the "correct" forms as a grammatical virus.) LH > > At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: >> No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: "with Frances and me" >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Shouldn't that be, >> > >> > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( >> > >> > -- >> > -Wilson >> > ----- >> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > -Mark Twain >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 15:27:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:27:44 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it available in electronic form? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Fri Aug 1 15:55:07 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:55:07 +0100 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011527.s71FReDj024468@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: http://ling.umd.edu/~tgrano/uht.pdf Robin Hamilton __________________________________ At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it available in electronic form? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Aug 1 16:14:52 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:14:52 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011527.s71FReDj024468@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2014, at 8:27 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >> student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >> Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... > > Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it > available in electronic form? in several places, including here: http://www.stanford.edu/~zwicky/Grano.finalthesis.pdf i have posted so often on ths topic that i'm reluctant to rehash things. to get a small sample, do a google search on "nominative coordinate objects" arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 16:39:07 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:39:07 +0000 Subject: How toll (rhymes with "doll") are you Message-ID: The nurse asked "How tall are you. But she said ~taal not ~taul. I had her say it twice before I got it. She said; ~~Hou taaler yue?~~ in a soft quick voice. Which makes me think - does the tongue go lower when we say "ah" or " awe"? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 17:59:21 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:59:21 +0800 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011625.s71GPvD8015877@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JB: <> WB: You can't go wrong with Mr Tweedley! He tells you and I what's what, at 04:02. You're quite welcome, I'm sure. << The home is a classroom. Keep in mind the tiny tots. >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Fri Aug 1 18:03:53 2014 From: 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Jeff Prucher) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:03:53 -0700 Subject: "by the each" again In-Reply-To: <201408010238.s6VLmdfh028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There are tens of thousands of items on Amazon listed as being "by the each": https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:amazon.com+%22by+the+each%22. (You can do the same with amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk, with similar quantities of results.) GBooks is a bit hard to sort out, but searching for "sold by the each" finds a number of hits of interest, mostly dealing with wholesaling or retailing, and covering the whole of the 20th century: https://www.google.com/search?q="sold+by+the+each"&tbm=bks. Note how many of these include some or all of the phrase in scare quotes.   So I think we can put the "computer error" hypothesis to bed, as well as my regionalism hypothesis. My best guess now is that this is wholesaler/retailer jargon (hence the scare quotes, perhaps), which is fairly widespread across industries. Dictionaries (DARE excepted) have likely missed or omitted this either because it is seen as jargon or because it appears outside the sources used by the dictionaries (e.g. trade publications and in-store labels and shelf-talkers). Jeff Prucher   On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender:      American Dialect Society >Poster:      "Joel S. Berson" >Subject:      "by the each" again >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from >California due to the possibility they were contaminated with >Listeria monocytogenes.  The posted notice at the checkout counter >said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the >each)."  (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the >each but in "4LB Boxes.") > >Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: >http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 > >Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- > >The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer >program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings >on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web >site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by >humans.  Although I suppose there might be macros within the >computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the >"by the ..." text. > >The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the >phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be >more widely understood than the former.  In any case, using both >phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label >advertising price might have. > >If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via >its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 19:02:35 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED Message-ID: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED. Urban Dictionary has "8. To act or speak in a rough or an insensitive manner." And "9. to be rude or cruel to somebody." Although the examples of each are of the adjective. "How come you guys are harshing me for liking 'Star Trek: The Next Generation?" "It's a _guilty pleasure!_ Everybody has one!" Lincoln Peirce, "Big Nate", 2014 Aug.1. Being slangy, exact meanings in quotations are elusive. From GBooks, searching for "harshed" and "harshing", "Preview available, finds some that seem similar, from the early 1990s on. If anything is said in the ADS-L archives, I didn't find it. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 1 19:08:33 2014 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:08:33 -0400 Subject: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED In-Reply-To: <896017.19092.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 03:02:35PM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED. HDAS and GDoS have examples of _harsh (on)_ in relevant senses from the late 1980s, in college slang sources. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 19:14:26 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:14:26 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011507.s71DnqR7028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's also CGEL p463. If you like, I can scan the page and send it to you. Randy On Aug 1, 2014 11:07 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less > frequently, " and I") when the same speaker > always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: > > She came with Tom and I > She came with me > She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. > She told me to meet her at the bookstore. > > Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? > > Joel > > At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > >No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > > > > >On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Shouldn't that be, > > > > > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > > > ----- > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Fri Aug 1 21:39:25 2014 From: 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Jeff Prucher) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:39:25 -0700 Subject: "by the each" again In-Reply-To: <201408010238.s6VLmdfh028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My last response came through kind of garbled. Trying again: There are tens of thousands of items on Amazon listed as being "by the each": https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:amazon.com+%22by+the+each%22. (You can do the same with amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk, with similar quantities of results.) GBooks is a bit hard to sort out, but searching for "sold by the each" finds a number of hits of interest, mostly dealing with wholesaling or retailing, and covering the whole of the 20th century: https://www.google.com/search?q="sold+by+the+each"&tbm=bks. Note how many of these include some or all of the phrase in scare quotes.   So I think we can put the "computer error" hypothesis to bed, as well as my regionalism hypothesis. My best guess now is that this is wholesaler/retailer jargon (hence the scare quotes, perhaps), which is fairly widespread across industries. Dictionaries (DARE excepted) have likely missed or omitted this either because it is seen as jargon or because it appears outside the sources used by the dictionaries (e.g. trade publications and in-store labels and shelf-talkers). Jeff Prucher > On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender:      American Dialect Society > Poster:      "Joel S. Berson" > Subject:      "by the each" again > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from > California due to the possibility they were contaminated with > Listeria monocytogenes.  The posted notice at the checkout counter > said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the > each)."  (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the > each but in "4LB Boxes.") > > Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: > http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 > > Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- > > The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer > program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings > on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web > site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by > humans.  Although I suppose there might be macros within the > computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the > "by the ..." text. > > The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the > phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be > more widely understood than the former.  In any case, using both > phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label > advertising price might have. > > If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via > its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 12:39:30 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 08:39:30 -0400 Subject: "When you _victim-blame_..." In-Reply-To: <201407312024.s6VJOa8V028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > My impression is that this kind of structure has definitely moved away > from, IMO, a joke and may be headed to "unremarkable, perhaps even to > "ordinary." Or the novelty may wear off too quickly and it'll die out. > > Youneverknow. Arnold covered this back-formation (along with "shut-shame") here: http://arnoldzwicky.org/2013/04/15/synthetic-compounds-and-back-formed-verbs-rape/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 12:46:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 08:46:12 -0400 Subject: "When you _victim-blame_..." In-Reply-To: <201408021239.s72A947f028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The syntax is useful because it saves space, time, and breath. It's easier to write or say "victim blame" than "blame the victim." Moreover, it puts the action verb in the stronger clause-final position. Like to "early vote," the trend is becoming broader than classical "back-formation," as Arnold has undoubtedly observed. JL On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: "When you _victim-blame_..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > My impression is that this kind of structure has definitely moved away > > from, IMO, a joke and may be headed to "unremarkable, perhaps even to > > "ordinary." Or the novelty may wear off too quickly and it'll die out. > > > > Youneverknow. > > Arnold covered this back-formation (along with "shut-shame") here: > > > http://arnoldzwicky.org/2013/04/15/synthetic-compounds-and-back-formed-verbs-rape/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 13:01:13 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 09:01:13 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" Message-ID: Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I mentioned here many years ago. I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. Nothing. OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known stanza? (There once were many.) If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 13:43:24 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 09:43:24 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' Message-ID: Context suggests that everybody knows this term but me: "5 Hacks That'll Improve Your Life": https://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/5-hacks-thatll-improve-life-232544326.html?vp=1 JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 2 17:25:33 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021301.s72A94A5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend his knee. My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? -- Kate On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. > Nothing. > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 18:23:02 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:23:02 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021725.s72A94cL028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Kate. I have seen more than 500 verses, but not that one! Is there any more to it than that? JL On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock < spanbocks at verizon.net> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock > Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = > able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = > his knee. > > My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = > fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = > starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = > was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? > > -- > Kate > > On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header = > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > > = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >=20 > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > > mentioned here many years ago. > >=20 > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = > that. > > Nothing. > >=20 > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = > that > > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > >=20 > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > >=20 > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = > big > > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = > press. > > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = > best-known > > stanza? (There once were many.) > >=20 > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 2 18:37:18 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't remember any verses, although I associate it with humor and satire. But inky dinky parlez-vous? Joel At 8/2/2014 09:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I >mentioned here many years ago. > >I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to >having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. >Nothing. > >OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular >associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that >the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > >The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex >kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > >I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big >deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. >Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known >stanza? (There once were many.) > >If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 2 18:59:45 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021823.s72A94g5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just remember something like "Oh, Mademoiselle, will you marry me? I can't go down on a busted knee. Hinky dinky etc." On Aug 2, 2014, at 11:23 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you, Kate. > > I have seen more than 500 verses, but not that one! Is there any more to > it than that? > > JL > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock < > spanbocks at verizon.net> wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock >> Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = >> able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = >> his knee. >> >> My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = >> fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = >> starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = >> was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? >> >> -- >> Kate >> >> On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header = >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" >>> = >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ----- >>> =20 >>> Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I >>> mentioned here many years ago. >>> =20 >>> I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to >>> having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = >> that. >>> Nothing. >>> =20 >>> OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular >>> associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = >> that >>> the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) >>> =20 >>> The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex >>> kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. >>> =20 >>> I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = >> big >>> deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = >> press. >>> Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = >> best-known >>> stanza? (There once were many.) >>> =20 >>> If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. >>> =20 >>> JL >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = >> truth." >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Aug 2 19:31:48 2014 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <30691_1406984502_s72D1e4H014105_201408021301.s72A94A5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know of the song, but not much of the words. Most of my knowledge stems from Sinclair Lewis' _It Can't Happen Here_; the U.S. government, preparing the people for a war of conquest with Mexico, put out a new version, IIRC entitled "Sen~orit' from Nayarit", and rhyming "she smiled all over her khaki pan" with "what a man!". FWIW. Jim Parish On 8/2/2014 8:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. > Nothing. > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 20:56:11 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 16:56:11 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' In-Reply-To: <201408021343.s72A94DV028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Context suggests that everybody knows this term but me: > > "5 Hacks That'll Improve Your Life": > > https://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/5-hacks-thatll-improve-life-232544326.html?vp=1 This use of "hack" seems to be a short form of "life hack". Wikipedians attempted to trace the term "life hack" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_hacking A 2004 talk by Danny O'Brien was an important nexus for popularization according to Wikipedia. Looking in the archives I see a similar response from me in 2012. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;cace17c6.1211D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wh5mith at BELLSOUTH.NET Sat Aug 2 21:01:40 2014 From: wh5mith at BELLSOUTH.NET (wh5mith) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:01:40 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021301.s72A949v028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first Marine went over the top, parlez-vous. The second Marine went over the top, parlez-vous. The third Marine went over the top, He thought he heard a nickle drop, Hinkey, dinkey, parlez-vous. She still wasn't kissed. Bill Smith   A brilliant casuist disproved every false generalization. He is justly known lately. Moreover, no pompous quibbler really said that useful verities were xenophobic yet zealous. On Saturday, August 2, 2014 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:      American Dialect Society Poster:      Jonathan Lighter Subject:      Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I mentioned here many years ago. I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. Nothing. OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex kitten.  Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. Has it any resonance left?  Does anyone here know more than the best-known stanza? (There once were many.) If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Sat Aug 2 21:22:01 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:22:01 -0300 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021725.s72A94cP028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I was a little kid in the 50's. We sang this both as "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" and "The first marine went over the wall, parlez-vous" and so forth. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 2:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" oster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = his knee. My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? -- Kate On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >=20 > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. >=20 > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = that. > Nothing. >=20 > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) >=20 > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. >=20 > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) >=20 > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. >=20 > JL >=20 > --=20 > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = truth." >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 22:42:56 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:42:56 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010132.s711Wf9B014364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've posted on this subject several months ago as debates rage in craft-beer communities over the names of different containers, e.g., the name of the quart growler. Generally, any screwtop or poptop reusable glass container for beer that is larger than 750ml is referred to as growler. In Florida, legal growlers are 32 oz and 1 gal. The half-gallon size is illegal. Several companies tried to use thick-walled 2L soda bottles and refer to them as plastic growlers. VS-) On 7/31/2014 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = > Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = > up. Very ecological. > > LH > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> As defined by Consumer Reports [edited]: >> =20 >> A container, often a glass jug, that holds 32 to 64 fluid ounces >> =20 >> --=20 >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 2 23:12:13 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 23:12:13 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" Message-ID: byte (OED 1964) 1962 Werner Buchholz _Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch_ 40 _Byte_ denotes a group of bits used to encode a character, or the number of bits transmitted in parallel to and from input-output units. ... (The term is coined from _bite_, but respelled to avoid accidental mutation to _bit_.) Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 22:38:45 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:38:45 -0400 Subject: Google Books no longer sorting by "Custom range" of date? In-Reply-To: <201407302241.s6UJmYbJ028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: while I've been using the same link for years now, it no longer provides accurate information. Most hits returned with restricted range mostly gives titles outside that range, particularly recent browsable items, but also a lot of older items that also don't correspond in language. GB is still usable for initial search, but it's no longer the same tool that it was 3-4 years ago, which is why you don't see many items from me any more. Most of my old research is no longer verifiable. I have several files with partial links that can no longer be updated because GB is broken VS-) On 7/30/2014 6:41 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Joel, if you start your search at the following webpage you will be > able to specify a time range. Note that Google Books search engine > implementation has been defective for quite some time. So you will > experience false negative and false positive matches. But the GB > search engine is still enormously powerful and valuable. > > http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 3 03:44:10 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 23:44:10 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' In-Reply-To: <201408021343.s72A94DV028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hack A clip of "NEAT HACK: A clever technique"? HACK n. 4., in The Original Hacker's Dictionary [of MIT-AI, ca. 1988] http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 3 20:34:19 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 16:34:19 -0400 Subject: Phrase: saved you a click (clickbait spoilers) Message-ID: Title: Please Stop Saving Me A Click Sub-title: Here's an online behavior that’s worth reconsidering Author: Charlie Warzel BuzzFeed Staff Website: Buzzfeed Timestamp: Aug. 1, 2014, at 11:16 a.m. http://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/please-stop-saving-me-a-click [Begin excerpt] While the idea of "saving you a click" has been around for some time - one of the earliest instances on Twitter came in October 2009 - its recent surge in popularity can most likely be traced to the Twitter account of the same name. [End excerpt] Here is a twitter example of "saving you a click" in March 2009, but it is not really a clickbait spoiler. [Begin excerpt] Marie Macaisa ‏@shakespearecub What wine goes with bacon? @garyvee reviews http://tinyurl.com/dk2mxt (Shakespearians, saving you a click, that's not a ref to Sir Francis) 11:52 AM - 29 Mar 2009 [End excerpt] Here is a twitter example of a clickbait spoiler with the phrase "saved you a click" in October 2009: [Begin excerpt] Jeremy Borger ‏@jborger It's Avon Lake. Saved you a click - A local high school is under lockdown. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/21181983/detail.html (via @WEWS) 2:16 PM - 2 Oct 2009 [End excerpt] Here is a 2010 example: [Begin excerpt] vbspurs ‏@vbspurs RT @eonline: Which Celeb Is Rocking a Furry Tiara? http://bit.ly/9KpXqp [It's Dakota Fanning. There I saved you a click] 12:34 AM - 25 Feb 2010 [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 3 22:38:40 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 22:38:40 +0000 Subject: "Embiggen" Not in OED Message-ID: One of the great neologisms of our time seems to have escaped the attention of the OED and Merriam-Webster. I refer, of course, to the word "embiggen," seemingly introduced by the 1996 "Simpsons" episode entitled "Lisa the Iconoclast," which reveals that the Springfield town motto is "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." A Google search for "embiggen" turns up 755,000 hits; there would be more if inflected forms were also searched for. The OED should note, if it has not already, that "embiggen" is actually a 19th-century neologism: 1884 _Notes and Queries_ 16 Aug. 135 I believe it to be beyond the power of Prof. Skeat or any other scholar or grammarian to settle what substantive, or even adjective, shall be turned into a verb when the many-mouthed beast takes it into its head to make one. ... Cricket has its slang; football has its slang; and lawn tennis has its genteel slang. But fresh slang coming up destroys old slang, and it is this we must look to, and not to grammarians, to rid the dictionaries of the jargon that "neweth every day." Are there not, however, barbarous verbs in all languages? ... the people magnified them, to make great or _embiggen_, if we may invent an English parallel as ugly. After all, use is nearly everything. C. A. WARD. (This occurrence is not my own discovery, but is mentioned, for example, in Wikipedia.) Is it possible that one of the Harvard-educated "Simpsons" screenwriters was familiar with the esoteric 1884 discussion? How cromulent that would be. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 3 23:08:02 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 23:08:02 +0000 Subject: Another Interesting Thing About "Embiggen" Message-ID: Another interesting thing about "embiggen" is that it is an antonym of one of the great 18th-century neologisms, Thomas Jefferson's "belittle." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 6:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Embiggen" Not in OED One of the great neologisms of our time seems to have escaped the attention of the OED and Merriam-Webster. I refer, of course, to the word "embiggen," seemingly introduced by the 1996 "Simpsons" episode entitled "Lisa the Iconoclast," which reveals that the Springfield town motto is "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." A Google search for "embiggen" turns up 755,000 hits; there would be more if inflected forms were also searched for. The OED should note, if it has not already, that "embiggen" is actually a 19th-century neologism: 1884 _Notes and Queries_ 16 Aug. 135 I believe it to be beyond the power of Prof. Skeat or any other scholar or grammarian to settle what substantive, or even adjective, shall be turned into a verb when the many-mouthed beast takes it into its head to make one. ... Cricket has its slang; football has its slang; and lawn tennis has its genteel slang. But fresh slang coming up destroys old slang, and it is this we must look to, and not to grammarians, to rid the dictionaries of the jargon that "neweth every day." Are there not, however, barbarous verbs in all languages? ... the people magnified them, to make great or _embiggen_, if we may invent an English parallel as ugly. After all, use is nearly everything. C. A. WARD. (This occurrence is not my own discovery, but is mentioned, for example, in Wikipedia.) Is it possible that one of the Harvard-educated "Simpsons" screenwriters was familiar with the esoteric 1884 discussion? How cromulent that would be. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 4 00:40:15 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 00:40:15 +0000 Subject: A font for all languages - no tofu Message-ID: I wonder what to call what the web is doing to our emails - snafu? http://n.pr/1ops3Wv "Tofu" is what the pros call those tiny, empty rectangles that show up when a script isn't supported. This is where Google's new font family, "Noto," gets its name: "No Tofu." Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 5 01:06:03 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 01:06:03 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently published book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published by Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of material on the topic thus far. I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. McCammon, Blue World, p. 81, 1991." Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 5 01:48:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 21:48:17 -0400 Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" Message-ID: Sign carried by a homeless black man in Florence, South Carolina. Caps as in the original. What's of interest - to me, anyway - is that a speaker unable to distinguish "sing" from "sang," presumably because his dialect recognizes no such distinction, nevertheless uses "4" for "for," despite the fact that BE *does* distinguish between "4" [foU] and "for" [fO(r)] / [f^(r)] and, in the St. Louis BE of my lost youth, "for" falls together with "far," as expected. Like, I *still* trip over "4" in place of "for," in reading. But, I *never* confuse "sing" and "sang" in writing. A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? Youneverknow. [The classification of this comment is ;-). This comment is classified ;-).] -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 5 09:34:11 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:34:11 +0000 Subject: "Nocebo" = the opposite of a placebo Message-ID: A placebo effect tends to give a positive feeling about a new test issue, so a "nocebo" gives a negative effect on a test issue due to pre-existing feelings. http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-replication-2014-5 Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Tue Aug 5 11:26:11 2014 From: 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Michael Sheehan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:26:11 -0400 Subject: Domesticated slang Message-ID: Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that started out as slang but then became accepted as standard? Michael Sheehan theseniorcorner.weebly.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 6 02:47:39 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 02:47:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Hello" Message-ID: hello (OED 1827) 1826 _Norwich_ (Conn.) _Courier_ 18 Oct. 4 (America's Historical Newspapers) Hello, Jim! I'll tell you what: I've a sharp knife and feel as if I'd like to cut up something or other. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 6 23:22:37 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:22:37 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <201408062312.s76Jx2Ok001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) DanG On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: The age-old maxim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Or at least as old as the London Underground. > > ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter > who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as he > was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, men, > women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away from > the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next train to > arrive. Heart-warming. but ... > > The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old > maxim, 'watch the gap'." > > Well ... > > A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer > report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who > has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:24:29 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:24:29 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <807864.18270.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8/6/2014 07:12 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Or at least as old as the London Underground. Wikipedia claims the age-old maxim is younger than thee and me. "It was first introduced in 1969 on the London Underground in the United Kingdom." Joel >ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter >who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as >he was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, >men, women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away >from the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next >train to arrive. Heart-warming. but ... > >The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old >maxim, 'watch the gap'." > >Well ... > >A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer >report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who >has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 6 23:31:02 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:31:02 -0400 Subject: "Play me didgeridoo" Message-ID: The oldie, Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport, has the verse, Play me _didgeridoo_, Blue Play me _didgeridoo_ Having never heard the word before, I interpreted the verse as, Play me didgeri, do, Blue Play me didgeri, do the otiose "do" being not uncommon in non-North-American dialects of English, according to the media. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:33:51 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:33:51 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/6/2014 07:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >"Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a >passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) I didn't know that, and I grew up in NYC. Wikipedia tells me the LIRR was established in 1834, a bit before the London Underground (1863). I wonder when the LIRR started saying "Watch the gap". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:12:25 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim Message-ID: Or at least as old as the London Underground. ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as he was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, men, women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away from the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next train to arrive. Heart-warming. but ... The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old maxim, 'watch the gap'." Well ... A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 7 03:13:16 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 22:13:16 -0500 Subject: QUILTBAG Message-ID: This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender/Transsexual, Bisexual, Allied/Asexual, Gay/Genderqueer. It is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounceable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on the GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 7 11:27:31 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 04:27:31 -0700 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning Undecided Intersex Lesbian Transgender/Transsexual Bisexual Allied/Asexual Gay/Genderqueer. It is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounceable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on the GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag a 2011 handout on acronyms in this domain (including QUILTBAG): http://www.stanford.edu/~zwicky/SemFest12.pdf Categories and Labels: LGBPPTQQQEIOAAAF2/SGL ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Thu Aug 7 11:51:26 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 12:51:26 +0100 Subject: OED -- Problems with CRACKMANS and RUFFMANS In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: RUFFMANS as a cant term for a hedge is first recorded in Thomas Harman, _A Caveat for Common Cursitors_ (1567), while CRACKMANS is noted with the same meaning in S.R., _Martin Mark-all_ (1610). While the OED correctly begins the respective entries with these citations, the remainder of both entries contain problems. The OED cites one of three occurrences of CRACKMANS in _Martin Mark-all_, but omits one which is significant: Ruffmans, not the hedge or bushes as heretofore : but now the eauesing of houses or roofes: Cragmans is now vsed for the hedge. [E3v] Here, we have a variant spelling CRAGMANS (noted in GDoS but not the OED), and a meaning of RUFFMANS not included in the OED definition of RUFFMANS. The second citation in the OED, from Jonson's _Masque of the Gypsies_, is given with a publication date of 1640, and dated as "a1637" (since Jonson died in 1637). The masque was performed in 1621, and that date should be included. The third citation is from the _New Canting Dictionary_ of 1725. This is an extension of the definition in B.E., _New Dictionary of the Canting Crew_ (1699), where the definition of CRACKMANS is taken from Richard Head's _Canting Academy_ (1673), repeating Head's earlier instance of this in _The English Rogue_ (1665). Head in turn has as his source Thomas Dekker, _Lanthorne and Candlelight_ (originally published in 1608, but with CRACKMANS first appearing there in the expanded second _O per se O_ edition of 1612, and repeated in later editions of L&C). No overt notice of Dekker or Head then in the OED entry, but the final citation is: 1737 _Bacchus and Venus_ Canting Songs ix. Thou the Crackmans down did beat. The _Bacchus and Venus_ of 1737 is simply a reprint, with a new title page and date but identical font and pagination, of the _New Canting Dictionary_ of 1725, given in the previous OED citation. Further, the Canting Songs in the _New Canting Dictionary_ itself are taken from Richard Head, _The Courtier's Academy_ (1673), which in turn derives its texts from Thomas Dekker's _Lanthorne and Candlelight_. The poem in question is first printed in the 1616 edition of L&C: 6. When the Dark-mans haue been wet, thou the Crack-mans downe didst beate, For Glymmar, whilst a Quacking chete, or Tib ath’ Buttry was our meate. [P3v] At the least, the 1737 citation should be replaced by Thomas Dekker in 1616. When we turn to the OED entry on RUFFMANS, similar problems arise. Leaving aside the OED suggestion that there is a variant spelling, RUFFMAN (no final -s) for which the OED gives no evidence, and the omission of the 1610 meaning noted above, the first three citations are relatively uncontentious. The problems begin with the third citation: 1665 HEAD, _English Rogue_ -- Then did we creep, And plant in Ruffe-mans low. See Thomas Dekker, _O per se O_ (1612), O1v: When they did seeke, then did we creepe, / and plant in ruffe-mans low. 1725 _New Canting Dictionary_ -- While some are sent to break the _Ruffmans_, or Woods ... See Richard Head, _The Canting Academy_ (1673), p. 4, which the NCD reproduces word-for-word in the citation given by the OED. 1785 F. GROSE _Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue_ - I will not conceal ought I win ... Again, this is word-for-word from _The Canting Academy_ (p. 4 again), possibly via the _New Canting Dictionary_ which again reproduces Head in this instance. Thus the OED 1725 and 1785 citations both derive from a single locus in Head in 1673 which is not itself noted by the OED. The documentation of cant terms may be difficult, and there is a question of how much material is appropriate for a general dictionary such as the OED (GDoS obviously gives fuller documentation in this area, but exhibits similar problems when it comes to the reproduction of material taken by the cited source from an earlier text), but it helps to keep in mind the central line of cant documentation: Harman (1567) => Dekker (1608, and later) => Head (1665 and 1673) => B.E. (1699) => New Canting Dictionary (1725) => Grose (1785 and later). Robin Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 7 13:44:51 2014 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:44:51 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2U001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Mullins Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bill Mullins Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 7 14:38:30 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 10:38:30 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <000f01cfb245$c3dfb7e0$4b9f27a0$@com> Message-ID: Maybe because, when used rather than (as here) mentioned, "{You're/I'm/she's/he's} a QUILTBAG" sounds like an insult, albeit an obscure one. LH On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in > LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. > > It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Bill Mullins > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= > ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 7 14:55:01 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:55:01 +0300 Subject: 2008 normcore Message-ID: The OxfordWords blog says "onomast Nancy Friedman has unearthed an example of the word from 2005", but this isn't quite accurate. http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014/04/can-core-survive-normcore/ Nancy wrote: [Begin] Normcore had a pre-K-Hole existence, albeit an obscure and cultish one. According to an Urban Dictionary entry published in March 2009, “normcore” first appeared in the webcomic Templar, Arizona, which launched in May 2005. [End] Here's the UD definition: [Begin] A subculture based on conscious, artificial adoption of things that are in widespread use, proven to be acceptable, or otherwise inoffensive. Ultra-conformists. First featured as a fictional population in the webcomic Templar, Arizona, but normcores are totally real. [Begin example] Oh, shee-it! You just got gang signed by the worst of 'em! Y'see the slight forward tilt of the chin, and the causal "hey" with the silent H? That means he's NORMCORE. Dangerously regular. Dresses only in T-shirts and jeans, uses slang appropriated from other subcultures, but only 3 years after its first use, an' only after it's been used in a sitcom." [End example] by Skaught March 27, 2009 [End] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=normcore&defid=3836963 Paul McFedries wrote: [Begin] "The Urban Dictionary cite goes on to claim that normcore was "First featured as a fictional population in the webcomic Templar, Arizona." Based on that slim lead, I read the four years (!) of Templar, Arizona comics that appeared before March 27, 2009, but I didn't find any evidence of the word. ("Read" is, admittedly, too strong a word here. "Skimmed-because-hey-I-have-a-life" would be closer to the truth, so it's possible I missed it. If so, and you know which comic the word appears in, drop me a line" [End] http://www.wordspy.com/words/normcore.asp I've found the comic. Perhaps the reason Paul didn't find it in the main archives is because it wasn't by the the comic's regular author Charlie "Spike" Trotman but a one-off guest comic by Ryan Estrada. As part of his "Ryan Estrada Day" he drew 70 guest comics and posted them on Wednesday 17 September 2008. http://web.archive.org/web/20080921063143/http://www.ryanestrada.com/2008/09/20/comics/guest-strips/templar-az/ http://web.archive.org/web/20080918065238/http://www.webcomicsnation.com/spike/Templar/series.php?view=single&ID=126095 Here's the text, slightly different from the UD definition: [Begin] Oh, shee-yit! You just got gang signed by the worse of 'em! Y'see the slight tilt of his chin, and the casual "hey" with the silent H? That means he's NORMCORE. Dangerously regular. Dresses only in T-shirts an' jeans, uses slang appropriated from other sub cultures, but only 3 years after it's first use, an' only after it's been used in a sitcom. [End] Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 7 15:50:41 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:50:41 +0000 Subject: QUILTBAG (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE When I read it, the similarity to "douchebag" immediately popped into mind. I can't think of any word used to refer to people that ends in -bag that wouldn't run the risk of being perceived as pejorative (scumbag, "you old bag", dirtbag, windbag). Moneybags, maybe, is positive. See OED: Bag -- slang (orig. U.S.). A disparaging term for a woman; (originally) a sexually promiscuous woman; (later) an unattractive or elderly woman; = baggage n. 6. Quiltbag may carry too much baggage to gain traction. But, as Wilson says, Youneverknow. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Laurence Horn > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 9:39 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Maybe because, when used rather than (as here) mentioned, = > "{You're/I'm/she's/he's} a QUILTBAG" sounds like an insult, albeit an = > obscure one. > > LH > > On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > > > Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in > >LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. > >=20 > > It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On = > Behalf Of > > Bill Mullins > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: QUILTBAG > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Bill Mullins > > Subject: QUILTBAG > > = > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---= > -- > > --- > >=20 > > This is a new one on me: > > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=3D2C Undecided=3D2C Intersex=3D2C = > Lesbian=3D2C Tr=3D > > ansgender/Transsexual=3D2C Bisexual=3D2C Allied/Asexual=3D2C = > Gay/Genderqueer. It =3D > > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more = > pronounc=3D > > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions > > = > on th=3D > > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > > =3D > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 7 16:18:56 2014 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 12:18:56 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2U001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: QUILTBAG, while cute, is hardly more than a "stunt word" so far. Nexis = 5 articles. Google News = 1 article. And there are not 2 Q's as would be required for both _queer_ and _questioning_, 2 A's for _allied_ and _asexual_, and 2 G's for _gay_ and _genderqueer_. DKB -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Mullins Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bill Mullins Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 7 16:28:58 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 16:28:58 +0000 Subject: QUILTBAG (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <7c35fd40aa3649f8947e4c56a48691d8@UGUNHPTN.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I ran across it here: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2014/08/06/the-big-idea-alisa-krasnostein/ Newsbank has two articles using the word. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of David Barnhart > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > QUILTBAG, while cute, is hardly more than a "stunt word" so far. > > Nexis = 5 articles. > Google News = 1 article. > > And there are not 2 Q's as would be required for both _queer_ and > _questioning_, 2 A's for _allied_ and _asexual_, and 2 G's for _gay_ > and _genderqueer_. > > DKB > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Mullins > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C > Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C > Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than > GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of > the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Aug 7 16:36:52 2014 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I first encountered "QUILTBAG" in connection with a short-lived webcomic by that name, written by T Campbell (better known for "Penny and Aggie" and "The Guilded Age"). The comic ran for about four months in early 2012. Jim Parish On 8/6/2014 10:13 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= > ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 03:29:32 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 22:29:32 -0500 Subject: Tennessee Walking Horse Message-ID: OED has 1938 Baton Rouge LA _Advocate_ 22 Mar 1936 p 7B col 2[classified ad]"At Stud Handsome Allen No. 530103 Tennesee Walking Horse" Tennessee Walker -- OED has 1960_Dallas Morning News_ 26 Jan 1941 sec 2 p 9 col 2[classified ad]"Palomino stallion at stud. Golden Sandstorm sires five-gaited Palominos and Tennesee walkerby mares of same breeding; the last word in a golden stud." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 09:38:04 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 12:38:04 +0300 Subject: 2008 normcore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I asked Ryan Estrada if he remembers if he heard/saw "normcore" before using it in the comic, or was it his own idea. He replied: "I made it up for the comic, but that doesn’t mean I was first to do that portmanteau!" https://twitter.com/ryanestrada/status/497544010739638272 Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 15:02:49 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 18:02:49 +0300 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" Message-ID: byte (OED 1964) Fred Shapiro's 1962 is by Werner Buchholz writing about IBM's Project Stretch. Here's some 1956 memos by Buchholz. June 11, 1956, Werner Buchholz, THE LINK SYSTEM: [Begin] Figure 2 shows the Shift Matrix to be used to convert a 60-bit word, coming from Memory in parallel, into characters, or "bytes" we have called them, to be sent to the Adder serially. ... It is just as easy to use all six bits in alphanumeric work, or to handle bytes of only one bit for logical analysis, or to offset the bytes by any number of bits. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-07/102632284.pdf STRETCH MEMO NO. 40 (Buchholz, July 31, 1956) also mentions bytes of 6 bits. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632289.pdf And by STRETCH MEMO NO. 45 (Buchholz, September 19, 1956) bytes became 8-bit. [Begin] Input-Output Byte Size The maximum input-output byte size for serial operation will now be 8 bits, not counting any error detection and correction bits. Thus, the Exchange will operate on an 8-bit byte basis, and any input-output units with less than 8 bits per byte will leave the remaining bits blank. The resultant gaps can be edited out later by programming. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632292.pdf Here's a long list of IBM Strech documents. I've checked the earlier Buchholz ones, as he's credited with coining it, but there's a slight chance it may appear in other documents. Note some PDFs 404, so just google for IBM Stretch and the document name (e.g. "IBM Strech 102632284.pdf" without quotes) should bring a working link from the Computer History Museum). http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 8 15:03:03 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:03:03 +0000 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although there are a few such words - "jazz"comes immediately to mind – the percentage must be well under 1%. And even "jazz" is necessarily an outlier, because its passage from sign to standard English was accompanied by a change in meaning. Jazz words usually have standard English counterparts, and it must be unusual for the standard English term to be displaced by the slang term. John Baker > On Aug 5, 2014, at 7:27 AM, "Michael Sheehan" <000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> wrote: > > Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that started out as slang but then became accepted as standard? > > Michael Sheehan > theseniorcorner.weebly.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 18:25:50 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 14:25:50 -0400 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408051126.s75BBJZq001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A percentage is one way to represent a fraction of a whole. There are big problems with your question in that respect. If your whole is the total number of English words, then you need criteria for what counts as a word (and also for a slang word, and also for evidence that it has been accepted as standard). You're not even giving an example of a word that "started out as slang but then became accepted as standard". (John Baker guesses you might accept "jazz".) There is no clear, accepted way to count how many words there are in Standard English, the best you can hope for is to estimate to the nearest order of magnitude, which is likely going to be 10^5 (some examples along the lines of word lists that attempt to define Standard English are here: http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts-readme/ ). You'll need to decide what order of magnitude makes up the slang words in English that have become accepted as standard. This seems to me a bigger challenge. Do you have a list? Once you have a list, or can guess at how many there are, round to the nearest order of magnitude and then put that into your fraction. Since a fraction is another way to express division, you'll have to round in a special way: three or lower rounds down to one, and four or higher rounds up to ten. This is because 3*3=9 (in the 10^0, or "ones" order of magnitude), but 4*4=16 (in the 10^1, or "tens" order or magnitude). When we're multiplying or dividing ballpark numbers, we want the resulting order of magnitude to be close, and since multiplying by ten is the number that defines the next order of magnitude, and the square root of ten is between three and four, that's where we split the rounding. But maybe a better way to answer your question would be to ask you to put it in much clearer terms. :) Randy On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Michael Sheehan < 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Sheehan > Subject: Domesticated slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that = > started out as slang but then became accepted as standard?=20 > > Michael Sheehan > theseniorcorner.weebly.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog Music: http://www.metafilter.com/activity/56219/posts/music/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 8 18:34:39 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 18:34:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fantastic antedatings, Hugo! I see my role on ADS-L as casting out preliminary antedatings for Garson, Hugo, Stephen Goranson, and others to improve upon. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Hugo [hugovk at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 11:02 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Byte" byte (OED 1964) Fred Shapiro's 1962 is by Werner Buchholz writing about IBM's Project Stretch. Here's some 1956 memos by Buchholz. June 11, 1956, Werner Buchholz, THE LINK SYSTEM: [Begin] Figure 2 shows the Shift Matrix to be used to convert a 60-bit word, coming from Memory in parallel, into characters, or "bytes" we have called them, to be sent to the Adder serially. ... It is just as easy to use all six bits in alphanumeric work, or to handle bytes of only one bit for logical analysis, or to offset the bytes by any number of bits. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-07/102632284.pdf STRETCH MEMO NO. 40 (Buchholz, July 31, 1956) also mentions bytes of 6 bits. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632289.pdf And by STRETCH MEMO NO. 45 (Buchholz, September 19, 1956) bytes became 8-bit. [Begin] Input-Output Byte Size The maximum input-output byte size for serial operation will now be 8 bits, not counting any error detection and correction bits. Thus, the Exchange will operate on an 8-bit byte basis, and any input-output units with less than 8 bits per byte will leave the remaining bits blank. The resultant gaps can be edited out later by programming. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632292.pdf Here's a long list of IBM Strech documents. I've checked the earlier Buchholz ones, as he's credited with coining it, but there's a slight chance it may appear in other documents. Note some PDFs 404, so just google for IBM Stretch and the document name (e.g. "IBM Strech 102632284.pdf" without quotes) should bring a working link from the Computer History Museum). http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 19:13:23 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 03:13:23 +0800 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408081825.s78FIxU0001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ​WB: King Alfred would regard 100% of succeeding generations of English users as English abusers. Broadly speaking, every linguistic change can upset some one, who would classify it as the vulgar corruption of somebody up to no good, and put into a collection of proscribed words, phrases, constructions, or text. One man's slang is another person's hate-list. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Fri Aug 8 19:21:11 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 20:21:11 +0100 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408081825.s78FIxUE001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: << From: Randy Alexander You're not even giving an example of a word that "started out as slang but then became accepted as standard". (John Baker guesses you might accept "jazz".) >> Some possibilities ... CHEAT ROGUE FOIST DECOY (OK, it's arguable whether this did begin life as cant) TIP (becomes SE 'a gratuity') BOOZE (if this is now SE) SEEDY -- - down-at-heel Then there's SNAFFLE, which the OED implies is still 'dial. or slang', but I'd feel was now pretty much SE. OED Sense 1 is defined as "To steal, purloin", and has the first (of only three) cites in this sense from the _New Canting Dictionary_ (1725). This probably ought rather to be "Frisky Moll's Song" from the opera (?) _Harlequin Sheppard_ performed and published earlier the same year, which is where the editor of the NCD picked up the term (along with reprinting the Song). Actually, it appears earlier, along with the first occurrence of SEEDY, in "John Sheppard's Last Epistle", printed on 16 November 1724, the day Jack Sheppard was hanged. To be noted, the examples I've given above begin as criminal argot, which isn't quite the same as slang. IMHO. Robin Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Sat Aug 9 04:38:26 2014 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Baron, Dennis E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 04:38:26 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?=93Like=94_just_means=2C_=93Uh_huh=94?= Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: “Like” just means, “Uh huh” Like has a new meaning. The word used to mean ‘feel affection for,’ ‘take pleasure in,’ or ‘enjoy.’ Now, thanks to Facebook, like can also mean, “Yes, I read what you wrote,” or just a noncommital “uh huh.” Like was once a word that could be charged with emotion—as when Hamlet cruelly asks his mother to comment on the play that re-enacts the murder of his father: "Madam, how like you this play?" This gets Gertrude all upset. Now like can simply mean, “So, what else is new?” Or even just, “I clicked on this.” . . . Read the entire post on the Web of Language: http://bit.ly/weblan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:02:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:02:12 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408050106.s74LlTF8001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. JL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published > b= > y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of > materia= > l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:04:51 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:04:51 -0400 Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" In-Reply-To: <201408050148.s74LlTQa001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? Welcum 2 the future! JL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sign carried by a homeless black man in Florence, South Carolina. Caps as > in the original. > > What's of interest - to me, anyway - is that a speaker unable to > distinguish "sing" from "sang," presumably because his dialect recognizes > no such distinction, nevertheless uses "4" for "for," despite the fact that > BE *does* distinguish between "4" [foU] and "for" [fO(r)] / [f^(r)] and, in > the St. Louis BE of my lost youth, "for" falls together with "far," as > expected. > > Like, I *still* trip over "4" in place of "for," in reading. But, I *never* > confuse "sing" and "sang" in writing. > > A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? > > Youneverknow. > > [The classification of this comment is ;-). This comment is classified > ;-).] > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:06:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:06:15 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <201408062333.s76Jx2WU001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I never huyrd of it either. JL On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: The age-old maxim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2014 07:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > >"Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a > >passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) > > I didn't know that, and I grew up in NYC. > > Wikipedia tells me the LIRR was established in 1834, a bit before the > London Underground (1863). I wonder when the LIRR started saying > "Watch the gap". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 10 14:47:46 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 14:47:46 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Friend" (= Quaker) Message-ID: A website called "Quaker Historical Lexicon" gives the following antedating for "friend" (OED, 7.b., 1656): But the single word “Friends” appears just as early, as in the following sentence from a 1653 letter from Gervase Benson to George Fox and James Nayler, reproduced in A.R. Barclay’s Letters, &c of Early Friends (1841) p. 3: As for the Friends’ enlargement at Kendal, George Taylor, I hope, hath or will give you an account. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 15:34:58 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: Domesticating slang Message-ID: However one feels like defining "slang" (and nobody can stop you), John's estimate of "well under 1%" is about as close as you're going to get. If you're restricting "slang" to formal neologisms like "jazz" and "jeep" and "OK," you'll go way, way lower than that. Does "blog" count? Why or why not? King Alfred didn't even know the word "slang," and I doubt he'd judge the general usage of succeeding generations in anything like that way. (See the nigh-universally neglected intro to HDAS I.) Undoubtedly he'd consider it strange and incomprehensible, yet too extensive and nuanced to be merely "corrupt." Maybe he'd take a course. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 11 21:59:04 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:59:04 +0000 Subject: missile silo (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has 1958 for silo in the missile sense. Baton Rouge LA _Advocate_ 26 Nov 1957 p 3C col 1 "The Air Force will spend $300 million for construction of a intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) launching silo about 100 miles northwest of here, the Anchorage Times reported." Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Tue Aug 12 02:11:46 2014 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (Bergdahl, David) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:11:46 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news Message-ID: A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on cable news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in [nuz] fashionable? David Bergdahl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 03:41:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 23:41:06 -0400 Subject: More Facebook: "lay and wait" Message-ID: "Yet you can _lay and wait_ with a loaded assault rifle, on an overpass." For "lie in wait"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 04:53:10 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 00:53:10 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook Message-ID: "Another trend [in Central Texas] is pronouncing the long a as a long e. Examples: baby as beeby, came as ceeme, date, deet...Jake, Jeek...wait weet..." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Aug 12 05:33:22 2014 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 01:33:22 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook In-Reply-To: <201408120453.s7C1upcl005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson. I didn't know about this /e/-raising in Central Texas, but I've heard of it from the Pacific Northwest., and I believe, as a recent development, in Bill Labov's Philadelphia material. The last one could be a reaction to [ei] > [Ei], too. Paul On Aug 12, 2014, at 12:53 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Another trend [in Central Texas] is pronouncing the long a as a long e. > Examples: baby as beeby, came as ceeme, date, deet...Jake, Jeek...wait > weet..." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 07:18:12 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 03:18:12 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook In-Reply-To: <201408120533.s7C1upfx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 1:33 AM, Paul Johnston wrote: > I didn't know about this /e/-raising in Central Texas, but I've heard of > it from the Pacific Northwest., and I believe, as a recent development, in > Bill Labov's Philadelphia material. The last one could be a reaction to > [ei] > [Ei], too. That's close enough for government work, Paul. An Fb-friend from East Texas posted an article on Valley-girl-isms and a friend of his from Stephen F. Austin State - now that I think about it, that school is in *East* Texas and not Central Texas - responded with what I've quoted. Since that's the entirety of the post, it's not clear that the poster was necessarily talking about something that she'd heard in Texas. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 07:34:36 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 03:34:36 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408101302.s7AA1ifb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Never heard of it. Who is "we"? > > I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that > effect. > What chemical agent used *anywhere* has this effect? The honey-bee-killing insecticide? Still sounds like an interesting read, though. Hope I can afford it! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From byagoda at UDEL.EDU Tue Aug 12 13:48:55 2014 From: byagoda at UDEL.EDU (Yagoda, Ben) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 13:48:55 +0000 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408121343.s7CD0kER005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Where is your colleague from? The first time I was aware of hearing "Japanese" and "Chinese" pronounced that way was from my mother-in-law, born (pre-1920) and raised in Chicago. On Aug 12, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: 'noose' = news ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" sound like they end in /-is/. Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 14:00:14 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 14:00:14 +0000 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408120215.s7C1up3L005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Saying the letter "s" as an ~s for plurals is one of the two big changes in pronunciation I've noticed over the years. (The other is awe-dropping - some folks never saying the sound "awe" but "ah" in its place.) So "news" is mistakenly said as "noose" and "eyes" as "ice". Not good. In fact presidents Bush2 and Obama have this tendency. Here is/are my data on letter "s" as seen in print https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PteYgrmV3Wk . This is from truespel book 3. which has data on all 26 letters and 40 sounds of US English in terms of frequency in print. The letter "z" is the least used letter by far, but the sound ~z is in the top third of popularity (rank 13 out of 40). I find that the sound ~z is spelled by letter "s" about 95% of the time in print (which is similar to speech also), and only about 3% of the time is the sound ~z spelled by letter "z". The problem is that elementary schools do not teach pronunciation. They reason is that pronunciation guides are too cryptic. But a simple guide like truespel makes pronunciation easy enough for k-1. In fact "phonetics" is a k-1 requirement for common core. Truespel is the answer. See http://justpaste.it/comcoreenglish . But it appears to me that hardly anyone in English education knows what phonetics is. They are still coming out of the "whole word" dark ages. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bergdahl, David" > Subject: 'noose' = news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on cab= > le news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in [nuz= > ] fashionable? =20 > > David Bergdahl= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 13:43:20 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 09:43:20 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408120215.s7C1up3B005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" sound like they end in /-is/. Herb On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Bergdahl, David wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bergdahl, David" > Subject: 'noose' = news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on > cab= > le news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in > [nuz= > ] fashionable? =20 > > David Bergdahl= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 15:53:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:53:18 -0400 Subject: bangarang Message-ID: The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was, among other things, "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 15:56:51 2014 From: caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM (caitlin o) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:56:51 -0400 Subject: bangarang Message-ID: It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool, awesome, or rad. --- Original Message --- From: "Jonathan Lighter" Sent: August 12, 2014 11:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: bangarang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was, among other things, "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 16:00:28 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 12:00:28 -0400 Subject: bangarang In-Reply-To: <201408121557.s7CF07kt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Like "bang-up"? JL On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:56 AM, caitlin o wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: caitlin o > Subject: Re: bangarang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool=2C awesome=2C or rad. > > --- Original Message --- > > From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Sent: August 12=2C 2014 11:53 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: bangarang > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ---- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: bangarang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ---- > > The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was=2C among > other things=2C "a bangarang Peter Pan." > > Wha'? > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is=2C you can't handle the > truth= > ." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 12 16:09:27 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 16:09:27 +0000 Subject: bangarang In-Reply-To: <201408121557.s7CF07kx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From urbandictionary.com : bangarang 1. Battle cry of the Lost Boys in the movie Hook. 2. Jamaican slang defined as a hubbub, uproar, disorder, or disturbance. 3. General exclamation meant to signify approval or amazement. 1. "Bangarang!" 2. "What be all that bangarang?" 3. "Dude, I boned my psych professor last night." "Bangarang!" Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of caitlin o [caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:56 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: caitlin o Subject: Re: bangarang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool=2C awesome=2C or rad. --- Original Message --- From: "Jonathan Lighter" Sent: August 12=2C 2014 11:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------= ---- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: bangarang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was=2C among other things=2C "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is=2C you can't handle the truth= ." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 16:33:36 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 12:33:36 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408121349.s7CD0kHX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My colleague is from Connecticut. On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Yagoda, Ben wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Yagoda, Ben" > Subject: Re: 'noose' = news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Where is your colleague from? The first time I was aware of hearing > "Japane= > se" and "Chinese" pronounced that way was from my mother-in-law, born > (pre-= > 1920) and raised in Chicago. > > On Aug 12, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ---- > Sender: American Dialect Society ADS-L= > @LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> > Poster: Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.CO= > M>> > Subject: Re: 'noose' =3D news > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ---- > > What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would > expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a > voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel > length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens > the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" > sound like they end in /-is/. > > Herb > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 19:48:23 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: hone down into Message-ID: I've heard or read "hone in (on)" often enough not to be struck by it anymore, but today I read "hone down into" in the sense of "drill down into" or "explore more deeply." The writer is usually pretty careful, so it surprised me I suppose it could come from "hone in on." I don't see any link to "home in on." Google gives 60K raw hits. Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:12:13 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 16:12:13 +0300 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody appears in: * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell But I found no other references. Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:24:49 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:24:49 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131312.s7DA2Ivv005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his stories. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody > appears in: > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell > > But I found no other references. > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Aug 13 13:35:54 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:35:54 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe in Masques : all new works of horror and the supernatural / J N Williamson 1984 1st ed. English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm. Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180 "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon available online: http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of ADSGarson O'Toole Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his stories. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody > appears in: > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell > > But I found no other references. > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:45:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:45:11 -0400 Subject: QOTY Message-ID: David Sipress cartoon in New Yorker, Aug. 11, p. 73: "Politics is the art of nothing is possible." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:57:38 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:57:38 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131335.s7DDHX5J005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Stephen. Yes, I think Robert R. McCammon's short story "Nightcrawlers" is the right work. Tom Dalzell points to "Blue World" which is a collection of short stories by McCammon. Using "Amazon Look Inside" it is possible to see the page with the "Howdy Doody" match and the table of contents; together they indicate that the match is in "Nightcrawlers". The full text of "Nightcrawlers" that Stephen located shows the same matching passage about the (perhaps fictional) "Howdy Doody" chemical agent. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe in=0A= > Masques : =0A= > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= > J N Williamson=0A= > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= > Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= > =0A= > "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon=0A= > available online:=0A= > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of ADSGar= > son O'Toole =0A= > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > =0A= > Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= > may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > stories.=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote:=0A= >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------=0A= >> Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= >> Poster: Hugo =0A= >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------=0A= >>=0A= >> Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody=0A= >> appears in:=0A= >>=0A= >> * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Engli= > sh=0A= >> (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= >>=0A= >> * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional= > =0A= >> English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= >>=0A= >> But I found no other references.=0A= >>=0A= >> Hugo=0A= >>=0A= >> ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 14:06:39 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 10:06:39 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131357.s7DDHXDv005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, Robert McCammon was born in 1952 and received a bachelor's in journalism in 1974. He seems not to have served in Vietnam. JL On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:57 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Stephen. Yes, I think Robert R. McCammon's short story > "Nightcrawlers" is the right work. Tom Dalzell points to "Blue World" > which is a collection of short stories by McCammon. Using "Amazon Look > Inside" it is possible to see the page with the "Howdy Doody" match > and the table of contents; together they indicate that the match is in > "Nightcrawlers". The full text of "Nightcrawlers" that Stephen located > shows the same matching passage about the (perhaps fictional) "Howdy > Doody" chemical agent. > > Garson > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Maybe in=0A= > > Masques : =0A= > > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= > > J N Williamson=0A= > > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= > > Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= > > =0A= > > "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon=0A= > > available online:=0A= > > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > ________________________________________=0A= > > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of > ADSGar= > > son O'Toole =0A= > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > > =0A= > > Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= > > may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > > stories.=0A= > > =0A= > > Garson=0A= > > =0A= > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote:=0A= > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -----------------= > > ------=0A= > >> Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > >> Poster: Hugo =0A= > >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ------=0A= > >>=0A= > >> Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy > Doody=0A= > >> appears in:=0A= > >>=0A= > >> * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional > Engli= > > sh=0A= > >> (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= > >>=0A= > >> * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional= > > =0A= > >> English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= > >>=0A= > >> But I found no other references.=0A= > >>=0A= > >> Hugo=0A= > >>=0A= > >> ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Wed Aug 13 14:44:11 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 14:44:11 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE McCammon's "Nightcrawlers" is online here: http://www.nightmare-magazine.com/fiction/nightcrawlers/ A quote: "I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray we called Howdy Doody - because it made you stiffen up and jerk like you were hanging on strings." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Stephen Goranson > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 8:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Maybe in=0A= > Masques : =0A= > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= J N Williamson=0A= > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= Baltimore : Maclay, ; > ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= =0A= "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. > McCammon=0A= available online:=0A= > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of > ADSGar= son O'Toole =0A= > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= =0A= Dalzell cites > Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= may have > invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > stories.=0A= =0A= Garson=0A= =0A= On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo > wrote:=0A= > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > -----------------= > ------=0A= > > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > > Poster: Hugo =0A= > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > ---= > ------=0A= > >=0A= > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy > >Doody=0A= appears in:=0A= =0A= > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional > >Engli= > sh=0A= > > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= =0A= > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and > >Unconventional= > =0A= > > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= =0A= But I found no other > >references.=0A= =0A= Hugo=0A= =0A= > >------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 15:08:15 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:08:15 -0400 Subject: Computational Linguistics of Twitter Message-ID: Computational Linguistics of Twitter Reveals the Existence of Global Superdialects The first study of dialects on Twitter reveals global patterns that have never been observed before. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/529836/computational-linguistics-of-twitter-reveals-the-existence-of-global-superdialects/ DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 15:31:19 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:31:19 -0400 Subject: Computational Linguistics of Twitter In-Reply-To: <201408131508.s7DEpRBd005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > Computational Linguistics of Twitter Reveals the Existence of Global > Superdialects > > The first study of dialects on Twitter reveals global patterns that have > never been observed before. > > http://www.technologyreview.com/view/529836/computational-linguistics-of-twitter-reveals-the-existence-of-global-superdialects/ Aside from any problems with the study itself, the sub-headline here is patently false -- in no way is this "the first study of dialects on Twitter." Jacob Eisenstein and his colleagues have been mining Twitter for U.S. dialectal patterns since 2010, presenting their findings at the 2011 LSA meeting. And at the 2012 ADS meeting, we heard Brice Russ present on his own research into "Twitalectology." Relevant links: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jeisenst/papers/emnlp2010.pdf http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jeisenst/papers/lsa.pdf http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/sunday/twitterology-a-new-science.html http://www.vocabulary.com/articles/wordroutes/tracking-dialects-on-twitter-whats-coo-and-whats-koo/ http://www.briceruss.com/?page_id=31 http://www.briceruss.com/ADStalk.pdf http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2012/01/15/american-dialects-from/XqI0XVzZBcwub6MA1F2fSK/story.html http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/02/regional-english-tweet-by-tweet/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 18:18:05 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 14:18:05 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: <201404231257.s3NCsmkQ020417@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. Here was one who was catnip to women. It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American Mercury_. JL On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: catnip for the ladies > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey > Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) > > 659,000 Google strikes. > > Earlier: > > 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and > mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. > > 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the > street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the > women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into > Kirk's dressing room some dark night. > > 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: > It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now > becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear > this until you are 50 years old. > > 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome > [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to > become catnip for the ladies. > > Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word > (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth."1943 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 13 22:15:36 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:15:36 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Slang_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share below with ads-l. "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to share with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better typify the material he came across in his research. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and for the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm surprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a couple places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as marginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 22:54:00 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 18:54:00 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408132215.s7DJRic5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jerry: Sharing some other entries sounds like a great idea. Clarification: Creating a comprehensive reference work about slang entails an enormous amount of effort. My conjectural comments about one intriguing and vivid entry were made in the spirit of exploration. I hope that the conversational thread will not be misconstrued as detractive. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed = > chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Sla= > ng_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share= > below with ads-l. > > "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to sha= > re with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better ty= > pify the material he came across in his research. > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and fo= > r the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm s= > urprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a coup= > le places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as m= > arginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Than= > ks, Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at CABLEMO.NET Thu Aug 14 02:24:06 2014 From: dwhause at CABLEMO.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published > b= > y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of > materia= > l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Aug 14 02:40:19 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:40:19 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm a former US Army chemical officer and I concur. The effects sound like a nerve agent, and being "drenched" with that would invariably be lethal. Plus, no nerve agents were used in Vietnam. Riot control agents and defoliants like Agent Orange, but not nerve agents. Of course, it could be some other kind of chemical other than a weapon. But I would point out that McCammon's "Blue World is a fantasy novel. I suspect the term was simply invented by McCammon, but I don't the wider context in which the quote is used in the novel. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and > published b= y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive > compilation of materia= l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Aug 14 10:54:48 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 06:54:48 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <00a201cfb769$16a20640$43e612c0$@net> Message-ID: Correction: Blue World is a collection of short stories, most of them fantasy and horror. Perhaps the one in which "howdy doody" appears is a more realistic one about Vietnam. I don't know. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:40 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang I'm a former US Army chemical officer and I concur. The effects sound like a nerve agent, and being "drenched" with that would invariably be lethal. Plus, no nerve agents were used in Vietnam. Riot control agents and defoliants like Agent Orange, but not nerve agents. Of course, it could be some other kind of chemical other than a weapon. But I would point out that McCammon's "Blue World is a fantasy novel. I suspect the term was simply invented by McCammon, but I don't the wider context in which the quote is used in the novel. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and > published b= y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive > compilation of materia= l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Thu Aug 14 11:07:10 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:07:10 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz Message-ID: Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 14:35:45 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:35:45 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." Message-ID: You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells it out again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the bard "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! (Maybe both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's a riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already obsolete.) As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read Sonnet IV the same way again. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 14:49:31 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:49:31 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells it out > again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). > > But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the bard > "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! (Maybe > both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's a > riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already obsolete.) > > As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read Sonnet IV > the same way again. > > JL Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous niggard". LH > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 15:09:49 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:09:49 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: <201408141449.s7EDkVRB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) who said, "You can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." I stand corrected. JL On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = > it out > > again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). > >=20 > > But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = > bard > > "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! = > (Maybe > > both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's = > a > > riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already = > obsolete.) > >=20 > > As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read = > Sonnet IV > > the same way again. > >=20 > > JL > > Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless = > we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again = > it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = > line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous = > niggard". > > LH > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 15:42:47 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:42:47 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: <201408131818.s7DGtQZ3005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an example with a man described as catnip that seems to be negative. Title: The New Missioner Author: Mrs. Wilson Woodrow Year: 1907 Publisher: The McClure Company, New York Chapter: 19 Quote Page: 270 http://books.google.com/books?id=eWspAQAAIAAJ&q=catnip#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] "It's been six weeks an' more since Jack wrote her, commandin' her to come back the minute she got the letter, an' she ain't paid no more attention to it than if he was catnip," announced Mrs. Thomas. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: catnip for the ladies > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): > > 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was > a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. > Here was one who was catnip to women. > > It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American > Mercury_. > > JL > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: catnip for the ladies >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey >> Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) >> >> 659,000 Google strikes. >> >> Earlier: >> >> 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and >> mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. >> >> 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the >> street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the >> women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into >> Kirk's dressing room some dark night. >> >> 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: >> It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now >> becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear >> this until you are 50 years old. >> >> 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome >> [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to >> become catnip for the ladies. >> >> Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word >> (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). >> >> JL >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth."1943 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 16:10:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:10:15 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous > niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. > > Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) Yeah, and that was after he shortened it to get past the censors. LH > who said, "You > can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." > > I stand corrected. > > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = >> it out >>> again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). >>> =20 >>> But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = >> bard >>> "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! = >> (Maybe >>> both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's = >> a >>> riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already = >> obsolete.) >>> =20 >>> As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read = >> Sonnet IV >>> the same way again. >>> =20 >>> JL >> >> Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless = >> we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again = >> it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = >> line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous = >> niggard". >> >> LH >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = >> truth." >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 16:12:49 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:42 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Here is an example with a man described as catnip that seems to be negative. > > Title: The New Missioner > Author: Mrs. Wilson Woodrow > Year: 1907 > Publisher: The McClure Company, New York > Chapter: 19 > Quote Page: 270 > > http://books.google.com/books?id=eWspAQAAIAAJ&q=catnip#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > "It's been six weeks an' more since Jack wrote her, commandin' her to > come back the minute she got the letter, an' she ain't paid no more > attention to it than if he was catnip," announced Mrs. Thomas. > [End excerpt] > > Garson Seems like Jack was just catnip for the cats and not the ladies (assuming the "her" in question is a lady and not a cat.) LH > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: catnip for the ladies >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): >> >> 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was >> a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. >> Here was one who was catnip to women. >> >> It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American >> Mercury_. >> >> JL >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: catnip for the ladies >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey >>> Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) >>> >>> 659,000 Google strikes. >>> >>> Earlier: >>> >>> 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and >>> mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. >>> >>> 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the >>> street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the >>> women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into >>> Kirk's dressing room some dark night. >>> >>> 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: >>> It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now >>> becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear >>> this until you are 50 years old. >>> >>> 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome >>> [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to >>> become catnip for the ladies. >>> >>> Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word >>> (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). >>> >>> JL >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >>> truth."1943 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 16:28:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:28:33 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: <201408141610.s7EFlM97005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I stand in awe at the depth of the analysis. Your academic future is secure. JL On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous > > niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. > >=20 > > Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) > > Yeah, and that was after he shortened it to get past the censors. > > LH > > > who said, "You > > can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." > >=20 > > I stand corrected. > >=20 > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn = > > > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>=20 > >>> You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = > =3D > >> it out > >>> again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, = > 2005). > >>> =3D20 > >>> But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = > =3D > >> bard > >>> "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! =3D > >> (Maybe > >>> both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and = > what's =3D > >> a > >>> riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already =3D > >> obsolete.) > >>> =3D20 > >>> As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read =3D > >> Sonnet IV > >>> the same way again. > >>> =3D20 > >>> JL > >>=20 > >> Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken = > (unless =3D > >> we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then = > again =3D > >> it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = > =3D > >> line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous =3D= > > >> niggard". > >>=20 > >> LH > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> --=3D20 > >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > =3D > >> truth." > >>> =3D20 > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 19:03:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' Message-ID: Several times in the past few days I've heard comments about the shooting in Missouri to the effect that "Police need to respect the black male body," and "Black bodies are important." My SWAG is that it ultimately goes back to Elaine Scarry's intellectually influential _The Body in Pain_ (1985). It doesn't just mean "person." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 20:09:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:09:37 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Several times in the past few days I've heard comments about the shooting > in Missouri to the effect that "Police need to respect the black male > body," and "Black bodies are important." > > My SWAG is that it ultimately goes back to Elaine Scarry's intellectually > influential _The Body in Pain_ (1985). > > It doesn't just mean "person." > > JL > Or, fortunately, 'corpse', as an illustration of what the OED considers a possible euphemistic truncation of "dead body" (sense 2, cites back to 1225). I've wondered whether "There are 5 bodies in the room" really has a distinct reading on which it entails that all of them are dead ones or just strongly suggests it. ("Wait--that body is moving" doesn't seem like a contradiction, so perhaps it's still just an invited pragmatic inference, from the non-use of "5 people in the room", that the bodies in question are indeed dead ones/corpses. Maybe "victims" works the same way in this context.) Of course this only applies to *being* a body and not to *having* one, as in Jon's examples above. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 22:17:03 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 18:17:03 -0400 Subject: jihottie In-Reply-To: <53ED3471.1000704@gmail.com> Message-ID: Addendum: UD has a 2007 entry for "jihotti" > A hot middle eastern woman This changes the timeline, somewhat, but not by much. VS-) On 8/14/2014 6:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I noticed in recent news the acquittal of a British-Morrocan 27-year > old of charges of aiding terrorism. She made news a few months ago by > rolling up and hiding 20000 euro "in her skivvies", as the tabloids > reported it. The woman who gave her the cash was, on the other hand, > convicted. > > Queue the Daily Mail. > > http://goo.gl/B1jYsr >> A student accused of funding terrorism in Syria walked free from >> court yesterday after she was cleared of trying to smuggle cash out >> of the UK in her knickers. >> University student Nawal Msaad, 27, was caught with £16,000 in euros >> stuffed in her underwear at Heathrow as she attempted to board a >> flight to Istanbul. >> ... >> Miss Msaad, whose model looks have earned her the nickname ‘jihottie’ >> on social media sites, wept as she was cleared. The London >> Metropolitan University human resources management undergraduate >> appeared during the trial to be a most unlikely jihadi sympathiser. > > It's that last bit that got my attention. DM makes it sound as if > "jihottie" is something new. But UD goes back to at least 2009 with > the entry. > >> A term used to describe a smokin' hot, sexy muslim girl > > This appears to follow a more interesting list. From HotAir 05.03.08 > (joke in the comments) >> STATE DEPARTMENT’S BANNED TERMS: >> >> AL-QA’IDA: Sheik for brains. >> ARABIC SUICIDE BOMBER: Camelkaze. >> OSAMA BIN LADEN: Turban legend. >> JIHAD: Heavenly fatah. >> JIHOTTIES: Young Al-Qa’ida women. >> >> Dr. Charles G. Waugh on May 3, 2008 at 1:47 PM > > But that's not all of it. From the RX Forum 12.23.05 (in header only): > > http://goo.gl/QXEGdu > Jihad Jihottie? Osama's Niece Wants Acceptance >> Osama bin Laden's niece, in an interview with GQ magazine in which >> she appears scantily clad, says she has nothing in common with the >> al-Qaida leader and simply wants acceptance by Americans. >> >> "Everyone relates me to that man, and I have nothing to do with him," >> Wafah Dufour, the daughter of bin Laden's half brother, Yeslam >> Binladin, says in the January edition of magazine, referring to the >> Al-Qaida leader. >> >> "I want to be accepted here, but I feel that everybody's judging me >> and rejecting me," said the California-born Dufour, a law graduate >> who lives in New York. "Come on, where's the American spirit? Accept >> me. I want to be embraced, because my values are like yours. And I'm >> here. I'm not hiding." >> >> Dufour, who adopted her mother's maiden name after the Sept. 11, 2001 >> attacks that have been blamed on bin Laden, appears in several >> provocative photos in the magazine. > > I'm not sure where the headline came from (not GQ, apparently). > > A bit over a year ago, the NY Post also used the headline, in > reference to Tsarnaev: > > http://goo.gl/RMe5NI > > And does not appear to have been an isolated reference to Tsarnaev either. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 23:53:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 19:53:23 -0400 Subject: a "credible alternative" Message-ID: CNN reports a U.S. government official's claim (or recommendation) that ISIS is now "a credible alternative to al-Qaeda." So if al-Qaeda doesn't work for you anymore, or if it's gotten too pricey, you can switch. That's democracy for you. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 07:45:27 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:45:27 +0800 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408142009.s7EK344D005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: (1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) (2) <> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 15 13:41:58 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:41:58 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > (1) <>. As the remainder of the verse indicates-- O gin a body meet a body, Comin’ thro’ the rye; Gin a body f—k a body, Need a body cry? [Burns, R. [1800] 1964. Comin’ thro’ the rye. In: J. Burke and S. Goodsir Smith (eds.), _The merry muses of Caledonia_, p. 144. G. P. Putnam’s Sons, New York.] --Robbie Burns was definitely thinking of bodies here, and not just metonymically. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 14:18:27 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 10:18:27 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408151342.s7FCp6mR005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Even his name means VD. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > > > (1) <>. =20 > > As the remainder of the verse indicates-- > > O gin a body meet a body, > Comin=E2=80=99 thro=E2=80=99 the rye; > Gin a body f=E2=80=94k a body, > Need a body cry? > > [Burns, R. [1800] 1964. Comin=C2=92 thro=C2=92 the rye. In: J. Burke and = > S. Goodsir Smith (eds.), _The merry muses of Caledonia_, p. 144. > G. P. Putnam=C2=92s Sons, New York.] > > --Robbie Burns was definitely thinking of bodies here, and not just = > metonymically. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 15 19:06:10 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:06:10 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: >(1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson >cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) >(2) <> in anatomy. Not in metonymy. Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor "monotony" either. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 15 20:38:07 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:38:07 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <993000.78656.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> (1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson >> cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) >> (2) <> > > in anatomy. > > Not in metonymy. > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor "monotony" either. > Or "monogamy"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 20:53:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:53:19 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152038.s7FIt1k9005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No soap, mahogany. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >=20 > >> (1) <>. (Recall Gary = > Larson > >> cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field = > ...) > >> (2) <> > >=20 > > in anatomy. > >=20 > > Not in metonymy. > >=20 > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., = > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th = > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor = > "monotony" either. > >=20 > Or "monogamy"? > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 21:19:34 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:19:34 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408150745.s7F7VP2F005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > warm bodies The usual term in the Army, fifty years ago, enlisted men being indistinguishable, one from another, for military purposes. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 21:33:23 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:33:23 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408151906.s7FIt19v005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor > "monotony" either. > Isn't that part of Cambridge now Arlington? There's a tee-nine-shee bit of the primordial wilderness there that's called "Menotomy." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 22:11:52 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 18:11:52 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152134.s7FIt10n005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, but while "warm bodies" can feel pain, that implication is entirely irrelevant to the usual context. In the current sense, it appears to be central. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., > > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th > > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor > > "monotony" either. > > > > Isn't that part of Cambridge now Arlington? There's a tee-nine-shee bit of > the primordial wilderness there that's called "Menotomy." > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 01:25:49 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 21:25:49 -0400 Subject: A Facebooker from St. Louis Message-ID: commenting upon open-carry at the ado in nearby Ferguson: "_Are_ is that just okay for white folks?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 16 03:26:34 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 23:26:34 -0400 Subject: A Facebooker from St. Louis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/15/2014 09:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >commenting upon open-carry at the ado in nearby Ferguson: > >"_Are_ is that just okay for white folks?" Is it still Talk Like a Pirate Day? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 11:38:27 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:38:27 +0800 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152211.s7FLY45n005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And Shakespeare is Michael J Fox on Viagra. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 13:14:40 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 09:14:40 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408161138.s7GA1QfT005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by someone else of the same name.) Other than "wanker" (which may be primal in a Freudian, Lacanian, and Marxist, and pornocritical context), the name "Shakespeare" signifies 1. warrior 2. flasher 3. orchard thief (cf. the incident in the youth of Augustine of Hippo, whose name means "teenager born in August of a hippopotamus") 4. peer of guy named "Shay," eME {Shae}, {Shea} cf. recent English "Shea Stadium," also popular. (The intrusive voiceless velar stop is consistent with a tmetic clearing of the throat to mask preconscious embarrassment at comparing oneself to Shay All of these significations, as well as others, remain constantly in play, compelling us to defer final judgment forever and watch cartoons. JL (whose name means "Bringer of Light to the Head in the Naval Sense, Which Subconsciously Also Implies Cranium") On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:38 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And Shakespeare is Michael J Fox on Viagra. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 13:38:00 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) Message-ID: A version of the quotation in the subject line was discussed by three journalists on twitter, and they brought me into the loop. Key references such as the Yale Book of Quotations, The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, The Oxford Dictionary of Humorous Quotations, and Cassell's Humorous Quotations list two different versions of the saying attributed to William Ralph Inge in 1927, 1929, and later. Progress on tracing the adage is presented here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/15/original/ Below is the citation for the earliest close match I've located in 1896. However, there are earlier variants using the phrase "undetected imitation" instead of "undetected plagiarism" as presented at the QI website. [ref] 1896 April, The Nineteenth Century, Volume 39, The Decay of Classical Quotation by Herbert Paul, Start Page 636, Quote Page 645, Published by Sampson, Low, Marston and Company, London. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=rtsaAAAAYAAJ&q=plagiarism#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. [End excerpt] Additional interesting citations would be welcome. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 12:48:22 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:48:22 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408014430027.81751@duke.edu> Message-ID: More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Err Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 13:47:26 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:47:26 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Wee Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 15:14:34 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:14:34 +0000 Subject: *correction* RE: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408196846127.56192@duke.edu> Message-ID: The spelling below should be: "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the *friz*...up the wits" So deeply ingrained is the "fritz" spelling. (Sorry for the two messages; the computer here different than usual...on the friz.?) Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Wee Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 16 15:51:41 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 11:51:41 -0400 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408193302022.19348@duke.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > More on "on the friz." > Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. > > (1) A Sovereign Remedy > Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; > It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... > Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; > It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... > --Washington Herald > (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) > > (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Err Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: Interesting use of "skit" with which I wasn't familiar (referring to Kipling's limerick below). This sense apparently evolves somehow from from the earlier 1. a. A female of a vain, frivolous, or wanton disposition. Sense 2a is 'A quizzing or satirical reflection upon, or hit at, a person or thing; a remark of this nature', as in 1820–2 W. H. Pyne Wine & Walnuts (1824) II. xi. 174 No more of your skits at my right noble country. This antedated but overlapped with the cites for the now current sense, 2b:* 'A literary or artistic production intended as a piece of light satire, parody, or caricature' This is all under SKIT n., 2, not to be confused with SKIT n., 1: 'diarrhoea in animals, esp. sheep'. I had always wondered what the word is for that. LH *Actually, that definition seems a bit narrow for current skits, e.g. segments in a variety show, falling under the AHD definition: 'A short, usually comic dramatic performance or work; a theatrical sketch'. But the entry hasn't been updated. > "There was once a small boy of Quebec, > Who was buried in snow to the neck. > When asked: "Are you friz?" > He replied: "Yes, I is. > But we don't call this cold in Quebec." > --Albany Journal > (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) > > I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." > > Stephen > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... > Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz > > Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. > > Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. > > "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). > > Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. > > > Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: > > > 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" > > 1886 "a friz nose" > > 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" > > [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] > > 1897 "friz up all de creeks" > > 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" > > 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." > > 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] > > 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." > > 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] > > 1905 "business goes on the fritz." > > 1905 "good manners done friz up" > > 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" > > 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" > > 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." > > 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." > > 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" > > 1909 "show is on de fritz" > > 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." > > 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." > > 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] > > > Stephen Goranson > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 16 16:00:29 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:00:29 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/16/2014 09:38 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: >And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. From more than one source, of course. "Stealing ideas from one person is plagiarism; stealing ideas from many is originality."* * Better known as research. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 16:11:09 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:11:09 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) In-Reply-To: <201408161600.s7GFQ23h005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole wrote: >>And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. Joel S. Berson" wrote: > From more than one source, of course. "Stealing ideas from one > person is plagiarism; stealing ideas from many is originality."* > * Better known as research. Thanks for your response, Joel. There is a relevant entry on the QI website. If You Steal From One Author, It’s Plagiarism; If You Steal From Many, It’s Research http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/09/20/plagiarism/ The earliest strong match was in 1932 in a journal called "Special Libraries": [Begin excerpt] I am reminded of the man who was asked what plagiarism was. He said: "It is plagiarism when you take something out of a book and use it as your own. If you take it out of several books then it is research." [End excerpt] Another thematically related entry: Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 16:14:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:14:18 -0400 Subject: More from CNN Message-ID: Anchor: "...warned Ferguson Police against to release the videotape..." Guest: "Black people in this country are constantly othered." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 19:18:47 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:18:47 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" Message-ID: OED: Feb., 1945. 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 19:27:22 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:27:22 -0400 Subject: Headline Message-ID: "Ex-cop who burned body again gets 17 years" No doubt, had he been satisfied with burning the body only once, he'd have gotten a lighter sentence. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Sat Aug 16 20:13:45 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:13:45 -0300 Subject: Headline In-Reply-To: <201408161928.s7GFQ2aP005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ya, whole deal is bizarre. But it should have read "Ex-cop who burned body gets 17 years again" as some appeals judge said re-do this and, after the re-doing, the guy ended up getting the same sentence again. DAD Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Headline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- "Ex-cop who burned body again gets 17 years" No doubt, had he been satisfied with burning the body only once, he'd have gotten a lighter sentence. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 21:17:54 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: sammie Message-ID: Yahoo! today: "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer sammie." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From byagoda at UDEL.EDU Sat Aug 16 21:36:05 2014 From: byagoda at UDEL.EDU (Yagoda, Ben) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:36:05 +0000 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408162117.s7GFQ2lb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Favored, and possibly popularized, by Rachael Ray. On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 16 21:38:39 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 14:38:39 -0700 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408162117.s7GFQ2lh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wiktionary has a citation in 2006 and two in 2009 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:sammie). BB On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 23:32:14 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:32:14 -0400 Subject: profanity = 'obscene word or phrase' Message-ID: OED 1969 (insufficiently differentiated, I think), and mentioned here before. A unmistakable antedating: 1964 Arthur S. Link in _N.Y. Times Book Review_ (March 8) 6: Wilson, Smith writes, "burst into a stream of profanities and obscenities." Wilson occasionally used "damn" and "hell" in conversation, but never, insofar as this reviewer knows, profanities and obscenities, "D--n" and "h--l," of course, were top nineteenth-century profanities, so Prof. Link (editor of Woodrow Wilson's papers) must have believed that "profanity" and "obscenity" were essentially synonymous. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Aug 16 23:52:27 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:52:27 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <1C65F23F-110B-4472-B33B-978B8C6ADDF1@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: "Sammie" goes back to the early 1980s at the very least. I had a friend in my undergraduate years who used it continually. Here's one from 2 April 1999 in the Usenet group nz.reg.wellington.general: "My favourite sandwich is one published in the Listener from a sammy bar in Cuba" And a later one from 22 Feb 2001 in rec.music.gdead: "You can actually hear the crisp crunch of the lettuce (hand-leafed iceburg I think) as Phil enjoys his sammy." I could've probably found more if Google hadn't deliberately killed their Usenet search capabilities. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 5:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: sammie Wiktionary has a citation in 2006 and two in 2009 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:sammie). BB On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 01:55:17 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:55:17 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <4D9666EE-D49E-4458-8363-138877893A75@win.udel.edu> Message-ID: I guess, but for me, as someone who spent 11 years as a companion person to my late, lamented Samoyed, a "killer sammie" is an oxymoronic descriptor of a dog that looks like this https://www.facebook.com/SamoyedRescueofTexas and is nevertheless a killer. Technically I suppose that would count as a killer Sammie, though, not a killer sammie. LH On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:36 PM, Yagoda, Ben wrote: > Favored, and possibly popularized, by Rachael Ray. > > On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: sammie >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Yahoo! today: >> >> "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer >> sammie." >> >> JL >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 03:56:39 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 23:56:39 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408161614.s7GFQ26N005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Aug 17 05:44:31 2014 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 01:44:31 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170155.s7H0k061005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was discussed here in 2005. "Sammy" = "sandwich" is apparently more usual in New Zealand, along with "footie" = "football", "rellies" = "relatives", etc., etc., IIRC. I don't recall ever hearing it in conversation myself, but I might not notice (I would probably take it to be jocular and/or baby-talk in most contexts). I have seen it very seldom written. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 07:05:21 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:05:21 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170545.s7H0k0bn005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:37:49 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 08:37:49 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170705.s7H0k0e7005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, well, a fellow grad student in the '80s always talked about "sammitches," his intonation suggesting that the pronunciation was thoroughly affected rather than a natural, perhaps toddlerish, version of the cluster-rich "sandwiches." That was in Tennessee. I'd never heard it in NYC, but maybe I didn't get out enough. In any event, no "sammie" for me till now. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:57:56 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:57:56 +0000 Subject: sammie - babytalk In-Reply-To: <201408170705.s7H0k0dt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My son would say "samrich" and we did so as well. Just for fun. Language is puckish. I wonder how much baby talk affects language. My guess is that "awe-dropping" in USA is a effect of babytalk in that "awe" is a bit difficult to pronounce, so "ah" is substituted, and the trend continues. Note that "r" is a bit difficult to pronounce and there is a lot of "r-dropping" around. I'm just sayin'. I wonder if Bubba knows? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 13:01:07 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 09:01:07 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408170357.s7H0k0DZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass more specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" or "victimized by authority" or worse. Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any ethnic designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of "otherness" from, you know, the "other." 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most likely have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience of being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." JL On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:51:37 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 08:51:37 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171237.s7HBiR4f005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From Know Your Meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/make-me-a-sandwich [Begin excerpt] "Make me a sandwich," sometimes deliberately misspelled as "Make me a sammich," is a catchphrase often used by male internet users to mock, discredit or annoy female internet users, playing off of the sexist trope[1] which states that women belong in the kitchen. [End excerpt] On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yeah, well, a fellow grad student in the '80s always talked about > "sammitches," his intonation suggesting that the pronunciation was > thoroughly affected rather than a natural, perhaps toddlerish, version of > the cluster-rich "sandwiches." > > That was in Tennessee. I'd never heard it in NYC, but maybe I didn't get > out enough. > > In any event, no "sammie" for me till now. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: W Brewer >> Subject: Re: sammie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] >> I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 13:43:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 09:43:17 -0400 Subject: "The Land that God Forgot" Message-ID: 58,000 RGs. YBQ has "The land that Time forgot" from E. R. Burroughs in 1924. 1903 _Bellingham [Wash.] Herald_ (Dec. 19) II 10: The Reveille, for campaign purposes has rescued J. P. De Mattos from "the land that God forgot," whither he had drifted since the failure of his re-election in Whatcom. 1910 C. J. Blanchard in _National Geographic Magazine_ (April) 277: "The Land that God Forgot" ... [The Arizona desert] is the land some one called "The Land that God Forgot." I heard it in the '60s. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 14:44:33 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:44:33 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by > someone else of the same name.) JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars: 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name. 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name. I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others. Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point. The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database. [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=XiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name, reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name! [End excerpt] [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4, Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=DR6NP-RgCfUC&q=%22not+written+by%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of the same name? [End excerpt] Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous remarks based on Homer. [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1, (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30, 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J. Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=VKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems, and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name." [End excerpt] Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted the comical remarks. [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View) http://books.google.com/books?id=alQAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+name%22+#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey, in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 14:48:08 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:48:08 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 03:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: >[SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] >I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. Seems to me rather than [SAM-mitch] I heard [SAM-witch]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 17 14:43:13 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 14:43:13 +0000 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 Message-ID: In the following article, apparently, Billy Brady is the promoter and manager (1863-1950?) who "cannot be blamed for making hay while the sun shines"--making money before the New York boxing law may change. And "haymaker," in this instance, may refer to a boxer under his management, rather than to a specific punch. "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in one fight in New York than there is in half dozen at Carson or some other outlandish place where finish fights are possible. Besides, he's got the best haymaker in the puglistic meadow." Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquirer p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 14:59:36 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:59:36 -0400 Subject: "The Land that God Forgot" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 09:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >1903 _Bellingham [Wash.] Herald_ (Dec. 19) II 10: The Reveille, for >campaign purposes has rescued J. P. De Mattos from "the land that God >forgot," whither he had drifted since the failure of his re-election in >Whatcom. Jon, you've discovered the ur-URL. Or perhaps the prototype-URL, with "what" to be replaced by a real site.* Joel *I've learned today that Whatcom County *is* a real place, in the State of Washington (and its county seat is Bellingham). So it's not a proto- but an ur-. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 17 15:26:23 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:26:23 +0000 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860: "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Shakespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespeare, but by another person of the same name!" The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB http://books.google.com/books?id=Qi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA38&dq=%22but+by+another+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=scfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved=0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=onepage&q=%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20same%20name%22&f=false Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________ Garson: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by > someone else of the same name.) JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars: 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name. 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name. I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others. Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point. The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database. [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=XiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name, reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name! [End excerpt] [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4, Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=DR6NP-RgCfUC&q=%22not+written+by%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of the same name? [End excerpt] Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous remarks based on Homer. [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1, (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30, 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J. Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=VKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems, and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name." [End excerpt] Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted the comical remarks. [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View) http://books.google.com/books?id=alQAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+name%22+#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey, in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:27:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:27:15 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171448.s7HBiRH5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The form I used as a child - and still use in moments of hunger. But not "sammitch." JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2014 03:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > > >[SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > >I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > Seems to me rather than [SAM-mitch] I heard [SAM-witch]. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:30:01 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:30:01 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. I'd always heard it attributed to Mark Twain (not his real name). Your notice also advances the cause of Punnoporno Critique, JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > > someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:31:54 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 23:31:54 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171448.s7HBiRHB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. [SA(nasalization)-which] > [SA(nasalizationTCH]. Holdamayo. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:34:04 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:34:04 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171530.s7HBiRKF005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Or Pornopunno, as some call it. