[Ads-l] toward a hierarchy of currencies

Dan Goncharoff thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Sat Jul 8 17:29:13 EDT 2017


Yes. If tomorrow, chips from failed Trump casinos were proclaimed legal
tender, they would be fiat currency.

The issue can be more complicated if things of real value (gold;
cigarettes?) are made legal tender -- are they fiat currency or
representative currency?

For example, what about the Rentenmark of 20s Germany, which represented an
entitlement to the assets of the government? I think that was not fiat
currency.

On Jul 8, 2017 5:07 PM, "Barretts Mail" <mail.barretts at gmail.com> wrote:

> I didn’t read through the list but did know it’s legal in Japan.
>
> Are you saying then that recognition not issuance is what should determine
> whether a currency is fiat?
>
> BB
>
> > On 8 Jul 2017, at 13:46, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Quickly scanning the article, I only see one country that has declared
> > Bitcoin legal tender -- Japan. As I understand it, that makes it fiat
> money
> > in Japan.
> >
> > On Jul 8, 2017 4:09 PM, "Barretts Mail" <mail.barretts at gmail.com
> <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > So how about the case in the Wikipedia article (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>
> > wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>
> > wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory>) where governments
> accept
> > bitcoin as legal tender but do not issue it? BB
> >
> >> On 8 Jul 2017, at 13:04, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM <mailto:
> thegonch at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think government issuance is the important distinction. The 'fiat' in
> >> fiat currency refers to the government accepting it as legal tender.
> Other
> >> entities can proclaim something (eg, Bitcoin) as accepted for
> > transactions,
> >> but that doesn't make it fiat currency. As mentioned, Bitcoin is
> property,
> >> so selling something for Bitcoin is not a sale for tax purposes, but an
> >> exchange of property.
> >>
> >> On Jul 8, 2017 3:16 PM, "Barretts Mail" <mail.barretts at gmail.com
> <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com> <mailto:
> > mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think you’re being facetious, but bitcoins do not work like that.
> >>>
> >>> Coin issuance differs depending on the cryptocurrency, but mainly, like
> >>> bitcoin, are issued through a mining process.
> >>>
> >>> In the mining process, a computer is presented with a mathematical
> >>> problem. When it solves the problem, it is rewarded with a coin (or
> some
> >>> amount). The restricting factors making the mined coins valuable are
> the
> >>> cost of electricity and the efficiency of the computer. For bitcoin and
> >>> perhaps all coins, mining is now performed by entities that use
> dedicated
> >>> mining devices operated in locations with low power costs, making it
> >>> financially disadvantageous for the average person to mine coins.
> >>>
> >>> With bitcoin, the mathematical problems become more difficult over
> time,
> >>> making the price to mine them higher, which drives up the value/cost.
> >>>
> >>> Also, bitcoin is set up with an issuance cap, so that once the final
> one
> >>> has been issued, none will ever be issued again. I think there are
> coins
> >>> that do not have a cap and can be issued like the wizard’s imposter,
> but
> >>> such systems are not as attractive to investors and are not as likely
> to
> >>> succeed.
> >>>
> >>> That being said, fiat currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Fiat_money <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money>
> > <
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Fiat_money> <https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>
> > wiki/Fiat_money>>), at least according to
> >>> Wikipedia, is one that is established as money by government
> regulation.
> >>> Since bitcoin is indeed recognized as legal tender by some governments
> (
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_
> country_or_territory <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_
> country_or_territory <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory>>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_ <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_>
> > country_or_territory <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_ <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_>
> > country_or_territory>>),
> >>> it is indeed fiat currency according to this definition. FWIW, the IRS
> >>> considers cryptocurrencies to be property.
> >>>
> >>> BB
> >>>
> >>>> On 8 Jul 2017, at 12:05, George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU
> <mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> > <mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU <mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Why isn't the bitcoin a fiat currency?  An illegitimate son of the
> > Wizard
> >>>> of Oz sits behind a curtain and releases some more, as he sees a need
> > for
> >>>> more.  They are said to be valuable.  Therefore they are valuable.
> >>>> Whereas Confederate currency is still valuable, just not in the way
> the
> >>>> Jeff Davis had in mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> GAT
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Barretts Mail <
> mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>>
> >>> <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>
> <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Good point, and one that is close to the problem of bitcoin being a
> >>>>> “digital currency” even though it can be withdrawn from ATMs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My assumption is that fiat currencies exist in physical form even if
> >>> they
> >>>>> are frequently transacted digitally. So if you spend $50 with a debit
> >>> card,
> >>>>> that $50 physically exists at the bank or a government institution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue>> <
