[Ads-l] Quip: If Cobden were alive ... now he would turn in his grave (1879) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Mullins, Bill CIV (US) william.d.mullins18.civ at MAIL.MIL
Thu May 7 15:18:37 UTC 2015


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

If Cobden were alive . . .  he'd be scratching frantically at the inside of his coffin.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of ADSGarson O'Toole
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 6:57 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Quip: If Cobden were alive ... now he would turn in his
> grave (1879)
> 
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------
> --------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Quip: If Cobden were alive ... now he would turn in
> his grave
>               (1879)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> 
>  Stephen Goranson wrote:
> >
> > Somewhat related:
> > "...it would have disturbed him in his grave, to think Glenvarloch
> > should g= et that land back again," said Sir Mungo"
> > Walter Scott, The Fortunes of Nigel (1822) p. 335.
> 
> Excellent precursor from a prominent author! Thanks for searching,
> Stephen.
> 
> >
> http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=3D%22it%20would%20have%20
> > distu=
> >
> rbed%20him%20in%20his%20grave%22;id=3Duiuo.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft86h56406;
> > view=
> > =3D1up;seq=3D9;start=3D1;sz=3D10;page=3Dsearch;orient=3D0
> >
> > Stephen Goranson
> > http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/
> > ________________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > ADSGar= son O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2015 6:58 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: [ADS-L] Quip: If Cobden were alive ... now he would turn in
> > his gr= ave (1879)
> >
> > Way back in May 2011 JL initiated a short discussion of phrases like
> > "spinning in the grave" and "turn in the grave".
> >
> >
> > The OED includes some citations for phrases that contain the noun
> "grave"
> > including "to make a person turn in his grave"
> >
> > .
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> >
> > grave, noun
> >
> > 1. d. In various fig. and proverbial expressions. into the grave of
> hell:
> > into the lowest depth. secret as the grave: kept as a close secret.
> to
> > make a person turn in his grave: said fancifully or hyperbolically of
> > the effect of something which was abhorrent to the person in his
> lifetime. . .
> >
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> >
> > The OED listed citations that began with the year 1585, and the first
> > containing "turn in his grave" was the following.
> >
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> >
> > 1888    J. Bryce Amer. Commonw. I. xii. 159   Jefferson might turn in
> his
> > grave if he knew of such an attempt to introduce European
> distinctions
> > of rank into his democracy.
> >
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> >
> >
> > I came across a citation a few years before 1888 while researching a
> > comical version of the expression.
> >
> >
> >
> > [ref] 1879, The Honourable Ella: A Tale of Foxshire by The Earl of
> > Desart (William Ulick O'Connor Cuffe, 4th Earl of Desart), Volume 1
> of
> > 3, Quote Page 173, Hurst and Blackett, London. (Google Books Full
> > View) link [/ref]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DXOcBAAAAQAAJ&q=3D%22turn+in%22#v=3D
> > snipp=
> > et&
> >
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> >
> > "My dear Harry, you don't understand the rudiments of political
> > economy. If Cobden were alive to hear all the twaddle of the
> > free-traders now he would turn in his grave--at least, I mean he'd be
> confoundedly disgusted.
> >
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> >
> > Below is a link to the website entry about expressions attributed to
> > Samuel Goldwyn and Yogi Berra.
> >
> >
> > If George Washington Were Alive Today He'd Turn Over in His Grave
> >
> > http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/05/02/turn-over/
> >
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: Quip: If your husband were alive, your conduct
> would
> > > make him
> > >               turn in his grave (1898)
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > > -----=
> > ------
> > >
> > > To my mind, there's just something a little bit off metaphysically
> > > in the whole thing.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Garson O'Toole
> > > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: Quip: If your husband were alive, your conduct
> would
> > > make
> > > > him
> > > >              turn in his grave (1898)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > > -----=
> > ------
> > > >
> > > >  Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > But why "turn"?
> > > > >
> > > > > I could understand "groan" or even "shudder," but why "turn"?
> > > > > Just t=
> > o
> > > be
> > > > > face down?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Spin," of course, is simply inflationary semantics.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps the word "turn" is used because it connotes uneasy
> > > > slumber, i.e., tossing and turning during sleep. Death and sleep
> > > > are often metaphorically connected. Current developments would
> > > > reach the dead as dreamlike visions and cause distress leading to
> > > > agitation in an extended implicit metaphor.
> > > >
> > > > GO'T
> > > >  >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >> -----------------------
> > > > >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-
> L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > >> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > >> Subject:      Quip: If your husband were alive, your conduct
> would
> > > make
> > > > h=3D
> > > > > im
> > > > >>              turn in his grave (1898)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > > -----=
> > =3D
> > > > > ------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jonathan Lighter wrote
> > > > >> > I just posted a message that featured the comment, "The
> > > > >> > Founders a=
> > re
> > > > >> > spinning."
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > OED doesn't have it. OK, but neither does it have to "spin
> in
> > > > >> > one'=
> > s
> > > > >> grave."
> > > > >> > Yet the cliche', to "turn over in one's grave" seems just as
> > > > >> > absen=
> > t.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I'm guessing I noticed "turn over..." by 1970; "spin..." ten
> > > > >> > or
> > > > fifteen
> > > > >> > years later; plain "spinning" only in the 21st Century.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The "turn over in grave" figure of speech occurred before 1900
> > > > >> becau=
> > se
> > > > >> it was the subject of a gag in 1898. (Also see OED cite
> further
> > > > >> below.) I discovered this indirectly while tracing the
> > > > >> following Goldwynism
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If Roosevelt were alive he'd turn in his grave.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The Penguin Dictionary of Modern Quotations 2nd Edition has
> > > > >> this quotation and attributes the words to Samuel Goldwyn.
> > > > >> Shakespeare, Tchaikovsky, Jules Verne and other figures have
> > > > >> been resurrected and set spinning in variants of this quip
> > > > >> which has been attributed to multiple individuals. Here is the
> joke in 1898:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cite: 1897-8, The Leisure Hour, Irish Wit and Humor As Shown
> in
> > > > >> Proverbs and Bulls by Elsa D'Esterre-Keeling, Page 709, Column
> > > > >> 2, Paternoster Row, London. (HathiTrust)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It was an Irish moralist who rebuked a widow in the words, "If
> > > > >> your husband were alive, your conduct would make him turn in
> > > > >> his grave";
> > > =3D85
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The OED groups together several figurative and proverbial
> > > > >> expression=
> > s
> > > > >> under 1.d. for the noun grave. Here is the first using the
> word
> > > > >> turn=
> > .
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1888 J. Bryce Amer. Commonw. I. xii. 159   Jefferson might
> turn in h=
> > is
> > > > >> grave if he knew of such an attempt to introduce European
> > > > >> distinctio=
> > ns
> > > > >> of rank into his democracy.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Garson
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --=3D20
> > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> > > > > the
> > > > truth."
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth=
> > ."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

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