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Garson. I'd always heard it attributed to Mark Twain (not his real > name). > > Your notice also advances the cause of Punnoporno Critique, > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > > Sh= > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > > Shakespea= > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > > > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > > > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > ________________=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Garson:=0A= > > =0A= > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > > > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > > > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > > > someone else of the same name.)=0A= > > =0A= > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > > =0A= > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > > of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > > another man of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > > =0A= > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > > =0A= > > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > > nippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > > name!=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the > plays=0A= > > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > > the same name?=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > > [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > > nippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate > among=0A= > > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the > subject=0A= > > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > > another person of the same name."=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > > the comical remarks.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > > ippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the > Odyssey,=0A= > > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer > III.=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Garson=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:36:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:36:15 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171531.s7HBiRKb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the future, Louis Armstrong will be assumed to have been sandwich connoisseur. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:31 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: > [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. > [SA(nasalization)-which] > > [SA(nasalizationTCH]. > Holdamayo. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:56:06 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 23:56:06 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171536.s7HBiRLb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not to mention Sammie Davis, junior. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Sun Aug 17 15:57:46 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:57:46 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171443.s7HBiRGB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in one fight in New York than th= > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other outlandish place where finish = > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the best haymaker in the puglistic m= > eadow." > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) I would have thought much older for haymaker=punch, if not necessarily boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed the “Haymakers” before 1867, possibly in 1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, but a number of recent texts about them present the nickname as big city slur on them being from the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its brush industry, not for being a farm community). Some do attribute it to their punches. Neither seem to present sources to back their claims (at least on a cursory review of them just now). Over time it may have meant both things with respect to the team, and it looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: “When the news of the first innings was received, showing a tally of 6 for the ‘Mowers’ to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the ‘reconstructed’ nine meant business, and the chances of their success looked decidedly encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing their lead, hope became certainty, and there were plenty of ‘Haymakers’ to be found, the batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.” “The National Game; ‘Blood will Tell’—The Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals—The ‘Blue Above the Green.’” Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 16:22:53 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:22:53 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Excellent citation! Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for your response, JL. There is a connection to Mark Twain. He repeated a version of the Homer quip and ascribed it to a school child. Details will be given on the QI website within a few days; lord willing, and if the creek don't rise. Garson On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 16:23:52 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:23:52 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or Satchel Paige—"Don't look back, something may be gaining on you, wearing a sandwich board". LH On Aug 17, 2014, at 11:36 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In the future, Louis Armstrong will be assumed to have been sandwich > connoisseur. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:31 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: W Brewer >> Subject: Re: sammie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: >> [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. >> [SA(nasalization)-which] > >> [SA(nasalizationTCH]. >> Holdamayo. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 16:48:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:48:44 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <82C3B48C-6A31-4A6C-9066-4B8D5073CF70@mac.com> Message-ID: I am led to wonder whether there is any connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) Joel At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in > one fight in New York than th= > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other > outlandish place where finish = > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the > best haymaker in the puglistic m= > > eadow." > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > >I would have thought much older for >haymaker=punch, if not necessarily >boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed >the “Haymakers” before 1867, possibly in >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, >but a number of recent texts about them present >the nickname as big city slur on them being from >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its >brush industry, not for being a farm >community). Some do attribute it to their >punches. Neither seem to present sources to >back their claims (at least on a cursory review >of them just now). Over time it may have meant >both things with respect to the team, and it >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > >“When the news of the first innings was >received, showing a tally of 6 for the ‘Mowers’ >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the >‘reconstructed’ nine meant business, and the >chances of their success looked decidedly >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing >their lead, hope became certainty, and there >were plenty of ‘Haymakers’ to be found, the >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.” >“The National Game; ‘Blood will Tell’—The >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals—The ‘Blue Above >the Green.’” Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > >Chris Philippo >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Aug 17 18:55:25 2014 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (sclements at NEO.RR.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 18:55:25 +0000 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <873144.95035.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=punch, the "punch" use can be found using Genealogy Bank in 1900. 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight for the kid. Sam Clements ---- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > I am led to wonder whether there is any > connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in > one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in > baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one > other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) > > Joel > > At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in > > one fight in New York than th= > > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other > > outlandish place where finish = > > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the > > best haymaker in the puglistic m= > > > eadow." > > > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's > > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > > > >I would have thought much older for > >haymaker=punch, if not necessarily > >boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a > >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed > >the “Haymakers” before 1867, possibly in > >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, > >but a number of recent texts about them present > >the nickname as big city slur on them being from > >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its > >brush industry, not for being a farm > >community). Some do attribute it to their > >punches. Neither seem to present sources to > >back their claims (at least on a cursory review > >of them just now). Over time it may have meant > >both things with respect to the team, and it > >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > > > >“When the news of the first innings was > >received, showing a tally of 6 for the ‘Mowers’ > >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd > >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the > >‘reconstructed’ nine meant business, and the > >chances of their success looked decidedly > >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, > >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing > >their lead, hope became certainty, and there > >were plenty of ‘Haymakers’ to be found, the > >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and > >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.” > >“The National Game; ‘Blood will Tell’—The > >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals—The ‘Blue Above > >the Green.’” Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > > > >Chris Philippo > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 19:49:35 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:49:35 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171855.s7HBiRix005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term for a farmer or rustic. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > Subject: Re: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=3Dpunch, the "punch" use can be > fou= > nd using Genealogy Bank in 1900. > > 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 > > Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight > f= > or the kid. > > Sam Clements > > ---- "Joel S. Berson" wrote:=20 > > I am led to wonder whether there is any=20 > > connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in=20 > > one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in=20 > > baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one=20 > > other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) > >=20 > > Joel > >=20 > > At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote= > : > > > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in=20 > > > one fight in New York than th=3D > > > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other=20 > > > outlandish place where finish =3D > > > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the=20 > > > best haymaker in the puglistic m=3D > > > > eadow." > > > > > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's=20 > > > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire=3D > > > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > > > > > >I would have thought much older for=20 > > >haymaker=3Dpunch, if not necessarily=20 > > >boxer=3Dhaymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a=20 > > >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed=20 > > >the =C2=93Haymakers=C2=94 before 1867, possibly in=20 > > >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers,=20 > > >but a number of recent texts about them present=20 > > >the nickname as big city slur on them being from=20 > > >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its=20 > > >brush industry, not for being a farm=20 > > >community). Some do attribute it to their=20 > > >punches. Neither seem to present sources to=20 > > >back their claims (at least on a cursory review=20 > > >of them just now). Over time it may have meant=20 > > >both things with respect to the team, and it=20 > > >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > > > > > >=C2=93When the news of the first innings was=20 > > >received, showing a tally of 6 for the =C2=91Mowers=C2=92=20 > > >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd=20 > > >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the=20 > > >=C2=91reconstructed=C2=92 nine meant business, and the=20 > > >chances of their success looked decidedly=20 > > >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in,=20 > > >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing=20 > > >their lead, hope became certainty, and there=20 > > >were plenty of =C2=91Haymakers=C2=92 to be found, the=20 > > >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and=20 > > >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.=C2= > =94 > > >=C2=93The National Game; =C2=91Blood will Tell=C2=92=C2=97The=20 > > >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals=C2=97The =C2=91Blue Above=20 > > >the Green.=C2=92=C2=94 Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > > > > > >Chris Philippo > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 17 19:55:47 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his identity goes back to 1795 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this meme used for first? Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 20:12:20 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:12:20 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171955.s7HBiRqV005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by different people. Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = > Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = > line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = > identity goes back to 1795 = > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = > meme used for first?=20 > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = > about Sh=3D > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = > Shakespea=3D > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= > t+by+an=3D > > = > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= > DA&ved=3D > > = > =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= > e%20sam=3D > > e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > ________________=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Garson:=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D > >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D > >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= > > >> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = > person=3D0A=3D > > of the same name.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but > by=3D0A=3D= > > > another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = > has=3D0A=3D > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = > Israel=3D0A=3D > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = > following=3D0A=3D > > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = > Number=3D0A=3D > > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = > Page=3D0A=3D > > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = > Books=3D0A=3D > > Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > v=3D3Ds=3D > > nippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was > not=3D0A=3D= > > > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= > > > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = > of=3D0A=3D > > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = > careful=3D0A=3D > > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = > that=3D0A=3D > > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the > same=3D0A=3D= > > > name!=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = > the=3D0A=3D > > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = > 4,=3D0A=3D > > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link > [/ref]=3D0A=3D= > > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= > 22#v=3D > > =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = > plays=3D0A=3D > > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = > of=3D0A=3D > > the same name?=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = > humorous=3D0A=3D > > remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume > 1,=3D0A=3D= > > > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = > date=3D0A=3D > > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = > 30,=3D0A=3D > > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D > > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = > link=3D0A=3D > > [/ref]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > v=3D3Ds=3D > > nippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = > among=3D0A=3D > > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = > Poems,=3D0A=3D > > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = > subject=3D0A=3D > > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= > > > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but > by=3D0A=3D= > > > another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = > Homers=3D0A=3D > > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = > prompted=3D0A=3D > > the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = > Article=3D0A=3D > > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), > Start=3D0A=3D= > > > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published > by=3D0A=3D= > > > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= > =3D3Dsn=3D > > ippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D > > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D > > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = > same=3D0A=3D > > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived > a=3D0A=3D= > > > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= > > > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = > single=3D0A=3D > > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and > many=3D0A=3D= > > > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = > Odyssey,=3D0A=3D > > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = > nor=3D0A=3D > > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = > III.=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Garson=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 17 20:21:14 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:21:14 -0700 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408172012.s7HBiRtt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled quotation was first used for. BB On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Sun Aug 17 20:49:59 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:49:59 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171949.s7HBiRpp005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 3:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term > for a farmer or rustic. I realize that, I just wasn’t sure if the nickname for the team was a slur on the players supposedly being hayseeds (as has been claimed) or due to their reputation for brawling (as has also been claimed), or some other reason like the need for mowing the green on which they played. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Sun Aug 17 21:04:00 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:04:00 +0000 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While I don't know how the quotation actually came into being, it makes far more sense for Homer, which essentially just denotes the person who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey (if, indeed, one person composed both). (Of course, both epics arose out of an oral tradition, but it seems a fair assumption, if no more than that, that in each case a single person played a key role in assembling the text into something resembling what we know today.) We know a relatively large amount about every other named famous poet, including Shakespeare. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled quotation was first used for. BB On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 23:02:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:02:17 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption Message-ID: "Funny _Baby Horse_" Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:23:13 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:23:13 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL Must be treu: even Homer nods. (Somewhat) seriously, though, on Kripke's influential causal-historical theory of how proper names mean, it is in fact non-trivially the case that we could discover that, say, the plays attributed to Shakespeare were not written by him but by someone else with the same name. I can go into the details in the unlikely event that anyone asks for them. LH > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:28:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:28:37 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. "foal", I'd wager). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 00:25:49 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:25:49 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. Thanks, Beth Young ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work in groups. This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real-world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the greatest language resources in the English language. You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original-scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html ***Choose which word(s) to look for: You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you probably should NOT search for * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out where else to look.) Instead, try looking for * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: http://public.oed.com/appeals/ To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for "antedating"): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l ***Decide where/how to search: Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation should be the end of your search window. The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the database you're searching. Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that there is--this is just an example.) Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in texts you're reading for another purpose. Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. Additional information on search strategies: http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search-for-an-origin (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer words) http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of-google.html (google tips and tricks) Some online databases to search in: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good-sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 a list of sites for researching etymology; https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant list of publicly accessible full-text databases Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure out which avenues are probably not worth exploring UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of some old local Florida papers). Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full content the library provides either through subscription or Open Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search them!) Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers 1600-1950) If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to access full-text online archives of past issues. ***Know what evidence you need: The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it doesn't count. * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in 1898 doesn't count. * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam Browne," that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression in use. What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a particular date. In particular, you need all the information required by the OED submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is being used: http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ Also see the FAQs about contributions here: http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute ***Take good notes! Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high-quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who tried > to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't appeal to > every student, but I figured that there might be one or two who would enjoy > the challenge. I thought that the activity would help students better > understand what's involved in this sort of research, and I wanted to give > them an opportunity to do research with potential real-world application. > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better students > chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they tended to > provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary ("Merriam-Webster > says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from the OED itself ("OED says > it means X but I think it really means Y") or a 21st century magazine > article that makes claims about how a word originated centuries earlier. > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to antedate > but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the easiest words would > be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a year ago. > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my classes > are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this activity > (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic information, such as > what counts as evidence and how one might go about antedating a word. > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have you > tried this sort of activity with students? > > thanks, > > Beth Young > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 00:47:43 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:47:43 -0400 Subject: QOTD Message-ID: Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 00:56:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:56:12 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As long as we're sure he didn't mean "Free Willy". LH On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:39:47 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:39:47 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 03:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term >for a farmer or rustic. And the other team was called the "Mowers". Joel >JL > > >On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > > Subject: Re: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=3Dpunch, the "punch" use can be > > fou= > > nd using Genealogy Bank in 1900. > > > > 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 > > > > Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight > > f= > > or the kid. > > > > Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:44:01 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:44:01 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. Joel >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:49:40 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:49:40 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard P. Martin writes a bit about the transition from oral to written of "Homer"s works. "Introduction," in Homer, The Odyssey (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004), xxviii, xxix, xxx. I don't remember what his sources are. Joel At 8/17/2014 05:04 PM, Baker, John wrote: >While I don't know how the quotation actually came into being, it >makes far more sense for Homer, which essentially just denotes the >person who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey (if, indeed, one >person composed both). (Of course, both epics arose out of an oral >tradition, but it seems a fair assumption, if no more than that, >that in each case a single person played a key role in assembling >the text into something resembling what we know today.) We know a >relatively large amount about every other named famous poet, >including Shakespeare. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:21 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > >Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled >quotation was first used for. BB > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > > different people. > > > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = > >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = > >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = > >> identity goes back to 1795 = > >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = > >> meme used for first?=20 > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Formerly of Seattle, WA > >> > >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > >> > >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >> > >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D > >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = > >> about Sh=3D > >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = > >> Shakespea=3D > >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D > >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= > >> t+by+an=3D > >>> = > >> > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= > >> DA&ved=3D > >>> = > >> > =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= > >> e%20sam=3D > >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D > >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> ________________=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D > >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D > >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D > >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = > >> person=3D0A=3D > >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = > >> has=3D0A=3D > >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = > >> Israel=3D0A=3D > >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = > >> following=3D0A=3D > >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = > >> Number=3D0A=3D > >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = > >> Page=3D0A=3D > >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = > >> Books=3D0A=3D > >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > >> v=3D3Ds=3D > >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was > >> not=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = > >> of=3D0A=3D > >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = > >> careful=3D0A=3D > >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = > >> that=3D0A=3D > >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the > >> same=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> name!=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = > >> the=3D0A=3D > >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = > >> 4,=3D0A=3D > >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link > >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= > >> 22#v=3D > >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = > >> plays=3D0A=3D > >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = > >> of=3D0A=3D > >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = > >> humorous=3D0A=3D > >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume > >> 1,=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = > >> date=3D0A=3D > >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = > >> 30,=3D0A=3D > >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D > >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = > >> link=3D0A=3D > >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > >> v=3D3Ds=3D > >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = > >> among=3D0A=3D > >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = > >> Poems,=3D0A=3D > >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = > >> subject=3D0A=3D > >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = > >> Homers=3D0A=3D > >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = > >> prompted=3D0A=3D > >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = > >> Article=3D0A=3D > >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), > >> Start=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= > >> =3D3Dsn=3D > >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D > >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D > >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = > >> same=3D0A=3D > >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived > >> a=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = > >> single=3D0A=3D > >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and > >> many=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = > >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D > >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = > >> nor=3D0A=3D > >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = > >> III.=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Garson=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Mon Aug 18 03:57:03 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:57:03 -0700 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408172328.s7HKhnON005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And colt is gender-specific - not sure whether that was evident in the video. On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >> =20 >> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 06:28:56 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 02:28:56 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408172328.s7HKhnOR005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line dictionary: "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." Ey wa-la. Youneverknow. On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > >=20 > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 06:30:44 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 02:30:44 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408180047.s7HKhnYN005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." The closest *what* to free will? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 10:36:56 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 18:36:56 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408180631.s7I40RCZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: <> WB: Is he joking? JB: <> WB: Is the silent? Do they call him [yawn] for a reason? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Aug 18 11:06:17 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 07:06:17 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <91907.98581.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon Gnarr was born Jón Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his middle name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best Party, a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: QOTD At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. Joel >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Aug 18 11:19:21 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:19:21 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Beth. Looks good. Let us know how it goes. Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Beth Young Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] an antedating "how to"? Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. Thanks, Beth Young ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work in groups. This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real-world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the greatest language resources in the English language. You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original-scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html ***Choose which word(s) to look for: You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you probably should NOT search for * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out where else to look.) Instead, try looking for * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: http://public.oed.com/appeals/ To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for "antedating"): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l ***Decide where/how to search: Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation should be the end of your search window. The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the database you're searching. Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that there is--this is just an example.) Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in texts you're reading for another purpose. Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. Additional information on search strategies: http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search-for-an-origin (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer words) http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of-google.html (google tips and tricks) Some online databases to search in: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good-sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 a list of sites for researching etymology; https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant list of publicly accessible full-text databases Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure out which avenues are probably not worth exploring UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of some old local Florida papers). Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full content the library provides either through subscription or Open Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search them!) Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers 1600-1950) If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to access full-text online archives of past issues. ***Know what evidence you need: The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it doesn't count. * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in 1898 doesn't count. * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam Browne," that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression in use. What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a particular date. In particular, you need all the information required by the OED submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is being used: http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ Also see the FAQs about contributions here: http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute ***Take good notes! Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high-quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who tried > to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't appeal to > every student, but I figured that there might be one or two who would enjoy > the challenge. I thought that the activity would help students better > understand what's involved in this sort of research, and I wanted to give > them an opportunity to do research with potential real-world application. > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better students > chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they tended to > provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary ("Merriam-Webster > says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from the OED itself ("OED says > it means X but I think it really means Y") or a 21st century magazine > article that makes claims about how a word originated centuries earlier. > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to antedate > but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the easiest words would > be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a year ago. > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my classes > are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this activity > (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic information, such as > what counts as evidence and how one might go about antedating a word. > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have you > tried this sort of activity with students? > > thanks, > > Beth Young > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:11:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:11:30 -0400 Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' Message-ID: St. Louis police spokesman on CNN: "Comments were made that caused the situation to uprise." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 12:15:36 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:15:36 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <02b801cfbad4$6f2b3750$4d81a5f0$@net> Message-ID: Apparently it still is talk like a pirate day ... gnarr. One angry Gunnar, I suppose. He should be exiled to one of the other Scandinavian countries, where he would have free choice. Joel At 8/18/2014 07:06 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: >Jon Gnarr was born Jón Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his middle >name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the >patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. > >He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best Party, >a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government >sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Joel S. Berson >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: QOTD > >At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > >Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. > >Joel > > > >JL > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:18:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:18:33 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408181106.s7IA2Eu5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And if you can believe Book TV, he was a big success in office. We were in Iceland during his tenure. The opinion we heard was that Gnarr was just what the place needed after being bankrupted (they say) by the self-styled "Investment Vikings." Go figure. Anyway, his name is Jon. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: QOTD > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon Gnarr was born J=F3n Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his = > middle > name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the > patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. > > He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best = > Party, > a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government > sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office.=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf = > Of > Joel S. Berson > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QOTD > > At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > > Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. > > Joel > > > >JL > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:22:52 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:22:52 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408180629.s7I40RCB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, like "cygnet," may have always been.) Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for > kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question > is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line > dictionary: > > "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." > > Ey wa-la. > > Youneverknow. > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > > >=20 > > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > > > LH > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 18 12:31:15 2014 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:31:15 -0400 Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' In-Reply-To: <201408181211.s7IBMoEh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How long before we get spellings like, "I wanted to uprise you of something that occurred"? Neal On 8/18/2014 8:11 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > St. Louis police spokesman on CNN: > > "Comments were made that caused the situation to uprise." > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 14:54:21 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:54:21 -0400 Subject: "make love" Message-ID: Some years ago it was observed here that OED had a huge gap between the "clearly innocent" meaning of "make love" and the clearly euphemistic meaning in 1950. Since then, the entry has been revised to include three earlier exx. The one from Orwell, 1934 ("Why is master always so angry with me when he has made love to me?") seems very plausible, though nowadays the preposition "with" is probably preferred to "to." I'm skeptical of the two earlier exx., however: 1927 ...Jimmy embraces Margie LaMont and goes through with her the business of making love to her by lying on top of her on a couch, each embracing the other. This is decribes a scene in a play by Mae West. It is hard to believe that the on-stage action portrayed sexual intercourse. 1929 ...Besides all the big times we had many small ways of making love and we tried putting thoughts in the other one's head while we were in different rooms. This too seems very ambiguous. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 14:56:39 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:56:39 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <3d1b4b2f246e4fb5a6357ceb8c637ab8@UGUNHPTO.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE >From Google Books: Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: Neale Publishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had a "million-dollar wound," which meant a long furlough with no danger to life or limb." http://books.google.com/books?id=-7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA549&dq=%22million+dollar+wound%22#v=onepage&q=%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=false > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call > that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets > you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:26:52 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:26:52 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other > than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, > like "cygnet," may have always been.) > > Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. > > JL except on menus, oddly LH > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for >> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question >> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line >> dictionary: >> >> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." >> >> Ey wa-la. >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >>>> =20 >>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? >>> >>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = >>> "foal", I'd wager). =20 >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:33:21 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:33:21 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <1707A840-EFE9-4C1A-851E-4F8237AE9450@yale.edu> Message-ID: JL: "Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred." LH: "except on menus, oddly" I dare say restaurateurs expect consumer resistance to eating "baby" animals -- hence "veal" instead of "baby cow". GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other > > than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, > > like "cygnet," may have always been.) > > > > Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. > > > > JL > > except on menus, oddly > > LH > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: Re: YouTube caption > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature > for > >> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my > question > >> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line > >> dictionary: > >> > >> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." > >> > >> Ey wa-la. > >> > >> Youneverknow. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn > >> wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Laurence Horn > >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption > >>> > >>> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>> > >>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" > >>>> =20 > >>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > >>> > >>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > >>> "foal", I'd wager). =20 > >>> > >>> LH > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 18 15:38:09 2014 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:38:09 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408181526.s7IF0nEt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A few Google Ngram searches show that specific names such as "cygnet" are trending down somewhat, and "baby" names are trending slightly up, but still in the minority. Neal cygnet ~ baby swan https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cygnet_INF%2C+baby+swan_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Ccygnet_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bcygnets%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bcygnet%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20swan_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20swans%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20swan%3B%2Cc0 duckling ~ baby duck https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=duckling_INF%2Cbaby+duck_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cduckling_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bducklings%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bduckling%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20duck_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20ducks%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20duck%3B%2Cc0 gosling ~ baby goose https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gosling_INF%2Cbaby+goose_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cgosling_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bgoslings%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bgosling%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20goose_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20geese%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20goose%3B%2Cc0 colt/foal/filly ~ baby horse https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=foal_NOUN_INF%2C+filly_INF%2Ccolt_INF%2Cbaby+horse_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cfoal_NOUN_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfoal_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfoals_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfoaling_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cfilly_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfilly%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfillies%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Ccolt_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bcolt%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bcolts%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20horse_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20horse%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20horses%3B%2Cc0 On 8/18/2014 11:26 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts = > other >> than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of = > the, >> like "cygnet," may have always been.) >> =20 >> Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. >> =20 >> JL > except on menus, oddly > > LH >> =20 >> =20 >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>> =20 >>> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >>> =20 >>> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and = > mature for >>> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my = > question >>> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an = > on-line >>> dictionary: >>> =20 >>> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." >>> =20 >>> Ey wa-la. >>> =20 >>> Youneverknow. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn = > >>> wrote: >>> =20 >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >>>> =20 >>>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> =20 >>>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >>>>> =3D20 >>>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? >>>> =20 >>>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > =3D >>>> "foal", I'd wager). =3D20 >>>> =20 >>>> LH >>>> =20 >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> -- >>> -Wilson >>> ----- >>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to >>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>> -Mark Twain >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:39:40 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:39:40 -0400 Subject: "make love" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Some years ago it was observed here Yup; since then it's even been written up. > that OED had a huge gap between the > "clearly innocent" meaning of "make love" and the clearly euphemistic > meaning in 1950. My favorite OED cite for the latter is the translation from Queneau, for all the presuppositions it builds in: 1967 B. Wright tr. R. Queneau Between Blue & Blue xiv. 151 When you make love on a bunk,..the man has to bump his head. > > Since then, the entry has been revised to include three earlier exx. The > one from Orwell, 1934 ("Why is master always so angry with me when he has > made love to me?") seems very plausible and a result of mental translation from the Burmese? > , though nowadays the preposition > "with" is probably preferred to "to." > > I'm skeptical of the two earlier exx., however: > > 1927 ...Jimmy embraces Margie LaMont and goes through with her the business > of making love to her by lying on top of her on a couch, each embracing the > other. > > This is decribes a scene in a play by Mae West. It is hard to believe that > the on-stage action portrayed sexual intercourse. > > 1929 ...Besides all the big times we had many small ways of making love and > we tried putting thoughts in the other one's head while we were in > different rooms. > > This too seems very ambiguous. True enough, sort of like the earlier examples of "hook up" (although not exhibiting the same ambiguity) before the euphemistic sense began to push out the ordinary metaphorical one. Note also http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/12/making-love.html, which accepts OED's verdict on this example; I agree with JL that it's misplaced. (Although it could be argued that by 1927 "make love" already involved a slippery slope, as it were.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:48:48 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:48:48 -0400 Subject: Rogeting Message-ID: it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article (Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 15:55:41 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:55:41 -0400 Subject: minus out = 'disregard' Message-ID: Legal commentator: "I am not going to minus out emotional reaction." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 16:03:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:03:17 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181456.s7IDWKv7005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright date of the copy I see is 1904. He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a "literary" term isn't in HDAS). More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much less before 1904). Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the former. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > From Google Books: > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: Neale > Pu= > blishing Co. 1905 p 549 > "In the parlance of our camp, I had a "million-dollar wound," which meant > a= > long furlough with no danger to life or limb." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D-7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22million+= > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfalse > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >=20 > > OED: Feb., 1945. > >=20 > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call > > that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets > > you out of the foxholes for a bit." > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 16:06:19 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:06:19 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Good article! Some specific comments . . . > you probably should NOT search for > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > * Extremely new entries. Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > "antedating"): > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: http://www.barrypopik.com/ You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. This article: http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition would drive the point home in a memorable way. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Beth Young > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beth Young > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a > how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put > together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of > it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. > > Thanks, > > Beth Young > > > ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** > > > Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of > you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work > in groups. > > This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing > that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in > lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- > world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the > greatest language resources in the English language. > > You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! > Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur > genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with > Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: > http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- > scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html > > > > ***Choose which word(s) to look for: > > You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words > will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the > evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED > lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you > probably should NOT search for > > * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates > from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in > an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying > around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished > updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently > searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're > planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably > won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that > it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources > are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out > where else to look.) > > Instead, try looking for > > * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > Internet) > * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) > * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: > http://public.oed.com/appeals/ > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > "antedating"): > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > > > ***Decide where/how to search: > > Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the > word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation > should be the end of your search window. > > The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. > For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, > you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was > invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the > database you're searching. > > Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. > For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is > an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that > there is--this is just an example.) > > Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was > particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with > quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, > "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once > been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be > entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in > texts you're reading for another purpose. > > Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already > searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch > magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch > magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. > > Additional information on search strategies: > > http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- > for-an-origin > (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer > words) > > http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- > google.html > (google tips and tricks) > > > Some online databases to search in: > > http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- > sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 > a list of sites for researching etymology; > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant > list of publicly accessible full-text databases > > Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure > out which avenues are probably not worth exploring > > UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: > http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian > recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives > (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has > searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of > some old local Florida papers). > Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full > content the library provides either through subscription or Open > Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical > Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but > maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search > them!) > > Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left > toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful > include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; > Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections > Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida > Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino > Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth > Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, > Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. > > Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., > ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, > NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers > 1600-1950) > > If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to > access full-text online archives of past issues. > > > > ***Know what evidence you need: > > The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word > was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely > dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable > facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) > > Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: > > * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary > says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative > quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but > unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, > verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it > doesn't count. > > * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you > think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, > but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers > haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. > > * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run > articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But > the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you > need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the > earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in > 1898 doesn't count. > > * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words > "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam > Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam > Browne," > that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who > attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking > for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression > in use. > > What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original > print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a > particular date. > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > being used: > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > > The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is > more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. > > For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: > http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ > > Also see the FAQs about contributions here: > http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute > > > > ***Take good notes! > > Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, > and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- > quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. > > > > > > Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie > Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George > Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the > ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > > > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who > > tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't > > appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two > > who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help > > students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, > > and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with > potential real-world application. > > > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better > > students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they > > tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary > > ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from > > the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") > > or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word > originated centuries earlier. > > > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to > > antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the > easiest > > words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a > year ago. > > > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my > > classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this > > activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic > > information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go > about antedating a word. > > > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have > > you tried this sort of activity with students? > > > > thanks, > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 16:44:01 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:44:01 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <51940BD6-6010-473D-A041-E1BF5BB83DCC@yale.edu> Message-ID: Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help thinking that this is an error for "rogering". P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. Joel At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! > >http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article > >(Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) > >LH >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 16:54:05 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:54:05 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I see he uses the phrase in quote marks -- possibly indicating that he is repeating it from someplace he heard or read it?? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > date of the copy I see is 1904. > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > less before 1904). > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > former. > > JL > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > --------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > From Google Books: > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > Neale Pu= blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a= long furlough with no > danger > > to life or limb." > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D- > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22mil > > lion+= > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfal > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >--------------- > > > -------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >-- > > > -------- > > >=20 > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > >=20 > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > but > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > >=20 > > > JL > > >=20 > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > >truth." > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 16:58:40 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:58:40 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <631244.83196.bm@smtp120.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help thinking that this is an error for "rogering". > > P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. > > Joel We'd be even more suspicious if this appeared as a new sequence of eschatological novels and/or movies focused on the adventures of the Antichrist-led remnant after The Rapture has transported all of the True Believers: the Sinister Buttocks Series. LH > > At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >> >> http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article >> >> (Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) >> >> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 17:01:17 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:01:17 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE "Million dollar" represents a large amount of money to me in a way that other amounts don't. A "billion dollar wound" would be ridiculous, and a "thousand dollar wound" -- so what. Until not so long ago in American history/culture, it would have been the amount of money that, if you had it, you were set for life. The go-to word for rich person for a long time was Millionaire, but maybe now it doesn't convey it well. What I'm getting at is, does "million dollar" make sense ca. 1945 in a way that it wouldn't in 1905, or even more so in 1865? Would a million dollars have been too large an amount to make a sensible expression back then? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > date of the copy I see is 1904. > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > less before 1904). > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > former. > > JL > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > --------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > From Google Books: > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > Neale Pu= blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a= long furlough with no > danger > > to life or limb." > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D- > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22mil > > lion+= > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfal > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >--------------- > > > -------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >-- > > > -------- > > >=20 > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > >=20 > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > but > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > >=20 > > > JL > > >=20 > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > >truth." > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:17:03 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:17:03 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408181644.s7IF0nqx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >> >>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article > > Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help > thinking that this is an error for "rogering". > > P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that > plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful > personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." I wrote about some other cases of ham-handed thesaurusizing a couple of years ago in a piece for Lapham's Quarterly, "Word for Word": http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/reconsiderations/word-for-word.php?page=all And here's some more on spammy synonymy: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4584 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:28:08 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:28:08 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181701.s7IGqG9P005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: He says it was in the "parlance of his camp." That tells me the quote marks are meant to endorse actual Civil War usage. In simple purchasing power, a million in 1865 would be worth 14.8 million today - or 1.11 mill in 1944 (according to http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/relativevalue.php). In other words, far more than plenty, but not a truly astronomical amount. But it's all subjective. "Million-dollar wound" might have been preferred to "thousand-dollar" because "million" was just as familiar a word and a much bigger amount. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > "Million dollar" represents a large amount of money to me in a way that > oth= > er amounts don't. A "billion dollar wound" would be ridiculous, and a > "tho= > usand dollar wound" -- so what. Until not so long ago in American > history/= > culture, it would have been the amount of money that, if you had it, you > we= > re set for life. > > The go-to word for rich person for a long time was Millionaire, but maybe > n= > ow it doesn't convey it well. > > What I'm getting at is, does "million dollar" make sense ca. 1945 in a way > = > that it wouldn't in 1905, or even more so in 1865? Would a million > dollars= > have been too large an amount to make a sensible expression back then? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >=20 > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > > date of the copy I see is 1904. > >=20 > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > >=20 > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > > less before 1904). > >=20 > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > >=20 > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > > former. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > --------- > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > From Google Books: > > > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > > Neale Pu=3D blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a=3D long furlough with no > > danger > > > to life or limb." > > > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3D- > > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3D3DPA549&dq=3D3D%22mil > > > lion+=3D > > > > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3D3D= > fal > > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > >=3D20 > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > >--------------- > > > > -------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > >-- > > > > -------- > > > >=3D20 > > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > > >=3D20 > > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > > but > > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > > >=3D20 > > > > JL > > > >=3D20 > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > >truth." > > > >=3D20 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:37:31 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:37:31 -0700 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408181717.s7IGqGEj005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: Rogeting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >>> >>> http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article >> >> Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help >> thinking that this is an error for "rogering". >> >> P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that >> plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful >> personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. > > The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as > "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time > with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." > > I wrote about some other cases of ham-handed thesaurusizing a couple > of years ago in a piece for Lapham's Quarterly, "Word for Word": > > http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/reconsiderations/word-for-word.php?page=all > > And here's some more on spammy synonymy: > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4584 and recently on my blog, with a Zippy the Pinhead cartoon: http://arnoldzwicky.org/2014/08/05/thesaurus-play/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:41:35 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:41:35 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408181218.s7IBMoHX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JB: <> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 17:44:00 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:44:00 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > being used: > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA compared to simply submitting citations to the ADS-L (for example, requiring pronunciation data for all submissions seems overkill). I used to have an email address at the OED that I would cc ADS-l submissions to, but things started bouncing back from there (about the time they posted the above form). I have always believed that someone (Jesse?) would scrape stuff from the list and make sure that it got into the OED's files. I don't believe that Jesse works for the OED any longer (is that true?) -- do submissions posted here get considered for the OED? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:58:04 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:58:04 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408171301.s7HBiR7L005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass more > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" or > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any ethnic > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most likely > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience of > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > JL > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 18:17:04 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:17:04 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF582@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> >> In particular, you need all the information required by the OED >> submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is >> being used: >> http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ >> > > Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA Hey, I've never encountered that acronym before. Useful, too--it eloquently captures the feeling I have when my felafel falls apart. LH > compared to simply submitting citations to the ADS-L (for example, requiring pronunciation data for all submissions seems overkill). > > I used to have an email address at the OED that I would cc ADS-l submissions to, but things started bouncing back from there (about the time they posted the above form). > > I have always believed that someone (Jesse?) would scrape stuff from the list and make sure that it got into the OED's files. I don't believe that Jesse works for the OED any longer (is that true?) -- do submissions posted here get considered for the OED? > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 18:30:03 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:30:03 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181817.s7IGqGiD005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > >> Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA > > Hey, I've never encountered that acronym before. Useful, too--it = > eloquently captures the feeling I have when my felafel falls apart. It's come up here a few times over the years, including in James Landau's onetime sig line, "The so-called subjunctive mood in English is such a PITA that it should be served with falafel." --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 18 18:40:56 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:40:56 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF484@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: A Farewell to Anuses, indeed. I've done a great deal of searching in Readex's America's Historical Newspapers & Gale's 19th C American Newspapers, as well as Proquest's historical files, and my impression is, that a search of these files will turn up about 1/3 of what is there to be found. I see a name, wonder "what else has that guy done", and search for him; whatever comes up often does not include the item that I started from. This is an everyday experience. As regards this antedating assignment: the students should also avoid looking to antedate an unusual sense of a common word, unless there is some second word to throw in that will eliminate most appearances of the common senses. I pointed out off-list to Beth that the approach I suggested -- searching for some phrase used as preamble to a word the writer thought new and strange, for instance, "as they say in Brooklyn", may turn up a variety of words to be checked in the OED; the opposite of starting with the OED and picking a word to try to antedate. GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Good article! > > Some specific comments . . . > > > you probably should NOT search for > > > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may > contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in > common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > > > * Extremely new entries. > Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older > (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > > "antedating"): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: > http://www.barrypopik.com/ > > > You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing > projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or > so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not > from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, > Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably > difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to > successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may > be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if > only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the > word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd > guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is > not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. > > This article: > > http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition > would drive the point home in a memorable way. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Beth Young > > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Beth Young > > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a > > how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put > > together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of > > it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** > > > > > > Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of > > you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work > > in groups. > > > > This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing > > that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in > > lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- > > world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the > > greatest language resources in the English language. > > > > You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! > > Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur > > genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with > > Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: > > http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- > > scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html > > > > > > > > ***Choose which word(s) to look for: > > > > You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words > > will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the > > evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED > > lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you > > probably should NOT search for > > > > * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates > > from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in > > an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying > > around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) > > > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > > > * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished > > updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently > > searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're > > planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably > > won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that > > it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources > > are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out > > where else to look.) > > > > Instead, try looking for > > > > * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 > > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > > Internet) > > * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) > > * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: > > http://public.oed.com/appeals/ > > > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > > "antedating"): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > > > > > > > ***Decide where/how to search: > > > > Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the > > word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation > > should be the end of your search window. > > > > The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. > > For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, > > you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was > > invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the > > database you're searching. > > > > Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. > > For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is > > an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that > > there is--this is just an example.) > > > > Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was > > particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with > > quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, > > "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once > > been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be > > entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in > > texts you're reading for another purpose. > > > > Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already > > searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch > > magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch > > magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. > > > > Additional information on search strategies: > > > > http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- > > for-an-origin > > (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer > > words) > > > > http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- > > google.html > > (google tips and tricks) > > > > > > Some online databases to search in: > > > > http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- > > sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 > > a list of sites for researching etymology; > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant > > list of publicly accessible full-text databases > > > > Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure > > out which avenues are probably not worth exploring > > > > UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: > > http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian > > recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives > > (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has > > searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of > > some old local Florida papers). > > Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( > > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full > > content the library provides either through subscription or Open > > Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical > > Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but > > maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search > > them!) > > > > Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left > > toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful > > include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; > > Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections > > Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida > > Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino > > Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth > > Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, > > Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. > > > > Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., > > ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, > > NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers > > 1600-1950) > > > > If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to > > access full-text online archives of past issues. > > > > > > > > ***Know what evidence you need: > > > > The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word > > was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely > > dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable > > facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: > > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) > > > > Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: > > > > * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary > > says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative > > quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but > > unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, > > verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it > > doesn't count. > > > > * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you > > think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, > > but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers > > haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. > > > > * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run > > articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But > > the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you > > need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the > > earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in > > 1898 doesn't count. > > > > * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words > > "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam > > Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam > > Browne," > > that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who > > attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking > > for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression > > in use. > > > > What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original > > print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a > > particular date. > > > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > > being used: > > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > > > > The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is > > more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. > > > > For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: > > http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ > > > > Also see the FAQs about contributions here: > > http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute > > > > > > > > ***Take good notes! > > > > Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, > > and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- > > quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie > > Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George > > Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the > > ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. > > > > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > > > > > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > > > > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who > > > tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't > > > appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two > > > who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help > > > students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, > > > and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with > > potential real-world application. > > > > > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better > > > students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they > > > tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary > > > ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from > > > the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") > > > or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word > > originated centuries earlier. > > > > > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to > > > antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the > > easiest > > > words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a > > year ago. > > > > > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my > > > classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this > > > activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic > > > information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go > > about antedating a word. > > > > > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have > > > you tried this sort of activity with students? > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 18:41:18 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:41:18 +0300 Subject: an antedating "how to"? Message-ID: Good stuff, one correction: > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) Perhaps you meant before the World Wide Web, which was invented in 1989. The internet goes back longer, as evidenced by Usenet which goes back to around 1981. Usenet is a rich source of antedatings (especially and unsurprisingly for internet jargon) and searchable via Google Groups. http://groups.google.com/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 19:01:21 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:01:21 -0400 Subject: BuzzFeed deletes thousands of old articles Message-ID: News item illustrating one of the problems encountered by researchers attempting to trace the provenance of words and phrases in the electronic age. Title: Is BuzzFeed’s deletion of articles an ethical lapse or the growing pains of a new-media entity? Author: Mathew Ingram Timestamp: Aug. 15, 2014 - 11:21 AM PDT http://bit.ly/1kHolYR http://gigaom.com/2014/08/15/is-buzzfeeds-deletion-of-articles-an-ethical-lapse-or-the-growing-pains-of-a-new-media-entity/ [Begin excerpt] Summary: BuzzFeed has come under fire for deleting thousands of old articles, which founder Jonah Peretti says didn’t live up to the kinds of standards the site wants to adhere to now. Should the company be criticized for doing this because it’s a journalistic no-no, or congratulated for evolving? [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 19:08:55 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:08:55 -0400 Subject: G[ood]'day Message-ID: Do Australian employees of retail business say to departing customers "Have a g'day"? I think I heard the 20-something son of the Korean owners of my laundry/dry cleaner's establishment pronounce it that way today, but my ears aren't as young as they once were. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 19:47:43 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:47:43 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408181758.s7IGqGYV005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The police are using illegal weapondry." JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass > more > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" > or > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > ethnic > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > likely > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience > of > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > > > ----- > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 20:30:53 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:30:53 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My apologies. I can't say why I missed this. Joel At 8/18/2014 01:17 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as >"disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time >with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Mon Aug 18 20:43:03 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:43:03 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408182030.s7IJrBMP005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 01:17 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > “Roget-ing” is defined as "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." I’m not terribly surprised at the above development. Some universities encourage gibberish, plagiarism, the falsification of citations, etc., even providing awards and/or promotions to faculty and administrators who engage in it or turn a blind eye to it. Likewise, the U.S. Dep’t of Education doesn’t seem to care about plagiarism nor do accrediting agencies. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 20:48:04 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:48:04 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: >JB: <> >WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the equally-unreadable Fraktur.) Joel P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", and "brr"? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 00:07:26 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 20:07:26 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: <201408181841.s7IIVZUh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for catching that, Hugo! I did mean the WWW (figuring that OED lexicographers weren't doing archival research via usenet, though that might be wrong) but as my brain was thinking WWW, my fingers were typing "Internet." Beth On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Good stuff, one correction: > > > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > Internet) > > Perhaps you meant before the World Wide Web, which was invented in 1989. > The internet goes back longer, as evidenced by Usenet which goes back to > around 1981. Usenet is a rich source of antedatings (especially and > unsurprisingly for internet jargon) and searchable via Google Groups. > http://groups.google.com/ > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 01:10:53 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 18:10:53 -0700 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta Message-ID: Kurobuta (< Japanese: 黒豚, lit. black pig) is well established among foodies as Berkshire pork. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurobuta) says "Kagoshima Kurobuta" is trademarked, but it wouldn't surprise me to find something at a restaurant labelled as "kurobuta/kurabuta" that isn't from Kagoshima. The earliest hit I see on Google books for "kurobuta" is from around 1986 (I found one later year but it was a stamp): c. 1986: "麻布大学獣医学部研究報告" (http://bit.ly/1oVAuor) Kurabuta, a spelling probably from English progressive metaphony, gets 50K hits. The earliest two I see on Google are: 2004: "Differentiation through our genes" (http://bit.ly/XweJWY) 2005: "Kurabuta Ham Recipe" (http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/301154) Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 01:42:07 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 09:42:07 +0800 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta In-Reply-To: <201408190110.s7J13b6x005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: BB: <> WB: Looks like Regressive Graphicization of Successive Schwazifications to me. {8^()} (Possibly metaphony in a Schleicherian sense, literally.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 02:34:26 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:34:26 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408182048.s7IJrBY3005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hmm... South of the Mason-Dixon, they call me Brrr. Sesquisyllabic /r/, stress on the middle . When I recently asked if Granddaddy Brewer had been a WWI veteran, Pappy said, <> i.e. for Capital Transit in D.C. And that's my genealogy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 19 03:11:06 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:11:06 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The police are using illegal weapondry." They haven't yet used water hoses. JSB >JL > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass > > more > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" > > or > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > > ethnic > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > likely > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience > > of > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -Wilson > > > > ----- > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 04:54:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 00:54:17 -0400 Subject: "make love" In-Reply-To: <201408181454.s7IDWKuH005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > nowadays the preposition > "with" is probably preferred to "to." > I haven't come across this "make love with," yet. With any luck, I never will. If "make love to" was good enough for both Jo Stafford and Muddy Waters, it's good enough for me. ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 05:03:01 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 22:03:01 -0700 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta In-Reply-To: <201408190142.s7J13bAJ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're right, reduction is more likely. I thought I'd heard a number of tokens over the last few years, but I'll have to start paying better attention and see if they're all just schwa reductions. BB On Aug 18, 2014, at 6:42 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > BB: <> > WB: Looks like Regressive Graphicization of Successive Schwazifications to > me. {8^()} (Possibly metaphony in a Schleicherian sense, literally.) > > - ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 12:43:13 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:43:13 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An entry on this topic is now available on the QI website. The acknowledgement mentions Stephen Goranson, JL, and other discussion participants. The Plays of Shakespeare Were Not Written by Shakespeare but by Another Man of the Same Name http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/19/same-name/ Feedback welcome. Thanks, Garson On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Aug 19 16:27:03 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:27:03 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <552309.28590.bm@smtp111.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: JB: The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. The immigration official who handled your grandfather's papers can't have been Fiorello LaGuardia, then. As a young man, he worked on Ellis Island, handling immigrants who spoke Italian or Yiddish (his mother's family language). But isn't ...son or ...sohn a fairly common ending to (American) Jewish names? Are they all to be credited to hacks at Ellis Island? (And my impression, from the LaGuardia story, is that the bosses who staffed Ellis Island chose people with at least some thought to their ability to speak one or another of the languages likely to be spoken by the immigrants. They would also know by the boat's port of origin whether the passengers would mostly be speakers of Italian, or German, or Yiddish, &c. Whether a processor who spoke Finnish, or Bulgarian, or Slovenian would always be on hand when needed is maybe doubtful.) GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > JB: <> >> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... >> > > The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the > not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one > allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) > was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around > 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other > spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, > Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as > "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship > papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my > brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into > German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the > equally-unreadable Fraktur.) > > Joel > > P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", > and "brr"? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 17:07:39 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 13:07:39 -0400 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo Message-ID: http://goo.gl/hdfxut Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study finds "Than" kind of jumped out at me. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 19 17:54:20 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:54:20 +0000 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo In-Reply-To: <201408191707.s7JFUPhr019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We deal here with a blend: "twice as much as" + "two times more than". Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:07 PM, wrote: http://goo.gl/hdfxut Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study finds "Than" kind of jumped out at me. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 19:18:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:18:12 -0400 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo In-Reply-To: <201408191754.s7JHOTFD019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Seems like I've heard this construction may times on cable news. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Interesting headline in WaPo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We deal here with a blend: "twice as much as" + "two times more than". > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:07 > PM, = > wrote: > > http://goo.gl/hdfxut > Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study > finds > > "Than" kind of jumped out at me. > > VS-)= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 19:37:13 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:37:13 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X Message-ID: This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to "conventional wisdom". http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 The punchline should be revealing: > I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief that there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which of course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 19 20:06:30 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:06:30 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > "conventional wisdom". > > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > > The punchline should be revealing: > >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief that > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which of > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must have meant "epicranium". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Tue Aug 19 20:30:04 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:30:04 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t1D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A student of mine recently pointed out that 'lols/lulz' could be understood as a very close translation of Schadenfreude. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Horn" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 4:06:30 PM > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > > "conventional wisdom". > >=20 > > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > >=20 > > The punchline should be revealing: > >=20 > >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief > >> = > that > > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but > > which = > of > > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > >=20 > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I > must = > have meant "epicranium". > LH > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Tue Aug 19 20:39:25 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:39:25 -0300 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t1f019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Collins has it, with schadenfreude as a synonym. DAD On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > "conventional wisdom". >=20 > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >=20 > The punchline should be revealing: >=20 >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief = that > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = of > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >=20 "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must = have meant "epicranium". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 20:42:33 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 13:42:33 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t0f019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has citations over the past decade, plus ἐπιχαιρεκακία in English in 1621 and a mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is treated differently from use of a word.) BB On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >> "conventional wisdom". >> =20 >> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >> =20 >> The punchline should be revealing: >> =20 >>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief = > that >> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = > of >> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >> =20 > > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must = > have meant "epicranium". > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 20:52:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:52:16 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192042.s7JK5td1019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld has recently discovered it. Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = > citations over the past decade, plus > =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= > =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = > mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = > treated differently from use of a word.) BB > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = > wrote: > > >=20 > >=20 > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >=20 > >> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > >> "conventional wisdom". > >> =3D20 > >> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > >> =3D20 > >> The punchline should be revealing: > >> =3D20 > >>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D > > that > >> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > >> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = > =3D > > of > >> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > >> =3D20 > >=20 > > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D > > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = > must =3D > > have meant "epicranium". > >=20 > > LH > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 21:01:41 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:01:41 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192052.s7JK5tgb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's right, but the significance of it is that it's used in English. BB On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. > > Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld > has recently discovered it. > > Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = >> citations over the past decade, plus >> =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= >> =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = >> mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = >> treated differently from use of a word.) BB >> >> On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = >> wrote: >> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>> =20 >>>> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >>>> "conventional wisdom". >>>> =3D20 >>>> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >>>> =3D20 >>>> The punchline should be revealing: >>>> =3D20 >>>>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D >>> that >>>> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >>>> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = >> =3D >>> of >>>> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >>>> =3D20 >>> =20 >>> "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D >>> relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = >> must =3D >>> have meant "epicranium". >>> =20 >>> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 22:36:44 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:36:44 -0400 Subject: More butts In-Reply-To: <201205010351.q3U5FZGn011145@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Somewhere along the line ISTR some unreasonable doubt as to whether "butt" was ever considered vulgar. Cf.: 1941 _Springfield [Mass.] Republican_ (July 11) 12: "General Lear he missed his putt/ Parley vous/ The 110th got it in the ---- / Hinky-dinky parlez-vous." (I.e., they suffered as a result. Had the word been "ass," I doubt that it would even have been alluded to but you don't expurgate what nobody thinks is vulgar.) JL On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More butts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > "Buck-naked" > > Does the OED have "buck-_nekkid_"? That's the way that I've seen it in > print since way back when. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 22:38:28 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:38:28 -0400 Subject: Antedating determinative Message-ID: Brett Reynolds: http://english-jack.blogspot.com/2014/08/antedating-determinative.html?m=1 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 23:22:32 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 19:22:32 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408182048.s7IJrBXx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "brr" How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of "brr" was trilled, a la espanol? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Tue Aug 19 23:32:40 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:32:40 -0700 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408192323.s7JL22mj019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember it trilled with the lips, but not the tongue. Does that count? On Aug 19, 2014, at 4:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: QOTD > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> "brr" > > > How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of > "brr" was trilled, a la espanol? > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 00:34:18 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 20:34:18 -0400 Subject: More butts In-Reply-To: <201408192236.s7JL22gN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If it wasn't, you'll have to explain the appearance of Seymour Butts joke (the Simpsons), right alongside Mike Hunt (Porky's) and Phil McCracken (Drew Carey Show). VS-) PS: Of course, all three have been around much longer than their cinematic representations. On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More butts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhere along the line ISTR some unreasonable doubt as to whether "butt" > was ever considered vulgar. > > Cf.: > > 1941 _Springfield [Mass.] Republican_ (July 11) 12: "General Lear he missed > his putt/ Parley vous/ The 110th got it in the ---- / Hinky-dinky > parlez-vous." > > (I.e., they suffered as a result. Had the word been "ass," I doubt that it > would even have been alluded to but you don't expurgate what nobody thinks > is vulgar.) > > JL > > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: More butts > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Victor Steinbok > > wrote: > > > "Buck-naked" > > > > Does the OED have "buck-_nekkid_"? That's the way that I've seen it in > > print since way back when. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 01:07:49 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard some of the same things George has about the better qualifications of immigration officials. But I said it was a family tradition ... I don't know about "son" as common among Jews, but I imagine it was common among many peoples who paid more attention to patronyms than to multi-generational family names. Joel At 8/19/2014 12:27 PM, George Thompson wrote: >JB: The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the >not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one >allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) >was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. > >The immigration official who handled your grandfather's papers can't have >been Fiorello LaGuardia, then. As a young man, he worked on Ellis Island, >handling immigrants who spoke Italian or Yiddish (his mother's family >language). > >But isn't ...son or ...sohn a fairly common ending to (American) Jewish >names? Are they all to be credited to hacks at Ellis Island? (And my >impression, from the LaGuardia story, is that the bosses who staffed Ellis >Island chose people with at least some thought to their ability to speak >one or another of the languages likely to be spoken by the immigrants. >They would also know by the boat's port of origin whether the passengers >would mostly be speakers of Italian, or German, or Yiddish, &c. Whether a >processor who spoke Finnish, or Bulgarian, or Slovenian would always be on >hand when needed is maybe doubtful.) > >GAT > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > > > JB: <> > >> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... > >> > > > > The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the > > not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one > > allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) > > was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around > > 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other > > spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, > > Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as > > "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship > > papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my > > brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into > > German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the > > equally-unreadable Fraktur.) > > > > Joel > > > > P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", > > and "brr"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998.. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 01:31:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:31:44 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/19/2014 07:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > "brr" > > >How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of >"brr" was trilled, a la espanol? I can't remember the -rr of "brr" being trilled, so I won't tell you how old I am. Gargled, perhaps. Joel >-- >-Wilson >----- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 10:54:55 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:54:55 -0400 Subject: welcomely Message-ID: 'With thanks; gratefully' Attorney on CNN yesterday: "They accepted it welcomely." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Aug 20 14:17:49 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:17:49 +0000 Subject: two snits (no friz?) Message-ID: Though I would rather be discussing whether "on the friz" is plausibly linked with freeze and froze and the like (so, in effect, stopped, not working), while I wait for opinions pro or con (on or off-list), no need to get into a snit fit, but bide time by mentioning a perhaps-less-certain association of two 1930s snits. OED for snit noun2 starts: Etymology: Of uncertain origin (see quot. 19392). slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.)... A state of agitation; a fit of rage or bad temper; a tantrum, sulk. Freq. in phr. in a snit. 1939 C. Boothe Kiss Boys Good-bye ii. i. 105 'I declare, Mrs. Rand, I cried myself into a snit.' 'A snit?' 'I do deplore it, but when I'm in a snit I'm prone to bull the object of my wrath plumb in the tummy.' 1939 Sat. Rev. Lit. 23 Dec. 12/1 The membership could hardly be said to be in a snit,..as nobody in Georgia seems ever to have heard of either the word or the state of being until Miss Clare Boothe isolated and defined it. [....] Snit appears in the printed version of the play six times, in the now-familiar sense. Before the play, snit seems rare. (American Speech 1937 p. 287 notes that ?"a snit is a slice, as of an orange" in the Shenandoah Valley, but that may be unrelated.) Snit appears in a 1934 novel, The Golden Vanity (New York: William Morris), by Isabel Paterson (the libertarian). Both women, Paterson and Boothe (Luce), were active in New York politics and journalism circles; perhaps they knew of one another. This snit is not identical to the 1939 (and earlier theater production) use, but might there be some relation? Or, can anyone find a pre-Kiss snit use? Page 110: "Isn't young Mr. Dickerson the son of Julius?" Mysie enquired. "I should say off hand that he is a snit." "You overstate," said Jake. "He is ectoplasm...." [The word "tantrum" appears on p. 109, but apparently coincidentally; GB lists 1981 and 2013 works that employ the odd collocation "ectoplasmic snit," perhaps also coincidental.] Stephen Goranson people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 14:59:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:59:17 -0400 Subject: bamaw = 'grandmother' Message-ID: Brace yourself: not in DARE. Development of "mamaw." Quite a few Google hits. 2001 "Shelly r" [sic] _Entertaining Jonathan_ (Lincoln, Neb.: iUniverse) 194: “Bamaw, Bamaw, we're back,” Sunny Daye called, as she banged the front door behind her. 2009 Winston Groom _Vicksburg 1863_ (N.Y.: Random House) 258: “But why did they do it, Bamaw?” the child asked. JL - "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 11:24:14 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:24:14 +0000 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" Message-ID: Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from _Lady Chatterley’s Lover_: ‘It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We’re free to talk to anybody; so why shouldn’t we be free to make love to any woman who inclines us that way?’ ‘There speaks the lascivious Celt,’ said Clifford. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 16:38:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:38:30 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <201408201600.s7KF5v9N019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Much better. One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been found outside of court transcripts. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from > _L= > ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: > > =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to > t= > alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman > who= > inclines us that way?=92 > > =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 20 16:39:58 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:39:58 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot Message-ID: Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded by Isaac Heron. New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, supplement, p. 1, col. 2 I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:02:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:02:32 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Might also be worth looking at "faire l'amour", which underwent a similar shift (earlier? simultaneously?). LH On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Much better. > > One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, > since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. > > Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been > found outside of court transcripts. > > JL > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from >> _L= >> ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: >> >> =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to >> t= >> alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman >> who= >> inclines us that way?=92 >> >> =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. >> >> Fred Shapiro= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:18:01 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:18:01 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A05EE1@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from _Lady Chatterley’s Lover_: > > ‘It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We’re free to talk to anybody; so why shouldn’t we be free to make love to any woman who inclines us that way?’ > > ‘There speaks the lascivious Celt,’ said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org and earlier in the same we have this exchange between the two writers Charlie May (Clifford Chatterley's "lascivious Celt" in the above exchange) and Hammond: =================== "The whole point about the sexual problem," said Hammond, who was a tall thin fellow with a wife and two children, but much more closely connected with a typewriter, "is that there is no point to it. Strictly there is no problem. We don't want to follow a man into the W.C., so why should we want to follow him into bed with a woman? And therein lies the problem. If we took no more notice of the one thing than the other, there'd be no problem. It's all utterly senseless and pointless; a matter of misplaced curiosity." "Quite, Hammond, quite! But if someone starts making love to Julia, you begin to simmer; and if he goes on, you are soon at boiling point.". . .Julia was Hammond's wife. "Why, exactly! So I should be if he began to urinate in a corner of my drawing-room. There's a place for all these things." "You mean you wouldn't mind if he made love to Julia in some discreet alcove?" Charlie May was slightly satirical, for he had flirted a very little with Julia, and Hammond had cut up very roughly. "Of course I should mind. Sex is a private thing between me and Julia; and of course I should mind anyone else trying to mix in." =================== --I would guess that the first instance of "make love" ("But if someone starts making love to Julia, you begin to simmer") is the older one, akin to "flirt with", while probably the second one ("made love to Julia in some discreet alcove") and clearly the one Fred cites, several lines below it, represent the euphemistic one. Immediately following Clifford's remark we have this between May and Hammond: ==================== "Lascivious! well, why not--? I can't see I do a woman any more harm by sleeping with her than by dancing with her. . .or even talking to her about the weather. It's just an interchange of sensations instead of ideas, so why not?" "Be as promiscuous as the rabbits!" said Hammond. "Why not? What's wrong with rabbits? Are they any worse than a neurotic, revolutionary humanity, full of nervous hate?" ==================== Those rabbits aren't just flirting. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 20 17:24:14 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:24:14 -0300 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <201408201640.s7KF5vOX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on Google. DAD Poster: George Thompson Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded by Isaac Heron. New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, supplement, p. 1, col. 2 I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:25:07 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:25:07 +0000 Subject: Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Message-ID: How about this citation: make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (Lexis) As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. Fred Shapiro Editor YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (Yale University Press) ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 12:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" Much better. One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been found outside of court transcripts. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from > _L= > ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: > > =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to > t= > alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman > who= > inclines us that way?=92 > > =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:35:09 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:35:09 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <000d01cfbc9b$91a38800$b4ea9800$@com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 1:24 PM, David Daniel wrote: > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on Google. Not even for Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard & Co.? LH > > > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > by Isaac > Heron. > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 20 17:48:47 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:48:47 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192052.s7JK5tgb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I started wondering whether wordies did pick up epicaricacy because it's on word lists without English equivalents. Other than 1955, which appears to be fabricated as a way to sell a book, the earliest citation after the eighteenth century Wiktionary has is 2004, followed by citations in 2007 and 2008. On alt.support.menopause (http://bit.ly/XAFTfh), user "Chakolate" says they found epicaricacy on onelook.com as the Latinate English equivalent to Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude, BTW, got a huge bump in popularization in 1991 of "When Flanders Failed" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Flanders_Failed), a Simpson's episode. That's quite a bit of time before 2004, but perhaps the accretion of schadenfreude uses in rerun viewers' brains reached a critical point that laid the groundwork for epicaricacy. Very relevant to the untranslatability theory, on October 11, 2006, user "Top Poster" says on alt.tv.lost (http://bit.ly/1tmbhJ3): ----- I was making a joke becaue [sic] schadenfreude has been the magic word of the day lately, and all the boneheads who use it heard it from someone else who told them "there is no english equivalent." However, I should note that there IS, in fact, an english equivalent: epicaricacy ----- Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. > > Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld > has recently discovered it. > > Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = >> citations over the past decade, plus >> =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= >> =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = >> mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = >> treated differently from use of a word.) BB >> >> On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = >> wrote: >> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>> =20 >>>> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >>>> "conventional wisdom". >>>> =3D20 >>>> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >>>> =3D20 >>>> The punchline should be revealing: >>>> =3D20 >>>>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D >>> that >>>> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >>>> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = >> =3D >>> of >>>> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >>>> =3D20 >>> =20 >>> "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D >>> relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = >> must =3D >>> have meant "epicranium". >>> =20 >>> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 18:14:28 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <201408201723.s7KF5vjR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are likely to come into contact with stolen goods. DanG On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:24 PM, David Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Daniel > Subject: Re: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on > Google. > DAD > > > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > by Isaac > Heron. > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 18:44:45 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:44:45 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A05EE1@x10-mbx5.yu.yale. edu> Message-ID: At 8/20/2014 07:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is >from _Lady Chatterley's Lover_: > > 'It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We're free > to talk to anybody; so why shouldn't we be free to make love to any > woman who inclines us that way?' > > 'There speaks the lascivious Celt,' said Clifford. Male chauvinism in intercourse of two kinds? "talk to", not "talk with", as well as "make love". JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 18:48:20 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:48:20 -0400 Subject: "... in Outside Chicago" Message-ID: Daily Beast headline: Last Hostages Freed in Outside Chicago http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/08/20/last-hostages-freed-in-outside-chicago.html DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 19:12:24 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:12:24 -0400 Subject: "fritz" from "frig"? Message-ID: A colleague on another list just wrote "Have you tried taping the paper to the refrigerator? Your animals probably aren’t up to climbing the frig. I don’t have animals, and I quite often tape to the frig­just so they won’t get lost on my desk." 1) I wonder how she pronounces it. 2) If she says "fridg", might this cold source, rather than "friz" = "frozen", be the origin of "fritz" = 'not working"? [Not really suggested seriously.] JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 21:43:13 2014 From: caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM (caitlin o) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:43:13 -0700 Subject: Chester Drawer Message-ID: Today on the DC area freecycle feed: "I'm in need of a Chester Drawer in good condition." Meaning, presumably, chest of drawers, or chesterfield? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From btorbert at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 22:06:44 2014 From: btorbert at GMAIL.COM (Benjamin Torbert) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:06:44 -0500 Subject: Chester Drawer In-Reply-To: <201408202143.s7KLCZ1D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: AS article on said: http://www.waywordradio.org/Chester_Drawers.pdf On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 4:43 PM, caitlin o wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: caitlin o > Subject: Chester Drawer > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today on the DC area freecycle feed: > "I'm in need of a Chester Drawer in good condition." > Meaning=2C presumably=2C chest of drawers=2C or chesterfield? > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 23:46:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:46:11 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" Message-ID: In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." Go, as they say, figger. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 21 00:02:07 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:02:07 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally > rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > > Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > > Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear > Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." It was only later, when they discovered fluoridation was a Commie plot, that they changed it to Flori-duh. LH > > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > > Go, as they say, figger. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 00:59:34 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:59:34 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210002.s7KLCZZL019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, I meant "principle." So sue me. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold = > formally > > rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > >=20 > > Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > >=20 > > Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > > Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly = > hear > > Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > > It was only later, when they discovered fluoridation was a Commie plot, = > that they changed it to Flori-duh. > > LH > > >=20 > > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or = > "Alabammy." > >=20 > > Go, as they say, figger. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 02:39:16 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:39:16 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408202346.s7KLCZVN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." My parents used "Georgy" and "Alabam-uh." Youneverknow. Will no language rid itself of these annoying inconsistencies?! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 21 03:03:47 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 23:03:47 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/20/2014 07:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally >rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > >Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > >Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the >Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear >Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > >That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > >Go, as they say, figger. Eeraye, Eeraye, ay. Well, close: Patsy ory ory ay Patsy ory ory ay Patsy ory ory ay Working on the railroad. (Why the last line isn't published as "Working on the railway" I have no idea. I'm sure around the campfires many sang it that way to introduce a rhyme.) JSB. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 03:22:57 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:22:57 +0800 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210303.s7L1MM3X019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JL: <> WB: Ooooh! You used the f-word! From campfire ditties: What did Delaware? She wore her New Jersey. What does Iowa? She weighs a Washington. What does Idaho? She hoes her Maryland. Where has Oregon? She's gone to Oklahoma. What did Massa-chew? He chewed his Connecti-cud. Why did Cali-phone ya? He phoned to say "Hawaii" Where has Oregon? Alaska where she's gone. She went to pay her Texas. What did Mississip? She sipped a Mini-soda. How did Wiscon-sin? She stole a New-brass-key, Too bad that Arkan-saw, and so did Tenna-see. It made poor Flori-die, you see, she died in Missouri. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/delaware.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 08:57:46 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 04:57:46 -0400 Subject: Fashionista coinage coverage in The Chronicle of Higher Education Message-ID: The origin of the word "fashionista" was discussed on the ADS mailing list in May 2013. Now, Ben Yagoda has published a wonderfully entertaining piece on this topic: Title: Local Boy Makes Word? Author: Ben Yagoda Date: August 20, 2014 Website: Lingua Franca blog of The Chronicle of Higher Education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2014/08/20/local-boy-makes-word/ (Thanks to Barry Popik for his off-list email notification about this excellent article.) