[Ads-l] more nominalized adjs.

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Fri Nov 25 19:31:51 EST 2016


> On Nov 25, 2016, at 5:05 PM, Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
> 
> I recognize that my examples were quite ordinary, but they were put in to indicate some history.  The "innovative forms" that Larry refers to do seem innovative (meaning "recent") to me.
> 
> I should, I suppose, have rendered Stendhal's title in English.  But it sounds less recent in French.
> 
> 
> Joel

Also, because of the difference between French and English, "le rouge et le noir" could in principle (although not in Stendhal's case) refer to a red man and a black man, while "the red and the black" can only refer to either the colors themselves or the life choices those colors metonymically stand for via (if memory serves) military and clerical garb respectively.  It's been more decades than I care to admit, both for the book and the excellent movie with GĂ©rard Philippe as Sorel.

LH
> 
> 
>      From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 4:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] more nominalized adjs.
> 
> Right; we're really playing a bit fast and loose and silly.  Joel's and my ventures are deadjectival common nouns for properties, which is quite productive and occur with determiners ("the red", "the bad", et al.).  Then there are the ones that turn a property into a noun denoting those who possess it, which in French can be done with singular reference ("le pauvre", "la vielle") or plural ("les riches") but in English usually only with plural ("the poor", "the old", "the rich").
> But the innovative forms involve deadjectival abstract mass nouns, which can appear without an article ("I know crazy/grumpy when I see it", "I'm done with complicated") or, if with an article, to pick out the property and not those who possess it ("What's with the grumpy?" meaning something like 'What's with the grumpiness?', not 'What's with the grumpy folks?').  I think that's the idea, although probably there's a Language Log post that explains all this more clearly.
> 
> LH
> 
>> On Nov 25, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU> wrote:
>> 
>> French is not quite the same since pretty much any adjective can be nominalized by using it with a determiner of some kind.
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------
>> MARGARET E WINTERS
>> On Leave
>> Office of the Provost
>> Wayne State University
>> Detroit, MI  48202
>> 
>> mewinters at wayne.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 8:27 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: more nominalized adjs.
>> 
>> The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?
>> 
>>> On Nov 24, 2016, at 4:33 PM, Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Le Rouge et le Noir?  The Quick and the Dead?
>>> 
>>> Joel
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 7:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] more nominalized adjs.
>>> 
>>> Combining to suggest a spinoff from _The Young and the Restless_:  _The Complicated and the Crazy_.
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 23, 2016, at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> _The Young and the Restless_:
>>>> 
>>>> "People take time out from the crazy in their lives."
>>>> 
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> United Healthcare:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "I'm done with complicated!"
>>>>> 
>>>>> JL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:20 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2016 _Supergirl_ (CW TV): Hey, what's with the grumpy?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yup, more subjects.  I do have the vague sense that these are (all)
>>>>>>> somehow a bit metalinguistic, and that BCBL questions, for example, aren't
>>>>>>> entirely synonymous with "What does fearlessness look like?" or "Does
>>>>>>> fearlessness age?",  but I won't try to propose an analysis.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dispositive Blue Cross Blue Shield ad:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "What does fearless look like? Does fearless age?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 6:17 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sonic:  "Nothing tastes better than free!"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Am starting to think these nominalized forms occur only in objective
