[Ads-l] go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
Baker, John
JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM
Fri Aug 21 15:00:30 UTC 2015
I searched for "burton ale" on British Newspaper Archive. There were 1,153 hits in 1900-1909, 479 hits in 1910-1919, 102 hits in 1920-1929, 96 hits in 1930-1939, and 9 hits in 1940-1949. "Burton beer" gets 12 hits in 1940-1949. Part of this is because BNA's coverage is reduced for periods later in time, so that "ale," for example, has only 23% of the hits in 1940-1940 that it has in 1900-1909, but the pattern does seem to show that references had become relatively uncommon by World War II. Perhaps more significantly, I found no uses of "go/going/gone/went for a burton" to mean gone to get a beer or ale.
Several examples of "gone for a burton" just use the phrase to mean "gone badly" - more or less the same as the contemporary British phrase "gone pear-shaped." This arguably includes the 1942 example where "gone for a burton" was defined as "were severely reprimanded."
I see an online poster suggests a different Cockney rhyme, deriving it from "gone for a Burton's suit/gone on a toot," Burton's being a leading British clothing retailer. This seems more plausible, though it lacks supporting evidence.
John Baker
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 20, 2015, at 11:06 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Michael Quinion examined the possibility that Burton referred to a
> brand and wrote that the "most probable candidate, the Burton Brewery
> Co Ltd, closed in 1935 and was hardly well-known even before then."
>
> Another hypothesis that has been raised on this thread is: Burton beer
> referred to a type of beer and not a specific brand. Indeed, there are
> many matches for "Burton beer" and "Burton Ale" in various databases
> in the past.
>
> Bass brewery was founded in 1777 and is based at Burton-upon-Trent.
> There is some evidence of a "Bass's Burton ale". An advertisement in
> 1915 by an importer of Bass printed in a Connecticut newspaper stated
> "Bass Strong Burton Ale / On Draught Everywhere". Perhaps it was "on
> draught everywhere" in the U.K. Of course, 1915 is early. I do not
> know if it was "on draught everywhere" in the U.K. in the 1930s and
> 1940s. Other brewers perhaps made Burton ales, i.e., a drink that a
> pubgoer would call a "Burton".
>
> The databases that I can search in the 1930s and 1940s primarily
> contain U.S. newspapers, so it is difficult for me to access the
> availability of Burton-type beers in the U.K.
>
> Year: 1908
> Title: Culture by Conversation
> Author: Robert Waters
> Quote Page 218
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> Everybody has heard of Bass's Burton ale; but not everybody knows that
> the brewer of the same was made a lord, and is now known as Lord
> Burton.
> [End excerpt]
>
>
> Date: November 8, 1915
> Newspaper: The Day
> Newspaper Location: New London, Connecticut
> Description: Advertisement from Bass & Co., Importers, 90 Warren St., New York
> Quote Page 4, Column 7
>
> [Begin advertisement excerpt]
> Bass Strong Burton Ale
> On Draught Everywhere
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Re: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Garson, while "Cockney" rhyming slang usu. takes the binary form you
>> mention, there are exceptions.
>>
>> E.g., "septic" for "American" (short for "septic tank" = Yank).
>>
>> That isn't the "gone for certain/ a Burton" pattern, but it does show that
>> others exist.
>>
>> I still feel, however, that "gone for certain" is a strained interpretation
>> that smacks loudly of folk etymology.
>>
>> That gut reaction gains support from searches of Google Books for ["gone
>> for certain" + "RAF/ Blitz/ air force"] Those search (remarkably) produces
>> only *two* hits out of a bajillion possible instances - neither of which
>> has anything to do with an aircrew or an airman being shot down.
>>
>> Long ago I consulted Hunt & Pringle's _Service Slang_ for items related to
>> American military slang. The book is one more cartoon-illustrated, quickie
>> slang glossary of some historical, but limited etymological, value.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 11:54 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
>> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject: Re: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Welcome Peter and thanks for sharing an intriguing citation. Extracted
>>> text suggests that the discussion concerning "Gone for a Burton" was
>>> contained within an article that reviewed one or more books about
>>> slang.
>>>
>>> A snippet from the same page of "John O'London's Weekly" did mention a
>>> book about slang called "Service Slang" compiled by J. L. Hunt and A.
>>> G. Pringle publisher by Faber. It is possible that the phrase "Gone
>>> for a Burton" was contained within the book "Service Slang". The
>>> linkage to Cockney slang might also appear in "Service Slang".
>>> Alternatively, the article in "John O'London's" Weekly" might
>>> reference more than one book about slang. I have only extracted small
>>> sections of the full article. It is also possible that the article
>>> author made the linkage to Cockney slang without support from any
>>> book.
>>>
>>> In the Cockney slang examples I have seen the rhyme is employed during
>>> an intermediate stage. The final slang word does not rhyme with the
>>> initial target word. For example, "stairs" is transformed into
>>> "apples". The intermediate rhyming phrase is "apples and pears". The
>>> word "pears" rhymes with "stairs", but it is not used.
>>>
>>> Transforming "Gone for certain" to "Gone for a Burton" does not seem
>>> to match the Cockney slang derivation pattern although it might be
>>> some kind of intermediate stage. (This same point was made by Dan
>>> Goncharoff when discussing the linkage between "curtain" and
>>> "Burton".)
>>>
>>> Year: 1943
>>> Periodical: John O'London's Weekly
>>> Issues 1210-1223
>>> Quote Page 170
>>> Database: Google Books snippet; data may be inaccurate and should be
>>> verified on paper; probing with the year 1943 reveals snippets
>>> indicating that the volume does contain issues from 1943.
>>>
>>> [Begin extracted text]
>>> There are traces, too, of an older argot. The Cockney has taken his
>>> rhyming slang with him into the Services. "Cape of Good Hope" is still
>>> -- as it was in the last war -- "soap"; and "Gone for a Burton" is
>>> "Gone for certain." The compilers regret that, owing to space, they
>>> have had to omit many examples of rhyming slang ; though one may enter
>>> a slight protest that they have noted so famous a derivation as "tin
>>> titfor" (steel helmet) as "seagoing term" only, and ...
>>> [End extracted text]
>>>
>>> [Begin extracted text from an earlier position on the same page]
>>> ... imagine any circles which have not been made acquainted with at
>>> least some phrases of Service slang. My own reaction to reading
>>> through Service Slang (collected by J. L. Hunt and A. G. Pringle and
>>> published by Faber at the modest price ...
>>> [End extracted text]
>>>
>>> Special thanks to Stephen for accessing the journal "Great Britain and
>>> the East" and sharing what he found on the page containing the phrase
>>> "went for a Burton".
>>>
>>> Garson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter
>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Re: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Could be - but that would seem to indicate that the ale really is behind
>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, "gone for certain" strikes me as somewhat unidiomatic, at least in
>>>> the context of air warfare.
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Peter Morris <
>>>> peter_morris_1 at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster: Peter Morris <peter_morris_1 at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK>
>>>>> Subject: go for a "Burton"--a 1944 etymology guess
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> This is my first posting. I hope it attaches to the thread correctly.
>>>>> Apologies if not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a different early (1943) suggested etymology:=20
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/pt3emtn
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Cockney has taken his rhyming slang with him into the
>>>>> Services. "Cape of Good Hope" is still -as it was in the last=20
>>>>> war- "soap"; and "gone for a Burton" is "Gone for certain."
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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