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 21 14:43:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: Fashionista coinage coverage in The Chronicle of Higher Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2014, at 4:57 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > The origin of the word "fashionista" was discussed on the ADS mailing > list in May 2013. Now, Ben Yagoda has published a wonderfully > entertaining piece on this topic: > > Title: Local Boy Makes Word? > Author: Ben Yagoda > Date: August 20, 2014 > Website: Lingua Franca blog of The Chronicle of Higher Education > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2014/08/20/local-boy-makes-word/ Nice; I'll watch for the network premiere of "The Big Lang. Theory". Ben Y.'s (seems like we need to find a Ben X. to complete our set) observation about the creeping occurrences of "fashionisto", "baristo", etc. remind me of forms like "ad feminam" and "womano a womano", discussed in these parts a few years ago. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 21 14:51:34 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:51:34 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are likely to come into contact with stolen goods. DanG A pivot is a part of a watch, so there is a connection there. The writer is supposing that the thief will try to sell the watch to a watchmaker. GAT On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are > likely to come into contact with stolen goods. > > DanG > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:24 PM, David Daniel > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: David Daniel > > Subject: Re: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on > > Google. > > DAD > > > > > > Poster: George Thompson > > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, > London, > > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > > by Isaac > > Heron. > > > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > > > GAT > > > > -- > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 15:59:37 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:59:37 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? I can't get any results from http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with delimited dates, etc. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 17:17:45 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:17:45 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <1244323992af49948788e030094597fe@UGUNHPTO.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE This: http://news.google.com/newspapers turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's no obvious way to limit by date. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? > > I can't get any results from=20 > http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? > > Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with > delimit= ed dates, etc. > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 17:31:48 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:31:48 -0400 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408211717.s7LFrBUR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill: For unknown reasons Google destroyed the search capability with date-restrictions for the Google Newspaper Archive (GNA) some months ago. In my experiences GNA searches with date-restrictions had always been defective, because of "false negatives". Yet, these searches were still useful. It is still possible to search the Google Newspaper Archive by adding a site-restriction to a standard Google search. Here is a comment from the Google News Archive Search help https://support.google.com/news/answer/1638638?hl=en&rd=1 [Begin excerpt] To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms you’d like to use. For example, if you’re searching for a scanned article on the Berlin wall, you would type in: site:google.com/newspapers "the Berlin wall" [End excerpt] On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > This: > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's no obv= > ious way to limit by date. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) >> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) >>=20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" >> >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >>=20 >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >>=20 >> Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? >>=20 >> I can't get any results from=3D20 >> http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? >>=20 >> Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with >> delimit=3D ed dates, etc. >>=20 >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 19:06:43 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:06:43 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210303.s7L1MM3X019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been told by residents of the place, including my son for a few years, that Piqua, OH, is pronounced "Pickway." Herb On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 11:03 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/20/2014 07:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally > >rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > > > >Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > > > >Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > >Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear > >Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > > > >That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > > > >Go, as they say, figger. > > Eeraye, Eeraye, ay. Well, close: > > Patsy ory ory ay > Patsy ory ory ay > Patsy ory ory ay > Working on the railroad. > > (Why the last line isn't published as "Working on the railway" I have > no idea. I'm sure around the campfires many sang it that way to > introduce a rhyme.) > > JSB. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 20:47:01 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:47:01 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Apparently there are some people associated with newspapers who provided microfilm to Google for scanning who are upset that they don't have good access to the scans. The issue shows up in threads from this search: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/news/%22news$20archive%22%7Csort:relevance However, someone named "Stacie C." at Google has stated several times in the last few months that some level of functionality will be restored. So there's that. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of ADSGarson O'Toole > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Bill: For unknown reasons Google destroyed the search capability with > date-restrictions for the Google Newspaper Archive (GNA) some months > ago. In my experiences GNA searches with date-restrictions had always > been defective, because of "false negatives". Yet, these searches were > still useful. > > It is still possible to search the Google Newspaper Archive by adding a > site-restriction to a standard Google search. Here is a comment from > the Google News Archive Search help > > https://support.google.com/news/answer/1638638?hl=3Den&rd=3D1 > > [Begin excerpt] > To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and > type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms > you=E2=80=99d like to use. For example, if you=E2=80=99re searching for > a s= canned article on the Berlin wall, you would type in: > > site:google.com/newspapers "the Berlin wall" > > [End excerpt] > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > -----------------= > ------ > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > ---= > ------ > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > This: > > > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > > > turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's > > no o= > bv=3D > > ious way to limit by date. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > >>Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) > >> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > >>=3D20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>--------------- > >> -------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > >> > >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>- > >> -------- > >>=3D20 > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> Caveats: NONE > >>=3D20 > >> Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? > >>=3D20 > >> I can't get any results from=3D3D20 > >> http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? > >>=3D20 > >> Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with > >>delimit=3D3D ed dates, etc. > >>=3D20 > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> Caveats: NONE > >>=3D20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 21:00:18 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:00:18 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408211906.s7LI1wTT019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > Piqua, OH, is pronounced "Pickway." The late Harvey Fuqua, who sang lead with The Moonglows on the well-known R&B oldie, "Sincerely," pronounced his name as "Fewqway." Somewhere, back in the '40's, I read a description of pig-Latin in which "-a" was used in place of the "-ay" that I expected on the basis of having heard it on the playground. Since this was the only written - hence, canonical, of course - version of p-L that I'd ever seen, for years, I thought that I was somehow mishearing the "-a" as "-ay." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 21 21:18:18 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:18:18 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) Message-ID: Compliments to Jim, and the benefits of cross-fertilization: JSB >From: [an OED editor] >To: "Joel S. Berson" >Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:43:49 -0400 >Subject: RE: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) > >This is a fantastic find; thank you so much for passing it on! Not >only is it an antedating, but the entry previously lacked contextual >evidence for this sense (I agree with your interpretation of 1806). > >I've put the quotation in the revision file for this entry, so that >it can be integrated at revision. > >Best wishes, >[name] > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joel S. Berson >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 10:00 AM >To: [OED editor] >Subject: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) > >I wonder some'optician did not think it a good speculation to >construct Sunglasses for the observation of the late eclipse. Mr. >Benjamin Martin did so for that of 1764,--the beautiful >annular eclipse; and the sale even then was great. His was a dense >red Sun-glass, set as in the centre of a backgammon-man, of about >half-a-crown diameter. But they might be variously fitted >up---with dark green glass, to give a pale green image; strong >yellow for a light yellow; deep violet for a purple; deep violet and >dark green combined, for a pure white image. > >1817 Jan. 1. The Monthly Magazine: Or, British Register. Vol. >XLII. Part II for 1816 (Vol. 42, No. 6). Page 499/2. > >"sun-glass" antedates OED2 sense (b) "a shade-glass". The 1804 >quotation is for (a) "a burning glass"; the 1806 quotation is >ambiguous out of context, but I think an "Indian" with Lewis and >Clark would have prized a burning glass. > >Discovered by Jim Chevallier. > >Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 21 21:32:02 2014 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 21:32:02 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212047.s7LJvXHh019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we might say, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I hadn't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves vs. Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an easily-caught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton." The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other reference works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 21:35:03 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 21:35:03 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I always understood it as follows: In old grocery stores, canned goods would be on shelves that reached higher than the grocer could reach. He'd use a stick with a hook to pull a can of corn off an 8 foot high shelf, and it would drop into his hands for an easy catch. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Charles C Doyle > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 4:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "can of corn" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: "can of corn" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might s= ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, > though I had= n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the > Atlanta Braves vs= . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray > remarked, about an easily-c= aught high fly ball to center field, > "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton."= =0A= =0A= The expression is > absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other refere= nce works, > presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . = =0A= > =0A= Charlie= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 21:59:50 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:59:50 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212132.s7LJvXTf019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list members. http://books.google.com/books?id=ceeU7xSLw5kC&q=%22can+o+corn%22+#v=snippet& Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) veracity. Title: Origin of baseball term “can of corn” Date: May 2, 2008 http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations of unknown (to me) veracity. http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18322 Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) [Begin excerpt] can of corn (baseball term) Post by Ken Greenwald Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give definitive answers around here. (<:) CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated with the grocer’s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he’d simply tip it forward with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his waiting hands. (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] can of corn (baseball term) Post by Ken Greenwald Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm Gentlemen, Here’s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer had to say: Monday, July 30, 2001 Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." [End excerpt] On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we might s= > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I had= > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves vs= > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an easily-c= > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton."= > =0A= > =0A= > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other refere= > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . = > =0A= > =0A= > Charlie= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 23:48:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:48:19 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212159.s7LJvXYl019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: See HDAS I, p. 358. I have heard it only in reference to baseball. Used by whom in 1896? JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= > nippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity= > . > > Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of > co= > rn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it > forwa= > rd > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. > > (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) > [End excerpt] > > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm > Gentlemen, Here=E2=80=99s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle > Post-Intelligencer had to say: > > Monday, July 30, 2001 > Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' > > Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred > to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? > > AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received > here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A > couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive > "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, > first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a > grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, > then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible > source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." > [End excerpt] > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -----------------= > ------ > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles C Doyle > > Subject: "can of corn" > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ > > > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might= > s=3D > > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I > h= > ad=3D > > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves > = > vs=3D > > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an > easily= > -c=3D > > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ > Upton."= > =3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other > refe= > re=3D > > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . > = > . =3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Charlie=3D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 22 01:22:29 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:22:29 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF484@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: What an excellent guide! I would just add two points. 1. Be suspicious of datings in databases, especially if they seem too good to be true. Always try to confirm datings with a date in an image of the original document. 2. Dictionaries can be source documents in their own right, if they are dictionaries that the OED editors have not seen. You can be sure that the OED editors are familiar with, say, any Merriam - Webster publication. But a specialized industry glossary might be a valuable contribution. John Baker > On Aug 18, 2014, at 11:13 AM, "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" wrote: > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Good article! > > Some specific comments . . . > >> you probably should NOT search for > > >> * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are >> to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > >> * Extremely new entries. > Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > >> To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already >> found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for >> "antedating"): >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: > http://www.barrypopik.com/ > > > You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. > > This article: > http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition > would drive the point home in a memorable way. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Beth Young >> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beth Young >> Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a >> how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put >> together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of >> it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Beth Young >> >> >> ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** >> >> >> Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of >> you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work >> in groups. >> >> This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing >> that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in >> lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- >> world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the >> greatest language resources in the English language. >> >> You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! >> Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur >> genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with >> Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: >> http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- >> scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html >> >> >> >> ***Choose which word(s) to look for: >> >> You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words >> will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the >> evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED >> lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you >> probably should NOT search for >> >> * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates >> from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in >> an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying >> around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) >> >> * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are >> to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. >> >> * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished >> updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently >> searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're >> planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably >> won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that >> it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources >> are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out >> where else to look.) >> >> Instead, try looking for >> >> * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 >> * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the >> Internet) >> * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) >> * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: >> http://public.oed.com/appeals/ >> >> To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already >> found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for >> "antedating"): >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l >> >> >> >> ***Decide where/how to search: >> >> Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the >> word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation >> should be the end of your search window. >> >> The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. >> For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, >> you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was >> invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the >> database you're searching. >> >> Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. >> For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is >> an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that >> there is--this is just an example.) >> >> Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was >> particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with >> quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, >> "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once >> been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be >> entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in >> texts you're reading for another purpose. >> >> Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already >> searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch >> magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch >> magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. >> >> Additional information on search strategies: >> >> http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- >> for-an-origin >> (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer >> words) >> >> http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- >> google.html >> (google tips and tricks) >> >> >> Some online databases to search in: >> >> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- >> sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 >> a list of sites for researching etymology; >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant >> list of publicly accessible full-text databases >> >> Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure >> out which avenues are probably not worth exploring >> >> UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: >> http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian >> recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives >> (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has >> searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of >> some old local Florida papers). >> Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( >> http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full >> content the library provides either through subscription or Open >> Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical >> Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but >> maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search >> them!) >> >> Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left >> toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful >> include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; >> Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections >> Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida >> Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino >> Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth >> Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, >> Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. >> >> Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., >> ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, >> NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers >> 1600-1950) >> >> If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to >> access full-text online archives of past issues. >> >> >> >> ***Know what evidence you need: >> >> The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word >> was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely >> dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable >> facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: >> http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) >> >> Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: >> >> * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary >> says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative >> quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but >> unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, >> verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it >> doesn't count. >> >> * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you >> think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, >> but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers >> haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. >> >> * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run >> articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But >> the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you >> need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the >> earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in >> 1898 doesn't count. >> >> * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words >> "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam >> Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam >> Browne," >> that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who >> attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking >> for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression >> in use. >> >> What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original >> print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a >> particular date. >> >> In particular, you need all the information required by the OED >> submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is >> being used: >> http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ >> >> The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is >> more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. >> >> For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: >> http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ >> >> Also see the FAQs about contributions here: >> http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute >> >> >> >> ***Take good notes! >> >> Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, >> and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- >> quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. >> >> >> >> >> >> Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie >> Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George >> Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the >> ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. >> >> >>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: >>> >>> Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? >>> >>> Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who >>> tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't >>> appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two >>> who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help >>> students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, >>> and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with >> potential real-world application. >>> >>> The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better >>> students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they >>> tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary >>> ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from >>> the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") >>> or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word >> originated centuries earlier. >>> >>> One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to >>> antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the >> easiest >>> words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a >> year ago. >>> >>> A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my >>> classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this >>> activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic >>> information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go >> about antedating a word. >>> >>> Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have >>> you tried this sort of activity with students? >>> >>> thanks, >>> >>> Beth Young >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 01:37:51 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:37:51 -0500 Subject: acetabula et calculi Message-ID: Forgive an off-topic question, but I'm betting someone on the list knows more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken, within the conjuring community, to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin, but I believe a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out how to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT, and it gives "balls". Google Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Aug 22 02:05:10 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 22:05:10 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated with the grocer’s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he’d simply tip it forward with *a rod or a broom handle* [?] so that it would tumble easily into his waiting hands." Back on Curtis street, in Meriden, Conn., in the late 1940s/early 1950s, Mr. Christian had a special tool for getting merchandise from the highest shelves. On one side of one end there was a pincher, worked by a handle at the other end; opposite the pincher was a hook. He had the option of using the hook to tip a box until it fell, or of lifting it down. I thought it was the coolest thing. As I recall, Mr. Christian had better sense than to put heavy, solid merchandise (like cans of corn) on the high shelves. I recall that they were always boxes, quite light, so if the pincher lost its grasp, or if he muffed the falling shredded wheat, he wouldn't be flattened. But perhaps if a retired baseball player had opened a grocery, he would put the heavy stuff up high, so he could show that he still had good hands. GAT On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=ceeU7xSLw5kC&q=%22can+o+corn%22+#v=snippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity. > > Title: Origin of baseball term “can of corn” > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer’s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he’d simply tip it forward > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. > > (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) > [End excerpt] > > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm > Gentlemen, Here’s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle > Post-Intelligencer had to say: > > Monday, July 30, 2001 > Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' > > Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred > to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? > > AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received > here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A > couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive > "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, > first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a > grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, > then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible > source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." > [End excerpt] > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles C Doyle > > Subject: "can of corn" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might s= > > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I > had= > > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves > vs= > > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an > easily-c= > > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ > Upton."= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other > refere= > > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . > . = > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Charlie= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 03:22:18 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:22:18 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212348.s7LJvXir019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > See HDAS I, p. 358. > > I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > > Used by whom in 1896? HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught high fly ball: Newspaper: Los Angeles Times Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California Date: 1930 June 19 Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES CLASH Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds Author: Bob Ray Start Page 11 Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) Database ProQuest [Begin except] Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which makes it a big seven for, oh, as far as the present series is concerned. Ike came close to a hit in the third when he slashed a torrid drive to left center, but Hill galloped over in front of the ball and leaped up to turn what looked like a sure double into just a can of corn, as the baseball boys call an out. [End excerpt] The 1896 citation is in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". Google Books has three copies but all three are in No Preview mode. Amazon has a copy and Look Inside allows one to see page 99 which shows part of the entry for "can of corn". Dickson also lists the variant "can o' corn". The key citation starts with the following text. The next part of the text is printed on page 100 which I cannot see, but I doubt Dickson gives a page number: [Begin excerpt] 1st Use. 1896. (Burt L. Standish, Frank Merriwell's Schooldays . . . [End excerpt] This citation information also appears in a newspaper article online at the SeattlePI website of Seattle Washington: Title: Answer Guy: New eats, amazing factoids and more in Season 11 Author: By JOHN MARSHALL, P-I REPORTER Timestamp: Published 10:00 pm, Sunday, April 2, 2006 http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/baseball/article/Answer-Guy-New-eats-amazing-factoids-and-more-1200070.php [Begin excerpt] Q: Donald Bednarz asks, "How did the saying 'can of corn' come about and when was it first used in baseball?" AG: Why not start 2006 with a rare reprise of perhaps the most frequent question received in this column's history? According to the definitive "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary," the use of "can of corn" for an easy fly ball is widely thought to have originated back in olden days when grocers would tip a can of veggies from a top shelf in the store and then catch it, either via hands or their aprons. First published use of the term was in 1896 in "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. Standish. [End excerpt] Google Books contains some copies of Frank Merriwell's Schooldays, but they are in No Preview mode. HathiTrust has a copy of the 1901 edition in Full View mode here: [Begin HathiTrust metadata] Title: Frank Merriwell's school days / by Burt L. Standish, [pseud.]. Main Author: Standish Published: Philadelphia: David McKay, 1901. Note: Originally published in 1896., Burt L., 1866-1945. Physical Description: 302 p. : ill. [End HathiTrust metadata] http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc2.ark:/13960/t76t0jb4w I searched for "corn" in this book and there was one match on page 11. The match was irrelevant. It did not show "can of corn" or "can o' corn". I searched for variants and found nothing relevant. This HathiTrust book is the 1901 edition and not the 1896 edition. So the phrase may be in the 1896 edition. It is also possible that I did not search for the appropriate dialectical spelling in the 1901 edition. The Internet Archive has a scanned copy of the 1901 edition here: https://archive.org/stream/frankmsschoolday00staniala#page/n5/mode/2up Here is a link to the raw OCR. I searched in the raw OCR and could not find the target phrase: https://ia700409.us.archive.org/19/items/frankmsschoolday00staniala/frankmsschoolday00staniala_djvu.txt WorldCat lists an 1896 edition. So there is evidence that the 1896 edition exists, but there does not appear to be an accessible scanned version online. [Begin WorldCat metadata] Title: Frank Merriwell's schooldays; A tale of school life at Fardale Academy. Author: Burt L Standish Publisher: New York, Street & Smith [1896] Series: The Merriwell series, no. 1 [End WorldCat metadata] Summary, the 1930 cite is interesting. At this point, I haven't been able to precisely locate the 1896 cite. Garson On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > See HDAS I, p. 358. > > I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > > Used by whom in 1896? > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google >> Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson >> (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list >> members. >> >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= >> nippet& >> >> Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) >> veracity= >> . >> >> Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D >> Date: May 2, 2008 >> http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html >> >> Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations >> of unknown (to me) veracity. >> >> http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 >> >> >> Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> can of corn (baseball term) >> >> Post by Ken Greenwald >> Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am >> >> Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give >> definitive answers around here. (<:) >> >> CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated >> with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of >> co= >> rn >> on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it >> forwa= >> rd >> with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his >> waiting hands. >> >> (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) >> [End excerpt] >> >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> can of corn (baseball term) >> >> Post by Ken Greenwald >> Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm >> Gentlemen, Here=E2=80=99s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle >> Post-Intelligencer had to say: >> >> Monday, July 30, 2001 >> Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' >> >> Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred >> to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? >> >> AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received >> here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A >> couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive >> "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, >> first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a >> grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, >> then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible >> source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." >> [End excerpt] >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> -----------------= >> ------ >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Charles C Doyle >> > Subject: "can of corn" >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------ >> > >> > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we >> might= >> s=3D >> > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I >> h= >> ad=3D >> > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves >> = >> vs=3D >> > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an >> easily= >> -c=3D >> > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ >> Upton."= >> =3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other >> refe= >> re=3D >> > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . >> = >> . =3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > Charlie=3D >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 03:33:33 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:33:33 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/21/2014 10:05 PM, George Thompson wrote: >"CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated >with the grocer’s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn >on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he’d simply tip it forward >with *a rod or a broom handle* [?] so that it would tumble easily into his >waiting hands." > >Back on Curtis street, in Meriden, Conn., in the late 1940s/early 1950s, >Mr. Christian had a special tool for getting merchandise from the highest >shelves. I thought everyone did. I even think it had a name, but I forget. "Grocer's "? >On one side of one end there was a pincher, worked by a handle at >the other end; opposite the pincher was a hook. The device probably looked something like this, apart from the hook -- Unger 92134 36-Inch Nifty Nabber http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unger-36-In-Nifty-Nabber-92134D/203177379 But that's not the name I remember. >He had the option of using >the hook to tip a box until it fell, or of lifting it down. I thought it >was the coolest thing. Me too. >As I recall, Mr. Christian had better sense than to >put heavy, solid merchandise (like cans of corn) on the high shelves. I >recall that they were always boxes, quite light, so if the pincher lost its >grasp, or if he muffed the falling shredded wheat, he wouldn't be flattened. >But perhaps if a retired baseball player had opened a grocery, he would put >the heavy stuff up high, so he could show that he still had good hands. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 22 03:40:31 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:40:31 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> See HDAS I, p. 358. >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. >> >> Used by whom in 1896? > > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > high fly ball: > > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > Date: 1930 June 19 > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES CLASH > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > Author: Bob Ray > Start Page 11 > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > Database ProQuest > > [Begin except] > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > makes it a big seven for, oh, > as far as the present series is > concerned. wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for 7" > […] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at CABLEMO.NET Fri Aug 22 04:55:28 2014 From: dwhause at CABLEMO.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:55:28 -0500 Subject: acetabula et calculi Message-ID: Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for one thrown by a ballista. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mullins" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: acetabula et calculi Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 04:05:09 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:05:09 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <201408220137.s7M0U40H019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought it was acetabuli (small cups) and calculi (small stones), but I could be wrong. On Aug 21, 2014 9:37 PM, "Bill Mullins" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: acetabula et calculi > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows > = > more about this than I do. > "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring > community= > =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference > = > in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I > believ= > e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". > So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out > h= > ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 > "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". > Goog= > le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". > Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 05:35:21 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:35:21 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <201408220405.s7M0U4QF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I thought it was acetabuli (small cups) and calculi (small stones), but I > could be wrong. > Then we both are, The Gonch! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Aug 22 11:26:02 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:26:02 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <85DD1CF7A647425B84F019733BB544E0@hausemobile> Message-ID: "Calculus" is a pebble or small stone, such as one used in counting (hence the English word) or as a piece in a game like checkers. It is a good choice for this context. "Acetabula et calculi" is a legitimate translation of the name of the magic trick. "Pila" is ball, such as that you play with, so "acetabula et pilae" also works. I don't know what's up with Google Translate. It handles the singular "ball" okay. The nominative plural of pila is "pilae," of calculus is "calculi." "Lapis" is either a rock, a milestone, or a precious stone, so it's probably not the right choice for this context. "Lapides" would be the nominative plural. "Sphera" or "spherae" in the plural, is another option. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: acetabula et calculi Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for one thrown by a ballista. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mullins" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: acetabula et calculi Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:09:46 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:09:46 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408220340.s7M0U49P019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Re: "Burt L. Standish" I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore in the '70s. Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized and heavily Christianized too. The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything earlier. Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed "neat" (as we used to say). JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> See HDAS I, p. 358. > >>=20 > >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > >>=20 > >> Used by whom in 1896? > >=20 > > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > > high fly ball: > >=20 > > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > > Date: 1930 June 19 > > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = > CLASH > > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > > Author: Bob Ray > > Start Page 11 > > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > > Database ProQuest > >=20 > > [Begin except] > > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > > makes it a big seven for, oh, > > > as far as the present series is > > concerned. > > > wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = > 7" > > > [=85] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:19:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:19:12 -0400 Subject: moneymaker Message-ID: Every reader of HDAS knows by now which bodily parts of "female sex workers" this originally referred to. Now it means your face. CNN: "Protect the moneymaker!" (Advice for when you're staring at a foul ball heading your way.) But maybe it only means your face if you're a TV personality. In that case, OK. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:19:41 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:19:41 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221209.s7MADrmR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It appears that Paul Dickson removed the 1896 citation for "can of corn" from his reference work in the recent revised edition printed in 2011. The 1896 citation for "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. Standish is present in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". This edition was released in 1999 by Harcourt Brace & Company of New York. The 1896 citation is absent from "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary, Third Edition, The Revised, Expanded, and Now-Definitive Work on the Language of Baseball" printed in 2011 from W.W. Norton & Company of New York. The publication notes list three copyrights in 1988, 1999, and 2009. The publication notes list "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary" as a previous edition. It is possible that Paul Dickson determined that the 1896 citation was faulty and deliberately removed it. I have been unable to find "can of corn" in the 1901 edition of "Frank Merriwell's School Days" by Burt L. Standish (pseudonym). I haven't examined the 1896 edition. JL noted the problem of modernized editions. The 2011 edition of Dickson's reference gives a 1930 citation for "can of corn" with a baseball player catching a "torrid drive". I gave the details for this LA Times cite in a previous message. Here is a 1932 citation that is closer to the common modern meaning. The newspaper article discussed a young baseball lexicographer who was collecting colorful words and phrases used in game. A sampling from the embryonic dictionary was reprinted: Date: November 30, 1932 Newspaper: Greensboro Daily News Newspaper Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Title: Young First Sacker of Chicago Club Collects Unusual Diamond Expressions Quote Page: 4, Column: 5 Database: GenealogyBank [Begin excerpt] Banana stalk - a bat with poor wood in it. Can of corn - a high, lazy fly ball. Rubber bat - bat used by player who gets a lot of fluke hits. [End excerpt] Garson On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Re: "Burt L. Standish" > > I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore > in the '70s. > > Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was > still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > > My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > > Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > > A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > > Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > > You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > and heavily Christianized too. > > The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same > 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > earlier. > > Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > "neat" (as we used to say). > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: >> >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> See HDAS I, p. 358. >> >>=20 >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. >> >>=20 >> >> Used by whom in 1896? >> >=20 >> > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third >> > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los >> > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from >> > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught >> > high fly ball: >> >=20 >> > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times >> > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California >> > Date: 1930 June 19 >> > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = >> CLASH >> > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds >> > Author: Bob Ray >> > Start Page 11 >> > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) >> > Database ProQuest >> >=20 >> > [Begin except] >> > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which >> > makes it a big seven for, oh, >> >> > as far as the present series is >> > concerned. >> >> >> wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = >> 7" >> >> > [=85] >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:47:57 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:47:57 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408191243.s7JBwV8H019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just last night we watched a TV documentary (on "American Heroes Channel") arguing that Christopher Columbus was actually a different man with the same name. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 8:43 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An entry on this topic is now available on the QI website. The > acknowledgement mentions Stephen Goranson, JL, and other discussion > participants. > > The Plays of Shakespeare Were Not Written by Shakespeare but by > Another Man of the Same Name > http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/19/same-name/ > > Feedback welcome. Thanks, > Garson > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > Sh= > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > Shakespea= > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > > > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > ________________=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Garson:=0A= > > =0A= > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > > =0A= > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > > =0A= > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > > of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > > another man of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > > =0A= > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:58:51 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:58:51 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221219.s7MADroZ019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, 1932 is well within the bounds of ordinary usage. Sometimes the height of the pop-up and sometimes the ease of the catch appear to be emphasized, but it amounts to the same thing. If the height of the ball and its vertical descent are salient, the grocery-store etymology may well be correct, if somewhat arcane. I heard a classmate use the more general sense ("easy task") once, about 1974. That wasn't enough to get it into HDAS. Moreover, he was clearly using it metaphorically: Me: "This should be easy." He: "Can of corn?" Me: "Huh?" He: "You know. When a fielder catches a pop-up, it's a 'can of corn.'" Me: "Oh." So language grows. He's a particle physicist now. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It appears that Paul Dickson removed the 1896 citation for "can of > corn" from his reference work in the recent revised edition printed in > 2011. > > The 1896 citation for "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. > Standish is present in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". This > edition was released in 1999 by Harcourt Brace & Company of New York. > > The 1896 citation is absent from "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary, > Third Edition, The Revised, Expanded, and Now-Definitive Work on the > Language of Baseball" printed in 2011 from W.W. Norton & Company of > New York. The publication notes list three copyrights in 1988, 1999, > and 2009. The publication notes list "The New Dickson Baseball > Dictionary" as a previous edition. > > It is possible that Paul Dickson determined that the 1896 citation was > faulty and deliberately removed it. I have been unable to find "can of > corn" in the 1901 edition of "Frank Merriwell's School Days" by Burt > L. Standish (pseudonym). I haven't examined the 1896 edition. JL noted > the problem of modernized editions. > > The 2011 edition of Dickson's reference gives a 1930 citation for "can > of corn" with a baseball player catching a "torrid drive". I gave the > details for this LA Times cite in a previous message. > > Here is a 1932 citation that is closer to the common modern meaning. > The newspaper article discussed a young baseball lexicographer who was > collecting colorful words and phrases used in game. A sampling from > the embryonic dictionary was reprinted: > > Date: November 30, 1932 > Newspaper: Greensboro Daily News > Newspaper Location: Greensboro, North Carolina > Title: Young First Sacker of Chicago Club Collects Unusual Diamond > Expressions > Quote Page: 4, Column: 5 > Database: GenealogyBank > > [Begin excerpt] > Banana stalk - a bat with poor wood in it. > Can of corn - a high, lazy fly ball. > Rubber bat - bat used by player who gets a lot of fluke hits. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Re: "Burt L. Standish" > > > > I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used > bookstore > > in the '70s. > > > > Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it > was > > still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > > > > My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > > to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > > > > Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > > > > A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > > grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > > > > Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > > > > You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > > and heavily Christianized too. > > > > The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the > same > > 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > > earlier. > > > > Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > > "neat" (as we used to say). > > > > JL > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn > > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > >> > >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> See HDAS I, p. 358. > >> >>=20 > >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > >> >>=20 > >> >> Used by whom in 1896? > >> >=20 > >> > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > >> > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > >> > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > >> > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > >> > high fly ball: > >> >=20 > >> > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > >> > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > >> > Date: 1930 June 19 > >> > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = > >> CLASH > >> > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > >> > Author: Bob Ray > >> > Start Page 11 > >> > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > >> > Database ProQuest > >> >=20 > >> > [Begin except] > >> > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > >> > makes it a big seven for, oh, > >> > >> > as far as the present series is > >> > concerned. > >> > >> > >> wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = > >> 7" > >> > >> > [=85] > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 14:17:31 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:17:31 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Re: "Burt L. Standish" > >I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore >in the '70s. > >Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was >still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > >My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo >to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > >Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > >A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in >grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > >Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > >You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized >and heavily Christianized too. > >The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same >1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything >earlier. > >Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed >"neat" (as we used to say). The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 14:26:24 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:26:24 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <85DD1CF7A647425B84F019733BB544E0@hausemobile> Message-ID: William Douglass once opprobriated Zabdiel Boylston as "Ulcocalculus". In 18th century Boston everyone would have known why. I had to consult an email list for a translation of the Latin, and histories for the second connection to Boylston. Joel At 8/22/2014 12:55 AM, Dave Hause wrote: >Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My >Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for >one thrown by a ballista. >Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net >Waynesville, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Mullins" >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM >Subject: acetabula et calculi > > >Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = >more about this than I do. >"Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= >=2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = >in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= >e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". >So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= >ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 >"et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= >le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". >Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 14:56:33 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:56:33 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: <201408221417.s7MECSqr019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The etymology for "can of corn" that involves a reaching device used by grocers is fun and vivid, but it is also unconvincing to me. I have not seen any substantive citations to support it. Is it an etymythology? Here is a 1916 citation advertising a "Giraffe Shelf Reacher". Hence reaching devices with jaws and rubber grippers for grocers did exist before the 1930s. Date: August 1916 Title: Hardware Dealers' Magazine Volume: 46 Number: 2 Quote Page: 382 Publisher: Daniel T. Mallett at 253 Broadway, New York Database: Google Books http://bit.ly/1zc7oac http://books.google.com/books?id=Bpg7AQAAMAAJ&q=%22Giraffe+are%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Giraffe Shelf Reacher The Bridgeport Hardware Mfg Corporation, Bridgeport, Conn., are placing on the market a device which they describe as "needed in every store in the land." It is the Giraffe Shelf Reacher - no doubt so aptly named by a naturalist who has seen the neck of the animal named when in useful operation. The mission of the Reacher can be understood at a glance at the accompanying illustration. The manufacturers say: "Getting goods from the top shelf has always been a problem in stores, etc. The Giraffe is the solution. It provides a quick easy way of taking bottles, cans, lamp chimneys, bags or boxed goods from top shelves, four feet out of reach, and bringing them to the counter in an instant... [End excerpt] Garson On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Re: "Burt L. Standish" >> >>I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore >>in the '70s. >> >>Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was >>still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. >> >>My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo >>to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. >> >>Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. >> >>A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in >>grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. >> >>Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. >> >>You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized >>and heavily Christianized too. >> >>The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same >>1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything >>earlier. >> >>Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed >>"neat" (as we used to say). > > The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 15:26:58 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:26:58 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: <201408221456.s7MECS8j019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If the Giraffe - or something like it - first appeared around 1916, it would be well in line with a 1932 appearance of the then-novel baseball term. I can't think of an alternative origin, which means little, but use of the Giraffe was an everyday occurrence. Those shelves were high. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:56 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The etymology for "can of corn" that involves a reaching device used > by grocers is fun and vivid, but it is also unconvincing to me. I have > not seen any substantive citations to support it. Is it an > etymythology? > > Here is a 1916 citation advertising a "Giraffe Shelf Reacher". Hence > reaching devices with jaws and rubber grippers for grocers did exist > before the 1930s. > > Date: August 1916 > Title: Hardware Dealers' Magazine > Volume: 46 > Number: 2 > Quote Page: 382 > Publisher: Daniel T. Mallett at 253 Broadway, New York > Database: Google Books > > http://bit.ly/1zc7oac > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Bpg7AQAAMAAJ&q=%22Giraffe+are%22#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > Giraffe Shelf Reacher > > The Bridgeport Hardware Mfg Corporation, Bridgeport, Conn., are > placing on the market a device which they describe as "needed in every > store in the land." It is the Giraffe Shelf Reacher - no doubt so > aptly named by a naturalist who has seen the neck of the animal named > when in useful operation. The mission of the Reacher can be understood > at a glance at the accompanying illustration. The manufacturers say: > "Getting goods from the top shelf has always been a problem in stores, > etc. The Giraffe is the solution. It provides a quick easy way of > taking bottles, cans, lamp chimneys, bags or boxed goods from top > shelves, four feet out of reach, and bringing them to the counter in > an instant... > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >>Re: "Burt L. Standish" > >> > >>I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used > bookstore > >>in the '70s. > >> > >>Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it > was > >>still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > >> > >>My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > >>to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > >> > >>Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > >> > >>A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > >>grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > >> > >>Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > >> > >>You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > >>and heavily Christianized too. > >> > >>The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the > same > >>1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > >>earlier. > >> > >>Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > >>"neat" (as we used to say). > > > > The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Aug 22 15:54:30 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:54:30 +0000 Subject: on the fritz and friz--two spellings, and two pronunciations Message-ID: Previously I reported an example of the idiomatic phrase "on the friz" (note the spelling, with the same meaning as "on the fritz") in which "friz" rhymes with "wits." Here are two cases in which "on the friz," with the same meaning, rhymes with "is." (Both via Google Books.) 1911 March 18, Saturday Evening Post v.183. iss. 3 p. 26 ... Take a swift look at my scenery-- Ain't I the grandest there is Me - who once hashed in a beanery-- Putting the swells on the friz! .... 1913 Terence you're great! you're a whiz! You're just the grandest there is Talkin' or dancin' you're simply entrancin' ; you've put all the rest on the friz! So, in addition, for this phrase, to two spellings (fritz and friz--a fact not noted for this phrase, unless I missed it, in the dictionaries, OED June 2014 or HDAS or...), there were in circulation two pronunciations. (Association with frozen continues to, at a minimum, in my view, comport with the evidence.) In a newspaper column Merrian-Webster indicated that their earliest known use on file was the 1902 poem use "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz / if we never had snow?"--but I still do not know the publication citation (I enquired to M-W today). Santa being on the fritz (frozen?) via lack of freezing? Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ GB: http://books.google.com/books?id=FlowAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA9-PA26&dq=%22on+the+friz%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5WP3U7OcMaed8gHv9oDADg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22on%20the%20friz%22&f=false [http://books.google.com/books?id=FlowAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE73tbMDLWGYkzU_eUfBSv9Uj3UTTiC4BiY4fo6wIfp9pQ9lZbQ0u3SxKSkpprfLD_Euvt8MpoNfpepKKmlZ0-g8YFLuAAnuVTGqjYur69nNCgviPBA8] The Saturday Evening Post - Google Books Read more... http://books.google.com/books?id=yt4QAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT117&dq=%22on+the+friz%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5WP3U7OcMaed8gHv9oDADg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22on%20the%20friz%22&f=false [http://books.google.com/books?id=yt4QAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE713kPanun0E25iEVEfaVusRmI9Wed6GQ143gD3s1hwhx6_t8GjHO_QFkDwQqm-TukKWykyEG9CzaSHoM3KVXDPFZpKboGa4JmL9vnhqvI1HSR8QhP0] Sonnets of a Suffragette - Berton Braley - Google Books Read more... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Aug 22 19:39:34 2014 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 19:39:34 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212348.s7LJvXj3019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I apologize for not finding the entry in HDAS. I keep forgetting about the system of alphabetizing that locates (for example) "can of corn" AFTER entries for "canal," "candy," "cannon," "canoe", and 4+ pages of other entries since "can" itself appeared! As for the legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical expression "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery stores! Charlie ________________________________________ ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: "can of corn" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See HDAS I, p. 358. I have heard it only in reference to baseball. Used by whom in 1896? JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= > nippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity= > . > > Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of > co= > rn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it > forwa= > rd > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 19:44:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:44:16 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221940.s7MIudGx019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Aah, but we're not talking logic here. We're talking iconic metaphorical shortcuts. (Of course, I was somewhat shorter in 1954, so maybe the shelves weren't quite so high.) JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I apologize for not finding the entry in HDAS. I keep forgetting about > the= > system of alphabetizing that locates (for example) "can of corn" AFTER > en= > tries for "canal," "candy," "cannon," "canoe", and 4+ pages of other > entrie= > s since "can" itself appeared!=0A= > =0A= > As for the legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical > express= > ion "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > = > was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery stores!= > =0A= > =0A= > Charlie=0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > =0A= > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ----=0A= > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > Poster: Jonathan Lighter =0A= > Subject: Re: "can of corn"=0A= > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----=0A= > =0A= > See HDAS I, p. 358.=0A= > =0A= > I have heard it only in reference to baseball.=0A= > =0A= > Used by whom in 1896?=0A= > =0A= > JL=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <=0A= > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:=0A= > =0A= > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header=0A= > > -----------------------=0A= > > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole =0A= > > Subject: Re: "can of corn"=0A= > >=0A= > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------=0A= > >=0A= > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google=0A= > > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson=0A= > > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list=0A= > > members.=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D3D%22can+o+corn%22+= > #v=3D3Ds=3D=0A= > > nippet&=0A= > >=0A= > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me)=0A= > > veracity=3D=0A= > > .=0A= > >=0A= > > Title: Origin of baseball term =3DE2=3D80=3D9Ccan of corn=3DE2=3D80=3D9D= > =0A= > > Date: May 2, 2008=0A= > > > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.ht= > ml=0A= > >=0A= > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations=0A= > > of unknown (to me) veracity.=0A= > >=0A= > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D3D7&t=3D3D18322=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term)=0A= > >=0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > can of corn (baseball term)=0A= > >=0A= > > Post by Ken Greenwald=0A= > > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am=0A= > >=0A= > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give=0A= > > definitive answers around here. (<:)=0A= > >=0A= > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated=0A= > > with the grocer=3DE2=3D80=3D99s practice in the early 1900s of storing > ca= > ns of=0A= > > co=3D=0A= > > rn=0A= > > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=3DE2=3D80=3D99d simply tip > = > it=0A= > > forwa=3D=0A= > > rd=0A= > > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his=0A= > > waiting hands.= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 19:45:22 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408190311.s7J13bOX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > JSB > > > >JL > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > >wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > mass > > > more > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > against" > > > or > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if > so it > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > > > ethnic > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > > likely > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > experience > > > of > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > ----- > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > complaint to > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Fri Aug 22 21:33:18 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:33:18 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE As for the > legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > stores!= Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 02:03:37 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 02:03:37 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Message-ID: make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 02:53:51 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:53:51 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016C1525@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration going for it. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > As for the >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery >> stores!= > > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 03:03:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:03:37 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A07AEC@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) > > > > 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 03:41:46 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:41:46 -0400 Subject: moneymaker In-Reply-To: <201408221219.s7MADroB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Every reader of HDAS knows by now which bodily parts of "female sex > workers" this originally referred to. > > Now it means your face. > > CNN: "Protect the moneymaker!" (Advice for when you're staring at a foul > ball heading your way.) > > But maybe it only means your face if you're a TV personality. > > In that case, OK. >From Season 1, Episode 12 of "Community" ("Comparative Religion," aired 12/10/2009): Pierce [Chevy Chase]: Are you telling me you've never been punched in the face? Jeff [Joel McHale]: No, thank god. This is the moneymaker. http://communityquotes.net/112.php (I was just binge-watching Season 1 on a trans-Pacific flight.) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 05:41:01 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 01:41:01 -0400 Subject: "Streamers" Message-ID: "Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the concentrated beams of solar energy focused upward by the plant's 300,000 mirrors -- '_streamers_,' for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair," according to an Associated Press report." - Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 11:18:52 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:18:52 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <89F7AC0D-FED6-49A9-A4EC-03169BBEC105@yale.edu> Message-ID: Actually I was thinking exactly the same thing that Larry suggests here, after I sent this email last night. I now have concluded that this 1883 citation is very likely in the old sense of flirting or foreplay. Of the almost 100 other occurrences of "make love" or "made love" or "making love" in pre-1927 legal cases, none of them seems at all to be in the sense of sexual intercourse. The 1883 citation is thus "too good to be true" and can easily be read to mean that the defendant came on to the woman as a preliminary to gratifying his animal desires. The context is one of ultimately having intercourse but "make love" does not refer to the act of intercourse. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) > > > > 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 15:19:16 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:19:16 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <116B290C-A2DB-40E4-BFBB-E359FBBE47C4@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and >"can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration >going for it. Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) JSB >LH > > >On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > > > As for the > >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > >> stores!= > > > > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can > of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 15:24:02 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:24:02 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408220122.s7M0U4wv019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Bill, George, and John, for those excellent suggestions. I'll be updating the guide with them this weekend. Beth ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 16:44:56 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:44:56 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <250494.42785.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration going for it. > > Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) Ah, but what Warhol depicted was not a can of soup, but a soup can. "Warhol" + "soup can": 580K raw g-hits "Warhol" + "can of soup": 53K raw g-hits That's a whole nother thing. LH >> >> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: >> >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> > Caveats: NONE >> > >> > >> > >> > As for the >> >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion >> >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn >> >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery >> >> stores!= >> > >> > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". >> > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> > Caveats: NONE >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 16:50:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:50:12 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A07B6C@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:18 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Actually I was thinking exactly the same thing that Larry suggests here, after I sent this email last night. I now have concluded that this 1883 citation is very likely in the old sense of flirting or foreplay. Of the almost 100 other occurrences of "make love" or "made love" or "making love" in pre-1927 legal cases, none of them seems at all to be in the sense of sexual intercourse. The 1883 citation is thus "too good to be true" and can easily be read to mean that the defendant came on to the woman as a preliminary to gratifying his animal desires. > The context is one of ultimately having intercourse but "make love" does not refer to the act of intercourse. Exactly. I find that more plausible than the reverse, even without the suggestive evidence from the early dating. LH > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 11:03 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" > > I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. > > LH > > > On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) >> >> >> >> 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 17:42:15 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 13:42:15 -0400 Subject: "Circus" in OED2; quotation 1839 Message-ID: OED2 seems not to have a separate sense for "circus" specifically referring to exhibition of animals. Sense 2.a speaks of human performers, other senses under "2. mod." and 3. & ff. are further afield. Should it? 2.a has citations from 1792, 1806, and then 1860. The following almost certainly refers to an animal exhibit. 1839 The Knickerbocker, or New-York Monthly Magazine, "Circus", 67. [Pesumably the article title; presumably on the first page of the article.] I have only seen a citation to this, not the Knickbocker text itself. The citation is in Mizelle, Brett. "'Man Cannot Behold It Without Contemplating Himself': Monkeys, Apes and Human Identity in the Early American Republic." Explorations in Early American Culture, A Supplemental Issue of Pennsylvania History: A Journal of Mid-Atlantic Studies, 66 (1999), page 171, note 41. William Bentley's Diary has two instances of circus, 1809 Feb. 28 and 1810 March 29, but both clearly refer to exhibitions by human performers. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 19:11:03 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:11:03 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <1B627D6B-4C99-482C-8B32-698A3FB9D48A@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/23/2014 12:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" > and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has > alliteration going for it. > > > > Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) > >Ah, but what Warhol depicted was not a can of soup, but a soup can. > >"Warhol" + "soup can": 580K raw g-hits >"Warhol" + "can of soup": 53K raw g-hits > >That's a whole nother thing. 'nother can of worms? Even if not painted by Warhol, more popular -- "can of worms": 750K raw g-hits JSB >LH > >> > >> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > >> > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> > Caveats: NONE > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > As for the > >> >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > >> >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > >> >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > >> >> stores!= > >> > > >> > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than > "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > >> > > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> > Caveats: NONE > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 21:18:13 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:18:13 -0500 Subject: "But it was all for not" Message-ID: In an article about a high school football game in the Huntsville Times. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 21:54:25 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 17:54:25 -0400 Subject: "Bikeway Joint moves forward" Message-ID: In the Arlington (Mass.) Advocate this week, under the subject heading "Transportation", the article headline is "Bikeway Joint moves forward". Puzzling. Bikers have joints, which are crucial to them, but do bikeways? Is it to be a low-class "bike up bar"? It becomes clearer in the first paragraph of the story: "Plans to make a smoother connection of the Minuteman Bikeway through Arlington Center moved forward Monday, as selectmen voted in favor of securing easements on pieces of land." The Bikeway's crossing of both Massachusetts Ave and Mystic St.. in Arlington Center is nervous for car-drivers and awkward, confusing, and a bit dangerous for bikers. There will be "new bike-oriented traffic signals" (I think these will be operable by bikers, as pedestrian signals are) and signs to direct both cars and bikes. The article itself doesn't use the word "Joint" anywhere. But when the project is completed I fully expect to hear Arlington bikers making appointments to "Meet you at the Joint". (There's a Starbucks less than a tenth of a mile away.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 23:52:23 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 07:52:23 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408231650.s7NGj1qX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected semantic extension of <> around that time. (<> /Wikip) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 00:30:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:30:15 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I don't know where or how. LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 00:43:55 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:43:55 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240030.s7NGj1cx019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: <> Actually it isn't. It applied to flirting, petting, and smooching, but to "having sex" only by semantic extension. In later years, well.... JL On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating = > earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and = > hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French = > counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I = > don't know where or how. =20 > > LH > > On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have = > effected > > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< is a > > euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DANRPmTZRqkg > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 01:11:31 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:11:31 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <7549E4B3-3D21-4679-A653-1834EE8F582B@yale.edu> Message-ID: I think the closest French counterpart to the OED is Tresor de la langue francaise [diacritics omitted]. My university has online access to this as part of the ARTFL database. I don't know whether Larry's university has the same kind of resources that mine has. In any case, I looked at TLF and it doesn't seem to have an entry for "faire l'amour." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 8:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I don't know where or how. LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 02:35:32 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 22:35:32 -0400 Subject: Historical dictionary of French? Message-ID: Mavens on another list suggest -- Tresor de la langue francaise (as did Fred), currently named FRANTEXT. https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/dictionnaires-dautrefois https://encyclopedie.uchicago.edu https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/artfl-frantext http://atilf.atilf.fr/ [One or more of these last may be Tresor.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:14:13 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:14:13 +0000 Subject: Query: Origin of "give/have the willies" Message-ID: I've been asked the origin of "willies" in "give/have the willies." OED3 lists it as "Origin unknown." Would anyone have any idea? Below is OED3's entry for the item. Gerald Cohen [OED3]: willies, n. Pronunciation: /ˈwɪlɪz/ Etymology: Etymology unknown. slang (orig. U.S.). the willies: a fit of nervous apprehension. Chiefly in phrs. to give (someone) the willies, to get the willies. 1896 Dial. Notes 1 427 To have the willies, to be nervous. 1900 G. Bonner Hard-pan 99 It just gives me the willies to think of your being down on your luck. 1913 J. London Valley of Moon 105 Bert gives me the willies the way he's always lookin' for trouble. 1927 H. A. Vachell Dew of Sea 261, I sure got the willies at the thought of meeting you. 1942 G. Kersh Nine Lives Bill Nelson ix. 57 It can give you the willies when, in broad daylight, you hear a rifle go off. 1953 F. Swinnerton Month in Gordon Square 202 Gosh! She was getting the willies. It was awful. 1962 J. Heller Catch-22 xii. 127 Chief White Halfoat shuddered. ‘That guy gives me the willies,’ he confessed. 1975 B. Felton & M. Fowler Best, Worst & most Unusual 277 You can now visit Winchester House. But we wouldn't advise it if you suffer from the willies. 1984 A. Carter Nights at Circus iii. i. 199 Not that the ‘wagon salon’ isn't very pleasant, if it don't give you the willies. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:18:13 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:18:13 +0000 Subject: Query: Origin of "give/have the willies". (2nd try) Message-ID: The first e-mail came out gibberish. Here's a second try. G. Cohen ________________________________________ I've been asked the origin of "willies" in "give/have the willies." OED3 lists it as "Origin unknown." Would anyone have any idea? Below is OED3's entry for the item. Gerald Cohen [OED3]: willies, n. Pronunciation: /ˈwɪlɪz/ Etymology: Etymology unknown. slang (orig. U.S.). the willies: a fit of nervous apprehension. Chiefly in phrs. to give (someone) the willies, to get the willies. 1896 Dial. Notes 1 427 To have the willies, to be nervous. 1900 G. Bonner Hard-pan 99 It just gives me the willies to think of your being down on your luck. 1913 J. London Valley of Moon 105 Bert gives me the willies the way he's always lookin' for trouble. 1927 H. A. Vachell Dew of Sea 261, I sure got the willies at the thought of meeting you. 1942 G. Kersh Nine Lives Bill Nelson ix. 57 It can give you the willies when, in broad daylight, you hear a rifle go off. 1953 F. Swinnerton Month in Gordon Square 202 Gosh! She was getting the willies. It was awful. 1962 J. Heller Catch-22 xii. 127 Chief White Halfoat shuddered. ‘That guy gives me the willies,’ he confessed. 1975 B. Felton & M. Fowler Best, Worst & most Unusual 277 You can now visit Winchester House. But we wouldn't advise it if you suffer from the willies. 1984 A. Carter Nights at Circus iii. i. 199 Not that the ‘wagon salon’ isn't very pleasant, if it don't give you the willies. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:23:53 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:23:53 -0400 Subject: Historical dictionary of French? In-Reply-To: <160591.71530.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I see in the 1930s the Academicians were still defining "faire l'amour" in a dignified and refined light: Se livrer à la galanterie. Il passe sa vie à faire l'amour. Il fait l'amour à toutes les femmes. Wonder when the gallantry became optional (and the activity alluded to in the cites reinterpreted accordingly; cf. e.g. Wilt Chamberlain) LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:35 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Mavens on another list suggest -- > > Tresor de la langue francaise (as did Fred), currently named FRANTEXT. > > https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/dictionnaires-dautrefois > > https://encyclopedie.uchicago.edu > > https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/artfl-frantext > > http://atilf.atilf.fr/ > > [One or more of these last may be Tresor.] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:24:53 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:24:53 +0000 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" Message-ID: This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material from OED3; maybe that's what made my first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is to make them nervous. Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 24 03:41:12 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:41:12 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvH019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Inspector, Literary Magazine and Review, Volume 2, London: 1827, has a story called "The Willi-Dance. / An Hungarian Legend." and says (http://bit.ly/1ps7xFC): ----- More than all, loved Emelka to hear the legend of the Willi-dance, which the crone always thus began—" Every maiden "who dies, when she is betrothed, is called a Willi. The Willies wander "restless on the earth, and hold their nightly dances wherever roads "meet; if any man then meets them, they dance with him till he dies; "he is then the bridegroom of the youngest Willi, who thereby at last "is enabled to rest; such a one is my sister. Ah! often have I seen "her in the moon-beam,"—and then followed the tale of the lover, the sorrows and the death of the poor young maiden. In stories like this, of the region of spirits, the luckless Emelka sought to forget the bitterness of earthly suffering. ----- See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_folklore. I have no proof that this is the origin, but it certainly seems like a good starting point. Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material= > from OED3; maybe that's what made my > > first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) > > > > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the = > willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is t= > o make them nervous. > > > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 05:49:52 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:49:52 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can see some citations in the 1890s connecting "the willys" and "the willies" to delirium tremens. Saying that a person "had the 'willies'" meant the person was experiencing delirium tremens. I will post some citations later or someone else may post them first. Of course, one may still wonder why the DTs were called "the willies". Garson On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material= > from OED3; maybe that's what made my > > first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) > > > > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the = > willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is t= > o make them nervous. > > > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > > > > Gerald Cohen > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 05:55:01 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:55:01 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240111.s7O1BJgY000533@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH, if I wasn't so timid, I'd try the Acade'mie franc,aise website, find tabs La Langue franc,aise, Questions de langue: <> Better not make any faux pas in your formulaire. They're touchy that way. They never stop improving the French language, that's for sure. Today, they suggest using instead of , instead of , for , for , for . Remember, say , not . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:35:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 08:35:33 -0400 Subject: to "own" Message-ID: In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's first grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or merited. Rare. Obs." A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:41:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 08:41:19 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240555.s7O2TgOb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 2003 Peter Noah _War Stories_ (NBC-TV movie): “I lack your European *je ne sais quois*, … your *hinky dinky parlez-vous*.” (Nothing to do with WWI or Armentieres. Just something a guy says.) JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:55 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > LH, if I wasn't so timid, I'd try the Acade'mie franc,aise website, find > tabs La Langue franc,aise, Questions de langue: > < Service= > est la` > pour vous re'pondre. Remplissez le formulaire : Service du Dictionnaire.>> > Better not make any faux pas in your formulaire. They're touchy that way. > They never stop improving the French language, that's for sure. Today, they > suggest using instead of , > instead of , for , > for , for . Remember, say le'gal>, not . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:53:43 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:53:43 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408241241.s7OA3DMf019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JL: <<=E2=80=9CI lack your European *je ne sais quois*, =E2=80=A6 your *hinky din= ky parlez-vous*.=E2=80=9D>> WB: Doubt Bletchley Park had this much trouble with Colossus. Rinky-dinky Qwerty-vous. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 13:37:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:37:17 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408241253.s7OA3DNj019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NBC-TV movie, *War Stories* (2003) : “I lack your European _je ne sais quois, … your hinky dinky parlez-vous_.” Transmitted in the clear. Check manual if your Enigma clone self-encrypts. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:53 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > JL: <<=E2=80=9CI lack your European *je ne sais quois*, =E2=80=A6 your > *hinky din= > ky parlez-vous*.=E2=80=9D>> > > WB: Doubt Bletchley Park had this much trouble with Colossus. Rinky-dinky > Qwerty-vous. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 17:12:08 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:12:08 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: I invited Tom Dalzell to share with ads-l a few interesting items from his new (and very welcome) book on Vietnam War Slang. Today he sent me the list in the message below. Incidentally, for "Charlie" (= Viet Cong), Dalzell gives eight quotes with the references cited, but I would now add the etymology, which I believe is already well known: "Viet Cong" > "VC" > "Victor Charlie" (in radio-transmission alphabet) > (for short) "Charlie." Again, his list is just a sample, and his book looks like a valuable addition to the study of war slang. Gerald Cohen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang Sorry for the delay. Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: Charlie Country, in Dink Dinky dau Double digit midget FIGMO FNG Freedom bird Gook Graf (verb sense 2) Grunt Hump (verb) Million dollar wound REMF World, the Edgier entries include: Bell Telephone hour Boom Boom Buddhist barbecue BUFE; buffy Carwash Dap Doughnut dolly Flying lessons FTA LBFM Thanks / Tom From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard [mailto:gcohen at mst.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 3:16 PM To: American Dialect Society Cc: Dalzell, Tom Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Slang_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share below with ads-l. "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to share with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better typify the material he came across in his research. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and for the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm surprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a couple places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as marginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 17:35:02 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:35:02 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241712.s7OFlv2D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Doughnut Dolly" was the official Red Cross designation. So it didn't make it to in HDAS. Graf, Buddhist barbecue, flying lessons, carwash? Can't say I've made the acquaintance, though most are easily guessible. While "Charlie" is indeed principally from "Victor Charlie," many people seem to have associated it with the great Chinese detective Charlie Chan. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I invited Tom Dalzell to share with ads-l a few interesting items from his > = > new (and very welcome) book on Vietnam War Slang. Today he sent me the > list= > in the message below. > > Incidentally, for "Charlie" (=3D Viet Cong), Dalzell gives eight quotes > wit= > h the references cited, but I would now add the etymology, which I believe > = > is already well known: "Viet Cong" > "VC" > "Victor Charlie" (in > radio-tran= > smission alphabet) > (for short) "Charlie."=20 > > Again, his list is just a sample, and his book looks like a valuable > additi= > on to the study of war slang. > > Gerald Cohen > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > Sorry for the delay. > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > Charlie > Country, in > Dink > Dinky dau > Double digit midget > FIGMO > FNG > Freedom bird > Gook > Graf (verb sense 2) > Grunt > Hump (verb) > Million dollar wound > REMF > World, the > > Edgier entries include: > > Bell Telephone hour > Boom Boom > Buddhist barbecue > BUFE; buffy > Carwash > Dap > Doughnut dolly > Flying lessons > FTA > LBFM > > > Thanks / Tom=20 > > From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard [mailto:gcohen at mst.edu]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 3:16 PM > To: American Dialect Society > Cc: Dalzell, Tom > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed > = > chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War > Sla= > ng_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) > share= > below with ads-l. > > "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to > sha= > re with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better > ty= > pify the material he came across in his research. > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and > fo= > r the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm > s= > urprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a > coup= > le places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as > m= > arginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. > Than= > ks, Tom= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 18:17:15 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:17:15 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241735.s7OFlvEB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer had auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." G. Cohen > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > Sorry for the delay. > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > Charlie > Country, in > Dink > Dinky dau > Double digit midget > FIGMO > FNG > Freedom bird > Gook > Graf (verb sense 2) > Grunt > Hump (verb) > Million dollar wound > REMF > World, the > > Edgier entries include: > > Bell Telephone hour > Boom Boom > Buddhist barbecue > BUFE; buffy > Carwash > Dap > Doughnut dolly > Flying lessons > FTA > LBFM > > > Thanks / Tom > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 18:48:34 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:48:34 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241817.s7OFlvPd019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'll buy that. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer > ha= > d auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." > > G. Cohen > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > --=3D > > ----- > > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > Sorry for the delay. > > > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > > > Charlie > > Country, in > > Dink > > Dinky dau > > Double digit midget > > FIGMO > > FNG > > Freedom bird > > Gook > > Graf (verb sense 2) > > Grunt > > Hump (verb) > > Million dollar wound > > REMF > > World, the > > > > Edgier entries include: > > > > Bell Telephone hour > > Boom Boom > > Buddhist barbecue > > BUFE; buffy > > Carwash > > Dap > > Doughnut dolly > > Flying lessons > > FTA > > LBFM > > > > > > Thanks / Tom > >= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 18:56:51 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I'll buy that. > > JL Moves it into the "edgier" column, I'd say. LH > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer >> ha= >> d auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." >> >> G. Cohen >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> --=3D >>> ----- >>> >>> From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM >>> To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard >>> Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang >>> >>> Sorry for the delay. >>> >>> Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: >>> >>> Charlie >>> Country, in >>> Dink >>> Dinky dau >>> Double digit midget >>> FIGMO >>> FNG >>> Freedom bird >>> Gook >>> Graf (verb sense 2) >>> Grunt >>> Hump (verb) >>> Million dollar wound >>> REMF >>> World, the >>> >>> Edgier entries include: >>> >>> Bell Telephone hour >>> Boom Boom >>> Buddhist barbecue >>> BUFE; buffy >>> Carwash >>> Dap >>> Doughnut dolly >>> Flying lessons >>> FTA >>> LBFM >>> >>> >>> Thanks / Tom >>> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 20:01:14 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:01:14 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <8D567616828C1C45901EDC8CE21996AB9762A1F2@UM-MBX-T01.um.ums ystem.edu> Message-ID: At 8/24/2014 02:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his >computer had auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." Auto-ana(spelling and)grammarization? JSB >G. Cohen > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ----- > > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > Sorry for the delay. > > > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > > > Charlie > > Country, in > > Dink > > Dinky dau > > Double digit midget > > FIGMO > > FNG > > Freedom bird > > Gook > > Graf (verb sense 2) > > Grunt > > Hump (verb) > > Million dollar wound > > REMF > > World, the > > > > Edgier entries include: > > > > Bell Telephone hour > > Boom Boom > > Buddhist barbecue > > BUFE; buffy > > Carwash > > Dap > > Doughnut dolly > > Flying lessons > > FTA > > LBFM > > > > > > Thanks / Tom > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 24 21:14:31 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:14:31 -0400 Subject: "Circus" in OED2; quotation 1839 In-Reply-To: <791423.61450.bm@smtp111.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Circuses in early 19th C NYC involved trained horses, trick riders, and acrobats. No trained animals, other than the horses. It seems that the first "modern" circus was organized in London by Philip Astley in 1770. He had been a cavalry officer. The first American circus was organized by John Bill Ricketts, who performed before President Washington. (I learn this from Earl Chapin May, *The Circus from Rome to Ringling*, first published in 1931, but which I am reading in the Dover reprint of 1963.) [a puff for Mr. Rickett's Circus] . . . a couple of hours spent thus, from 5 to 7 once or twice a week, is a better way of passing time than smoaking over the bottle and neglecting the fair sex, who are here frequently seen in the highest perfection. The exercise of walking to and from the Circus adds health to the ladies, and gentlemen, who grace the seats and form such a beautiful circuitous picture [that] is in itself a sufficiently interesting spectacle to induce the citizens frequently to visit the place. . . . N-Y D Gazette, September 4, 1793, p. 3, cols. 1-2 Elephants and other exotic animals were displayed independently. The America has brought home an elephant, from Bengal, in perfect health. It is the first ever seen in America, and a very great curiosity. *** This animal is sold for Ten Thousand Dollars. . . . American Minerva, April 16, 1796, p. 3, col. ? [see the elephant for 4 shillings, children 2 shillings] Argus, or Greenleaf’s New D Advertiser, April 25, 1796. [a male camel shown at Broadway & Beaver streets; 2 shillings for grown-ups, 1 shilling for children; illustration] Diary, July 24, 1797, p. 3, col. 5 We understand that the noble elephant, which was exhibited in this town a short time since was shot and killed by some mischievous villain, while entering the town of Alfred, in Maine, on Wednesday night last. N-Y E Post, July 30, 1816, p. 2, col. 5, quoting a Boston paper of July 27 America's first lion-tamer was Isaac Van Ambergh. active from the 1830s. GAT On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > OED2 seems not to have a separate sense for "circus" specifically > referring to exhibition of animals. Sense 2.a speaks of human performers, > other senses under "2. mod." and 3. & ff. are further afield. Should it? > > 2.a has citations from 1792, 1806, and then 1860. The following almost > certainly refers to an animal exhibit. > > 1839 The Knickerbocker, or New-York Monthly Magazine, "Circus", 67. > [Pesumably the article title; presumably on the first page of the article.] > > I have only seen a citation to this, not the Knickbocker text itself. The > citation is in Mizelle, Brett. "'Man Cannot Behold It Without Contemplating > Himself': Monkeys, Apes and Human Identity in the Early American Republic." > Explorations in Early American Culture, A Supplemental Issue of > Pennsylvania History: A Journal of Mid-Atlantic Studies, 66 (1999), page > 171, note 41. > > William Bentley's Diary has two instances of circus, 1809 Feb. 28 and > 1810 March 29, but both clearly refer to exhibitions by human performers. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 21:30:59 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:30:59 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube Message-ID: In an ad, approximately: ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 21:40:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:40:32 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > In an ad, approximately: > > ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 21:42:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:42:23 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242140.s7OKfQvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But more desirable. I think. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on the tube > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > In an ad, approximately: > >=20 > > ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > >=20 > > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > >=20 > > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" > >=20 > > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the = > celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:01:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:01:06 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241735.s7OFlvEB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > While "Charlie" is indeed principally from "Victor Charlie," many people > seem to have associated it with the great Chinese detective Charlie Chan. > That's news to me. But, the restriction of "Charlie Chan," "Chop-Chop" - the token minority comic-relief member of The-otherwise-all-white Blackhawks, some may recall, though, to tell it like it was, even the *white* ethnics that made up the other Blackhawks were clownish dorks compared to their red-blooded, all-Americanly-heroic leader, Blackhawk himself; but poor Chop-Chop was both physically unprepossessing and not allowed to wear the Blackhawk uniform, not that he could possibly have fitted into such sleek, body-hugging, clothing. "Hawk-a-a-a!" - "Ching-Chong," "Chink," etc. to ethnic Chinese and to blacks who are felt to have a certain Asian cast to their features may have been peculiar to the coloreds. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 22:04:38 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:04:38 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/24/2014 05:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >In an ad, approximately: > >?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > >Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > >"bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" What did Paul Bunyan say, or was said about him? And instead of "crap" I would prefer "fart" -- alluding to the crack. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:32:41 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:32:41 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242131.s7OKfQun019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote:- > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" Muhammad Ali used a rhyming version of that expression in 1974. Periodical: Jet Date: September 26, 1974 Article: Foreman and Ali Stage Africa's Biggest Fight Author: Ronald E. Kisner Quote Page: 53 http://books.google.com/books?id=548DAAAAMBAJ&q=thunder#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] I have wrestled with an alligator, tustled with a whale, handcuffed lightning, throwed thunder in jail. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:32:22 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:32:22 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241856.s7OFlvSX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn quoted: > FIGMO Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both from one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" in the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew black *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring prominently in recruitment ads. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:51:03 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:51:03 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242233.s7OKfQ2Z019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notable is the Asian chigger, _Trombicula fujigmo_ (Philip & Fuller, 1950). (FUJIGMO being an elaboration of FIGMO; but unrelated to KMAGYOYO.) JL JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn > quoted: > > > FIGMO > > > Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are > contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both from > one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same > conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) > Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" in > the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew black > *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring > prominently in recruitment ads. > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 23:03:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:03:16 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242251.s7OKfQ5j019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Serendipitously and unrelatedly (but too good to pass over), I find a B-29 Superfortress (Serial No. 42-63435) nicknamed by its crew, "Snafuperfort." JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Notable is the Asian chigger, _Trombicula fujigmo_ (Philip & Fuller, > 1950). > > (FUJIGMO being an elaboration of FIGMO; but unrelated to KMAGYOYO.) > > JL > > > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn > > quoted: > > > > > FIGMO > > > > > > Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are > > contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both > from > > one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same > > conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) > > Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" > in > > the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew > black > > *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring > > prominently in recruitment ads. > > > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 23:05:35 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:05:35 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242140.s7OKfQvT019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the > celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. > Therefore, in fact, not at *all* reminiscent of the old BE catchphrase. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 00:50:38 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:50:38 -0400 Subject: to "own" In-Reply-To: <201408241235.s7OA3DMN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's first > grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" > > "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" > > OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or > merited. Rare. Obs." > > A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. > As Jonathan E. Lighter could own the field of historical American slangology, were he not too modest to acknowledge the accolades of his peers, as well as those of amateurs of the field. Nice, Jon! Though I've oft seen that commercial, my ordinarily-incisive mind failed to pierce to the heart of the matter. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 00:56:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:56:30 -0400 Subject: to "own" In-Reply-To: <201408250051.s7OKfQJR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You were merely distracted by the speaker. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: to "own" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's > first > > grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" > > > > "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" > > > > OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or > > merited. Rare. Obs." > > > > A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. > > > > As Jonathan E. Lighter could own the field of historical American > slangology, were he not too modest to acknowledge the accolades of his > peers, as well as those of amateurs of the field. > > Nice, Jon! Though I've oft seen that commercial, my ordinarily-incisive > mind failed to pierce to the heart of the matter. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 01:08:20 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:08:20 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242232.s7OKfQ2F019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > Muhammad Ali used a rhyming version of that expression in 1974. Yes. But did you know that there is an earlier instance of "different strokes for different folks" that antedates the Cassius Marcellus Clay quote of 1963? ;-) A Study of the Roles of Attitudes and Motivation in Second Language Learning: Final Technical Report, November 25, 1961, Volume 2, by Wallace E. Lambert McGill University, 1961, P.5 " ... different strokes for different folks!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 02:16:45 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:16:45 +0800 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242233.s7OKfQ2P019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, Charlie: <> is patently too transparent for military purposes, so we called it the for RATEL, because it had nothing to do with phonetics and wasn't being used in the North Atlantic, but was however an alphabetic mnemonic in the Phoenician tradition. (Bloody clever deception that, wot-wot!). I been brainwashed with Capitalist catch phrases, like Jolly Green Giant, Mr Clean, Charlie Tuna, so that's what I thunk of back then. (Blacks, drawing from their own cultural perspective, paid respect to Little Brown Brutha with .) -> -> -> -> Charlie, Charlie Cong. The clever deceptive irony of calling one's enemy being lost on lifers, it had to go, leaving only , with added on as a sort of crypto-reduplication. Whiskey Bravo, Short!! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 05:29:30 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 01:29:30 -0400 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" Message-ID: "You're going to get you *pounds* of marijuana, baby! I'm talking about _*elbows*_!" The UD has "elbow : a pound of marijuana" from 2002. An obvious extension of the common pronunciation of the abbr., "lb(s)." as "L B('s)." (My lady wife prefers "lib(s)," which I know as "Librium(s).) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 06:08:45 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 02:08:45 -0400 Subject: Bullshit from the UD Message-ID: "Reggin" "Nigger spelled backwards. Used to trick black people." 2004 Old-timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "nigger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles. In that year, Los Angeles County ended after-sundown access to the beaches. Since black Angelenos normally went to the beach only after sundown - during the day, beaches were neck-deep in white people - this policy removed black people from the beaches as effectively as the Jim Crow laws then in effect from the Jersey Shore to Galveston Island. The explication of this new policy was headlined, "No More Reggins On The Beaches," in the local black tabloid. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Mon Aug 25 13:57:19 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:57:19 +0000 Subject: Bullshit from the UD In-Reply-To: <201408250609.s7P40NNL020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2014, at 02:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: Old-timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "nigger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles.   Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (2005) began its entry with "[1950s+] (US prison)" but offered no evidence for the 1950s or prison usage.  It also claimed, dubiously, "there are no racist overtones".  Hopefully nobody's been so foolish as to rely on that: "In August 2007, the Commission settled for $44,000 a lawsuit against a California medical clinic, alleging that a White supervisor used racial code words, such as 'reggin' ('nigger' spelled backwards), to debase and intimidate an African American file clerk and then fired her after she complained. The clinic also agreed to incorporate a zero-tolerance policy concerning discriminatory harassment and retaliation into its internal EEO and anti-harassment policies. EEOC v. Robert G. Aptekar, M.D., d/b/a Arthritis & Orthopedic Medical Clinic, Civ. No. C06-4808 MHP (N.D. Cal. consent decree filed Aug. 20, 2007)." http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm There's a number of hits on Google books, and the word also shows up in pseudo-African American dialect in jokes and fiction to render "reckon"... possibly(?) the authors of such pieces had considered what it was backwards, e.g. see column four: http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887%20-%200648.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 14:10:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:10:18 -0400 Subject: Bullshit from the UD In-Reply-To: <201408251357.s7PDvB1D020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The new etymolomythology of "reckon": [euphem. for _reggin_, reversal of n-----, used to trick Black people; cf. _niggardly_, falsely claimed to mean 'stingy'] JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Christopher Philippo > Subject: Re: Bullshit from the UD > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 25, 2014, at 02:09 AM, Wilson Gray > wrote:=0AOld-= > timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "n= > igger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles.=0A=A0=0ACassell's Dictionary o= > f Slang (2005) began its entry with "[1950s+] (US prison)" but offered no = > evidence for the 1950s or prison usage. =A0It also claimed, dubiously,=A0"= > there are no racist overtones". =A0Hopefully nobody's been so foolish as t= > o rely on that:=0A=0A"In August 2007, the Commission settled for $44,000 a= > lawsuit against a California medical clinic, alleging that a White superv= > isor used racial code words, such as 'reggin' ('nigger' spelled backwards)= > , to debase and intimidate an African American file clerk and then fired h= > er after she complained. The clinic also agreed to incorporate a zero-tole= > rance policy concerning discriminatory harassment and retaliation into its= > internal EEO and anti-harassment policies. EEOC v. Robert G. Aptekar, M.D= > ., d/b/a Arthritis & Orthopedic Medical Clinic, Civ. No. C06-4808 MHP (N.D= > . Cal. consent decree filed Aug. 20, 2007)."=0Ahttp:// > www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/in= > itiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm=0A=0AThere's a number of hits on Google > book= > s, and the word also shows up in pseudo-African American dialect in jokes = > and fiction to render "reckon"... possibly(?) the authors of such pieces h= > ad considered what it was backwards, e.g. see column four: http://fultonhi > = > story.com/Newspapers%2021/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch/Saint%20Pari= > s%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%20= > 1882-1887%20-%200648.pdf= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 15:14:06 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:14:06 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408221945.s7MIudIb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Reporter in Ferguson: "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." No OED, no DARE. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > JSB > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > > mass > > > > more > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > against" > > > > or > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if > > so it > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. > Any > > > > ethnic > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > > > likely > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > experience > > > > of > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > complaint to > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 25 15:46:43 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:46:43 +0000 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE This was in use as far back as 1981 at the Univ of Tn, Knoxville. (Not that I ever had any reason to use the term myself, you understand -- it was friends who said it. Yeah, that's it.) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:30 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "You're going to get you *pounds* of marijuana, baby! I'm talking about > _*elbows*_!" > > The UD has > > "elbow : a pound of marijuana" > > from 2002. > > An obvious extension of the common pronunciation of the abbr., "lb(s)." > as "L B('s)." > > (My lady wife prefers "lib(s)," which I know as "Librium(s).) > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 16:58:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:58:32 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408251514.s7PEqlB5020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." I.e., the funeral service. JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > No OED, no DARE. > > JL > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > > > mass > > > > > more > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > > against" > > > > > or > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but > if > > > so it > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. > > Any > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree > of > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > readers...most > > > > > likely > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > experience > > > > > of > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > complaint to > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 25 17:20:58 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: not so green as... Message-ID: On one of the Inspector Lewis episodes in the BBC/PBS Masterpiece Mystery series, Lewis tells Det. Sgt. Hathaway (who has just acknowledging copying a key notebook before returning it), "You're not so green as you're cabbage looking". A new one on me (I had to rewind to make sure that's what he said), but upon Google I've learned that it's "an old Yorkshire saying" that seems not to have made it across the pond. I'm sure Michael Q. can trace its genealogy for us... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.quinion at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Aug 25 18:10:49 2014 From: michael.quinion at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:10:49 +0100 Subject: not so green as... In-Reply-To: <201408251721.s7PGYIht020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > On one of the Inspector Lewis episodes in the BBC/PBS Masterpiece > Mystery series, Lewis tells Det. Sgt. Hathaway (who has just > acknowledging copying a key notebook before returning it), "You're not > so green as you're cabbage looking". A new one on me (I had to rewind > to make sure that's what he said), but upon Google I've learned that > it's "an old Yorkshire saying" that seems not to have made it across the > pond. I'm sure Michael Q. can trace its genealogy for us... Aha! A challenge. I shall begin work at once ... -- Michael Quinion World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 19:48:40 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:48:40 -0400 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408251546.s7PEqlX5020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > Not that I ever had any reason to use the term myself, you understand Yeah, right. I've heard about you, man. When Bill Mullins feels low, he gets high, yo! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 25 21:38:45 2014 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Baron, Dennis E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:38:45 +0000 Subject: The right to be forgotten Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: The internet is a place where, without even trying, words achieve immortality. Once posted, even the most frivolous thoughts are automatically copied, archived, and indexed. To be sure, the web can be ephemeral. Studies show that much online information is short-lived, with up to eighty-five percent disappearing within a year. And we’ve all had the frustration of failing to find something that we read online just the week before. But words do have permanence. Back in the first century BCE, the Roman poet Horace advised young writers not to put their words out into the world too soon: nescit vox missa reverti, ‘the word, once sent, can never be recalled.’ Today that advice would be, 'an email once sent . . . .' There is simply no “undo.” Horace 2.0 would warn, ‘The internet never forgets.’ But a recent decision by the European Court of Justice (ECJ) tries to do just that, make the internet forget, because, according to the Court, everyone has the right to be forgotten. . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language: http://bit.ly/weblan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Mon Aug 25 22:52:32 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:52:32 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Message-ID: "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 23:08:31 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <201408252252.s7PL0rdn020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: > A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, > in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had > an easy job: > > - A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the parson_ had an easy job: -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 00:40:22 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:40:22 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's true, the speaker was not complaining that his own job was too easy. John Baker > On Aug 25, 2014, at 7:10 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: >> >> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had >> an easy job: > > - > > A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, > in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the > parson_ > had an easy job: > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 26 00:47:14 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:47:14 -0400 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Baker, John wrote: > It's true, the speaker was not complaining that his own job was too easy. Because he wasn't as green as he was cabbage looking. LH > > >> On Aug 25, 2014, at 7:10 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: >>> >>> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >>> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had >>> an easy job: >> >> - >> >> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the >> parson_ >> had an easy job: >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 08:16:38 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:16:38 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Baker, John Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 10:51:32 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:51:32 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <1409040997552.30477@duke.edu> Message-ID: Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Baker, John Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 11:08:44 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:08:44 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Subject: "Bob's your uncle" antedating (Glaswegian?) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:18:29 -0400 item 093898 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910E&L=ADS-L&P=R1116&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches and Subject: "Bob's your uncle" maybe antedated to 1924? Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:37:47 +0000 item 127919 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1308A&L=ADS-L&P=R2409&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John [...] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:51 AM To: ...Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society ... On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM ... Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society...on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 11:43:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:43:30 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408251658.s7PGYIUH020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Pastor in Ferguson: "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." "in awe" = shocked. JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > I.e., the funeral service. > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > pseudo-sociological > > > > mass > > > > > > more > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > > > against" > > > > > > or > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, > but > > if > > > > so it > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > assertion. > > > Any > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > degree > > of > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > readers...most > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > > experience > > > > > > of > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 11:56:29 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:56:29 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408261143.s7QBMNgJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe "amazed" is closer to what he was thinking. Amazement is pretty necessary to awe. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pastor in Ferguson: > > "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a > recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." > > "in awe" = shocked. > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > > > I.e., the funeral service. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > > pseudo-sociological > > > > > mass > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or > "discriminated > > > > > against" > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, > > but > > > if > > > > > so it > > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > > assertion. > > > > Any > > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > > degree > > > of > > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > > readers...most > > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > > > experience > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > handle > > > the > > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 12:10:51 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:10:51 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <1409051323856.90050@duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks. I don't know why my search didn't find these posts. However, I was able to confirm the 1924 dating and add quite a bit to the history from 1924 to 1937, so I think my contribution was not the waste I feared. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 7:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Yes Subject: "Bob's your uncle" antedating (Glaswegian?) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:18:29 -0400 item 093898 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910E&L=ADS-L&P=R1116&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches and Subject: "Bob's your uncle" maybe antedated to 1924? Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:37:47 +0000 item 127919 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1308A&L=ADS-L&P=R2409&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John [...] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:51 AM To: ...Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society ... On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM ... Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society...on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 12:35:06 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:35:06 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course your contribution was not a waste. I agree with you, for example, in doubting the proposed origin involving Robert Cecil. Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 8:10 AM ... Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Thanks. I don't know why my search didn't find these posts. However, I was able to confirm the 1924 dating and add quite a bit to the history from 1924 to 1937, so I think my contribution was not the waste I feared. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 14:15:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408261156.s7QBMNjt000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Startling new audio details the shooting." All it does it provide additional details: the sound of shots. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe "amazed" is closer to what he was thinking. > > Amazement is pretty necessary to awe. > > JL > > > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Pastor in Ferguson: > > > > "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a > > recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." > > > > "in awe" = shocked. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > > > > > I.e., the funeral service. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > > > pseudo-sociological > > > > > > mass > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or > > "discriminated > > > > > > against" > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats > me, > > > but > > > > if > > > > > > so it > > > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > > > assertion. > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > > > degree > > > > of > > > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > > > readers...most > > > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the > persistent > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to > Jacques > > > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > > > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a > strange > > > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > > handle > > > > the > > > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > handle > > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 14:18:48 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:18:48 -0400 Subject: -peat Message-ID: "Modern Family had just five-peated as best comedy." