[Ads-l] "All art is propaganda."

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Nov 19 17:17:01 UTC 2014


I strongly concur with Joel.

JL

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think in the Marx quote below "artisan" is=20
> being used in sense 1 ("A worker in a skilled=20
> trade, a craftsperson; ..."), not sense 2 ("A=20
> person who practises or cultivates one of the=20
> fine arts; an artist. Now rare").  After all,=20
> artists do not have "work-hardened=20
> bodies".  :-)  The quote seems to be about the=20
> brotherhood of workers (unite?), and their propagandistic needs.
>
> Joel
>
> At 11/18/2014 02:37 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>
> >This website, which claims to be "(t)he only genuine source of Marx quotes
> >on the internet, in which every quote is sourced by a link to the original
> >context," has the following:
> >
> >https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/quotes/
> >
> >When communist artisans associate with one another, theory, propaganda,
> >etc., is their first end. But at the same time, as a result of this
> >association, they acquire a new need =97 the need for society
> =E2=80=80=94=
>  and what
> >appears as a means becomes an end. ... the brotherhood of man is no mere
> >phrase with them, but a fact of life, and the nobility of man shines upon
> >us from their work-hardened bodies.
> >
> >Marx, Human Needs & the division of Labour (1844)
> >
> >DanG
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > >
> > > Surely there is a passage in Marx to similar effect, but where?
> > >
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > > >
> > > > No editor is mentioned in February or March. W. B. McCormick writes
> > > "Notes
> > > > of the
> > > > Studies and Galleries" in March 1918 though. I agree there is no
> clear
> > > > attribution.
> > > >
> > > > DanG
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:50 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > > > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > > So do we credit the phrase to Guy Pene du Bois?
> > > > >
> > > > > The statement in 1918 might be labeled a precursor or an actual
> > > > > instance of the saying. Entries on QI sometimes trace evolving=
>  sayings
> > > > > without definitive demarcations.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to who wrote it. That's an excellent hypothesis, Dan. Guy Pene
> du
> > > > > Bois was the editor of Arts & Decoration and wrote many signed
> > > > > articles. His initials G.P.B are appended to the column "Notes of=
>  the
> > > > > Studies and Galleries" for January 1918
> > > > >
> > > > > But I do not see any name clearly attached to the "Notes of the
> > > > > Studies and Galleries" column of February 1918 that included the
> > > > > target quotation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Garson
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > DanG
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 1:02 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > > > > > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >> -----------------------
> > > > > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > >> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > >> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Here is a precursor to Upton Sinclair's statement in 1918=
>  expressed
> > > > > >> tentatively instead of emphatically.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Issue Date: February 1918
> > > > > >> Periodical: Arts & Decoration
> > > > > >> Article: Notes of the Studies and Galleries,
> > > > > >> Star Page 165, Quote Page 165,
> > > > > >> Publisher: Dexter W. Hewitt at Adam Budge, Inc.
> > > > > >> Database: Google Books Full View
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DhhbnAAAAMAAJ&q=3D%22if+all+art%22#v=3Dsn=
> ippet&
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > >> Yet we sometimes wonder if all art is not propaganda--political=
>  or
> > > > > >> spiritual and always egotistic.
> > > > > >> [End excerpt]
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Garson
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > >> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >> -----------------------
> > > > > >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <
> ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > >> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > >> > Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > That occurred to me too, but I don't see a ref. in GB or
> Hathi.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Prob. Marx said something more prolix.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > JL
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Joel S. Berson=
>  <Berson at att.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >> >> -----------------------
> > > > > >> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society=
>  <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > >> >> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > >> >> Subject:      Re: "All art is propaganda."
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> >=
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ----
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> At 11/15/2014 04:57 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >Not in YBQ, but it gets 30,000 raw Googlits.  I recently
> read=
>  it
> > > > in
> > > > > a
> > > > > >> >> movie
> > > > > >> >> >review.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >1925 Upton Sinclair _Mammonart_ (Pasadena: pub. by the=
>  author)
> > > 9:
> > > > > All
> > > > > >> art
> > > > > >> >> >is propaganda. It is universally and inescapably propaganda;
> > > > > sometimes
> > > > > >> >> >unconsciously, but often deliberately, propaganda.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >Rather a dilute meaning of "propaganda," wouldn't you say?=
>  The
> > > > > relevant
> > > > > >> >> OED
> > > > > >> >> >def. is
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >"The systematic dissemination of information, esp. in a=
>  biased
> > > or
> > > > > >> >> >misleading way, in order to promote a political cause or=
>  point
> > > of
> > > > > view.
> > > > > >> >> >Also: information disseminated in this way; the means or=
>  media
> > > by
> > > > > which
> > > > > >> >> >such ideas are disseminated."
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >Sinclair seems to mean rather that all art exerts some=
>  influence
> > > > on
> > > > > >> >> >beliefs, willy-nilly.  As dothose who repeat the assertion=
>  (usu.
> > > > > >> without
> > > > > >> >> >attribution).
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> Sinclair was a utopian, left-wing, progressive Democrat,
> > > Socialist,
> > > > > >> >> Wobbly-supporting pinko, wasn't he?  "All art is propaganda"=
>  is
> > > > > >> >> something I could imagine said by Karl Marx.
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> Joel
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >Factoid:  Wackipedia calls the book-length essay
> _Mammonart_=
>  a
> > > > > "novel."
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >JL
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >--
> > > > > >> >> >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't=
>  handle
> > > > the
> > > > > >> >> truth."
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >> >>
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> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > --
> > > > > >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't
> handle
> > > the
> > > > > >> truth."
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the=
>  truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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