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue>>> <
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue>> <
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar#Means_of_issue>>>>
> says:
> >>>>> "The monetary base consists of coins and Federal Reserve Notes in
> >>>>> circulation outside the Federal Reserve Banks and the U.S. Treasury,
> >>> plus
> >>>>> deposits held by depository institutions at Federal Reserve Banks.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In contrast, the basis or at least the primary basis of a digital
> >>> currency
> >>>>> is in digital form.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BB
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8 Jul 2017, at 10:52, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM
> <mailto:thegonch at GMAIL.COM> <mailto:
> > thegonch at GMAIL.COM <mailto:thegonch at GMAIL.COM>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since most USD exist digitally, how do you differentiate between 2b
> > and
> >>>>> 3?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 8, 2017 1:26 PM, "Barretts Mail" <mail.barretts at gmail.com
> <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com <mailto:mail.barretts at gmail.com>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Twice recently, I have implied that bitcoin is an alt coin (“cold -
> >>>>>>> inactive, offline” on 28 May and “(cryptocurrency) wallets” on 29
> >>> May).
> >>>>> It
> >>>>>>> may be that the term is sometimes used that way, but that does not
> >>> seem
> >>>>>>> standard.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here is a tentative hierarchy of currencies:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. currency
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2a. fiat currency such as the US dollar, RMB and euro
> >>>>>>> 2b: alternative/private currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/ <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>>
> >>>>>>> wiki/Alternative_currency <https://en.wikipedia.org/ <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>>
> >>>>>>> wiki/Alternative_currency>) - any currency used as an alternative
> to
> >>> the
> >>>>>>> official one. If a state goes rogue and starts printing their own
> >>>>> currency,
> >>>>>>> that would also qualify.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3 (from 2b): digital currency, digital money, electronic money (
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_currency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_currency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_currency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_currency>> <
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>>
> >>>>>>> wiki/Digital_currency>) - a currency whose basis resides in
> computers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 4. virtual currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Virtual_currency <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency>> <
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_currency>>>) - a currency used
> >>> in a
> >>>>>>> virtual community.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5. cryptocurrency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Cryptocurrency>> <
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Cryptocurrency>>>) - a currency exchanged
> >>>>>>> using cryptography for security
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5a. bitcoin
> >>>>>>> 5b. alt coin (derived from “bitcoin alternative according to
> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency> <
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency <https://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Cryptocurrency>> <
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/>>
> >>>>>>> wiki/Cryptocurrency>) - in turn comprising shitcoins and perhaps
> >>> another
> >>>>>>> category of less-risky alt coins such as ethereum and litecoin
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It should be noted that since there are bitcoin ATMs in Europe and
> > the
> >>>>> US
> >>>>>>> (at least), the bitcoin is not truly a virtual currency.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I’m still new to the cryptoworld and am sure further refinements
> are
> >>>>>>> required.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Benjamin Barrett
> >>>>>>> Formerly of Seattle, WA
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> >>> http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> George A. Thompson
> >>>> The Guy Who Still Looks Stuff Up in Books.
> >>>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> >>>> Univ. Pr., 1998.
> >>>>
> >>>> But when aroused at the Trump of Doom / Ye shall start, bold kings,
> from
> >>>> your lowly tomb. . .
> >>>> L. H. Sigourney, "Burial of Mazeen", Poems.  Boston, 1827, p. 112
> >>>>
> >>>> The Trump of Doom -- affectionately (of course) also known as The
> >>> Dunghill
> >>>> Toadstool.  (Here's a picture of one.)
> >>>> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james- <
> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-> <
> > http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james- <
> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james->>
> >>> gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-
> a-dunghill/3851
> > <
> >>> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james- <
> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james-> <
> > http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james- <
> http://www.parliament.uk/worksofart/artwork/james->>
> >>> gillray/an-excrescence---a-fungus-alias-a-toadstool-upon-
> a-dunghill/3851>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/>> <
> >>> http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> http://www.americandialect.org/> <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/ <http://www.americandialect.org/>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org <
> > http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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