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 16:15:55 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:15:55 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have > the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is > t o make them nervous. > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred to delirium tremens (DTs). A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the willies referred to the DTs. [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] Hasn't Got 'Willies," And He's Hot After His "Esteemed Contemporary." CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- tion of character. Editor Roberts in commenting on an article that appeared in the Times states that Mr. Morris had the "willies." The amount of damage that will be asked for is $100,000. [End excerpt] The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a frightening appearance and warned his friend. The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period of abstinence. [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP http://books.google.com/books?id=ngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=+willys#v=snippet [Begin excerpt] Thought They "Had 'em." TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with the Roman nose. "What!" ejaculated the man with the full beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to happen?" "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe side. I thought last night it had happened. I think so yet." "What - the willys?" asked he of the beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- tuck. [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' "'What's the matter? I asked. "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to get away. I made up my mind he had 'em --you know--the willys. I made him walk along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps when we saw something coming. It was dressed like a man, but was as thin as a skeleton. It went past us quietly. [End excerpt] In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano and Hamilton felt remorse. [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 http://books.google.com/books?id=U-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=willies#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] He stood dazed. What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune and give us something spicy." "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 17:14:32 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 13:14:32 -0400 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: <201408232118.s7NGj1Jl019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > > In an article about a high school football game in the Huntsville Times. http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/113/not/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 26 18:56:50 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:56:50 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240341.s7O2TgwJ019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole has provided some nice citations showing early uses of "the willies." Looking a bit more, I have found other citations in the nineteenth century that talk about the Willies as supernatural beings. In addition to these, a few more nineteenth-century citations can be found for "the villies" on Google Books (http://bit.ly/1zzMK4b). In 1841, the opera "Giselle, or The Wilis" (or "La Giselle") was first performed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giselle) in Paris. Wikipedia says the idea of the wilis in the opera comes from "Elementargeister" (1837) by Heinrich Heine and "Les Orientales" (1828 or 1829) by Victor Hugo. Wikipedia says the opera was "hugely popular," staged across Europe, Russia and the US. "La Giselle" appears in "Beauties of the Opera and Ballet" (not dated), and the word "Wilis" appears on five pages (http://bit.ly/1vjqMoi). In 1846, "The Knickerbocker: Or, New-York Monthly Magazine," vol. 27 has a review of "Giselle" with mention of the Willies (http://bit.ly/YWuCWT), and "The Pioneer: Or, California Monthly Magazine" does the same in 1854 (http://bit.ly/VPIvnC). In 1848, "The Gentleman's Magazine" mentions the Wilis as being "the most peculiar images of Servian [i.e., Serbian] fantasy" (http://bit.ly/1rxZrht). In 1862, "The Queen of the Danube: A Story of Montenegro" by X.B. Saintine, translated from French by Anne T. Wood, mentions the Willies as being Servian (http://bit.ly/1qqlN1w). The wilis tale is told in "A Norseman's Pilgrimage" (1875) by Hjalmar Hjorth Boyesen with the spelling "Willies" (http://bit.ly/1qqh3sN). In 1879, the Extravaganzas of J.R. Planché, esq., mentions the Wilis (http://bit.ly/YWvElU). FWIW, there is also "a general meeting of the Willies o' the Wisp" in "London Society," vol. 11 (1867) (http://bit.ly/1q2i76n), and in 1883, there is mention of birds called "willies" in "The Sunday Magazine" (http://bit.ly/1wxXC6j). Still no direct tie to the expression "the willies," but it seems clear that the willies/villies were well known as supernatural beings throughout at least most of the nineteenth century. Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The Inspector, Literary Magazine and Review, Volume 2, London: 1827, has = > a story called "The Willi-Dance. / An Hungarian Legend." and says = > (http://bit.ly/1ps7xFC): > > ----- > More than all, loved Emelka to hear the legend of the Willi-dance, which = > the crone always thus began=97" Every maiden "who dies, when she is = > betrothed, is called a Willi. The Willies wander "restless on the earth, = > and hold their nightly dances wherever roads "meet; if any man then = > meets them, they dance with him till he dies; "he is then the bridegroom = > of the youngest Willi, who thereby at last "is enabled to rest; such a = > one is my sister. Ah! often have I seen "her in the moon-beam,"=97and = > then followed the tale of the lover, the sorrows and the death of the = > poor young maiden. In stories like this, of the region of spirits, the = > luckless Emelka sought to forget the bitterness of earthly suffering. > ----- > > See also = > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_folklore. > > I have no proof that this is the origin, but it certainly seems like a = > good starting point. > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > > On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = > wrote: > >> This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted = > material=3D >> from OED3; maybe that's what made my >> =20 >> first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have = > the =3D >> willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> =20 >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' = > is t=3D >> o make them nervous. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? >> =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 26 19:04:14 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 19:04:14 +0000 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261615.s7QFCiQd000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done some checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin "willies", viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that goes by several names. Wikipedia writes: '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter"... is a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, Canada, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into the forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many variants of the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry Polly but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, he is haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English ballad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven Harvey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says: '“Come go along with me,” Willie insists as he leads Polly into the woods, “before we get married some pleasure to see.” She is reluctant and afraid, bearing that he will lead her “poor body astray.” ‘There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in what Polly says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with the most chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the perfect foil to her naïveté. “Oh Polly, pretty Polly, you’re guessin’ about right,” he says,...“I dug on your grave the best part of the night.”’ This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if his name was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By this interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary development. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:15 AM, wrote: Gerald Cohen wrote: > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have > the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is > t o make them nervous. > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred to delirium tremens (DTs). A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the willies referred to the DTs. [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] Hasn't Got 'Willies," And He's Hot After His "Esteemed Contemporary." CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- tion of character. Editor Roberts in commenting on an article that appeared in the Times states that Mr. Morris had the "willies." The amount of damage that will be asked for is $100,000. [End excerpt] The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a frightening appearance and warned his friend. The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period of abstinence. [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP http://books.google.com/books?id=ngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=+willys#v=snippet [Begin excerpt] Thought They "Had 'em." TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with the Roman nose. "What!" ejaculated the man with the full beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to happen?" "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe side. I thought last night it had happened. I think so yet." "What - the willys?" asked he of the beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- tuck. [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' "'What's the matter? I asked. "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to get away. I made up my mind he had 'em --you know--the willys. I made him walk along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps when we saw something coming. It was dressed like a man, but was as thin as a skeleton. It went past us quietly. [End excerpt] In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano and Hamilton felt remorse. [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 http://books.google.com/books?id=U-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=willies#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] He stood dazed. What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune and give us something spicy." "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 26 19:27:39 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:27:39 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261904.s7QIcOpv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. BB On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done some = > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin "willies", = > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that goes= > by several names. Wikipedia writes: > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter"... i= > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, Cana= > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into the = > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many variants of = > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry Poll= > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, he i= > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English ball= > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven Harv= > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=20 > '=93Come go along with me,=94 Willie insists as he leads Polly into the= > woods, =93before we get married some pleasure to see.=94 She is reluctant= > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =93poor body astray.=94 = > = > =20 > =91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in what Poll= > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with the m= > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the perf= > ect foil to her na=EFvet=E9. =93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, you=92re guessin= > =92 about right,=94 he says,...=93I dug on your grave the best part of the = > night.=94=92=20 > > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if his n= > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By this= > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary development= > .=20 > > Gerald Cohen=20 > ________________________________________ > > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:= > 15 AM, wrote:=20 > > Gerald Cohen wrote: >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is >> t o make them nervous. >> >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred > to delirium tremens (DTs). > > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the > willies referred to the DTs. > > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] > > [Begin excerpt] > Hasn't Got 'Willies," > > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed > Contemporary." > > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- > tion of character. Editor Roberts in > commenting on an article that appeared > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had > the "willies." The amount of damage > that will be asked for is $100,000. > [End excerpt] > > > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a > frightening appearance and warned his friend. > > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period > of abstinence. > > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] > > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D+willys#v=3Dsnippet > > [Begin excerpt] > Thought They "Had 'em." > > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE > > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with > the Roman nose. > > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to > happen?" > > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe > side. I thought last night it had happened. > I think so yet." > > "What - the willys?" asked he of the > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- > tuck. > [End excerpt] > > [Begin excerpt] > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' > "'What's the matter? I asked. > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em > --you know--the willys. I made him walk > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps > when we saw something coming. It was > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a > skeleton. It went past us quietly. > [End excerpt] > > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano > and Hamilton felt remorse. > > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] > > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3Dwillies#v=3Dsnippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > He stood dazed. > > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune > and give us something spicy." > > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" > > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. > [End excerpt] > > Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 20:03:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:03:23 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261927.s7QIcO6b000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Any connection between Gosport Willie and "the willies" is clearly fanciful. Who on earth would pluralize the proper name of a murderer in a ballad and then attach it to the DTs? HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be pretty rare. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the > willies" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" = > (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems = > to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. = > BB > > On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = > wrote: > > >=20 > > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done = > some =3D > > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin = > "willies", =3D > > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that = > goes=3D > > by several names. Wikipedia writes: > > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's = > Carpenter"... i=3D > > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, = > Cana=3D > > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. > > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into = > the =3D > > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many = > variants of =3D > > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry = > Poll=3D > > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, = > he i=3D > > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' > > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English = > ball=3D > > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven = > Harv=3D > > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=3D20 > > '=3D93Come go along with me,=3D94 Willie insists as he leads Polly = > into the=3D > > woods, =3D93before we get married some pleasure to see.=3D94 She is = > reluctant=3D > > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =3D93poor body astray.=3D94 = > =3D > > = > =3D > > = > =3D20 > > =3D91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in = > what Poll=3D > > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with = > the m=3D > > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the = > perf=3D > > ect foil to her na=3DEFvet=3DE9. =3D93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, = > you=3D92re guessin=3D > > =3D92 about right,=3D94 he says,...=3D93I dug on your grave the best = > part of the =3D > > night.=3D94=3D92=3D20 > >=20 > > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if = > his n=3D > > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By = > this=3D > > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary = > development=3D > > .=3D20 > >=20 > > Gerald Cohen=3D20 > > ________________________________________ > >=20 > > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, = > 2014 11:=3D > > 15 AM, wrote:=3D20 > >=20 > > Gerald Cohen wrote: > >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in = > "give/have > >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > >>=20 > >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the = > willies' is > >> t o make them nervous. > >>=20 > >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > >=20 > > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred > > to delirium tremens (DTs). > >=20 > > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper > > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of > > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other > > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full > > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I > > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the > > willies referred to the DTs. > >=20 > > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote > > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > Hasn't Got 'Willies," > >=20 > > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed > > Contemporary." > >=20 > > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - > > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this > > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- > > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- > > tion of character. Editor Roberts in > > commenting on an article that appeared > > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had > > the "willies." The amount of damage > > that will be asked for is $100,000. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > >=20 > > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two > > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were > > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". > > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a > > frightening appearance and warned his friend. > >=20 > > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was > > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair > > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of > > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period > > of abstinence. > >=20 > > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They > > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column > > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] > >=20 > > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D3D+willys#v=3D3Dsnip= > pet > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > Thought They "Had 'em." > >=20 > > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES > > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE > >=20 > > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with > > the Roman nose. > >=20 > > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full > > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to > > happen?" > >=20 > > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking > > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe > > side. I thought last night it had happened. > > I think so yet." > >=20 > > "What - the willys?" asked he of the > > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- > > tuck. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' > > "'What's the matter? I asked. > > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to > > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em > > --you know--the willys. I made him walk > > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps > > when we saw something coming. It was > > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a > > skeleton. It went past us quietly. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named > > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with > > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at > > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano > > and Hamilton felt remorse. > >=20 > > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 > > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two > > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, > > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] > >=20 > > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3Dwillies#v=3D3Dsnip= > pet& > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > He stood dazed. > >=20 > > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a > > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune > > and give us something spicy." > >=20 > > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" > >=20 > > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The > > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 22:47:08 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 18:47:08 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." Message-ID: Better or worse than "I had a baby skunk who's name was Pepe"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 00:22:01 2014 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 20:22:01 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408262247.s7QKvVLT000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As an utterance, fine. But in writing it needs a semi-colon. Barbara Barbara Need Etna On 26 Aug 2014, at 6:47 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Better or worse than > > "I had a baby skunk who's name was Pepe"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 00:35:06 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 08:35:06 +0800 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270022.s7QNoJkb000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Prescriptive S&M: Humiliation & Schadenfreude in the classroom. Mmm ... Feels so good. Do it again. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 27 01:31:25 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:31:25 -0400 Subject: "Hurdy-Gurdy" Message-ID: Hoboken. -- The houses of refreshment in Hoboken were jammed at intervals with transient visitors, . . . and indeed we have never witnessed a more lively scene than that which presented itself along the various walks and pathways to the Sybil's Cave, and the large saloon still further on, at which extremity was placed, in the middle of an open space, a "roundabout," or properly termed a "Hurdy-Gurdy". . . . At the further end of the saloon stood a "locomotive theatre," which furnished lots of fun for the folks who thronged that vicinity. Entombed within its walls were wonders never before offered to the community. NY Herald, July 6, 1845, p. 1, cols. 1-5 [from a summary of the celebrations on the 4th] The definitions of "hurdy-gurdy" in the OED start with*1 a.* A musical instrument of rustic origin resembling the lute or guitar, and having strings (two or more of which are tuned so as to produce a drone), which are sounded by the revolution of a rosined wheel turned by the left hand, the notes of the melody being obtained by the action of keys which ‘stop’ the strings and are played by the right hand; thus combining the characteristics of instruments of the bowed and the clavier kinds. and include hurdy-gurdy house n. *N. Amer. Hist.* a disreputable type of cheap dance-hall. 1866 *Beadle's Monthly* Oct. 280/1 Hurdy-gurdy houses, with dancing~girls, music, and long bars. 1874 T. B. Aldrich *Prudence Palfrey* vii. 115 At sundown the dance-house would open,—the Hurdy-Gurdy House, as it was called. *roundabout 4.* orig. and chiefly *Brit.* *a.* A revolving machine or apparatus on which people (esp. children) may ride for amusement, *spec.* one in a fairground or playground; = merry-go-round n. 1 . 1763 *Brit. Mag.* *4* 50 There was a round-about for children to ride in, and all sorts of toys sold as at other fairs. 1795 C. Este *Journey through Flanders* 53 There is a round-about as in the apparatus for second childhood at Chantilli. 1813 *Sporting Mag.* *42* 20 There were the usual swings, ups-and-downs and roundabouts. 1874 *35th Rep. Prisons in Scotl.* 220 A recreation ground is prepared for the warders' children, and fitted with swings, see-saws, and roundabouts. Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. Caution is necessary in not standing too near. N-Y D Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 Melancholy Accident. -- We regret to learn that a young man and a child were yesterday seriously injured by being run over by one of the cars on the circular railway upon the lawn at Hoboken. N-Y Spectator, September 4, 1834, p. 1, col. 4 The circular swing and the flying horses were put in motion; the "Schiller band" raised their sturdy chorus; and the Gymnasts exhibited their agility in all manly feats. N-Y D Tribune, May 21, 1850, p. 1, col. 3 -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 27 01:44:17 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:44:17 -0400 Subject: "Hurdy-Gurdy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks: This message got sent very prematurely. I intended to point out that the musical instrument did require a turning motion in playing it, and that "hurdy-gurdy house" at least referred to a place; and that the recreation grounds at Hoboken did offer a roundabout. But on the whole, the passage seems to indicate a peculiar confusion on the part of the writer. The roundabout *wasn't* otherwise known as a hurdy-gurdy. The second item from the notes on Hoboken's roundabout (from 1834) shows the unfortunate fact that not everyone heeds good advice, such as that offered by the Daily Advertiser in 1831. GAT On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 9:31 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Hoboken. -- The houses of refreshment in Hoboken were jammed > at intervals with transient visitors, . . . and indeed we have never > witnessed a more lively scene than that which presented itself along the > various walks and pathways to the Sybil's Cave, and the large saloon still > further on, at which extremity was placed, in the middle of an open space, > a "roundabout," or properly termed a "Hurdy-Gurdy". . . . At the further > end of the saloon stood a "locomotive theatre," which furnished lots of fun > for the folks who thronged that vicinity. Entombed within its walls were > wonders never before offered to the community. > NY Herald, July 6, 1845, p. 1, cols. 1-5 [from a summary of > the celebrations on the 4th] > > The definitions of "hurdy-gurdy" in the OED start with *1 a.* A musical > instrument of rustic origin resembling the lute or guitar, and having > strings (two or more of which are tuned so as to produce a drone), which > are sounded by the revolution of a rosined wheel turned by the left hand, > the notes of the melody being obtained by the action of keys which ‘stop’ > the strings and are played by the right hand; thus combining the > characteristics of instruments of the bowed and the clavier kinds. > and include > hurdy-gurdy house n. *N. Amer. Hist.* a disreputable type of cheap > dance-hall. > 1866 *Beadle's Monthly* Oct. 280/1 Hurdy-gurdy houses, with > dancing~girls, music, and long bars. > 1874 T. B. Aldrich *Prudence Palfrey* vii. 115 At sundown the > dance-house would open,—the Hurdy-Gurdy House, as it was called. > > > > *roundabout 4.* orig. and chiefly *Brit.* > > *a.* A revolving machine or apparatus on which people (esp. children) > may ride for amusement, *spec.* one in a fairground or playground; = > merry-go-round n. 1 . > 1763 *Brit. Mag.* *4* 50 There was a round-about for children to ride > in, and all sorts of toys sold as at other fairs. > 1795 C. Este *Journey through Flanders* 53 There is a round-about as > in the apparatus for second childhood at Chantilli. > 1813 *Sporting Mag.* *42* 20 There were the usual swings, > ups-and-downs and roundabouts. > 1874 *35th Rep. Prisons in Scotl.* 220 A recreation ground is > prepared for the warders' children, and fitted with swings, see-saws, and > roundabouts. > > > Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has > constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds > adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant > spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 > feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable > of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who > turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The > circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. > > Caution is necessary in not standing too near. > N-Y D Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 > > Melancholy Accident. -- We regret to learn that a young man > and a child were yesterday seriously injured by being run over by one of > the cars on the circular railway upon the lawn at Hoboken. > N-Y Spectator, September 4, 1834, p. 1, col. 4 > > The circular swing and the flying horses were put in motion; > the "Schiller band" raised their sturdy chorus; and the Gymnasts exhibited > their agility in all manly feats. > N-Y D Tribune, May 21, 1850, p. 1, col. 3 > > -- > George A. Thompson > The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998.. > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 01:52:50 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:52:50 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270035.s7QNoJmv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:35 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Prescriptive S&M: Humiliation & Schadenfreude in the classroom. Mmm ... > Feels so good. Do it again. > The sentence was posted to Facebook by an adult responding to a photo of a baby skunk. My own WAG is that the writer has hypercorrected "whose" to "his" in writing, as opposed to those who hypercorrect "whose" to "who's." A further WAG is that English classes are no longer concerned with the trivialities of spelling, since, WTF?, the point is communication. Surely, no one who reads the sentence in context can possibly fail to grasp its meaning. Unless, perhaps, the context was a service contract. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:06:33 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:06:33 +0800 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408262003.s7QIcOXX000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, < They rise from their tombs at night to seek vengeance, and if any man is unlucky enough to encounter them, he is forced to dance till he drops dead from exhaustion. This legend formed the basis of the popular 19th-century ballet Giselle.>> http://www.aaronshep.com/stories/011.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:33:42 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 22:33:42 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" Message-ID: The name of a country-music group. "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook Etc. Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of what I thought I was hearing. "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:45:50 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:45:50 +0800 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270153.s7QNoJ7v000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 1 <<"I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe.">> 2 <> 3 <> 4 <> The vox populi cries out for the comma splice, it feel so-o-o-o good. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 03:00:26 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 23:00:26 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408262003.s7QIcOXZ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Based on comments and citations provided by Benjamin, Jerry, WB and JL I think that the development of a slang association between "the willies" and "delirium tremens" would be natural; there is a shared set of denotations and connotations. Supernatural spirits/creatures: fear, hallucinations, madness Murderous entities: fear, paranoia Dancing and coerced dancing: trembling, spasms, uncontrolled motions Perhaps phrases such as: "I have seen the willies", "the willies have me", "I am becoming a willie", "save me from the willies" were shortened to "the willies" or "I have the willies". (You can tell I am not a linguist, and this is an amateur analysis.) The citations connecting "the willies" with "the DTs" occurred a few years before the citations in which "the willies" were connected to the less extreme state of nervous apprehension. Of course, this might be an artifact of a limited sample of published instances. But I think it is plausible that the existence of "the DTs" sense led to the emergence of "nervous apprehension" sense. JL wrote: ...the DTs... HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be pretty rare. Here is another citation suggesting that the DTs sense did survive to modern times: Year: 1978 Title: Basic Psychiatry for Corrections Workers Author: Henry L. Hartman Quote Page 23 Publisher: Charles C. Thomas, Springfield, Illinois (Google Books Snippet View; data may be inaccurate) [Begin extracted text] The first of the alcoholic psychoses to have any significance for corrections workers is Delirium Tremens (291.0). This is that alcoholic condition popularly known as DTs, the "shakes", the "horrors", the "willies", the "heebee-jeebies", the "terrors", the "screaming meemies", etc. There is almost always a long history of heavy alcoholic consumption before delirium tremens develops. [End extracted text] Garson On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Any connection between Gosport Willie and "the willies" is clearly fanciful. > > Who on earth would pluralize the proper name of a murderer in a ballad and > then attach it to the DTs? > > HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be > pretty rare. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the >> willies" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" = >> (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems = >> to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. = >> BB >> >> On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = >> wrote: >> >> >=20 >> > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done = >> some =3D >> > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin = >> "willies", =3D >> > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that = >> goes=3D >> > by several names. Wikipedia writes: >> > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's = >> Carpenter"... i=3D >> > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, = >> Cana=3D >> > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. >> > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into = >> the =3D >> > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many = >> variants of =3D >> > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry = >> Poll=3D >> > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, = >> he i=3D >> > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' >> > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English = >> ball=3D >> > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven = >> Harv=3D >> > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=3D20 >> > '=3D93Come go along with me,=3D94 Willie insists as he leads Polly = >> into the=3D >> > woods, =3D93before we get married some pleasure to see.=3D94 She is = >> reluctant=3D >> > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =3D93poor body astray.=3D94 = >> =3D >> > = >> =3D >> > = >> =3D20 >> > =3D91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in = >> what Poll=3D >> > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with = >> the m=3D >> > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the = >> perf=3D >> > ect foil to her na=3DEFvet=3DE9. =3D93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, = >> you=3D92re guessin=3D >> > =3D92 about right,=3D94 he says,...=3D93I dug on your grave the best = >> part of the =3D >> > night.=3D94=3D92=3D20 >> >=20 >> > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if = >> his n=3D >> > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By = >> this=3D >> > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary = >> development=3D >> > .=3D20 >> >=20 >> > Gerald Cohen=3D20 >> > ________________________________________ >> >=20 >> > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, = >> 2014 11:=3D >> > 15 AM, wrote:=3D20 >> >=20 >> > Gerald Cohen wrote: >> >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in = >> "give/have >> >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> >>=20 >> >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the = >> willies' is >> >> t o make them nervous. >> >>=20 >> >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? >> >=20 >> > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred >> > to delirium tremens (DTs). >> >=20 >> > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper >> > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of >> > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other >> > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full >> > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I >> > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the >> > willies referred to the DTs. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote >> > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > Hasn't Got 'Willies," >> >=20 >> > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed >> > Contemporary." >> >=20 >> > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - >> > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this >> > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- >> > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- >> > tion of character. Editor Roberts in >> > commenting on an article that appeared >> > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had >> > the "willies." The amount of damage >> > that will be asked for is $100,000. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two >> > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were >> > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". >> > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a >> > frightening appearance and warned his friend. >> >=20 >> > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was >> > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair >> > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of >> > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period >> > of abstinence. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They >> > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column >> > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] >> >=20 >> > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP >> > = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D3D+willys#v=3D3Dsnip= >> pet >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > Thought They "Had 'em." >> >=20 >> > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES >> > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE >> >=20 >> > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with >> > the Roman nose. >> >=20 >> > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full >> > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to >> > happen?" >> >=20 >> > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking >> > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe >> > side. I thought last night it had happened. >> > I think so yet." >> >=20 >> > "What - the willys?" asked he of the >> > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- >> > tuck. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' >> > "'What's the matter? I asked. >> > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to >> > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em >> > --you know--the willys. I made him walk >> > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps >> > when we saw something coming. It was >> > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a >> > skeleton. It went past us quietly. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named >> > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with >> > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at >> > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano >> > and Hamilton felt remorse. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 >> > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two >> > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, >> > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] >> >=20 >> > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 >> > = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3Dwillies#v=3D3Dsnip= >> pet& >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > He stood dazed. >> >=20 >> > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a >> > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune >> > and give us something spicy." >> >=20 >> > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" >> >=20 >> > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The >> > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 03:11:01 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 23:11:01 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd heard about epenthetic L's for some time (Bryan Gick, a phonologist now head of department at UBC, used to post about them here and wrote them up in his Yale dissertation), but I had never witnessed any first hand--with Rs yes, hard to live in New England and not, but not with Ls--until I heard an audiobook of Patti Smith, from a Philly and South Jersey working-class background, reading her wonderful memoir about coming of age in New York (featuring Robert Mapplethorpe, with guest appearances by Janis Joplin, Andy Warhol, Allen Ginsberg, and the rest of the crew) from the 1960s to the 1980s. Both she and Mapplethorpe did a lot of "drawling"--not the southern kind, but the drawlings on paper that you use drawling pencils for. And yes, they would also "drawl" when there was no gerund or participle around. Lots of other local pronunciations ("window" and "pillow" have clear terminal schwas), but nothing as striking to me as the intervocalic and final L's after /O/, precisely in "hog mawl" type contexts. Also in "external sandhi" contexts, e.g. "we sawl it". LH On Aug 26, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The name of a country-music group. > > "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title > > "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com > > "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook > > Etc. > > Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of > "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had > occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of what I > thought I was hearing. > > "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a > nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 03:20:35 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 11:20:35 +0800 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: <201408261714.s7QGXPwv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Years ago, on Sunset Boulevard, spotted license plate c.1985: <2BR02B>. OIC Vonnegut 1962 short story, 2. (22.8K) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 07:14:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 03:14:06 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408270311.s7QNoJQR000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's a blues song in which the singer tells us that the police "took my reefuh-l-out my hand." And an R&B group tells us that they have "roaches [the insects] on my taber." Some black sneakers - even some of my own relatives, if you can feature that! - have a rule that takes the indefinite article "a" and shwa in structures like "one uh these, wanna, gonna, gotta, need a" to syllabic "r." A vehh wee-ud typer hypacorrection! "I've nevuh seener bettuh day." "I gotter go." "You woner go home?" "I needer drank." "I can use me wunner these." "I can digger cool high." Etc. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hog _Mawls_" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'd heard about epenthetic L's for some time (Bryan Gick, a phonologist = > now head of department at UBC, used to post about them here and wrote = > them up in his Yale dissertation), but I had never witnessed any first = > hand--with Rs yes, hard to live in New England and not, but not with = > Ls--until I heard an audiobook of Patti Smith, from a Philly and South = > Jersey working-class background, reading her wonderful memoir about = > coming of age in New York (featuring Robert Mapplethorpe, with guest = > appearances by Janis Joplin, Andy Warhol, Allen Ginsberg, and the rest = > of the crew) from the 1960s to the 1980s. Both she and Mapplethorpe did = > a lot of "drawling"--not the southern kind, but the drawlings on paper = > that you use drawling pencils for. And yes, they would also "drawl" = > when there was no gerund or participle around. Lots of other local = > pronunciations ("window" and "pillow" have clear terminal schwas), but = > nothing as striking to me as the intervocalic and final L's after /O/, = > precisely in "hog mawl" type contexts. Also in "external sandhi" = > contexts, e.g. "we sawl it". =20 > > LH=20 > > > On Aug 26, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > The name of a country-music group. > >=20 > > "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title > >=20 > > "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com > >=20 > > "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook > >=20 > > Etc. > >=20 > > Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of > > "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had > > occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of = > what I > > thought I was hearing. > >=20 > > "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a > > nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. > >=20 > > --=20 > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 08:03:14 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 04:03:14 -0400 Subject: Facebook: "[Name], _bar-waitress_ ..." Message-ID: Back in the '50's, an R&B jam had the verse "Hey, bar-waitress! Give *evvibody* a drank! 'Cause I'm popping... this *mewning* [sic]!" Except for these two instances, I know only "barmaid" and unisex "bartender." The instance of "pop" = "buy a round for the house" is a hapax for me *personally*, but lexicographers are aware of it, it having been mentioned in these very pages years ago. "Mewning" for "morning" is just a jocular, pretend mispronunciation. Google has instances of "good mewning!" But I very much doubt that they are continuations of the "mewning" above. Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 11:12:39 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:12:39 +0300 Subject: Antedatings of "fave" and "fav", and a "faving" Message-ID: fave, n. and adj. (OED: 1938) fav, n. (OED: 1935) faving, v. (Not in OED) The OED notes "fave" is especially used in show business, as are these antedatings. For "fav" it says it's as in the results of horse racing, but these antedatings are also showbiz. (I didn't find much via Google Books, but saw the OED's early faves are from Variety, so found the Variety archives which allows free searching, and verified at Internet Archive.) fave ---- Variety, Vol. XXXVI, No. 4, September 26, 1914, page 17: [Begin] Sabrey D'Orsell. Songs. 14 Mins.; One. American. Sabrey D'Orsell is billed as "The Winter Garden Favorite in a Remark- able Song Review," but she isn't living up to the billing. Sabrey may have been a fave at the Garden, but she will have to change her style before becoming a fave in vaudeville, big or little. Miss D'Orsell has a voice, a lyric soprano of coloratura quality that reminds one somewhat of Bessie Abott. But Miss D'Orsell possesses none of that elusive quality called personality. She impressed her audience wrongly at the start, conveying a sort of a "I know I'm too good" idea over the foot- lights. She is singing three numbers, opening with a Scotch number, follow- ing with another semi-classical song, and closes with "Annie Laurie." There seems to be entirely too much of a sameness in her selections, and she could vary to advantage by the intro- duction of a high class ballad. She should also be coached in the manner of taking bows. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety36-1914-09#page/n166/mode/1up/search/fave --- fav --- Variety, Vol. XII, No. 9, November 7, 1908, "London Reviews" section, page 10: [Begin] John Lawson and Co. "Pigs in Clover." Holborn Empire, London. This sketch, or a "Racial Retrospect" as it is billed, is full of thrills and then some besides. There seems to be a moral to the tale on inter-marriage between Gentile and Hebrew. Mr. Lawson handles his part very well, but the act seems to be one of the impossible kind. The piece is probably the most complicated affair on the music hall stage, but Mr. Lawson being the "Big Fav" may save the play- let. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety12-1908-11#page/n9/mode/1up/search/%22big+fav%22 --- Variety, Vol. XXII, No. 12, May 27, 1911, page 14: [Begin] HERE'S BILLY GOULD BY WILLIAM GOULD. San Francisco, May 21. ... Tom Kelly la the big fav.......Odeon Tom McOrath Is the big fav...Portola Will Murphy Is the big fav....Orpheun Its funny how popular these "dagos are out here. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety22-1911-05#page/n133/mode/1up/search/fav --- Variety, Vol. XXIX, No. 2, December 13, 1912, page 14: [Begin] GARDEN'S "FAV" SHOW. The forthcoming "fav" or popular favorite show at the Winter Garden for around Feb. 1 is being placed in prep- aration. Howard Atteridge and George Bronson-Howard are writing the book. Al Brown, newcomer to eastern terri- tory, will furnish the music. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety29-1912-12#page/n51/mode/1up --- faving ------ Probably a one-off, but here's a "faving" verb from 1908, meaning "to be a fave" rather than the recent "to mark as a fave". It's also on the same page as the earliest "Big Fav" noted above. Variety, Vol. XII, No. 9, November 7, 1908, "London Notes" (Oct. 28) section, page 10: [Begin] Topsy Sinden is an old London favorite, and she could go on "faving" for some time to come if she would stop singing and stick to the dance. Topsy is there with much good foot manipulation. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety12-1908-11#page/n9/mode/1up/search/faving --- Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 11:37:53 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 19:37:53 +0800 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408270300.s7QNoJMT000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some say has nothing to do with Russian 'Willys jeep' and . But ya never know. (It works for me.) (8^o) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 12:03:17 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:03:17 +0000 Subject: Further Slight Antedating of "Jeep" Message-ID: jeep (OED 1941, HDAS Feb. 20, 1941) 1941 _Corsicana Semi-Weekly Light_ (Corsicana, Tex.) 4 Feb. 2 (Newspapers.com) All Navarro county units are now receiving ... a number of smaller trucks (now called "jeeps" or "puddle-jumpers"). Fred Shapiro Editor YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (Yale University Press) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 27 15:01:01 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:01:01 -0300 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408270742.s7R41VFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From CNN: "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 16:17:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:17:11 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271502.s7REipq3000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes. But "declined" sounds so much more polite. Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. JL On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Daniel > Subject: decline > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From CNN: > "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant > reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 18:44:56 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Yes. > > But "declined" sounds so much more polite. > > Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. > > JL Exactly, with an implicit "Thanks anyway". LH > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: David Daniel >> Subject: decline >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From CNN: >> "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant >> reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he >> declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? >> DAD >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 27 18:54:43 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 11:54:43 -0700 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271502.s7REipq1000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mac Dictionary: [ with infinitive ] politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment. Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decline) just has "To refuse, forbear." Oxford dictionaries (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/decline): Politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 27, 2014, at 8:01 AM, David Daniel wrote: > From CNN: > "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant > reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 19:01:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:01:37 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271845.s7RGpSFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You mean, "Thanks anyway, deadbeat." JL On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: decline > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > Yes. > >=20 > > But "declined" sounds so much more polite. > >=20 > > Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. > >=20 > > JL > > Exactly, with an implicit "Thanks anyway". > > LH > > >=20 > >=20 > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel = > > > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: David Daniel > >> Subject: decline > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> =46rom CNN: > >> "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight = > attendant > >> reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > >> declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > >> DAD > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 27 19:20:10 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:20:10 -0300 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271855.s7RIsLjb000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sure, but I don't think the passenger politely refused. You can even throw nuance into it, in that a defense lawyer might say his client declined to go along with the cop who was trying to arrest him (as if it had been a request and a polite refusal), and the cops would say "refused" (order and disobedience). In general, it seems to me you decline something that normally you would be expected to accept. DAD Poster: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: decline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Mac Dictionary: [ with infinitive ] politely refuse to do something: = the company declined to comment. Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decline) just has "To refuse, = forbear." Oxford dictionaries = (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/decline)= : Politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 27, 2014, at 8:01 AM, David Daniel = wrote: >From CNN: In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4007/8110 - Release Date: 08/27/14 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 19:29:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:29:15 -0400 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2014, at 11:20 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Years ago, on Sunset Boulevard, spotted license plate c.1985: <2BR02B>. suggesting, as does the cite in the above subject line, evidence (if we needed any) for the "caught"/"cot" merger; neither "reanalysis" would be likely for us die-hard easterners LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 00:02:25 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 20:02:25 -0400 Subject: Quote: "If you were my husband I'd give you poison!" "If you were my wife I'd take it." Message-ID: The famous repartee listed in the subject line is usually attributed to Nancy Astor and Winston Churchill. The Yale Book of Quotations, Brewer’s Famous Quotations, and other references have information on this topic. Barry Popik shared his results in a valuable entry here: http://bit.ly/1qibdsG http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/if_you_were_my_husband_id_poison_your_coffee_nancy_astor_to_churchill/ Here is a link to the new entry on the QI website: “If I Were Your Wife I’d Put Poison in Your Tea!” “If I Were Your Husband I'd Drink It” http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/27/drink-it/ The entry presents an attribution to Churchill in 1949. Previous researchers found a 1952 citation. The entry lists the earliest instance of the joke on November 18, 1899. This is only a day earlier than Barry's discovery, but the cite includes an acknowledgement to a source called the “Listener”. Hence it provides a possible lead to an earlier cite. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 02:02:29 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 22:02:29 -0400 Subject: "_Righty_ is freaking out!" Message-ID: A pun on the "whitey" of the '60's, perhaps, given its context, a headline in the left-wing blog, Daily Kos, and given the usual lefty picturing of the right as white and anti-minority. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:07:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:07:32 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' Message-ID: This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in this ad: "It’s an unlikely pairing: The world’s smartest looking smartwatch and the world’s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. But only for some. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:27:35 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:27:35 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281407.s7SDgxvJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never more blatantly as in > this ad: > > "It's an unlikely pairing: The world's smartest looking smartwatch and the > world's stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > But only for some. In this case, I think "stupid" is intended to be read the old-fashioned way, though tinged with irony. The "Yo" app is widely regarded as dumb -- all it's capable of doing is sending out the message "Yo." While some might find this "awesomely stupid," its baseline stupidity is still unquestioned. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:38:18 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:38:18 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281407.s7SDgxvJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The label "stupidest" has been applied to the mobile app "Yo" using the conventional pejorative sense of "stupidest". Below is an example: Title: The stupidest $1 million app ever has already been hacked Author: Brad Reed Timestamp: Jun 20, 2014 at 8:30 PM https://bgr.com/2014/06/20/yo-app-for-ios-android-hacked/ [Begin excerpt] Who would have thought that the stupidest $1 million app in world history would have shoddy security? Yo, the inexplicably dumb new messaging app that was created in just eight hours and has raised $1 million in funding, has already been hacked by college students at Georgia Tech. [End excerpt] The statement: "this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is" might be laudatory or critical. It seems to be a specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app that is widely viewed as dumb. Garson On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in > this ad: > > "It=E2=80=99s an unlikely pairing: The world=E2=80=99s smartest looking sma= > rtwatch and the > world=E2=80=99s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, b= > ecause > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > But only for some. > > JL > --=20 > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 15:02:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:02:18 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281438.s7SDgxIx000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > It seems to be a specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app that is widely viewed as dumb. So is it smart or is it stupid? Obviously, who cares? This is more post-structural than I can handle. JL On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The label "stupidest" has been applied to the mobile app "Yo" using > the conventional pejorative sense of "stupidest". Below is an example: > > Title: The stupidest $1 million app ever has already been hacked > Author: Brad Reed > Timestamp: Jun 20, 2014 at 8:30 PM > > https://bgr.com/2014/06/20/yo-app-for-ios-android-hacked/ > > [Begin excerpt] > Who would have thought that the stupidest $1 million app in world > history would have shoddy security? Yo, the inexplicably dumb new > messaging app that was created in just eight hours and has raised $1 > million in funding, has already been hacked by college students at > Georgia Tech. > [End excerpt] > > The statement: "this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you > think it is" might be laudatory or critical. It seems to be a > specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola > on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app > that is widely viewed as dumb. > > Garson > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as > in > > this ad: > > > > "It=E2=80=99s an unlikely pairing: The world=E2=80=99s smartest looking > sma= > > rtwatch and the > > world=E2=80=99s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed > up, b= > > ecause > > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, > this > > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > > > But only for some. > > > > JL > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 0000006730deb3bf-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Thu Aug 28 21:36:56 2014 From: 0000006730deb3bf-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Margaret Lee) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 14:36:56 -0700 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'Stupid,' meaning great, superb, excellent, originated in the African American community decades ago. (See Smitherman, Black Talk, 1994, 2000). It's in the same category as 'bad' meaning 'good.' --Margaret Lee >________________________________ > From: Jonathan Lighter >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:07 AM >Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > >This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in >this ad: > >"It’s an unlikely pairing: The world’s smartest looking smartwatch and the >world’s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because >mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo >platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this >promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > >For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > >But only for some. > >JL >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 23:53:05 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:53:05 -0400 Subject: Another post to Facebook Message-ID: by a Virginian speaking a dialect in which "want" and "won't" fall together, clearly: "If I rob a bank maybe I want be arrested" if he, too, a *real* American, can benefit from the amnesty that Oh! Bummer! is expected to grant to hundreds of millions of illegal aliens who have sneaked into the country and taken our jobs. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 00:27:05 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:27:05 -0400 Subject: Dave Chappelle: "Y'all have no idea... Message-ID: how outrageous some of these ads have become. _Here goes_ one, now." Considering that it's Chappelle, (in)famous for, among other things, his fearless use of the magic word - AKA "the n-word" - in any and all circumstances, with utter disregard for political correctness, it's surprising that he would feel that he had to "correct" the innocuous "standard" BE, "here go..." After all, it's *still* not standard English, despite the "correction." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 02:11:30 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:11:30 -0400 Subject: Copula-drop in BE Message-ID: "Taylor has talent, but this was a great lesson for her. She will represent the United States well, in coming years. However, _Serena still the Queen_." Posted to Facebook by a middle-aged or older black Marylander. As can be seen, the post is in a rather formal style that ought to preclude cop-drop, *especially* in writing. But, it doesn't. I'm hearing and seeing more and more of this unexpected intrusion of cop-drop into formal speech, to the extent that it seems no longer to be a mere slip of tongue or pen. But, Youneverknow. These things of things come and go. Whatever happened to "irregardless" and "forMIDable"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 02:29:54 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:29:54 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" Message-ID: In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost teen years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" Also heard: "Think I won't? 'Cause I will!" Back in '50's StL, this went: A: "Think I won't?" B: " 'Spec' you will!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 06:03:09 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 02:03:09 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" In-Reply-To: <201408290230.s7T0VImJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost teen > years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" It can still mean that, mutatis mutandis. Just replace "record" with "song (played and shared via a digital streaming service)," e.g.: https://www.thisismyjam.com/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 12:19:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 08:19:12 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" In-Reply-To: <201408290603.s7T0VIM9000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ever notice how nobody* says "bag" anymore? Or "bread" for money? Diagnostic features of ca1970 America. *i.e., statistically negligible numbers (Inglish "amounts") of people. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: "That's/This's my _jam_!" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost > teen > > years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" > > It can still mean that, mutatis mutandis. Just replace "record" with > "song (played and shared via a digital streaming service)," e.g.: > > https://www.thisismyjam.com/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 19:43:56 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:43:56 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again Message-ID: Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a book. But now.... Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ as, "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") The "novels" are chapters. Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' Or is it here already? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 19:46:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:46:37 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408291943.s7TJexiX029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Senility alert! The correct title, of course, is _Bombs Away_. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: 'novel' strikes again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a > book. > > But now.... > > Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ > as, > > "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report > from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." > > (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") > > The "novels" are chapters. > > Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' > > Or is it here already? > > JL > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 29 20:52:39 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:52:39 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2014, at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a > book. > > But now.... > > Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ > as, > > "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report > from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." > > (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") > > The "novels" are chapters. > > Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' > > Or is it here already? no, those are novellas LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 29 21:07:00 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:07:00 +0000 Subject: Yet Further Antedating of "Sexual Harassment" Message-ID: sexual harassment (OED 1973) 1971 _Yale Daily News_ 19 Apr. 1/5 (Yale Daily News Historical Archive) "We insist," said one of the women, "that sex harassment is an integral component of sex discrimination." "Men perceive women in sexual categories and not in professional categories," she continued. The complaint of sexual harassment was apparently a "new idea" to the H.E.W. team. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Aug 29 23:13:04 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:13:04 -0700 Subject: Cold and hot as terms for yin and yang foods Message-ID: I recall being told a few decades ago that certain foods are classified as hot and others as cold in Cantonese cooking, regardless of temperature (or spiciness) and that a balance is an important consideration in meal preparation. I don't see these definitions of hot/cold on Wiktionary or the Oxford Dictionary site. According to https://ethnomed.org/clinical/nutrition/chinese_food_cultural_profile, hot is yang and cold is yin (and perhaps this is a pan-Chinese concept). Other mentions: Vietnamese: http://bit.ly/1B2pkXD Chinese (bottom of 796): http://bit.ly/XZzN8l Taiwan with a mention of neutral foods: http://bit.ly/Z11xtE Steamed crabs as cold: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/5286-chinese-food-for-the-summer/ Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 23:37:35 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:37:35 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408291943.s7TJexiT029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The "novels" are chapters. So, this is a chapter-book, then. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 23:46:31 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:46:31 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408292338.s7TMd3oF029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Made up of novels. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 7:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: 'novel' strikes again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > The "novels" are chapters. > > > So, this is a chapter-book, then. > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 30 01:07:27 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:07:27 -0700 Subject: North and south for humans and game Message-ID: In "Physical Chemistry" (http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jul/featchem) in Discovery, Karen Wright and James Smolka write, "Preti tells you the bottle contains a synthetic version of that sweetelixir [sic] brewed in nature just south of the shoulder and north of theribs [sic]." The thebluemuse, phd writes, "Most nights when we snuggle up to sleep, I find my way into The Nook, that great place just north of the armpit and south of the shoulder, perfectly sized for Shawna-shaped heads" (http://thebluestmuse.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-13-favorite-places.html). This use is also found in anatomy: "The pulse generator is embedded under skin south of the shoulder - either left or right side of the upper chest," Dr. Bennett Werner (https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/1116021). I assume these all are using "south" to mean in a downward direction as seen on a Northern Hemispherite's map. At about 2:58 in the video "Where too [sic] shoot a deer?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPo7u1Tp5w), BowArrowHuntingsean uses the word south to mean behind with reference to a deer. This seems like a logical extension from the human body. There is also a use for bullet cases: "The annealed part is softer than the bottom part. When you overcrimp, the case body collapses just behind the shoulder. When that happens, the case body expands about half an inch south of the shoulder," J-cat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-286897.html). Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 01:14:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:14:37 -0400 Subject: double whammy Message-ID: OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the From line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly reminded.) LH =============== Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants, Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please simply ignore this email. ----------------------------------------------- For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the conference is September 1, 2014. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 01:18:41 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:18:41 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <3D6741F8-2BC5-4324-8E63-05043D731497@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I have the feeling that "south" is standardly used in umliterature to refer to the direction in which nether regions are located. Perhaps the belt can be seen as functioning as the Equator. LH On Aug 29, 2014, at 9:07 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Physical Chemistry" (http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jul/featchem) in Discovery, Karen Wright and James Smolka write, "Preti tells you the bottle contains a synthetic version of that sweetelixir [sic] brewed in nature just south of the shoulder and north of theribs [sic]." > > The thebluemuse, phd writes, "Most nights when we snuggle up to sleep, I find my way into The Nook, that great place just north of the armpit and south of the shoulder, perfectly sized for Shawna-shaped heads" (http://thebluestmuse.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-13-favorite-places.html). > > This use is also found in anatomy: "The pulse generator is embedded under skin south of the shoulder - either left or right side of the upper chest," Dr. Bennett Werner (https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/1116021). > > I assume these all are using "south" to mean in a downward direction as seen on a Northern Hemispherite's map. > > At about 2:58 in the video "Where too [sic] shoot a deer?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPo7u1Tp5w), BowArrowHuntingsean uses the word south to mean behind with reference to a deer. This seems like a logical extension from the human body. > > There is also a use for bullet cases: "The annealed part is softer than the bottom part. When you overcrimp, the case body collapses just behind the shoulder. When that happens, the case body expands about half an inch south of the shoulder," J-cat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-286897.html). > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:26:22 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:26:22 +0800 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xn029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH: <> WB's solution: : <> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:37:26 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:37:26 +0800 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408300119.s7TMd30r029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: WB: Business only goes south. Because stock markets run by Yankees? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 02:39:32 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 22:39:32 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xn029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Could "friendly remind" be intended as a compound verb? On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: double whammy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But = > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly = > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the = > =46rom line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier = > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an = > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. = > (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly = > reminded.) > > LH > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants,=20 > > Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of = > the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). > > For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no = > need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please = > simply ignore this email. > > ----------------------------------------------- > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would = > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the = > conference is September 1, 2014.=20= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 02:56:42 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:56:42 +0800 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408270742.s7R41VFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Watchin' a Discovery show about blue-collar pioneers. Wonder if Gick ever run acrost the . Wikip: <<<>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 05:21:39 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 01:21:39 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408300256.s7TMd37R029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 10:56 PM, W Brewer wrote: > A burl (American English) or bur or burr ( > > _used in all non-US-English speaking countries_ > > ) is a tree growth in which the grain has grown > in a deformed manner. > There's ya ranswer, rat thar: non-US. BTW, an episode of "King of the Hill," the animated cartoon, is devoted to a fruitless effort to acquire such a resource. A "burr," OTOH, is just a weed. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 30 11:08:11 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 04:08:11 -0700 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xv029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: i've pretty much lost track of this thread, but ... On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the > from line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. > > ... > ----------------------------------------------- > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the > conference is September 1, 2014. another possibility is that the writer was intending "friendlily" but reduced it to "friendly" in order to avoid the (as James Thurber once put it) the "lily word". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 11:55:31 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 07:55:31 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408300137.s7U1bOST002792@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." Far more colorful than "more" or less" or "higher" or "lower." It makes you want to hear more news. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:37 PM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: North and south for humans and game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WB: Business only goes south. Because stock markets run by Yankees? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 12:18:44 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:18:44 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, > often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north > of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." The OED has that sense with a 1978 citation: [Begin excerpt] north, adv., adj., and n. 2. fig. and colloq. uses. c. Higher; esp. in north of (a figure, cost, etc.): higher than, in excess of. 1978 Guardian Weekly 28 May 10/1 Money supply growth for the past year has ended up quite a long way north of the target band - at 16 1/4 per cent. 1991 J. Phillips You'll never eat Lunch in this Town Again 162 So Spielberg tells me the budget's going north. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 12:37:00 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:37:00 -0400 Subject: tape = 'any form of electronic recording' Message-ID: Sounds so normal it's hard to notice: CNN: "And it's all on cell phone tape!" (PS: But call a CD a "record" and you're marked as a nut/fossil.) JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 13:50:54 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:50:54 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I was thinking "friendlily" when I saw it, which is ruled out for the usual reasons. In any case, it's not just this writer--there are many google hits for "friendly remind(ed)". One of those faute-de-mieux constructions, I suppose ("one of my friends' mother", "didn't used to",…). LH On Aug 30, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > i've pretty much lost track of this thread, but ... > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But >> this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly >> because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the >> from line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier >> involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an >> adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. >> >> ... >> ----------------------------------------------- >> For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would >> like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the >> conference is September 1, 2014. > > another possibility is that the writer was intending "friendlily" but reduced it to "friendly" in order to avoid the (as James Thurber once put it) the "lily word". > > arnold > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 30 14:04:39 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:04:39 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2014 10:39 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >Could "friendly remind" be intended as a compound verb? Works for me, but only with a hyphen. Today I received an email message titled "First Overdue Notice", and initially thought I was being friendly-reminded -- the "Second Overdue Notice" would be less courteous. But no, aside from identifying the book, the text says little more than "Failure to return or renew the materials may result in fines." and "This item has been RECALLED. Please return it immediately." Perhaps this compound verb will have to be labelled "rare". Joel >On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: double whammy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But = > > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly = > > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the = > > =46rom line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier = > > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an = > > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. = > > (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly = > > reminded.) > > > > LH > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants,=20 > > > > Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of = > > the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). > > > > For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no = > > need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please = > > simply ignore this email. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would = > > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the = > > conference is September 1, 2014.=20= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sat Aug 30 16:04:58 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:04:58 -0400 Subject: Early-ish antedating of 'willies' meaning DT's In-Reply-To: <607187227.15251075.1409414435667.JavaMail.root@wayne.edu> Message-ID: While staying in a hotel in Stratford, Ontario this past week I was leafing through some old library discard books they had placed in the room. In the following: The Best of Bob Edwards, edited by Hugh A. Dempsey, Hurtig Publishers, Edmonton. 1975. I found the following: 'Peter J. McGonigle, editor of the popular Midnapore Gazette, has not had an issue of his paper out for several weeks. He has been down to High River on a business trip. As is well known, a business trip to High River involves considerable drinking, and it will be distressing to many of Mr. McGonigle's friends to learn that he forgot his pledge, and, as the local preacher put it, went the whole hog. He was so near the *willies* that they shut down on giving him any more booze, and he became a perfect nuisance round the St. George Hotel, where he was stopping.'(p. 95) footnote dates it as March 6, 1909. originally From Calgary Eye Openers, 'variously published in Calgary, High River, Port Arthur and Winnipeg.' Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 31 02:18:43 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 02:18:43 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Coed" Message-ID: coed (OED, 2., 1893) 1886 _Cornell Daily Sun_ 24 Feb. 3 (Online archive) Second Cornell Student -- "I've invited a 'coed' to go to the lecture with me!" -- _N.Y. Evening Post_ Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 31 02:27:49 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 02:27:49 +0000 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" Message-ID: coed (OED, 2., 1893) 1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for promoting higher education of women have been circulating a petition to admit them -- co-eds, you know -- to Columbia. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 03:29:57 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:29:57 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! Message-ID: Back in The Lou, ca. 1950, I learned "(to) gang-bang" as "(to participate in a) fight between two gangs." That BE meaning has long since been superseded by the WE meaning, "(to participate in a) gang-rape/cluster-fuck," though the original meaning of "gang-banger" kinda-maybe-perhaps lives on in hip-hop and cop-operas. In the course of the reality-TV show, "Vegas ER," a black youth is explaining to an ER doctor how he happened to get shot: "A dude walked up to me with a pistol in his hand. And he aksed me, 'Where you from, man?' I raised my hands and I said, 'I don't _gang-bang_, man.' And he shot me, anyway." Needless to say, sadly, the practice of the gang-rape is also well-known in the 'hood. The act is "(pull) the train" in StL and elsewhere, "(pull) a train" elsewhere, especially in hip-hop. _pull "the train"_ "commit serial rape" Reports of cases and matters determined by the Supreme Court and ... books.google.com South Carolina. Supreme Court, South Carolina. Court of Appeals - ‎1997, P.191 and P.192 aiding or abetting his friends in "running the train" or successively sexually assaulting Victim; defendant informed witnesses about "running the train" on Victim before, during, and after incident, and defendant engaged in consensual kissing with Victim, but then stood in room and watched while two of his friends successively sexually assaulted and beat Victim. ... Kilgore communicated this plan before, during, and after the rape of Victim and participated in its execution. Reynolds testified that, at the party, Kilgore told him that they "were going to _pull the train_" on Victim. Kilgore and his friends took Victim to Marseglia's apartment. He invited her into the bedroom for the ostensible purpose of showing her the room he used to occupy. Although the kissing between Kilgore and Victim was consensual, this initiated the series of acts that would lead to Victim's rape first by Marseglia and then by King. While these events were transpiring, Kilgore was standing in the room. http://goo.gl/LMaisK "Run the train" is new to me. "Pull *a* train" is decades older than hip-hop. In 1956, Jimmy Reed, a native of Mississippi, released a side that contained the phrase, "I'd rather see you pull _a_ train" This phraseology caused mild consternation among St. Louisans because, in context, there seemed to be an element of *non*-rape implied: "*see* you" and not "*make* you," not to mention "_a_ train" and not "_the_ train." The same - possible willingness on the part of the female participant WRT "pulling *a* train" - seems to true of the current hip-hop use, too, in the sense that it's many women and one lucky man and not one unlucky woman and many men. Since "pull a/the train" and "run the train" are prosaic, everyday strings that date back to the 19th C., I consider myself fortunate to have found even this one relevant cite. And yes, I am prepared to deal with being told that this and much, much more are to be found in V.III of HDAS. :-( Sigh! - Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 31 03:48:52 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 20:48:52 -0700 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408301218.s7UAC0Nx025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks for those responses to this. One thing that I failed to mention about that definition is that it may have influenced or be the origin of the human/game orientation meaning. BB On Aug 30, 2014, at 5:18 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, >> often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north >> of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." > > The OED has that sense with a 1978 citation: > > [Begin excerpt] > north, adv., adj., and n. > > 2. fig. and colloq. uses. > c. Higher; esp. in north of (a figure, cost, etc.): higher than, in excess of. > > 1978 Guardian Weekly 28 May 10/1 Money supply growth for the past > year has ended up quite a long way north of the target band - at 16 > 1/4 per cent. > > 1991 J. Phillips You'll never eat Lunch in this Town Again 162 So > Spielberg tells me the budget's going north. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 11:47:10 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:47:10 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! In-Reply-To: <201408310330.s7UKAdDv025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Once again Wilson beats out HDAS with his 1956 example. "Pull a train" began showing up in print (as one might expect) in the late '60s, but only as far as I know. JL On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Back in The Lou, ca. 1950, I learned "(to) gang-bang" as "(to participate > in a) fight between two gangs." That BE meaning has long since been > superseded by the WE meaning, "(to participate in a) > gang-rape/cluster-fuck," though the original meaning of "gang-banger" > kinda-maybe-perhaps lives on in hip-hop and cop-operas. > > In the course of the reality-TV show, "Vegas ER," a black youth is > explaining to an ER doctor how he happened to get shot: > > "A dude walked up to me with a pistol in his hand. And he aksed me, 'Where > you from, man?' I raised my hands and I said, 'I don't _gang-bang_, man.' > And he shot me, anyway." > > Needless to say, sadly, the practice of the gang-rape is also well-known in > the 'hood. The act is "(pull) the train" in StL and elsewhere, "(pull) a > train" elsewhere, especially in hip-hop. > > _pull "the train"_ "commit serial rape" > > Reports of cases and matters determined by the Supreme Court and ... > books.google.com > South Carolina. Supreme Court, South Carolina. Court of Appeals - > =E2=80=8E= > 1997, > P.191 and P.192 > aiding or abetting his friends in "running the train" or successively > sexually assaulting Victim; defendant informed witnesses about "running the > train" on Victim before, during, and after incident, and defendant engaged > in consensual kissing with Victim, but then stood in room and watched while > two of his friends successively sexually assaulted and beat Victim. ... > Kilgore communicated this plan before, during, and after the rape of Victim > and participated in its execution. Reynolds testified that, at the party, > Kilgore told him that they "were going to > > _pull the train_" > > on Victim. Kilgore and his friends took Victim to Marseglia's apartment. He > invited her into the bedroom for the ostensible purpose of showing her the > room he used to occupy. Although the kissing between Kilgore and Victim was > consensual, this initiated the series of acts that would lead to Victim's > rape first by Marseglia and then by King. While these events were > transpiring, Kilgore was standing in the room. > > http://goo.gl/LMaisK > > "Run the train" is new to me. > > "Pull *a* train" is decades older than hip-hop. In 1956, Jimmy Reed, a > native of Mississippi, released a side that contained the phrase, > > "I'd rather see you pull _a_ train" > > This phraseology caused mild consternation among St. Louisans because, in > context, there seemed to be an element of *non*-rape implied: "*see* you" > and not "*make* you," not to mention "_a_ train" and not "_the_ train." The > same - possible willingness on the part of the female participant WRT > "pulling *a* train" - seems to true of the current hip-hop use, too, in the > sense that it's many women and one lucky man and not one unlucky woman and > many men. > > Since "pull a/the train" and "run the train" are prosaic, everyday strings > that date back to the 19th C., I consider myself fortunate to have found > even this one relevant cite. > > And yes, I am prepared to deal with being told that this and much, much > more are to be found in V.III of HDAS. :-( > > Sigh! > > - Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 31 13:18:01 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:18:01 +0000 Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 Message-ID: Previously it was shown that the phrase has two spellings--on the fritz and on the friz--and two pronunciations, rhyming with "is" and with "wits." DARE, EDD, and OED show friz as a dialect and/or vulgar form of freeze. DARE give a sense of freeze as "to intimidate; to snub," with an example from 1876. Webster's New World has "freeze out [Colloq.] to keep out or force out by a cold manner, competition, etc." (OED and especially HDAS provide many quotations, though neither notes the two spellings nor the two pronunciations.) Apparently not only electrical appliances are irrelevant in the early uses (becoming associated only later), but also apparently irrelevant is the personal name Fritz. The OED June 2014 revision antedates "on the fritz" to Aug. 25, 1900. That quote is from a short play written by 51,682, a prisoner at Sing Sing. Maximus Actorius, "an actor who sees things," speaks a mishmash of Shakespearean English; Umpty Ump Mike replies: "Say Max, I like you all right, but I want to give you a pointer....Now all dis kind of talk is on de fritz, see?"--in effect Mike wants to freeze it out. The same publication edited at Sing Sing, The Star of Hope, Saturday, August 25, 1902 p. 168 col. 3 has a usage that has been noted before here and in newspaper columns in snippet form, though inaccurately, lacking a word [any], and lacking context. (I thank Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster for the reference.) Here is one fifth of the poem "Suppose" by 23,669 of Auburn NY Prison: What would the little acorn do If it had no place to grow? Would Santa Claus be on the "fritz" If we never had any snow? Paradoxically, lack of freezing would freeze Santa out of work. Some resist being frozen out. E.g, Fleming DuBignon, in The Atlanta Constitution, April 14, 1896 p.4 article (from Cuthbert) headlined "Refused To Be 'Friz.'" "There is an evident desire among the administration followers in Georgia to freeze Flem DuBignon out of the race for senate....But the Hon. Flem prefers not to freeze...." *** "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;...." --Washington Herald (Feb. 5, 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p. 6. col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 13:52:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:52:30 -0400 Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! Message-ID: >From a righty website: http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/09/iowa-senate-hopeful-will-use-his-glock-to-blow-your-balls-off/ JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 13:54:35 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:54:35 -0400 Subject: Saying: Advice for actors: Speak clearly, and don't bump into the furniture. Message-ID: There is a famous piece of advice directed at new actors that has been attributed to Noel Coward, Lynn Fontanne, Alfred Lunt, and Spencer Tracy. Here are three variants of this evolving expression: 1) Speak clearly, and don’t bump into the furniture. 2) Learn your lines and don’t bump into the furniture. 3) Memorize your lines and try not to crash into the furniture Fred wrote about this saying in his valuable article "Anonymous was a woman" here: https://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/articles/3064 The Noel Coward attribution is popular in the UK. Yet, when I posted on this topic last week on the QI website I was unable to find any direct evidence that Coward spoke a version before the 1960s. At last, a few days ago I found a relevant citation. Coward used the phrase "without bumping into people" and not the more comical phrase "without bumping into the furniture": [ref] 1954 August 16, Long Beach Independent, The Lyons Den: Broadway Gazette by Leonard Lyons, Quote Page 10, Column 7 and 8, Long Beach, California. (NewspaperArchive)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] The only advice I ever give actors is to learn to speak clearly, to project your voice without shouting - and to move about the stage gracefully, without bumping into people. After that, you have the playwright to fall back on - and that's always a good idea. [End excerpt] More information is available here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/25/bump/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 31 13:55:55 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:55:55 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A0DB27@x10-mbx5.yu.yale. edu> Message-ID: And what were they called at Oberlin, in 1837? JSB At 8/30/2014 10:27 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >coed (OED, 2., 1893) > >1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for >promoting higher education of women have been circulating a petition >to admit them -- co-eds, you know -- to Columbia. > >Fred Shapiro >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 14:14:39 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:14:39 -0400 Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 In-Reply-To: <201408311318.s7VA8NNr030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: While "on the fritz" has long meant "malfunctioning" (solely), it seems originally to have meant worthless or of poor quality. See HDAS, whose primary cite comes from _Life in Sing Sing," by "No. 1500." JL On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Previously it was shown that the phrase has two spellings--on the fritz > and= > on the friz--and two pronunciations, rhyming with "is" and with "wits." > DA= > RE, EDD, and OED show friz as a dialect and/or vulgar form of freeze. DARE > = > give a sense of freeze as "to intimidate; to snub," with an example from > 18= > 76. Webster's New World has "freeze out [Colloq.] to keep out or force out > = > by a cold manner, competition, etc." (OED and especially HDAS provide many > = > quotations, though neither notes the two spellings nor the two > pronunciatio= > ns.) Apparently not only electrical appliances are irrelevant in the early > = > uses (becoming associated only later), but also apparently irrelevant is > th= > e personal name Fritz. > > > The OED June 2014 revision antedates "on the fritz" to Aug. 25, 1900. That > = > quote is from a short play written by 51,682, a prisoner at Sing Sing. > Maxi= > mus Actorius, "an actor who sees things," speaks a mishmash of > Shakespearea= > n English; Umpty Ump Mike replies: "Say Max, I like you all right, but I > wa= > nt to give you a pointer....Now all dis kind of talk is on de fritz, > see?"-= > -in effect Mike wants to freeze it out. > > The same publication edited at Sing Sing, The Star of Hope, Saturday, > Augus= > t 25, 1902 p. 168 col. 3 has a usage that has been noted before here and > in= > newspaper columns in snippet form, though inaccurately, lacking a word > [an= > y], and lacking context. (I thank Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster for > the= > reference.) Here is one fifth of the poem "Suppose" by 23,669 of Auburn > NY= > Prison: > > > What would the little acorn do > > If it had no place to grow? > > Would Santa Claus be on the "fritz" > > If we never had any snow? > > > Paradoxically, lack of freezing would freeze Santa out of work. > > Some resist being frozen out. E.g, Fleming DuBignon, in The Atlanta > Constit= > ution, April 14, 1896 p.4 article (from Cuthbert) headlined "Refused To Be > = > 'Friz.'" > > "There is an evident desire among the administration followers in Georgia > t= > o freeze Flem DuBignon out of the race for senate....But the Hon. Flem > pref= > ers not to freeze...." > > *** > > > "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz; > > It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;...." > > --Washington Herald > > (Feb. 5, 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p. 6. col. 3 America's Historic > Ne= > wspapers) > > > Stephen Goranson > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 14:52:21 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <201408310227.s7UKAdAp025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The term "co-eds" was used in a student publication of the University of Michigan called "The Chronicle" in 1877 and 1878. Here are three citations. The sense in the October 13, 1877 is not very clear. The citations in the April 6, 1878 and June 8, 1878 do seem to refer to female students. Date: October 13, 1877 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Article: Things Chronicled Quote Page 12, Column 2 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We would suggest that a convention of co-eds. he called, and a committee be appointed to wait on President Eliot, in regard to his pamphlet of last year. If he doesn't repent of his course, then our powers of observation go for naught. [End excerpt] Date: April 6, 1878 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Article: Things Chronicled Quote Page 189, Column 1 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Two of the co-eds at Northwestern can sing base. So says the Vidette. [End excerpt] Date: June 8, 1878 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Quote Page 252, Column 2 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Chalk down another one for the freshman. Two of these gentlemen have the good fortune to live under the same roof with two young ladies of their class, near the suburbs of the town. The latter, taken with an attack of the furor musicus, attempted to favor their gallant fellow-classmen with a vocal serenade, and succeeded admirably, until these young scions of chivalry, thinking to be funny, returned the compliment with a blast from their horns. The indignant co-eds returned to the house, bent upon revenge; and later in the evening appeared again upon the scene with wrath upon their foreheads and horns within their hands. And there beside the evergreens, so glorious and so free, they made the most pan-demonical racket that ever greeted mortal ears. [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > coed (OED, 2., 1893) > > 1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for promoting hig= > her education of women have been circulating a petition to admit them -- co= > -eds, you know -- to Columbia. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 15:20:15 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 11:20:15 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <201408311452.s7VA8NUr030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My previous message contained a typo in the October 13, 1877 citation. Here is the corrected text: http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We would suggest that a convention of co-eds. be called, and a committee be appointed to wait on President Eliot, in regard to his pamphlet of last year. If he doesn't repent of his course, then our powers of observation go for naught. [End excerpt] The following interpretation seems plausible to me: [[We would suggest that a convention of co-educational institutions be called.]] This fits OED sense A.1. Hence, it is possible that "co-eds" was not used to refer to female students in this cite. But the other two cites still stand. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 22:46:24 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 18:46:24 -0400 Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! In-Reply-To: <201408311352.s7VA8NPx030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Balls!" said the queen. "If I had them, then I'd be king!" A common, nonsense - AFAIK - extension of the simple exclamation used among EM, back when. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a righty website: > > > http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/09/iowa-senate-hopeful-will-use-his-glock-to-blow-your-balls-off/ > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 23:34:28 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 19:34:28 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! In-Reply-To: <201408311147.s7VA8NIB030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > as far as I [Jon Lighter] know. That's good enough for me! ;-) "My First Plea," by Jimmy Reed, recorded June 11, 1956 "Don't pull no subway I'd rather see you pull a train" Vee-Jay 203 56-406 -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 00:46:08 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:46:08 -0400 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: <201407282257.s6SK62V5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: USA Today has this: "According to a Seattle Police Department report , more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census ." http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ Randy On Jul 28, 2014 6:57 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "[Name], played by _African-American_ actor Isaac C. Singleton, Jr., and > [Name], played by the _black_ English actor, Treva Etienne." > > - Henry Louis Gates, Jr. > > I'd have expected "African-English" or "African-British," if the prefix, > _African-_, had any real, independent use other than as a sad, depressing > calque on "Irish-American" et sim. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 01:19:16 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:19:16 -0400 Subject: Facebook: "get out of _hawk_" In-Reply-To: <201407311934.s6VJOaoF028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We had a thread related to this back in July 2002 when I posted on a new business that had opened in Muncie, IN, the Muncie Hawk Shop. This is a cot/caught merger area, and my first assumption was that the spelling was due to that merger. However, someone else on the list checked further and found that the shop owner had intentionally named it as he had. Apparently he'd had a felony conviction and so was not bondable and couldn't get a pawnbroker's license. So he named the place "Hawk Shop" instead of "Hock Shop." The shop closed up about a year later and, the last I knew, had relocated forty-five miles NW to Marion, but he kept the name "Hawk Shop." Herb On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Facebook: "get out of _hawk_" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Writer is from "Portland." Thanks to Fb's weird implementation of > "privacy," I'd have to friend this guy to find out where Portland is. > > Since I distinguish between "cot" and "caught," I didn't immediately > understand WTF he was trying to say. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 01:20:29 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:20:29 -0700 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe just variation rather than confusion, like "Barack Obama said today... The President went on to argue?" (Assuming that the sets denoted by "African-Americans" and "Blacks" are identical; otherwise, it is pretty confusing without further clarification of whether the latter category includes immigrants from Vancouver, say, and/or the former includes white South Africans, both of which I strongly doubt.) LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:46 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > USA Today has this: > > "According to a Seattle Police Department report > , > more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up > 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census > ." > > http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ > > Randy > On Jul 28, 2014 6:57 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "[Name], played by _African-American_ actor Isaac C. Singleton, Jr., and >> [Name], played by the _black_ English actor, Treva Etienne." >> >> - Henry Louis Gates, Jr. >> >> I'd have expected "African-English" or "African-British," if the prefix, >> _African-_, had any real, independent use other than as a sad, depressing >> calque on "Irish-American" et sim. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 01:21:35 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:21:35 -0700 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it up. Very ecological. LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > As defined by Consumer Reports [edited]: > > A container, often a glass jug, that holds 32 to 64 fluid ounces > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 01:28:45 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:28:45 -0400 Subject: one in the same Message-ID: "Debt is merely the sum total of all previous deficits. Except for when they are incurred, they are one in the same." >From a comment section of a Salon story at http://www.salon.com/2014/07/31/cnn_anchor_shuts_down_fox_climate_trolls_in_one_brilliant_tweet/?source=newsletter ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 01:52:53 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:52:53 -0400 Subject: Confusion, even at the highest level In-Reply-To: <3FB75E4B-7766-46EF-8479-4171DCF9FC67@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 7/31/2014 09:20 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Maybe just variation rather than confusion, like >"Barack Obama said today... The President went >on to argue " (Assuming that the sets denoted >by "African-Americans" and "Blacks" are >identical; otherwise, it is pretty confusing >without further clarification of whether the >latter category includes immigrants from >Vancouver, say, and/or the former includes white >South Africans, both of which I strongly doubt.) Or are the official names of the "racial" classifications n the Seattle citations and the U.S. census different? (Possibly, but probably not an excuse for the writer.) Joel >LH > > >On Jul 31, 2014, at 5:46 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > > > USA Today has this: > > > > "According to a Seattle Police Department report > > > , > > more than 36% of the 82 citations were to African-Americans. Blacks make up > > 8% of Seattle's population, according to the 2010 Census > > ." > > > > > http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/31/seattle-police-officer-marijuana-enforcement/13415119/ > > > > Randy ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 02:08:22 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:08:22 -0700 Subject: one in the same In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A few more from the past: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/448/one-in-the-same/ LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > "Debt is merely the sum total of all previous deficits. Except for when > they are incurred, they are one in the same." > > From a comment section of a Salon story at > http://www.salon.com/2014/07/31/cnn_anchor_shuts_down_fox_climate_trolls_in_one_brilliant_tweet/?source=newsletter > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 02:23:19 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:23:19 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010121.s6VLmdQp028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = > Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = > up. Very ecological. > Yep. That's what CR is on about. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 02:38:39 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:38:39 -0400 Subject: "by the each" again Message-ID: A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from California due to the possibility they were contaminated with Listeria monocytogenes. The posted notice at the checkout counter said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the each)." (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the each but in "4LB Boxes.") Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by humans. Although I suppose there might be macros within the computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the "by the ..." text. The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be more widely understood than the former. In any case, using both phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label advertising price might have. If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 02:57:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:57:17 -0400 Subject: Subject-line of a political e-mail Message-ID: "Did you hear?" Those of a certain age may recall a popular song, from back in the day, with the title, "Have You Heard?" "Language keeps on changin', when it oughta be samin'," as Nancy Sinatra, Jr., didn't put it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Aug 1 03:01:48 2014 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:01:48 -0500 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign of growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local tavern in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with a lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the Growler" On 7/31/2014 9:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = >> Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = >> up. Very ecological. >> > Yep. That's what CR is on about. > > -- FAR BETTER TO BURN OUT, THAN FADE AWAY. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 03:44:55 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:44:55 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" Message-ID: Shouldn't that be, "with Frances and *I*"? :-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 03:51:45 2014 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:51:45 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408010345.s7136unR028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Shouldn't that be, > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 06:56:00 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:56:00 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whence the ? LH On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: "with Frances and me" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Shouldn't that be, >> >> "with Frances and *I*"? :-( >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 06:59:30 2014 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 02:59:30 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408010656.s716u6qx026470@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: yes, I understood that after my initial response -- just had not seen it and wasn't familiar with it! On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 2:56 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Whence the =85 > > LH > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > > > No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray = > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: "with Frances and me" > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> Shouldn't that be, > >>=20 > >> "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > >>=20 > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to > >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Fri Aug 1 13:05:15 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:05:15 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010301.s6VLmdj9028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the explication of 'growler'. Without it I would never have understood the offer that came in this morning from LivingSocial Deals: "Entry to Growler Gallop Ten-Mile Race DETROIT, MI Like Oreo's and milk, peanut butter and jelly - running and beer just go better together. Trivium Racing is proud to bring you a scenic, fun tune-up race for all of your fall marathons and half marathons. Come on out to Atwater Brewery on September 14th and tackle either the 10 mile race or the 5K fun run distance. Come across the line and you will be greeted with a finishers mug, two free fill ups, live music and amazing prizes!" Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "paul johnson" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:01:48 PM > Subject: Re: "Growler" > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paul johnson > Subject: Re: "Growler" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign > of > growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local > tavern > in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with > a > lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was > probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the > Growler" > On 7/31/2014 9:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn > > > > wrote: > > > >> They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in > >> enclaves like = > >> Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they > >> fill it = > >> up. Very ecological. > >> > > Yep. That's what CR is on about. > > > > > -- > FAR BETTER TO BURN OUT, THAN FADE AWAY. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Fri Aug 1 14:07:26 2014 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 10:07:26 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/1/14, 12:00 AM, ADS-L automatic digest system wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:01:48 -0500 > From: paul johnson > Subject: Re: "Growler" > > Sometime during the second world war I felt pretty proud and a sign of > growing up when my grandfather sent me three blocks to the local tavern > in Chicago to get him a beer. A growler then was a squat bucket with a > lid and a bail handle, maybe held a quart and a half of beer. I was > probably 6 or 7. Later on I read that was called "Rushing the Growler" Yep: there's a scene like that in Frank Norris's _McTeague_. (Yep, that's what stuck in my little undergrad mind from that novel in my American Realism & Naturalism course. What a concept: Getting a bucket of beer!) ---Amy West ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 14:58:19 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 22:58:19 +0800 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408011407.s71Dnqo3028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Brewery ... mmmh. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 15:07:04 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:07:04 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less frequently, " and I") when the same speaker always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: She came with Tom and I She came with me She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. She told me to meet her at the bookstore. Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? Joel At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: >No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > >On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Shouldn't that be, > > > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 1 15:15:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:15:12 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <338040.8590.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2014, at 8:07 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less frequently, " and I") when the same speaker always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: > > She came with Tom and I > She came with me > She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. > She told me to meet her at the bookstore. > > Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? > > Joel Arnold is the one to respond to this. He (and his students) have a lot to say on the topic. Not sure there's anything entirely authoritative, but it's very much worth reading. (There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his student Thomas Grano from 2006, "?Me and her? meets ?he and I?: Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns", which may or may not have been published, and there's even a theory by a generative linguist named Nicholas Sobin that treats the "correct" forms as a grammatical virus.) LH > > At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: >> No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: "with Frances and me" >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Shouldn't that be, >> > >> > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( >> > >> > -- >> > -Wilson >> > ----- >> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > -Mark Twain >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 15:27:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:27:44 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it available in electronic form? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Fri Aug 1 15:55:07 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:55:07 +0100 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011527.s71FReDj024468@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: http://ling.umd.edu/~tgrano/uht.pdf Robin Hamilton __________________________________ At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it available in electronic form? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Aug 1 16:14:52 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:14:52 -0700 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011527.s71FReDj024468@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2014, at 8:27 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > At 8/1/2014 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ... There's an excellent undergraduate essay by his [Arnold's] >> student Thomas Grano from 2006, ""Me and her" meets "he and I": >> Case, person, and linear ordering in English coordinated pronouns" ... > > Lovely title! Illustrating each type of error. Arnold, is it > available in electronic form? in several places, including here: http://www.stanford.edu/~zwicky/Grano.finalthesis.pdf i have posted so often on ths topic that i'm reluctant to rehash things. to get a small sample, do a google search on "nominative coordinate objects" arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 16:39:07 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:39:07 +0000 Subject: How toll (rhymes with "doll") are you Message-ID: The nurse asked "How tall are you. But she said ~taal not ~taul. I had her say it twice before I got it. She said; ~~Hou taaler yue?~~ in a soft quick voice. Which makes me think - does the tongue go lower when we say "ah" or " awe"? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 17:59:21 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:59:21 +0800 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011625.s71GPvD8015877@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JB: <> WB: You can't go wrong with Mr Tweedley! He tells you and I what's what, at 04:02. You're quite welcome, I'm sure. << The home is a classroom. Keep in mind the tiny tots. >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Fri Aug 1 18:03:53 2014 From: 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Jeff Prucher) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:03:53 -0700 Subject: "by the each" again In-Reply-To: <201408010238.s6VLmdfh028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There are tens of thousands of items on Amazon listed as being "by the each": https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:amazon.com+%22by+the+each%22. (You can do the same with amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk, with similar quantities of results.) GBooks is a bit hard to sort out, but searching for "sold by the each" finds a number of hits of interest, mostly dealing with wholesaling or retailing, and covering the whole of the 20th century: https://www.google.com/search?q="sold+by+the+each"&tbm=bks. Note how many of these include some or all of the phrase in scare quotes. ? So I think we can put the "computer error" hypothesis to bed, as well as my regionalism hypothesis. My best guess now is that this is wholesaler/retailer jargon (hence the scare quotes, perhaps), which is fairly widespread across industries. Dictionaries (DARE excepted) have likely missed or omitted this either because it is seen as jargon or because it appears outside the sources used by the dictionaries (e.g. trade publications and in-store labels and shelf-talkers). Jeff Prucher ? On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society >Poster:? ? ? "Joel S. Berson" >Subject:? ? ? "by the each" again >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from >California due to the possibility they were contaminated with >Listeria monocytogenes.? The posted notice at the checkout counter >said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the >each)."? (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the >each but in "4LB Boxes.") > >Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: >http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 > >Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- > >The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer >program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings >on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web >site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by >humans.? Although I suppose there might be macros within the >computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the >"by the ..." text. > >The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the >phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be >more widely understood than the former.? In any case, using both >phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label >advertising price might have. > >If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via >its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 1 19:02:35 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED Message-ID: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED. Urban Dictionary has "8. To act or speak in a rough or an insensitive manner." And "9. to be rude or cruel to somebody." Although the examples of each are of the adjective. "How come you guys are harshing me for liking 'Star Trek: The Next Generation?" "It's a _guilty pleasure!_ Everybody has one!" Lincoln Peirce, "Big Nate", 2014 Aug.1. Being slangy, exact meanings in quotations are elusive. From GBooks, searching for "harshed" and "harshing", "Preview available, finds some that seem similar, from the early 1990s on. If anything is said in the ADS-L archives, I didn't find it. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 1 19:08:33 2014 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:08:33 -0400 Subject: "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED In-Reply-To: <896017.19092.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 03:02:35PM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "harsh", verb, "to speak unkindly"?; not in OED. HDAS and GDoS have examples of _harsh (on)_ in relevant senses from the late 1980s, in college slang sources. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 1 19:14:26 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:14:26 -0400 Subject: "with Frances and me" In-Reply-To: <201408011507.s71DnqR7028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's also CGEL p463. If you like, I can scan the page and send it to you. Randy On Aug 1, 2014 11:07 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "with Frances and me" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I often hear people say " and I" (or, perhaps less > frequently, " and I") when the same speaker > always correctly says " me" (or " me"). That is: > > She came with Tom and I > She came with me > She told Tom and I to meet her at the bookstore. > She told me to meet her at the bookstore. > > Is there an authoritative explanation for this phenomenon? > > Joel > > At 7/31/2014 11:51 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > >No -- you would say "with me" and not "with I." > > > > > >On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > Subject: "with Frances and me" > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Shouldn't that be, > > > > > > "with Frances and *I*"? :-( > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > > > ----- > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Fri Aug 1 21:39:25 2014 From: 000000b93183dc86-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Jeff Prucher) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:39:25 -0700 Subject: "by the each" again In-Reply-To: <201408010238.s6VLmdfh028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My last response came through kind of garbled. Trying again: There are tens of thousands of items on Amazon listed as being "by the each": https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:amazon.com+%22by+the+each%22. (You can do the same with amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk, with similar quantities of results.) GBooks is a bit hard to sort out, but searching for "sold by the each" finds a number of hits of interest, mostly dealing with wholesaling or retailing, and covering the whole of the 20th century: https://www.google.com/search?q="sold+by+the+each"&tbm=bks. Note how many of these include some or all of the phrase in scare quotes. ? So I think we can put the "computer error" hypothesis to bed, as well as my regionalism hypothesis. My best guess now is that this is wholesaler/retailer jargon (hence the scare quotes, perhaps), which is fairly widespread across industries. Dictionaries (DARE excepted) have likely missed or omitted this either because it is seen as jargon or because it appears outside the sources used by the dictionaries (e.g. trade publications and in-store labels and shelf-talkers). Jeff Prucher > On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster:? ? ? "Joel S. Berson" > Subject:? ? ? "by the each" again > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A week or so ago Trader Joe's was recalling stone fruits from > California due to the possibility they were contaminated with > Listeria monocytogenes.? The posted notice at the checkout counter > said for a list of various stone fruits "Sold Individually (by the > each)."? (Some other fruits were said to have been sold not by the > each but in "4LB Boxes.") > > Today, I see the same wording is on their web site: > http://www.traderjoes.com/about/customer-updates-responses.asp?i=108 > > Looking back to February and Arnold's blog -- > > The suggested explanations of "a not very sophisticated computer > program for making the labels" and "a failure to change the settings > on the label printer properly" can't I think apply to text on a web > site followed by a list of items, but rather must be created by > humans.? Although I suppose there might be macros within the > computers of the customer-updates minions that speed up typing the > "by the ..." text. > > The gloss "by the each" is as though it is an explanation of the > phrase "sold individually," although the latter seems likely to be > more widely understood than the former.? In any case, using both > phrases together removes any possible ambiguity that a shelf label > advertising price might have. > > If it had been a regionalism, Trader Joe's may have made it viral via > its 418 stores across the U.S. (as of 16 May 2014). > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 12:39:30 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 08:39:30 -0400 Subject: "When you _victim-blame_..." In-Reply-To: <201407312024.s6VJOa8V028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > My impression is that this kind of structure has definitely moved away > from, IMO, a joke and may be headed to "unremarkable, perhaps even to > "ordinary." Or the novelty may wear off too quickly and it'll die out. > > Youneverknow. Arnold covered this back-formation (along with "shut-shame") here: http://arnoldzwicky.org/2013/04/15/synthetic-compounds-and-back-formed-verbs-rape/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 12:46:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 08:46:12 -0400 Subject: "When you _victim-blame_..." In-Reply-To: <201408021239.s72A947f028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The syntax is useful because it saves space, time, and breath. It's easier to write or say "victim blame" than "blame the victim." Moreover, it puts the action verb in the stronger clause-final position. Like to "early vote," the trend is becoming broader than classical "back-formation," as Arnold has undoubtedly observed. JL On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: "When you _victim-blame_..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > My impression is that this kind of structure has definitely moved away > > from, IMO, a joke and may be headed to "unremarkable, perhaps even to > > "ordinary." Or the novelty may wear off too quickly and it'll die out. > > > > Youneverknow. > > Arnold covered this back-formation (along with "shut-shame") here: > > > http://arnoldzwicky.org/2013/04/15/synthetic-compounds-and-back-formed-verbs-rape/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 13:01:13 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 09:01:13 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" Message-ID: Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I mentioned here many years ago. I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. Nothing. OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known stanza? (There once were many.) If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 13:43:24 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 09:43:24 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' Message-ID: Context suggests that everybody knows this term but me: "5 Hacks That'll Improve Your Life": https://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/5-hacks-thatll-improve-life-232544326.html?vp=1 JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 2 17:25:33 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021301.s72A94A5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend his knee. My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? -- Kate On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. > Nothing. > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 18:23:02 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:23:02 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021725.s72A94cL028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Kate. I have seen more than 500 verses, but not that one! Is there any more to it than that? JL On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock < spanbocks at verizon.net> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock > Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = > able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = > his knee. > > My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = > fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = > starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = > was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? > > -- > Kate > > On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header = > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > > = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >=20 > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > > mentioned here many years ago. > >=20 > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = > that. > > Nothing. > >=20 > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = > that > > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > >=20 > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > >=20 > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = > big > > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = > press. > > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = > best-known > > stanza? (There once were many.) > >=20 > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 2 18:37:18 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't remember any verses, although I associate it with humor and satire. But inky dinky parlez-vous? Joel At 8/2/2014 09:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I >mentioned here many years ago. > >I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to >having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. >Nothing. > >OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular >associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that >the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > >The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex >kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > >I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big >deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. >Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known >stanza? (There once were many.) > >If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 2 18:59:45 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 11:59:45 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021823.s72A94g5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just remember something like "Oh, Mademoiselle, will you marry me? I can't go down on a busted knee. Hinky dinky etc." On Aug 2, 2014, at 11:23 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you, Kate. > > I have seen more than 500 verses, but not that one! Is there any more to > it than that? > > JL > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock < > spanbocks at verizon.net> wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock >> Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = >> able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = >> his knee. >> >> My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = >> fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = >> starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = >> was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? >> >> -- >> Kate >> >> On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header = >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" >>> = >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ----- >>> =20 >>> Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I >>> mentioned here many years ago. >>> =20 >>> I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to >>> having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = >> that. >>> Nothing. >>> =20 >>> OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular >>> associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = >> that >>> the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) >>> =20 >>> The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex >>> kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. >>> =20 >>> I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = >> big >>> deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = >> press. >>> Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = >> best-known >>> stanza? (There once were many.) >>> =20 >>> If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. >>> =20 >>> JL >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = >> truth." >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Aug 2 19:31:48 2014 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <30691_1406984502_s72D1e4H014105_201408021301.s72A94A5028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know of the song, but not much of the words. Most of my knowledge stems from Sinclair Lewis' _It Can't Happen Here_; the U.S. government, preparing the people for a war of conquest with Mexico, put out a new version, IIRC entitled "Sen~orit' from Nayarit", and rhyming "she smiled all over her khaki pan" with "what a man!". FWIW. Jim Parish On 8/2/2014 8:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. > > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. > Nothing. > > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) > > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. > > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) > > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 20:56:11 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 16:56:11 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' In-Reply-To: <201408021343.s72A94DV028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Context suggests that everybody knows this term but me: > > "5 Hacks That'll Improve Your Life": > > https://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/5-hacks-thatll-improve-life-232544326.html?vp=1 This use of "hack" seems to be a short form of "life hack". Wikipedians attempted to trace the term "life hack" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_hacking A 2004 talk by Danny O'Brien was an important nexus for popularization according to Wikipedia. Looking in the archives I see a similar response from me in 2012. