[Ads-l] _try to_ vs. _try and_

Wilson Gray hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Mon Dec 18 13:19:46 EST 2017

> They all say "try and" over there, as well as "different to" (not from or

I haven't beao there, but that's certainly what I hear on TV and what I
heard from British soldiers in my Army days. One of them was a Capt.
Conybeare, of the Durham Light Infantry.  I'd never heard that name before
and I haven't heard it since. Didn't many members of that family emigrate
to the Colonies, I reckon.

Off topic: Capt. Conybeare wore a maroon "berry," as they pronounce
_beret_, as his uniform headgear. This beret was apparently peculiar to the
Durham Lt. Inf., since the other officers wore the usual British version of
the "flying saucer." And, of course, he used the British Army's
palm-outward salute. Both of these things were considered to be pretty
cool. So, the captain and other British officers were always rendered the
U.S. hand salute by the troops. OTOH, saluting American officers was
considered to be uncool, for some reason unknown to me, by the white
troops, who made every possible effort to avoid saluting American officers,
greatly annoying them.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM, David Daniel <dad at coarsecourses.com> wrote:

> Challenge to Everybody: Hop in a plane, go to the UK and try to find
> someone
> who says try to. I'll give you a quid if you can find one. They all say
> "try
> and" over there, as well as "different to" (not from or than). (Limited
> time
> offer)
> Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de dezembro de 2017 09:11
> Assunto: Re: _try to_ vs. _try and_
> Poster:       Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: _try to_ vs. _try and_
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> ---
>  In terms of the quote, I regard a 'language' as what is supposed to be
> the=
> perfect language model, incorporating=C2=A0 all of the 'proper English' ru=
> les found in a typical English textbook.=C2=A0 Of course, most people
> don't=
> reach that level of perfection and therefore break the rules in one way or=
> another, therefore speaking a dialect.=C2=A0 Those who establish the 'rule=
> s' of 'proper/perfect' English (i.e., those entities--political,
> social--po=
> werful enough to mandate the rules=C2=A0 of 'correct' usage) are also
> those=
> who are powerful enough to possess an army and a navy. Ironically, even th=
> ose who establish the rules of proper English also break the rules
> (perhaps=
> unintentionally, but nevertheless they do), so essentially everyone speaks=
> a dialect, with the rules of 'proper English' patiently sitting in English=
> textbooks as models of perfection that no one can reach. =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> --Margaret Lee=C2=A0
>     On =E2=80=8ESunday=E2=80=8E, =E2=80=8EDecember=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E17=E2=
> =80=8E, =E2=80=8E2017=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E07=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E22=E2=80=8E:=
> =E2=80=8E39=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8EPM=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8EEST, James A. Landau
> <JJ=
> JRLandau at netscape.com> wrote: =20 =20  First, thank you to those who
> responded to our request about "Bye Felicia"= .
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 09:39:31 Zone + 0000 Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> w=
> rote:
> <quote>
>  Yes, I was taught to use 'try to' rather than 'try and'.=C2=A0 The old=20
> 'proper English' mandate, but what exactly is 'proper English'?=C2=A0 Who=
> =20 decides what is 'proper'?=C2=A0 Are any of you familiar with the Max=20
> Weinreich quote:=C2=A0 "A language is a dialect with an army an a navy" ?
> <end quote>
> The Weinreich quote is a handy rule of thumb, but it is, at a guess, 90%
> ac=
> curate, e.g. I am still looking for the Gullah army and the Yiddish navy.
> A better definition: the distinction between language and dialect is
> arbitr=
> ary, but there is a (somewhat flaky) rule:
> a dialect qualifies as a separate language IF it is the USUAL speech of a
> g=
