[Ads-l] Latent anti-Semitism [Was: Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] / __@ ?]

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Fri Oct 7 09:18:36 EDT 2016


What accent *isn't* "pretty great for telling jokes?"

Of a certain kind.

JL

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
wrote:

> I sorta agree with Joel here--I found the article somewhat odd, and a
> little hostile.
>
> However, Yishivish is a real word--it's the strongly Yiddish-influenced
> English spoken by the ultra-orthodox community. I don't know this research
> myself, but there's lots of literature on it. It uses way more Yiddish and
> Hebrew words than the stereotype  'Jewish English' the article is trying to
> describe. and its use is growing, at least in New York.
> It has its own Wikipedia entry (these days, who doesn't?), which gives
> many references, starting with Dovid Katz's book:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshivish
>
> Geoff
>
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> WSU Information Privacy Officer
> Professor, Linguistics Program
> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> +1 (313) 577-1259
>
> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it
> to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email  looks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Joel
> Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 8:44 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Latent anti-Semitism [Was: Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] / __@ ?]
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Latent anti-Semitism [Was: Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] /
> __@ ?]
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
> This of course is not a criticism of Neal.
>
> I find a latent and repellent anti-Semitism in the Atlas Obscura article,
> i=
> n it's characterizations of "the American Jewish Accent" --
>
> weird
>
> bizarre
>
> Ladino as a "mashup"=C2=A0 -- what is "standard" English but a mashup of
> ot=
> her languages?
>
> The use of "-ish", in "Germanicish" and Yeshivish", as though these
> dialect=
> s are somehow substandard versions of German or of the speech of Jews
> educa=
> ted in "the schools for the organized study of Jewish holy texts".
>
> The use of Yoda-like" has a similarly-disparaging undertone.
>
> The first sentence of the last paragraph seems to extend the disdain to
> all=
>  minorities, as though their speech of English too is substandard.
>
> Finally, the article concludes "It's messy and confusing and pulls
> elements=
>  from all over the world. But it=E2=80=99s pretty great for telling
> jokes."=
>  More slurs.=C2=A0 "Great for telling jokes"!=C2=A0 As if that's all it's
> g=
> ood for.=C2=A0 Is (stereotypical) Italian, or Irish, or Indian, or ...
> acce=
> nt great for telling jokes, and not much else, such as being understood in
> =
> one's community?
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
>       From: Neal Whitman <nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET>
>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=20
>  Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 11:38 PM
>  Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] / __@ ?
>   =20
> Relevant to this thread from 2012 (hat tip to LSA for sharing on Facebook):
>
> http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/why-linguists-are-
> fascinated-by-the-am=
>
>
> Atlas Obscura | Curious and Wondrous Travel Destinations
> www.atlasobscura.com
> Definitive guidebook and friendly tour-guide to the world's most wondrous
> places. Travel tips, articles, strange facts and unique events.
> erican-jewish-accent
>
>
> On 11/17/2012 3:02 PM, Paul Johnston wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------=
> ------
> > Sender:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.
> =
> EDU>
> > Poster:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
> > Subject:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Re: Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] / __@ ?
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------=
> ------
> >
> > I'm not sure what my original pattern was, though my parents (NYC born)
> h=
> ad [a] in nearly all or all words in this set intervocalically.=C2=A0 I,
> ho=
> wever, have [O] in them all, despite living a good deal of my childhood in
> =
> the NY/NJ suburbs.=C2=A0 I could have picked it up in Chicago, where I
> live=
> d from 6-14.=C2=A0 However, my high school years were in Morristown, in
> Mor=
> ris County, NJ, not far from the Oranges, and my birthplace was a stone's
> t=
> hrow from Florida,NY (not the state)in Orange County, so there's plenty of
> =
> words there in the classthat would come up all the time.=C2=A0 My memory
> ma=
> y be playing tricks on me but my impression was that local Morristonians
> ha=
> d [O] like me, but the incomers from NY
> > and farther toward the Hudson had [a] (in my day, distributing very much