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;cace17c6.1211D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wh5mith at BELLSOUTH.NET Sat Aug 2 21:01:40 2014 From: wh5mith at BELLSOUTH.NET (wh5mith) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:01:40 -0700 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021301.s72A949v028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The first Marine went over the top, parlez-vous. The second Marine went over the top, parlez-vous. The third Marine went over the top, He thought he heard a nickle drop, Hinkey, dinkey, parlez-vous. She still wasn't kissed. Bill Smith ? A brilliant casuist disproved every false generalization. He is justly known lately. Moreover, no pompous quibbler really said that useful verities were xenophobic yet zealous. On Saturday, August 2, 2014 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society Poster:? ? ? Jonathan Lighter Subject:? ? ? Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I mentioned here many years ago. I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond that. Nothing. OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact that the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex kitten.? Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a big deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar press. Has it any resonance left?? Does anyone here know more than the best-known stanza? (There once were many.) If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Sat Aug 2 21:22:01 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:22:01 -0300 Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" In-Reply-To: <201408021725.s72A94cP028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I was a little kid in the 50's. We sang this both as "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" and "The first marine went over the wall, parlez-vous" and so forth. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 2:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" oster: Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock Subject: Re: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- I knew a few verses back in the 1970's. I remember one about not being = able to propose to her properly because the singer could no longer bend = his knee. My recollection was that the whole thing was a kind of joke about the = fact that she was unattractive but they were after her anyway, being = starved for comfort - like that later song about army food, whatever it = was? The biscuits in the army, they say they're mighty fine...? -- Kate On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Way OT: "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >=20 > Am finishing a pedantic study of this once-famous WW1 song, which I > mentioned here many years ago. >=20 > I was surprised recently when a somewhat younger colleague admitted to > having heard the name at one point but knew nothing whatever beyond = that. > Nothing. >=20 > OK, silly question: does the song or the name have any particular > associations for members of this distinguished forum? (Beyond the fact = that > the Mlle. hadn't been kissed in 40 years.) >=20 > The popular image is/was that, being French, she was some kind of sex > kitten. Yet the only verse most people know suggests the opposite. >=20 > I'm interested in the Mademoiselle as Rohrschach test. The song was a = big > deal 100 years ago and was frequently commented on in the postwar = press. > Has it any resonance left? Does anyone here know more than the = best-known > stanza? (There once were many.) >=20 > If the subject is too far afield for the list, email me. >=20 > JL >=20 > --=20 > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = truth." >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 22:42:56 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:42:56 -0400 Subject: "Growler" In-Reply-To: <201408010132.s711Wf9B014364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've posted on this subject several months ago as debates rage in craft-beer communities over the names of different containers, e.g., the name of the quart growler. Generally, any screwtop or poptop reusable glass container for beer that is larger than 750ml is referred to as growler. In Florida, legal growlers are 32 oz and 1 gal. The half-gallon size is illegal. Several companies tried to use thick-walled 2L soda bottles and refer to them as plastic growlers. VS-) On 7/31/2014 9:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > They've become big (again?) in the craft beer community in enclaves like = > Hipster Brooklyn, where you bring your growler with you and they fill it = > up. Very ecological. > > LH > > On Jul 31, 2014, at 2:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> As defined by Consumer Reports [edited]: >> =20 >> A container, often a glass jug, that holds 32 to 64 fluid ounces >> =20 >> --=20 >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 2 23:12:13 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 23:12:13 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" Message-ID: byte (OED 1964) 1962 Werner Buchholz _Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch_ 40 _Byte_ denotes a group of bits used to encode a character, or the number of bits transmitted in parallel to and from input-output units. ... (The term is coined from _bite_, but respelled to avoid accidental mutation to _bit_.) Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 2 22:38:45 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 18:38:45 -0400 Subject: Google Books no longer sorting by "Custom range" of date? In-Reply-To: <201407302241.s6UJmYbJ028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: while I've been using the same link for years now, it no longer provides accurate information. Most hits returned with restricted range mostly gives titles outside that range, particularly recent browsable items, but also a lot of older items that also don't correspond in language. GB is still usable for initial search, but it's no longer the same tool that it was 3-4 years ago, which is why you don't see many items from me any more. Most of my old research is no longer verifiable. I have several files with partial links that can no longer be updated because GB is broken VS-) On 7/30/2014 6:41 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Joel, if you start your search at the following webpage you will be > able to specify a time range. Note that Google Books search engine > implementation has been defective for quite some time. So you will > experience false negative and false positive matches. But the GB > search engine is still enormously powerful and valuable. > > http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 3 03:44:10 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 23:44:10 -0400 Subject: hack = 'clever expedient' In-Reply-To: <201408021343.s72A94DV028427@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hack A clip of "NEAT HACK: A clever technique"? HACK n. 4., in The Original Hacker's Dictionary [of MIT-AI, ca. 1988] http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 3 20:34:19 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 16:34:19 -0400 Subject: Phrase: saved you a click (clickbait spoilers) Message-ID: Title: Please Stop Saving Me A Click Sub-title: Here's an online behavior that?s worth reconsidering Author: Charlie Warzel BuzzFeed Staff Website: Buzzfeed Timestamp: Aug. 1, 2014, at 11:16 a.m. http://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/please-stop-saving-me-a-click [Begin excerpt] While the idea of "saving you a click" has been around for some time - one of the earliest instances on Twitter came in October 2009 - its recent surge in popularity can most likely be traced to the Twitter account of the same name. [End excerpt] Here is a twitter example of "saving you a click" in March 2009, but it is not really a clickbait spoiler. [Begin excerpt] Marie Macaisa ?@shakespearecub What wine goes with bacon? @garyvee reviews http://tinyurl.com/dk2mxt (Shakespearians, saving you a click, that's not a ref to Sir Francis) 11:52 AM - 29 Mar 2009 [End excerpt] Here is a twitter example of a clickbait spoiler with the phrase "saved you a click" in October 2009: [Begin excerpt] Jeremy Borger ?@jborger It's Avon Lake. Saved you a click - A local high school is under lockdown. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/21181983/detail.html (via @WEWS) 2:16 PM - 2 Oct 2009 [End excerpt] Here is a 2010 example: [Begin excerpt] vbspurs ?@vbspurs RT @eonline: Which Celeb Is Rocking a Furry Tiara? http://bit.ly/9KpXqp [It's Dakota Fanning. There I saved you a click] 12:34 AM - 25 Feb 2010 [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 3 22:38:40 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 22:38:40 +0000 Subject: "Embiggen" Not in OED Message-ID: One of the great neologisms of our time seems to have escaped the attention of the OED and Merriam-Webster. I refer, of course, to the word "embiggen," seemingly introduced by the 1996 "Simpsons" episode entitled "Lisa the Iconoclast," which reveals that the Springfield town motto is "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." A Google search for "embiggen" turns up 755,000 hits; there would be more if inflected forms were also searched for. The OED should note, if it has not already, that "embiggen" is actually a 19th-century neologism: 1884 _Notes and Queries_ 16 Aug. 135 I believe it to be beyond the power of Prof. Skeat or any other scholar or grammarian to settle what substantive, or even adjective, shall be turned into a verb when the many-mouthed beast takes it into its head to make one. ... Cricket has its slang; football has its slang; and lawn tennis has its genteel slang. But fresh slang coming up destroys old slang, and it is this we must look to, and not to grammarians, to rid the dictionaries of the jargon that "neweth every day." Are there not, however, barbarous verbs in all languages? ... the people magnified them, to make great or _embiggen_, if we may invent an English parallel as ugly. After all, use is nearly everything. C. A. WARD. (This occurrence is not my own discovery, but is mentioned, for example, in Wikipedia.) Is it possible that one of the Harvard-educated "Simpsons" screenwriters was familiar with the esoteric 1884 discussion? How cromulent that would be. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 3 23:08:02 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 23:08:02 +0000 Subject: Another Interesting Thing About "Embiggen" Message-ID: Another interesting thing about "embiggen" is that it is an antonym of one of the great 18th-century neologisms, Thomas Jefferson's "belittle." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 6:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Embiggen" Not in OED One of the great neologisms of our time seems to have escaped the attention of the OED and Merriam-Webster. I refer, of course, to the word "embiggen," seemingly introduced by the 1996 "Simpsons" episode entitled "Lisa the Iconoclast," which reveals that the Springfield town motto is "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." A Google search for "embiggen" turns up 755,000 hits; there would be more if inflected forms were also searched for. The OED should note, if it has not already, that "embiggen" is actually a 19th-century neologism: 1884 _Notes and Queries_ 16 Aug. 135 I believe it to be beyond the power of Prof. Skeat or any other scholar or grammarian to settle what substantive, or even adjective, shall be turned into a verb when the many-mouthed beast takes it into its head to make one. ... Cricket has its slang; football has its slang; and lawn tennis has its genteel slang. But fresh slang coming up destroys old slang, and it is this we must look to, and not to grammarians, to rid the dictionaries of the jargon that "neweth every day." Are there not, however, barbarous verbs in all languages? ... the people magnified them, to make great or _embiggen_, if we may invent an English parallel as ugly. After all, use is nearly everything. C. A. WARD. (This occurrence is not my own discovery, but is mentioned, for example, in Wikipedia.) Is it possible that one of the Harvard-educated "Simpsons" screenwriters was familiar with the esoteric 1884 discussion? How cromulent that would be. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 4 00:40:15 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 00:40:15 +0000 Subject: A font for all languages - no tofu Message-ID: I wonder what to call what the web is doing to our emails - snafu? http://n.pr/1ops3Wv "Tofu" is what the pros call those tiny, empty rectangles that show up when a script isn't supported. This is where Google's new font family, "Noto," gets its name: "No Tofu." Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 5 01:06:03 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 01:06:03 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently published book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published by Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of material on the topic thus far. I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. McCammon, Blue World, p. 81, 1991." Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 5 01:48:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 21:48:17 -0400 Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" Message-ID: Sign carried by a homeless black man in Florence, South Carolina. Caps as in the original. What's of interest - to me, anyway - is that a speaker unable to distinguish "sing" from "sang," presumably because his dialect recognizes no such distinction, nevertheless uses "4" for "for," despite the fact that BE *does* distinguish between "4" [foU] and "for" [fO(r)] / [f^(r)] and, in the St. Louis BE of my lost youth, "for" falls together with "far," as expected. Like, I *still* trip over "4" in place of "for," in reading. But, I *never* confuse "sing" and "sang" in writing. A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? Youneverknow. [The classification of this comment is ;-). This comment is classified ;-).] -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 5 09:34:11 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:34:11 +0000 Subject: "Nocebo" = the opposite of a placebo Message-ID: A placebo effect tends to give a positive feeling about a new test issue, so a "nocebo" gives a negative effect on a test issue due to pre-existing feelings. http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-replication-2014-5 Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Tue Aug 5 11:26:11 2014 From: 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Michael Sheehan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:26:11 -0400 Subject: Domesticated slang Message-ID: Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that started out as slang but then became accepted as standard? Michael Sheehan theseniorcorner.weebly.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 6 02:47:39 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 02:47:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Hello" Message-ID: hello (OED 1827) 1826 _Norwich_ (Conn.) _Courier_ 18 Oct. 4 (America's Historical Newspapers) Hello, Jim! I'll tell you what: I've a sharp knife and feel as if I'd like to cut up something or other. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 6 23:22:37 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:22:37 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <201408062312.s76Jx2Ok001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) DanG On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: The age-old maxim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Or at least as old as the London Underground. > > ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter > who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as he > was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, men, > women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away from > the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next train to > arrive. Heart-warming. but ... > > The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old > maxim, 'watch the gap'." > > Well ... > > A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer > report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who > has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:24:29 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:24:29 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <807864.18270.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8/6/2014 07:12 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Or at least as old as the London Underground. Wikipedia claims the age-old maxim is younger than thee and me. "It was first introduced in 1969 on the London Underground in the United Kingdom." Joel >ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter >who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as >he was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, >men, women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away >from the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next >train to arrive. Heart-warming. but ... > >The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old >maxim, 'watch the gap'." > >Well ... > >A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer >report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who >has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 6 23:31:02 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:31:02 -0400 Subject: "Play me didgeridoo" Message-ID: The oldie, Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport, has the verse, Play me _didgeridoo_, Blue Play me _didgeridoo_ Having never heard the word before, I interpreted the verse as, Play me didgeri, do, Blue Play me didgeri, do the otiose "do" being not uncommon in non-North-American dialects of English, according to the media. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:33:51 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:33:51 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/6/2014 07:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >"Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a >passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) I didn't know that, and I grew up in NYC. Wikipedia tells me the LIRR was established in 1834, a bit before the London Underground (1863). I wonder when the LIRR started saying "Watch the gap". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 6 23:12:25 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim Message-ID: Or at least as old as the London Underground. ABC World News tonight carried the story of the Australian commuter who got his foot caught between the platform and the subway car as he was entering. Through the efforts of dozens on the platform, men, women, and children, joining to push the car sufficiently away from the platform, he was freed. Uninjured, he boarded the next train to arrive. Heart-warming. but ... The ABC narrator ended with the advice to "remember the age-old maxim, 'watch the gap'." Well ... A little later, the CBS Evening News got it right. In a briefer report, the caption under the video was "Mind the gap". Anyone who has heard this intoned by a male voice of doom can hardly forget. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 7 03:13:16 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 22:13:16 -0500 Subject: QUILTBAG Message-ID: This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender/Transsexual, Bisexual, Allied/Asexual, Gay/Genderqueer. It is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounceable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on the GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 7 11:27:31 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 04:27:31 -0700 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning Undecided Intersex Lesbian Transgender/Transsexual Bisexual Allied/Asexual Gay/Genderqueer. It is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounceable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on the GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag a 2011 handout on acronyms in this domain (including QUILTBAG): http://www.stanford.edu/~zwicky/SemFest12.pdf Categories and Labels: LGBPPTQQQEIOAAAF2/SGL ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Thu Aug 7 11:51:26 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 12:51:26 +0100 Subject: OED -- Problems with CRACKMANS and RUFFMANS In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: RUFFMANS as a cant term for a hedge is first recorded in Thomas Harman, _A Caveat for Common Cursitors_ (1567), while CRACKMANS is noted with the same meaning in S.R., _Martin Mark-all_ (1610). While the OED correctly begins the respective entries with these citations, the remainder of both entries contain problems. The OED cites one of three occurrences of CRACKMANS in _Martin Mark-all_, but omits one which is significant: Ruffmans, not the hedge or bushes as heretofore : but now the eauesing of houses or roofes: Cragmans is now vsed for the hedge. [E3v] Here, we have a variant spelling CRAGMANS (noted in GDoS but not the OED), and a meaning of RUFFMANS not included in the OED definition of RUFFMANS. The second citation in the OED, from Jonson's _Masque of the Gypsies_, is given with a publication date of 1640, and dated as "a1637" (since Jonson died in 1637). The masque was performed in 1621, and that date should be included. The third citation is from the _New Canting Dictionary_ of 1725. This is an extension of the definition in B.E., _New Dictionary of the Canting Crew_ (1699), where the definition of CRACKMANS is taken from Richard Head's _Canting Academy_ (1673), repeating Head's earlier instance of this in _The English Rogue_ (1665). Head in turn has as his source Thomas Dekker, _Lanthorne and Candlelight_ (originally published in 1608, but with CRACKMANS first appearing there in the expanded second _O per se O_ edition of 1612, and repeated in later editions of L&C). No overt notice of Dekker or Head then in the OED entry, but the final citation is: 1737 _Bacchus and Venus_ Canting Songs ix. Thou the Crackmans down did beat. The _Bacchus and Venus_ of 1737 is simply a reprint, with a new title page and date but identical font and pagination, of the _New Canting Dictionary_ of 1725, given in the previous OED citation. Further, the Canting Songs in the _New Canting Dictionary_ itself are taken from Richard Head, _The Courtier's Academy_ (1673), which in turn derives its texts from Thomas Dekker's _Lanthorne and Candlelight_. The poem in question is first printed in the 1616 edition of L&C: 6. When the Dark-mans haue been wet, thou the Crack-mans downe didst beate, For Glymmar, whilst a Quacking chete, or Tib ath? Buttry was our meate. [P3v] At the least, the 1737 citation should be replaced by Thomas Dekker in 1616. When we turn to the OED entry on RUFFMANS, similar problems arise. Leaving aside the OED suggestion that there is a variant spelling, RUFFMAN (no final -s) for which the OED gives no evidence, and the omission of the 1610 meaning noted above, the first three citations are relatively uncontentious. The problems begin with the third citation: 1665 HEAD, _English Rogue_ -- Then did we creep, And plant in Ruffe-mans low. See Thomas Dekker, _O per se O_ (1612), O1v: When they did seeke, then did we creepe, / and plant in ruffe-mans low. 1725 _New Canting Dictionary_ -- While some are sent to break the _Ruffmans_, or Woods ... See Richard Head, _The Canting Academy_ (1673), p. 4, which the NCD reproduces word-for-word in the citation given by the OED. 1785 F. GROSE _Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue_ - I will not conceal ought I win ... Again, this is word-for-word from _The Canting Academy_ (p. 4 again), possibly via the _New Canting Dictionary_ which again reproduces Head in this instance. Thus the OED 1725 and 1785 citations both derive from a single locus in Head in 1673 which is not itself noted by the OED. The documentation of cant terms may be difficult, and there is a question of how much material is appropriate for a general dictionary such as the OED (GDoS obviously gives fuller documentation in this area, but exhibits similar problems when it comes to the reproduction of material taken by the cited source from an earlier text), but it helps to keep in mind the central line of cant documentation: Harman (1567) => Dekker (1608, and later) => Head (1665 and 1673) => B.E. (1699) => New Canting Dictionary (1725) => Grose (1785 and later). Robin Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 7 13:44:51 2014 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:44:51 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2U001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Mullins Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bill Mullins Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 7 14:38:30 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 10:38:30 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <000f01cfb245$c3dfb7e0$4b9f27a0$@com> Message-ID: Maybe because, when used rather than (as here) mentioned, "{You're/I'm/she's/he's} a QUILTBAG" sounds like an insult, albeit an obscure one. LH On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in > LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. > > It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Bill Mullins > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= > ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 7 14:55:01 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 17:55:01 +0300 Subject: 2008 normcore Message-ID: The OxfordWords blog says "onomast Nancy Friedman has unearthed an example of the word from 2005", but this isn't quite accurate. http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014/04/can-core-survive-normcore/ Nancy wrote: [Begin] Normcore had a pre-K-Hole existence, albeit an obscure and cultish one. According to an Urban Dictionary entry published in March 2009, ?normcore? first appeared in the webcomic Templar, Arizona, which launched in May 2005. [End] Here's the UD definition: [Begin] A subculture based on conscious, artificial adoption of things that are in widespread use, proven to be acceptable, or otherwise inoffensive. Ultra-conformists. First featured as a fictional population in the webcomic Templar, Arizona, but normcores are totally real. [Begin example] Oh, shee-it! You just got gang signed by the worst of 'em! Y'see the slight forward tilt of the chin, and the causal "hey" with the silent H? That means he's NORMCORE. Dangerously regular. Dresses only in T-shirts and jeans, uses slang appropriated from other subcultures, but only 3 years after its first use, an' only after it's been used in a sitcom." [End example] by Skaught March 27, 2009 [End] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=normcore&defid=3836963 Paul McFedries wrote: [Begin] "The Urban Dictionary cite goes on to claim that normcore was "First featured as a fictional population in the webcomic Templar, Arizona." Based on that slim lead, I read the four years (!) of Templar, Arizona comics that appeared before March 27, 2009, but I didn't find any evidence of the word. ("Read" is, admittedly, too strong a word here. "Skimmed-because-hey-I-have-a-life" would be closer to the truth, so it's possible I missed it. If so, and you know which comic the word appears in, drop me a line" [End] http://www.wordspy.com/words/normcore.asp I've found the comic. Perhaps the reason Paul didn't find it in the main archives is because it wasn't by the the comic's regular author Charlie "Spike" Trotman but a one-off guest comic by Ryan Estrada. As part of his "Ryan Estrada Day" he drew 70 guest comics and posted them on Wednesday 17 September 2008. http://web.archive.org/web/20080921063143/http://www.ryanestrada.com/2008/09/20/comics/guest-strips/templar-az/ http://web.archive.org/web/20080918065238/http://www.webcomicsnation.com/spike/Templar/series.php?view=single&ID=126095 Here's the text, slightly different from the UD definition: [Begin] Oh, shee-yit! You just got gang signed by the worse of 'em! Y'see the slight tilt of his chin, and the casual "hey" with the silent H? That means he's NORMCORE. Dangerously regular. Dresses only in T-shirts an' jeans, uses slang appropriated from other sub cultures, but only 3 years after it's first use, an' only after it's been used in a sitcom. [End] Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 7 15:50:41 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 15:50:41 +0000 Subject: QUILTBAG (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE When I read it, the similarity to "douchebag" immediately popped into mind. I can't think of any word used to refer to people that ends in -bag that wouldn't run the risk of being perceived as pejorative (scumbag, "you old bag", dirtbag, windbag). Moneybags, maybe, is positive. See OED: Bag -- slang (orig. U.S.). A disparaging term for a woman; (originally) a sexually promiscuous woman; (later) an unattractive or elderly woman; = baggage n. 6. Quiltbag may carry too much baggage to gain traction. But, as Wilson says, Youneverknow. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Laurence Horn > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 9:39 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Maybe because, when used rather than (as here) mentioned, = > "{You're/I'm/she's/he's} a QUILTBAG" sounds like an insult, albeit an = > obscure one. > > LH > > On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:44 AM, David Barnhart wrote: > > > Interesting. It appears to have a way to go. Only 5 publications in > >LexisNexis and three of them are from Australia. > >=20 > > It's in the Urban Dictionary, for whatever that is worth. > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On = > Behalf Of > > Bill Mullins > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: QUILTBAG > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Bill Mullins > > Subject: QUILTBAG > > = > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---= > -- > > --- > >=20 > > This is a new one on me: > > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=3D2C Undecided=3D2C Intersex=3D2C = > Lesbian=3D2C Tr=3D > > ansgender/Transsexual=3D2C Bisexual=3D2C Allied/Asexual=3D2C = > Gay/Genderqueer. It =3D > > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more = > pronounc=3D > > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions > > = > on th=3D > > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > > =3D > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 7 16:18:56 2014 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 12:18:56 -0400 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2U001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: QUILTBAG, while cute, is hardly more than a "stunt word" so far. Nexis = 5 articles. Google News = 1 article. And there are not 2 Q's as would be required for both _queer_ and _questioning_, 2 A's for _allied_ and _asexual_, and 2 G's for _gay_ and _genderqueer_. DKB -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Mullins Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bill Mullins Subject: QUILTBAG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- This is a new one on me: " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 7 16:28:58 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 16:28:58 +0000 Subject: QUILTBAG (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <7c35fd40aa3649f8947e4c56a48691d8@UGUNHPTN.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I ran across it here: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2014/08/06/the-big-idea-alisa-krasnostein/ Newsbank has two articles using the word. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of David Barnhart > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2014 11:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Barnhart > Subject: Re: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > QUILTBAG, while cute, is hardly more than a "stunt word" so far. > > Nexis = 5 articles. > Google News = 1 article. > > And there are not 2 Q's as would be required for both _queer_ and > _questioning_, 2 A's for _allied_ and _asexual_, and 2 G's for _gay_ > and _genderqueer_. > > DKB > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Mullins > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 11:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: QUILTBAG > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C > Lesbian=2C Tr= ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C > Gay/Genderqueer. It = is meant to be a more inclusive term than > GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= eable (and memorable) than some of > the other variations or extensions on th= e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Aug 7 16:36:52 2014 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: QUILTBAG In-Reply-To: <201408070313.s76Nad2M001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I first encountered "QUILTBAG" in connection with a short-lived webcomic by that name, written by T Campbell (better known for "Penny and Aggie" and "The Guilded Age"). The comic ran for about four months in early 2012. Jim Parish On 8/6/2014 10:13 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: QUILTBAG > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a new one on me: > " It stands for Queer/Questioning=2C Undecided=2C Intersex=2C Lesbian=2C Tr= > ansgender/Transsexual=2C Bisexual=2C Allied/Asexual=2C Gay/Genderqueer. It = > is meant to be a more inclusive term than GLBT/LGBT and to be more pronounc= > eable (and memorable) than some of the other variations or extensions on th= > e GLBT/LGBT abbreviation." > http://queerdictionary.tumblr.com/post/3899608042/quiltbag > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 03:29:32 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 22:29:32 -0500 Subject: Tennessee Walking Horse Message-ID: OED has 1938 Baton Rouge LA _Advocate_ 22 Mar 1936 p 7B col 2[classified ad]"At Stud Handsome Allen No. 530103 Tennesee Walking Horse" Tennessee Walker -- OED has 1960_Dallas Morning News_ 26 Jan 1941 sec 2 p 9 col 2[classified ad]"Palomino stallion at stud. Golden Sandstorm sires five-gaited Palominos and Tennesee walkerby mares of same breeding; the last word in a golden stud." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 09:38:04 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 12:38:04 +0300 Subject: 2008 normcore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I asked Ryan Estrada if he remembers if he heard/saw "normcore" before using it in the comic, or was it his own idea. He replied: "I made it up for the comic, but that doesn?t mean I was first to do that portmanteau!" https://twitter.com/ryanestrada/status/497544010739638272 Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 15:02:49 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 18:02:49 +0300 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" Message-ID: byte (OED 1964) Fred Shapiro's 1962 is by Werner Buchholz writing about IBM's Project Stretch. Here's some 1956 memos by Buchholz. June 11, 1956, Werner Buchholz, THE LINK SYSTEM: [Begin] Figure 2 shows the Shift Matrix to be used to convert a 60-bit word, coming from Memory in parallel, into characters, or "bytes" we have called them, to be sent to the Adder serially. ... It is just as easy to use all six bits in alphanumeric work, or to handle bytes of only one bit for logical analysis, or to offset the bytes by any number of bits. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-07/102632284.pdf STRETCH MEMO NO. 40 (Buchholz, July 31, 1956) also mentions bytes of 6 bits. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632289.pdf And by STRETCH MEMO NO. 45 (Buchholz, September 19, 1956) bytes became 8-bit. [Begin] Input-Output Byte Size The maximum input-output byte size for serial operation will now be 8 bits, not counting any error detection and correction bits. Thus, the Exchange will operate on an 8-bit byte basis, and any input-output units with less than 8 bits per byte will leave the remaining bits blank. The resultant gaps can be edited out later by programming. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632292.pdf Here's a long list of IBM Strech documents. I've checked the earlier Buchholz ones, as he's credited with coining it, but there's a slight chance it may appear in other documents. Note some PDFs 404, so just google for IBM Stretch and the document name (e.g. "IBM Strech 102632284.pdf" without quotes) should bring a working link from the Computer History Museum). http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 8 15:03:03 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:03:03 +0000 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although there are a few such words - "jazz"comes immediately to mind ? the percentage must be well under 1%. And even "jazz" is necessarily an outlier, because its passage from sign to standard English was accompanied by a change in meaning. Jazz words usually have standard English counterparts, and it must be unusual for the standard English term to be displaced by the slang term. John Baker > On Aug 5, 2014, at 7:27 AM, "Michael Sheehan" <000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> wrote: > > Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that started out as slang but then became accepted as standard? > > Michael Sheehan > theseniorcorner.weebly.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 18:25:50 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 14:25:50 -0400 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408051126.s75BBJZq001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A percentage is one way to represent a fraction of a whole. There are big problems with your question in that respect. If your whole is the total number of English words, then you need criteria for what counts as a word (and also for a slang word, and also for evidence that it has been accepted as standard). You're not even giving an example of a word that "started out as slang but then became accepted as standard". (John Baker guesses you might accept "jazz".) There is no clear, accepted way to count how many words there are in Standard English, the best you can hope for is to estimate to the nearest order of magnitude, which is likely going to be 10^5 (some examples along the lines of word lists that attempt to define Standard English are here: http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts-readme/ ). You'll need to decide what order of magnitude makes up the slang words in English that have become accepted as standard. This seems to me a bigger challenge. Do you have a list? Once you have a list, or can guess at how many there are, round to the nearest order of magnitude and then put that into your fraction. Since a fraction is another way to express division, you'll have to round in a special way: three or lower rounds down to one, and four or higher rounds up to ten. This is because 3*3=9 (in the 10^0, or "ones" order of magnitude), but 4*4=16 (in the 10^1, or "tens" order or magnitude). When we're multiplying or dividing ballpark numbers, we want the resulting order of magnitude to be close, and since multiplying by ten is the number that defines the next order of magnitude, and the square root of ten is between three and four, that's where we split the rounding. But maybe a better way to answer your question would be to ask you to put it in much clearer terms. :) Randy On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Michael Sheehan < 000000e73f3db4b1-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Sheehan > Subject: Domesticated slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can anyone give me an approximate percentage of English words that = > started out as slang but then became accepted as standard?=20 > > Michael Sheehan > theseniorcorner.weebly.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog Music: http://www.metafilter.com/activity/56219/posts/music/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 8 18:34:39 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 18:34:39 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Byte" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fantastic antedatings, Hugo! I see my role on ADS-L as casting out preliminary antedatings for Garson, Hugo, Stephen Goranson, and others to improve upon. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Hugo [hugovk at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 11:02 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Byte" byte (OED 1964) Fred Shapiro's 1962 is by Werner Buchholz writing about IBM's Project Stretch. Here's some 1956 memos by Buchholz. June 11, 1956, Werner Buchholz, THE LINK SYSTEM: [Begin] Figure 2 shows the Shift Matrix to be used to convert a 60-bit word, coming from Memory in parallel, into characters, or "bytes" we have called them, to be sent to the Adder serially. ... It is just as easy to use all six bits in alphanumeric work, or to handle bytes of only one bit for logical analysis, or to offset the bytes by any number of bits. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-07/102632284.pdf STRETCH MEMO NO. 40 (Buchholz, July 31, 1956) also mentions bytes of 6 bits. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632289.pdf And by STRETCH MEMO NO. 45 (Buchholz, September 19, 1956) bytes became 8-bit. [Begin] Input-Output Byte Size The maximum input-output byte size for serial operation will now be 8 bits, not counting any error detection and correction bits. Thus, the Exchange will operate on an 8-bit byte basis, and any input-output units with less than 8 bits per byte will leave the remaining bits blank. The resultant gaps can be edited out later by programming. [End] http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/06-08/102632292.pdf Here's a long list of IBM Strech documents. I've checked the earlier Buchholz ones, as he's credited with coining it, but there's a slight chance it may appear in other documents. Note some PDFs 404, so just google for IBM Stretch and the document name (e.g. "IBM Strech 102632284.pdf" without quotes) should bring a working link from the Computer History Museum). http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/IBM/Stretch/pdfs/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 8 19:13:23 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 03:13:23 +0800 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408081825.s78FIxU0001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ?WB: King Alfred would regard 100% of succeeding generations of English users as English abusers. Broadly speaking, every linguistic change can upset some one, who would classify it as the vulgar corruption of somebody up to no good, and put into a collection of proscribed words, phrases, constructions, or text. One man's slang is another person's hate-list. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Fri Aug 8 19:21:11 2014 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 20:21:11 +0100 Subject: Domesticated slang In-Reply-To: <201408081825.s78FIxUE001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: << From: Randy Alexander You're not even giving an example of a word that "started out as slang but then became accepted as standard". (John Baker guesses you might accept "jazz".) >> Some possibilities ... CHEAT ROGUE FOIST DECOY (OK, it's arguable whether this did begin life as cant) TIP (becomes SE 'a gratuity') BOOZE (if this is now SE) SEEDY -- - down-at-heel Then there's SNAFFLE, which the OED implies is still 'dial. or slang', but I'd feel was now pretty much SE. OED Sense 1 is defined as "To steal, purloin", and has the first (of only three) cites in this sense from the _New Canting Dictionary_ (1725). This probably ought rather to be "Frisky Moll's Song" from the opera (?) _Harlequin Sheppard_ performed and published earlier the same year, which is where the editor of the NCD picked up the term (along with reprinting the Song). Actually, it appears earlier, along with the first occurrence of SEEDY, in "John Sheppard's Last Epistle", printed on 16 November 1724, the day Jack Sheppard was hanged. To be noted, the examples I've given above begin as criminal argot, which isn't quite the same as slang. IMHO. Robin Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Sat Aug 9 04:38:26 2014 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Baron, Dennis E) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 04:38:26 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?=93Like=94_just_means=2C_=93Uh_huh=94?= Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: ?Like? just means, ?Uh huh? Like has a new meaning. The word used to mean ?feel affection for,? ?take pleasure in,? or ?enjoy.? Now, thanks to Facebook, like can also mean, ?Yes, I read what you wrote,? or just a noncommital ?uh huh.? Like was once a word that could be charged with emotion?as when Hamlet cruelly asks his mother to comment on the play that re-enacts the murder of his father: "Madam, how like you this play?" This gets Gertrude all upset. Now like can simply mean, ?So, what else is new?? Or even just, ?I clicked on this.? . . . Read the entire post on the Web of Language: http://bit.ly/weblan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:02:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:02:12 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408050106.s74LlTF8001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. JL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published > b= > y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of > materia= > l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:04:51 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:04:51 -0400 Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" In-Reply-To: <201408050148.s74LlTQa001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? Welcum 2 the future! JL On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Will _SANG 4_ FOOD" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sign carried by a homeless black man in Florence, South Carolina. Caps as > in the original. > > What's of interest - to me, anyway - is that a speaker unable to > distinguish "sing" from "sang," presumably because his dialect recognizes > no such distinction, nevertheless uses "4" for "for," despite the fact that > BE *does* distinguish between "4" [foU] and "for" [fO(r)] / [f^(r)] and, in > the St. Louis BE of my lost youth, "for" falls together with "far," as > expected. > > Like, I *still* trip over "4" in place of "for," in reading. But, I *never* > confuse "sing" and "sang" in writing. > > A man who's computer-literate, but who's not "grammar"-literate? > > Youneverknow. > > [The classification of this comment is ;-). This comment is classified > ;-).] > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 13:06:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 09:06:15 -0400 Subject: The age-old maxim In-Reply-To: <201408062333.s76Jx2WU001829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I never huyrd of it either. JL On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: The age-old maxim > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2014 07:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > >"Watch the gap" is age old if you live on Lon Gisland and don't have a > >passport. (It's what they say on the LIRR.) > > I didn't know that, and I grew up in NYC. > > Wikipedia tells me the LIRR was established in 1834, a bit before the > London Underground (1863). I wonder when the LIRR started saying > "Watch the gap". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 10 14:47:46 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 14:47:46 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Friend" (= Quaker) Message-ID: A website called "Quaker Historical Lexicon" gives the following antedating for "friend" (OED, 7.b., 1656): But the single word ?Friends? appears just as early, as in the following sentence from a 1653 letter from Gervase Benson to George Fox and James Nayler, reproduced in A.R. Barclay?s Letters, &c of Early Friends (1841) p. 3: As for the Friends? enlargement at Kendal, George Taylor, I hope, hath or will give you an account. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 10 15:34:58 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: Domesticating slang Message-ID: However one feels like defining "slang" (and nobody can stop you), John's estimate of "well under 1%" is about as close as you're going to get. If you're restricting "slang" to formal neologisms like "jazz" and "jeep" and "OK," you'll go way, way lower than that. Does "blog" count? Why or why not? King Alfred didn't even know the word "slang," and I doubt he'd judge the general usage of succeeding generations in anything like that way. (See the nigh-universally neglected intro to HDAS I.) Undoubtedly he'd consider it strange and incomprehensible, yet too extensive and nuanced to be merely "corrupt." Maybe he'd take a course. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 11 21:59:04 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:59:04 +0000 Subject: missile silo (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has 1958 for silo in the missile sense. Baton Rouge LA _Advocate_ 26 Nov 1957 p 3C col 1 "The Air Force will spend $300 million for construction of a intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) launching silo about 100 miles northwest of here, the Anchorage Times reported." Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU Tue Aug 12 02:11:46 2014 From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (Bergdahl, David) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:11:46 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news Message-ID: A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on cable news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in [nuz] fashionable? David Bergdahl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 03:41:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 23:41:06 -0400 Subject: More Facebook: "lay and wait" Message-ID: "Yet you can _lay and wait_ with a loaded assault rifle, on an overpass." For "lie in wait"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 04:53:10 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 00:53:10 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook Message-ID: "Another trend [in Central Texas] is pronouncing the long a as a long e. Examples: baby as beeby, came as ceeme, date, deet...Jake, Jeek...wait weet..." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Aug 12 05:33:22 2014 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 01:33:22 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook In-Reply-To: <201408120453.s7C1upcl005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson. I didn't know about this /e/-raising in Central Texas, but I've heard of it from the Pacific Northwest., and I believe, as a recent development, in Bill Labov's Philadelphia material. The last one could be a reaction to [ei] > [Ei], too. Paul On Aug 12, 2014, at 12:53 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Another trend [in Central Texas] is pronouncing the long a as a long e. > Examples: baby as beeby, came as ceeme, date, deet...Jake, Jeek...wait > weet..." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 07:18:12 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 03:18:12 -0400 Subject: Anybody here noticed this anywhere? More Facebook In-Reply-To: <201408120533.s7C1upfx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 1:33 AM, Paul Johnston wrote: > I didn't know about this /e/-raising in Central Texas, but I've heard of > it from the Pacific Northwest., and I believe, as a recent development, in > Bill Labov's Philadelphia material. The last one could be a reaction to > [ei] > [Ei], too. That's close enough for government work, Paul. An Fb-friend from East Texas posted an article on Valley-girl-isms and a friend of his from Stephen F. Austin State - now that I think about it, that school is in *East* Texas and not Central Texas - responded with what I've quoted. Since that's the entirety of the post, it's not clear that the poster was necessarily talking about something that she'd heard in Texas. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 07:34:36 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 03:34:36 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408101302.s7AA1ifb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Never heard of it. Who is "we"? > > I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that > effect. > What chemical agent used *anywhere* has this effect? The honey-bee-killing insecticide? Still sounds like an interesting read, though. Hope I can afford it! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From byagoda at UDEL.EDU Tue Aug 12 13:48:55 2014 From: byagoda at UDEL.EDU (Yagoda, Ben) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 13:48:55 +0000 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408121343.s7CD0kER005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Where is your colleague from? The first time I was aware of hearing "Japanese" and "Chinese" pronounced that way was from my mother-in-law, born (pre-1920) and raised in Chicago. On Aug 12, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Herb Stahlke > Subject: Re: 'noose' = news ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" sound like they end in /-is/. Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 14:00:14 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 14:00:14 +0000 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408120215.s7C1up3L005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Saying the letter "s" as an ~s for plurals is one of the two big changes in pronunciation I've noticed over the years. (The other is awe-dropping - some folks never saying the sound "awe" but "ah" in its place.) So "news" is mistakenly said as "noose" and "eyes" as "ice". Not good. In fact presidents Bush2 and Obama have this tendency. Here is/are my data on letter "s" as seen in print https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PteYgrmV3Wk . This is from truespel book 3. which has data on all 26 letters and 40 sounds of US English in terms of frequency in print. The letter "z" is the least used letter by far, but the sound ~z is in the top third of popularity (rank 13 out of 40). I find that the sound ~z is spelled by letter "s" about 95% of the time in print (which is similar to speech also), and only about 3% of the time is the sound ~z spelled by letter "z". The problem is that elementary schools do not teach pronunciation. They reason is that pronunciation guides are too cryptic. But a simple guide like truespel makes pronunciation easy enough for k-1. In fact "phonetics" is a k-1 requirement for common core. Truespel is the answer. See http://justpaste.it/comcoreenglish . But it appears to me that hardly anyone in English education knows what phonetics is. They are still coming out of the "whole word" dark ages. Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bergdahl, David" > Subject: 'noose' = news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on cab= > le news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in [nuz= > ] fashionable? =20 > > David Bergdahl= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 13:43:20 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 09:43:20 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408120215.s7C1up3B005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" sound like they end in /-is/. Herb On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Bergdahl, David wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bergdahl, David" > Subject: 'noose' = news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few times in the past week I've heard "news" pronounced as "noose" on > cab= > le news (probably CNN or MSNBC). Is the devoicing of the final /z/ in > [nuz= > ] fashionable? =20 > > David Bergdahl= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 15:53:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:53:18 -0400 Subject: bangarang Message-ID: The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was, among other things, "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 15:56:51 2014 From: caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM (caitlin o) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:56:51 -0400 Subject: bangarang Message-ID: It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool, awesome, or rad. --- Original Message --- From: "Jonathan Lighter" Sent: August 12, 2014 11:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: bangarang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was, among other things, "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 16:00:28 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 12:00:28 -0400 Subject: bangarang In-Reply-To: <201408121557.s7CF07kt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Like "bang-up"? JL On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:56 AM, caitlin o wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: caitlin o > Subject: Re: bangarang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool=2C awesome=2C or rad. > > --- Original Message --- > > From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Sent: August 12=2C 2014 11:53 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: bangarang > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ---- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: bangarang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ---- > > The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was=2C among > other things=2C "a bangarang Peter Pan." > > Wha'? > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is=2C you can't handle the > truth= > ." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 12 16:09:27 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 16:09:27 +0000 Subject: bangarang In-Reply-To: <201408121557.s7CF07kx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From urbandictionary.com : bangarang 1. Battle cry of the Lost Boys in the movie Hook. 2. Jamaican slang defined as a hubbub, uproar, disorder, or disturbance. 3. General exclamation meant to signify approval or amazement. 1. "Bangarang!" 2. "What be all that bangarang?" 3. "Dude, I boned my psych professor last night." "Bangarang!" Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of caitlin o [caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:56 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: caitlin o Subject: Re: bangarang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's from Hook. They use it to mean cool=2C awesome=2C or rad. --- Original Message --- From: "Jonathan Lighter" Sent: August 12=2C 2014 11:53 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: bangarang ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------= ---- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: bangarang ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- The President of the United States tweets that Robin Williams was=2C among other things=2C "a bangarang Peter Pan." Wha'? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is=2C you can't handle the truth= ." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 16:33:36 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 12:33:36 -0400 Subject: 'noose' = news In-Reply-To: <201408121349.s7CD0kHX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My colleague is from Connecticut. On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Yagoda, Ben wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Yagoda, Ben" > Subject: Re: 'noose' = news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Where is your colleague from? The first time I was aware of hearing > "Japane= > se" and "Chinese" pronounced that way was from my mother-in-law, born > (pre-= > 1920) and raised in Chicago. > > On Aug 12, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ---- > Sender: American Dialect Society ADS-L= > @LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> > Poster: Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.CO= > M>> > Subject: Re: 'noose' =3D news > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ---- > > What you might be hearing is a lack of lengthening in the vowel as we would > expect before a syllable-final lenis consonant. Unless followed by a > voiced segment, the /z/ of news would devoice anyway. Without the vowel > length, we would hear devoiced /z/ as [s]. I have a colleague who shortens > the vowel regularly in the suffix -ese, so that "Japanese" and "Chinese" > sound like they end in /-is/. > > Herb > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 12 19:48:23 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: hone down into Message-ID: I've heard or read "hone in (on)" often enough not to be struck by it anymore, but today I read "hone down into" in the sense of "drill down into" or "explore more deeply." The writer is usually pretty careful, so it surprised me I suppose it could come from "hone in on." I don't see any link to "home in on." Google gives 60K raw hits. Herb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:12:13 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 16:12:13 +0300 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody appears in: * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell But I found no other references. Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:24:49 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:24:49 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131312.s7DA2Ivv005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his stories. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody > appears in: > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell > > But I found no other references. > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Aug 13 13:35:54 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:35:54 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe in Masques : all new works of horror and the supernatural / J N Williamson 1984 1st ed. English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm. Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180 "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon available online: http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of ADSGarson O'Toole Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his stories. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody > appears in: > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell > > But I found no other references. > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:45:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:45:11 -0400 Subject: QOTY Message-ID: David Sipress cartoon in New Yorker, Aug. 11, p. 73: "Politics is the art of nothing is possible." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 13:57:38 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:57:38 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131335.s7DDHX5J005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Stephen. Yes, I think Robert R. McCammon's short story "Nightcrawlers" is the right work. Tom Dalzell points to "Blue World" which is a collection of short stories by McCammon. Using "Amazon Look Inside" it is possible to see the page with the "Howdy Doody" match and the table of contents; together they indicate that the match is in "Nightcrawlers". The full text of "Nightcrawlers" that Stephen located shows the same matching passage about the (perhaps fictional) "Howdy Doody" chemical agent. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe in=0A= > Masques : =0A= > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= > J N Williamson=0A= > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= > Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= > =0A= > "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon=0A= > available online:=0A= > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of ADSGar= > son O'Toole =0A= > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > =0A= > Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= > may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > stories.=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote:=0A= >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------= > ------=0A= >> Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= >> Poster: Hugo =0A= >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------=0A= >>=0A= >> Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy Doody=0A= >> appears in:=0A= >>=0A= >> * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Engli= > sh=0A= >> (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= >>=0A= >> * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional= > =0A= >> English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= >>=0A= >> But I found no other references.=0A= >>=0A= >> Hugo=0A= >>=0A= >> ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 14:06:39 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 10:06:39 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408131357.s7DDHXDv005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, Robert McCammon was born in 1952 and received a bachelor's in journalism in 1974. He seems not to have served in Vietnam. JL On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:57 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Stephen. Yes, I think Robert R. McCammon's short story > "Nightcrawlers" is the right work. Tom Dalzell points to "Blue World" > which is a collection of short stories by McCammon. Using "Amazon Look > Inside" it is possible to see the page with the "Howdy Doody" match > and the table of contents; together they indicate that the match is in > "Nightcrawlers". The full text of "Nightcrawlers" that Stephen located > shows the same matching passage about the (perhaps fictional) "Howdy > Doody" chemical agent. > > Garson > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Maybe in=0A= > > Masques : =0A= > > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= > > J N Williamson=0A= > > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= > > Baltimore : Maclay, ; ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= > > =0A= > > "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. McCammon=0A= > > available online:=0A= > > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > ________________________________________=0A= > > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of > ADSGar= > > son O'Toole =0A= > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > > =0A= > > Dalzell cites Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= > > may have invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > > stories.=0A= > > =0A= > > Garson=0A= > > =0A= > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo wrote:=0A= > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -----------------= > > ------=0A= > >> Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > >> Poster: Hugo =0A= > >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ------=0A= > >>=0A= > >> Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy > Doody=0A= > >> appears in:=0A= > >>=0A= > >> * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional > Engli= > > sh=0A= > >> (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= > >>=0A= > >> * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and Unconventional= > > =0A= > >> English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= > >>=0A= > >> But I found no other references.=0A= > >>=0A= > >> Hugo=0A= > >>=0A= > >> ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Wed Aug 13 14:44:11 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 14:44:11 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE McCammon's "Nightcrawlers" is online here: http://www.nightmare-magazine.com/fiction/nightcrawlers/ A quote: "I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray we called Howdy Doody - because it made you stiffen up and jerk like you were hanging on strings." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Stephen Goranson > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 8:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Maybe in=0A= > Masques : =0A= > all new works of horror and the supernatural /=0A= J N Williamson=0A= > 1984 1st ed.=0A= > English Book Book : Fiction 306 p. ; 22 cm.=0A= Baltimore : Maclay, ; > ISBN: 0940776189 9780940776180=0A= =0A= "Nightcrawlers" by Robert R. > McCammon=0A= available online:=0A= > http://www.robertmccammon.com/fiction/nightcrawlers.html=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of > ADSGar= son O'Toole =0A= > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 9:24 AM=0A= > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0A= > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= =0A= Dalzell cites > Robert R. McCammon who is a notable horror writer. He=0A= may have > invented the "Howdy Doody" chemical agent for one of his=0A= > stories.=0A= =0A= Garson=0A= =0A= On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Hugo > wrote:=0A= > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > -----------------= > ------=0A= > > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > > Poster: Hugo =0A= > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang=0A= > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > ---= > ------=0A= > >=0A= > > Searching Google Books, the same or shorter definition of Howdy > >Doody=0A= appears in:=0A= =0A= > > * The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional > >Engli= > sh=0A= > > (2007) by Terry Victor, Tom Dalzell=0A= =0A= > > * The Routledge Dictionary of Modern American Slang and > >Unconventional= > =0A= > > English (2008) edited by Tom Dalzell=0A= =0A= But I found no other > >references.=0A= =0A= Hugo=0A= =0A= > >------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 15:08:15 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:08:15 -0400 Subject: Computational Linguistics of Twitter Message-ID: Computational Linguistics of Twitter Reveals the Existence of Global Superdialects The first study of dialects on Twitter reveals global patterns that have never been observed before. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/529836/computational-linguistics-of-twitter-reveals-the-existence-of-global-superdialects/ DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 15:31:19 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:31:19 -0400 Subject: Computational Linguistics of Twitter In-Reply-To: <201408131508.s7DEpRBd005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > Computational Linguistics of Twitter Reveals the Existence of Global > Superdialects > > The first study of dialects on Twitter reveals global patterns that have > never been observed before. > > http://www.technologyreview.com/view/529836/computational-linguistics-of-twitter-reveals-the-existence-of-global-superdialects/ Aside from any problems with the study itself, the sub-headline here is patently false -- in no way is this "the first study of dialects on Twitter." Jacob Eisenstein and his colleagues have been mining Twitter for U.S. dialectal patterns since 2010, presenting their findings at the 2011 LSA meeting. And at the 2012 ADS meeting, we heard Brice Russ present on his own research into "Twitalectology." Relevant links: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jeisenst/papers/emnlp2010.pdf http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jeisenst/papers/lsa.pdf http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/sunday/twitterology-a-new-science.html http://www.vocabulary.com/articles/wordroutes/tracking-dialects-on-twitter-whats-coo-and-whats-koo/ http://www.briceruss.com/?page_id=31 http://www.briceruss.com/ADStalk.pdf http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2012/01/15/american-dialects-from/XqI0XVzZBcwub6MA1F2fSK/story.html http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/02/regional-english-tweet-by-tweet/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 18:18:05 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 14:18:05 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: <201404231257.s3NCsmkQ020417@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. Here was one who was catnip to women. It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American Mercury_. JL On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: catnip for the ladies > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey > Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) > > 659,000 Google strikes. > > Earlier: > > 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and > mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. > > 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the > street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the > women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into > Kirk's dressing room some dark night. > > 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: > It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now > becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear > this until you are 50 years old. > > 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome > [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to > become catnip for the ladies. > > Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word > (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth."1943 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 13 22:15:36 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:15:36 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Slang_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share below with ads-l. "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to share with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better typify the material he came across in his research. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and for the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm surprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a couple places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as marginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 13 22:54:00 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 18:54:00 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408132215.s7DJRic5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jerry: Sharing some other entries sounds like a great idea. Clarification: Creating a comprehensive reference work about slang entails an enormous amount of effort. My conjectural comments about one intriguing and vivid entry were made in the spirit of exploration. I hope that the conversational thread will not be misconstrued as detractive. Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed = > chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Sla= > ng_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share= > below with ads-l. > > "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to sha= > re with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better ty= > pify the material he came across in his research. > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and fo= > r the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm s= > urprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a coup= > le places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as m= > arginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Than= > ks, Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at CABLEMO.NET Thu Aug 14 02:24:06 2014 From: dwhause at CABLEMO.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and published > b= > y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive compilation of > materia= > l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Aug 14 02:40:19 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:40:19 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm a former US Army chemical officer and I concur. The effects sound like a nerve agent, and being "drenched" with that would invariably be lethal. Plus, no nerve agents were used in Vietnam. Riot control agents and defoliants like Agent Orange, but not nerve agents. Of course, it could be some other kind of chemical other than a weapon. But I would point out that McCammon's "Blue World is a fantasy novel. I suspect the term was simply invented by McCammon, but I don't the wider context in which the quote is used in the novel. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and > published b= y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive > compilation of materia= l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Aug 14 10:54:48 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 06:54:48 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <00a201cfb769$16a20640$43e612c0$@net> Message-ID: Correction: Blue World is a collection of short stories, most of them fantasy and horror. Perhaps the one in which "howdy doody" appears is a more realistic one about Vietnam. I don't know. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:40 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang I'm a former US Army chemical officer and I concur. The effects sound like a nerve agent, and being "drenched" with that would invariably be lethal. Plus, no nerve agents were used in Vietnam. Riot control agents and defoliants like Agent Orange, but not nerve agents. Of course, it could be some other kind of chemical other than a weapon. But I would point out that McCammon's "Blue World is a fantasy novel. I suspect the term was simply invented by McCammon, but I don't the wider context in which the quote is used in the novel. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Over the years, the Army gave me way more education on chemical warfare than I ever looked for and NO chemical warfare gives this effect without also being lethal. The description of the effects would be typical of nerve agents, most of which are rapidly lethal in barely-visible-droplet quantities. To the best of my historical reading and experience, we didn't use any nerve agents in Viet Nam. "Drenching" quantities would contaminate a pretty large area. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Never heard of it. Who is "we"? I'd like to know what "chemical agent" used in Vietnam actually had that effect. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > For those interested in war slang, here's the title of a recently > published= > book: _Vietnam War Slang_, by slang researcher Tom Dalzell and > published b= y Routledge. I believe it's the most comprehensive > compilation of materia= l on the topic thus far.=20 > > I'll cite just one item of interest (selected at random): > "HOWDY DOODY (nn.) -- an unspecified chemical agent. US. > I've found out that those other men were drenched by a chemical spray > we called Howdy Doody -- because it made you stiffen up and jerk=20 > like you were hanging on strings.--- [source of quote]: Robert R. > McCammon, > Blue World, p. 81, 1991." > > Gerald Cohen= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Thu Aug 14 11:07:10 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:07:10 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz Message-ID: Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 14:35:45 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:35:45 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." Message-ID: You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells it out again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the bard "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! (Maybe both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's a riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already obsolete.) As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read Sonnet IV the same way again. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 14:49:31 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:49:31 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells it out > again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). > > But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the bard > "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! (Maybe > both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's a > riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already obsolete.) > > As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read Sonnet IV > the same way again. > > JL Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous niggard". LH > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 15:09:49 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:09:49 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: <201408141449.s7EDkVRB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) who said, "You can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." I stand corrected. JL On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = > it out > > again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). > >=20 > > But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = > bard > > "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! = > (Maybe > > both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's = > a > > riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already = > obsolete.) > >=20 > > As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read = > Sonnet IV > > the same way again. > >=20 > > JL > > Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless = > we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again = > it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = > line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous = > niggard". > > LH > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 15:42:47 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:42:47 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: <201408131818.s7DGtQZ3005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an example with a man described as catnip that seems to be negative. Title: The New Missioner Author: Mrs. Wilson Woodrow Year: 1907 Publisher: The McClure Company, New York Chapter: 19 Quote Page: 270 http://books.google.com/books?id=eWspAQAAIAAJ&q=catnip#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] "It's been six weeks an' more since Jack wrote her, commandin' her to come back the minute she got the letter, an' she ain't paid no more attention to it than if he was catnip," announced Mrs. Thomas. [End excerpt] Garson On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: catnip for the ladies > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): > > 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was > a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. > Here was one who was catnip to women. > > It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American > Mercury_. > > JL > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: catnip for the ladies >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey >> Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) >> >> 659,000 Google strikes. >> >> Earlier: >> >> 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and >> mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. >> >> 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the >> street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the >> women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into >> Kirk's dressing room some dark night. >> >> 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: >> It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now >> becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear >> this until you are 50 years old. >> >> 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome >> [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to >> become catnip for the ladies. >> >> Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word >> (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). >> >> JL >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth."1943 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 16:10:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:10:15 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous > niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. > > Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) Yeah, and that was after he shortened it to get past the censors. LH > who said, "You > can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." > > I stand corrected. > > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = >> it out >>> again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, 2005). >>> =20 >>> But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = >> bard >>> "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! = >> (Maybe >>> both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and what's = >> a >>> riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already = >> obsolete.) >>> =20 >>> As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read = >> Sonnet IV >>> the same way again. >>> =20 >>> JL >> >> Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken (unless = >> we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then again = >> it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = >> line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous = >> niggard". >> >> LH >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = >> truth." >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 16:12:49 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: catnip for the ladies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:42 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Here is an example with a man described as catnip that seems to be negative. > > Title: The New Missioner > Author: Mrs. Wilson Woodrow > Year: 1907 > Publisher: The McClure Company, New York > Chapter: 19 > Quote Page: 270 > > http://books.google.com/books?id=eWspAQAAIAAJ&q=catnip#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > "It's been six weeks an' more since Jack wrote her, commandin' her to > come back the minute she got the letter, an' she ain't paid no more > attention to it than if he was catnip," announced Mrs. Thomas. > [End excerpt] > > Garson Seems like Jack was just catnip for the cats and not the ladies (assuming the "her" in question is a lady and not a cat.) LH > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: catnip for the ladies >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Adumbrated here, re Rudolph Valentino (d. 1926): >> >> 1927 H. L. Mencken _Prejudices: Sixth Series_ (N.Y.: Knopf) 311 : Here was >> a young man who was leading daily the dream of millions of other young men. >> Here was one who was catnip to women. >> >> It may have appeared slightly earlier in Mencken & Nathan's _American >> Mercury_. >> >> JL >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: catnip for the ladies >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> A recent _Vanity Fair_ quoted Ava Gardner in the 1980s as describing Mickey >>> Rooney as "catnip for the ladies." (No, I am not making this up.) >>> >>> 659,000 Google strikes. >>> >>> Earlier: >>> >>> 1943 _Billboard_ (Jan. 9) 20: Frank Sinatra....Boyish appearance and >>> mannerisms all catnip for the ladies. >>> >>> 1949 Parke Cummings, in _Collier's Mag._ (Nov. 12) 59 : Everybody on the >>> street knew that the big tenor was said to be catnip for the ladies, so the >>> women writers would snicker and ask Willie if he couldn't sneak them into >>> Kirk's dressing room some dark night. >>> >>> 1952 _Elyria [O.] Chronicle Telegram_ (June 12) 36: >>> It is mighty nice to have put 50 years away and hear that you are just now >>> becoming catnip for the ladies, but the sad truth is that you never hear >>> this until you are 50 years old. >>> >>> 1962 _Blytheville [Ark.] Courier News_ (March 8) 6: The darkly handsome >>> [George] Maharas [sic]..."busted out" of New York's Hell's Kitchen to >>> become catnip for the ladies. >>> >>> Cf. later(?) "feline" attached to femininity. And of course the P-word >>> (perhaps a preconscious influence on all this?). >>> >>> JL >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >>> truth."1943 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 16:28:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:28:33 -0400 Subject: "Even his name means wanker." In-Reply-To: <201408141610.s7EFlM97005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I stand in awe at the depth of the analysis. Your academic future is secure. JL On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > The book is no longer in front of me (don't know why), but "beauteous > > niggard" may not be filthy enough to mention. > >=20 > > Indeed, it was Heraclitus (even his name reeks of porn) > > Yeah, and that was after he shortened it to get past the censors. > > LH > > > who said, "You > > can't read Wanker's fourth sonnet the same way once." > >=20 > > I stand corrected. > >=20 > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > >=20 > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Laurence Horn = > > > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "Even his name means wanker." > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>=20 > >>> You know who. Think about it. Oxford educator Pauline Kiernan spells = > =3D > >> it out > >>> again and again in her hilarious _Filthy Shakespeare_ (Quercus, = > 2005). > >>> =3D20 > >>> But wait... The dust jacket calls this Four-X-rated treatment of the = > =3D > >> bard > >>> "deeply insightful." So it isn't hilarious after all! It's true! =3D > >> (Maybe > >>> both? Naaaa. But postmodernwise you can't tell what's real and = > what's =3D > >> a > >>> riotous put-on. If you think you can, perhaps you're already =3D > >> obsolete.) > >>> =3D20 > >>> As for Kiernan, you be the judge. In any event, you'll never read =3D > >> Sonnet IV > >>> the same way again. > >>> =3D20 > >>> JL > >>=20 > >> Referring, I gather, to the references to spending. Point taken = > (unless =3D > >> we never read it the same way again in the first place). But then = > again =3D > >> it was already pretty challenging (especially in class) to deal with = > =3D > >> line 5, where the poet addresses his narcissist lover as "beauteous =3D= > > >> niggard". > >>=20 > >> LH > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> =3D20 > >>> --=3D20 > >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > =3D > >> truth." > >>> =3D20 > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 19:03:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' Message-ID: Several times in the past few days I've heard comments about the shooting in Missouri to the effect that "Police need to respect the black male body," and "Black bodies are important." My SWAG is that it ultimately goes back to Elaine Scarry's intellectually influential _The Body in Pain_ (1985). It doesn't just mean "person." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 14 20:09:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:09:37 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Several times in the past few days I've heard comments about the shooting > in Missouri to the effect that "Police need to respect the black male > body," and "Black bodies are important." > > My SWAG is that it ultimately goes back to Elaine Scarry's intellectually > influential _The Body in Pain_ (1985). > > It doesn't just mean "person." > > JL > Or, fortunately, 'corpse', as an illustration of what the OED considers a possible euphemistic truncation of "dead body" (sense 2, cites back to 1225). I've wondered whether "There are 5 bodies in the room" really has a distinct reading on which it entails that all of them are dead ones or just strongly suggests it. ("Wait--that body is moving" doesn't seem like a contradiction, so perhaps it's still just an invited pragmatic inference, from the non-use of "5 people in the room", that the bodies in question are indeed dead ones/corpses. Maybe "victims" works the same way in this context.) Of course this only applies to *being* a body and not to *having* one, as in Jon's examples above. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 22:17:03 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 18:17:03 -0400 Subject: jihottie In-Reply-To: <53ED3471.1000704@gmail.com> Message-ID: Addendum: UD has a 2007 entry for "jihotti" > A hot middle eastern woman This changes the timeline, somewhat, but not by much. VS-) On 8/14/2014 6:13 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > I noticed in recent news the acquittal of a British-Morrocan 27-year > old of charges of aiding terrorism. She made news a few months ago by > rolling up and hiding 20000 euro "in her skivvies", as the tabloids > reported it. The woman who gave her the cash was, on the other hand, > convicted. > > Queue the Daily Mail. > > http://goo.gl/B1jYsr >> A student accused of funding terrorism in Syria walked free from >> court yesterday after she was cleared of trying to smuggle cash out >> of the UK in her knickers. >> University student Nawal Msaad, 27, was caught with ?16,000 in euros >> stuffed in her underwear at Heathrow as she attempted to board a >> flight to Istanbul. >> ... >> Miss Msaad, whose model looks have earned her the nickname ?jihottie? >> on social media sites, wept as she was cleared. The London >> Metropolitan University human resources management undergraduate >> appeared during the trial to be a most unlikely jihadi sympathiser. > > It's that last bit that got my attention. DM makes it sound as if > "jihottie" is something new. But UD goes back to at least 2009 with > the entry. > >> A term used to describe a smokin' hot, sexy muslim girl > > This appears to follow a more interesting list. From HotAir 05.03.08 > (joke in the comments) >> STATE DEPARTMENT?S BANNED TERMS: >> >> AL-QA?IDA: Sheik for brains. >> ARABIC SUICIDE BOMBER: Camelkaze. >> OSAMA BIN LADEN: Turban legend. >> JIHAD: Heavenly fatah. >> JIHOTTIES: Young Al-Qa?ida women. >> >> Dr. Charles G. Waugh on May 3, 2008 at 1:47 PM > > But that's not all of it. From the RX Forum 12.23.05 (in header only): > > http://goo.gl/QXEGdu > Jihad Jihottie? Osama's Niece Wants Acceptance >> Osama bin Laden's niece, in an interview with GQ magazine in which >> she appears scantily clad, says she has nothing in common with the >> al-Qaida leader and simply wants acceptance by Americans. >> >> "Everyone relates me to that man, and I have nothing to do with him," >> Wafah Dufour, the daughter of bin Laden's half brother, Yeslam >> Binladin, says in the January edition of magazine, referring to the >> Al-Qaida leader. >> >> "I want to be accepted here, but I feel that everybody's judging me >> and rejecting me," said the California-born Dufour, a law graduate >> who lives in New York. "Come on, where's the American spirit? Accept >> me. I want to be embraced, because my values are like yours. And I'm >> here. I'm not hiding." >> >> Dufour, who adopted her mother's maiden name after the Sept. 11, 2001 >> attacks that have been blamed on bin Laden, appears in several >> provocative photos in the magazine. > > I'm not sure where the headline came from (not GQ, apparently). > > A bit over a year ago, the NY Post also used the headline, in > reference to Tsarnaev: > > http://goo.gl/RMe5NI > > And does not appear to have been an isolated reference to Tsarnaev either. > > VS-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 14 23:53:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 19:53:23 -0400 Subject: a "credible alternative" Message-ID: CNN reports a U.S. government official's claim (or recommendation) that ISIS is now "a credible alternative to al-Qaeda." So if al-Qaeda doesn't work for you anymore, or if it's gotten too pricey, you can switch. That's democracy for you. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 07:45:27 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:45:27 +0800 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408142009.s7EK344D005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: (1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) (2) <> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 15 13:41:58 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 09:41:58 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > (1) <>. As the remainder of the verse indicates-- O gin a body meet a body, Comin? thro? the rye; Gin a body f?k a body, Need a body cry? [Burns, R. [1800] 1964. Comin? thro? the rye. In: J. Burke and S. Goodsir Smith (eds.), _The merry muses of Caledonia_, p. 144. G. P. Putnam?s Sons, New York.] --Robbie Burns was definitely thinking of bodies here, and not just metonymically. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 14:18:27 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 10:18:27 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408151342.s7FCp6mR005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Even his name means VD. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > > > (1) <>. =20 > > As the remainder of the verse indicates-- > > O gin a body meet a body, > Comin=E2=80=99 thro=E2=80=99 the rye; > Gin a body f=E2=80=94k a body, > Need a body cry? > > [Burns, R. [1800] 1964. Comin=C2=92 thro=C2=92 the rye. In: J. Burke and = > S. Goodsir Smith (eds.), _The merry muses of Caledonia_, p. 144. > G. P. Putnam=C2=92s Sons, New York.] > > --Robbie Burns was definitely thinking of bodies here, and not just = > metonymically. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 15 19:06:10 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:06:10 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: >(1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson >cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) >(2) <> in anatomy. Not in metonymy. Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor "monotony" either. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 15 20:38:07 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:38:07 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <993000.78656.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> (1) <>. (Recall Gary Larson >> cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field ...) >> (2) <> > > in anatomy. > > Not in metonymy. > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor "monotony" either. > Or "monogamy"? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 20:53:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:53:19 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152038.s7FIt1k9005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No soap, mahogany. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/15/2014 03:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >=20 > >> (1) <>. (Recall Gary = > Larson > >> cartoon, two hospital attendants pushing gurneys through a rye field = > ...) > >> (2) <> > >=20 > > in anatomy. > >=20 > > Not in metonymy. > >=20 > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., = > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th = > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor = > "monotony" either. > >=20 > Or "monogamy"? > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 21:19:34 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:19:34 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408150745.s7F7VP2F005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:45 AM, W Brewer wrote: > warm bodies The usual term in the Army, fifty years ago, enlisted men being indistinguishable, one from another, for military purposes. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 21:33:23 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:33:23 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408151906.s7FIt19v005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor > "monotony" either. > Isn't that part of Cambridge now Arlington? There's a tee-nine-shee bit of the primordial wilderness there that's called "Menotomy." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 15 22:11:52 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 18:11:52 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152134.s7FIt10n005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, but while "warm bodies" can feel pain, that implication is entirely irrelevant to the usual context. In the current sense, it appears to be central. JL On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Off topic: In the 18th century, the portion of Cambridge, Mass., > > called "Menotomy" was occasionally printed "Anatomy". In the 19th > > century, it was once published as "Metonomy". Not "metonymy". Nor > > "monotony" either. > > > > Isn't that part of Cambridge now Arlington? There's a tee-nine-shee bit of > the primordial wilderness there that's called "Menotomy." > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 01:25:49 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 21:25:49 -0400 Subject: A Facebooker from St. Louis Message-ID: commenting upon open-carry at the ado in nearby Ferguson: "_Are_ is that just okay for white folks?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 16 03:26:34 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 23:26:34 -0400 Subject: A Facebooker from St. Louis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/15/2014 09:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >commenting upon open-carry at the ado in nearby Ferguson: > >"_Are_ is that just okay for white folks?" Is it still Talk Like a Pirate Day? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 11:38:27 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:38:27 +0800 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408152211.s7FLY45n005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And Shakespeare is Michael J Fox on Viagra. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 13:14:40 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 09:14:40 -0400 Subject: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical pain' In-Reply-To: <201408161138.s7GA1QfT005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by someone else of the same name.) Other than "wanker" (which may be primal in a Freudian, Lacanian, and Marxist, and pornocritical context), the name "Shakespeare" signifies 1. warrior 2. flasher 3. orchard thief (cf. the incident in the youth of Augustine of Hippo, whose name means "teenager born in August of a hippopotamus") 4. peer of guy named "Shay," eME {Shae}, {Shea} cf. recent English "Shea Stadium," also popular. (The intrusive voiceless velar stop is consistent with a tmetic clearing of the throat to mask preconscious embarrassment at comparing oneself to Shay All of these significations, as well as others, remain constantly in play, compelling us to defer final judgment forever and watch cartoons. JL (whose name means "Bringer of Light to the Head in the Naval Sense, Which Subconsciously Also Implies Cranium") On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:38 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: body = 'a human being as capable of feeling physical > pain' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And Shakespeare is Michael J Fox on Viagra. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 13:38:00 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) Message-ID: A version of the quotation in the subject line was discussed by three journalists on twitter, and they brought me into the loop. Key references such as the Yale Book of Quotations, The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, The Oxford Dictionary of Humorous Quotations, and Cassell's Humorous Quotations list two different versions of the saying attributed to William Ralph Inge in 1927, 1929, and later. Progress on tracing the adage is presented here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/15/original/ Below is the citation for the earliest close match I've located in 1896. However, there are earlier variants using the phrase "undetected imitation" instead of "undetected plagiarism" as presented at the QI website. [ref] 1896 April, The Nineteenth Century, Volume 39, The Decay of Classical Quotation by Herbert Paul, Start Page 636, Quote Page 645, Published by Sampson, Low, Marston and Company, London. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=rtsaAAAAYAAJ&q=plagiarism#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. [End excerpt] Additional interesting citations would be welcome. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 12:48:22 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:48:22 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408014430027.81751@duke.edu> Message-ID: More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Err Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 13:47:26 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:47:26 +0000 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Wee Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Aug 16 15:14:34 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:14:34 +0000 Subject: *correction* RE: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408196846127.56192@duke.edu> Message-ID: The spelling below should be: "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the *friz*...up the wits" So deeply ingrained is the "fritz" spelling. (Sorry for the two messages; the computer here different than usual...on the friz.?) Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz More on "on the friz." Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. (1) A Sovereign Remedy Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... --Washington Herald (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Wee Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: "There was once a small boy of Quebec, Who was buried in snow to the neck. When asked: "Are you friz?" He replied: "Yes, I is. But we don't call this cold in Quebec." --Albany Journal (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" 1886 "a friz nose" 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] 1897 "friz up all de creeks" 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] 1905 "business goes on the fritz." 1905 "good manners done friz up" 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" 1909 "show is on de fritz" 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 16 15:51:41 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 11:51:41 -0400 Subject: on the fritz--on the friz In-Reply-To: <1408193302022.19348@duke.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > More on "on the friz." > Of course "friz" is pronounced in different ways, as attested in the following two different rhymes. > > (1) A Sovereign Remedy > Deep breathing is the thing to try if you are feeling slack; > It brightens the lack-luster eye and straightens the back;.... > Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the fritz; > It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;.... > --Washington Herald > (Feb. 5 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p.6 col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) > > (2) Rudyard Kipling still adheres to his opinion of Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows." He has sent the following skit to Lady Marjorie Gordon, the editor of "Err Willie Winkie," a juvenile magazine: Interesting use of "skit" with which I wasn't familiar (referring to Kipling's limerick below). This sense apparently evolves somehow from from the earlier 1. a. A female of a vain, frivolous, or wanton disposition. Sense 2a is 'A quizzing or satirical reflection upon, or hit at, a person or thing; a remark of this nature', as in 1820?2 W. H. Pyne Wine & Walnuts (1824) II. xi. 174 No more of your skits at my right noble country. This antedated but overlapped with the cites for the now current sense, 2b:* 'A literary or artistic production intended as a piece of light satire, parody, or caricature' This is all under SKIT n., 2, not to be confused with SKIT n., 1: 'diarrhoea in animals, esp. sheep'. I had always wondered what the word is for that. LH *Actually, that definition seems a bit narrow for current skits, e.g. segments in a variety show, falling under the AHD definition: 'A short, usually comic dramatic performance or work; a theatrical sketch'. But the entry hasn't been updated. > "There was once a small boy of Quebec, > Who was buried in snow to the neck. > When asked: "Are you friz?" > He replied: "Yes, I is. > But we don't call this cold in Quebec." > --Albany Journal > (July 23, 1897, Salt Lake [UT] Semi-Weekly Tribune, p. 4 col. F, 19th Century US Newspapers) > > I suggest that the personal name Fritz is not the origin of "on the friz/fritz." > > Stephen > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society ...on behalf of Stephen Goranson ... > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:07 AM... > Subject: [ADS-L] on the fritz--on the friz > > Previous suggested explanations of "on the fritz," including one by me, are unpersuasive. > > Here is a new suggestion--at least I have not encountered it; please correct me if it has been offered before. If there's interest, I may write a longer version with more quotations or references. > > "On the fritz" (and "on de fritz") has also been written "on the friz." Consider friz as related to freeze and frozen. The association obtains, whether analyzed as irregular irregular verb forms and/or via J. O. Hallowell's listing "Friz--frozen" as attested in various dialects (1887 v.1 p.382 "All friz out, can't get no groundsel"). > > Fritz, friz, frozen up, stopped, and the like. > > > Possibly related uses [some may be of debatable relevance], in addition to those in OED June 2014 and HDAS: > > > 1880 "married or 'fritz to' the dark eyed senoritas" > > 1886 "a friz nose" > > 1891 "Fort'nate they [hands] friz to the oars" > > [1892 "Jimmy the Bunco" schemes to get a Thanksgiving dinner; the lemonade comes with "friz." "'I dunno as I cares on the friz,' murmured 'the Bunco' thoughtfully. The word bore too close a resemblance to his general state of being."] > > 1897 "friz up all de creeks" > > 1901 "getting t' be on de Fritz" > > 1901 "For everything 't was frizable, that year was friz." > > 1902 (source?) "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz/ if we never had snow?" [Ironic effect of lack of ice?] > > 1904 Life in Sing Sing. "Fritzer. Not good." > > 1905 "He's on the friz." [Baseball player slump.] > > 1905 "business goes on the fritz." > > 1905 "good manners done friz up" > > 1905 four wagons "all to de fritz" > > 1906 "is he straight, or is he on de fritz?" > > 1908 "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz." > > 1908 poem, "friz" rhyming with "wits." > > 1908 Munsey's "our fat leading lady was on the friz" > > 1909 "show is on de fritz" > > 1912 "A poor man is friz out these days. Friz out, I say." > > 1912 "All the religion 'll be friz out of this c'mmunity." > > 1912 "I may talk on de fritz" [but won spelling bees] > > > Stephen Goranson > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 16 16:00:29 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:00:29 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/16/2014 09:38 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: >And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. From more than one source, of course. "Stealing ideas from one person is plagiarism; stealing ideas from many is originality."* * Better known as research. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 16:11:09 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:11:09 -0400 Subject: Quote: What is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. (Herbert Paul, 1896) In-Reply-To: <201408161600.s7GFQ23h005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole wrote: >>And, after all, what is originality? It is merely undetected plagiarism. Joel S. Berson" wrote: > From more than one source, of course. "Stealing ideas from one > person is plagiarism; stealing ideas from many is originality."* > * Better known as research. Thanks for your response, Joel. There is a relevant entry on the QI website. If You Steal From One Author, It?s Plagiarism; If You Steal From Many, It?s Research http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/09/20/plagiarism/ The earliest strong match was in 1932 in a journal called "Special Libraries": [Begin excerpt] I am reminded of the man who was asked what plagiarism was. He said: "It is plagiarism when you take something out of a book and use it as your own. If you take it out of several books then it is research." [End excerpt] Another thematically related entry: Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 16:14:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:14:18 -0400 Subject: More from CNN Message-ID: Anchor: "...warned Ferguson Police against to release the videotape..." Guest: "Black people in this country are constantly othered." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 19:18:47 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:18:47 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" Message-ID: OED: Feb., 1945. 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 19:27:22 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 15:27:22 -0400 Subject: Headline Message-ID: "Ex-cop who burned body again gets 17 years" No doubt, had he been satisfied with burning the body only once, he'd have gotten a lighter sentence. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Sat Aug 16 20:13:45 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:13:45 -0300 Subject: Headline In-Reply-To: <201408161928.s7GFQ2aP005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ya, whole deal is bizarre. But it should have read "Ex-cop who burned body gets 17 years again" as some appeals judge said re-do this and, after the re-doing, the guy ended up getting the same sentence again. DAD Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Headline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- "Ex-cop who burned body again gets 17 years" No doubt, had he been satisfied with burning the body only once, he'd have gotten a lighter sentence. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 21:17:54 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:17:54 -0400 Subject: sammie Message-ID: Yahoo! today: "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer sammie." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From byagoda at UDEL.EDU Sat Aug 16 21:36:05 2014 From: byagoda at UDEL.EDU (Yagoda, Ben) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:36:05 +0000 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408162117.s7GFQ2lb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Favored, and possibly popularized, by Rachael Ray. On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 16 21:38:39 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 14:38:39 -0700 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408162117.s7GFQ2lh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wiktionary has a citation in 2006 and two in 2009 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:sammie). BB On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 16 23:32:14 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:32:14 -0400 Subject: profanity = 'obscene word or phrase' Message-ID: OED 1969 (insufficiently differentiated, I think), and mentioned here before. A unmistakable antedating: 1964 Arthur S. Link in _N.Y. Times Book Review_ (March 8) 6: Wilson, Smith writes, "burst into a stream of profanities and obscenities." Wilson occasionally used "damn" and "hell" in conversation, but never, insofar as this reviewer knows, profanities and obscenities, "D--n" and "h--l," of course, were top nineteenth-century profanities, so Prof. Link (editor of Woodrow Wilson's papers) must have believed that "profanity" and "obscenity" were essentially synonymous. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Aug 16 23:52:27 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 19:52:27 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <1C65F23F-110B-4472-B33B-978B8C6ADDF1@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: "Sammie" goes back to the early 1980s at the very least. I had a friend in my undergraduate years who used it continually. Here's one from 2 April 1999 in the Usenet group nz.reg.wellington.general: "My favourite sandwich is one published in the Listener from a sammy bar in Cuba" And a later one from 22 Feb 2001 in rec.music.gdead: "You can actually hear the crisp crunch of the lettuce (hand-leafed iceburg I think) as Phil enjoys his sammy." I could've probably found more if Google hadn't deliberately killed their Usenet search capabilities. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 5:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: sammie Wiktionary has a citation in 2006 and two in 2009 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:sammie). BB On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Yahoo! today: > > "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer > sammie." > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 01:55:17 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 21:55:17 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <4D9666EE-D49E-4458-8363-138877893A75@win.udel.edu> Message-ID: I guess, but for me, as someone who spent 11 years as a companion person to my late, lamented Samoyed, a "killer sammie" is an oxymoronic descriptor of a dog that looks like this https://www.facebook.com/SamoyedRescueofTexas and is nevertheless a killer. Technically I suppose that would count as a killer Sammie, though, not a killer sammie. LH On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:36 PM, Yagoda, Ben wrote: > Favored, and possibly popularized, by Rachael Ray. > > On Aug 16, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: sammie >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Yahoo! today: >> >> "Mayo, mustard, and pesto are all great building blocks for a killer >> sammie." >> >> JL >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 03:56:39 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 23:56:39 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408161614.s7GFQ26N005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Aug 17 05:44:31 2014 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 01:44:31 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170155.s7H0k061005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was discussed here in 2005. "Sammy" = "sandwich" is apparently more usual in New Zealand, along with "footie" = "football", "rellies" = "relatives", etc., etc., IIRC. I don't recall ever hearing it in conversation myself, but I might not notice (I would probably take it to be jocular and/or baby-talk in most contexts). I have seen it very seldom written. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 07:05:21 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:05:21 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170545.s7H0k0bn005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:37:49 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 08:37:49 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408170705.s7H0k0e7005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, well, a fellow grad student in the '80s always talked about "sammitches," his intonation suggesting that the pronunciation was thoroughly affected rather than a natural, perhaps toddlerish, version of the cluster-rich "sandwiches." That was in Tennessee. I'd never heard it in NYC, but maybe I didn't get out enough. In any event, no "sammie" for me till now. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:57:56 2014 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:57:56 +0000 Subject: sammie - babytalk In-Reply-To: <201408170705.s7H0k0dt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My son would say "samrich" and we did so as well. Just for fun. Language is puckish. I wonder how much baby talk affects language. My guess is that "awe-dropping" in USA is a effect of babytalk in that "awe" is a bit difficult to pronounce, so "ah" is substituted, and the trend continues. Note that "r" is a bit difficult to pronounce and there is a lot of "r-dropping" around. I'm just sayin'. I wonder if Bubba knows? Tom Zurinskas, Conn 20 yrs, Tenn 3, NJ 33, now FL 12.See how English spelling links to sounds at http://justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 13:01:07 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 09:01:07 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408170357.s7H0k0DZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass more specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" or "victimized by authority" or worse. Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any ethnic designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of "otherness" from, you know, the "other." 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most likely have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience of being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." JL On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 12:51:37 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 08:51:37 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171237.s7HBiR4f005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From Know Your Meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/make-me-a-sandwich [Begin excerpt] "Make me a sandwich," sometimes deliberately misspelled as "Make me a sammich," is a catchphrase often used by male internet users to mock, discredit or annoy female internet users, playing off of the sexist trope[1] which states that women belong in the kitchen. [End excerpt] On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: sammie > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yeah, well, a fellow grad student in the '80s always talked about > "sammitches," his intonation suggesting that the pronunciation was > thoroughly affected rather than a natural, perhaps toddlerish, version of > the cluster-rich "sandwiches." > > That was in Tennessee. I'd never heard it in NYC, but maybe I didn't get > out enough. > > In any event, no "sammie" for me till now. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: W Brewer >> Subject: Re: sammie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> [SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] >> I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 13:43:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 09:43:17 -0400 Subject: "The Land that God Forgot" Message-ID: 58,000 RGs. YBQ has "The land that Time forgot" from E. R. Burroughs in 1924. 1903 _Bellingham [Wash.] Herald_ (Dec. 19) II 10: The Reveille, for campaign purposes has rescued J. P. De Mattos from "the land that God forgot," whither he had drifted since the failure of his re-election in Whatcom. 1910 C. J. Blanchard in _National Geographic Magazine_ (April) 277: "The Land that God Forgot" ... [The Arizona desert] is the land some one called "The Land that God Forgot." I heard it in the '60s. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 14:44:33 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:44:33 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by > someone else of the same name.) JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars: 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name. 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name. I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others. Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point. The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database. [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=XiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name, reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name! [End excerpt] [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4, Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=DR6NP-RgCfUC&q=%22not+written+by%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of the same name? [End excerpt] Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous remarks based on Homer. [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1, (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30, 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J. Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=VKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems, and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name." [End excerpt] Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted the comical remarks. [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View) http://books.google.com/books?id=alQAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+name%22+#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey, in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 14:48:08 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:48:08 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 03:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: >[SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] >I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. Seems to me rather than [SAM-mitch] I heard [SAM-witch]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 17 14:43:13 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 14:43:13 +0000 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 Message-ID: In the following article, apparently, Billy Brady is the promoter and manager (1863-1950?) who "cannot be blamed for making hay while the sun shines"--making money before the New York boxing law may change. And "haymaker," in this instance, may refer to a boxer under his management, rather than to a specific punch. "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in one fight in New York than there is in half dozen at Carson or some other outlandish place where finish fights are possible. Besides, he's got the best haymaker in the puglistic meadow." Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquirer p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 14:59:36 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:59:36 -0400 Subject: "The Land that God Forgot" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 09:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >1903 _Bellingham [Wash.] Herald_ (Dec. 19) II 10: The Reveille, for >campaign purposes has rescued J. P. De Mattos from "the land that God >forgot," whither he had drifted since the failure of his re-election in >Whatcom. Jon, you've discovered the ur-URL. Or perhaps the prototype-URL, with "what" to be replaced by a real site.* Joel *I've learned today that Whatcom County *is* a real place, in the State of Washington (and its county seat is Bellingham). So it's not a proto- but an ur-. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 17 15:26:23 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:26:23 +0000 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860: "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Shakespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespeare, but by another person of the same name!" The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB http://books.google.com/books?id=Qi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA38&dq=%22but+by+another+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=scfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved=0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=onepage&q=%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20same%20name%22&f=false Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________ Garson: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by > someone else of the same name.) JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars: 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name. 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name. I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others. Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point. The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database. [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=XiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name, reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name! [End excerpt] [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4, Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=DR6NP-RgCfUC&q=%22not+written+by%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of the same name? [End excerpt] Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous remarks based on Homer. [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1, (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30, 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J. Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://books.google.com/books?id=VKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=%22not+written%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems, and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person of the same name." [End excerpt] Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted the comical remarks. [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View) http://books.google.com/books?id=alQAAAAAYAAJ&q=%22same+name%22+#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey, in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:27:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:27:15 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171448.s7HBiRH5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The form I used as a child - and still use in moments of hunger. But not "sammitch." JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2014 03:05 AM, W Brewer wrote: > > >[SAND-which] > [SAM-mitch] ~ [SAM-mee] > >I recall hearing [SAM-mitch] a lot. > > Seems to me rather than [SAM-mitch] I heard [SAM-witch]. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:30:01 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:30:01 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. I'd always heard it attributed to Mark Twain (not his real name). Your notice also advances the cause of Punnoporno Critique, JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > > someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:31:54 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 23:31:54 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171448.s7HBiRHB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. [SA(nasalization)-which] > [SA(nasalizationTCH]. Holdamayo. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:34:04 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:34:04 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171530.s7HBiRKF005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Or Pornopunno, as some call it. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Garson. I'd always heard it attributed to Mark Twain (not his real > name). > > Your notice also advances the cause of Punnoporno Critique, > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > > Sh= > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > > Shakespea= > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > > > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > > > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > ________________=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Garson:=0A= > > =0A= > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > > > "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > > > his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > > > someone else of the same name.)=0A= > > =0A= > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > > =0A= > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > > of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > > another man of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > > =0A= > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > > =0A= > > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > > nippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > > name!=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the > plays=0A= > > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > > the same name?=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > > [/ref]=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > > nippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate > among=0A= > > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the > subject=0A= > > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > > another person of the same name."=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > > the comical remarks.=0A= > > =0A= > > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > > =0A= > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > > ippet&=0A= > > =0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the > Odyssey,=0A= > > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer > III.=0A= > > [End excerpt]=0A= > > =0A= > > Garson=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:36:15 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:36:15 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171531.s7HBiRKb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the future, Louis Armstrong will be assumed to have been sandwich connoisseur. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:31 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: sammie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: > [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. > [SA(nasalization)-which] > > [SA(nasalizationTCH]. > Holdamayo. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 15:56:06 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 23:56:06 +0800 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: <201408171536.s7HBiRLb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not to mention Sammie Davis, junior. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Sun Aug 17 15:57:46 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:57:46 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171443.s7HBiRGB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in one fight in New York than th= > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other outlandish place where finish = > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the best haymaker in the puglistic m= > eadow." > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) I would have thought much older for haymaker=punch, if not necessarily boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed the ?Haymakers? before 1867, possibly in 1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, but a number of recent texts about them present the nickname as big city slur on them being from the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its brush industry, not for being a farm community). Some do attribute it to their punches. Neither seem to present sources to back their claims (at least on a cursory review of them just now). Over time it may have meant both things with respect to the team, and it looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: ?When the news of the first innings was received, showing a tally of 6 for the ?Mowers? to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the ?reconstructed? nine meant business, and the chances of their success looked decidedly encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing their lead, hope became certainty, and there were plenty of ?Haymakers? to be found, the batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.? ?The National Game; ?Blood will Tell??The Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals?The ?Blue Above the Green.?? Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 16:22:53 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:22:53 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Excellent citation! Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for your response, JL. There is a connection to Mark Twain. He repeated a version of the Homer quip and ascribed it to a school child. Details will be given on the QI website within a few days; lord willing, and if the creek don't rise. Garson On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= > ------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org=0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 16:23:52 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:23:52 -0400 Subject: sammie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or Satchel Paige?"Don't look back, something may be gaining on you, wearing a sandwich board". LH On Aug 17, 2014, at 11:36 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In the future, Louis Armstrong will be assumed to have been sandwich > connoisseur. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:31 AM, W Brewer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: W Brewer >> Subject: Re: sammie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Now thinking about it, I detect a phonetic gradation of es: >> [SAND-which] > [SAN-which] > [SAM-witch] > [SAM-mitch]. >> [SA(nasalization)-which] > >> [SA(nasalizationTCH]. >> Holdamayo. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 17 16:48:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:48:44 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <82C3B48C-6A31-4A6C-9066-4B8D5073CF70@mac.com> Message-ID: I am led to wonder whether there is any connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) Joel At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in > one fight in New York than th= > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other > outlandish place where finish = > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the > best haymaker in the puglistic m= > > eadow." > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > >I would have thought much older for >haymaker=punch, if not necessarily >boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed >the ?Haymakers? before 1867, possibly in >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, >but a number of recent texts about them present >the nickname as big city slur on them being from >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its >brush industry, not for being a farm >community). Some do attribute it to their >punches. Neither seem to present sources to >back their claims (at least on a cursory review >of them just now). Over time it may have meant >both things with respect to the team, and it >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > >?When the news of the first innings was >received, showing a tally of 6 for the ?Mowers? >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the >?reconstructed? nine meant business, and the >chances of their success looked decidedly >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing >their lead, hope became certainty, and there >were plenty of ?Haymakers? to be found, the >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.? >?The National Game; ?Blood will Tell??The >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals?The ?Blue Above >the Green.?? Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > >Chris Philippo >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sclements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Aug 17 18:55:25 2014 From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (sclements at NEO.RR.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 18:55:25 +0000 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <873144.95035.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=punch, the "punch" use can be found using Genealogy Bank in 1900. 