[Ads-l] locomotives as female

Sun Apr 26 21:02:33 UTC 2015

Thanks, Garson.

I've read Stevens's book, and it's around here somewhere. IIRC, Stevens - a
Jungian - is characterizing the psychoanalytic theories of Freud.

It also seems that nobody began to identify Hitchcock's train & tunnel as a
supposed phallic symbol (at least in print), till after Hitchcock announced
it to Truffaut in 1967. If the placement of the "symbol" could be a joke,
Hitchcock's reply that it really was a "symbol" might just as easily be a
joke.  In other words, maybe he didn't think of it till later.

The possibility that not even Freud saw sexual symbolism in trains entering
a tunnels remains open [sic].

JL

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 6:05 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: locomotives as female
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "North by Northwest" was released in 1959. Below is a citation that
> was published in 1961 (probably). The notion that a train entering a
> tunnel could be viewed as a symbolic representation for intercourse
> was mentioned though the author cautioned against applying this
> analysis in a crudely reductive manner.
>
> Year: 1961
> Title: Freud and The Post Freudians
> Author: J. A. C. Brown (James Alexander Campbell Brown)
> Publisher: Penguin Books
> Quote Page 106
> Database: Google Books Snippet; data may be inaccurate
>
> [Begin extracted text]
> ... and why should child analysts suppose that a child pushing a train
> through a tunnel is simulating parental intercourse ...
> [End extracted text]
>
>
> Here is an example in a 1991 text about Jung. The book is only visible
> in snippets so I do not know how the following passage was connected
> to Jung.
>
> Year: 1991
> Title: On Jung
> Author: Anthony Stevens
> Publisher: Penguin (reprint)
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> Thus, instead of dreaming of having sexual intercourse with his
> mother, the dreamer might see a train, carrying him home, plunging in
> and out of a series of tunnels.
> [End excerpt]
>
> I think Hitchcock included the final scene of a train entering a
> tunnel because he thought it would be funny. He probably did not
> expect the typical filmgoer to understand the humor. When Hitchcock
> stated that the scene was "probably one of the most impudent shots I
> ever made" I think he means that the scene was a prank. He is
> referring to the impudence of a prank.
>
> Switching topics; there is a QI entry for the following quotation that
> is often misattributed to Freud
>
> Sometimes a Cigar Is Just a Cigar
> http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/12/just-a-cigar/
>
> Garson
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: locomotives as female
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'll assume that symbolism general is an important issue to linguists. If
> > not, ignore all that follows.
> >
> > Interestingly enough, Freud himself seems not to have specified trains in
> > the imagination as phallic symbols alone. (And perhaps not at all: I
> > haven't unearthed a quote.)
> >
> > _A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis_ (1920):
> >
> > "Death is replaced in the dream by taking a journey, riding in a train,
> > [etc.]."
> >
> > As I recall, a Freudian symbol means whatever you think it means right
> now,
> > as well as whatever unconscious meanings it holds for you, which, by
> > definition, you don't know about. Thus it becomes impossible to
> distinguish
> > meanings that your mind is suppressing from meanings that aren't in your
> > head at all.
> >
> > Critics of a Freudian bent get around this by assuming that all possible
> > symbolic meanings (especially the ones that they themselves perceive) are
> > stored in every adult's unconscious. Of course, that belief defies
> > disconfirmation.
> >
> > So anyone who doesn't see the train as phallic is repressed or just
> doesn't
> > understand the secrets of filmmaking.  Surely the sight of a monster
> > gorilla wielding an unconscious blonde atop the world's tallest building
> > while he's being machine-gunned by naval biplanes makes everyone think of
> > sex?  You say No? Prove it.
> >
> > If Hitchcock intended the train to symbolize a giant penis, allow me to
> > suggest that it was his business [sic] alone and adds nothing to plot or
> > the character. We've just seen the Thornhills in bed together on their
> > honeymoon - and an attractive couple they are. Anybody who can't figure
> > *that* out definitely won't see the "symbolism" - which then becomes
> > meaningless.
> >
> > Back to the putative [sic] quote in Freud. Is Garson interested in
> tracking
> > it down?
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Dave Hause <dwhause at cablemo.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Dave Hause <dwhause at CABLEMO.NET>
> >> Subject:      Re: locomotives as female
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Lots of hits for the search for "mae west lickety split" such as
> >>
> >>
> http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2012/06/29/selections-from-my-random-house-historical-dictionary-of-american-slang
> >> or http://tinyurl.com/lyuzkaa which quotes "Mae West jokes are in again
> >> (e.g., Mae on phone to Chinese laundry: 'Where the hell is my laundry?
> Get
> >> it over here right away.' Chinaman on arrival: 'I come lickety-split,
> Mae
> >> West.' Mae: 'Never mind that. Just gimme the laundry.')."
> >>
> >> Dave Hause, dwhause at cablemo.net
> >> Waynesville, MO
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jonathan Lighter
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:17 AM
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: locomotives as female
> >>
> >> We watched _North by Northwest_ last night.
> >>
> >> I wonder now what it actually means to say that the tunnel moment in
> >> question, the final moment of the film, is a "phallic symbol."
> >>
> >> Even after our discussion, its phallicity was not obvious to me or my
> wife,
> >> two Phds who spent years teaching freshmen how to read literature.
> >>
> >> Does it mean:
> >>
> >> 1. That had it occurred in a dream, Freud would have regarded it as a
> >> symbol of repressed sexual desire?
> >>
> >> 2. That Hitchcock [sic] placed it in the movie for his own unconscious
> >> sexual motives?
> >>
> >> 3. That Hitchcock [sic] placed it there deliberately to show an obtuse
> >> world that Mr. and Mrs. Thornhill were at that very moment getting it
> on?
> >> (He's already indicated overtly - bed, honeymoon, etc. - that they
> were.)
> >>
> >> 4. That it just means, you know, like, um, sex, and we're expected to
> >> chuckle at how perceptive we are?
> >>
> >> 5. That it doesn't particularly "mean" sex in context, it's just the
> end of
> >> the movie, but that we're supposed to chuckle, as in 4, because only a
> >> hopelessly repressed loser wouldn't think of sex when confronted with
> that
> >> image?
> >>
> >> 6. None or all of the above.
> >>
> >>
> >> Of similar interest (but undoubtedly close to 4, above) is the arguably
> >> gratuitous use of "lickety-split" in the latest Duluth Trading Co. ad:
> >>
> >> http://blog.duluthtrading.com/dry-on-the-fly-pants-snail-tv-commercial/
> >>
> >> A college classmate once told me (ca1972) that "lickety-split" "means
> oral
> >> sex."  When I asked him to use it in a sentence, he couldn't. (Though
> one
> >> may easily formulate an ad-hoc joke about race car drivers and Italian
> >> lesbians.)
> >>
> >> So "mean" can be used to mean "should make you think of, if you're as
> smart
> >> as I am."
> >> Especially sex.
> >>
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:08 AM, W Brewer <brewerwa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject:      Re: locomotives as female
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > <<" Ships should be referred to as _she_, not _it_, even if the names
> are
> >> > masculine.">>
> >> > Moby Dick / Thar she blows!   (Damn, that sounds dirty.)
> >> >
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> >>
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> truth."
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