>>>>>>>>>> positions. True?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, at least if we count equative structures:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Crazy is fine. I can go for crazy."
>>>>>>>>> "Cozy is what I like."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Rinse and repeat for other nouned adjectives.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>>>>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Trailer for the new Warren Beatty movie: "If you're crazy, I want
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> crazy!"
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>>>>>>>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The ad says that to make the Duluth Trading Fire Hose Shirt Jac,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> took
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "tough,  toasty, and some cozy."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Another example, from the NYT Online:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The hatred toward her would have bloomed forth unchecked: more
>>>>>>>>>>>> obstruction, more mudslinging, more investigations, _more vile_
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> been in store for her."
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange
>>>>>>> complaint to
>>>>>>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=P6a5fTEiIs_qLvXKIRtRwXP_0Gmww7i5F5LhDBZGH1Y&e= .
>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2
>>>>>>> m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMF
>>>>>>> FaLQ&m=WcBOBBjidvuYC78_Zj-Cv5jG4VFdsjy7ug1rpdx0Ua8&s=TUbGTsg
>>>>>>> wqZMbeSV-U1XvKiZZB-nwZqqrUX_qqe_8fXo&e= .
>>>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&
>>>>>>>>> c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxP
>>>>>>>>> IWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=OWzFW_3eNE-QOhJ4wE2Qi9Ag1oawuyS9cgDHd5nAJNQ&
>>>>>>> s=WAxEM2AIS_
>>>>>>>>> jwbLgjwbtcXdFJfnMY-i3W8hyXvPPVRzQ&e=
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=P6a5fTEiIs_qLvXKIRtRwXP_0Gmww7i5F5LhDBZGH1Y&e= .
>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2
>>>>>>> m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMF
>>>>>>> FaLQ&m=WcBOBBjidvuYC78_Zj-Cv5jG4VFdsjy7ug1rpdx0Ua8&s=TUbGTsg
>>>>>>> wqZMbeSV-U1XvKiZZB-nwZqqrUX_qqe_8fXo&e= .
>>>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&
>>>>>>>>> c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxP
>>>>>>>>> IWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=OWzFW_3eNE-QOhJ4wE2Qi9Ag1oawuyS9cgDHd5nAJNQ&
>>>>>>> s=WAxEM2AIS_
>>>>>>>>> jwbLgjwbtcXdFJfnMY-i3W8hyXvPPVRzQ&e=
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=P6a5fTEiIs_qLvXKIRtRwXP_0Gmww7i5F5LhDBZGH1Y&e= .
>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg
>>>>>>> 2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsM
>>>>>>> FFaLQ&m=WcBOBBjidvuYC78_Zj-Cv5jG4VFdsjy7ug1rpdx0Ua8&s=hskzPl
>>>>>>> b6U1zDstfC0igIppMQAjeNFXnpUPdwv-8R9mA&e=
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=P6a5fTEiIs_qLvXKIRtRwXP_0Gmww7i5F5LhDBZGH1Y&e= .
>>>>>>> com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg
>>>>>>> 2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsM
>>>>>>> FFaLQ&m=WcBOBBjidvuYC78_Zj-Cv5jG4VFdsjy7ug1rpdx0Ua8&s=hskzPl
>>>>>>> b6U1zDstfC0igIppMQAjeNFXnpUPdwv-8R9mA&e=
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=XGmu-ySrNG5UdMMigMHRlfDPx6GwuVh8TaxQzuRc6P0&e=
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIBaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=ekvqyMyuIbXK0_BJgv4wm645szdje-5hF6taGRhOt0E&s=XGmu-ySrNG5UdMMigMHRlfDPx6GwuVh8TaxQzuRc6P0&e=
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=o4aa9PW1Oqvk0w8amMtSmW95vYdxLrYexG6_5Nl6GCo&s=KenT5lvTen8bzQhYgtnmqadsiaSZ8ZQEz7Jd1-kHxEQ&e=
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=o4aa9PW1Oqvk0w8amMtSmW95vYdxLrYexG6_5Nl6GCo&s=KenT5lvTen8bzQhYgtnmqadsiaSZ8ZQEz7Jd1-kHxEQ&e=
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=QAdVUe3YBBWyv-4L-cg5nTWLjAJFNLsqqv9RVeN-OFA&s=4xgK7Q3QxfuibkTAwCN2iIKZ2DMhul6qmul8fWuYjw4&e= 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=QAdVUe3YBBWyv-4L-cg5nTWLjAJFNLsqqv9RVeN-OFA&s=4xgK7Q3QxfuibkTAwCN2iIKZ2DMhul6qmul8fWuYjw4&e= 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=R5RQaY9DBB8ZM64_C4RjB5PP9cey0Q2zldr-Evuu4KU&s=r7mNl2RQVTorvfqdZ_8yyzwx8YYOClC2brW6Cf4tWAA&e= 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.americandialect.org&d=CwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=wFp3X4Mu39hB2bf13gtz0ZpW1TsSxPIWYiZRsMFFaLQ&m=R5RQaY9DBB8ZM64_C4RjB5PP9cey0Q2zldr-Evuu4KU&s=r7mNl2RQVTorvfqdZ_8yyzwx8YYOClC2brW6Cf4tWAA&e= 

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