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight for the kid. Sam Clements ---- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > I am led to wonder whether there is any > connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in > one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in > baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one > other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) > > Joel > > At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in > > one fight in New York than th= > > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other > > outlandish place where finish = > > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the > > best haymaker in the puglistic m= > > > eadow." > > > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's > > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire= > > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > > > >I would have thought much older for > >haymaker=punch, if not necessarily > >boxer=haymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a > >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed > >the ?Haymakers? before 1867, possibly in > >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers, > >but a number of recent texts about them present > >the nickname as big city slur on them being from > >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its > >brush industry, not for being a farm > >community). Some do attribute it to their > >punches. Neither seem to present sources to > >back their claims (at least on a cursory review > >of them just now). Over time it may have meant > >both things with respect to the team, and it > >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > > > >?When the news of the first innings was > >received, showing a tally of 6 for the ?Mowers? > >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd > >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the > >?reconstructed? nine meant business, and the > >chances of their success looked decidedly > >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in, > >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing > >their lead, hope became certainty, and there > >were plenty of ?Haymakers? to be found, the > >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and > >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.? > >?The National Game; ?Blood will Tell??The > >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals?The ?Blue Above > >the Green.?? Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > > > >Chris Philippo > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 19:49:35 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:49:35 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171855.s7HBiRix005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term for a farmer or rustic. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > Subject: Re: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=3Dpunch, the "punch" use can be > fou= > nd using Genealogy Bank in 1900. > > 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 > > Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight > f= > or the kid. > > Sam Clements > > ---- "Joel S. Berson" wrote:=20 > > I am led to wonder whether there is any=20 > > connection between "haymaker" and "rainmaker", in=20 > > one or more of three arenas -- batted ball in=20 > > baseball, and bringer-in of income. At least one=20 > > other connection -- rain makes hay. :-) > >=20 > > Joel > >=20 > > At 8/17/2014 11:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote= > : > > > > "He [Brady] knows that there is more money in=20 > > > one fight in New York than th=3D > > > > ere is in half dozen at Carson or some other=20 > > > outlandish place where finish =3D > > > > fights are possible. Besides, he's got the=20 > > > best haymaker in the puglistic m=3D > > > > eadow." > > > > > > > > Nov. 13, 1899 (Mon.), "The Old Sport's=20 > > > Musings" in The Philadelphia Inquire=3D > > > > r p. 6 col. 1 (America's Historic Newspapers) > > > > > >I would have thought much older for=20 > > >haymaker=3Dpunch, if not necessarily=20 > > >boxer=3Dhaymaker. The Unions of Lansingburgh, a=20 > > >baseball team created in 1860, were nicknamed=20 > > >the =C2=93Haymakers=C2=94 before 1867, possibly in=20 > > >1866. They had a reputation for being brawlers,=20 > > >but a number of recent texts about them present=20 > > >the nickname as big city slur on them being from=20 > > >the Town of Lansingburgh (known actually for its=20 > > >brush industry, not for being a farm=20 > > >community). Some do attribute it to their=20 > > >punches. Neither seem to present sources to=20 > > >back their claims (at least on a cursory review=20 > > >of them just now). Over time it may have meant=20 > > >both things with respect to the team, and it=20 > > >looks like it might also have come to mean a hit in baseball: > > > > > >=C2=93When the news of the first innings was=20 > > >received, showing a tally of 6 for the =C2=91Mowers=C2=92=20 > > >to 0 for the Mutuals, the faces of the crowd=20 > > >perceptibly brightened, and it was felt that the=20 > > >=C2=91reconstructed=C2=92 nine meant business, and the=20 > > >chances of their success looked decidedly=20 > > >encouraging, and as inning after inning came in,=20 > > >and the boys were seen to be steadily increasing=20 > > >their lead, hope became certainty, and there=20 > > >were plenty of =C2=91Haymakers=C2=92 to be found, the=20 > > >batting of the Haymakers was very heavy, two and=20 > > >three base hits being frequently made, and York secured a home run.=C2= > =94 > > >=C2=93The National Game; =C2=91Blood will Tell=C2=92=C2=97The=20 > > >Haymakers Mow Down the Mutuals=C2=97The =C2=91Blue Above=20 > > >the Green.=C2=92=C2=94 Troy Daily Whig. May 26, 1871: 3 col 3. > > > > > >Chris Philippo > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 17 19:55:47 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his identity goes back to 1795 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this meme used for first? Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the following=0A= > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, Number=0A= > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote Page=0A= > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google Books=0A= > Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was not=0A= > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=0A= > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship of=0A= > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a careful=0A= > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion that=0A= > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same=0A= > name!=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among the=0A= > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column 4,=0A= > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D%22not+written+by%22#v= > =3Dsnippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the plays=0A= > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man of=0A= > the same name?=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of humorous=0A= > remarks based on Homer.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume 1,=0A= > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No date=0A= > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May 30,=0A= > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=0A= > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) link=0A= > [/ref]=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D%22not+written%22#v=3Ds= > nippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate among=0A= > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric Poems,=0A= > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the subject=0A= > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=0A= > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by=0A= > another person of the same name."=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple Homers=0A= > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that prompted=0A= > the comical remarks.=0A= > =0A= > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, Article=0A= > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), Start=0A= > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published by=0A= > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=0A= > =0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22same+name%22+#v=3Dsn= > ippet&=0A= > =0A= > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=0A= > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=0A= > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the same=0A= > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived a=0A= > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=0A= > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two single=0A= > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and many=0A= > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the Odyssey,=0A= > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., nor=0A= > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer III.=0A= > [End excerpt]=0A= > =0A= > Garson=0A= > =0A= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 20:12:20 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:12:20 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171955.s7HBiRqV005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by different people. Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = > Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = > line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = > identity goes back to 1795 = > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = > meme used for first?=20 > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = > about Sh=3D > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = > Shakespea=3D > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= > t+by+an=3D > > = > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= > DA&ved=3D > > = > =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= > e%20sam=3D > > e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > ________________=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Garson:=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D > >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D > >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= > > >> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = > person=3D0A=3D > > of the same name.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but > by=3D0A=3D= > > > another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = > has=3D0A=3D > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = > Israel=3D0A=3D > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = > following=3D0A=3D > > two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = > Number=3D0A=3D > > 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = > Page=3D0A=3D > > 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = > Books=3D0A=3D > > Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > v=3D3Ds=3D > > nippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was > not=3D0A=3D= > > > written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= > > > reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = > of=3D0A=3D > > the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = > careful=3D0A=3D > > review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = > that=3D0A=3D > > they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the > same=3D0A=3D= > > > name!=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = > the=3D0A=3D > > Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = > 4,=3D0A=3D > > Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link > [/ref]=3D0A=3D= > > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= > 22#v=3D > > =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = > plays=3D0A=3D > > of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = > of=3D0A=3D > > the same name?=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = > humorous=3D0A=3D > > remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume > 1,=3D0A=3D= > > > (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = > date=3D0A=3D > > was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = > 30,=3D0A=3D > > 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D > > Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = > link=3D0A=3D > > [/ref]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > v=3D3Ds=3D > > nippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = > among=3D0A=3D > > the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = > Poems,=3D0A=3D > > and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = > subject=3D0A=3D > > now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= > > > arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but > by=3D0A=3D= > > > another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = > Homers=3D0A=3D > > without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = > prompted=3D0A=3D > > the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = > Article=3D0A=3D > > 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), > Start=3D0A=3D= > > > Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published > by=3D0A=3D= > > > Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= > =3D3Dsn=3D > > ippet&=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D > > scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D > > Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = > same=3D0A=3D > > man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived > a=3D0A=3D= > > > long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= > > > almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = > single=3D0A=3D > > gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and > many=3D0A=3D= > > > others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = > Odyssey,=3D0A=3D > > in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = > nor=3D0A=3D > > Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = > III.=3D0A=3D > > [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Garson=3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 17 20:21:14 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:21:14 -0700 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408172012.s7HBiRtt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled quotation was first used for. BB On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Sun Aug 17 20:49:59 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:49:59 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: <201408171949.s7HBiRpp005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 3:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term > for a farmer or rustic. I realize that, I just wasn?t sure if the nickname for the team was a slur on the players supposedly being hayseeds (as has been claimed) or due to their reputation for brawling (as has also been claimed), or some other reason like the need for mowing the green on which they played. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Sun Aug 17 21:04:00 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:04:00 +0000 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While I don't know how the quotation actually came into being, it makes far more sense for Homer, which essentially just denotes the person who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey (if, indeed, one person composed both). (Of course, both epics arose out of an oral tradition, but it seems a fair assumption, if no more than that, that in each case a single person played a key role in assembling the text into something resembling what we know today.) We know a relatively large amount about every other named famous poet, including Shakespeare. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled quotation was first used for. BB On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 17 23:02:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:02:17 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption Message-ID: "Funny _Baby Horse_" Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:23:13 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:23:13 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > different people. > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > JL Must be treu: even Homer nods. (Somewhat) seriously, though, on Kripke's influential causal-historical theory of how proper names mean, it is in fact non-trivially the case that we could discover that, say, the plays attributed to Shakespeare were not written by him but by someone else with the same name. I can go into the details in the unlikely event that anyone asks for them. LH > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = >> identity goes back to 1795 = >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = >> meme used for first?=20 >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Formerly of Seattle, WA >> >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home >> >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >> >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = >> about Sh=3D >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = >> Shakespea=3D >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= >> t+by+an=3D >>> = >> other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= >> DA&ved=3D >>> = >> =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= >> e%20sam=3D >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> ________________=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= >> >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = >> person=3D0A=3D >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = >> has=3D0A=3D >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = >> Israel=3D0A=3D >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = >> following=3D0A=3D >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = >> Number=3D0A=3D >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = >> Page=3D0A=3D >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = >> Books=3D0A=3D >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was >> not=3D0A=3D= >> >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = >> careful=3D0A=3D >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = >> that=3D0A=3D >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the >> same=3D0A=3D= >> >>> name!=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = >> the=3D0A=3D >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = >> 4,=3D0A=3D >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= >> >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= >> 22#v=3D >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = >> plays=3D0A=3D >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = >> of=3D0A=3D >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = >> humorous=3D0A=3D >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume >> 1,=3D0A=3D= >> >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = >> date=3D0A=3D >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = >> 30,=3D0A=3D >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = >> link=3D0A=3D >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= >> v=3D3Ds=3D >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = >> among=3D0A=3D >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = >> Poems,=3D0A=3D >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = >> subject=3D0A=3D >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= >> >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = >> Homers=3D0A=3D >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = >> prompted=3D0A=3D >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = >> Article=3D0A=3D >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), >> Start=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published >> by=3D0A=3D= >> >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= >> =3D3Dsn=3D >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = >> same=3D0A=3D >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived >> a=3D0A=3D= >> >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= >> >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = >> single=3D0A=3D >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and >> many=3D0A=3D= >> >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = >> nor=3D0A=3D >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = >> III.=3D0A=3D >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >>> Garson=3D0A=3D >>> =3D0A=3D >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:28:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 19:28:37 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. "foal", I'd wager). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 00:25:49 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:25:49 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. Thanks, Beth Young ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work in groups. This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real-world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the greatest language resources in the English language. You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original-scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html ***Choose which word(s) to look for: You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you probably should NOT search for * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out where else to look.) Instead, try looking for * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: http://public.oed.com/appeals/ To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for "antedating"): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l ***Decide where/how to search: Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation should be the end of your search window. The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the database you're searching. Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that there is--this is just an example.) Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in texts you're reading for another purpose. Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. Additional information on search strategies: http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search-for-an-origin (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer words) http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of-google.html (google tips and tricks) Some online databases to search in: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good-sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 a list of sites for researching etymology; https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant list of publicly accessible full-text databases Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure out which avenues are probably not worth exploring UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of some old local Florida papers). Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full content the library provides either through subscription or Open Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search them!) Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers 1600-1950) If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to access full-text online archives of past issues. ***Know what evidence you need: The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it doesn't count. * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in 1898 doesn't count. * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam Browne," that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression in use. What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a particular date. In particular, you need all the information required by the OED submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is being used: http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ Also see the FAQs about contributions here: http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute ***Take good notes! Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high-quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who tried > to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't appeal to > every student, but I figured that there might be one or two who would enjoy > the challenge. I thought that the activity would help students better > understand what's involved in this sort of research, and I wanted to give > them an opportunity to do research with potential real-world application. > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better students > chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they tended to > provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary ("Merriam-Webster > says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from the OED itself ("OED says > it means X but I think it really means Y") or a 21st century magazine > article that makes claims about how a word originated centuries earlier. > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to antedate > but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the easiest words would > be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a year ago. > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my classes > are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this activity > (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic information, such as > what counts as evidence and how one might go about antedating a word. > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have you > tried this sort of activity with students? > > thanks, > > Beth Young > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 00:47:43 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:47:43 -0400 Subject: QOTD Message-ID: Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 00:56:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:56:12 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As long as we're sure he didn't mean "Free Willy". LH On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:39:47 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:39:47 -0400 Subject: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 03:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As for the baseball team, HDAS shows "haymaker" as a mid-19th century term >for a farmer or rustic. And the other team was called the "Mowers". Joel >JL > > >On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: sclements at NEO.RR.COM > > Subject: Re: haymaker (boxing) antedated (?) to 1899 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Even if Stephen's find isn't a haymaker=3Dpunch, the "punch" use can be > > fou= > > nd using Genealogy Bank in 1900. > > > > 11 September 1900-- _The Denver Evening Post_ 7/1 > > > > Only an accidental "haymaker" from McCoy's right could have won the fight > > f= > > or the kid. > > > > Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:44:01 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:44:01 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. Joel >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 01:49:40 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 21:49:40 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard P. Martin writes a bit about the transition from oral to written of "Homer"s works. "Introduction," in Homer, The Odyssey (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004), xxviii, xxix, xxx. I don't remember what his sources are. Joel At 8/17/2014 05:04 PM, Baker, John wrote: >While I don't know how the quotation actually came into being, it >makes far more sense for Homer, which essentially just denotes the >person who composed the Iliad and the Odyssey (if, indeed, one >person composed both). (Of course, both epics arose out of an oral >tradition, but it seems a fair assumption, if no more than that, >that in each case a single person played a key role in assembling >the text into something resembling what we know today.) We know a >relatively large amount about every other named famous poet, >including Shakespeare. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >Behalf Of Benjamin Barrett >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:21 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by >Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > >Right, but in case I wasn't clear, my question is who the entitled >quotation was first used for. BB > >On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > Opinion is still contentiously divided as to whether the same poet composed > > both, and why his name means "The [officially exchanged] Hostage." > > Actually, nobody knows the reason for that. > > > > The weight of the extensive linguistic evidence is that the texts we have > > were almost certainly written down, and revised in the writing, by > > different people. > > > > Who presumably bore different names. Most of the time. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett > > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > >> Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > >> Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> I recall reading that the Odyssey and the Iliad weren't written by = > >> Homer, but some other blind poet whose name is unknown. Although that = > >> line was tongue-in-cheek, it appears that modern speculation on his = > >> identity goes back to 1795 = > >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question). Which bard was this = > >> meme used for first?=20 > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Formerly of Seattle, WA > >> > >> Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > >> > >> On Aug 17, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >> > >>> Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=3D0A=3D > >>> "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery = > >> about Sh=3D > >>> akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William = > >> Shakespea=3D > >>> re, but by another person of the same name!"=3D0A=3D > >>> The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3D3DPA38&dq=3D3D%22bu= > >> t+by+an=3D > >>> = > >> > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3D3Den&sa=3D3DX&ei=3D3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGY= > >> DA&ved=3D > >>> = > >> > =3D3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20th= > >> e%20sam=3D > >>> e%20name%22&f=3D3Dfalse=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Stephen Goranson=3D0A=3D > >>> http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> ________________=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Garson:=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:=3D0A=3D > >>>> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=3D0A=3D > >>>> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>>> someone else of the same name.)=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=3D0A=3D > >>> Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another = > >> person=3D0A=3D > >>> of the same name.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> another man of the same name.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which = > >> has=3D0A=3D > >>> been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, = > >> Israel=3D0A=3D > >>> Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> The spelling "Shakspeare" was used for "Shakespeare" in the = > >> following=3D0A=3D > >>> two excerpts which made it harder to locate in the GB database.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1868 December, The National Quarterly Review, Volume 19, = > >> Number=3D0A=3D > >>> 35, Article 2: Early Christian Literature, Start Page 23, Quote = > >> Page=3D0A=3D > >>> 33, Edward I. Sears, Editor and Proprietor, New York. (Google = > >> Books=3D0A=3D > >>> Full View) link [/ref]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DXiUAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > >> v=3D3Ds=3D > >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> This admission of the learned bishop's, that the Apocrypha was > >> not=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> written by the apostle John but by an inspired man of that name,=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> reminds us forcibly of the Frenchman's criticism on the authorship = > >> of=3D0A=3D > >>> the plays usually attributed to Shakspeare, wherein after a = > >> careful=3D0A=3D > >>> review of the evidence pro and con, he comes to the conclusion = > >> that=3D0A=3D > >>> they were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the > >> same=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> name!=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1870 May 21, Harper's Bazaar, Volume 3, Meditations Among = > >> the=3D0A=3D > >>> Tombs of the Washingtons by Gail Hamilton, Quote Page 322, Column = > >> 4,=3D0A=3D > >>> Harper & Brothers, New York. (Google Books Full View) link > >> [/ref]=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDR6NP-RgCfUC&q=3D3D%22not+written+by%= > >> 22#v=3D > >>> =3D3Dsnippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> What have we gained when we have reached the conclusion that the = > >> plays=3D0A=3D > >>> of SHAKSPEARE were not written by SHAKSPEARE, but by another man = > >> of=3D0A=3D > >>> the same name?=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Below is the earliest instance I've found in this family of = > >> humorous=3D0A=3D > >>> remarks based on Homer.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1874, The Shotover Papers, Or, Echoes from Oxford, Volume > >> 1,=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> (Special Commemoration Number), Arrowlets, Quote Page 112, (No = > >> date=3D0A=3D > >>> was specified for this issue; the previous issue 6 was dated May = > >> 30,=3D0A=3D > >>> 1874; the next issue 8 was dated October 17 1874) Publisher J.=3D0A=3D > >>> Vincent, High Street, Oxford, England. (Google Books Full View) = > >> link=3D0A=3D > >>> [/ref]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DVKk-AQAAMAAJ&q=3D3D%22not+written%22#= > >> v=3D3Ds=3D > >>> nippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> The other day the witty D.C.L. listened gravely to a long debate = > >> among=3D0A=3D > >>> the dons at the High Table about the authorship of the Homeric = > >> Poems,=3D0A=3D > >>> and wound up the discussion thus: "I am much interested in the = > >> subject=3D0A=3D > >>> now before us, and I have come to the conclusion on hearing your=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> arguments that the Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> another person of the same name."=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Here is an example in 1840 of a discussion concerning multiple = > >> Homers=3D0A=3D > >>> without humorous overtones. It is this type of theory that = > >> prompted=3D0A=3D > >>> the comical remarks.=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [ref] 1840 September, The London Quarterly Review, Volume 66, = > >> Article=3D0A=3D > >>> 2, (Book Review of "The Plains of Troy" by Henry W. Acland), > >> Start=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> Page 189, Quote Page 194, Column 1, American Edition Published > >> by=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> Jemima M. Mason, New York. (Google Books Full View)=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> = > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DalQAAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3D%22same+name%22+#v= > >> =3D3Dsn=3D > >>> ippet&=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> [Begin excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> In the next place, according to the opinion of divers great=3D0A=3D > >>> scholars--not Germans--for example, Mr. Payne Knight, Bishop=3D0A=3D > >>> Thirlwall, and others--the man who wrote the Odyssey was not the = > >> same=3D0A=3D > >>> man who wrote the Iliad, but another of the same name, who lived > >> a=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> long time after Homer I,. and wrote so exceedingly like him that=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> almost all the world have confounded them together, like two = > >> single=3D0A=3D > >>> gentlemen rolled into one; and lastly, the same scholars, and > >> many=3D0A=3D= > >> > >>> others, hold it clear that the man who wrote that book of the = > >> Odyssey,=3D0A=3D > >>> in which the above quoted passage occurs, was neither Homer I., = > >> nor=3D0A=3D > >>> Homer II., but another man again, whom we may properly call Homer = > >> III.=3D0A=3D > >>> [End excerpt]=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >>> Garson=3D0A=3D > >>> =3D0A=3D > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Mon Aug 18 03:57:03 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:57:03 -0700 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408172328.s7HKhnON005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And colt is gender-specific - not sure whether that was evident in the video. On Aug 17, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >> =20 >> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 06:28:56 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 02:28:56 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408172328.s7HKhnOR005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line dictionary: "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." Ey wa-la. Youneverknow. On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > >=20 > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 06:30:44 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 02:30:44 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408180047.s7HKhnYN005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." The closest *what* to free will? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 10:36:56 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 18:36:56 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408180631.s7I40RCZ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: <> WB: Is he joking? JB: <> WB: Is the silent? Do they call him [yawn] for a reason? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Aug 18 11:06:17 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 07:06:17 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <91907.98581.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon Gnarr was born J?n Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his middle name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best Party, a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: QOTD At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. Joel >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Aug 18 11:19:21 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:19:21 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Beth. Looks good. Let us know how it goes. Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Beth Young Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] an antedating "how to"? Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. Thanks, Beth Young ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work in groups. This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real-world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the greatest language resources in the English language. You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original-scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html ***Choose which word(s) to look for: You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you probably should NOT search for * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out where else to look.) Instead, try looking for * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: http://public.oed.com/appeals/ To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for "antedating"): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l ***Decide where/how to search: Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation should be the end of your search window. The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the database you're searching. Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that there is--this is just an example.) Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in texts you're reading for another purpose. Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. Additional information on search strategies: http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search-for-an-origin (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer words) http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of-google.html (google tips and tricks) Some online databases to search in: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good-sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 a list of sites for researching etymology; https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant list of publicly accessible full-text databases Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure out which avenues are probably not worth exploring UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of some old local Florida papers). Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full content the library provides either through subscription or Open Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search them!) Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers 1600-1950) If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to access full-text online archives of past issues. ***Know what evidence you need: The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it doesn't count. * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in 1898 doesn't count. * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam Browne," that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression in use. What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a particular date. In particular, you need all the information required by the OED submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is being used: http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ Also see the FAQs about contributions here: http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute ***Take good notes! Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high-quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who tried > to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't appeal to > every student, but I figured that there might be one or two who would enjoy > the challenge. I thought that the activity would help students better > understand what's involved in this sort of research, and I wanted to give > them an opportunity to do research with potential real-world application. > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better students > chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they tended to > provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary ("Merriam-Webster > says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from the OED itself ("OED says > it means X but I think it really means Y") or a 21st century magazine > article that makes claims about how a word originated centuries earlier. > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to antedate > but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the easiest words would > be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a year ago. > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my classes > are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this activity > (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic information, such as > what counts as evidence and how one might go about antedating a word. > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have you > tried this sort of activity with students? > > thanks, > > Beth Young > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:11:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:11:30 -0400 Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' Message-ID: St. Louis police spokesman on CNN: "Comments were made that caused the situation to uprise." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 12:15:36 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:15:36 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <02b801cfbad4$6f2b3750$4d81a5f0$@net> Message-ID: Apparently it still is talk like a pirate day ... gnarr. One angry Gunnar, I suppose. He should be exiled to one of the other Scandinavian countries, where he would have free choice. Joel At 8/18/2014 07:06 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: >Jon Gnarr was born J?n Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his middle >name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the >patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. > >He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best Party, >a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government >sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Joel S. Berson >Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: QOTD > >At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > >Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. > >Joel > > > >JL > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:18:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:18:33 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408181106.s7IA2Eu5005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And if you can believe Book TV, he was a big success in office. We were in Iceland during his tenure. The opinion we heard was that Gnarr was just what the place needed after being bankrupted (they say) by the self-styled "Investment Vikings." Go figure. Anyway, his name is Jon. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Dave Wilton wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: QOTD > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon Gnarr was born J=F3n Gunnar Kristinsson. He legally changed his = > middle > name, but was not permitted by Icelandic law to officially drop the > patronymic. He goes by Jon Gnarr. > > He is a professional comedian and ran for office as part of the Best = > Party, > a satiric political party. He never expected to win, but anti-government > sentiment in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis put him into office.=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf = > Of > Joel S. Berson > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: QOTD > > At 8/17/2014 08:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Jon Gnarr, former mayor of Reykjavik, on BookTV: > > > >"In our consciousness, humor is the closest to Free Will." > > Can this be properly attributed? His name doesn't end in -son. > > Joel > > > >JL > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 12:22:52 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:22:52 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408180629.s7I40RCB005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, like "cygnet," may have always been.) Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for > kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question > is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line > dictionary: > > "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." > > Ey wa-la. > > Youneverknow. > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > "Funny _Baby Horse_" > > >=20 > > > Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > > > > Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > > "foal", I'd wager). =20 > > > > LH > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 18 12:31:15 2014 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 08:31:15 -0400 Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' In-Reply-To: <201408181211.s7IBMoEh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How long before we get spellings like, "I wanted to uprise you of something that occurred"? Neal On 8/18/2014 8:11 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: uprise = 'to escalate or worsen' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > St. Louis police spokesman on CNN: > > "Comments were made that caused the situation to uprise." > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 14:54:21 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:54:21 -0400 Subject: "make love" Message-ID: Some years ago it was observed here that OED had a huge gap between the "clearly innocent" meaning of "make love" and the clearly euphemistic meaning in 1950. Since then, the entry has been revised to include three earlier exx. The one from Orwell, 1934 ("Why is master always so angry with me when he has made love to me?") seems very plausible, though nowadays the preposition "with" is probably preferred to "to." I'm skeptical of the two earlier exx., however: 1927 ...Jimmy embraces Margie LaMont and goes through with her the business of making love to her by lying on top of her on a couch, each embracing the other. This is decribes a scene in a play by Mae West. It is hard to believe that the on-stage action portrayed sexual intercourse. 1929 ...Besides all the big times we had many small ways of making love and we tried putting thoughts in the other one's head while we were in different rooms. This too seems very ambiguous. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 14:56:39 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:56:39 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <3d1b4b2f246e4fb5a6357ceb8c637ab8@UGUNHPTO.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE >From Google Books: Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: Neale Publishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had a "million-dollar wound," which meant a long furlough with no danger to life or limb." http://books.google.com/books?id=-7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA549&dq=%22million+dollar+wound%22#v=onepage&q=%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=false > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call > that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets > you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:26:52 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:26:52 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other > than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, > like "cygnet," may have always been.) > > Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. > > JL except on menus, oddly LH > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature for >> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my question >> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line >> dictionary: >> >> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." >> >> Ey wa-la. >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >>>> =20 >>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? >>> >>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = >>> "foal", I'd wager). =20 >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:33:21 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:33:21 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <1707A840-EFE9-4C1A-851E-4F8237AE9450@yale.edu> Message-ID: JL: "Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred." LH: "except on menus, oddly" I dare say restaurateurs expect consumer resistance to eating "baby" animals -- hence "veal" instead of "baby cow". GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts other > > than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of the, > > like "cygnet," may have always been.) > > > > Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. > > > > JL > > except on menus, oddly > > LH > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: Re: YouTube caption > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and mature > for > >> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my > question > >> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an on-line > >> dictionary: > >> > >> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." > >> > >> Ey wa-la. > >> > >> Youneverknow. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn > >> wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Laurence Horn > >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption > >>> > >>> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>> > >>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" > >>>> =20 > >>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? > >>> > >>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > >>> "foal", I'd wager). =20 > >>> > >>> LH > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 18 15:38:09 2014 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:38:09 -0400 Subject: YouTube caption In-Reply-To: <201408181526.s7IF0nEt005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A few Google Ngram searches show that specific names such as "cygnet" are trending down somewhat, and "baby" names are trending slightly up, but still in the minority. Neal cygnet ~ baby swan https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cygnet_INF%2C+baby+swan_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Ccygnet_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bcygnets%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bcygnet%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20swan_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20swans%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20swan%3B%2Cc0 duckling ~ baby duck https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=duckling_INF%2Cbaby+duck_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cduckling_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bducklings%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bduckling%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20duck_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20ducks%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20duck%3B%2Cc0 gosling ~ baby goose https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=gosling_INF%2Cbaby+goose_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cgosling_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bgoslings%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bgosling%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20goose_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20geese%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20goose%3B%2Cc0 colt/foal/filly ~ baby horse https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=foal_NOUN_INF%2C+filly_INF%2Ccolt_INF%2Cbaby+horse_INF&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t3%3B%2Cfoal_NOUN_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfoal_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfoals_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfoaling_NOUN%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cfilly_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfilly%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bfillies%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Ccolt_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bcolt%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bcolts%3B%2Cc0%3B.t3%3B%2Cbaby%20horse_INF%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bbaby%20horse%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bbaby%20horses%3B%2Cc0 On 8/18/2014 11:26 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: YouTube caption > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> In my middlebrow experience, most names for young birds 'n beasts = > other >> than pup, puppy, kitten, and cub, are now mostly literary. (Some of = > the, >> like "cygnet," may have always been.) >> =20 >> Even "duckling" is on the way out, "baby duck" being preferred. >> =20 >> JL > except on menus, oddly > > LH >> =20 >> =20 >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> =20 >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>> =20 >>> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >>> =20 >>> The "baby horse" is really young. But ut appears to be nale and = > mature for >>> kits apparent ahem given tha it attempts to mount a mare. But my = > question >>> is rendered nugatory by definitions like the following, from an = > on-line >>> dictionary: >>> =20 >>> "An example of a colt is a _baby horse_." >>> =20 >>> Ey wa-la. >>> =20 >>> Youneverknow. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn = > >>> wrote: >>> =20 >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>>> Subject: Re: YouTube caption >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- >>>> =20 >>>> On Aug 17, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> =20 >>>>> "Funny _Baby Horse_" >>>>> =3D20 >>>>> Is the word, "colt," now obsolete? What about "foal"? >>>> =20 >>>> Not obsolete, just not widely known in urban/suburban America (esp. = > =3D >>>> "foal", I'd wager). =3D20 >>>> =20 >>>> LH >>>> =20 >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> -- >>> -Wilson >>> ----- >>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to >>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>> -Mark Twain >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." >> =20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:39:40 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:39:40 -0400 Subject: "make love" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Some years ago it was observed here Yup; since then it's even been written up. > that OED had a huge gap between the > "clearly innocent" meaning of "make love" and the clearly euphemistic > meaning in 1950. My favorite OED cite for the latter is the translation from Queneau, for all the presuppositions it builds in: 1967 B. Wright tr. R. Queneau Between Blue & Blue xiv. 151 When you make love on a bunk,..the man has to bump his head. > > Since then, the entry has been revised to include three earlier exx. The > one from Orwell, 1934 ("Why is master always so angry with me when he has > made love to me?") seems very plausible and a result of mental translation from the Burmese? > , though nowadays the preposition > "with" is probably preferred to "to." > > I'm skeptical of the two earlier exx., however: > > 1927 ...Jimmy embraces Margie LaMont and goes through with her the business > of making love to her by lying on top of her on a couch, each embracing the > other. > > This is decribes a scene in a play by Mae West. It is hard to believe that > the on-stage action portrayed sexual intercourse. > > 1929 ...Besides all the big times we had many small ways of making love and > we tried putting thoughts in the other one's head while we were in > different rooms. > > This too seems very ambiguous. True enough, sort of like the earlier examples of "hook up" (although not exhibiting the same ambiguity) before the euphemistic sense began to push out the ordinary metaphorical one. Note also http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/12/making-love.html, which accepts OED's verdict on this example; I agree with JL that it's misplaced. (Although it could be argued that by 1927 "make love" already involved a slippery slope, as it were.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:48:48 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:48:48 -0400 Subject: Rogeting Message-ID: it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article (Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 15:55:41 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:55:41 -0400 Subject: minus out = 'disregard' Message-ID: Legal commentator: "I am not going to minus out emotional reaction." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 16:03:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:03:17 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181456.s7IDWKv7005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright date of the copy I see is 1904. He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a "literary" term isn't in HDAS). More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much less before 1904). Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the former. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > From Google Books: > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: Neale > Pu= > blishing Co. 1905 p 549 > "In the parlance of our camp, I had a "million-dollar wound," which meant > a= > long furlough with no danger to life or limb." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D-7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22million+= > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfalse > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >=20 > > OED: Feb., 1945. > >=20 > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We call > > that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, but it gets > > you out of the foxholes for a bit." > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 16:06:19 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:06:19 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Good article! Some specific comments . . . > you probably should NOT search for > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > * Extremely new entries. Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > "antedating"): > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: http://www.barrypopik.com/ You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. This article: http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition would drive the point home in a memorable way. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Beth Young > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beth Young > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a > how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put > together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of > it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. > > Thanks, > > Beth Young > > > ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** > > > Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of > you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work > in groups. > > This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing > that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in > lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- > world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the > greatest language resources in the English language. > > You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! > Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur > genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with > Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: > http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- > scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html > > > > ***Choose which word(s) to look for: > > You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words > will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the > evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED > lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you > probably should NOT search for > > * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates > from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in > an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying > around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished > updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently > searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're > planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably > won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that > it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources > are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out > where else to look.) > > Instead, try looking for > > * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > Internet) > * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) > * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: > http://public.oed.com/appeals/ > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > "antedating"): > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > > > ***Decide where/how to search: > > Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the > word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation > should be the end of your search window. > > The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. > For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, > you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was > invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the > database you're searching. > > Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. > For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is > an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that > there is--this is just an example.) > > Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was > particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with > quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, > "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once > been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be > entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in > texts you're reading for another purpose. > > Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already > searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch > magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch > magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. > > Additional information on search strategies: > > http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- > for-an-origin > (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer > words) > > http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- > google.html > (google tips and tricks) > > > Some online databases to search in: > > http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- > sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 > a list of sites for researching etymology; > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant > list of publicly accessible full-text databases > > Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure > out which avenues are probably not worth exploring > > UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: > http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian > recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives > (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has > searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of > some old local Florida papers). > Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full > content the library provides either through subscription or Open > Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical > Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but > maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search > them!) > > Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left > toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful > include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; > Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections > Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida > Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino > Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth > Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, > Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. > > Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., > ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, > NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers > 1600-1950) > > If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to > access full-text online archives of past issues. > > > > ***Know what evidence you need: > > The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word > was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely > dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable > facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) > > Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: > > * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary > says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative > quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but > unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, > verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it > doesn't count. > > * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you > think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, > but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers > haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. > > * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run > articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But > the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you > need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the > earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in > 1898 doesn't count. > > * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words > "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam > Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam > Browne," > that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who > attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking > for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression > in use. > > What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original > print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a > particular date. > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > being used: > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > > The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is > more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. > > For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: > http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ > > Also see the FAQs about contributions here: > http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute > > > > ***Take good notes! > > Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, > and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- > quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. > > > > > > Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie > Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George > Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the > ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > > > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who > > tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't > > appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two > > who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help > > students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, > > and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with > potential real-world application. > > > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better > > students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they > > tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary > > ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from > > the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") > > or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word > originated centuries earlier. > > > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to > > antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the > easiest > > words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a > year ago. > > > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my > > classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this > > activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic > > information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go > about antedating a word. > > > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have > > you tried this sort of activity with students? > > > > thanks, > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 16:44:01 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:44:01 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <51940BD6-6010-473D-A041-E1BF5BB83DCC@yale.edu> Message-ID: Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help thinking that this is an error for "rogering". P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. Joel At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! > >http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article > >(Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) > >LH >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 16:54:05 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:54:05 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I see he uses the phrase in quote marks -- possibly indicating that he is repeating it from someplace he heard or read it?? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > date of the copy I see is 1904. > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > less before 1904). > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > former. > > JL > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > --------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > From Google Books: > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > Neale Pu= blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a= long furlough with no > danger > > to life or limb." > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D- > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22mil > > lion+= > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfal > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >--------------- > > > -------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >-- > > > -------- > > >=20 > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > >=20 > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > but > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > >=20 > > > JL > > >=20 > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > >truth." > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 16:58:40 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:58:40 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <631244.83196.bm@smtp120.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help thinking that this is an error for "rogering". > > P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. > > Joel We'd be even more suspicious if this appeared as a new sequence of eschatological novels and/or movies focused on the adventures of the Antichrist-led remnant after The Rapture has transported all of the True Believers: the Sinister Buttocks Series. LH > > At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >> >> http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article >> >> (Courtesy of Sue Blackwell at the forensic linguistics list) >> >> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 17:01:17 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:01:17 +0000 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE "Million dollar" represents a large amount of money to me in a way that other amounts don't. A "billion dollar wound" would be ridiculous, and a "thousand dollar wound" -- so what. Until not so long ago in American history/culture, it would have been the amount of money that, if you had it, you were set for life. The go-to word for rich person for a long time was Millionaire, but maybe now it doesn't convey it well. What I'm getting at is, does "million dollar" make sense ca. 1945 in a way that it wouldn't in 1905, or even more so in 1865? Would a million dollars have been too large an amount to make a sensible expression back then? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > date of the copy I see is 1904. > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > less before 1904). > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > former. > > JL > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > --------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > From Google Books: > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > Neale Pu= blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a= long furlough with no > danger > > to life or limb." > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D- > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA549&dq=3D%22mil > > lion+= > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3Dfal > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >--------------- > > > -------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >-- > > > -------- > > >=20 > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > >=20 > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > but > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > >=20 > > > JL > > >=20 > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > >truth." > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:17:03 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:17:03 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408181644.s7IF0nqx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >> >>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article > > Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help > thinking that this is an error for "rogering". > > P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that > plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful > personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." I wrote about some other cases of ham-handed thesaurusizing a couple of years ago in a piece for Lapham's Quarterly, "Word for Word": http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/reconsiderations/word-for-word.php?page=all And here's some more on spammy synonymy: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4584 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:28:08 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:28:08 -0400 Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181701.s7IGqG9P005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: He says it was in the "parlance of his camp." That tells me the quote marks are meant to endorse actual Civil War usage. In simple purchasing power, a million in 1865 would be worth 14.8 million today - or 1.11 mill in 1944 (according to http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/relativevalue.php). In other words, far more than plenty, but not a truly astronomical amount. But it's all subjective. "Million-dollar wound" might have been preferred to "thousand-dollar" because "million" was just as familiar a word and a much bigger amount. JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > "Million dollar" represents a large amount of money to me in a way that > oth= > er amounts don't. A "billion dollar wound" would be ridiculous, and a > "tho= > usand dollar wound" -- so what. Until not so long ago in American > history/= > culture, it would have been the amount of money that, if you had it, you > we= > re set for life. > > The go-to word for rich person for a long time was Millionaire, but maybe > n= > ow it doesn't convey it well. > > What I'm getting at is, does "million dollar" make sense ca. 1945 in a way > = > that it wouldn't in 1905, or even more so in 1865? Would a million > dollars= > have been too large an amount to make a sensible expression back then? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 11:03 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" (UNCLASSIFIED) > >=20 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > >=20 > > Amazing and incredible (in the current sense), Bill. Hunter says he > > based his book largely on notes made during the Civil War. Copyright > > date of the copy I see is 1904. > >=20 > > He is allegedly the coiner of the phrase "Billy Yank" (which as a > > "literary" term isn't in HDAS). > >=20 > > More significantly: no attestations between 1904 and late in WW2 (much > > less before 1904). > >=20 > > Cf. the Civil War ex. of "brass" (commissioned officers) in HDAS. > >=20 > > Independent inspiration or real continuity of usage? I suspect the > > former. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < > > william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > >=20 > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > > > Subject: Re: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > --------- > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > From Google Books: > > > > > > Alexander Hunter _Johnny Reb and Billy Yank_ New York, Washington: > > > Neale Pu=3D blishing Co. 1905 p 549 "In the parlance of our camp, I had > > > a "million-dollar wound," which meant a=3D long furlough with no > > danger > > > to life or limb." > > > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3D- > > 7MTAAAAYAAJ&pg=3D3DPA549&dq=3D3D%22mil > > > lion+=3D > > > > > > dollar+wound%22#v=3D3Donepage&q=3D3D%22million%20dollar%20wound%22&f=3D3D= > fal > > > dollar+se > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > > >Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:19 PM > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > >=3D20 > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > >--------------- > > > > -------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: slight antedating: "million-dollar wound" > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > >-- > > > > -------- > > > >=3D20 > > > > OED: Feb., 1945. > > > >=3D20 > > > > 1944 in _Augusta [Ga.] Chronicle_ (Jan. 1, 1945) 1: WITH AMERICAN > > > >TROOPS IN BELGIUM... "It's nothing much. Just a hunka shrapnel. We > > > >call that the million-dollar wound up here. It doesn't kill you, > > but > > > >it gets you out of the foxholes for a bit." > > > >=3D20 > > > > JL > > > >=3D20 > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > >truth." > > > >=3D20 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 18 17:37:31 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:37:31 -0700 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408181717.s7IGqGEj005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:17 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: Rogeting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> At 8/18/2014 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> it's all the rage--don't be sinister buttocks! >>> >>> http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/sinister-buttocks-roget-would-blush-at-the-crafty-cheek/2015027.article >> >> Somehow, with the illustration in the fore, so to speak, I can't help >> thinking that this is an error for "rogering". >> >> P.S. I'm surprised the cited article didn't say, as I infer, that >> plagiarism was the root. No need to look for synonyms for "powerful >> personalized services" if you haven't already seen it written somewhere. > > The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as > "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time > with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." > > I wrote about some other cases of ham-handed thesaurusizing a couple > of years ago in a piece for Lapham's Quarterly, "Word for Word": > > http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/reconsiderations/word-for-word.php?page=all > > And here's some more on spammy synonymy: > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4584 and recently on my blog, with a Zippy the Pinhead cartoon: http://arnoldzwicky.org/2014/08/05/thesaurus-play/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:41:35 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:41:35 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408181218.s7IBMoHX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JB: <> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 18 17:44:00 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:44:00 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > being used: > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA compared to simply submitting citations to the ADS-L (for example, requiring pronunciation data for all submissions seems overkill). I used to have an email address at the OED that I would cc ADS-l submissions to, but things started bouncing back from there (about the time they posted the above form). I have always believed that someone (Jesse?) would scrape stuff from the list and make sure that it got into the OED's files. I don't believe that Jesse works for the OED any longer (is that true?) -- do submissions posted here get considered for the OED? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 17:58:04 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 13:58:04 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408171301.s7HBiR7L005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." JL On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass more > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" or > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any ethnic > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most likely > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience of > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > JL > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 18 18:17:04 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:17:04 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF582@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > >> >> In particular, you need all the information required by the OED >> submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is >> being used: >> http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ >> > > Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA Hey, I've never encountered that acronym before. Useful, too--it eloquently captures the feeling I have when my felafel falls apart. LH > compared to simply submitting citations to the ADS-L (for example, requiring pronunciation data for all submissions seems overkill). > > I used to have an email address at the OED that I would cc ADS-l submissions to, but things started bouncing back from there (about the time they posted the above form). > > I have always believed that someone (Jesse?) would scrape stuff from the list and make sure that it got into the OED's files. I don't believe that Jesse works for the OED any longer (is that true?) -- do submissions posted here get considered for the OED? > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 18:30:03 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:30:03 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408181817.s7IGqGiD005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > >> Does anyone on the list use this form? It's something of a PITA > > Hey, I've never encountered that acronym before. Useful, too--it = > eloquently captures the feeling I have when my felafel falls apart. It's come up here a few times over the years, including in James Landau's onetime sig line, "The so-called subjunctive mood in English is such a PITA that it should be served with falafel." --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 18 18:40:56 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:40:56 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF484@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: A Farewell to Anuses, indeed. I've done a great deal of searching in Readex's America's Historical Newspapers & Gale's 19th C American Newspapers, as well as Proquest's historical files, and my impression is, that a search of these files will turn up about 1/3 of what is there to be found. I see a name, wonder "what else has that guy done", and search for him; whatever comes up often does not include the item that I started from. This is an everyday experience. As regards this antedating assignment: the students should also avoid looking to antedate an unusual sense of a common word, unless there is some second word to throw in that will eliminate most appearances of the common senses. I pointed out off-list to Beth that the approach I suggested -- searching for some phrase used as preamble to a word the writer thought new and strange, for instance, "as they say in Brooklyn", may turn up a variety of words to be checked in the OED; the opposite of starting with the OED and picking a word to try to antedate. GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Good article! > > Some specific comments . . . > > > you probably should NOT search for > > > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may > contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in > common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > > > * Extremely new entries. > Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older > (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > > "antedating"): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: > http://www.barrypopik.com/ > > > You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing > projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or > so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not > from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, > Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably > difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to > successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may > be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if > only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the > word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd > guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is > not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. > > This article: > > http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition > would drive the point home in a memorable way. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Beth Young > > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Beth Young > > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a > > how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put > > together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of > > it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** > > > > > > Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of > > you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work > > in groups. > > > > This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing > > that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in > > lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- > > world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the > > greatest language resources in the English language. > > > > You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! > > Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur > > genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with > > Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: > > http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- > > scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html > > > > > > > > ***Choose which word(s) to look for: > > > > You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words > > will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the > > evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED > > lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you > > probably should NOT search for > > > > * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates > > from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in > > an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying > > around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) > > > > * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are > > to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > > > * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished > > updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently > > searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're > > planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably > > won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that > > it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources > > are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out > > where else to look.) > > > > Instead, try looking for > > > > * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 > > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > > Internet) > > * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) > > * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: > > http://public.oed.com/appeals/ > > > > To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already > > found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for > > "antedating"): > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > > > > > > > ***Decide where/how to search: > > > > Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the > > word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation > > should be the end of your search window. > > > > The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. > > For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, > > you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was > > invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the > > database you're searching. > > > > Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. > > For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is > > an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that > > there is--this is just an example.) > > > > Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was > > particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with > > quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, > > "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once > > been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be > > entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in > > texts you're reading for another purpose. > > > > Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already > > searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch > > magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch > > magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. > > > > Additional information on search strategies: > > > > http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- > > for-an-origin > > (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer > > words) > > > > http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- > > google.html > > (google tips and tricks) > > > > > > Some online databases to search in: > > > > http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- > > sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 > > a list of sites for researching etymology; > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant > > list of publicly accessible full-text databases > > > > Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure > > out which avenues are probably not worth exploring > > > > UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: > > http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian > > recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives > > (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has > > searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of > > some old local Florida papers). > > Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( > > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full > > content the library provides either through subscription or Open > > Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical > > Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but > > maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search > > them!) > > > > Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left > > toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful > > include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; > > Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections > > Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida > > Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino > > Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth > > Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, > > Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. > > > > Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., > > ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, > > NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers > > 1600-1950) > > > > If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to > > access full-text online archives of past issues. > > > > > > > > ***Know what evidence you need: > > > > The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word > > was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely > > dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable > > facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: > > http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) > > > > Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: > > > > * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary > > says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative > > quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but > > unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, > > verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it > > doesn't count. > > > > * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you > > think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, > > but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers > > haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. > > > > * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run > > articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But > > the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you > > need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the > > earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in > > 1898 doesn't count. > > > > * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words > > "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam > > Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam > > Browne," > > that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who > > attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking > > for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression > > in use. > > > > What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original > > print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a > > particular date. > > > > In particular, you need all the information required by the OED > > submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is > > being used: > > http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ > > > > The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is > > more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. > > > > For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: > > http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ > > > > Also see the FAQs about contributions here: > > http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute > > > > > > > > ***Take good notes! > > > > Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, > > and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- > > quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie > > Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George > > Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the > > ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. > > > > > > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: > > > > > Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? > > > > > > Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who > > > tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't > > > appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two > > > who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help > > > students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, > > > and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with > > potential real-world application. > > > > > > The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better > > > students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they > > > tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary > > > ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from > > > the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") > > > or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word > > originated centuries earlier. > > > > > > One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to > > > antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the > > easiest > > > words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a > > year ago. > > > > > > A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my > > > classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this > > > activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic > > > information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go > > about antedating a word. > > > > > > Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have > > > you tried this sort of activity with students? > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > Beth Young > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 18:41:18 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:41:18 +0300 Subject: an antedating "how to"? Message-ID: Good stuff, one correction: > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the Internet) Perhaps you meant before the World Wide Web, which was invented in 1989. The internet goes back longer, as evidenced by Usenet which goes back to around 1981. Usenet is a rich source of antedatings (especially and unsurprisingly for internet jargon) and searchable via Google Groups. http://groups.google.com/ Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 19:01:21 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:01:21 -0400 Subject: BuzzFeed deletes thousands of old articles Message-ID: News item illustrating one of the problems encountered by researchers attempting to trace the provenance of words and phrases in the electronic age. Title: Is BuzzFeed?s deletion of articles an ethical lapse or the growing pains of a new-media entity? Author: Mathew Ingram Timestamp: Aug. 15, 2014 - 11:21 AM PDT http://bit.ly/1kHolYR http://gigaom.com/2014/08/15/is-buzzfeeds-deletion-of-articles-an-ethical-lapse-or-the-growing-pains-of-a-new-media-entity/ [Begin excerpt] Summary: BuzzFeed has come under fire for deleting thousands of old articles, which founder Jonah Peretti says didn?t live up to the kinds of standards the site wants to adhere to now. Should the company be criticized for doing this because it?s a journalistic no-no, or congratulated for evolving? [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 19:08:55 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:08:55 -0400 Subject: G[ood]'day Message-ID: Do Australian employees of retail business say to departing customers "Have a g'day"? I think I heard the 20-something son of the Korean owners of my laundry/dry cleaner's establishment pronounce it that way today, but my ears aren't as young as they once were. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 18 19:47:43 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:47:43 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408181758.s7IGqGYV005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The police are using illegal weapondry." JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass > more > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" > or > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > ethnic > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > likely > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience > of > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > > > ----- > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 20:30:53 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:30:53 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My apologies. I can't say why I missed this. Joel At 8/18/2014 01:17 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >The article's pretty explicit about it. "Roget-ing" is defined as >"disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time >with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Mon Aug 18 20:43:03 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:43:03 -0400 Subject: Rogeting In-Reply-To: <201408182030.s7IJrBMP005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 01:17 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ?Roget-ing? is defined as "disguising plagiarism by substituting synonyms, one word at a time with no attempt to understand either the source or target text." I?m not terribly surprised at the above development. Some universities encourage gibberish, plagiarism, the falsification of citations, etc., even providing awards and/or promotions to faculty and administrators who engage in it or turn a blind eye to it. Likewise, the U.S. Dep?t of Education doesn?t seem to care about plagiarism nor do accrediting agencies. Chris Philippo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 18 20:48:04 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:48:04 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: >JB: <> >WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the equally-unreadable Fraktur.) Joel P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", and "brr"? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 00:07:26 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 20:07:26 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? In-Reply-To: <201408181841.s7IIVZUh005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for catching that, Hugo! I did mean the WWW (figuring that OED lexicographers weren't doing archival research via usenet, though that might be wrong) but as my brain was thinking WWW, my fingers were typing "Internet." Beth On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Hugo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Hugo > Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Good stuff, one correction: > > > * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the > Internet) > > Perhaps you meant before the World Wide Web, which was invented in 1989. > The internet goes back longer, as evidenced by Usenet which goes back to > around 1981. Usenet is a rich source of antedatings (especially and > unsurprisingly for internet jargon) and searchable via Google Groups. > http://groups.google.com/ > > Hugo > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 01:10:53 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 18:10:53 -0700 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta Message-ID: Kurobuta (< Japanese: ??, lit. black pig) is well established among foodies as Berkshire pork. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurobuta) says "Kagoshima Kurobuta" is trademarked, but it wouldn't surprise me to find something at a restaurant labelled as "kurobuta/kurabuta" that isn't from Kagoshima. The earliest hit I see on Google books for "kurobuta" is from around 1986 (I found one later year but it was a stamp): c. 1986: "????????????" (http://bit.ly/1oVAuor) Kurabuta, a spelling probably from English progressive metaphony, gets 50K hits. The earliest two I see on Google are: 2004: "Differentiation through our genes" (http://bit.ly/XweJWY) 2005: "Kurabuta Ham Recipe" (http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/301154) Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 01:42:07 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 09:42:07 +0800 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta In-Reply-To: <201408190110.s7J13b6x005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: BB: <> WB: Looks like Regressive Graphicization of Successive Schwazifications to me. {8^()} (Possibly metaphony in a Schleicherian sense, literally.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 02:34:26 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:34:26 +0800 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408182048.s7IJrBY3005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hmm... South of the Mason-Dixon, they call me Brrr. Sesquisyllabic /r/, stress on the middle . When I recently asked if Granddaddy Brewer had been a WWI veteran, Pappy said, <> i.e. for Capital Transit in D.C. And that's my genealogy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 19 03:11:06 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:11:06 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The police are using illegal weapondry." They haven't yet used water hoses. JSB >JL > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological mass > > more > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated against" > > or > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if so it > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > > ethnic > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > likely > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent experience > > of > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -Wilson > > > > ----- > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 04:54:17 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 00:54:17 -0400 Subject: "make love" In-Reply-To: <201408181454.s7IDWKuH005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > nowadays the preposition > "with" is probably preferred to "to." > I haven't come across this "make love with," yet. With any luck, I never will. If "make love to" was good enough for both Jo Stafford and Muddy Waters, it's good enough for me. ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 05:03:01 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 22:03:01 -0700 Subject: kurobuta: metaphony to kurabuta In-Reply-To: <201408190142.s7J13bAJ005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're right, reduction is more likely. I thought I'd heard a number of tokens over the last few years, but I'll have to start paying better attention and see if they're all just schwa reductions. BB On Aug 18, 2014, at 6:42 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > BB: <> > WB: Looks like Regressive Graphicization of Successive Schwazifications to > me. {8^()} (Possibly metaphony in a Schleicherian sense, literally.) > > - ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 12:43:13 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:43:13 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408171526.s7HBiRJb005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An entry on this topic is now available on the QI website. The acknowledgement mentions Stephen Goranson, JL, and other discussion participants. The Plays of Shakespeare Were Not Written by Shakespeare but by Another Man of the Same Name http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/19/same-name/ Feedback welcome. Thanks, Garson On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about Sh= > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William Shakespea= > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > =0A= > Stephen Goranson=0A= > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > =0A= > ________________=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > Garson:=0A= > =0A= > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > =0A= > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > =0A= > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > another man of the same name.=0A= > =0A= > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > =0A= > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > =0A= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Aug 19 16:27:03 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:27:03 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <552309.28590.bm@smtp111.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: JB: The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. The immigration official who handled your grandfather's papers can't have been Fiorello LaGuardia, then. As a young man, he worked on Ellis Island, handling immigrants who spoke Italian or Yiddish (his mother's family language). But isn't ...son or ...sohn a fairly common ending to (American) Jewish names? Are they all to be credited to hacks at Ellis Island? (And my impression, from the LaGuardia story, is that the bosses who staffed Ellis Island chose people with at least some thought to their ability to speak one or another of the languages likely to be spoken by the immigrants. They would also know by the boat's port of origin whether the passengers would mostly be speakers of Italian, or German, or Yiddish, &c. Whether a processor who spoke Finnish, or Bulgarian, or Slovenian would always be on hand when needed is maybe doubtful.) GAT On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > JB: <> >> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... >> > > The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the > not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one > allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) > was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around > 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other > spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, > Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as > "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship > papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my > brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into > German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the > equally-unreadable Fraktur.) > > Joel > > P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", > and "brr"? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 17:07:39 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 13:07:39 -0400 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo Message-ID: http://goo.gl/hdfxut Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study finds "Than" kind of jumped out at me. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 19 17:54:20 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:54:20 +0000 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo In-Reply-To: <201408191707.s7JFUPhr019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We deal here with a blend: "twice as much as" + "two times more than". Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:07 PM, wrote: http://goo.gl/hdfxut Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study finds "Than" kind of jumped out at me. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 19:18:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:18:12 -0400 Subject: Interesting headline in WaPo In-Reply-To: <201408191754.s7JHOTFD019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Seems like I've heard this construction may times on cable news. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Interesting headline in WaPo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We deal here with a blend: "twice as much as" + "two times more than". > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:07 > PM, = > wrote: > > http://goo.gl/hdfxut > Daughters provide twice as much care for aging parents than sons do, study > finds > > "Than" kind of jumped out at me. > > VS-)= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 19:37:13 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 15:37:13 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X Message-ID: This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to "conventional wisdom". http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 The punchline should be revealing: > I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief that there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which of course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 19 20:06:30 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:06:30 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > "conventional wisdom". > > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > > The punchline should be revealing: > >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief that > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which of > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must have meant "epicranium". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Tue Aug 19 20:30:04 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:30:04 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t1D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A student of mine recently pointed out that 'lols/lulz' could be understood as a very close translation of Schadenfreude. Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Horn" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 4:06:30 PM > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > > "conventional wisdom". > >=20 > > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > >=20 > > The punchline should be revealing: > >=20 > >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief > >> = > that > > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but > > which = > of > > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > >=20 > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I > must = > have meant "epicranium". > LH > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Tue Aug 19 20:39:25 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:39:25 -0300 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t1f019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Collins has it, with schadenfreude as a synonym. DAD On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > "conventional wisdom". >=20 > http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >=20 > The punchline should be revealing: >=20 >> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief = that > there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = of > course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >=20 "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must = have meant "epicranium". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 20:42:33 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 13:42:33 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192006.s7JK5t0f019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has citations over the past decade, plus ????????????? in English in 1621 and a mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is treated differently from use of a word.) BB On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >> "conventional wisdom". >> =20 >> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >> =20 >> The punchline should be revealing: >> =20 >>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief = > that >> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = > of >> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >> =20 > > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the = > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I must = > have meant "epicranium". > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 20:52:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:52:16 -0400 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192042.s7JK5td1019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld has recently discovered it. Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = > citations over the past decade, plus > =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= > =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = > mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = > treated differently from use of a word.) BB > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = > wrote: > > >=20 > >=20 > > On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >=20 > >> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to > >> "conventional wisdom". > >> =3D20 > >> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 > >> =3D20 > >> The punchline should be revealing: > >> =3D20 > >>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D > > that > >> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as > >> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = > =3D > > of > >> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. > >> =3D20 > >=20 > > "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D > > relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = > must =3D > > have meant "epicranium". > >=20 > > LH > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 19 21:01:41 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:01:41 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192052.s7JK5tgb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's right, but the significance of it is that it's used in English. BB On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. > > Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld > has recently discovered it. > > Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = >> citations over the past decade, plus >> =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= >> =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = >> mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = >> treated differently from use of a word.) BB >> >> On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = >> wrote: >> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>> =20 >>>> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >>>> "conventional wisdom". >>>> =3D20 >>>> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >>>> =3D20 >>>> The punchline should be revealing: >>>> =3D20 >>>>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D >>> that >>>> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >>>> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = >> =3D >>> of >>>> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >>>> =3D20 >>> =20 >>> "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D >>> relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = >> must =3D >>> have meant "epicranium". >>> =20 >>> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 22:36:44 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:36:44 -0400 Subject: More butts In-Reply-To: <201205010351.q3U5FZGn011145@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Somewhere along the line ISTR some unreasonable doubt as to whether "butt" was ever considered vulgar. Cf.: 1941 _Springfield [Mass.] Republican_ (July 11) 12: "General Lear he missed his putt/ Parley vous/ The 110th got it in the ---- / Hinky-dinky parlez-vous." (I.e., they suffered as a result. Had the word been "ass," I doubt that it would even have been alluded to but you don't expurgate what nobody thinks is vulgar.) JL On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More butts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Victor Steinbok > wrote: > > "Buck-naked" > > Does the OED have "buck-_nekkid_"? That's the way that I've seen it in > print since way back when. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 22:38:28 2014 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 18:38:28 -0400 Subject: Antedating determinative Message-ID: Brett Reynolds: http://english-jack.blogspot.com/2014/08/antedating-determinative.html?m=1 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 19 23:22:32 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 19:22:32 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408182048.s7IJrBXx005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > "brr" How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of "brr" was trilled, a la espanol? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Tue Aug 19 23:32:40 2014 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 16:32:40 -0700 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: <201408192323.s7JL22mj019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember it trilled with the lips, but not the tongue. Does that count? On Aug 19, 2014, at 4:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: QOTD > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> "brr" > > > How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of > "brr" was trilled, a la espanol? > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 00:34:18 2014 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 20:34:18 -0400 Subject: More butts In-Reply-To: <201408192236.s7JL22gN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If it wasn't, you'll have to explain the appearance of Seymour Butts joke (the Simpsons), right alongside Mike Hunt (Porky's) and Phil McCracken (Drew Carey Show). VS-) PS: Of course, all three have been around much longer than their cinematic representations. On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More butts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Somewhere along the line ISTR some unreasonable doubt as to whether "butt" > was ever considered vulgar. > > Cf.: > > 1941 _Springfield [Mass.] Republican_ (July 11) 12: "General Lear he missed > his putt/ Parley vous/ The 110th got it in the ---- / Hinky-dinky > parlez-vous." > > (I.e., they suffered as a result. Had the word been "ass," I doubt that it > would even have been alluded to but you don't expurgate what nobody thinks > is vulgar.) > > JL > > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: More butts > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Victor Steinbok > > wrote: > > > "Buck-naked" > > > > Does the OED have "buck-_nekkid_"? That's the way that I've seen it in > > print since way back when. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 01:07:49 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard some of the same things George has about the better qualifications of immigration officials. But I said it was a family tradition ... I don't know about "son" as common among Jews, but I imagine it was common among many peoples who paid more attention to patronyms than to multi-generational family names. Joel At 8/19/2014 12:27 PM, George Thompson wrote: >JB: The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the >not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one >allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) >was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around 1905. > >The immigration official who handled your grandfather's papers can't have >been Fiorello LaGuardia, then. As a young man, he worked on Ellis Island, >handling immigrants who spoke Italian or Yiddish (his mother's family >language). > >But isn't ...son or ...sohn a fairly common ending to (American) Jewish >names? Are they all to be credited to hacks at Ellis Island? (And my >impression, from the LaGuardia story, is that the bosses who staffed Ellis >Island chose people with at least some thought to their ability to speak >one or another of the languages likely to be spoken by the immigrants. >They would also know by the boat's port of origin whether the passengers >would mostly be speakers of Italian, or German, or Yiddish, &c. Whether a >processor who spoke Finnish, or Bulgarian, or Slovenian would always be on >hand when needed is maybe doubtful.) > >GAT > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/18/2014 01:41 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > > > JB: <> > >> WB: Wonder if JB's daddy was Papa Ber ... > >> > > > > The tradition is that it was my paternal grandfather, with the > > not-uncommon tale type that his Russian (not Icelandic) name (the one > > allowed by the authorities of his region of emigration, beyond the pale) > > was unpronounceable, according to the Ellis Island official of around > > 1905. My grandfather's father's given name was "Behr" (or some other > > spelling in Latin letters, and I don't know whether it was Russian, > > Yiddish, or Hebrew), and my grandfather became "Berson" (pronounced now as > > "Brr-son", as in the shiver of cold). I have seen my grandfather's ship > > papers, from Hamburg of course, with a Russian name that neither I nor my > > brother can read, let alone pronounce. (No translation of the name into > > German .. and even it there was, it would probably have been in the > > equally-unreadable Fraktur.) > > > > Joel > > > > P.S. What region do I belong to if I distinguish "bear", "beer", "burr", > > and "brr"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998.. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 01:31:44 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:31:44 -0400 Subject: QOTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/19/2014 07:22 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > "brr" > > >How old are you and where are you from, if you can remember when the -rr of >"brr" was trilled, a la espanol? I can't remember the -rr of "brr" being trilled, so I won't tell you how old I am. Gargled, perhaps. Joel >-- >-Wilson >----- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 10:54:55 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:54:55 -0400 Subject: welcomely Message-ID: 'With thanks; gratefully' Attorney on CNN yesterday: "They accepted it welcomely." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Aug 20 14:17:49 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:17:49 +0000 Subject: two snits (no friz?) Message-ID: Though I would rather be discussing whether "on the friz" is plausibly linked with freeze and froze and the like (so, in effect, stopped, not working), while I wait for opinions pro or con (on or off-list), no need to get into a snit fit, but bide time by mentioning a perhaps-less-certain association of two 1930s snits. OED for snit noun2 starts: Etymology: Of uncertain origin (see quot. 19392). slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.)... A state of agitation; a fit of rage or bad temper; a tantrum, sulk. Freq. in phr. in a snit. 1939 C. Boothe Kiss Boys Good-bye ii. i. 105 'I declare, Mrs. Rand, I cried myself into a snit.' 'A snit?' 'I do deplore it, but when I'm in a snit I'm prone to bull the object of my wrath plumb in the tummy.' 1939 Sat. Rev. Lit. 23 Dec. 12/1 The membership could hardly be said to be in a snit,..as nobody in Georgia seems ever to have heard of either the word or the state of being until Miss Clare Boothe isolated and defined it. [....] Snit appears in the printed version of the play six times, in the now-familiar sense. Before the play, snit seems rare. (American Speech 1937 p. 287 notes that ?"a snit is a slice, as of an orange" in the Shenandoah Valley, but that may be unrelated.) Snit appears in a 1934 novel, The Golden Vanity (New York: William Morris), by Isabel Paterson (the libertarian). Both women, Paterson and Boothe (Luce), were active in New York politics and journalism circles; perhaps they knew of one another. This snit is not identical to the 1939 (and earlier theater production) use, but might there be some relation? Or, can anyone find a pre-Kiss snit use? Page 110: "Isn't young Mr. Dickerson the son of Julius?" Mysie enquired. "I should say off hand that he is a snit." "You overstate," said Jake. "He is ectoplasm...." [The word "tantrum" appears on p. 109, but apparently coincidentally; GB lists 1981 and 2013 works that employ the odd collocation "ectoplasmic snit," perhaps also coincidental.] Stephen Goranson people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 14:59:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:59:17 -0400 Subject: bamaw = 'grandmother' Message-ID: Brace yourself: not in DARE. Development of "mamaw." Quite a few Google hits. 2001 "Shelly r" [sic] _Entertaining Jonathan_ (Lincoln, Neb.: iUniverse) 194: ?Bamaw, Bamaw, we're back,? Sunny Daye called, as she banged the front door behind her. 2009 Winston Groom _Vicksburg 1863_ (N.Y.: Random House) 258: ?But why did they do it, Bamaw?? the child asked. JL - "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 11:24:14 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:24:14 +0000 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" Message-ID: Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from _Lady Chatterley?s Lover_: ?It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We?re free to talk to anybody; so why shouldn?t we be free to make love to any woman who inclines us that way?? ?There speaks the lascivious Celt,? said Clifford. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 16:38:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:38:30 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <201408201600.s7KF5v9N019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Much better. One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been found outside of court transcripts. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from > _L= > ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: > > =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to > t= > alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman > who= > inclines us that way?=92 > > =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 20 16:39:58 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:39:58 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot Message-ID: Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded by Isaac Heron. New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, supplement, p. 1, col. 2 I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:02:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:02:32 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Might also be worth looking at "faire l'amour", which underwent a similar shift (earlier? simultaneously?). LH On Aug 20, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Much better. > > One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, > since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. > > Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been > found outside of court transcripts. > > JL > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from >> _L= >> ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: >> >> =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to >> t= >> alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman >> who= >> inclines us that way?=92 >> >> =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. >> >> Fred Shapiro= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:18:01 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:18:01 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A05EE1@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from _Lady Chatterley?s Lover_: > > ?It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We?re free to talk to anybody; so why shouldn?t we be free to make love to any woman who inclines us that way?? > > ?There speaks the lascivious Celt,? said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org and earlier in the same we have this exchange between the two writers Charlie May (Clifford Chatterley's "lascivious Celt" in the above exchange) and Hammond: =================== "The whole point about the sexual problem," said Hammond, who was a tall thin fellow with a wife and two children, but much more closely connected with a typewriter, "is that there is no point to it. Strictly there is no problem. We don't want to follow a man into the W.C., so why should we want to follow him into bed with a woman? And therein lies the problem. If we took no more notice of the one thing than the other, there'd be no problem. It's all utterly senseless and pointless; a matter of misplaced curiosity." "Quite, Hammond, quite! But if someone starts making love to Julia, you begin to simmer; and if he goes on, you are soon at boiling point.". . .Julia was Hammond's wife. "Why, exactly! So I should be if he began to urinate in a corner of my drawing-room. There's a place for all these things." "You mean you wouldn't mind if he made love to Julia in some discreet alcove?" Charlie May was slightly satirical, for he had flirted a very little with Julia, and Hammond had cut up very roughly. "Of course I should mind. Sex is a private thing between me and Julia; and of course I should mind anyone else trying to mix in." =================== --I would guess that the first instance of "make love" ("But if someone starts making love to Julia, you begin to simmer") is the older one, akin to "flirt with", while probably the second one ("made love to Julia in some discreet alcove") and clearly the one Fred cites, several lines below it, represent the euphemistic one. Immediately following Clifford's remark we have this between May and Hammond: ==================== "Lascivious! well, why not--? I can't see I do a woman any more harm by sleeping with her than by dancing with her. . .or even talking to her about the weather. It's just an interchange of sensations instead of ideas, so why not?" "Be as promiscuous as the rabbits!" said Hammond. "Why not? What's wrong with rabbits? Are they any worse than a neurotic, revolutionary humanity, full of nervous hate?" ==================== Those rabbits aren't just flirting. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 20 17:24:14 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:24:14 -0300 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <201408201640.s7KF5vOX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on Google. DAD Poster: George Thompson Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded by Isaac Heron. New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, supplement, p. 1, col. 2 I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:25:07 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:25:07 +0000 Subject: Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Message-ID: How about this citation: make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (Lexis) As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. Fred Shapiro Editor YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (Yale University Press) ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 12:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" Much better. One suspects that the euphemism (perhaps only in speech) is quite old, since "love" in the relevant sense goes back centuries. Before the 1920s, I doubt that so "degraded" a euphemism would have been found outside of court transcripts. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is from > _L= > ady Chatterley=92s Lover_: > > =91It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We=92re free to > t= > alk to anybody; so why shouldn=92t we be free to make love to any woman > who= > inclines us that way?=92 > > =91There speaks the lascivious Celt,=92 said Clifford. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 20 17:35:09 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:35:09 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <000d01cfbc9b$91a38800$b4ea9800$@com> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 1:24 PM, David Daniel wrote: > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on Google. Not even for Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard & Co.? LH > > > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > by Isaac > Heron. > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 20 17:48:47 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:48:47 -0700 Subject: Yet more angst of lack of words for X In-Reply-To: <201408192052.s7JK5tgb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I started wondering whether wordies did pick up epicaricacy because it's on word lists without English equivalents. Other than 1955, which appears to be fabricated as a way to sell a book, the earliest citation after the eighteenth century Wiktionary has is 2004, followed by citations in 2007 and 2008. On alt.support.menopause (http://bit.ly/XAFTfh), user "Chakolate" says they found epicaricacy on onelook.com as the Latinate English equivalent to Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude, BTW, got a huge bump in popularization in 1991 of "When Flanders Failed" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Flanders_Failed), a Simpson's episode. That's quite a bit of time before 2004, but perhaps the accretion of schadenfreude uses in rerun viewers' brains reached a critical point that laid the groundwork for epicaricacy. Very relevant to the untranslatability theory, on October 11, 2006, user "Top Poster" says on alt.tv.lost (http://bit.ly/1tmbhJ3): ----- I was making a joke becaue [sic] schadenfreude has been the magic word of the day lately, and all the boneheads who use it heard it from someone else who told them "there is no english equivalent." However, I should note that there IS, in fact, an english equivalent: epicaricacy ----- Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In fact the 1621 example isn't English, but Greek. > > Looks like the English word may have been coined in 1955 and the cyberworld > has recently discovered it. > > Coined presumably because "Schadenfreude" was untranslatable in English. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Yet more angst of lack of words for X >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:epicaricacy) has = >> citations over the past decade, plus >> =E1=BC=90=CF=80=CE=B9=CF=87=CE=B1=CE=B9= >> =CF=81=CE=B5=CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=BA=CE=AF=CE=B1 in English in 1621 and a = >> mention of epicaricacy in 1955. (On Wiktionary, mention of a word is = >> treated differently from use of a word.) BB >> >> On Aug 19, 2014, at 1:06 PM, Laurence Horn = >> wrote: >> >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> On Aug 19, 2014, at 3:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>> =20 >>>> This one a bit more reasonable than most -- almost contrarian to >>>> "conventional wisdom". >>>> =3D20 >>>> http://goo.gl/X5jRD4 >>>> =3D20 >>>> The punchline should be revealing: >>>> =3D20 >>>>> I'm still looking for one more ... a word for the mistaken belief =3D >>> that >>>> there is no English equivalent for a non-English word, such as >>>> Schadenfreude, which many people believe doesn't translate, but which = >> =3D >>> of >>>> course simply means epicaricacy. Suggestions welcome. >>>> =3D20 >>> =20 >>> "Epicaricacy", a new one on me, does show up via Googling with the =3D >>> relevant gloss, but isn't in the OED, and dictionary.com thought I = >> must =3D >>> have meant "epicranium". >>> =20 >>> LH >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 18:14:28 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:14:28 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: <201408201723.s7KF5vjR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are likely to come into contact with stolen goods. DanG On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:24 PM, David Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Daniel > Subject: Re: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on > Google. > DAD > > > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, London, > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > by Isaac > Heron. > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > GAT > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 18:44:45 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:44:45 -0400 Subject: Early Example of "Make Love" Meaning "Have Sex" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A05EE1@x10-mbx5.yu.yale. edu> Message-ID: At 8/20/2014 07:24 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >Another probable early example of "make love" meaning "have sex" is >from _Lady Chatterley's Lover_: > > 'It seems to me you might leave the labels off sex. We're free > to talk to anybody; so why shouldn't we be free to make love to any > woman who inclines us that way?' > > 'There speaks the lascivious Celt,' said Clifford. Male chauvinism in intercourse of two kinds? "talk to", not "talk with", as well as "make love". JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 18:48:20 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:48:20 -0400 Subject: "... in Outside Chicago" Message-ID: Daily Beast headline: Last Hostages Freed in Outside Chicago http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/08/20/last-hostages-freed-in-outside-chicago.html DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 20 19:12:24 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:12:24 -0400 Subject: "fritz" from "frig"? Message-ID: A colleague on another list just wrote "Have you tried taping the paper to the refrigerator? Your animals probably aren?t up to climbing the frig. I don?t have animals, and I quite often tape to the frig?just so they won?t get lost on my desk." 1) I wonder how she pronounces it. 2) If she says "fridg", might this cold source, rather than "friz" = "frozen", be the origin of "fritz" = 'not working"? [Not really suggested seriously.] JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 21:43:13 2014 From: caitqlin at HOTMAIL.COM (caitlin o) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:43:13 -0700 Subject: Chester Drawer Message-ID: Today on the DC area freecycle feed: "I'm in need of a Chester Drawer in good condition." Meaning, presumably, chest of drawers, or chesterfield? