[Ads-l] "All art is propaganda."

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Nov 19 12:59:51 UTC 2014


And I know what I like.

JL

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 2:37 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>
> > This website, which claims to be "(t)he only genuine source of Marx =
> quotes
> > on the internet, in which every quote is sourced by a link to the =
> original
> > context,"
>
> Hmmm.  Doesn't seem to include any of my favorites--"I refuse to join =
> any club that would accept me as a member" or "Outside of a dog, a book =
> is man's best friend; inside a dog it's too dark to read" or, of course, =
> "I shot an elephant in my pajamas; how he got into my pajamas I'll never =
> know." =20
>
> And on the topic of art and propaganda, or at least art:  "Art is art. =
> Still, on the other hand, water is water."
>
> LH
>
> > has the following:
> >=20
> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/quotes/
> >=20
> > When communist artisans associate with one another, theory, =
> propaganda,
> > etc., is their first end. But at the same time, as a result of this
> > association, they acquire a new need =97 the need for society =97 and =
> what
> > appears as a means becomes an end. ... the brotherhood of man is no =
> mere
> > phrase with them, but a fact of life, and the nobility of man shines =
> upon
> > us from their work-hardened bodies.
> >=20
> > Marx, Human Needs & the division of Labour (1844)
> >=20
> > DanG
> >=20
> > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter =
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >=20
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>=20
> >> Surely there is a passage in Marx to similar effect, but where?
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> JL
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>>=20
> >>> No editor is mentioned in February or March. W. B. McCormick writes
> >> "Notes
> >>> of the
> >>> Studies and Galleries" in March 1918 though. I agree there is no =
> clear
> >>> attribution.
> >>>=20
> >>> DanG
> >>>=20
> >>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:50 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>=20
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>>>=20
> >>>> Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >>>>> So do we credit the phrase to Guy Pene du Bois?
> >>>>=20
> >>>> The statement in 1918 might be labeled a precursor or an actual
> >>>> instance of the saying. Entries on QI sometimes trace evolving =
> sayings
> >>>> without definitive demarcations.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> As to who wrote it. That's an excellent hypothesis, Dan. Guy Pene =
> du
> >>>> Bois was the editor of Arts & Decoration and wrote many signed
> >>>> articles. His initials G.P.B are appended to the column "Notes of =
> the
> >>>> Studies and Galleries" for January 1918
> >>>>=20
> >>>> But I do not see any name clearly attached to the "Notes of the
> >>>> Studies and Galleries" column of February 1918 that included the
> >>>> target quotation.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> Garson
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>>> DanG
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 1:02 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >>>>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>>> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> Here is a precursor to Upton Sinclair's statement in 1918 =
> expressed
> >>>>>> tentatively instead of emphatically.
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> Issue Date: February 1918
> >>>>>> Periodical: Arts & Decoration
> >>>>>> Article: Notes of the Studies and Galleries,
> >>>>>> Star Page 165, Quote Page 165,
> >>>>>> Publisher: Dexter W. Hewitt at Adam Budge, Inc.
> >>>>>> Database: Google Books Full View
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DhhbnAAAAMAAJ&q=3D%22if+all+art%22#v=3Ds=
> nippet&
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> [Begin excerpt]
> >>>>>> Yet we sometimes wonder if all art is not propaganda--political =
> or
> >>>>>> spiritual and always egotistic.
> >>>>>> [End excerpt]
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> Garson
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> >>>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> That occurred to me too, but I don't see a ref. in GB or Hathi.
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> Prob. Marx said something more prolix.
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> JL
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>>>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >>>>>>>> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>> At 11/15/2014 04:57 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> Not in YBQ, but it gets 30,000 raw Googlits.  I recently read =
> it
> >>> in
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>> movie
> >>>>>>>>> review.
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> 1925 Upton Sinclair _Mammonart_ (Pasadena: pub. by the author)
> >> 9:
> >>>> All
> >>>>>> art
> >>>>>>>>> is propaganda. It is universally and inescapably propaganda;
> >>>> sometimes
> >>>>>>>>> unconsciously, but often deliberately, propaganda.
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> Rather a dilute meaning of "propaganda," wouldn't you say? The
> >>>> relevant
> >>>>>>>> OED
> >>>>>>>>> def. is
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> "The systematic dissemination of information, esp. in a biased
> >> or
> >>>>>>>>> misleading way, in order to promote a political cause or point
> >> of
> >>>> view.
> >>>>>>>>> Also: information disseminated in this way; the means or media
> >> by
> >>>> which
> >>>>>>>>> such ideas are disseminated."
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> Sinclair seems to mean rather that all art exerts some =
> influence
> >>> on
> >>>>>>>>> beliefs, willy-nilly.  As dothose who repeat the assertion =
> (usu.
> >>>>>> without
> >>>>>>>>> attribution).
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>> Sinclair was a utopian, left-wing, progressive Democrat,
> >> Socialist,
> >>>>>>>> Wobbly-supporting pinko, wasn't he?  "All art is propaganda" is
> >>>>>>>> something I could imagine said by Karl Marx.
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> Factoid:  Wackipedia calls the book-length essay _Mammonart_ a
> >>>> "novel."
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> JL
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't =
> handle
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>> truth."
> >>>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> >> the
> >>>>>> truth."
> >>>>>>>=20
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>>=20
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>=20
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>=20
> >>>=20
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the =
> truth."
> >>=20
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>=20
> >=20
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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