> roup which is widely considered to be distinct from the surrounding
> x-langu=
> age-speaking population because the group is isolated socially,
> geographica=
> lly, or by national borders.
> Example:=C2=A0 the Yiddish-speaking Jews of Eastern Europe were isolated
> so=
> cially and were well-known to Gentiles as a distinct people.=C2=A0
> Speakers=
> of Gullah are geographically isolated from those on the US mainland, black=
> and white, who speak dialects of English.=C2=A0 (Am I correct that Gullah =
> is considered a separate language, not a dialect of English?) Portugal is
> a=
> separate nation from Spain and therefore their speech is considered a sepa=
> rate language.
> On the other hand, Cantonese is considered to be only a dialect of
> Chinese,=
> as the Cantonese speakers, although perhaps geographically isolated, are c=
> onsidered and consider themselves members of the Chinese people and have
> be=
> en from time immemorial part of a Chinese nation.=C2=A0 Similarly
> Yorkshire=
> , although not mutually intelligible with the speech of the rest of
> England=
> , is a dialect because Yorkshire has long been considered part of England.
> There are borderline (no pun intended) cases, e.g. Catalan, the speakers
> of=
> which have been part of Spain since Spain became united with the marriage =
> of Ferdinand (a Catalan) and Isabella (a Castilian).=C2=A0 However, they
> ha=
> ve kept somewhat of a separate cultural identity, they are geographically
> i=
> solated, and, who knows, they may soon acquire independence from Spain.
> What about AAVE?=C2=A0 It is a dialect because, while African-Americans
> are=
> a distinct social group, they are NOT geographically isolated and many Afr=
> ican-Americans do not speak AAVE, so it does not qualify as "usual speech"
> =
> the way Yiddish was the usual speech of Eastern European Jews (and then
> the=
> re is Wilson Gray who posts on this list both in AAVE and in what I will
> NO=
> T call "standard English" or "proper English").
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Now for another question, posed by both Margaret Lee and Wilson
> Gray:=C2=A0=
> "what exactly is 'proper English'?=C2=A0 Who=20 decides what is 'proper'?"
> I have an answer:=C2=A0 grammatically English has three major dialects,
> wha=
> t I call "Patrician", "Plebian", and King James.=C2=A0 Patrician is the
> lit=
> erary dialect.=C2=A0 Plebian is the widely-spoken very-resistant-to-change
> =
> dialect characterized by such features as double negatives, negation by
> "ai=
> n't", etc.=C2=A0 AAVE is simply a subset of Plebian with certain
> idiosyncra=
> tic features of its own.=C2=A0=20
> So who decides what is "proper"?=C2=A0=20
> NOBODY!=C2=A0=20
> Patrician, being the literary dialect, is used whenever the literary
> dialec=
> t is expected.=C2=A0 People who customarily speak Plebian used Plebian as
> t=
> heir everyday spoken dialect.=C2=A0 King James is used in religious
> context=
> s (and related contexts, e.g. a sign in front of a church "Thou shalt not
> w=
> alk on the grass").
> Therefore (in the United States at least) there is "no sich animal" as
> Stan=
> dard English, which implies there is also no such thing as "sub-standard
> En=
> glish", merely English which differs in greater or lesser degree from the
> l=
> iterary dialect..
> Have I answered your question, Dr. Lee?
> Now for "try to" vs. "try and".=C2=A0 Speakers of both Patrician and
> Plebia=
> n use whichever they are used to.=C2=A0 "Try to" is prescriptivist, for
> onc=
> e for a logical reason: "try and" violates the diction rules in both
> Patric=
> ian and Plebian for use of the infinitive.
> - Jim Landau
> PS to Wilson Gray:=C2=A0 my grandson, almost two years old, is learning
> his=
> colors.=C2=A0 He has the primary colors down pat but is having trouble dis=
> tinguishing "black" and "brown".=C2=A0 He pointed to an African-American
> wo=
> man who was wearing a black dress and said "Brown".=C2=A0 The woman
> laughed=
> and said, "You just made my day".
> _____________________________________________________________
> Netscape.=C2=A0 Just the Net You Need.
>  =20
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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