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From btorbert at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 22:06:44 2014 From: btorbert at GMAIL.COM (Benjamin Torbert) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:06:44 -0500 Subject: Chester Drawer In-Reply-To: <201408202143.s7KLCZ1D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: AS article on said: http://www.waywordradio.org/Chester_Drawers.pdf On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 4:43 PM, caitlin o wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: caitlin o > Subject: Chester Drawer > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today on the DC area freecycle feed: > "I'm in need of a Chester Drawer in good condition." > Meaning=2C presumably=2C chest of drawers=2C or chesterfield? > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 20 23:46:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:46:11 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" Message-ID: In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." Go, as they say, figger. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 21 00:02:07 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:02:07 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally > rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > > Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > > Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear > Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." It was only later, when they discovered fluoridation was a Commie plot, that they changed it to Flori-duh. LH > > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > > Go, as they say, figger. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 00:59:34 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:59:34 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210002.s7KLCZZL019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, I meant "principle." So sue me. JL On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold = > formally > > rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > >=20 > > Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > >=20 > > Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > > Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly = > hear > > Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > > It was only later, when they discovered fluoridation was a Commie plot, = > that they changed it to Flori-duh. > > LH > > >=20 > > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or = > "Alabammy." > >=20 > > Go, as they say, figger. > >=20 > > JL > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 02:39:16 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:39:16 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408202346.s7KLCZVN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." My parents used "Georgy" and "Alabam-uh." Youneverknow. Will no language rid itself of these annoying inconsistencies?! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 21 03:03:47 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 23:03:47 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/20/2014 07:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally >rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > >Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > >Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the >Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear >Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > >That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > >Go, as they say, figger. Eeraye, Eeraye, ay. Well, close: Patsy ory ory ay Patsy ory ory ay Patsy ory ory ay Working on the railroad. (Why the last line isn't published as "Working on the railway" I have no idea. I'm sure around the campfires many sang it that way to introduce a rhyme.) JSB. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 03:22:57 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:22:57 +0800 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210303.s7L1MM3X019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JL: <> WB: Ooooh! You used the f-word! From campfire ditties: What did Delaware? She wore her New Jersey. What does Iowa? She weighs a Washington. What does Idaho? She hoes her Maryland. Where has Oregon? She's gone to Oklahoma. What did Massa-chew? He chewed his Connecti-cud. Why did Cali-phone ya? He phoned to say "Hawaii" Where has Oregon? Alaska where she's gone. She went to pay her Texas. What did Mississip? She sipped a Mini-soda. How did Wiscon-sin? She stole a New-brass-key, Too bad that Arkan-saw, and so did Tenna-see. It made poor Flori-die, you see, she died in Missouri. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/delaware.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 08:57:46 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 04:57:46 -0400 Subject: Fashionista coinage coverage in The Chronicle of Higher Education Message-ID: The origin of the word "fashionista" was discussed on the ADS mailing list in May 2013. Now, Ben Yagoda has published a wonderfully entertaining piece on this topic: Title: Local Boy Makes Word? Author: Ben Yagoda Date: August 20, 2014 Website: Lingua Franca blog of The Chronicle of Higher Education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2014/08/20/local-boy-makes-word/ (Thanks to Barry Popik for his off-list email notification about this excellent article.) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 21 14:43:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: Fashionista coinage coverage in The Chronicle of Higher Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2014, at 4:57 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > The origin of the word "fashionista" was discussed on the ADS mailing > list in May 2013. Now, Ben Yagoda has published a wonderfully > entertaining piece on this topic: > > Title: Local Boy Makes Word? > Author: Ben Yagoda > Date: August 20, 2014 > Website: Lingua Franca blog of The Chronicle of Higher Education > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2014/08/20/local-boy-makes-word/ Nice; I'll watch for the network premiere of "The Big Lang. Theory". Ben Y.'s (seems like we need to find a Ben X. to complete our set) observation about the creeping occurrences of "fashionisto", "baristo", etc. remind me of forms like "ad feminam" and "womano a womano", discussed in these parts a few years ago. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 21 14:51:34 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:51:34 -0400 Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are likely to come into contact with stolen goods. DanG A pivot is a part of a watch, so there is a connection there. The writer is supposing that the thief will try to sell the watch to a watchmaker. GAT On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Couldn't Gentlemen of the Pivot be pawnbrokers, or policemen? Both are > likely to come into contact with stolen goods. > > DanG > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:24 PM, David Daniel > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: David Daniel > > Subject: Re: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Gentlemen of the Pivot are watchmakers? Bizarre, not a single hit on > > Google. > > DAD > > > > > > Poster: George Thompson > > Subject: Gentlemen of the Pivot > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > > > Here is a circumlocution for "watchmaker", from 1771: > > > > LENT by, or stolen from Isaac Heron, Watch-maker, about two > > Months ago, a Silver-cased Watch, with Silver Face, nam'd H. Clay, > London, > > 3630. If lent, -- 'twas not forever; and if stolen, -- may the Thief be > > detected! or, Compunction rend his guilty Heart, 'till he restore it. > > > > The Gentlemen of the Pivot, in whose way it may come, are > > requested to have an Eye to the above Name and Number. The Person who > > takes it up, or gives Intelligence of it, shall be gratefully rewarded > > by Isaac > > Heron. > > > > New-York Gazette; and the Weekly Mercury, August 19, 1771, > > supplement, p. 1, col. 2 > > I've not encountered this elsewhere, and it seems not in the OED. > > > > GAT > > > > -- > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 15:59:37 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:59:37 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? I can't get any results from http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with delimited dates, etc. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 17:17:45 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:17:45 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <1244323992af49948788e030094597fe@UGUNHPTO.easf.csd.disa.mil> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE This: http://news.google.com/newspapers turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's no obvious way to limit by date. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? > > I can't get any results from=20 > http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? > > Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with > delimit= ed dates, etc. > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 17:31:48 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:31:48 -0400 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408211717.s7LFrBUR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bill: For unknown reasons Google destroyed the search capability with date-restrictions for the Google Newspaper Archive (GNA) some months ago. In my experiences GNA searches with date-restrictions had always been defective, because of "false negatives". Yet, these searches were still useful. It is still possible to search the Google Newspaper Archive by adding a site-restriction to a standard Google search. Here is a comment from the Google News Archive Search help https://support.google.com/news/answer/1638638?hl=en&rd=1 [Begin excerpt] To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms you?d like to use. For example, if you?re searching for a scanned article on the Berlin wall, you would type in: site:google.com/newspapers "the Berlin wall" [End excerpt] On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > This: > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's no obv= > ious way to limit by date. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) >> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) >>=20 >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" >> >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >>=20 >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >>=20 >> Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? >>=20 >> I can't get any results from=3D20 >> http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? >>=20 >> Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with >> delimit=3D ed dates, etc. >>=20 >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> Caveats: NONE >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 19:06:43 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:06:43 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408210303.s7L1MM3X019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been told by residents of the place, including my son for a few years, that Piqua, OH, is pronounced "Pickway." Herb On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 11:03 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/20/2014 07:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >In this thread from many years ago I noted that Matthew Arnold formally > >rhymed "Lusitania" with "I say" back in 1879. > > > >Here's another, if less formal example of the same principal. > > > >Fiddlin' John Carson and His Virgina Reelers recorded a song about the > >Civil War called "Dixie Division" in 1924. You can very distinctly hear > >Fiddlin' John a-singin' "Georgia, Alabama, Flori-day." > > > >That's the normal "George-uh" and "Alabam-uh," Not "Georgy" or "Alabammy." > > > >Go, as they say, figger. > > Eeraye, Eeraye, ay. Well, close: > > Patsy ory ory ay > Patsy ory ory ay > Patsy ory ory ay > Working on the railroad. > > (Why the last line isn't published as "Working on the railway" I have > no idea. I'm sure around the campfires many sang it that way to > introduce a rhyme.) > > JSB. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 20:47:01 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:47:01 +0000 Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Apparently there are some people associated with newspapers who provided microfilm to Google for scanning who are upset that they don't have good access to the scans. The issue shows up in threads from this search: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topicsearchin/news/%22news$20archive%22%7Csort:relevance However, someone named "Stacie C." at Google has stated several times in the last few months that some level of functionality will be restored. So there's that. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of ADSGarson O'Toole > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Bill: For unknown reasons Google destroyed the search capability with > date-restrictions for the Google Newspaper Archive (GNA) some months > ago. In my experiences GNA searches with date-restrictions had always > been defective, because of "false negatives". Yet, these searches were > still useful. > > It is still possible to search the Google Newspaper Archive by adding a > site-restriction to a standard Google search. Here is a comment from > the Google News Archive Search help > > https://support.google.com/news/answer/1638638?hl=3Den&rd=3D1 > > [Begin excerpt] > To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and > type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms > you=E2=80=99d like to use. For example, if you=E2=80=99re searching for > a s= canned article on the Berlin wall, you would type in: > > site:google.com/newspapers "the Berlin wall" > > [End excerpt] > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > -----------------= > ------ > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > > > Subject: Re: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > ---= > ------ > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > This: > > > > http://news.google.com/newspapers > > > > turns out to be a direct link to the newspaper archives, but there's > > no o= > bv=3D > > ious way to limit by date. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > >>Behalf Of MULLINS, WILLIAM D (Bill) CIV (US) > >> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:00 AM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > >>=3D20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>--------------- > >> -------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" > >> > >> Subject: google news archive (UNCLASSIFIED) > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>- > >> -------- > >>=3D20 > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> Caveats: NONE > >>=3D20 > >> Is Google News Archive officially shot to hell now? > >>=3D20 > >> I can't get any results from=3D3D20 > >> http://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search? > >>=3D20 > >> Which used to open up a link that would allow archive searches with > >>delimit=3D3D ed dates, etc. > >>=3D20 > >> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> Caveats: NONE > >>=3D20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 21:00:18 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:00:18 -0400 Subject: I say "Lusitan-i-ay" In-Reply-To: <201408211906.s7LI1wTT019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > Piqua, OH, is pronounced "Pickway." The late Harvey Fuqua, who sang lead with The Moonglows on the well-known R&B oldie, "Sincerely," pronounced his name as "Fewqway." Somewhere, back in the '40's, I read a description of pig-Latin in which "-a" was used in place of the "-ay" that I expected on the basis of having heard it on the playground. Since this was the only written - hence, canonical, of course - version of p-L that I'd ever seen, for years, I thought that I was somehow mishearing the "-a" as "-ay." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 21 21:18:18 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:18:18 -0400 Subject: Fwd: RE: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) Message-ID: Compliments to Jim, and the benefits of cross-fertilization: JSB >From: [an OED editor] >To: "Joel S. Berson" >Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:43:49 -0400 >Subject: RE: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) > >This is a fantastic find; thank you so much for passing it on! Not >only is it an antedating, but the entry previously lacked contextual >evidence for this sense (I agree with your interpretation of 1806). > >I've put the quotation in the revision file for this entry, so that >it can be integrated at revision. > >Best wishes, >[name] > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joel S. Berson >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 10:00 AM >To: [OED editor] >Subject: "Sun-glass", 1817; antedates OED2 sense (b) > >I wonder some'optician did not think it a good speculation to >construct Sunglasses for the observation of the late eclipse. Mr. >Benjamin Martin did so for that of 1764,--the beautiful >annular eclipse; and the sale even then was great. His was a dense >red Sun-glass, set as in the centre of a backgammon-man, of about >half-a-crown diameter. But they might be variously fitted >up---with dark green glass, to give a pale green image; strong >yellow for a light yellow; deep violet for a purple; deep violet and >dark green combined, for a pure white image. > >1817 Jan. 1. The Monthly Magazine: Or, British Register. Vol. >XLII. Part II for 1816 (Vol. 42, No. 6). Page 499/2. > >"sun-glass" antedates OED2 sense (b) "a shade-glass". The 1804 >quotation is for (a) "a burning glass"; the 1806 quotation is >ambiguous out of context, but I think an "Indian" with Lewis and >Clark would have prized a burning glass. > >Discovered by Jim Chevallier. > >Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 21 21:32:02 2014 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 21:32:02 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212047.s7LJvXHh019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we might say, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I hadn't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves vs. Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an easily-caught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton." The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other reference works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Thu Aug 21 21:35:03 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 21:35:03 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I always understood it as follows: In old grocery stores, canned goods would be on shelves that reached higher than the grocer could reach. He'd use a stick with a hook to pull a can of corn off an 8 foot high shelf, and it would drop into his hands for an easy catch. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Charles C Doyle > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 4:32 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "can of corn" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: "can of corn" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might s= ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, > though I had= n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the > Atlanta Braves vs= . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray > remarked, about an easily-c= aught high fly ball to center field, > "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton."= =0A= =0A= The expression is > absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other refere= nce works, > presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . = =0A= > =0A= Charlie= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 21:59:50 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:59:50 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212132.s7LJvXTf019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list members. http://books.google.com/books?id=ceeU7xSLw5kC&q=%22can+o+corn%22+#v=snippet& Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) veracity. Title: Origin of baseball term ?can of corn? Date: May 2, 2008 http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations of unknown (to me) veracity. http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18322 Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) [Begin excerpt] can of corn (baseball term) Post by Ken Greenwald Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give definitive answers around here. (<:) CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated with the grocer?s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he?d simply tip it forward with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his waiting hands. (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] can of corn (baseball term) Post by Ken Greenwald Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm Gentlemen, Here?s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer had to say: Monday, July 30, 2001 Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." [End excerpt] On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we might s= > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I had= > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves vs= > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an easily-c= > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ Upton."= > =0A= > =0A= > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other refere= > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . . = > =0A= > =0A= > Charlie= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 21 23:48:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:48:19 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212159.s7LJvXYl019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: See HDAS I, p. 358. I have heard it only in reference to baseball. Used by whom in 1896? JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= > nippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity= > . > > Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of > co= > rn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it > forwa= > rd > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. > > (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) > [End excerpt] > > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm > Gentlemen, Here=E2=80=99s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle > Post-Intelligencer had to say: > > Monday, July 30, 2001 > Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' > > Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred > to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? > > AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received > here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A > couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive > "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, > first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a > grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, > then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible > source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." > [End excerpt] > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -----------------= > ------ > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles C Doyle > > Subject: "can of corn" > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------ > > > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might= > s=3D > > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I > h= > ad=3D > > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves > = > vs=3D > > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an > easily= > -c=3D > > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ > Upton."= > =3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other > refe= > re=3D > > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . > = > . =3D > > =3D0A=3D > > =3D0A=3D > > Charlie=3D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 22 01:22:29 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:22:29 +0000 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016BF484@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: What an excellent guide! I would just add two points. 1. Be suspicious of datings in databases, especially if they seem too good to be true. Always try to confirm datings with a date in an image of the original document. 2. Dictionaries can be source documents in their own right, if they are dictionaries that the OED editors have not seen. You can be sure that the OED editors are familiar with, say, any Merriam - Webster publication. But a specialized industry glossary might be a valuable contribution. John Baker > On Aug 18, 2014, at 11:13 AM, "Mullins, Bill CIV (US)" wrote: > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Good article! > > Some specific comments . . . > >> you probably should NOT search for > > >> * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are >> to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. > > UNLESS you have access to a specialized database or corpora that may contain that rare word. "Rare" is a relative term, and what's rare in common usage may not be so within a particular jargon. > >> * Extremely new entries. > Same comment applies; a word that is new in general usage may be older (and antedateable) in a particular jargon. > >> To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already >> found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for >> "antedating"): >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l > > You might also suggest Barry Popik's website: > http://www.barrypopik.com/ > > > You don't specifically address the vagaries of OCR. One of my ongoing projects is researching Houdini before he became a big star, ca. 1898 or so. Probably half of the references I've found for him pre-1898 were not from searching for the string "Houdini", but for variants: Hondini, Houdlni, Houdinl, Houdmi, Hoadini, hloudini, etc., etc. It's probably difficult for a beginning antedator to deal with the issue; the ability to successfully guess how OCR software and microfilm can screw up a word may be as much art as science. But students should be aware of the issue, if only so that they know that a negative search result DOES NOT mean that the word didn't exist in the range searched. Depending on the database, I'd guess that half or more citations are missed because the printed word is not accurately reflected in the digital text that is searched. > > This article: > http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2014/may/01/scanner-ebook-arms-anus-optical-character-recognition > would drive the point home in a memorable way. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Beth Young >> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:26 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beth Young >> Subject: Re: an antedating "how to"? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Thanks to everyone who commented on my earlier message asking about a >> how-to antedating guide. In case anyone is interested, I've put >> together a brief guide based on those comments and pasted plain text of >> it below. It remains to be seen whether my students will try it out. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Beth Young >> >> >> ****Antedating the OED: A How-To Guide**** >> >> >> Antedating an OED entry probably won't appeal to everyone, but a few of >> you might enjoy the challenge. You might enjoy it even more if you work >> in groups. >> >> This activity will help you better understand the kind of crowdsourcing >> that made the OED possible, as well as what's involved in >> lexicographical research generally. Also, this activity has a real- >> world application--it will let you contribute to the OED, one of the >> greatest language resources in the English language. >> >> You definitely don't need to be an expert linguist to antedate words! >> Here is an account of how Nathaniel Sharpe, a 22-year-old amateur >> genealogist from a small town in North Dakota near the border with >> Canada, was able to antedate the term scalawag: >> http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/03/10/the-original- >> scalawag/fuFLccvsn4b1T6t18WFvxL/story.html >> >> >> >> ***Choose which word(s) to look for: >> >> You can only antedate words that the OED already contains. Some words >> will be easier to antedate than others. Think carefully about the >> evidence available to you and the likelihood that the OED >> lexicographers have already searched that evidence. For example, you >> probably should NOT search for >> >> * Extremely old words. If the earliest illustrative OED quotation dates >> from the OE period, you would need to find evidence of the word used in >> an even earlier manuscript. How many OE manuscripts do you have lying >> around that the OED lexicographers don't already know about? (Zero.) >> >> * Extremely rare words. The more rare the word, the less likely you are >> to find it used at all, much less to antedate the OED records. >> >> * Extremely new entries. If the OED lexicographers have just finished >> updating the entry for your word, that means they have recently >> searched intensively through various online databases. Unless you're >> planning to search in places that they don't know about, you probably >> won't have any antedating luck. (Though at least one expert says that >> it can be easier to antedate the newer entries, because their sources >> are useful clues to where they have searched, so you can figure out >> where else to look.) >> >> Instead, try looking for >> >> * words where the first illustrative quotations date from 1800-1923 >> * words for which entries were written before 1990 (i.e., before the >> Internet) >> * words that relate to specialized databases you can access (see below) >> * words that the OED has appealed to readers to help locate: >> http://public.oed.com/appeals/ >> >> To get an idea of the sorts of antedatings researchers have already >> found, check the archives of the ADS-L listserv (search for >> "antedating"): >> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l >> >> >> >> ***Decide where/how to search: >> >> Look through the illustrative quotations the OED provides for the >> word/sense you're looking for. The date of the earliest quotation >> should be the end of your search window. >> >> The beginning of your search window should be a date that is plausible. >> For example, if you're trying to antedate an automobile-related word, >> you don't need to search earlier than the date the automobile was >> invented. You may find that your search window is constrained by the >> database you're searching. >> >> Consider looking for an online archive related to your word's topic. >> For example, if your word relates to hot air ballooning, maybe there is >> an archive of back issues of Ballooning Magazine. (I don't know that >> there is--this is just an example.) >> >> Watch for signs that a writer thought the word or expression was >> particularly clever or up-to-date, such as setting it off with >> quotation marks or italics, or introducing it by saying something like, >> "as the boys say" or "to use a Kentucky expression" (KY having once >> been a wild frontier). Unfortunately, typographical tricks can't be >> entered into a search engine, but they can help you find antedatings in >> texts you're reading for another purpose. >> >> Don't search where you know that the OED lexicographers have already >> searched. If the OED's earliest illustrative quotation comes from Punch >> magazine, it's likely that there aren't any earlier citations in Punch >> magazine or the lexicographers would have found them. >> >> Additional information on search strategies: >> >> http://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/2599-how-to-search- >> for-an-origin >> (this one relates to memes, but it is also helpful for searching newer >> words) >> >> http://www.hackcollege.com/blog/2011/11/23/infographic-get-more-out-of- >> google.html >> (google tips and tricks) >> >> >> Some online databases to search in: >> >> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2701/what-are-some-good- >> sites-for-researching-etymology/47167#47167 >> a list of sites for researching etymology; >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/fulltextdatabases/ Bill Mullins' giant >> list of publicly accessible full-text databases >> >> Resources: see the class links on etymology, which can help you figure >> out which avenues are probably not worth exploring >> >> UCF Special Collections: An overview guide is here: >> http://guides.ucf.edu/content.php?pid=216587 A UCF librarian >> recommended two tabs from that overview guide: University Archives >> (which contains the Central Florida Future archive, which has >> searchable .pdfs), and Central Florida Memory (which has a selection of >> some old local Florida papers). >> Also, the library's guide to News & Newspapers ( >> http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78313&p=514410#977599 ) links to any full >> content the library provides either through subscription or Open >> Access--you might especially be interested in the Florida Historical >> Newspaper section. (I find these sites to be a tad confusing, but >> maybe that means the OED lexicographers won't have bothered to search >> them!) >> >> Databases that UCF subscribes to: Click UCF Library Tools in the left >> toolbar, then choose a likely database. Databases that might be useful >> include: American Periodical Series; British Periodicals; >> Congressional Serial Set, Google Books, Eighteenth Century Collections >> Online, Early American Imprints, Early English Books Online, Florida >> Heritage, Florida Historical Legal Documents, HarpWeek, JSTOR, Latino >> Literature 1850- , LexisNexis Academic, National Geographic, Nineteenth >> Century Collections Online, New York Times, Historical - ProQuest, >> Sabin Americana Digital Archive, Vogue Archive, Women Writers Project. >> >> Your public library back home might also have useful databases (e.g., >> ProQuest Historical Newspapers, America's Historical Newspapers, >> NewspaperArchive, Newspapers.com, GenealogyBank, British Newspapers >> 1600-1950) >> >> If you subscribe to any newspapers or magazines, you might be able to >> access full-text online archives of past issues. >> >> >> >> ***Know what evidence you need: >> >> The OED needs primary sources only: verifiable evidence that the word >> was used on a particular date. In practice, this means only precisely >> dated citations, verified from original print sources or reliable >> facsimile images. (Here is a UCF library guide to primary sources: >> http://guides.ucf.edu/c.php?g=78169&p=507879) >> >> Things students have submitted in the past that do NOT count: >> >> * Entries from another dictionary. Maybe the Merriam-Webster Dictionary >> says the word dates from 1907, earlier than the first illustrative >> quotation in the OED. I'm sure the MWD has evidence for its date, but >> unless you have the same evidence (a citation that is dated 1907, >> verifiable from the original print source or a reliable facsimile), it >> doesn't count. >> >> * Entries from a different sense of the word in the OED. Maybe you >> think a particular quotation illustrates sense 2a better than sense 2c, >> but the OED doesn't think so. Find evidence that the OED lexicographers >> haven't seen, not evidence that you think they have mischaracterized. >> >> * Articles that describe earlier usages. Journalists love to run >> articles claiming various origins for a given word or expression. But >> the unsupported claim of a 21st century journalist means little--you >> need to find the primary source, the word actually in use on the >> earlier date. An article from 1998 that claims a word was coined in >> 1898 doesn't count. >> >> * Entries where the word does not appear. Maybe you can type the words >> "Sam Browne" into a search engine and get some great images of a "Sam >> Browne belt," but unless the images themselves contain the words "Sam >> Browne," >> that doesn't count. (After all, it probably was a modern editor who >> attached the keywords "Sam Browne" to that image.) If you're looking >> for the expression "Sam Browne belt," you need to find that expression >> in use. >> >> What does count? Primary source evidence, verifiable from the original >> print source or a reliable facsimile, that the word was used on a >> particular date. >> >> In particular, you need all the information required by the OED >> submission form, plus a quotation long enough to show how the word is >> being used: >> http://global.oup.com/uk/oedsubform/ >> >> The OED prefers evidence drawn from print publications because it is >> more stable and therefore more easily re-traceable in the future. >> >> For more information about what the OED accepts, see here: >> http://public.oed.com/the-oed-%20today/contribute-to-the-oed/ >> >> Also see the FAQs about contributions here: >> http://public.oed.com/about/frequently-asked-%20questions/#contribute >> >> >> >> ***Take good notes! >> >> Keep track of what you search for, where you search, how you searched, >> and why. I will consider awarding points for detailed accounts of high- >> quality searches even if they do not result in successful antedatings. >> >> >> >> >> >> Many thanks to Fred Shapiro, Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Bonnie >> Taylor-Blake, W. Brewer, Gerald Cohen, Hugo, Clai Rice, George >> Thompson, Dan Goncharoff, Katherine Martin, Damien Hall, and all the >> ADS-L members who helped me compile this how-to. >> >> >>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Beth Young wrote: >>> >>> Has anyone written an antedating "how to" guide? >>> >>> Last year, as an experiment, I offered extra credit to students who >>> tried to antedate a word in the OED. I knew that the task wouldn't >>> appeal to every student, but I figured that there might be one or two >>> who would enjoy the challenge. I thought that the activity would help >>> students better understand what's involved in this sort of research, >>> and I wanted to give them an opportunity to do research with >> potential real-world application. >>> >>> The activity did not succeed, for a variety of reasons. My better >>> students chose not to try it. My weaker students did try it, but they >>> tended to provide "evidence" like an entry from another dictionary >>> ("Merriam-Webster says the word dates from 1915"), a quotation from >>> the OED itself ("OED says it means X but I think it really means Y") >>> or a 21st century magazine article that makes claims about how a word >> originated centuries earlier. >>> >>> One student commented that she had picked the "easiest" words to >>> antedate but still had no luck; turns out that she thought the >> easiest >>> words would be the entries that the OED had just revised less than a >> year ago. >>> >>> A good class discussion could clear up many misconceptions, but my >>> classes are almost always scheduled online. So . . . if I keep this >>> activity (haven't decided yet), I'll need to provide more basic >>> information, such as what counts as evidence and how one might go >> about antedating a word. >>> >>> Do you know of an already written "how to" that I could share? Have >>> you tried this sort of activity with students? >>> >>> thanks, >>> >>> Beth Young >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 01:37:51 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:37:51 -0500 Subject: acetabula et calculi Message-ID: Forgive an off-topic question, but I'm betting someone on the list knows more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken, within the conjuring community, to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin, but I believe a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out how to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT, and it gives "balls". Google Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Aug 22 02:05:10 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 22:05:10 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated with the grocer?s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he?d simply tip it forward with *a rod or a broom handle* [?] so that it would tumble easily into his waiting hands." Back on Curtis street, in Meriden, Conn., in the late 1940s/early 1950s, Mr. Christian had a special tool for getting merchandise from the highest shelves. On one side of one end there was a pincher, worked by a handle at the other end; opposite the pincher was a hook. He had the option of using the hook to tip a box until it fell, or of lifting it down. I thought it was the coolest thing. As I recall, Mr. Christian had better sense than to put heavy, solid merchandise (like cans of corn) on the high shelves. I recall that they were always boxes, quite light, so if the pincher lost its grasp, or if he muffed the falling shredded wheat, he wouldn't be flattened. But perhaps if a retired baseball player had opened a grocery, he would put the heavy stuff up high, so he could show that he still had good hands. GAT On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=ceeU7xSLw5kC&q=%22can+o+corn%22+#v=snippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity. > > Title: Origin of baseball term ?can of corn? > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer?s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he?d simply tip it forward > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. > > (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) > [End excerpt] > > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm > Gentlemen, Here?s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle > Post-Intelligencer had to say: > > Monday, July 30, 2001 > Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' > > Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred > to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? > > AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received > here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A > couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive > "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, > first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a > grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, > then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible > source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." > [End excerpt] > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles C Doyle > > Subject: "can of corn" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we > might s= > > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I > had= > > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves > vs= > > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an > easily-c= > > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ > Upton."= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other > refere= > > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . > . = > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Charlie= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 03:22:18 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:22:18 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212348.s7LJvXir019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > See HDAS I, p. 358. > > I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > > Used by whom in 1896? HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught high fly ball: Newspaper: Los Angeles Times Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California Date: 1930 June 19 Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES CLASH Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds Author: Bob Ray Start Page 11 Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) Database ProQuest [Begin except] Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which makes it a big seven for, oh, as far as the present series is concerned. Ike came close to a hit in the third when he slashed a torrid drive to left center, but Hill galloped over in front of the ball and leaped up to turn what looked like a sure double into just a can of corn, as the baseball boys call an out. [End excerpt] The 1896 citation is in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". Google Books has three copies but all three are in No Preview mode. Amazon has a copy and Look Inside allows one to see page 99 which shows part of the entry for "can of corn". Dickson also lists the variant "can o' corn". The key citation starts with the following text. The next part of the text is printed on page 100 which I cannot see, but I doubt Dickson gives a page number: [Begin excerpt] 1st Use. 1896. (Burt L. Standish, Frank Merriwell's Schooldays . . . [End excerpt] This citation information also appears in a newspaper article online at the SeattlePI website of Seattle Washington: Title: Answer Guy: New eats, amazing factoids and more in Season 11 Author: By JOHN MARSHALL, P-I REPORTER Timestamp: Published 10:00 pm, Sunday, April 2, 2006 http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/baseball/article/Answer-Guy-New-eats-amazing-factoids-and-more-1200070.php [Begin excerpt] Q: Donald Bednarz asks, "How did the saying 'can of corn' come about and when was it first used in baseball?" AG: Why not start 2006 with a rare reprise of perhaps the most frequent question received in this column's history? According to the definitive "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary," the use of "can of corn" for an easy fly ball is widely thought to have originated back in olden days when grocers would tip a can of veggies from a top shelf in the store and then catch it, either via hands or their aprons. First published use of the term was in 1896 in "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. Standish. [End excerpt] Google Books contains some copies of Frank Merriwell's Schooldays, but they are in No Preview mode. HathiTrust has a copy of the 1901 edition in Full View mode here: [Begin HathiTrust metadata] Title: Frank Merriwell's school days / by Burt L. Standish, [pseud.]. Main Author: Standish Published: Philadelphia: David McKay, 1901. Note: Originally published in 1896., Burt L., 1866-1945. Physical Description: 302 p. : ill. [End HathiTrust metadata] http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc2.ark:/13960/t76t0jb4w I searched for "corn" in this book and there was one match on page 11. The match was irrelevant. It did not show "can of corn" or "can o' corn". I searched for variants and found nothing relevant. This HathiTrust book is the 1901 edition and not the 1896 edition. So the phrase may be in the 1896 edition. It is also possible that I did not search for the appropriate dialectical spelling in the 1901 edition. The Internet Archive has a scanned copy of the 1901 edition here: https://archive.org/stream/frankmsschoolday00staniala#page/n5/mode/2up Here is a link to the raw OCR. I searched in the raw OCR and could not find the target phrase: https://ia700409.us.archive.org/19/items/frankmsschoolday00staniala/frankmsschoolday00staniala_djvu.txt WorldCat lists an 1896 edition. So there is evidence that the 1896 edition exists, but there does not appear to be an accessible scanned version online. [Begin WorldCat metadata] Title: Frank Merriwell's schooldays; A tale of school life at Fardale Academy. Author: Burt L Standish Publisher: New York, Street & Smith [1896] Series: The Merriwell series, no. 1 [End WorldCat metadata] Summary, the 1930 cite is interesting. At this point, I haven't been able to precisely locate the 1896 cite. Garson On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > See HDAS I, p. 358. > > I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > > Used by whom in 1896? > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google >> Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson >> (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list >> members. >> >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= >> nippet& >> >> Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) >> veracity= >> . >> >> Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D >> Date: May 2, 2008 >> http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html >> >> Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations >> of unknown (to me) veracity. >> >> http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 >> >> >> Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> can of corn (baseball term) >> >> Post by Ken Greenwald >> Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am >> >> Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give >> definitive answers around here. (<:) >> >> CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated >> with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of >> co= >> rn >> on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it >> forwa= >> rd >> with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his >> waiting hands. >> >> (The Language of Sport by Tim Considine) >> [End excerpt] >> >> >> [Begin excerpt] >> can of corn (baseball term) >> >> Post by Ken Greenwald >> Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:10 pm >> Gentlemen, Here=E2=80=99s what the 'Answer Guy' from the Seattle >> Post-Intelligencer had to say: >> >> Monday, July 30, 2001 >> Answer Guy: Getting inside a 'CAN OF CORN' >> >> Q: Ever since I was a little kid, I've heard a lazy fly ball referred >> to as a "can of corn." Where did this odd little phrase originate? >> >> AG: The origin of "can of corn" is the most-repeated question received >> here. Although it was answered a few seasons ago, here it is again. A >> couple of possible sources of the phrase are cited in the definitive >> "New Dickson Baseball Dictionary." The most accepted: The phrase, >> first used in 1896, makes reference to a long-ago practice where a >> grocer would use a stick to tip a can of vegetables off a high shelf, >> then catch it in his hands or outstretched apron. Another possible >> source: Such a pop fly is as easy to capture as "corn from a can." >> [End excerpt] >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> -----------------= >> ------ >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Charles C Doyle >> > Subject: "can of corn" >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> ------ >> > >> > The expression "can of corn" in the sense of 'easy task' (or, as we >> might= >> s=3D >> > ay, "piece of cake") has been familiar to me for some decades, though I >> h= >> ad=3D >> > n't heard it in a while till last night's telecast of the Atlanta Braves >> = >> vs=3D >> > . Pittsburgh Pirates baseball game. Chip Caray remarked, about an >> easily= >> -c=3D >> > aught high fly ball to center field, "That's a can of corn for BJ >> Upton."= >> =3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > The expression is absent from HDAS. (I lack access to DARE and other >> refe= >> re=3D >> > nce works, presently.) I wonder what the image originally imported . . . >> = >> . =3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > =3D0A=3D >> > Charlie=3D >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 03:33:33 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:33:33 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/21/2014 10:05 PM, George Thompson wrote: >"CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated >with the grocer???s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of corn >on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he???d simply tip it forward >with *a rod or a broom handle* [?] so that it would tumble easily into his >waiting hands." > >Back on Curtis street, in Meriden, Conn., in the late 1940s/early 1950s, >Mr. Christian had a special tool for getting merchandise from the highest >shelves. I thought everyone did. I even think it had a name, but I forget. "Grocer's "? >On one side of one end there was a pincher, worked by a handle at >the other end; opposite the pincher was a hook. The device probably looked something like this, apart from the hook -- Unger 92134 36-Inch Nifty Nabber http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unger-36-In-Nifty-Nabber-92134D/203177379 But that's not the name I remember. >He had the option of using >the hook to tip a box until it fell, or of lifting it down. I thought it >was the coolest thing. Me too. >As I recall, Mr. Christian had better sense than to >put heavy, solid merchandise (like cans of corn) on the high shelves. I >recall that they were always boxes, quite light, so if the pincher lost its >grasp, or if he muffed the falling shredded wheat, he wouldn't be flattened. >But perhaps if a retired baseball player had opened a grocery, he would put >the heavy stuff up high, so he could show that he still had good hands. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 22 03:40:31 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:40:31 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> See HDAS I, p. 358. >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. >> >> Used by whom in 1896? > > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > high fly ball: > > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > Date: 1930 June 19 > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES CLASH > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > Author: Bob Ray > Start Page 11 > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > Database ProQuest > > [Begin except] > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > makes it a big seven for, oh, > as far as the present series is > concerned. wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for 7" > [?] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at CABLEMO.NET Fri Aug 22 04:55:28 2014 From: dwhause at CABLEMO.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:55:28 -0500 Subject: acetabula et calculi Message-ID: Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for one thrown by a ballista. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mullins" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: acetabula et calculi Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 04:05:09 2014 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:05:09 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <201408220137.s7M0U40H019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought it was acetabuli (small cups) and calculi (small stones), but I could be wrong. On Aug 21, 2014 9:37 PM, "Bill Mullins" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bill Mullins > Subject: acetabula et calculi > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows > = > more about this than I do. > "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring > community= > =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference > = > in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I > believ= > e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". > So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out > h= > ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 > "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". > Goog= > le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". > Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? > = > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 05:35:21 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:35:21 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <201408220405.s7M0U4QF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I thought it was acetabuli (small cups) and calculi (small stones), but I > could be wrong. > Then we both are, The Gonch! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Aug 22 11:26:02 2014 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:26:02 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <85DD1CF7A647425B84F019733BB544E0@hausemobile> Message-ID: "Calculus" is a pebble or small stone, such as one used in counting (hence the English word) or as a piece in a game like checkers. It is a good choice for this context. "Acetabula et calculi" is a legitimate translation of the name of the magic trick. "Pila" is ball, such as that you play with, so "acetabula et pilae" also works. I don't know what's up with Google Translate. It handles the singular "ball" okay. The nominative plural of pila is "pilae," of calculus is "calculi." "Lapis" is either a rock, a milestone, or a precious stone, so it's probably not the right choice for this context. "Lapides" would be the nominative plural. "Sphera" or "spherae" in the plural, is another option. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Hause Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 12:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: acetabula et calculi Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for one thrown by a ballista. Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Mullins" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: acetabula et calculi Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = more about this than I do. "Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= =2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 "et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:09:46 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:09:46 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408220340.s7M0U49P019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Re: "Burt L. Standish" I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore in the '70s. Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized and heavily Christianized too. The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything earlier. Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed "neat" (as we used to say). JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> See HDAS I, p. 358. > >>=20 > >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > >>=20 > >> Used by whom in 1896? > >=20 > > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > > high fly ball: > >=20 > > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > > Date: 1930 June 19 > > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = > CLASH > > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > > Author: Bob Ray > > Start Page 11 > > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > > Database ProQuest > >=20 > > [Begin except] > > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > > makes it a big seven for, oh, > > > as far as the present series is > > concerned. > > > wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = > 7" > > > [=85] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:19:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:19:12 -0400 Subject: moneymaker Message-ID: Every reader of HDAS knows by now which bodily parts of "female sex workers" this originally referred to. Now it means your face. CNN: "Protect the moneymaker!" (Advice for when you're staring at a foul ball heading your way.) But maybe it only means your face if you're a TV personality. In that case, OK. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:19:41 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:19:41 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221209.s7MADrmR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It appears that Paul Dickson removed the 1896 citation for "can of corn" from his reference work in the recent revised edition printed in 2011. The 1896 citation for "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. Standish is present in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". This edition was released in 1999 by Harcourt Brace & Company of New York. The 1896 citation is absent from "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary, Third Edition, The Revised, Expanded, and Now-Definitive Work on the Language of Baseball" printed in 2011 from W.W. Norton & Company of New York. The publication notes list three copyrights in 1988, 1999, and 2009. The publication notes list "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary" as a previous edition. It is possible that Paul Dickson determined that the 1896 citation was faulty and deliberately removed it. I have been unable to find "can of corn" in the 1901 edition of "Frank Merriwell's School Days" by Burt L. Standish (pseudonym). I haven't examined the 1896 edition. JL noted the problem of modernized editions. The 2011 edition of Dickson's reference gives a 1930 citation for "can of corn" with a baseball player catching a "torrid drive". I gave the details for this LA Times cite in a previous message. Here is a 1932 citation that is closer to the common modern meaning. The newspaper article discussed a young baseball lexicographer who was collecting colorful words and phrases used in game. A sampling from the embryonic dictionary was reprinted: Date: November 30, 1932 Newspaper: Greensboro Daily News Newspaper Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Title: Young First Sacker of Chicago Club Collects Unusual Diamond Expressions Quote Page: 4, Column: 5 Database: GenealogyBank [Begin excerpt] Banana stalk - a bat with poor wood in it. Can of corn - a high, lazy fly ball. Rubber bat - bat used by player who gets a lot of fluke hits. [End excerpt] Garson On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Re: "Burt L. Standish" > > I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore > in the '70s. > > Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was > still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > > My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > > Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > > A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > > Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > > You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > and heavily Christianized too. > > The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same > 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > earlier. > > Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > "neat" (as we used to say). > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: >> >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> See HDAS I, p. 358. >> >>=20 >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. >> >>=20 >> >> Used by whom in 1896? >> >=20 >> > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third >> > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los >> > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from >> > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught >> > high fly ball: >> >=20 >> > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times >> > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California >> > Date: 1930 June 19 >> > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = >> CLASH >> > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds >> > Author: Bob Ray >> > Start Page 11 >> > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) >> > Database ProQuest >> >=20 >> > [Begin except] >> > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which >> > makes it a big seven for, oh, >> >> > as far as the present series is >> > concerned. >> >> >> wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = >> 7" >> >> > [=85] >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:47:57 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:47:57 -0400 Subject: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by another man of the same name In-Reply-To: <201408191243.s7JBwV8H019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just last night we watched a TV documentary (on "American Heroes Channel") arguing that Christopher Columbus was actually a different man with the same name. JL On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 8:43 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An entry on this topic is now available on the QI website. The > acknowledgement mentions Stephen Goranson, JL, and other discussion > participants. > > The Plays of Shakespeare Were Not Written by Shakespeare but by > Another Man of the Same Name > http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/19/same-name/ > > Feedback welcome. Thanks, > Garson > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Stephen Goranson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Stephen Goranson > > Subject: Re: Quote family: The works Shakespeare were not written by > > Shakspeare but by another man of the same name > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Interesting! Here's an apparent use in 1860:=0A= > > "This [argument about a planet discovery] rivals the new discovery about > Sh= > > akespeare--that the well know plays and poems were not by William > Shakespea= > > re, but by another person of the same name!"=0A= > > The Spectator, January 14, 1860 p. 38 col. 1 GoogleB=0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DQi8_AQAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA38&dq=3D%22but+by+an= > > > other+*+of+the+same+name%22&hl=3Den&sa=3DX&ei=3DscfwU-CGLciI8gH3xoGYDA&ved= > > > =3D0CCIQuwUwATgK#v=3Donepage&q=3D%22but%20by%20another%20*%20of%20the%20sam= > > e%20name%22&f=3Dfalse=0A= > > =0A= > > Stephen Goranson=0A= > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/=0A= > > =0A= > > ________________=0A= > > =0A= > > =0A= > > Garson:=0A= > > =0A= > > Jonathan Lighter wrote:=0A= > >> "Shakespeare" means many things besides "wanker." That's why=0A= > >> his works are acclaimed. (Or, as seems likely, works written by=0A= > >> someone else of the same name.)=0A= > > =0A= > > JL alludes to an old joke that has been applied to Homer and=0A= > > Shakespeare. Here are two exemplars:=0A= > > =0A= > > 1) The Homeric Poems were not written by Homer, but by another person=0A= > > of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > 2) The plays of Shakespeare were not written by Shakspeare but by=0A= > > another man of the same name.=0A= > > =0A= > > I was asked to explore the history of this family of quips which has=0A= > > been connected to Mark Twain, G. K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Israel=0A= > > Zangwill, Jerome K. Jerome, Aldous Huxley and others.=0A= > > =0A= > > Here are the earliest citations I've found at this point.=0A= > > =0A= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 12:58:51 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 08:58:51 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221219.s7MADroZ019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, 1932 is well within the bounds of ordinary usage. Sometimes the height of the pop-up and sometimes the ease of the catch appear to be emphasized, but it amounts to the same thing. If the height of the ball and its vertical descent are salient, the grocery-store etymology may well be correct, if somewhat arcane. I heard a classmate use the more general sense ("easy task") once, about 1974. That wasn't enough to get it into HDAS. Moreover, he was clearly using it metaphorically: Me: "This should be easy." He: "Can of corn?" Me: "Huh?" He: "You know. When a fielder catches a pop-up, it's a 'can of corn.'" Me: "Oh." So language grows. He's a particle physicist now. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It appears that Paul Dickson removed the 1896 citation for "can of > corn" from his reference work in the recent revised edition printed in > 2011. > > The 1896 citation for "Frank Merriwell's Schooldays" by Burt L. > Standish is present in "The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary". This > edition was released in 1999 by Harcourt Brace & Company of New York. > > The 1896 citation is absent from "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary, > Third Edition, The Revised, Expanded, and Now-Definitive Work on the > Language of Baseball" printed in 2011 from W.W. Norton & Company of > New York. The publication notes list three copyrights in 1988, 1999, > and 2009. The publication notes list "The New Dickson Baseball > Dictionary" as a previous edition. > > It is possible that Paul Dickson determined that the 1896 citation was > faulty and deliberately removed it. I have been unable to find "can of > corn" in the 1901 edition of "Frank Merriwell's School Days" by Burt > L. Standish (pseudonym). I haven't examined the 1896 edition. JL noted > the problem of modernized editions. > > The 2011 edition of Dickson's reference gives a 1930 citation for "can > of corn" with a baseball player catching a "torrid drive". I gave the > details for this LA Times cite in a previous message. > > Here is a 1932 citation that is closer to the common modern meaning. > The newspaper article discussed a young baseball lexicographer who was > collecting colorful words and phrases used in game. A sampling from > the embryonic dictionary was reprinted: > > Date: November 30, 1932 > Newspaper: Greensboro Daily News > Newspaper Location: Greensboro, North Carolina > Title: Young First Sacker of Chicago Club Collects Unusual Diamond > Expressions > Quote Page: 4, Column: 5 > Database: GenealogyBank > > [Begin excerpt] > Banana stalk - a bat with poor wood in it. > Can of corn - a high, lazy fly ball. > Rubber bat - bat used by player who gets a lot of fluke hits. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Re: "Burt L. Standish" > > > > I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used > bookstore > > in the '70s. > > > > Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it > was > > still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > > > > My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > > to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > > > > Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > > > > A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > > grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > > > > Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > > > > You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > > and heavily Christianized too. > > > > The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the > same > > 1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > > earlier. > > > > Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > > "neat" (as we used to say). > > > > JL > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn > > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "can of corn" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Aug 21, 2014, at 11:22 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > >> > >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> See HDAS I, p. 358. > >> >>=20 > >> >> I have heard it only in reference to baseball. > >> >>=20 > >> >> Used by whom in 1896? > >> >=20 > >> > HDAS has a 1937 citation. "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary (Third > >> > Edition)" lists a 1930 first use citation for "can of corn" in the Los > >> > Angeles Times. Here is the metadata and an extended excerpt from > >> > ProQuest. This instance does not really correspond to an easily caught > >> > high fly ball: > >> >=20 > >> > Newspaper: Los Angeles Times > >> > Newspaper location: Los Angeles, California > >> > Date: 1930 June 19 > >> > Title: Hill Shines as Hollywood Wins, 6 to 4: RUMLER'S POKE SETTLES = > >> CLASH > >> > Continuation title: Sheiks Thump Mission Reds > >> > Author: Bob Ray > >> > Start Page 11 > >> > Quote Page 13, Column 4 (continuation page number listed in article) > >> > Database ProQuest > >> >=20 > >> > [Begin except] > >> > Ike Boone, the league's leading hitter, again went hitless, which > >> > makes it a big seven for, oh, > >> > >> > as far as the present series is > >> > concerned. > >> > >> > >> wonder when "go 7 for 0" (in the game, or series) changed to "go 0 for = > >> 7" > >> > >> > [=85] > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 14:17:31 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:17:31 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Re: "Burt L. Standish" > >I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore >in the '70s. > >Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was >still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > >My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo >to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > >Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > >A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in >grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > >Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > >You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized >and heavily Christianized too. > >The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same >1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything >earlier. > >Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed >"neat" (as we used to say). The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 22 14:26:24 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:26:24 -0400 Subject: acetabula et calculi In-Reply-To: <85DD1CF7A647425B84F019733BB544E0@hausemobile> Message-ID: William Douglass once opprobriated Zabdiel Boylston as "Ulcocalculus". In 18th century Boston everyone would have known why. I had to consult an email list for a translation of the Latin, and histories for the second connection to Boylston. Joel At 8/22/2014 12:55 AM, Dave Hause wrote: >Calculi comes straight into English through medicine - stones. My >Latin-English dictionary says "pila" for a ball to play with, "lapis" for >one thrown by a ballista. >Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net >Waynesville, MO >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Mullins" >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:37 PM >Subject: acetabula et calculi > > >Forgive an off-topic question=2C but I'm betting someone on the list knows = >more about this than I do. >"Acetabula et calculi" is generally taken=2C within the conjuring community= >=2C to be Latin for the classic routine "cups and balls" (from a reference = >in the writings of Seneca). I don't speak/read/write Latin=2C but I believ= >e a more literal translation would be "cups and dice". >So I stick "cups and balls" into Google translate in hopes of finding out h= >ow to say "cups and balls" in Latin. It spits out=20 >"et cyathos balls". I stick "balls" into GT=2C and it gives "balls". Goog= >le Translate believes that "balls" is Latin for "balls". >Surely this isn't correct. What is the Latin word for "balls"? = > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 14:56:33 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:56:33 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: <201408221417.s7MECSqr019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The etymology for "can of corn" that involves a reaching device used by grocers is fun and vivid, but it is also unconvincing to me. I have not seen any substantive citations to support it. Is it an etymythology? Here is a 1916 citation advertising a "Giraffe Shelf Reacher". Hence reaching devices with jaws and rubber grippers for grocers did exist before the 1930s. Date: August 1916 Title: Hardware Dealers' Magazine Volume: 46 Number: 2 Quote Page: 382 Publisher: Daniel T. Mallett at 253 Broadway, New York Database: Google Books http://bit.ly/1zc7oac http://books.google.com/books?id=Bpg7AQAAMAAJ&q=%22Giraffe+are%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Giraffe Shelf Reacher The Bridgeport Hardware Mfg Corporation, Bridgeport, Conn., are placing on the market a device which they describe as "needed in every store in the land." It is the Giraffe Shelf Reacher - no doubt so aptly named by a naturalist who has seen the neck of the animal named when in useful operation. The mission of the Reacher can be understood at a glance at the accompanying illustration. The manufacturers say: "Getting goods from the top shelf has always been a problem in stores, etc. The Giraffe is the solution. It provides a quick easy way of taking bottles, cans, lamp chimneys, bags or boxed goods from top shelves, four feet out of reach, and bringing them to the counter in an instant... [End excerpt] Garson On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Re: "Burt L. Standish" >> >>I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used bookstore >>in the '70s. >> >>Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it was >>still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. >> >>My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo >>to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. >> >>Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. >> >>A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in >>grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. >> >>Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. >> >>You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized >>and heavily Christianized too. >> >>The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the same >>1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything >>earlier. >> >>Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed >>"neat" (as we used to say). > > The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 15:26:58 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:26:58 -0400 Subject: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] In-Reply-To: <201408221456.s7MECS8j019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If the Giraffe - or something like it - first appeared around 1916, it would be well in line with a 1932 appearance of the then-novel baseball term. I can't think of an alternative origin, which means little, but use of the Giraffe was an everyday occurrence. Those shelves were high. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:56 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The etymology for "can of corn" that involves a reaching device used > by grocers is fun and vivid, but it is also unconvincing to me. I have > not seen any substantive citations to support it. Is it an > etymythology? > > Here is a 1916 citation advertising a "Giraffe Shelf Reacher". Hence > reaching devices with jaws and rubber grippers for grocers did exist > before the 1930s. > > Date: August 1916 > Title: Hardware Dealers' Magazine > Volume: 46 > Number: 2 > Quote Page: 382 > Publisher: Daniel T. Mallett at 253 Broadway, New York > Database: Google Books > > http://bit.ly/1zc7oac > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Bpg7AQAAMAAJ&q=%22Giraffe+are%22#v=snippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > Giraffe Shelf Reacher > > The Bridgeport Hardware Mfg Corporation, Bridgeport, Conn., are > placing on the market a device which they describe as "needed in every > store in the land." It is the Giraffe Shelf Reacher - no doubt so > aptly named by a naturalist who has seen the neck of the animal named > when in useful operation. The mission of the Reacher can be understood > at a glance at the accompanying illustration. The manufacturers say: > "Getting goods from the top shelf has always been a problem in stores, > etc. The Giraffe is the solution. It provides a quick easy way of > taking bottles, cans, lamp chimneys, bags or boxed goods from top > shelves, four feet out of reach, and bringing them to the counter in > an instant... > [End excerpt] > > Garson > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: grocers' poles [Was: "can of corn"] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/22/2014 08:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >>Re: "Burt L. Standish" > >> > >>I found a recent paperback copy of a Standish-Merriwell in a used > bookstore > >>in the '70s. > >> > >>Wow! It had more antedatings than any book I'd ever seen! Of course it > was > >>still set in the 1890s and had the original pub date on display. > >> > >>My naivete soon became clear. A 1960s reviser had updated the '90s lingo > >>to make it more interesting and readable for today's youth. > >> > >>Turns out the whole series of "reprints" was like that. > >> > >>A few years ago, my wife found a recent reprint of a book she'd liked in > >>grade-school, one of the "Elsie Dinsmore" series by Martha Finley. > >> > >>Same title and everything. Same setting in the nostalgic past. > >> > >>You can imagine her horror when she found it to be completely modernized > >>and heavily Christianized too. > >> > >>The various newspaper DBs I can access all cite "can of corn" from the > same > >>1937 journalistic list of baseball slang. I haven't noticed anything > >>earlier. > >> > >>Those grocers' poles with the rubber-tipped clasp at the end were indeed > >>"neat" (as we used to say). > > > > The reprint calls them "cool", and names them "Nifty Nabbers". > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Aug 22 15:54:30 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:54:30 +0000 Subject: on the fritz and friz--two spellings, and two pronunciations Message-ID: Previously I reported an example of the idiomatic phrase "on the friz" (note the spelling, with the same meaning as "on the fritz") in which "friz" rhymes with "wits." Here are two cases in which "on the friz," with the same meaning, rhymes with "is." (Both via Google Books.) 1911 March 18, Saturday Evening Post v.183. iss. 3 p. 26 ... Take a swift look at my scenery-- Ain't I the grandest there is Me - who once hashed in a beanery-- Putting the swells on the friz! .... 1913 Terence you're great! you're a whiz! You're just the grandest there is Talkin' or dancin' you're simply entrancin' ; you've put all the rest on the friz! So, in addition, for this phrase, to two spellings (fritz and friz--a fact not noted for this phrase, unless I missed it, in the dictionaries, OED June 2014 or HDAS or...), there were in circulation two pronunciations. (Association with frozen continues to, at a minimum, in my view, comport with the evidence.) In a newspaper column Merrian-Webster indicated that their earliest known use on file was the 1902 poem use "Would Santa Claus be on the fritz / if we never had snow?"--but I still do not know the publication citation (I enquired to M-W today). Santa being on the fritz (frozen?) via lack of freezing? Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ GB: http://books.google.com/books?id=FlowAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA9-PA26&dq=%22on+the+friz%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5WP3U7OcMaed8gHv9oDADg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22on%20the%20friz%22&f=false [http://books.google.com/books?id=FlowAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE73tbMDLWGYkzU_eUfBSv9Uj3UTTiC4BiY4fo6wIfp9pQ9lZbQ0u3SxKSkpprfLD_Euvt8MpoNfpepKKmlZ0-g8YFLuAAnuVTGqjYur69nNCgviPBA8] The Saturday Evening Post - Google Books Read more... http://books.google.com/books?id=yt4QAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT117&dq=%22on+the+friz%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5WP3U7OcMaed8gHv9oDADg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22on%20the%20friz%22&f=false [http://books.google.com/books?id=yt4QAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE713kPanun0E25iEVEfaVusRmI9Wed6GQ143gD3s1hwhx6_t8GjHO_QFkDwQqm-TukKWykyEG9CzaSHoM3KVXDPFZpKboGa4JmL9vnhqvI1HSR8QhP0] Sonnets of a Suffragette - Berton Braley - Google Books Read more... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Aug 22 19:39:34 2014 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 19:39:34 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408212348.s7LJvXj3019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I apologize for not finding the entry in HDAS. I keep forgetting about the system of alphabetizing that locates (for example) "can of corn" AFTER entries for "canal," "candy," "cannon," "canoe", and 4+ pages of other entries since "can" itself appeared! As for the legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical expression "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery stores! Charlie ________________________________________ ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: "can of corn" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See HDAS I, p. 358. I have heard it only in reference to baseball. Used by whom in 1896? JL On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list > members. > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D%22can+o+corn%22+#v=3Ds= > nippet& > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me) > veracity= > . > > Title: Origin of baseball term =E2=80=9Ccan of corn=E2=80=9D > Date: May 2, 2008 > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.html > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations > of unknown (to me) veracity. > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D7&t=3D18322 > > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term) > > [Begin excerpt] > can of corn (baseball term) > > Post by Ken Greenwald > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give > definitive answers around here. (<:) > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated > with the grocer=E2=80=99s practice in the early 1900s of storing cans of > co= > rn > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=E2=80=99d simply tip it > forwa= > rd > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his > waiting hands. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 19:44:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:44:16 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <201408221940.s7MIudGx019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Aah, but we're not talking logic here. We're talking iconic metaphorical shortcuts. (Of course, I was somewhat shorter in 1954, so maybe the shelves weren't quite so high.) JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: "can of corn" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I apologize for not finding the entry in HDAS. I keep forgetting about > the= > system of alphabetizing that locates (for example) "can of corn" AFTER > en= > tries for "canal," "candy," "cannon," "canoe", and 4+ pages of other > entrie= > s since "can" itself appeared!=0A= > =0A= > As for the legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical > express= > ion "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > = > was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery stores!= > =0A= > =0A= > Charlie=0A= > =0A= > ________________________________________=0A= > =0A= > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > -------------------= > ----=0A= > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > Poster: Jonathan Lighter =0A= > Subject: Re: "can of corn"=0A= > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----=0A= > =0A= > See HDAS I, p. 358.=0A= > =0A= > I have heard it only in reference to baseball.=0A= > =0A= > Used by whom in 1896?=0A= > =0A= > JL=0A= > =0A= > =0A= > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 5:59 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <=0A= > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:=0A= > =0A= > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header=0A= > > -----------------------=0A= > > Sender: American Dialect Society =0A= > > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole =0A= > > Subject: Re: "can of corn"=0A= > >=0A= > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ------=0A= > >=0A= > > Charlie: Here is a link to a discussion of "can of corn" in a Google=0A= > > Books preview of "The Dickson Baseball Dictionary" by Paul Dickson=0A= > > (Third Edition). I do not know if this link will work for list=0A= > > members.=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DceeU7xSLw5kC&q=3D3D%22can+o+corn%22+= > #v=3D3Ds=3D=0A= > > nippet&=0A= > >=0A= > > Below is a link to a webpage with an explanation of unknow (to me)=0A= > > veracity=3D=0A= > > .=0A= > >=0A= > > Title: Origin of baseball term =3DE2=3D80=3D9Ccan of corn=3DE2=3D80=3D9D= > =0A= > > Date: May 2, 2008=0A= > > > http://mtcave.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-baseball-term-can-of-corn.ht= > ml=0A= > >=0A= > > Below is another link to another webpage with an similar explanations=0A= > > of unknown (to me) veracity.=0A= > >=0A= > > http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3D3D7&t=3D3D18322=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= > > Page Title: can of corn (baseball term)=0A= > >=0A= > > [Begin excerpt]=0A= > > can of corn (baseball term)=0A= > >=0A= > > Post by Ken Greenwald=0A= > > Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am=0A= > >=0A= > > Ralph, You make it sound as if we are going to guess. We only give=0A= > > definitive answers around here. (<:)=0A= > >=0A= > > CAN OF CORN: An easily played fly ball. Reported to have originated=0A= > > with the grocer=3DE2=3D80=3D99s practice in the early 1900s of storing > ca= > ns of=0A= > > co=3D=0A= > > rn=0A= > > on a high shelf. When a grocer needed one, he=3DE2=3D80=3D99d simply tip > = > it=0A= > > forwa=3D=0A= > > rd=0A= > > with a rod or a broom handle so that it would tumble easily into his=0A= > > waiting hands.= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 22 19:45:22 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408190311.s7J13bOX005971@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." JL On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > JSB > > > >JL > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > >wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > mass > > > more > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > against" > > > or > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if > so it > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. Any > > > ethnic > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > > likely > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > experience > > > of > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques Lacan." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > ----- > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > complaint to > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Fri Aug 22 21:33:18 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:33:18 +0000 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE As for the > legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > stores!= Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 02:03:37 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 02:03:37 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Message-ID: make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 02:53:51 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:53:51 -0400 Subject: "can of corn" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <671B7167A063944AA4DB6E5E46BBFFC8016C1525@RD-vEX3.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration going for it. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > As for the >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery >> stores!= > > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 03:03:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:03:37 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A07AEC@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) > > > > 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 03:41:46 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:41:46 -0400 Subject: moneymaker In-Reply-To: <201408221219.s7MADroB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Every reader of HDAS knows by now which bodily parts of "female sex > workers" this originally referred to. > > Now it means your face. > > CNN: "Protect the moneymaker!" (Advice for when you're staring at a foul > ball heading your way.) > > But maybe it only means your face if you're a TV personality. > > In that case, OK. >From Season 1, Episode 12 of "Community" ("Comparative Religion," aired 12/10/2009): Pierce [Chevy Chase]: Are you telling me you've never been punched in the face? Jeff [Joel McHale]: No, thank god. This is the moneymaker. http://communityquotes.net/112.php (I was just binge-watching Season 1 on a trans-Pacific flight.) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 05:41:01 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 01:41:01 -0400 Subject: "Streamers" Message-ID: "Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the concentrated beams of solar energy focused upward by the plant's 300,000 mirrors -- '_streamers_,' for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair," according to an Associated Press report." - Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 11:18:52 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:18:52 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <89F7AC0D-FED6-49A9-A4EC-03169BBEC105@yale.edu> Message-ID: Actually I was thinking exactly the same thing that Larry suggests here, after I sent this email last night. I now have concluded that this 1883 citation is very likely in the old sense of flirting or foreplay. Of the almost 100 other occurrences of "make love" or "made love" or "making love" in pre-1927 legal cases, none of them seems at all to be in the sense of sexual intercourse. The 1883 citation is thus "too good to be true" and can easily be read to mean that the defendant came on to the woman as a preliminary to gratifying his animal desires. The context is one of ultimately having intercourse but "make love" does not refer to the act of intercourse. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 11:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. LH On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) > > > > 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 15:19:16 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:19:16 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <116B290C-A2DB-40E4-BFBB-E359FBBE47C4@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and >"can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration >going for it. Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) JSB >LH > > >On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > > > As for the > >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > >> stores!= > > > > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can > of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zbyoung at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 15:24:02 2014 From: zbyoung at GMAIL.COM (Beth Young) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:24:02 -0400 Subject: an antedating "how to"? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408220122.s7M0U4wv019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Bill, George, and John, for those excellent suggestions. I'll be updating the guide with them this weekend. Beth ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 16:44:56 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:44:56 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <250494.42785.bm@smtp118.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has alliteration going for it. > > Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) Ah, but what Warhol depicted was not a can of soup, but a soup can. "Warhol" + "soup can": 580K raw g-hits "Warhol" + "can of soup": 53K raw g-hits That's a whole nother thing. LH >> >> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: >> >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> > Caveats: NONE >> > >> > >> > >> > As for the >> >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion >> >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn >> >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery >> >> stores!= >> > >> > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". >> > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >> > Caveats: NONE >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 23 16:50:12 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:50:12 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A07B6C@x10-mbx5.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:18 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > Actually I was thinking exactly the same thing that Larry suggests here, after I sent this email last night. I now have concluded that this 1883 citation is very likely in the old sense of flirting or foreplay. Of the almost 100 other occurrences of "make love" or "made love" or "making love" in pre-1927 legal cases, none of them seems at all to be in the sense of sexual intercourse. The 1883 citation is thus "too good to be true" and can easily be read to mean that the defendant came on to the woman as a preliminary to gratifying his animal desires. > The context is one of ultimately having intercourse but "make love" does not refer to the act of intercourse. Exactly. I find that more plausible than the reverse, even without the suggestive evidence from the early dating. LH > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 11:03 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" > > I can imagine a plausible reading here where the writer intended "try to seduce" (as in the earlier sense) rather than "have sex with". A bit of a stretch, perhaps, but consistent with the older meaning ('To pay amorous attention to'): Prompted by the goal of gratifying his animal desires, he made love to her and made love to her and finally broke down her resistance. > > LH > > > On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> make love (OED, s.v. love, n.1 P.3(b), 1927) >> >> >> >> 1883 _Kentucky Opinions_ 12: 21 (1915) [case of Clark v. Phillips] As a defense to the action he pleaded that she was an unchaste woman, and the fact that she had given birth to an illegitimate child would have been sufficient to authorize the jury to find for him, unless it had been shown that the gratification of his own animal desires prompted him to make love to this confiding and unfortunate girl. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 17:42:15 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 13:42:15 -0400 Subject: "Circus" in OED2; quotation 1839 Message-ID: OED2 seems not to have a separate sense for "circus" specifically referring to exhibition of animals. Sense 2.a speaks of human performers, other senses under "2. mod." and 3. & ff. are further afield. Should it? 2.a has citations from 1792, 1806, and then 1860. The following almost certainly refers to an animal exhibit. 1839 The Knickerbocker, or New-York Monthly Magazine, "Circus", 67. [Pesumably the article title; presumably on the first page of the article.] I have only seen a citation to this, not the Knickbocker text itself. The citation is in Mizelle, Brett. "'Man Cannot Behold It Without Contemplating Himself': Monkeys, Apes and Human Identity in the Early American Republic." Explorations in Early American Culture, A Supplemental Issue of Pennsylvania History: A Journal of Mid-Atlantic Studies, 66 (1999), page 171, note 41. William Bentley's Diary has two instances of circus, 1809 Feb. 28 and 1810 March 29, but both clearly refer to exhibitions by human performers. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 19:11:03 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:11:03 -0400 Subject: :-)) Re: [ADS-L] "can of corn" In-Reply-To: <1B627D6B-4C99-482C-8B32-698A3FB9D48A@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/23/2014 12:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/22/2014 10:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> The only viable competitors I can think of are "can of beans" > and "can of soup", and "can of corn" (or "can o' corn") has > alliteration going for it. > > > > Which appealed to Andy Warhol? (Rhetorical question.) > >Ah, but what Warhol depicted was not a can of soup, but a soup can. > >"Warhol" + "soup can": 580K raw g-hits >"Warhol" + "can of soup": 53K raw g-hits > >That's a whole nother thing. 'nother can of worms? Even if not painted by Warhol, more popular -- "can of worms": 750K raw g-hits JSB >LH > >> > >> On Aug 22, 2014, at 5:33 PM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) wrote: > >> > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> > Caveats: NONE > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > As for the > >> >> legendary explanation for the origin of the metaphorical express= ion > >> >> "can of corn": I can't imagine there exists evidence that canned corn > >> >> = was ever typically shelved higher than other food items in grocery > >> >> stores!= > >> > > >> > Maybe not, but "can of corn" has a much better rhythm than > "can of chick peas" or "can of turnip greens". > >> > > >> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > >> > Caveats: NONE > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 21:18:13 2014 From: amcombill at HOTMAIL.COM (Bill Mullins) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:18:13 -0500 Subject: "But it was all for not" Message-ID: In an article about a high school football game in the Huntsville Times. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 23 21:54:25 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 17:54:25 -0400 Subject: "Bikeway Joint moves forward" Message-ID: In the Arlington (Mass.) Advocate this week, under the subject heading "Transportation", the article headline is "Bikeway Joint moves forward". Puzzling. Bikers have joints, which are crucial to them, but do bikeways? Is it to be a low-class "bike up bar"? It becomes clearer in the first paragraph of the story: "Plans to make a smoother connection of the Minuteman Bikeway through Arlington Center moved forward Monday, as selectmen voted in favor of securing easements on pieces of land." The Bikeway's crossing of both Massachusetts Ave and Mystic St.. in Arlington Center is nervous for car-drivers and awkward, confusing, and a bit dangerous for bikers. There will be "new bike-oriented traffic signals" (I think these will be operable by bikers, as pedestrian signals are) and signs to direct both cars and bikes. The article itself doesn't use the word "Joint" anywhere. But when the project is completed I fully expect to hear Arlington bikers making appointments to "Meet you at the Joint". (There's a Starbucks less than a tenth of a mile away.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 23 23:52:23 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 07:52:23 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408231650.s7NGj1qX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected semantic extension of <> around that time. (<> /Wikip) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 00:30:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:30:15 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I don't know where or how. LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 00:43:55 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:43:55 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240030.s7NGj1cx019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: <> Actually it isn't. It applied to flirting, petting, and smooching, but to "having sex" only by semantic extension. In later years, well.... JL On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating = > earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and = > hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French = > counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I = > don't know where or how. =20 > > LH > > On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > > > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have = > effected > > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< is a > > euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DANRPmTZRqkg > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 01:11:31 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:11:31 +0000 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <7549E4B3-3D21-4679-A653-1834EE8F582B@yale.edu> Message-ID: I think the closest French counterpart to the OED is Tresor de la langue francaise [diacritics omitted]. My university has online access to this as part of the ARTFL database. I don't know whether Larry's university has the same kind of resources that mine has. In any case, I looked at TLF and it doesn't seem to have an entry for "faire l'amour." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 8:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" Does anyone know the history of "faire l'amour"? I was speculating earlier that it may have undergone the same shift earlier than, and hence been a catalyst for, "make love". What I'd need is the French counterpart of the OED, but if anything like that is accessible online I don't know where or how. LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 7:52 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Wonder if Kahn & Donaldson's <> 1928 could have effected > semantic extension of <> around that time. (< euphemism for sexual intimacy>> /Wikip) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRPmTZRqkg > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 02:35:32 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 22:35:32 -0400 Subject: Historical dictionary of French? Message-ID: Mavens on another list suggest -- Tresor de la langue francaise (as did Fred), currently named FRANTEXT. https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/dictionnaires-dautrefois https://encyclopedie.uchicago.edu https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/artfl-frantext http://atilf.atilf.fr/ [One or more of these last may be Tresor.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:14:13 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:14:13 +0000 Subject: Query: Origin of "give/have the willies" Message-ID: I've been asked the origin of "willies" in "give/have the willies." OED3 lists it as "Origin unknown." Would anyone have any idea? Below is OED3's entry for the item. Gerald Cohen [OED3]: willies, n. Pronunciation: /?w?l?z/ Etymology: Etymology unknown. slang (orig. U.S.). the willies: a fit of nervous apprehension. Chiefly in phrs. to give (someone) the willies, to get the willies. 1896 Dial. Notes 1 427 To have the willies, to be nervous. 1900 G. Bonner Hard-pan 99 It just gives me the willies to think of your being down on your luck. 1913 J. London Valley of Moon 105 Bert gives me the willies the way he's always lookin' for trouble. 1927 H. A. Vachell Dew of Sea 261, I sure got the willies at the thought of meeting you. 1942 G. Kersh Nine Lives Bill Nelson ix. 57 It can give you the willies when, in broad daylight, you hear a rifle go off. 1953 F. Swinnerton Month in Gordon Square 202 Gosh! She was getting the willies. It was awful. 1962 J. Heller Catch-22 xii. 127 Chief White Halfoat shuddered. ?That guy gives me the willies,? he confessed. 1975 B. Felton & M. Fowler Best, Worst & most Unusual 277 You can now visit Winchester House. But we wouldn't advise it if you suffer from the willies. 1984 A. Carter Nights at Circus iii. i. 199 Not that the ?wagon salon? isn't very pleasant, if it don't give you the willies. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:18:13 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:18:13 +0000 Subject: Query: Origin of "give/have the willies". (2nd try) Message-ID: The first e-mail came out gibberish. Here's a second try. G. Cohen ________________________________________ I've been asked the origin of "willies" in "give/have the willies." OED3 lists it as "Origin unknown." Would anyone have any idea? Below is OED3's entry for the item. Gerald Cohen [OED3]: willies, n. Pronunciation: /?w?l?z/ Etymology: Etymology unknown. slang (orig. U.S.). the willies: a fit of nervous apprehension. Chiefly in phrs. to give (someone) the willies, to get the willies. 1896 Dial. Notes 1 427 To have the willies, to be nervous. 1900 G. Bonner Hard-pan 99 It just gives me the willies to think of your being down on your luck. 1913 J. London Valley of Moon 105 Bert gives me the willies the way he's always lookin' for trouble. 1927 H. A. Vachell Dew of Sea 261, I sure got the willies at the thought of meeting you. 1942 G. Kersh Nine Lives Bill Nelson ix. 57 It can give you the willies when, in broad daylight, you hear a rifle go off. 1953 F. Swinnerton Month in Gordon Square 202 Gosh! She was getting the willies. It was awful. 1962 J. Heller Catch-22 xii. 127 Chief White Halfoat shuddered. ?That guy gives me the willies,? he confessed. 1975 B. Felton & M. Fowler Best, Worst & most Unusual 277 You can now visit Winchester House. But we wouldn't advise it if you suffer from the willies. 1984 A. Carter Nights at Circus iii. i. 199 Not that the ?wagon salon? isn't very pleasant, if it don't give you the willies. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:23:53 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:23:53 -0400 Subject: Historical dictionary of French? In-Reply-To: <160591.71530.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I see in the 1930s the Academicians were still defining "faire l'amour" in a dignified and refined light: Se livrer ? la galanterie. Il passe sa vie ? faire l'amour. Il fait l'amour ? toutes les femmes. Wonder when the gallantry became optional (and the activity alluded to in the cites reinterpreted accordingly; cf. e.g. Wilt Chamberlain) LH On Aug 23, 2014, at 10:35 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Mavens on another list suggest -- > > Tresor de la langue francaise (as did Fred), currently named FRANTEXT. > > https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/dictionnaires-dautrefois > > https://encyclopedie.uchicago.edu > > https://artfl-project.uchicago.edu/content/artfl-frantext > > http://atilf.atilf.fr/ > > [One or more of these last may be Tresor.] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 03:24:53 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 03:24:53 +0000 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" Message-ID: This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material from OED3; maybe that's what made my first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is to make them nervous. Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 24 03:41:12 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:41:12 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvH019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Inspector, Literary Magazine and Review, Volume 2, London: 1827, has a story called "The Willi-Dance. / An Hungarian Legend." and says (http://bit.ly/1ps7xFC): ----- More than all, loved Emelka to hear the legend of the Willi-dance, which the crone always thus began?" Every maiden "who dies, when she is betrothed, is called a Willi. The Willies wander "restless on the earth, and hold their nightly dances wherever roads "meet; if any man then meets them, they dance with him till he dies; "he is then the bridegroom of the youngest Willi, who thereby at last "is enabled to rest; such a one is my sister. Ah! often have I seen "her in the moon-beam,"?and then followed the tale of the lover, the sorrows and the death of the poor young maiden. In stories like this, of the region of spirits, the luckless Emelka sought to forget the bitterness of earthly suffering. ----- See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_folklore. I have no proof that this is the origin, but it certainly seems like a good starting point. Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material= > from OED3; maybe that's what made my > > first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) > > > > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the = > willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is t= > o make them nervous. > > > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 05:49:52 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:49:52 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can see some citations in the 1890s connecting "the willys" and "the willies" to delirium tremens. Saying that a person "had the 'willies'" meant the person was experiencing delirium tremens. I will post some citations later or someone else may post them first. Of course, one may still wonder why the DTs were called "the willies". Garson On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted material= > from OED3; maybe that's what made my > > first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) > > > > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have the = > willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is t= > o make them nervous. > > > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > > > > Gerald Cohen > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 05:55:01 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:55:01 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240111.s7O1BJgY000533@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH, if I wasn't so timid, I'd try the Acade'mie franc,aise website, find tabs La Langue franc,aise, Questions de langue: <> Better not make any faux pas in your formulaire. They're touchy that way. They never stop improving the French language, that's for sure. Today, they suggest using instead of , instead of , for , for , for . Remember, say , not . ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:35:33 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 08:35:33 -0400 Subject: to "own" Message-ID: In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's first grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or merited. Rare. Obs." A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:41:19 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 08:41:19 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408240555.s7O2TgOb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 2003 Peter Noah _War Stories_ (NBC-TV movie): ?I lack your European *je ne sais quois*, ? your *hinky dinky parlez-vous*.? (Nothing to do with WWI or Armentieres. Just something a guy says.) JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:55 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > LH, if I wasn't so timid, I'd try the Acade'mie franc,aise website, find > tabs La Langue franc,aise, Questions de langue: > < Service= > est la` > pour vous re'pondre. Remplissez le formulaire : Service du Dictionnaire.>> > Better not make any faux pas in your formulaire. They're touchy that way. > They never stop improving the French language, that's for sure. Today, they > suggest using instead of , > instead of , for , > for , for . Remember, say le'gal>, not . > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 12:53:43 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:53:43 +0800 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408241241.s7OA3DMf019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: JL: <<=E2=80=9CI lack your European *je ne sais quois*, =E2=80=A6 your *hinky din= ky parlez-vous*.=E2=80=9D>> WB: Doubt Bletchley Park had this much trouble with Colossus. Rinky-dinky Qwerty-vous. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 13:37:17 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:37:17 -0400 Subject: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic Sense of "Make Love" In-Reply-To: <201408241253.s7OA3DNj019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: NBC-TV movie, *War Stories* (2003) : ?I lack your European _je ne sais quois, ? your hinky dinky parlez-vous_.? Transmitted in the clear. Check manual if your Enigma clone self-encrypts. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:53 AM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: Precise Citation for Major Antedating of Euphemistic > Sense of > "Make Love" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > JL: <<=E2=80=9CI lack your European *je ne sais quois*, =E2=80=A6 your > *hinky din= > ky parlez-vous*.=E2=80=9D>> > > WB: Doubt Bletchley Park had this much trouble with Colossus. Rinky-dinky > Qwerty-vous. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 17:12:08 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:12:08 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang Message-ID: I invited Tom Dalzell to share with ads-l a few interesting items from his new (and very welcome) book on Vietnam War Slang. Today he sent me the list in the message below. Incidentally, for "Charlie" (= Viet Cong), Dalzell gives eight quotes with the references cited, but I would now add the etymology, which I believe is already well known: "Viet Cong" > "VC" > "Victor Charlie" (in radio-transmission alphabet) > (for short) "Charlie." Again, his list is just a sample, and his book looks like a valuable addition to the study of war slang. Gerald Cohen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang Sorry for the delay. Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: Charlie Country, in Dink Dinky dau Double digit midget FIGMO FNG Freedom bird Gook Graf (verb sense 2) Grunt Hump (verb) Million dollar wound REMF World, the Edgier entries include: Bell Telephone hour Boom Boom Buddhist barbecue BUFE; buffy Carwash Dap Doughnut dolly Flying lessons FTA LBFM Thanks / Tom From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard [mailto:gcohen at mst.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 3:16 PM To: American Dialect Society Cc: Dalzell, Tom Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War Slang_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) share below with ads-l. "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to share with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better typify the material he came across in his research. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and for the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm surprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a couple places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as marginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 17:35:02 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:35:02 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241712.s7OFlv2D019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Doughnut Dolly" was the official Red Cross designation. So it didn't make it to in HDAS. Graf, Buddhist barbecue, flying lessons, carwash? Can't say I've made the acquaintance, though most are easily guessible. While "Charlie" is indeed principally from "Victor Charlie," many people seem to have associated it with the great Chinese detective Charlie Chan. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I invited Tom Dalzell to share with ads-l a few interesting items from his > = > new (and very welcome) book on Vietnam War Slang. Today he sent me the > list= > in the message below. > > Incidentally, for "Charlie" (=3D Viet Cong), Dalzell gives eight quotes > wit= > h the references cited, but I would now add the etymology, which I believe > = > is already well known: "Viet Cong" > "VC" > "Victor Charlie" (in > radio-tran= > smission alphabet) > (for short) "Charlie."=20 > > Again, his list is just a sample, and his book looks like a valuable > additi= > on to the study of war slang. > > Gerald Cohen > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > Sorry for the delay. > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > Charlie > Country, in > Dink > Dinky dau > Double digit midget > FIGMO > FNG > Freedom bird > Gook > Graf (verb sense 2) > Grunt > Hump (verb) > Million dollar wound > REMF > World, the > > Edgier entries include: > > Bell Telephone hour > Boom Boom > Buddhist barbecue > BUFE; buffy > Carwash > Dap > Doughnut dolly > Flying lessons > FTA > LBFM > > > Thanks / Tom=20 > > From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard [mailto:gcohen at mst.edu]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 3:16 PM > To: American Dialect Society > Cc: Dalzell, Tom > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > I've kept Tom Dalzell posted on the ads-l messages concerning the supposed > = > chemical agent "Howdy-Doody", included in his latest book, _Vietnam War > Sla= > ng_. Tom replied with two messages, which I now (with his permission) > share= > below with ads-l. > > "Howdy-Doody" is clearly an outlier for Tom. Might I now invite him to > sha= > re with ads-l a few items that he finds very interesting and also better > ty= > pify the material he came across in his research. > > Gerald Cohen > ________________________________________ > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 10:44 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > This is the only cite I have for it. It was marginal for that reason and > fo= > r the reason that the identity of the chemical agent is not revealed. I'm > s= > urprised that it got as much attention as it did. I have feelers out a > coup= > le places to see if I can find out anything more about it. Thanks, Tom > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:57 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > Thanks. I have been seeing them. I stand by my description of the term as > m= > arginal. I continue to be surprised by the attention being paid to it. > Than= > ks, Tom= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Sun Aug 24 18:17:15 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:17:15 +0000 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241735.s7OFlvEB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer had auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." G. Cohen > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > Sorry for the delay. > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > Charlie > Country, in > Dink > Dinky dau > Double digit midget > FIGMO > FNG > Freedom bird > Gook > Graf (verb sense 2) > Grunt > Hump (verb) > Million dollar wound > REMF > World, the > > Edgier entries include: > > Bell Telephone hour > Boom Boom > Buddhist barbecue > BUFE; buffy > Carwash > Dap > Doughnut dolly > Flying lessons > FTA > LBFM > > > Thanks / Tom > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 18:48:34 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:48:34 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241817.s7OFlvPd019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'll buy that. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer > ha= > d auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." > > G. Cohen > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > --=3D > > ----- > > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > Sorry for the delay. > > > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > > > Charlie > > Country, in > > Dink > > Dinky dau > > Double digit midget > > FIGMO > > FNG > > Freedom bird > > Gook > > Graf (verb sense 2) > > Grunt > > Hump (verb) > > Million dollar wound > > REMF > > World, the > > > > Edgier entries include: > > > > Bell Telephone hour > > Boom Boom > > Buddhist barbecue > > BUFE; buffy > > Carwash > > Dap > > Doughnut dolly > > Flying lessons > > FTA > > LBFM > > > > > > Thanks / Tom > >= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 18:56:51 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I'll buy that. > > JL Moves it into the "edgier" column, I'd say. LH > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his computer >> ha= >> d auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." >> >> G. Cohen >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= >> --=3D >>> ----- >>> >>> From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM >>> To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard >>> Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang >>> >>> Sorry for the delay. >>> >>> Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: >>> >>> Charlie >>> Country, in >>> Dink >>> Dinky dau >>> Double digit midget >>> FIGMO >>> FNG >>> Freedom bird >>> Gook >>> Graf (verb sense 2) >>> Grunt >>> Hump (verb) >>> Million dollar wound >>> REMF >>> World, the >>> >>> Edgier entries include: >>> >>> Bell Telephone hour >>> Boom Boom >>> Buddhist barbecue >>> BUFE; buffy >>> Carwash >>> Dap >>> Doughnut dolly >>> Flying lessons >>> FTA >>> LBFM >>> >>> >>> Thanks / Tom >>> = >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 20:01:14 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:01:14 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <8D567616828C1C45901EDC8CE21996AB9762A1F2@UM-MBX-T01.um.ums ystem.edu> Message-ID: At 8/24/2014 02:17 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: >Tom Dalzell just notified me that his list contains a typo (his >computer had auto corrected): "Graf" should be "frag." Auto-ana(spelling and)grammarization? JSB >G. Cohen > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > ----- > > > > From: Dalzell, Tom [tmd9 at IBEW1245.com] > > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:54 AM > > To: Cohen, Gerald Leonard > > Subject: RE: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > Sorry for the delay. > > > > Some mainstays of the Vietnam war slang lexicon include: > > > > Charlie > > Country, in > > Dink > > Dinky dau > > Double digit midget > > FIGMO > > FNG > > Freedom bird > > Gook > > Graf (verb sense 2) > > Grunt > > Hump (verb) > > Million dollar wound > > REMF > > World, the > > > > Edgier entries include: > > > > Bell Telephone hour > > Boom Boom > > Buddhist barbecue > > BUFE; buffy > > Carwash > > Dap > > Doughnut dolly > > Flying lessons > > FTA > > LBFM > > > > > > Thanks / Tom > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 24 21:14:31 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:14:31 -0400 Subject: "Circus" in OED2; quotation 1839 In-Reply-To: <791423.61450.bm@smtp111.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Circuses in early 19th C NYC involved trained horses, trick riders, and acrobats. No trained animals, other than the horses. It seems that the first "modern" circus was organized in London by Philip Astley in 1770. He had been a cavalry officer. The first American circus was organized by John Bill Ricketts, who performed before President Washington. (I learn this from Earl Chapin May, *The Circus from Rome to Ringling*, first published in 1931, but which I am reading in the Dover reprint of 1963.) [a puff for Mr. Rickett's Circus] . . . a couple of hours spent thus, from 5 to 7 once or twice a week, is a better way of passing time than smoaking over the bottle and neglecting the fair sex, who are here frequently seen in the highest perfection. The exercise of walking to and from the Circus adds health to the ladies, and gentlemen, who grace the seats and form such a beautiful circuitous picture [that] is in itself a sufficiently interesting spectacle to induce the citizens frequently to visit the place. . . . N-Y D Gazette, September 4, 1793, p. 3, cols. 1-2 Elephants and other exotic animals were displayed independently. The America has brought home an elephant, from Bengal, in perfect health. It is the first ever seen in America, and a very great curiosity. *** This animal is sold for Ten Thousand Dollars. . . . American Minerva, April 16, 1796, p. 3, col. ? [see the elephant for 4 shillings, children 2 shillings] Argus, or Greenleaf?s New D Advertiser, April 25, 1796. [a male camel shown at Broadway & Beaver streets; 2 shillings for grown-ups, 1 shilling for children; illustration] Diary, July 24, 1797, p. 3, col. 5 We understand that the noble elephant, which was exhibited in this town a short time since was shot and killed by some mischievous villain, while entering the town of Alfred, in Maine, on Wednesday night last. N-Y E Post, July 30, 1816, p. 2, col. 5, quoting a Boston paper of July 27 America's first lion-tamer was Isaac Van Ambergh. active from the 1830s. GAT On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > OED2 seems not to have a separate sense for "circus" specifically > referring to exhibition of animals. Sense 2.a speaks of human performers, > other senses under "2. mod." and 3. & ff. are further afield. Should it? > > 2.a has citations from 1792, 1806, and then 1860. The following almost > certainly refers to an animal exhibit. > > 1839 The Knickerbocker, or New-York Monthly Magazine, "Circus", 67. > [Pesumably the article title; presumably on the first page of the article.] > > I have only seen a citation to this, not the Knickbocker text itself. The > citation is in Mizelle, Brett. "'Man Cannot Behold It Without Contemplating > Himself': Monkeys, Apes and Human Identity in the Early American Republic." > Explorations in Early American Culture, A Supplemental Issue of > Pennsylvania History: A Journal of Mid-Atlantic Studies, 66 (1999), page > 171, note 41. > > William Bentley's Diary has two instances of circus, 1809 Feb. 28 and > 1810 March 29, but both clearly refer to exhibitions by human performers. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 21:30:59 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:30:59 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube Message-ID: In an ad, approximately: ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 24 21:40:32 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:40:32 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > In an ad, approximately: > > ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 21:42:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:42:23 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242140.s7OKfQvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But more desirable. I think. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on the tube > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > In an ad, approximately: > >=20 > > ?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > >=20 > > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > >=20 > > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" > >=20 > > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the = > celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:01:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:01:06 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241735.s7OFlvEB019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > While "Charlie" is indeed principally from "Victor Charlie," many people > seem to have associated it with the great Chinese detective Charlie Chan. > That's news to me. But, the restriction of "Charlie Chan," "Chop-Chop" - the token minority comic-relief member of The-otherwise-all-white Blackhawks, some may recall, though, to tell it like it was, even the *white* ethnics that made up the other Blackhawks were clownish dorks compared to their red-blooded, all-Americanly-heroic leader, Blackhawk himself; but poor Chop-Chop was both physically unprepossessing and not allowed to wear the Blackhawk uniform, not that he could possibly have fitted into such sleek, body-hugging, clothing. "Hawk-a-a-a!" - "Ching-Chong," "Chink," etc. to ethnic Chinese and to blacks who are felt to have a certain Asian cast to their features may have been peculiar to the coloreds. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 24 22:04:38 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:04:38 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/24/2014 05:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >In an ad, approximately: > >?"strong enough to? _eat lightning and crap thunder_" > >Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > >"bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" What did Paul Bunyan say, or was said about him? And instead of "crap" I would prefer "fart" -- alluding to the crack. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:32:41 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:32:41 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242131.s7OKfQun019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote:- > Very reminiscent of the old - ca. 1955-65 - BE catchphrase: > "bad enough to _handcuff lightning and put thunder in jail_" Muhammad Ali used a rhyming version of that expression in 1974. Periodical: Jet Date: September 26, 1974 Article: Foreman and Ali Stage Africa's Biggest Fight Author: Ronald E. Kisner Quote Page: 53 http://books.google.com/books?id=548DAAAAMBAJ&q=thunder#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] I have wrestled with an alligator, tustled with a whale, handcuffed lightning, throwed thunder in jail. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:32:22 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:32:22 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408241856.s7OFlvSX019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn quoted: > FIGMO Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both from one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" in the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew black *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring prominently in recruitment ads. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 22:51:03 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:51:03 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242233.s7OKfQ2Z019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notable is the Asian chigger, _Trombicula fujigmo_ (Philip & Fuller, 1950). (FUJIGMO being an elaboration of FIGMO; but unrelated to KMAGYOYO.) JL JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn > quoted: > > > FIGMO > > > Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are > contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both from > one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same > conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) > Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" in > the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew black > *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring > prominently in recruitment ads. > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 23:03:16 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:03:16 -0400 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242251.s7OKfQ5j019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Serendipitously and unrelatedly (but too good to pass over), I find a B-29 Superfortress (Serial No. 42-63435) nicknamed by its crew, "Snafuperfort." JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Notable is the Asian chigger, _Trombicula fujigmo_ (Philip & Fuller, > 1950). > > (FUJIGMO being an elaboration of FIGMO; but unrelated to KMAGYOYO.) > > JL > > > > JL > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: Book on Vietnam War Slang > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Laurence Horn > > quoted: > > > > > FIGMO > > > > > > Not at *all* peculiar to the Vietnam-War era. FIGMO and "cop a squat" are > > contemporary, in my experience, in the sense that I learned them both > from > > one older, Army-vet friend, ca. 1953, very possibly in the same > > conversation. (I was already familiar with SNAFU and FUBAR, of course.) > > Before the draft was done away with, damned near "every swinging dick" > in > > the country had occasion to get "nervous in the service." I even knew > black > > *marines*, when they were as rare as black MD's, instead of figuring > > prominently in recruitment ads. > > > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 24 23:05:35 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:05:35 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242140.s7OKfQvT019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Three g-hits for "If you eat lightning you'll crap thunder", sort of the > celestial version of lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. > Therefore, in fact, not at *all* reminiscent of the old BE catchphrase. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 00:50:38 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:50:38 -0400 Subject: to "own" In-Reply-To: <201408241235.s7OA3DMN019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's first > grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" > > "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" > > OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or > merited. Rare. Obs." > > A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. > As Jonathan E. Lighter could own the field of historical American slangology, were he not too modest to acknowledge the accolades of his peers, as well as those of amateurs of the field. Nice, Jon! Though I've oft seen that commercial, my ordinarily-incisive mind failed to pierce to the heart of the matter. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 00:56:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:56:30 -0400 Subject: to "own" In-Reply-To: <201408250051.s7OKfQJR019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You were merely distracted by the speaker. JL On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: to "own" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:35 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > In a current weight-loss commercial, elderly knockout Marie Osmond's > first > > grandchild (allegedly) calls her "glamma!" > > > > "I can own that!" Marie beams. "I'm a Glam Ma!" > > > > OED 4b: "To acknowledge as due to oneself; to accept as deserved or > > merited. Rare. Obs." > > > > A 1646 ex. only, and a splendid definition of what Marie says. > > > > As Jonathan E. Lighter could own the field of historical American > slangology, were he not too modest to acknowledge the accolades of his > peers, as well as those of amateurs of the field. > > Nice, Jon! Though I've oft seen that commercial, my ordinarily-incisive > mind failed to pierce to the heart of the matter. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 01:08:20 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:08:20 -0400 Subject: Heard on the tube In-Reply-To: <201408242232.s7OKfQ2F019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:32 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > Muhammad Ali used a rhyming version of that expression in 1974. Yes. But did you know that there is an earlier instance of "different strokes for different folks" that antedates the Cassius Marcellus Clay quote of 1963? ;-) A Study of the Roles of Attitudes and Motivation in Second Language Learning: Final Technical Report, November 25, 1961, Volume 2, by Wallace E. Lambert McGill University, 1961, P.5 " ... different strokes for different folks!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 02:16:45 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:16:45 +0800 Subject: Book on Vietnam War Slang In-Reply-To: <201408242233.s7OKfQ2P019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, Charlie: <> is patently too transparent for military purposes, so we called it the for RATEL, because it had nothing to do with phonetics and wasn't being used in the North Atlantic, but was however an alphabetic mnemonic in the Phoenician tradition. (Bloody clever deception that, wot-wot!). I been brainwashed with Capitalist catch phrases, like Jolly Green Giant, Mr Clean, Charlie Tuna, so that's what I thunk of back then. (Blacks, drawing from their own cultural perspective, paid respect to Little Brown Brutha with .) -> -> -> -> Charlie, Charlie Cong. The clever deceptive irony of calling one's enemy being lost on lifers, it had to go, leaving only , with added on as a sort of crypto-reduplication. Whiskey Bravo, Short!! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 05:29:30 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 01:29:30 -0400 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" Message-ID: "You're going to get you *pounds* of marijuana, baby! I'm talking about _*elbows*_!" The UD has "elbow : a pound of marijuana" from 2002. An obvious extension of the common pronunciation of the abbr., "lb(s)." as "L B('s)." (My lady wife prefers "lib(s)," which I know as "Librium(s).) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 06:08:45 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 02:08:45 -0400 Subject: Bullshit from the UD Message-ID: "Reggin" "Nigger spelled backwards. Used to trick black people." 2004 Old-timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "nigger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles. In that year, Los Angeles County ended after-sundown access to the beaches. Since black Angelenos normally went to the beach only after sundown - during the day, beaches were neck-deep in white people - this policy removed black people from the beaches as effectively as the Jim Crow laws then in effect from the Jersey Shore to Galveston Island. The explication of this new policy was headlined, "No More Reggins On The Beaches," in the local black tabloid. