[Ads-l] Major Discovery Relating to "Whole Nine Yards"

Mon Apr 27 23:35:29 UTC 2015

Below are two more citations on this theme from the same newspaper.
The phrase "six yards long" was used to describe a song and a poem.
Perhaps it was jocular term meaning inordinately long.

Date: February 10, 1896
Newspaper: The Atlanta Constitution
Newspaper Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Quote Page 4

[Begin excerpt]
"A song beats a sigh," says a poet. But
that depends. Suppose a song is six yards
long?
[End excerpt]

Date: July 7, 1900
Newspaper: The Atlanta Constitution
Newspaper Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Quote Page 4

[Begin excerpt]
New and Original.

We have the following poem from a new
hand in southwest Georgia.   It is brief,
but expressive:   . . .

"At another time I think I'll write (if still
  my health is strong)
Of the beauties of this land of light, in a
  poem six yards long:
[End excerpt]

Garson

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 7:11 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Major Discovery Relating to "Whole Nine Yards"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Below is a humorous verse published in 1895 that referred to a "poem
> six yards long" about a violet. The poem was also a piece of violet
> cloth six yards long. So the humor involved wordplay. This citation
> was from the same newspaper as the 1902 citation I just posted.
>
> Date: November 12, 1895
> Newspaper: The Atlanta Constitution
> Newspaper Location: Atlanta, Georgia
> Article: Just from Georgia
> Poem: A Flowery Tragedy
> Quote Page 4, Column 6
> Database: Newspapers.com
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> A Flowery Tragedy.
>
> The poet found a violet
>   Upon the frozen way.
> Blue-eyed and bright it charmed his
>    sight--
> A memory of May.
>
> He took the outcast to his breast--
>   A little pearl of price;
> And marveled much at finding such
>   A tender flower in ice.
>
> He wrote a poem six yards long:
>   His wife--she laid it flat
> By saying: "Dear, that violet
>   Was cloth--from Sallie's hat!"
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 6:27 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Major Discovery Relating to "Whole Nine Yards"
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Fascinating news; thanks for sharing it, Fred.
>>
>> Below is an example of "nine yards" used to reference a lengthy
>> textual document in 1902. This use seems to be comparable to the one
>> in the 1850 citation. The phrase is not in quotation marks. It seems
>> to be comical.
>>
>> Date: May 7, 1902
>> Newspaper: The Atlanta Constitution
>> Newspaper Location: Atlanta, Georgia
>> Article: (Untitled short news item)
>> Quote Page 6, Column 4
>> Database: Newspapers.com
>>
>> [Begin excerpt]
>> The International Magazine of Bill-
>> ville has out a prospectus nine yards
>> long. The editor says the first number
>> of the magazine "will be a gem." He
>> is a trifle short on copy just now, as
>> the favorable crop season has con-
>> strained him to make hay while the sun
>> shines.
>> [End excerpt]
>>
>> This 1902 date is closer to the emergence of "whole six yards" and
>> "whole nine yards", I think. It is very difficult to keep track of
>> this complex topic. Perhaps someone could create a comprehensive
>> article on this topic. If such an article exists I apologize for not
>> knowing about it. Is the Wikipedia treatment accurate and up to date?
>>
>> Switching topics: Maybe Stephen or someone can create an article about
>> the evolution of the lies and statistics saying. Is the Wikipedia
>> treatment accurate and up to date?
>>
>> Perhaps a piece could be place in Comments on Etymology or another
>> periodical? An electronic document with updates to record progress
>> would be nice.
>>
>> Garson
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       "Shapiro, Fred" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Major Discovery Relating to "Whole Nine Yards"
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The phrase "the whole nine yards," which only a few years ago seemed to be =
>>> a product of Vietnam-era military slang, continues to confound our ideas ab=
>>> out its modernity.  I am writing this posting to report on what appears to =
>>> be a major discovery about the idiom underlying "whole nine yards."  The di=
>>> scovery was made, not by me, but by Richard Bucci of Brooklyn, N.Y., who is=
>>>  an editor for the Mark Twain Project at University of California, Berkeley=
>>> .
>>>
>>> What Mr. Bucci has found is a newspaper item in the Bowling Green (Missouri=
>>> ) Democratic Banner, December 4, 1850, page 1.  The item is an article or l=
>>> etter entitled "Third Epistle to Edwin" and written by W. K. Kennedy.  Kenn=
>>> edy was Treasurer of the city of Louisiana, Missouri; "Edwin" was Edwin Dra=
>>> per, a member of the Board of Council of that city.  Kennedy was having an =
>>> intense feud with Draper and was responding to a communication by Draper da=
>>> ted Sept. 20.  Kennedy's Dec. 4 epistle contained the following key passage=
>>> s:
>>>
>>> SIR, -- Your last "nine yards" would be unworthy of notice, as it commences=
>>>  with a falsehood and ends with a lie, was it not that you therein wish to =
>>> create the impression on those that are unacquainted with the circumstances=
>>> , that I had endeavored (had it not been for your shrewdness) to swindle th=
>>> e treasury out of a portion of the revenue. ... I will not attempt to follo=
>>> w you through your "nine yards" in all its serpentine windings, but confine=
>>>  myself to one or two points more, and compare.
>>>
>>> "Nine yards" seems to be a term used by Kennedy to refer to a lengthy verba=
>>> l account.  This exactly matches the idiomatic usage of "whole nine yards" =
>>> and "whole six yards" in many of the earliest citations found by Bonnie Tay=
>>> lor-Blake and myself from Indiana, Kentucky, and South Carolina newspapers =
>>> in the 1907-1921 period.  The fact that Kennedy put the words in quotation =
>>> marks points to the term being a colorful coinage or recent addition to the=
>>>  language.  I think it likely that this is a surprisingly early precursor o=
>>> f "the whole nine yards."  The theory of myself and Ms. Taylor-Blake that "=
>>> whole six yards" may have been the original form, covered in the New York T=
>>> imes on Dec. 29, 2012, now seems questionable.
>>>
>>> Even if Kennedy's "nine yards" is the same idiom as the later "whole nine y=
>>> ards," it does not resolve the question of whether the term derived from ni=
>>> ne yards being a standard length of cloth.  Mr. Bucci believes that "The or=
>>> igins of 'the whole nine yards,' meaning a standard measure of cloth, appea=
>>> rs to arise from the amount of cloth that could be woven in a day by a sing=
>>> le person on a primitive hand-loom."  In my own view, there is no strong ev=
>>> idence for that theory or similar cloth-related derivations (although cloth=
>>>  theories are now far more plausible than the ever-popular concrete-truck-c=
>>> apacity and World-War-II-aircraft-machine-gun-ammunition-belt theories).  A=
>>> s I have written before, "Perhaps the reference was never a specific length=
>>>  of a specific thing, but only a colorful locution vaguely signifying somet=
>>> hing very long."
>>>
>>> Bonnie Taylor-Blake has been the trailblazer of "whole nine yards" scholars=
>>> hip, and I hope that she will post her own analyses of the new discovery.
>>>
>>> Fred Shapiro
>>> Editor
>>> YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (Yale University Press)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
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>
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