> =
> like rhoticity).=C2=A0 Monroe, NY was also in the [a] area.=C2=A0 But if
> Ph=
> iladelphia also has [a], shouldn't all New Jersey have it too?=C2=A0 Am I
> p=
> rojecting my Illinois pronunciation on others?
> >
> > What I remember, too, is Morristonians using [O] and contrasting it
> stron=
> gly with southern NJ's Moorestown [mu:rztaUn], which was always being
> confu=
> sed with our place.=C2=A0 We'd never use [O] in the latter.
> >
> > Throughout, NORTH =3DFORCE for all areas that I've lived in in this
> count=
> ry.
> >
> > By the way, what's the Eastern New England pattern for <orV>, [a] or
> [=C3=
> =89=E2=80=99]?=C2=A0 The last one would equal NORTH in many places there,
> w=
> ith NORTH and FORCE being different.=C2=A0 Would Boston and Providence be
> d=
> ifferent?
> >
> > Paul Johnston
> > On Nov 17, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ----------------=
> -------
> >> Sender:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA
> =
> .EDU>
> >> Poster:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> Subject:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Re: Provenance of /Or/ > [ar] / __@ ?
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------=
> -------
> >>
> >> At 11/17/2012 01:36 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >>> On Nov 16, 2012, at 6:24 PM, Neal Whitman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm sure this has been analyzed somewhere at some point, but I
> >>> don't know where.
> >>>> What is the dialect that has /O/ lowering to [a] in a stressed
> >>> vowel preceding
> >>>> /r/ and an unstressed vowel? In other words, the dialect that
> pronounc=
> es
> >>>> "forest" as "farrest," "Florida" as "Flarrida", "Oregon" as "Ahregun,"
> >>>> "horrible" etc. as "harrible" etc., "authority" as "autharity",
> >>> but still has
> >>>> [O] in "fort", "lore," etc.? What is this realization called?
> >>>>
> >>> It's what I grew up with in NYC,
> >> Me too.
> >>
> >>> although I've shifted over to [O] most of the time for these; I
> >>> suspect I go back and forth (on "Florida", "orange", "forest") even
> >>> though I think of myself as an open-o employer for these (the first
> >>> group, that is; I've never varied on [O] for "fort" or "lore").=C2=A0 I
> >>> think of "AH-rinj" as the locus classicus, but as I recall it was
> >>> getting mocked for my [a] in "corridor" as a freshman in Rochester
> >>> that led to my abandoning my native vowels in this frame.=C2=A0 I'm
> sur=
> e
> >>> I never say "flarrist", but I probably did before the fall of 1961.
> >> Except my vacillations and shifts are different from
> >> Larry's.=C2=A0 (Perhaps because he stayed close, in New Haven, while I
> >> moved further (farther?), to Boston.)=C2=A0 For example, I'm sure I
> seld=
> om
> >> say "florist" but mostly "flarrist".=C2=A0 But I say "floral", not
> "flar=
> ral".
> >>
> >> Joel
> >>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>>> I've been vaguely aware of it for many years, but have begun to
> >>> notice it more,
> >>>> especially among certain NPR speakers. I even heard one guy on
> >>> Planet Money talk
> >>>> about a "flarrist" (florist), which is right in line with the phonetic
> >>>> environment I described, but was still a new pronunciation to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Neal
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society -  http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> American Dialect Society
> www.americandialect.org
> The American Dialect Society, founded in 1889, is dedicated to the study
> of the English language in North America, and of other languages, or
> dialects of other ...
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society -  http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> American Dialect Society
> www.americandialect.org
> The American Dialect Society, founded in 1889, is dedicated to the study
> of the English language in North America, and of other languages, or
> dialects of other ...
> >
>
> --=20
> Dr. Neal Whitman
> Lecturer, ESL Composition
> School of Teaching and Learning
> College of Education and Human Ecology
> Arps Hall
> 1945 North High Street
> whitman.11 at osu.edu
> (614) 260-1622
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> American Dialect Society
> www.americandialect.org
> The American Dialect Society, founded in 1889, is dedicated to the study
> of the English language in North America, and of other languages, or
> dialects of other ...
>
>
>   =20
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society -  http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> American Dialect Society
> www.americandialect.org
> The American Dialect Society, founded in 1889, is dedicated to the study
> of the English language in North America, and of other languages, or
> dialects of other ...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



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