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From toff at MAC.COM Mon Aug 25 13:57:19 2014 From: toff at MAC.COM (Christopher Philippo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:57:19 +0000 Subject: Bullshit from the UD In-Reply-To: <201408250609.s7P40NNL020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2014, at 02:09 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: Old-timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "nigger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles. ? Cassell's Dictionary of Slang (2005) began its entry with "[1950s+] (US prison)" but offered no evidence for the 1950s or prison usage. ?It also claimed, dubiously,?"there are no racist overtones". ?Hopefully nobody's been so foolish as to rely on that: "In August 2007, the Commission settled for $44,000 a lawsuit against a California medical clinic, alleging that a White supervisor used racial code words, such as 'reggin' ('nigger' spelled backwards), to debase and intimidate an African American file clerk and then fired her after she complained. The clinic also agreed to incorporate a zero-tolerance policy concerning discriminatory harassment and retaliation into its internal EEO and anti-harassment policies. EEOC v. Robert G. Aptekar, M.D., d/b/a Arthritis & Orthopedic Medical Clinic, Civ. No. C06-4808 MHP (N.D. Cal. consent decree filed Aug. 20, 2007)." http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm There's a number of hits on Google books, and the word also shows up in pseudo-African American dialect in jokes and fiction to render "reckon"... possibly(?) the authors of such pieces had considered what it was backwards, e.g. see column four: http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887%20-%200648.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 14:10:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:10:18 -0400 Subject: Bullshit from the UD In-Reply-To: <201408251357.s7PDvB1D020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The new etymolomythology of "reckon": [euphem. for _reggin_, reversal of n-----, used to trick Black people; cf. _niggardly_, falsely claimed to mean 'stingy'] JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Christopher Philippo wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Christopher Philippo > Subject: Re: Bullshit from the UD > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 25, 2014, at 02:09 AM, Wilson Gray > wrote:=0AOld-= > timers will recall my noting the use of *reggin" as a pswaydo-cover for "n= > igger" in the BE slang of 1957 Los Angeles.=0A=A0=0ACassell's Dictionary o= > f Slang (2005) began its entry with "[1950s+] (US prison)" but offered no = > evidence for the 1950s or prison usage. =A0It also claimed, dubiously,=A0"= > there are no racist overtones". =A0Hopefully nobody's been so foolish as t= > o rely on that:=0A=0A"In August 2007, the Commission settled for $44,000 a= > lawsuit against a California medical clinic, alleging that a White superv= > isor used racial code words, such as 'reggin' ('nigger' spelled backwards)= > , to debase and intimidate an African American file clerk and then fired h= > er after she complained. The clinic also agreed to incorporate a zero-tole= > rance policy concerning discriminatory harassment and retaliation into its= > internal EEO and anti-harassment policies. EEOC v. Robert G. Aptekar, M.D= > ., d/b/a Arthritis & Orthopedic Medical Clinic, Civ. No. C06-4808 MHP (N.D= > . Cal. consent decree filed Aug. 20, 2007)."=0Ahttp:// > www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/in= > itiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm=0A=0AThere's a number of hits on Google > book= > s, and the word also shows up in pseudo-African American dialect in jokes = > and fiction to render "reckon"... possibly(?) the authors of such pieces h= > ad considered what it was backwards, e.g. see column four: http://fultonhi > = > story.com/Newspapers%2021/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch/Saint%20Pari= > s%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%201882-1887/Saint%20Paris%20OH%20Era%20Dispatch%20= > 1882-1887%20-%200648.pdf= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 15:14:06 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:14:06 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408221945.s7MIudIb019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Reporter in Ferguson: "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." No OED, no DARE. JL On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > JSB > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > > mass > > > > more > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > against" > > > > or > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but if > > so it > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. > Any > > > > ethnic > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree of > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay readers...most > > > > likely > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > experience > > > > of > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > complaint to > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL Mon Aug 25 15:46:43 2014 From: william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL (Mullins, Bill CIV (US)) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:46:43 +0000 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE This was in use as far back as 1981 at the Univ of Tn, Knoxville. (Not that I ever had any reason to use the term myself, you understand -- it was friends who said it. Yeah, that's it.) > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:30 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "You're going to get you *pounds* of marijuana, baby! I'm talking about > _*elbows*_!" > > The UD has > > "elbow : a pound of marijuana" > > from 2002. > > An obvious extension of the common pronunciation of the abbr., "lb(s)." > as "L B('s)." > > (My lady wife prefers "lib(s)," which I know as "Librium(s).) > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 16:58:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:58:32 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408251514.s7PEqlB5020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." I.e., the funeral service. JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > No OED, no DARE. > > JL > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited pseudo-sociological > > > mass > > > > > more > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > > against" > > > > > or > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, but > if > > > so it > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an assertion. > > Any > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some degree > of > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > readers...most > > > > > likely > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > experience > > > > > of > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > complaint to > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 25 17:20:58 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: not so green as... Message-ID: On one of the Inspector Lewis episodes in the BBC/PBS Masterpiece Mystery series, Lewis tells Det. Sgt. Hathaway (who has just acknowledging copying a key notebook before returning it), "You're not so green as you're cabbage looking". A new one on me (I had to rewind to make sure that's what he said), but upon Google I've learned that it's "an old Yorkshire saying" that seems not to have made it across the pond. I'm sure Michael Q. can trace its genealogy for us... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.quinion at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Aug 25 18:10:49 2014 From: michael.quinion at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:10:49 +0100 Subject: not so green as... In-Reply-To: <201408251721.s7PGYIht020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > On one of the Inspector Lewis episodes in the BBC/PBS Masterpiece > Mystery series, Lewis tells Det. Sgt. Hathaway (who has just > acknowledging copying a key notebook before returning it), "You're not > so green as you're cabbage looking". A new one on me (I had to rewind > to make sure that's what he said), but upon Google I've learned that > it's "an old Yorkshire saying" that seems not to have made it across the > pond. I'm sure Michael Q. can trace its genealogy for us... Aha! A challenge. I shall begin work at once ... -- Michael Quinion World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 19:48:40 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:48:40 -0400 Subject: From Adult Swim's "Black Jesus" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201408251546.s7PEqlX5020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Mullins, Bill CIV (US) < william.d.mullins18.civ at mail.mil> wrote: > Not that I ever had any reason to use the term myself, you understand Yeah, right. I've heard about you, man. When Bill Mullins feels low, he gets high, yo! ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 25 21:38:45 2014 From: debaron at ILLINOIS.EDU (Baron, Dennis E) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:38:45 +0000 Subject: The right to be forgotten Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: The internet is a place where, without even trying, words achieve immortality. Once posted, even the most frivolous thoughts are automatically copied, archived, and indexed. To be sure, the web can be ephemeral. Studies show that much online information is short-lived, with up to eighty-five percent disappearing within a year. And we?ve all had the frustration of failing to find something that we read online just the week before. But words do have permanence. Back in the first century BCE, the Roman poet Horace advised young writers not to put their words out into the world too soon: nescit vox missa reverti, ?the word, once sent, can never be recalled.? Today that advice would be, 'an email once sent . . . .' There is simply no ?undo.? Horace 2.0 would warn, ?The internet never forgets.? But a recent decision by the European Court of Justice (ECJ) tries to do just that, make the internet forget, because, according to the Court, everyone has the right to be forgotten. . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language: http://bit.ly/weblan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Mon Aug 25 22:52:32 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:52:32 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Message-ID: "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 25 23:08:31 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <201408252252.s7PL0rdn020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: > A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, > in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had > an easy job: > > - A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the parson_ had an easy job: -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 00:40:22 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:40:22 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's true, the speaker was not complaining that his own job was too easy. John Baker > On Aug 25, 2014, at 7:10 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: >> >> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had >> an easy job: > > - > > A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, > in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the > parson_ > had an easy job: > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 26 00:47:14 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:47:14 -0400 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Baker, John wrote: > It's true, the speaker was not complaining that his own job was too easy. Because he wasn't as green as he was cabbage looking. LH > > >> On Aug 25, 2014, at 7:10 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Baker, John wrote: >>> >>> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >>> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had >>> an easy job: >> >> - >> >> A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, >> in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought _the >> parson_ >> had an easy job: >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 08:16:38 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:16:38 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Baker, John Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 10:51:32 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:51:32 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <1409040997552.30477@duke.edu> Message-ID: Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Baker, John Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 11:08:44 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:08:44 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Subject: "Bob's your uncle" antedating (Glaswegian?) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:18:29 -0400 item 093898 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910E&L=ADS-L&P=R1116&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches and Subject: "Bob's your uncle" maybe antedated to 1924? Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:37:47 +0000 item 127919 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1308A&L=ADS-L&P=R2409&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John [...] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:51 AM To: ...Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society ... On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM ... Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society...on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 11:43:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:43:30 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408251658.s7PGYIUH020020@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Pastor in Ferguson: "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." "in awe" = shocked. JL On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > I.e., the funeral service. > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > pseudo-sociological > > > > mass > > > > > > more > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or "discriminated > > > > against" > > > > > > or > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, > but > > if > > > > so it > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > assertion. > > > Any > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > degree > > of > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > readers...most > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > > experience > > > > > > of > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 11:56:29 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:56:29 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408261143.s7QBMNgJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe "amazed" is closer to what he was thinking. Amazement is pretty necessary to awe. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pastor in Ferguson: > > "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a > recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." > > "in awe" = shocked. > > JL > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter > > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > > > I.e., the funeral service. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > > pseudo-sociological > > > > > mass > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or > "discriminated > > > > > against" > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats me, > > but > > > if > > > > > so it > > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > > assertion. > > > > Any > > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > > degree > > > of > > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > > readers...most > > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the persistent > > > > > experience > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to Jacques > > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange > > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > handle > > > the > > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > the > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 26 12:10:51 2014 From: JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:10:51 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: <1409051323856.90050@duke.edu> Message-ID: Thanks. I don't know why my search didn't find these posts. However, I was able to confirm the 1924 dating and add quite a bit to the history from 1924 to 1937, so I think my contribution was not the waste I feared. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 7:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Yes Subject: "Bob's your uncle" antedating (Glaswegian?) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:18:29 -0400 item 093898 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910E&L=ADS-L&P=R1116&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches and Subject: "Bob's your uncle" maybe antedated to 1924? Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:37:47 +0000 item 127919 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1308A&L=ADS-L&P=R2409&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John [...] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 6:51 AM To: ...Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Can you point to the ADS-L archive? It didn't show up in an archives search. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society ... On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:17 AM ... Subject: Re: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History The 1924 use in Scotland is noted in ADS-L archives, as well as three uses in a 1932 book, the bulk of which 'originally appeared in the Glasgow "Evening Times" and other portions in the Glasgow "Evening News" and "Daily Record and Mail" and the "Scottish Field."' Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society...on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 6:52 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History "Bob's your uncle" is a British catch-phrase; the OED defines it as "everything is all right," although my own admittedly non-British impression is that it is closer to "you're all set" or "it's that simple." The earliest attestation in the OED is from 1937. However, there are a number of earlier examples in the British Newspaper Archives. I summarize these categorically, rather than simply setting them out chronologically. Musical Comedy The earliest use I found is in the name of a musical comedy or revue first known to have been performed at the Victoria Theatre in Dundee, Scotland, in 1924. The first mention is in a teaser advertisement in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on June 10, 1924, when "Bob's Your Uncle" was mentioned without further detail in an advertisement for an "all Scotch week" at the Victoria Theatre. There were several mentions of the production in advertising in the Evening Telegraph and Post over the next few days, none of them very detailed. For example, on June 17 the advertisement stated: "If you want a good laugh, see Bob's Your Uncle, with good singing, mirth, dancing, and beauty chorus." These mentions are in all caps, although I have regularized capitalization for readability. The musical next is found at the Regent Theatre (Albert Hall), Barnstable, in 1929. There were advertisements for it in the North Devon Journal on April 18 and 25, 1929, and the same newspaper had a brief review of it on May 2, 1929: "The revuesical musical comedy, "Bob's Your Uncle," presented by C. A. Stephenson, is providing an excellent programme at the "Regent" this week. C. A. Stephenson as "Bob Spiphins" is a big success, no less a favourite being Miss Ina Lorimer as "Sarah Spiphins." Others contributing to the evening's entertainment are Hyde Clarke, Lance O'Dare, and Nellie St. Denise." Incidentally, the term "revuesical is new to me, and it does not seem to have caught on. These scattered references might seem to indicate a musical of only modest impact, but a review in the Hull Daily Mail on January 22, 1935, seems to imply greater success: "The Two Leslies (Holmes and Sarony) have not previously appeared at a Hull theatre. They have become known to us mainly through the radio, yet when the Tivoli curtain was raised for them last night they received a reception that any old stager might well have envied. Song writers may be numerous; "hit"-song writers are not so numerous; and songster-"hit"-song-writers are but few. Of the latter class are these Leslies, writing all their own material, and scoring "hits" nearly all the time. Think of "Rhymes," "Tweet, tweet," "Ain't it grand to be blooming-well dead?" "The Old Sow," "Wheezy Anna"-and wait for "Try" and "Bob's Your Uncle" (this last title will eclipse all the rest)." Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) The next example is more mysterious. It appears in the Essex Newsman on March 3, 1928, and is headed "Bob's Your Uncle." It reads in full: Mr. A.H. Solder (Bob's your Uncle) wishes to THANK all good friends for their congratulations on his successfully defending the action in the High Courts this week.-Advt." It is not clear whether the otherwise unknown Mr. Solder was referring to some connection with the musical, or if the phrase had some other significance. Card Game The next example is again hard to decipher, although not as confounding as the Essex Newsman item. It's from a description in the Hull Daily Mail, November 12, 1932, of a dance and whist tournament held by the Plumbers', Glaziers' and Domestic Engineers' Union: "Whist was played in the Windsor Rooms, where the winners included Mr E. Walton and Mrs Rickett, Mr and Mrs Andrews, Mr Whitehead, Key and Co., "Bob's your Uncle," "Not Sharks," and "Ham and Cheese." Here "Bob's your Uncle" apparently refers to a card game. There was an advertisement for "Bob's your Uncle," a party card game selling for 1s 6d, in the (Dundee) Evening Telegraph and Post on October 18, 1935, and there are various advertisements for it thereafter. Racehorses A racehorse named Bob won the Derby Cup on November 18, 1932. In writing about this event, the Dundee Courier on November 19, 1932, wrote, "It was a case of "Bob's your uncle" at Derby yesterday, for the three-year-old of that name put up a splendid performance to win the Derby Cup." This seems to show that the catch-phrase was in use by then, although we have not yet seen an actual example of its use. Of course, it's possible that that writer was inspired only by the musical comedy or the card game. Subsequently, a different horse was actually named Bob's Your Uncle and had a racing career beginning in 1936. The first reference to it is in the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer on June 2, 1936, and there are various references thereafter. The Modern Phrase A reasonably clear example of the phrase in its contemporary use shows up in the Chelmsford Chronicle, December 11, 1936, in an account of an arrest for drunk driving. The motorist is quoted as saying, " I have been a naughty boy. Had one over the eight. Not so bad. Bob's your uncle." The period after "Not so bad" is missing in this newspaper, but included when the same account was printed elsewhere. A better example comes from the Yorkshire Evening Post on January 11, 1937, in an account by a parson of a conversation with a man who thought he had an easy job: "'So long as you behave yourself, nurse your congregation, say a few commonplace and trite things to your folk every week, Bob's your uncle.' For the moment I could not recall an avuncular Robert, but I knew what my acquaintance meant." Assessment While I previously thought of "Bob's your uncle" as a cockney expression, this history seems pretty clearly to show origins in Scotland and northern England. Might the musical comedy have been enough to spawn the phrase? Or was it named for a pre-existing catch-phrase, perhaps deriving from the adjectives "bob" and "bobbish," meaning well or in good health and spirits, or the related phrase "all is bob," meaning that everything is safe, pleasant and satisfactory? In any case, there does not seem to be any support for the theory that it relates to the appointment of Arthur Balfour by his uncle, Robert Cecil, as chief secretary of Ireland in 1887, see http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bob1.htm. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Aug 26 12:35:06 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:35:06 +0000 Subject: Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course your contribution was not a waste. I agree with you, for example, in doubting the proposed origin involving Robert Cecil. Stephen ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society ... on behalf of Baker, John ... Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 8:10 AM ... Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Bob's Your Uncle: Antedating and History Thanks. I don't know why my search didn't find these posts. However, I was able to confirm the 1924 dating and add quite a bit to the history from 1924 to 1937, so I think my contribution was not the waste I feared. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 14:15:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: More from CNN In-Reply-To: <201408261156.s7QBMNjt000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Startling new audio details the shooting." All it does it provide additional details: the sound of shots. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe "amazed" is closer to what he was thinking. > > Amazement is pretty necessary to awe. > > JL > > > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Pastor in Ferguson: > > > > "I was in awe when I heard" that experts had detected ten shots on a > > recording of the incident, because "I heard eleven shots." > > > > "in awe" = shocked. > > > > JL > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > "The worst part for her will be the home-going service." > > > > > > I.e., the funeral service. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Reporter in Ferguson: > > > > > > > > "It's quiet here. Sort of solemnfied." > > > > > > > > No OED, no DARE. > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Attorney commentator today: "part of the analyzation." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Joel S. Berson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > At 8/18/2014 03:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >"The police are using illegal weapondry." > > > > > > > > > > > > They haven't yet used water hoses. > > > > > > > > > > > > JSB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The prosecuting attorney has shown some biasness." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to compress into one short-circuited > > > pseudo-sociological > > > > > > mass > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > specific ideas like "thought of as different" or > > "discriminated > > > > > > against" > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > "victimized by authority" or worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are Aleuts, for example, "othered" by non-Aleuts? Beats > me, > > > but > > > > if > > > > > > so it > > > > > > > > > can't be good. Nor would it be easy to debate such an > > > assertion. > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > ethnic > > > > > > > > > designation, including self-designation, presupposes some > > > degree > > > > of > > > > > > > > > "otherness" from, you know, the "other." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1991 in Google Books (not checked): "Lesbian and gay > > > > readers...most > > > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > > have always felt the sting of invisibility and the > persistent > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > being othered in everything from MacDonald's' ads to > Jacques > > > > > Lacan." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Wilson Gray < > > > hwgray at gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society < > > > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: More from CNN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter < > > > > > > > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Black people in this country are constantly othered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damn! A brother can't catch a break! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > -Wilson > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a > strange > > > > > > complaint to > > > > > > > > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > > > > > > > > > -Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > > handle > > > > the > > > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't > handle > > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle > > the > > > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > > truth." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > > truth." > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > > truth." > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 14:18:48 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:18:48 -0400 Subject: -peat Message-ID: "Modern Family had just five-peated as best comedy." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 16:15:55 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:15:55 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240324.s7O2TgvF019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gerald Cohen wrote: > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have > the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is > t o make them nervous. > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred to delirium tremens (DTs). A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the willies referred to the DTs. [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] Hasn't Got 'Willies," And He's Hot After His "Esteemed Contemporary." CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- tion of character. Editor Roberts in commenting on an article that appeared in the Times states that Mr. Morris had the "willies." The amount of damage that will be asked for is $100,000. [End excerpt] The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a frightening appearance and warned his friend. The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period of abstinence. [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP http://books.google.com/books?id=ngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=+willys#v=snippet [Begin excerpt] Thought They "Had 'em." TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with the Roman nose. "What!" ejaculated the man with the full beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to happen?" "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe side. I thought last night it had happened. I think so yet." "What - the willys?" asked he of the beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- tuck. [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' "'What's the matter? I asked. "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to get away. I made up my mind he had 'em --you know--the willys. I made him walk along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps when we saw something coming. It was dressed like a man, but was as thin as a skeleton. It went past us quietly. [End excerpt] In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano and Hamilton felt remorse. [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 http://books.google.com/books?id=U-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=willies#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] He stood dazed. What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune and give us something spicy." "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 17:14:32 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 13:14:32 -0400 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: <201408232118.s7NGj1Jl019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > > In an article about a high school football game in the Huntsville Times. http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/113/not/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 26 18:56:50 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:56:50 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408240341.s7O2TgwJ019822@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson O'Toole has provided some nice citations showing early uses of "the willies." Looking a bit more, I have found other citations in the nineteenth century that talk about the Willies as supernatural beings. In addition to these, a few more nineteenth-century citations can be found for "the villies" on Google Books (http://bit.ly/1zzMK4b). In 1841, the opera "Giselle, or The Wilis" (or "La Giselle") was first performed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giselle) in Paris. Wikipedia says the idea of the wilis in the opera comes from "Elementargeister" (1837) by Heinrich Heine and "Les Orientales" (1828 or 1829) by Victor Hugo. Wikipedia says the opera was "hugely popular," staged across Europe, Russia and the US. "La Giselle" appears in "Beauties of the Opera and Ballet" (not dated), and the word "Wilis" appears on five pages (http://bit.ly/1vjqMoi). In 1846, "The Knickerbocker: Or, New-York Monthly Magazine," vol. 27 has a review of "Giselle" with mention of the Willies (http://bit.ly/YWuCWT), and "The Pioneer: Or, California Monthly Magazine" does the same in 1854 (http://bit.ly/VPIvnC). In 1848, "The Gentleman's Magazine" mentions the Wilis as being "the most peculiar images of Servian [i.e., Serbian] fantasy" (http://bit.ly/1rxZrht). In 1862, "The Queen of the Danube: A Story of Montenegro" by X.B. Saintine, translated from French by Anne T. Wood, mentions the Willies as being Servian (http://bit.ly/1qqlN1w). The wilis tale is told in "A Norseman's Pilgrimage" (1875) by Hjalmar Hjorth Boyesen with the spelling "Willies" (http://bit.ly/1qqh3sN). In 1879, the Extravaganzas of J.R. Planch?, esq., mentions the Wilis (http://bit.ly/YWvElU). FWIW, there is also "a general meeting of the Willies o' the Wisp" in "London Society," vol. 11 (1867) (http://bit.ly/1q2i76n), and in 1883, there is mention of birds called "willies" in "The Sunday Magazine" (http://bit.ly/1wxXC6j). Still no direct tie to the expression "the willies," but it seems clear that the willies/villies were well known as supernatural beings throughout at least most of the nineteenth century. Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > The Inspector, Literary Magazine and Review, Volume 2, London: 1827, has = > a story called "The Willi-Dance. / An Hungarian Legend." and says = > (http://bit.ly/1ps7xFC): > > ----- > More than all, loved Emelka to hear the legend of the Willi-dance, which = > the crone always thus began=97" Every maiden "who dies, when she is = > betrothed, is called a Willi. The Willies wander "restless on the earth, = > and hold their nightly dances wherever roads "meet; if any man then = > meets them, they dance with him till he dies; "he is then the bridegroom = > of the youngest Willi, who thereby at last "is enabled to rest; such a = > one is my sister. Ah! often have I seen "her in the moon-beam,"=97and = > then followed the tale of the lover, the sorrows and the death of the = > poor young maiden. In stories like this, of the region of spirits, the = > luckless Emelka sought to forget the bitterness of earthly suffering. > ----- > > See also = > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural_beings_in_Slavic_folklore. > > I have no proof that this is the origin, but it certainly seems like a = > good starting point. > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > > On Aug 23, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = > wrote: > >> This is my final attempt. (My earlier two messages included quoted = > material=3D >> from OED3; maybe that's what made my >> =20 >> first two e-mails come out as gibberish.) >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have = > the =3D >> willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> =20 >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' = > is t=3D >> o make them nervous. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? >> =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 26 19:04:14 2014 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 19:04:14 +0000 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261615.s7QFCiQd000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done some checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin "willies", viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that goes by several names. Wikipedia writes: '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter"... is a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, Canada, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into the forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many variants of the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry Polly but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, he is haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English ballad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven Harvey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says: '?Come go along with me,? Willie insists as he leads Polly into the woods, ?before we get married some pleasure to see.? She is reluctant and afraid, bearing that he will lead her ?poor body astray.? ?There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in what Polly says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with the most chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the perfect foil to her na?vet?. ?Oh Polly, pretty Polly, you?re guessin? about right,? he says,...?I dug on your grave the best part of the night.?? This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if his name was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By this interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary development. Gerald Cohen ________________________________________ ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:15 AM, wrote: Gerald Cohen wrote: > So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have > the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > > It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is > t o make them nervous. > > Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred to delirium tremens (DTs). A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the willies referred to the DTs. [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] Hasn't Got 'Willies," And He's Hot After His "Esteemed Contemporary." CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- tion of character. Editor Roberts in commenting on an article that appeared in the Times states that Mr. Morris had the "willies." The amount of damage that will be asked for is $100,000. [End excerpt] The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a frightening appearance and warned his friend. The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period of abstinence. [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP http://books.google.com/books?id=ngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=+willys#v=snippet [Begin excerpt] Thought They "Had 'em." TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with the Roman nose. "What!" ejaculated the man with the full beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to happen?" "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe side. I thought last night it had happened. I think so yet." "What - the willys?" asked he of the beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- tuck. [End excerpt] [Begin excerpt] "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' "'What's the matter? I asked. "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to get away. I made up my mind he had 'em --you know--the willys. I made him walk along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps when we saw something coming. It was dressed like a man, but was as thin as a skeleton. It went past us quietly. [End excerpt] In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano and Hamilton felt remorse. [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 http://books.google.com/books?id=U-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=willies#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] He stood dazed. What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune and give us something spicy." "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 26 19:27:39 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 12:27:39 -0700 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261904.s7QIcOpv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. BB On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done some = > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin "willies", = > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that goes= > by several names. Wikipedia writes: > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter"... i= > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, Cana= > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into the = > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many variants of = > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry Poll= > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, he i= > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English ball= > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven Harv= > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=20 > '=93Come go along with me,=94 Willie insists as he leads Polly into the= > woods, =93before we get married some pleasure to see.=94 She is reluctant= > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =93poor body astray.=94 = > = > =20 > =91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in what Poll= > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with the m= > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the perf= > ect foil to her na=EFvet=E9. =93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, you=92re guessin= > =92 about right,=94 he says,...=93I dug on your grave the best part of the = > night.=94=92=20 > > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if his n= > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By this= > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary development= > .=20 > > Gerald Cohen=20 > ________________________________________ > > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:= > 15 AM, wrote:=20 > > Gerald Cohen wrote: >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in "give/have >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the willies' is >> t o make them nervous. >> >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred > to delirium tremens (DTs). > > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the > willies referred to the DTs. > > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] > > [Begin excerpt] > Hasn't Got 'Willies," > > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed > Contemporary." > > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- > tion of character. Editor Roberts in > commenting on an article that appeared > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had > the "willies." The amount of damage > that will be asked for is $100,000. > [End excerpt] > > > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a > frightening appearance and warned his friend. > > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period > of abstinence. > > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] > > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D+willys#v=3Dsnippet > > [Begin excerpt] > Thought They "Had 'em." > > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE > > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with > the Roman nose. > > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to > happen?" > > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe > side. I thought last night it had happened. > I think so yet." > > "What - the willys?" asked he of the > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- > tuck. > [End excerpt] > > [Begin excerpt] > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' > "'What's the matter? I asked. > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em > --you know--the willys. I made him walk > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps > when we saw something coming. It was > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a > skeleton. It went past us quietly. > [End excerpt] > > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano > and Hamilton felt remorse. > > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] > > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3Dwillies#v=3Dsnippet& > > [Begin excerpt] > He stood dazed. > > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune > and give us something spicy." > > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" > > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. > [End excerpt] > > Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 20:03:23 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:03:23 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408261927.s7QIcO6b000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Any connection between Gosport Willie and "the willies" is clearly fanciful. Who on earth would pluralize the proper name of a murderer in a ballad and then attach it to the DTs? HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be pretty rare. JL On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the > willies" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" = > (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems = > to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. = > BB > > On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = > wrote: > > >=20 > > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done = > some =3D > > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin = > "willies", =3D > > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that = > goes=3D > > by several names. Wikipedia writes: > > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's = > Carpenter"... i=3D > > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, = > Cana=3D > > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. > > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into = > the =3D > > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many = > variants of =3D > > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry = > Poll=3D > > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, = > he i=3D > > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' > > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English = > ball=3D > > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven = > Harv=3D > > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=3D20 > > '=3D93Come go along with me,=3D94 Willie insists as he leads Polly = > into the=3D > > woods, =3D93before we get married some pleasure to see.=3D94 She is = > reluctant=3D > > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =3D93poor body astray.=3D94 = > =3D > > = > =3D > > = > =3D20 > > =3D91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in = > what Poll=3D > > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with = > the m=3D > > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the = > perf=3D > > ect foil to her na=3DEFvet=3DE9. =3D93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, = > you=3D92re guessin=3D > > =3D92 about right,=3D94 he says,...=3D93I dug on your grave the best = > part of the =3D > > night.=3D94=3D92=3D20 > >=20 > > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if = > his n=3D > > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By = > this=3D > > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary = > development=3D > > .=3D20 > >=20 > > Gerald Cohen=3D20 > > ________________________________________ > >=20 > > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, = > 2014 11:=3D > > 15 AM, wrote:=3D20 > >=20 > > Gerald Cohen wrote: > >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in = > "give/have > >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." > >>=20 > >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the = > willies' is > >> t o make them nervous. > >>=20 > >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? > >=20 > > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred > > to delirium tremens (DTs). > >=20 > > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper > > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of > > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other > > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full > > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I > > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the > > willies referred to the DTs. > >=20 > > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote > > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > Hasn't Got 'Willies," > >=20 > > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed > > Contemporary." > >=20 > > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - > > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this > > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- > > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- > > tion of character. Editor Roberts in > > commenting on an article that appeared > > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had > > the "willies." The amount of damage > > that will be asked for is $100,000. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > >=20 > > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two > > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were > > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". > > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a > > frightening appearance and warned his friend. > >=20 > > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was > > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair > > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of > > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period > > of abstinence. > >=20 > > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They > > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column > > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] > >=20 > > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D3D+willys#v=3D3Dsnip= > pet > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > Thought They "Had 'em." > >=20 > > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES > > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE > >=20 > > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with > > the Roman nose. > >=20 > > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full > > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to > > happen?" > >=20 > > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking > > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe > > side. I thought last night it had happened. > > I think so yet." > >=20 > > "What - the willys?" asked he of the > > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- > > tuck. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' > > "'What's the matter? I asked. > > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to > > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em > > --you know--the willys. I made him walk > > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps > > when we saw something coming. It was > > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a > > skeleton. It went past us quietly. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named > > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with > > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at > > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano > > and Hamilton felt remorse. > >=20 > > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 > > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two > > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, > > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] > >=20 > > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 > > = > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3Dwillies#v=3D3Dsnip= > pet& > >=20 > > [Begin excerpt] > > He stood dazed. > >=20 > > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a > > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune > > and give us something spicy." > >=20 > > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" > >=20 > > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The > > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. > > [End excerpt] > >=20 > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 26 22:47:08 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 18:47:08 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." Message-ID: Better or worse than "I had a baby skunk who's name was Pepe"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bhneed at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 00:22:01 2014 From: bhneed at GMAIL.COM (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 20:22:01 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408262247.s7QKvVLT000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As an utterance, fine. But in writing it needs a semi-colon. Barbara Barbara Need Etna On 26 Aug 2014, at 6:47 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Better or worse than > > "I had a baby skunk who's name was Pepe"? > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 00:35:06 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 08:35:06 +0800 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270022.s7QNoJkb000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Prescriptive S&M: Humiliation & Schadenfreude in the classroom. Mmm ... Feels so good. Do it again. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 27 01:31:25 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:31:25 -0400 Subject: "Hurdy-Gurdy" Message-ID: Hoboken. -- The houses of refreshment in Hoboken were jammed at intervals with transient visitors, . . . and indeed we have never witnessed a more lively scene than that which presented itself along the various walks and pathways to the Sybil's Cave, and the large saloon still further on, at which extremity was placed, in the middle of an open space, a "roundabout," or properly termed a "Hurdy-Gurdy". . . . At the further end of the saloon stood a "locomotive theatre," which furnished lots of fun for the folks who thronged that vicinity. Entombed within its walls were wonders never before offered to the community. NY Herald, July 6, 1845, p. 1, cols. 1-5 [from a summary of the celebrations on the 4th] The definitions of "hurdy-gurdy" in the OED start with*1 a.* A musical instrument of rustic origin resembling the lute or guitar, and having strings (two or more of which are tuned so as to produce a drone), which are sounded by the revolution of a rosined wheel turned by the left hand, the notes of the melody being obtained by the action of keys which ?stop? the strings and are played by the right hand; thus combining the characteristics of instruments of the bowed and the clavier kinds. and include hurdy-gurdy house n. *N. Amer. Hist.* a disreputable type of cheap dance-hall. 1866 *Beadle's Monthly* Oct. 280/1 Hurdy-gurdy houses, with dancing~girls, music, and long bars. 1874 T. B. Aldrich *Prudence Palfrey* vii. 115 At sundown the dance-house would open,?the Hurdy-Gurdy House, as it was called. *roundabout 4.* orig. and chiefly *Brit.* *a.* A revolving machine or apparatus on which people (esp. children) may ride for amusement, *spec.* one in a fairground or playground; = merry-go-round n. 1 . 1763 *Brit. Mag.* *4* 50 There was a round-about for children to ride in, and all sorts of toys sold as at other fairs. 1795 C. Este *Journey through Flanders* 53 There is a round-about as in the apparatus for second childhood at Chantilli. 1813 *Sporting Mag.* *42* 20 There were the usual swings, ups-and-downs and roundabouts. 1874 *35th Rep. Prisons in Scotl.* 220 A recreation ground is prepared for the warders' children, and fitted with swings, see-saws, and roundabouts. Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. Caution is necessary in not standing too near. N-Y D Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 Melancholy Accident. -- We regret to learn that a young man and a child were yesterday seriously injured by being run over by one of the cars on the circular railway upon the lawn at Hoboken. N-Y Spectator, September 4, 1834, p. 1, col. 4 The circular swing and the flying horses were put in motion; the "Schiller band" raised their sturdy chorus; and the Gymnasts exhibited their agility in all manly feats. N-Y D Tribune, May 21, 1850, p. 1, col. 3 -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 27 01:44:17 2014 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:44:17 -0400 Subject: "Hurdy-Gurdy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks: This message got sent very prematurely. I intended to point out that the musical instrument did require a turning motion in playing it, and that "hurdy-gurdy house" at least referred to a place; and that the recreation grounds at Hoboken did offer a roundabout. But on the whole, the passage seems to indicate a peculiar confusion on the part of the writer. The roundabout *wasn't* otherwise known as a hurdy-gurdy. The second item from the notes on Hoboken's roundabout (from 1834) shows the unfortunate fact that not everyone heeds good advice, such as that offered by the Daily Advertiser in 1831. GAT On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 9:31 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Hoboken. -- The houses of refreshment in Hoboken were jammed > at intervals with transient visitors, . . . and indeed we have never > witnessed a more lively scene than that which presented itself along the > various walks and pathways to the Sybil's Cave, and the large saloon still > further on, at which extremity was placed, in the middle of an open space, > a "roundabout," or properly termed a "Hurdy-Gurdy". . . . At the further > end of the saloon stood a "locomotive theatre," which furnished lots of fun > for the folks who thronged that vicinity. Entombed within its walls were > wonders never before offered to the community. > NY Herald, July 6, 1845, p. 1, cols. 1-5 [from a summary of > the celebrations on the 4th] > > The definitions of "hurdy-gurdy" in the OED start with *1 a.* A musical > instrument of rustic origin resembling the lute or guitar, and having > strings (two or more of which are tuned so as to produce a drone), which > are sounded by the revolution of a rosined wheel turned by the left hand, > the notes of the melody being obtained by the action of keys which ?stop? > the strings and are played by the right hand; thus combining the > characteristics of instruments of the bowed and the clavier kinds. > and include > hurdy-gurdy house n. *N. Amer. Hist.* a disreputable type of cheap > dance-hall. > 1866 *Beadle's Monthly* Oct. 280/1 Hurdy-gurdy houses, with > dancing~girls, music, and long bars. > 1874 T. B. Aldrich *Prudence Palfrey* vii. 115 At sundown the > dance-house would open,?the Hurdy-Gurdy House, as it was called. > > > > *roundabout 4.* orig. and chiefly *Brit.* > > *a.* A revolving machine or apparatus on which people (esp. children) > may ride for amusement, *spec.* one in a fairground or playground; = > merry-go-round n. 1 . > 1763 *Brit. Mag.* *4* 50 There was a round-about for children to ride > in, and all sorts of toys sold as at other fairs. > 1795 C. Este *Journey through Flanders* 53 There is a round-about as > in the apparatus for second childhood at Chantilli. > 1813 *Sporting Mag.* *42* 20 There were the usual swings, > ups-and-downs and roundabouts. > 1874 *35th Rep. Prisons in Scotl.* 220 A recreation ground is > prepared for the warders' children, and fitted with swings, see-saws, and > roundabouts. > > > Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has > constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds > adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant > spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 > feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable > of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who > turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The > circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. > > Caution is necessary in not standing too near. > N-Y D Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 > > Melancholy Accident. -- We regret to learn that a young man > and a child were yesterday seriously injured by being run over by one of > the cars on the circular railway upon the lawn at Hoboken. > N-Y Spectator, September 4, 1834, p. 1, col. 4 > > The circular swing and the flying horses were put in motion; > the "Schiller band" raised their sturdy chorus; and the Gymnasts exhibited > their agility in all manly feats. > N-Y D Tribune, May 21, 1850, p. 1, col. 3 > > -- > George A. Thompson > The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998.. > -- George A. Thompson The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books. Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 01:52:50 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:52:50 -0400 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270035.s7QNoJmv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:35 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Prescriptive S&M: Humiliation & Schadenfreude in the classroom. Mmm ... > Feels so good. Do it again. > The sentence was posted to Facebook by an adult responding to a photo of a baby skunk. My own WAG is that the writer has hypercorrected "whose" to "his" in writing, as opposed to those who hypercorrect "whose" to "who's." A further WAG is that English classes are no longer concerned with the trivialities of spelling, since, WTF?, the point is communication. Surely, no one who reads the sentence in context can possibly fail to grasp its meaning. Unless, perhaps, the context was a service contract. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:06:33 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:06:33 +0800 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408262003.s7QIcOXX000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, < They rise from their tombs at night to seek vengeance, and if any man is unlucky enough to encounter them, he is forced to dance till he drops dead from exhaustion. This legend formed the basis of the popular 19th-century ballet Giselle.>> http://www.aaronshep.com/stories/011.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:33:42 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 22:33:42 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" Message-ID: The name of a country-music group. "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook Etc. Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of what I thought I was hearing. "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 02:45:50 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:45:50 +0800 Subject: "I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe." In-Reply-To: <201408270153.s7QNoJ7v000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 1 <<"I had a baby skunk his name was Pepe.">> 2 <> 3 <> 4 <> The vox populi cries out for the comma splice, it feel so-o-o-o good. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 03:00:26 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 23:00:26 -0400 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408262003.s7QIcOXZ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Based on comments and citations provided by Benjamin, Jerry, WB and JL I think that the development of a slang association between "the willies" and "delirium tremens" would be natural; there is a shared set of denotations and connotations. Supernatural spirits/creatures: fear, hallucinations, madness Murderous entities: fear, paranoia Dancing and coerced dancing: trembling, spasms, uncontrolled motions Perhaps phrases such as: "I have seen the willies", "the willies have me", "I am becoming a willie", "save me from the willies" were shortened to "the willies" or "I have the willies". (You can tell I am not a linguist, and this is an amateur analysis.) The citations connecting "the willies" with "the DTs" occurred a few years before the citations in which "the willies" were connected to the less extreme state of nervous apprehension. Of course, this might be an artifact of a limited sample of published instances. But I think it is plausible that the existence of "the DTs" sense led to the emergence of "nervous apprehension" sense. JL wrote: ...the DTs... HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be pretty rare. Here is another citation suggesting that the DTs sense did survive to modern times: Year: 1978 Title: Basic Psychiatry for Corrections Workers Author: Henry L. Hartman Quote Page 23 Publisher: Charles C. Thomas, Springfield, Illinois (Google Books Snippet View; data may be inaccurate) [Begin extracted text] The first of the alcoholic psychoses to have any significance for corrections workers is Delirium Tremens (291.0). This is that alcoholic condition popularly known as DTs, the "shakes", the "horrors", the "willies", the "heebee-jeebies", the "terrors", the "screaming meemies", etc. There is almost always a long history of heavy alcoholic consumption before delirium tremens develops. [End extracted text] Garson On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Any connection between Gosport Willie and "the willies" is clearly fanciful. > > Who on earth would pluralize the proper name of a murderer in a ballad and > then attach it to the DTs? > > HDAS files have a 1980 in precisely that sense, which now seems to be > pretty rare. > > JL > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the >> willies" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A citation I disregarded was "don't go near the Willies" = >> (http://bit.ly/YWxS4z). It's part of a rhyme scheme, but "sillies" seems = >> to more like it was forced to fit "Willies" than the other way around. = >> BB >> >> On Aug 26, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard = >> wrote: >> >> >=20 >> > My thanks for the replies on "give s.o. the willies." I've done = >> some =3D >> > checking too and have found a possible candidate for the origin = >> "willies", =3D >> > viz. Willie in the Americanized versions of an old English ballad that = >> goes=3D >> > by several names. Wikipedia writes: >> > '"Pretty Polly", "The Gosport Tragedy" or "The Cruel Ship's = >> Carpenter"... i=3D >> > s a traditional English-language folk song found in the British Isles, = >> Cana=3D >> > da, and the Appalachian region of North America, among other places. >> > 'The song is a murder ballad, telling of a young woman lured into = >> the =3D >> > forest where she is killed and buried in a shallow grave. Many = >> variants of =3D >> > the story have the villain as a ship's carpenter who promises to marry = >> Poll=3D >> > y but murders her when she becomes pregnant. When he goes back to sea, = >> he i=3D >> > s haunted by her ghost, confesses to the murder, goes mad and dies.' >> > The name of the villain is Willie. He's bad enough in the English = >> ball=3D >> > ad but becomes particularly loathsome in the American versions. Steven = >> Harv=3D >> > ey's_Bound for Shady Grove_, 2000, (pp. 96-97) says:=3D20 >> > '=3D93Come go along with me,=3D94 Willie insists as he leads Polly = >> into the=3D >> > woods, =3D93before we get married some pleasure to see.=3D94 She is = >> reluctant=3D >> > and afraid, bearing that he will lead her =3D93poor body astray.=3D94 = >> =3D >> > = >> =3D >> > = >> =3D20 >> > =3D91There is, I think,... something of corrupted innocence in = >> what Poll=3D >> > y says. She knows him and knows she cannot stop him. He answers with = >> the m=3D >> > ost chilling stanza in mountain music, a casual, brutal sentiment, the = >> perf=3D >> > ect foil to her na=3DEFvet=3DE9. =3D93Oh Polly, pretty Polly, = >> you=3D92re guessin=3D >> > =3D92 about right,=3D94 he says,...=3D93I dug on your grave the best = >> part of the =3D >> > night.=3D94=3D92=3D20 >> >=20 >> > This guy is a real creep, and it would be wholly appropriate if = >> his n=3D >> > ame was in fact taken to express a feeling of creepiness and fear. By = >> this=3D >> > interpretation of course, the DT's would represent a secondary = >> development=3D >> > .=3D20 >> >=20 >> > Gerald Cohen=3D20 >> > ________________________________________ >> >=20 >> > ADSGarson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM], Tuesday, August 26, = >> 2014 11:=3D >> > 15 AM, wrote:=3D20 >> >=20 >> > Gerald Cohen wrote: >> >> So here goes. I've been asked the origin of "willies" as in = >> "give/have >> >> the willies." OED lists it as "Origin unknown." >> >>=20 >> >> It's of U.S origin, first attested in 1896. "To give s.o. the = >> willies' is >> >> t o make them nervous. >> >>=20 >> >> Would anyone have any idea about the origin of this term/expression? >> >=20 >> > In the three citations below I conjecture that "the willies" referred >> > to delirium tremens (DTs). >> >=20 >> > A short newspaper item in 1893 described a lawsuit. One newspaper >> > editor named Morris was suing another editor for the large sum of >> > $100,000. Morris believed that he was being defamed because the other >> > newspaperman claimed that 'Mr. Morris had the "willies"'. The full >> > news item given below did not clarify the nature of the "willies". I >> > hypothesize that Morris was being accused of alcoholism and the >> > willies referred to the DTs. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1893 February 6, Cincinnati Post, Hasn't Got "Willies", Quote >> > Page 1, Column 5, Cincinnati, Ohio. (GenealogyBank)[/ref] >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > Hasn't Got 'Willies," >> >=20 >> > And He's Hot After His "Esteemed >> > Contemporary." >> >=20 >> > CYNTHIANA, KY., Feb. 8 - [Special.] - >> > F.W. Morris, editor of the Times of this >> > city, will bring suit against Editor Rob- >> > erts of the Lexington Leader for defama- >> > tion of character. Editor Roberts in >> > commenting on an article that appeared >> > in the Times states that Mr. Morris had >> > the "willies." The amount of damage >> > that will be asked for is $100,000. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > The following two excerpts are from a news story in 1893 in which two >> > "inebriates" traveled to Staten Island to go fishing. The friends were >> > unaware that a nearby accommodation was a "freak boarding house". >> > During a long walk one inebriate encountered an individual with a >> > frightening appearance and warned his friend. >> >=20 >> > The companion suspected that his friend had "the willys", i.e., was >> > experiencing delirium tremens. After encountering more freaks the pair >> > ran away in fear. Ultimately, the two did learn about the existence of >> > the "freak boarding house" and resumed drinking after a short period >> > of abstinence. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1893 October 21, Wade's Fibre & Fabric, Volume 18, Thought They >> > "Had 'Em" (Acknowledgement to New York Herald), Quote Page 419, Column >> > 2, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View)[/ref] >> >=20 >> > http://bit.ly/1tzPjmP >> > = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DngwAAAAAMAAJ&q=3D3D+willys#v=3D3Dsnip= >> pet >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > Thought They "Had 'em." >> >=20 >> > TWO INEBRIATES STARTLED BY THE INMATES >> > OF A FREAK BOARDING HOUSE >> >=20 >> > "Vichy and milk," said the tall man with >> > the Roman nose. >> >=20 >> > "What!" ejaculated the man with the full >> > beard. "Holy snakes! What's going to >> > happen?" >> >=20 >> > "Nothing. That's the reason I'm taking >> > mild drinks. I'm going to be on the safe >> > side. I thought last night it had happened. >> > I think so yet." >> >=20 >> > "What - the willys?" asked he of the >> > beard, pouring out a man's dose of old Kain- >> > tuck. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > "'Run Bob! fo' God's sake run!' >> > "'What's the matter? I asked. >> > "'Don't ask me, but run,' and he tried to >> > get away. I made up my mind he had 'em >> > --you know--the willys. I made him walk >> > along with me. We hadn't gone 10 steps >> > when we saw something coming. It was >> > dressed like a man, but was as thin as a >> > skeleton. It went past us quietly. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > In the following excerpt from a story published in 1895 a man named >> > Hamilton was attending an uninhibited revelry at midnight with >> > "champagne, blonde heads and flashing lights". A "befuddled idiot at >> > the piano" started to play Mendelssohn's "Consolation" on the piano >> > and Hamilton felt remorse. >> >=20 >> > [ref] 1895 October, The University of Virginia Magazine, Hamilton '95 >> > by Hiram Thomas, Start Page 12, Quote Page 15, Published by two >> > Literary Societies of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, >> > Virginia. (Google Books Full View) link [/ref] >> >=20 >> > http://bit.ly/1tFKho3 >> > = >> http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DU-JKAAAAYAAJ&q=3D3Dwillies#v=3D3Dsnip= >> pet& >> >=20 >> > [Begin excerpt] >> > He stood dazed. >> >=20 >> > What's the matter, Hamilton; got the willies?" asked someone, while a >> > thick voice called out unsteadily, "Drop that ---- ecclesiastical tune >> > and give us something spicy." >> >=20 >> > "My God!" gasped Hamilton, "Where am I, and what am I doing?" >> >=20 >> > He rushed through the crowd, out of the house and into the street. The >> > cold autumn wind cooled his heated brain and seemed to clear his mind. >> > [End excerpt] >> >=20 >> > Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 03:11:01 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 23:11:01 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd heard about epenthetic L's for some time (Bryan Gick, a phonologist now head of department at UBC, used to post about them here and wrote them up in his Yale dissertation), but I had never witnessed any first hand--with Rs yes, hard to live in New England and not, but not with Ls--until I heard an audiobook of Patti Smith, from a Philly and South Jersey working-class background, reading her wonderful memoir about coming of age in New York (featuring Robert Mapplethorpe, with guest appearances by Janis Joplin, Andy Warhol, Allen Ginsberg, and the rest of the crew) from the 1960s to the 1980s. Both she and Mapplethorpe did a lot of "drawling"--not the southern kind, but the drawlings on paper that you use drawling pencils for. And yes, they would also "drawl" when there was no gerund or participle around. Lots of other local pronunciations ("window" and "pillow" have clear terminal schwas), but nothing as striking to me as the intervocalic and final L's after /O/, precisely in "hog mawl" type contexts. Also in "external sandhi" contexts, e.g. "we sawl it". LH On Aug 26, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The name of a country-music group. > > "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title > > "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com > > "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook > > Etc. > > Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of > "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had > occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of what I > thought I was hearing. > > "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a > nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 03:20:35 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 11:20:35 +0800 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: <201408261714.s7QGXPwv000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Years ago, on Sunset Boulevard, spotted license plate c.1985: <2BR02B>. OIC Vonnegut 1962 short story, 2. (22.8K) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 07:14:06 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 03:14:06 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408270311.s7QNoJQR000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's a blues song in which the singer tells us that the police "took my reefuh-l-out my hand." And an R&B group tells us that they have "roaches [the insects] on my taber." Some black sneakers - even some of my own relatives, if you can feature that! - have a rule that takes the indefinite article "a" and shwa in structures like "one uh these, wanna, gonna, gotta, need a" to syllabic "r." A vehh wee-ud typer hypacorrection! "I've nevuh seener bettuh day." "I gotter go." "You woner go home?" "I needer drank." "I can use me wunner these." "I can digger cool high." Etc. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Hog _Mawls_" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'd heard about epenthetic L's for some time (Bryan Gick, a phonologist = > now head of department at UBC, used to post about them here and wrote = > them up in his Yale dissertation), but I had never witnessed any first = > hand--with Rs yes, hard to live in New England and not, but not with = > Ls--until I heard an audiobook of Patti Smith, from a Philly and South = > Jersey working-class background, reading her wonderful memoir about = > coming of age in New York (featuring Robert Mapplethorpe, with guest = > appearances by Janis Joplin, Andy Warhol, Allen Ginsberg, and the rest = > of the crew) from the 1960s to the 1980s. Both she and Mapplethorpe did = > a lot of "drawling"--not the southern kind, but the drawlings on paper = > that you use drawling pencils for. And yes, they would also "drawl" = > when there was no gerund or participle around. Lots of other local = > pronunciations ("window" and "pillow" have clear terminal schwas), but = > nothing as striking to me as the intervocalic and final L's after /O/, = > precisely in "hog mawl" type contexts. Also in "external sandhi" = > contexts, e.g. "we sawl it". =20 > > LH=20 > > > On Aug 26, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > The name of a country-music group. > >=20 > > "Hog _Mawls_ Plantation" : book title > >=20 > > "hog _mawls_ recipes" : epicurious.com > >=20 > > "I still don't like chitlins, hog _mawls_, or craclins!!!" : Facebook > >=20 > > Etc. > >=20 > > Reminiscent - *perhaps*! - of the "cowl" that I once used in place of > > "cow." By chance, I knew "hog _maws_" through reading, before I had > > occasion to try to guess the pronunciation/spelling on the basis of = > what I > > thought I was hearing. > >=20 > > "Craclins"?!!! In days of yore, pork _cracklings_ were as common a > > nickel-a-bag crap-food as potato chips. Well, in the 'hood, anyway. > >=20 > > --=20 > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint = > to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 08:03:14 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 04:03:14 -0400 Subject: Facebook: "[Name], _bar-waitress_ ..." Message-ID: Back in the '50's, an R&B jam had the verse "Hey, bar-waitress! Give *evvibody* a drank! 'Cause I'm popping... this *mewning* [sic]!" Except for these two instances, I know only "barmaid" and unisex "bartender." The instance of "pop" = "buy a round for the house" is a hapax for me *personally*, but lexicographers are aware of it, it having been mentioned in these very pages years ago. "Mewning" for "morning" is just a jocular, pretend mispronunciation. Google has instances of "good mewning!" But I very much doubt that they are continuations of the "mewning" above. Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hugovk at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 11:12:39 2014 From: hugovk at GMAIL.COM (Hugo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:12:39 +0300 Subject: Antedatings of "fave" and "fav", and a "faving" Message-ID: fave, n. and adj. (OED: 1938) fav, n. (OED: 1935) faving, v. (Not in OED) The OED notes "fave" is especially used in show business, as are these antedatings. For "fav" it says it's as in the results of horse racing, but these antedatings are also showbiz. (I didn't find much via Google Books, but saw the OED's early faves are from Variety, so found the Variety archives which allows free searching, and verified at Internet Archive.) fave ---- Variety, Vol. XXXVI, No. 4, September 26, 1914, page 17: [Begin] Sabrey D'Orsell. Songs. 14 Mins.; One. American. Sabrey D'Orsell is billed as "The Winter Garden Favorite in a Remark- able Song Review," but she isn't living up to the billing. Sabrey may have been a fave at the Garden, but she will have to change her style before becoming a fave in vaudeville, big or little. Miss D'Orsell has a voice, a lyric soprano of coloratura quality that reminds one somewhat of Bessie Abott. But Miss D'Orsell possesses none of that elusive quality called personality. She impressed her audience wrongly at the start, conveying a sort of a "I know I'm too good" idea over the foot- lights. She is singing three numbers, opening with a Scotch number, follow- ing with another semi-classical song, and closes with "Annie Laurie." There seems to be entirely too much of a sameness in her selections, and she could vary to advantage by the intro- duction of a high class ballad. She should also be coached in the manner of taking bows. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety36-1914-09#page/n166/mode/1up/search/fave --- fav --- Variety, Vol. XII, No. 9, November 7, 1908, "London Reviews" section, page 10: [Begin] John Lawson and Co. "Pigs in Clover." Holborn Empire, London. This sketch, or a "Racial Retrospect" as it is billed, is full of thrills and then some besides. There seems to be a moral to the tale on inter-marriage between Gentile and Hebrew. Mr. Lawson handles his part very well, but the act seems to be one of the impossible kind. The piece is probably the most complicated affair on the music hall stage, but Mr. Lawson being the "Big Fav" may save the play- let. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety12-1908-11#page/n9/mode/1up/search/%22big+fav%22 --- Variety, Vol. XXII, No. 12, May 27, 1911, page 14: [Begin] HERE'S BILLY GOULD BY WILLIAM GOULD. San Francisco, May 21. ... Tom Kelly la the big fav.......Odeon Tom McOrath Is the big fav...Portola Will Murphy Is the big fav....Orpheun Its funny how popular these "dagos are out here. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety22-1911-05#page/n133/mode/1up/search/fav --- Variety, Vol. XXIX, No. 2, December 13, 1912, page 14: [Begin] GARDEN'S "FAV" SHOW. The forthcoming "fav" or popular favorite show at the Winter Garden for around Feb. 1 is being placed in prep- aration. Howard Atteridge and George Bronson-Howard are writing the book. Al Brown, newcomer to eastern terri- tory, will furnish the music. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety29-1912-12#page/n51/mode/1up --- faving ------ Probably a one-off, but here's a "faving" verb from 1908, meaning "to be a fave" rather than the recent "to mark as a fave". It's also on the same page as the earliest "Big Fav" noted above. Variety, Vol. XII, No. 9, November 7, 1908, "London Notes" (Oct. 28) section, page 10: [Begin] Topsy Sinden is an old London favorite, and she could go on "faving" for some time to come if she would stop singing and stick to the dance. Topsy is there with much good foot manipulation. [End] https://archive.org/stream/variety12-1908-11#page/n9/mode/1up/search/faving --- Hugo ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 11:37:53 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 19:37:53 +0800 Subject: Query (3rd and final try): Origin of "give/have the willies" In-Reply-To: <201408270300.s7QNoJMT000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Some say has nothing to do with Russian 'Willys jeep' and . But ya never know. (It works for me.) (8^o) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 12:03:17 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:03:17 +0000 Subject: Further Slight Antedating of "Jeep" Message-ID: jeep (OED 1941, HDAS Feb. 20, 1941) 1941 _Corsicana Semi-Weekly Light_ (Corsicana, Tex.) 4 Feb. 2 (Newspapers.com) All Navarro county units are now receiving ... a number of smaller trucks (now called "jeeps" or "puddle-jumpers"). Fred Shapiro Editor YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (Yale University Press) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 27 15:01:01 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:01:01 -0300 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408270742.s7R41VFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From CNN: "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 16:17:11 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:17:11 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271502.s7REipq3000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes. But "declined" sounds so much more polite. Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. JL On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Daniel > Subject: decline > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From CNN: > "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant > reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > DAD > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 18:44:56 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Yes. > > But "declined" sounds so much more polite. > > Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. > > JL Exactly, with an implicit "Thanks anyway". LH > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel > wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: David Daniel >> Subject: decline >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From CNN: >> "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant >> reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he >> declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? >> DAD >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 27 18:54:43 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 11:54:43 -0700 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271502.s7REipq1000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Mac Dictionary: [ with infinitive ] politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment. Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decline) just has "To refuse, forbear." Oxford dictionaries (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/decline): Politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 27, 2014, at 8:01 AM, David Daniel wrote: > From CNN: > "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant > reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 27 19:01:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:01:37 -0400 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271845.s7RGpSFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You mean, "Thanks anyway, deadbeat." JL On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: decline > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > Yes. > >=20 > > But "declined" sounds so much more polite. > >=20 > > Like when the machine "declines" your credit card. > >=20 > > JL > > Exactly, with an implicit "Thanks anyway". > > LH > > >=20 > >=20 > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:01 AM, David Daniel = > > > wrote: > >=20 > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: David Daniel > >> Subject: decline > >>=20 > >> = > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= > ----- > >>=20 > >> =46rom CNN: > >> "In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight = > attendant > >> reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he > >> declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? > >> DAD > >>=20 > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the = > truth." > >=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From david at COARSECOURSES.COM Wed Aug 27 19:20:10 2014 From: david at COARSECOURSES.COM (David Daniel) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:20:10 -0300 Subject: decline In-Reply-To: <201408271855.s7RIsLjb000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sure, but I don't think the passenger politely refused. You can even throw nuance into it, in that a defense lawyer might say his client declined to go along with the cop who was trying to arrest him (as if it had been a request and a polite refusal), and the cops would say "refused" (order and disobedience). In general, it seems to me you decline something that normally you would be expected to accept. DAD Poster: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: decline ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Mac Dictionary: [ with infinitive ] politely refuse to do something: = the company declined to comment. Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decline) just has "To refuse, = forbear." Oxford dictionaries = (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/decline)= : Politely refuse to do something: the company declined to comment Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home On Aug 27, 2014, at 8:01 AM, David Daniel = wrote: >From CNN: In the case of this week's United inflight battle, the flight attendant reportedly told the man to remove the Knee Defender device, but he declined." Shouldn't that be "refused"? DAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4007/8110 - Release Date: 08/27/14 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 27 19:29:15 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:29:15 -0400 Subject: "But it was all for not" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2014, at 11:20 PM, W Brewer wrote: > Years ago, on Sunset Boulevard, spotted license plate c.1985: <2BR02B>. suggesting, as does the cite in the above subject line, evidence (if we needed any) for the "caught"/"cot" merger; neither "reanalysis" would be likely for us die-hard easterners LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 00:02:25 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 20:02:25 -0400 Subject: Quote: "If you were my husband I'd give you poison!" "If you were my wife I'd take it." Message-ID: The famous repartee listed in the subject line is usually attributed to Nancy Astor and Winston Churchill. The Yale Book of Quotations, Brewer?s Famous Quotations, and other references have information on this topic. Barry Popik shared his results in a valuable entry here: http://bit.ly/1qibdsG http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/if_you_were_my_husband_id_poison_your_coffee_nancy_astor_to_churchill/ Here is a link to the new entry on the QI website: ?If I Were Your Wife I?d Put Poison in Your Tea!? ?If I Were Your Husband I'd Drink It? http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/27/drink-it/ The entry presents an attribution to Churchill in 1949. Previous researchers found a 1952 citation. The entry lists the earliest instance of the joke on November 18, 1899. This is only a day earlier than Barry's discovery, but the cite includes an acknowledgement to a source called the ?Listener?. Hence it provides a possible lead to an earlier cite. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 02:02:29 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 22:02:29 -0400 Subject: "_Righty_ is freaking out!" Message-ID: A pun on the "whitey" of the '60's, perhaps, given its context, a headline in the left-wing blog, Daily Kos, and given the usual lefty picturing of the right as white and anti-minority. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:07:32 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:07:32 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' Message-ID: This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in this ad: "It?s an unlikely pairing: The world?s smartest looking smartwatch and the world?s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. But only for some. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:27:35 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:27:35 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281407.s7SDgxvJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never more blatantly as in > this ad: > > "It's an unlikely pairing: The world's smartest looking smartwatch and the > world's stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > But only for some. In this case, I think "stupid" is intended to be read the old-fashioned way, though tinged with irony. The "Yo" app is widely regarded as dumb -- all it's capable of doing is sending out the message "Yo." While some might find this "awesomely stupid," its baseline stupidity is still unquestioned. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 14:38:18 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:38:18 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281407.s7SDgxvJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The label "stupidest" has been applied to the mobile app "Yo" using the conventional pejorative sense of "stupidest". Below is an example: Title: The stupidest $1 million app ever has already been hacked Author: Brad Reed Timestamp: Jun 20, 2014 at 8:30 PM https://bgr.com/2014/06/20/yo-app-for-ios-android-hacked/ [Begin excerpt] Who would have thought that the stupidest $1 million app in world history would have shoddy security? Yo, the inexplicably dumb new messaging app that was created in just eight hours and has raised $1 million in funding, has already been hacked by college students at Georgia Tech. [End excerpt] The statement: "this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is" might be laudatory or critical. It seems to be a specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app that is widely viewed as dumb. Garson On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in > this ad: > > "It=E2=80=99s an unlikely pairing: The world=E2=80=99s smartest looking sma= > rtwatch and the > world=E2=80=99s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, b= > ecause > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > But only for some. > > JL > --=20 > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 15:02:18 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:02:18 -0400 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: <201408281438.s7SDgxIx000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > It seems to be a specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app that is widely viewed as dumb. So is it smart or is it stupid? Obviously, who cares? This is more post-structural than I can handle. JL On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:38 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole < adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole > Subject: Re: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The label "stupidest" has been applied to the mobile app "Yo" using > the conventional pejorative sense of "stupidest". Below is an example: > > Title: The stupidest $1 million app ever has already been hacked > Author: Brad Reed > Timestamp: Jun 20, 2014 at 8:30 PM > > https://bgr.com/2014/06/20/yo-app-for-ios-android-hacked/ > > [Begin excerpt] > Who would have thought that the stupidest $1 million app in world > history would have shoddy security? Yo, the inexplicably dumb new > messaging app that was created in just eight hours and has raised $1 > million in funding, has already been hacked by college students at > Georgia Tech. > [End excerpt] > > The statement: "this promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you > think it is" might be laudatory or critical. It seems to be a > specialized form of wordplay congratulating and criticizing Motorola > on the advertising campaign which combines a smartwatch and an app > that is widely viewed as dumb. > > Garson > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as > in > > this ad: > > > > "It=E2=80=99s an unlikely pairing: The world=E2=80=99s smartest looking > sma= > > rtwatch and the > > world=E2=80=99s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed > up, b= > > ecause > > mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo > > platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, > this > > promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > > > > For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > > > > But only for some. > > > > JL > > --=20 > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From 0000006730deb3bf-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Thu Aug 28 21:36:56 2014 From: 0000006730deb3bf-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (Margaret Lee) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 14:36:56 -0700 Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'Stupid,' meaning great, superb, excellent, originated in the African American community decades ago. (See Smitherman, Black Talk, 1994, 2000). It's in the same category as 'bad' meaning 'good.' --Margaret Lee >________________________________ > From: Jonathan Lighter >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:07 AM >Subject: stupid = 'very pleasing; marvelous' > > >This has been around for some years, but perhaps never moreblatantly as in >this ad: > >"It?s an unlikely pairing: The world?s smartest looking smartwatch and the >world?s stupidest mobile app. And yet they have indeed teamed up, because >mobile app Yo has just announced that 'Motorola is going to use the Yo >platform to release their long awaited Moto 360 smart watch.' And yes, this >promotion is just as awesomely stupid as you think it is." > >For some of, of course, the sense is equivocal. > >But only for some. > >JL >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 28 23:53:05 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:53:05 -0400 Subject: Another post to Facebook Message-ID: by a Virginian speaking a dialect in which "want" and "won't" fall together, clearly: "If I rob a bank maybe I want be arrested" if he, too, a *real* American, can benefit from the amnesty that Oh! Bummer! is expected to grant to hundreds of millions of illegal aliens who have sneaked into the country and taken our jobs. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 00:27:05 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:27:05 -0400 Subject: Dave Chappelle: "Y'all have no idea... Message-ID: how outrageous some of these ads have become. _Here goes_ one, now." Considering that it's Chappelle, (in)famous for, among other things, his fearless use of the magic word - AKA "the n-word" - in any and all circumstances, with utter disregard for political correctness, it's surprising that he would feel that he had to "correct" the innocuous "standard" BE, "here go..." After all, it's *still* not standard English, despite the "correction." Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 02:11:30 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:11:30 -0400 Subject: Copula-drop in BE Message-ID: "Taylor has talent, but this was a great lesson for her. She will represent the United States well, in coming years. However, _Serena still the Queen_." Posted to Facebook by a middle-aged or older black Marylander. As can be seen, the post is in a rather formal style that ought to preclude cop-drop, *especially* in writing. But, it doesn't. I'm hearing and seeing more and more of this unexpected intrusion of cop-drop into formal speech, to the extent that it seems no longer to be a mere slip of tongue or pen. But, Youneverknow. These things of things come and go. Whatever happened to "irregardless" and "forMIDable"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 02:29:54 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:29:54 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" Message-ID: In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost teen years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" Also heard: "Think I won't? 'Cause I will!" Back in '50's StL, this went: A: "Think I won't?" B: " 'Spec' you will!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 06:03:09 2014 From: bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 02:03:09 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" In-Reply-To: <201408290230.s7T0VImJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost teen > years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" It can still mean that, mutatis mutandis. Just replace "record" with "song (played and shared via a digital streaming service)," e.g.: https://www.thisismyjam.com/ --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 12:19:12 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 08:19:12 -0400 Subject: "That's/This's my _jam_!" In-Reply-To: <201408290603.s7T0VIM9000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ever notice how nobody* says "bag" anymore? Or "bread" for money? Diagnostic features of ca1970 America. *i.e., statistically negligible numbers (Inglish "amounts") of people. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: "That's/This's my _jam_!" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > In which "jam" replaces "bag," "thing." et sim. Of course, in my lost > teen > > years, this meant "... is a record that I really like!" > > It can still mean that, mutatis mutandis. Just replace "record" with > "song (played and shared via a digital streaming service)," e.g.: > > https://www.thisismyjam.com/ > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 19:43:56 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:43:56 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again Message-ID: Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a book. But now.... Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ as, "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") The "novels" are chapters. Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' Or is it here already? JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 19:46:37 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:46:37 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408291943.s7TJexiX029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Senility alert! The correct title, of course, is _Bombs Away_. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: 'novel' strikes again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a > book. > > But now.... > > Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ > as, > > "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report > from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." > > (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") > > The "novels" are chapters. > > Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' > > Or is it here already? > > JL > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 29 20:52:39 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:52:39 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2014, at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Last time we looked, it meant any book of narrative prose - or at least a > book. > > But now.... > > Amazon advertises John Steinbeck's nonfiction wartime account _Bomber Crew_ > as, > > "A magnificent volume of short novels and an essential World War II report > from one of America's great twentieth-century writers." > > (That's Amazon talking, not a semi-literate "reviewer.") > > The "novels" are chapters. > > Coming soon: "novel" = 'short poem.' > > Or is it here already? no, those are novellas LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 29 21:07:00 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:07:00 +0000 Subject: Yet Further Antedating of "Sexual Harassment" Message-ID: sexual harassment (OED 1973) 1971 _Yale Daily News_ 19 Apr. 1/5 (Yale Daily News Historical Archive) "We insist," said one of the women, "that sex harassment is an integral component of sex discrimination." "Men perceive women in sexual categories and not in professional categories," she continued. The complaint of sexual harassment was apparently a "new idea" to the H.E.W. team. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Aug 29 23:13:04 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:13:04 -0700 Subject: Cold and hot as terms for yin and yang foods Message-ID: I recall being told a few decades ago that certain foods are classified as hot and others as cold in Cantonese cooking, regardless of temperature (or spiciness) and that a balance is an important consideration in meal preparation. I don't see these definitions of hot/cold on Wiktionary or the Oxford Dictionary site. According to https://ethnomed.org/clinical/nutrition/chinese_food_cultural_profile, hot is yang and cold is yin (and perhaps this is a pan-Chinese concept). Other mentions: Vietnamese: http://bit.ly/1B2pkXD Chinese (bottom of 796): http://bit.ly/XZzN8l Taiwan with a mention of neutral foods: http://bit.ly/Z11xtE Steamed crabs as cold: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/5286-chinese-food-for-the-summer/ Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 23:37:35 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:37:35 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408291943.s7TJexiT029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The "novels" are chapters. So, this is a chapter-book, then. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 29 23:46:31 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:46:31 -0400 Subject: 'novel' strikes again In-Reply-To: <201408292338.s7TMd3oF029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Made up of novels. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 7:37 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: 'novel' strikes again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > The "novels" are chapters. > > > So, this is a chapter-book, then. > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 30 01:07:27 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:07:27 -0700 Subject: North and south for humans and game Message-ID: In "Physical Chemistry" (http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jul/featchem) in Discovery, Karen Wright and James Smolka write, "Preti tells you the bottle contains a synthetic version of that sweetelixir [sic] brewed in nature just south of the shoulder and north of theribs [sic]." The thebluemuse, phd writes, "Most nights when we snuggle up to sleep, I find my way into The Nook, that great place just north of the armpit and south of the shoulder, perfectly sized for Shawna-shaped heads" (http://thebluestmuse.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-13-favorite-places.html). This use is also found in anatomy: "The pulse generator is embedded under skin south of the shoulder - either left or right side of the upper chest," Dr. Bennett Werner (https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/1116021). I assume these all are using "south" to mean in a downward direction as seen on a Northern Hemispherite's map. At about 2:58 in the video "Where too [sic] shoot a deer?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPo7u1Tp5w), BowArrowHuntingsean uses the word south to mean behind with reference to a deer. This seems like a logical extension from the human body. There is also a use for bullet cases: "The annealed part is softer than the bottom part. When you overcrimp, the case body collapses just behind the shoulder. When that happens, the case body expands about half an inch south of the shoulder," J-cat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-286897.html). Benjamin Barrett Formerly of Seattle, WA Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 01:14:37 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:14:37 -0400 Subject: double whammy Message-ID: OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the From line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly reminded.) LH =============== Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants, Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please simply ignore this email. ----------------------------------------------- For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the conference is September 1, 2014. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 01:18:41 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:18:41 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <3D6741F8-2BC5-4324-8E63-05043D731497@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I have the feeling that "south" is standardly used in umliterature to refer to the direction in which nether regions are located. Perhaps the belt can be seen as functioning as the Equator. LH On Aug 29, 2014, at 9:07 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Physical Chemistry" (http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jul/featchem) in Discovery, Karen Wright and James Smolka write, "Preti tells you the bottle contains a synthetic version of that sweetelixir [sic] brewed in nature just south of the shoulder and north of theribs [sic]." > > The thebluemuse, phd writes, "Most nights when we snuggle up to sleep, I find my way into The Nook, that great place just north of the armpit and south of the shoulder, perfectly sized for Shawna-shaped heads" (http://thebluestmuse.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-13-favorite-places.html). > > This use is also found in anatomy: "The pulse generator is embedded under skin south of the shoulder - either left or right side of the upper chest," Dr. Bennett Werner (https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/1116021). > > I assume these all are using "south" to mean in a downward direction as seen on a Northern Hemispherite's map. > > At about 2:58 in the video "Where too [sic] shoot a deer?" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPo7u1Tp5w), BowArrowHuntingsean uses the word south to mean behind with reference to a deer. This seems like a logical extension from the human body. > > There is also a use for bullet cases: "The annealed part is softer than the bottom part. When you overcrimp, the case body collapses just behind the shoulder. When that happens, the case body expands about half an inch south of the shoulder," J-cat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-286897.html). > > Benjamin Barrett > Formerly of Seattle, WA > > Learn Ainu! https://sites.google.com/site/aynuitak1/home > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:26:22 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:26:22 +0800 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xn029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: LH: <> WB's solution: : <> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 01:37:26 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:37:26 +0800 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408300119.s7TMd30r029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: WB: Business only goes south. Because stock markets run by Yankees? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 02:39:32 2014 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 22:39:32 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xn029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Could "friendly remind" be intended as a compound verb? On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: double whammy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But = > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly = > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the = > =46rom line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier = > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an = > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. = > (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly = > reminded.) > > LH > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants,=20 > > Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of = > the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). > > For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no = > need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please = > simply ignore this email. > > ----------------------------------------------- > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would = > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the = > conference is September 1, 2014.=20= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brewerwa at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 02:56:42 2014 From: brewerwa at GMAIL.COM (W Brewer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:56:42 +0800 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408270742.s7R41VFJ000669@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Watchin' a Discovery show about blue-collar pioneers. Wonder if Gick ever run acrost the . Wikip: <<<>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 05:21:39 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 01:21:39 -0400 Subject: "Hog _Mawls_" In-Reply-To: <201408300256.s7TMd37R029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 10:56 PM, W Brewer wrote: > A burl (American English) or bur or burr ( > > _used in all non-US-English speaking countries_ > > ) is a tree growth in which the grain has grown > in a deformed manner. > There's ya ranswer, rat thar: non-US. BTW, an episode of "King of the Hill," the animated cartoon, is devoted to a fruitless effort to acquire such a resource. A "burr," OTOH, is just a weed. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 30 11:08:11 2014 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 04:08:11 -0700 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: <201408300115.s7TMd3xv029670@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: i've pretty much lost track of this thread, but ... On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the > from line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. > > ... > ----------------------------------------------- > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the > conference is September 1, 2014. another possibility is that the writer was intending "friendlily" but reduced it to "friendly" in order to avoid the (as James Thurber once put it) the "lily word". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 11:55:31 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 07:55:31 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408300137.s7U1bOST002792@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." Far more colorful than "more" or less" or "higher" or "lower." It makes you want to hear more news. JL On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:37 PM, W Brewer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: W Brewer > Subject: Re: North and south for humans and game > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WB: Business only goes south. Because stock markets run by Yankees? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 12:18:44 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:18:44 -0400 Subject: North and south for humans and game Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, > often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north > of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." The OED has that sense with a 1978 citation: [Begin excerpt] north, adv., adj., and n. 2. fig. and colloq. uses. c. Higher; esp. in north of (a figure, cost, etc.): higher than, in excess of. 1978 Guardian Weekly 28 May 10/1 Money supply growth for the past year has ended up quite a long way north of the target band - at 16 1/4 per cent. 1991 J. Phillips You'll never eat Lunch in this Town Again 162 So Spielberg tells me the budget's going north. [End excerpt] Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 30 12:37:00 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:37:00 -0400 Subject: tape = 'any form of electronic recording' Message-ID: Sounds so normal it's hard to notice: CNN: "And it's all on cell phone tape!" (PS: But call a CD a "record" and you're marked as a nut/fossil.) JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 30 13:50:54 2014 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:50:54 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I was thinking "friendlily" when I saw it, which is ruled out for the usual reasons. In any case, it's not just this writer--there are many google hits for "friendly remind(ed)". One of those faute-de-mieux constructions, I suppose ("one of my friends' mother", "didn't used to",?). LH On Aug 30, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > i've pretty much lost track of this thread, but ... > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But >> this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly >> because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the >> from line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier >> involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an >> adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. >> >> ... >> ----------------------------------------------- >> For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would >> like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the >> conference is September 1, 2014. > > another possibility is that the writer was intending "friendlily" but reduced it to "friendly" in order to avoid the (as James Thurber once put it) the "lily word". > > arnold > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 30 14:04:39 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:04:39 -0400 Subject: double whammy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2014 10:39 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote: >Could "friendly remind" be intended as a compound verb? Works for me, but only with a hyphen. Today I received an email message titled "First Overdue Notice", and initially thought I was being friendly-reminded -- the "Second Overdue Notice" would be less courteous. But no, aside from identifying the book, the text says little more than "Failure to return or renew the materials may result in fines." and "This item has been RECALLED. Please return it immediately." Perhaps this compound verb will have to be labelled "rare". Joel >On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: double whammy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > OK, I know we're up to the wazoo in cites of back-formed verbs. But = > > this one (last line below) still struck me as interesting, partly = > > because it was addressed to linguists by (presumably) linguists (the = > > =46rom line is linguist at linguist.org) and partly because of the modifier = > > involved; for me, "friendly" is not a possible adverb, so it remains an = > > adjective even when what it modifies has back-formed itself into a verb. = > > (In fact, I've already registered, so I didn't need to be friendly = > > reminded.) > > > > LH > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Dear AMPRA II 2014 Participants,=20 > > > > Thank you for your interest in participating in the 2nd Conference of = > > the American Pragmatics Association (Oct. 17-19, UCLA). > > > > For those of you who HAVE registered for the conference, there is no = > > need to take any action regarding the conference registration, please = > > simply ignore this email. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > For those of you who have NOT registered for the conference, we would = > > like to friendly remind you that the last day to register for the = > > conference is September 1, 2014.=20= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sat Aug 30 16:04:58 2014 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:04:58 -0400 Subject: Early-ish antedating of 'willies' meaning DT's In-Reply-To: <607187227.15251075.1409414435667.JavaMail.root@wayne.edu> Message-ID: While staying in a hotel in Stratford, Ontario this past week I was leafing through some old library discard books they had placed in the room. In the following: The Best of Bob Edwards, edited by Hugh A. Dempsey, Hurtig Publishers, Edmonton. 1975. I found the following: 'Peter J. McGonigle, editor of the popular Midnapore Gazette, has not had an issue of his paper out for several weeks. He has been down to High River on a business trip. As is well known, a business trip to High River involves considerable drinking, and it will be distressing to many of Mr. McGonigle's friends to learn that he forgot his pledge, and, as the local preacher put it, went the whole hog. He was so near the *willies* that they shut down on giving him any more booze, and he became a perfect nuisance round the St. George Hotel, where he was stopping.'(p. 95) footnote dates it as March 6, 1909. originally From Calgary Eye Openers, 'variously published in Calgary, High River, Port Arthur and Winnipeg.' Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 31 02:18:43 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 02:18:43 +0000 Subject: Antedating of "Coed" Message-ID: coed (OED, 2., 1893) 1886 _Cornell Daily Sun_ 24 Feb. 3 (Online archive) Second Cornell Student -- "I've invited a 'coed' to go to the lecture with me!" -- _N.Y. Evening Post_ Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 31 02:27:49 2014 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 02:27:49 +0000 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" Message-ID: coed (OED, 2., 1893) 1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for promoting higher education of women have been circulating a petition to admit them -- co-eds, you know -- to Columbia. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 03:29:57 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 23:29:57 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! Message-ID: Back in The Lou, ca. 1950, I learned "(to) gang-bang" as "(to participate in a) fight between two gangs." That BE meaning has long since been superseded by the WE meaning, "(to participate in a) gang-rape/cluster-fuck," though the original meaning of "gang-banger" kinda-maybe-perhaps lives on in hip-hop and cop-operas. In the course of the reality-TV show, "Vegas ER," a black youth is explaining to an ER doctor how he happened to get shot: "A dude walked up to me with a pistol in his hand. And he aksed me, 'Where you from, man?' I raised my hands and I said, 'I don't _gang-bang_, man.' And he shot me, anyway." Needless to say, sadly, the practice of the gang-rape is also well-known in the 'hood. The act is "(pull) the train" in StL and elsewhere, "(pull) a train" elsewhere, especially in hip-hop. _pull "the train"_ "commit serial rape" Reports of cases and matters determined by the Supreme Court and ... books.google.com South Carolina. Supreme Court, South Carolina. Court of Appeals - ?1997, P.191 and P.192 aiding or abetting his friends in "running the train" or successively sexually assaulting Victim; defendant informed witnesses about "running the train" on Victim before, during, and after incident, and defendant engaged in consensual kissing with Victim, but then stood in room and watched while two of his friends successively sexually assaulted and beat Victim. ... Kilgore communicated this plan before, during, and after the rape of Victim and participated in its execution. Reynolds testified that, at the party, Kilgore told him that they "were going to _pull the train_" on Victim. Kilgore and his friends took Victim to Marseglia's apartment. He invited her into the bedroom for the ostensible purpose of showing her the room he used to occupy. Although the kissing between Kilgore and Victim was consensual, this initiated the series of acts that would lead to Victim's rape first by Marseglia and then by King. While these events were transpiring, Kilgore was standing in the room. http://goo.gl/LMaisK "Run the train" is new to me. "Pull *a* train" is decades older than hip-hop. In 1956, Jimmy Reed, a native of Mississippi, released a side that contained the phrase, "I'd rather see you pull _a_ train" This phraseology caused mild consternation among St. Louisans because, in context, there seemed to be an element of *non*-rape implied: "*see* you" and not "*make* you," not to mention "_a_ train" and not "_the_ train." The same - possible willingness on the part of the female participant WRT "pulling *a* train" - seems to true of the current hip-hop use, too, in the sense that it's many women and one lucky man and not one unlucky woman and many men. Since "pull a/the train" and "run the train" are prosaic, everyday strings that date back to the 19th C., I consider myself fortunate to have found even this one relevant cite. And yes, I am prepared to deal with being told that this and much, much more are to be found in V.III of HDAS. :-( Sigh! - Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 31 03:48:52 2014 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 20:48:52 -0700 Subject: North and south for humans and game In-Reply-To: <201408301218.s7UAC0Nx025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks for those responses to this. One thing that I failed to mention about that definition is that it may have influenced or be the origin of the human/game orientation meaning. BB On Aug 30, 2014, at 5:18 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Newspersons have been saying similar things for several years, >> often in regard to numbers: "The population of Mars is now north >> of 350, but of Venus, south of 107." > > The OED has that sense with a 1978 citation: > > [Begin excerpt] > north, adv., adj., and n. > > 2. fig. and colloq. uses. > c. Higher; esp. in north of (a figure, cost, etc.): higher than, in excess of. > > 1978 Guardian Weekly 28 May 10/1 Money supply growth for the past > year has ended up quite a long way north of the target band - at 16 > 1/4 per cent. > > 1991 J. Phillips You'll never eat Lunch in this Town Again 162 So > Spielberg tells me the budget's going north. > [End excerpt] > > Garson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 11:47:10 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:47:10 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! In-Reply-To: <201408310330.s7UKAdDv025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Once again Wilson beats out HDAS with his 1956 example. "Pull a train" began showing up in print (as one might expect) in the late '60s, but only as far as I know. JL On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Back in The Lou, ca. 1950, I learned "(to) gang-bang" as "(to participate > in a) fight between two gangs." That BE meaning has long since been > superseded by the WE meaning, "(to participate in a) > gang-rape/cluster-fuck," though the original meaning of "gang-banger" > kinda-maybe-perhaps lives on in hip-hop and cop-operas. > > In the course of the reality-TV show, "Vegas ER," a black youth is > explaining to an ER doctor how he happened to get shot: > > "A dude walked up to me with a pistol in his hand. And he aksed me, 'Where > you from, man?' I raised my hands and I said, 'I don't _gang-bang_, man.' > And he shot me, anyway." > > Needless to say, sadly, the practice of the gang-rape is also well-known in > the 'hood. The act is "(pull) the train" in StL and elsewhere, "(pull) a > train" elsewhere, especially in hip-hop. > > _pull "the train"_ "commit serial rape" > > Reports of cases and matters determined by the Supreme Court and ... > books.google.com > South Carolina. Supreme Court, South Carolina. Court of Appeals - > =E2=80=8E= > 1997, > P.191 and P.192 > aiding or abetting his friends in "running the train" or successively > sexually assaulting Victim; defendant informed witnesses about "running the > train" on Victim before, during, and after incident, and defendant engaged > in consensual kissing with Victim, but then stood in room and watched while > two of his friends successively sexually assaulted and beat Victim. ... > Kilgore communicated this plan before, during, and after the rape of Victim > and participated in its execution. Reynolds testified that, at the party, > Kilgore told him that they "were going to > > _pull the train_" > > on Victim. Kilgore and his friends took Victim to Marseglia's apartment. He > invited her into the bedroom for the ostensible purpose of showing her the > room he used to occupy. Although the kissing between Kilgore and Victim was > consensual, this initiated the series of acts that would lead to Victim's > rape first by Marseglia and then by King. While these events were > transpiring, Kilgore was standing in the room. > > http://goo.gl/LMaisK > > "Run the train" is new to me. > > "Pull *a* train" is decades older than hip-hop. In 1956, Jimmy Reed, a > native of Mississippi, released a side that contained the phrase, > > "I'd rather see you pull _a_ train" > > This phraseology caused mild consternation among St. Louisans because, in > context, there seemed to be an element of *non*-rape implied: "*see* you" > and not "*make* you," not to mention "_a_ train" and not "_the_ train." The > same - possible willingness on the part of the female participant WRT > "pulling *a* train" - seems to true of the current hip-hop use, too, in the > sense that it's many women and one lucky man and not one unlucky woman and > many men. > > Since "pull a/the train" and "run the train" are prosaic, everyday strings > that date back to the 19th C., I consider myself fortunate to have found > even this one relevant cite. > > And yes, I am prepared to deal with being told that this and much, much > more are to be found in V.III of HDAS. :-( > > Sigh! > > - Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Aug 31 13:18:01 2014 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:18:01 +0000 Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 Message-ID: Previously it was shown that the phrase has two spellings--on the fritz and on the friz--and two pronunciations, rhyming with "is" and with "wits." DARE, EDD, and OED show friz as a dialect and/or vulgar form of freeze. DARE give a sense of freeze as "to intimidate; to snub," with an example from 1876. Webster's New World has "freeze out [Colloq.] to keep out or force out by a cold manner, competition, etc." (OED and especially HDAS provide many quotations, though neither notes the two spellings nor the two pronunciations.) Apparently not only electrical appliances are irrelevant in the early uses (becoming associated only later), but also apparently irrelevant is the personal name Fritz. The OED June 2014 revision antedates "on the fritz" to Aug. 25, 1900. That quote is from a short play written by 51,682, a prisoner at Sing Sing. Maximus Actorius, "an actor who sees things," speaks a mishmash of Shakespearean English; Umpty Ump Mike replies: "Say Max, I like you all right, but I want to give you a pointer....Now all dis kind of talk is on de fritz, see?"--in effect Mike wants to freeze it out. The same publication edited at Sing Sing, The Star of Hope, Saturday, August 25, 1902 p. 168 col. 3 has a usage that has been noted before here and in newspaper columns in snippet form, though inaccurately, lacking a word [any], and lacking context. (I thank Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster for the reference.) Here is one fifth of the poem "Suppose" by 23,669 of Auburn NY Prison: What would the little acorn do If it had no place to grow? Would Santa Claus be on the "fritz" If we never had any snow? Paradoxically, lack of freezing would freeze Santa out of work. Some resist being frozen out. E.g, Fleming DuBignon, in The Atlanta Constitution, April 14, 1896 p.4 article (from Cuthbert) headlined "Refused To Be 'Friz.'" "There is an evident desire among the administration followers in Georgia to freeze Flem DuBignon out of the race for senate....But the Hon. Flem prefers not to freeze...." *** "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz; It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;...." --Washington Herald (Feb. 5, 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p. 6. col. 3 America's Historic Newspapers) Stephen Goranson http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 13:52:30 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:52:30 -0400 Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! Message-ID: >From a righty website: http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/09/iowa-senate-hopeful-will-use-his-glock-to-blow-your-balls-off/ JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 13:54:35 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:54:35 -0400 Subject: Saying: Advice for actors: Speak clearly, and don't bump into the furniture. Message-ID: There is a famous piece of advice directed at new actors that has been attributed to Noel Coward, Lynn Fontanne, Alfred Lunt, and Spencer Tracy. Here are three variants of this evolving expression: 1) Speak clearly, and don?t bump into the furniture. 2) Learn your lines and don?t bump into the furniture. 3) Memorize your lines and try not to crash into the furniture Fred wrote about this saying in his valuable article "Anonymous was a woman" here: https://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/articles/3064 The Noel Coward attribution is popular in the UK. Yet, when I posted on this topic last week on the QI website I was unable to find any direct evidence that Coward spoke a version before the 1960s. At last, a few days ago I found a relevant citation. Coward used the phrase "without bumping into people" and not the more comical phrase "without bumping into the furniture": [ref] 1954 August 16, Long Beach Independent, The Lyons Den: Broadway Gazette by Leonard Lyons, Quote Page 10, Column 7 and 8, Long Beach, California. (NewspaperArchive)[/ref] [Begin excerpt] The only advice I ever give actors is to learn to speak clearly, to project your voice without shouting - and to move about the stage gracefully, without bumping into people. After that, you have the playwright to fall back on - and that's always a good idea. [End excerpt] More information is available here: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/25/bump/ Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 31 13:55:55 2014 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 09:55:55 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <9350A1B8854EF5468387ECC6847512FA37A0DB27@x10-mbx5.yu.yale. edu> Message-ID: And what were they called at Oberlin, in 1837? JSB At 8/30/2014 10:27 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >coed (OED, 2., 1893) > >1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for >promoting higher education of women have been circulating a petition >to admit them -- co-eds, you know -- to Columbia. > >Fred Shapiro >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 14:14:39 2014 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:14:39 -0400 Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 In-Reply-To: <201408311318.s7VA8NNr030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: While "on the fritz" has long meant "malfunctioning" (solely), it seems originally to have meant worthless or of poor quality. See HDAS, whose primary cite comes from _Life in Sing Sing," by "No. 1500." JL On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Stephen Goranson > Subject: freeze, on the friz, on the fritz--and Santa 1902 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Previously it was shown that the phrase has two spellings--on the fritz > and= > on the friz--and two pronunciations, rhyming with "is" and with "wits." > DA= > RE, EDD, and OED show friz as a dialect and/or vulgar form of freeze. DARE > = > give a sense of freeze as "to intimidate; to snub," with an example from > 18= > 76. Webster's New World has "freeze out [Colloq.] to keep out or force out > = > by a cold manner, competition, etc." (OED and especially HDAS provide many > = > quotations, though neither notes the two spellings nor the two > pronunciatio= > ns.) Apparently not only electrical appliances are irrelevant in the early > = > uses (becoming associated only later), but also apparently irrelevant is > th= > e personal name Fritz. > > > The OED June 2014 revision antedates "on the fritz" to Aug. 25, 1900. That > = > quote is from a short play written by 51,682, a prisoner at Sing Sing. > Maxi= > mus Actorius, "an actor who sees things," speaks a mishmash of > Shakespearea= > n English; Umpty Ump Mike replies: "Say Max, I like you all right, but I > wa= > nt to give you a pointer....Now all dis kind of talk is on de fritz, > see?"-= > -in effect Mike wants to freeze it out. > > The same publication edited at Sing Sing, The Star of Hope, Saturday, > Augus= > t 25, 1902 p. 168 col. 3 has a usage that has been noted before here and > in= > newspaper columns in snippet form, though inaccurately, lacking a word > [an= > y], and lacking context. (I thank Joanne Despres of Merriam-Webster for > the= > reference.) Here is one fifth of the poem "Suppose" by 23,669 of Auburn > NY= > Prison: > > > What would the little acorn do > > If it had no place to grow? > > Would Santa Claus be on the "fritz" > > If we never had any snow? > > > Paradoxically, lack of freezing would freeze Santa out of work. > > Some resist being frozen out. E.g, Fleming DuBignon, in The Atlanta > Constit= > ution, April 14, 1896 p.4 article (from Cuthbert) headlined "Refused To Be > = > 'Friz.'" > > "There is an evident desire among the administration followers in Georgia > t= > o freeze Flem DuBignon out of the race for senate....But the Hon. Flem > pref= > ers not to freeze...." > > *** > > > "Deep breathing is the thing for you if you are on the friz; > > It drives away the devils blue and sharpens up the wits;...." > > --Washington Herald > > (Feb. 5, 1908 Trenton [NJ] Evening Times p. 6. col. 3 America's Historic > Ne= > wspapers) > > > Stephen Goranson > > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 14:52:21 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <201408310227.s7UKAdAp025593@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The term "co-eds" was used in a student publication of the University of Michigan called "The Chronicle" in 1877 and 1878. Here are three citations. The sense in the October 13, 1877 is not very clear. The citations in the April 6, 1878 and June 8, 1878 do seem to refer to female students. Date: October 13, 1877 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Article: Things Chronicled Quote Page 12, Column 2 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We would suggest that a convention of co-eds. he called, and a committee be appointed to wait on President Eliot, in regard to his pamphlet of last year. If he doesn't repent of his course, then our powers of observation go for naught. [End excerpt] Date: April 6, 1878 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Article: Things Chronicled Quote Page 189, Column 1 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Two of the co-eds at Northwestern can sing base. So says the Vidette. [End excerpt] Date: June 8, 1878 Periodical: The Chronicle Volume: 9 Published by: the Students of University of Michigan, The Chronicle Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan Quote Page 252, Column 2 http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] Chalk down another one for the freshman. Two of these gentlemen have the good fortune to live under the same roof with two young ladies of their class, near the suburbs of the town. The latter, taken with an attack of the furor musicus, attempted to favor their gallant fellow-classmen with a vocal serenade, and succeeded admirably, until these young scions of chivalry, thinking to be funny, returned the compliment with a blast from their horns. The indignant co-eds returned to the house, bent upon revenge; and later in the evening appeared again upon the scene with wrath upon their foreheads and horns within their hands. And there beside the evergreens, so glorious and so free, they made the most pan-demonical racket that ever greeted mortal ears. [End excerpt] Garson On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > coed (OED, 2., 1893) > > 1882 _Cornell Sun_ 15 May 2 (Online archive) The society for promoting hig= > her education of women have been circulating a petition to admit them -- co= > -eds, you know -- to Columbia. > > Fred Shapiro= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 15:20:15 2014 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (ADSGarson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 11:20:15 -0400 Subject: Further Antedating of "Coed" In-Reply-To: <201408311452.s7VA8NUr030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My previous message contained a typo in the October 13, 1877 citation. Here is the corrected text: http://books.google.com/books?id=GUfiAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+co-eds%22#v=snippet& [Begin excerpt] We would suggest that a convention of co-eds. be called, and a committee be appointed to wait on President Eliot, in regard to his pamphlet of last year. If he doesn't repent of his course, then our powers of observation go for naught. [End excerpt] The following interpretation seems plausible to me: [[We would suggest that a convention of co-educational institutions be called.]] This fits OED sense A.1. Hence, it is possible that "co-eds" was not used to refer to female students in this cite. But the other two cites still stand. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 22:46:24 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 18:46:24 -0400 Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! In-Reply-To: <201408311352.s7VA8NPx030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Balls!" said the queen. "If I had them, then I'd be king!" A common, nonsense - AFAIK - extension of the simple exclamation used among EM, back when. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "Balls" goes mainstream and polite! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From a righty website: > > > http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/09/iowa-senate-hopeful-will-use-his-glock-to-blow-your-balls-off/ > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 31 23:34:28 2014 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 19:34:28 -0400 Subject: "Gang-bang": It's alive! In-Reply-To: <201408311147.s7VA8NIB030681@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > as far as I [Jon Lighter] know. That's good enough for me! ;-) "My First Plea," by Jimmy Reed, recorded June 11, 1956 "Don't pull no subway I'd rather see you pull a train" Vee-Jay 203 56-406 -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org