[Ads-l] paddy wagon

Margaret Winters mewinters at WAYNE.EDU
Sun Jul 30 09:09:31 EDT 2017


Scanning a problem too with "They call the wind Mariah with a [aj], not be be confused with a problem like Maria".

Margaret

Sent from my iPad

MARGARET E WINTERS
Professor Emerita French and Linguistics
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI  48202

mewinters at wayne.edu<mailto:mewinters at wayne.edu>

On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU<mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>> wrote:

And no relation to the Mariah they call the wind, given the spelling. In fact, the original version of the song went “They call the wind Mariah with an <h> to distinguish it from the black paddy wagon”, but it didn’t scan.

LH

On Jul 29, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Margaret Winters <mewinters at WAYNE.EDU<mailto:mewinters at WAYNE.EDU>> wrote:

According to Wikipedia (s.v. black mariah):

Black Maria, a slang term for a police van<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_van> used to transport prisoners, originally these were horse drawn and so could take some time to arrive at a crime scene. “Black Maria” was a famous racehorse of the day, born in Harlem USA in 1826. The name was sardonically applied to the police carriages (which were also usually colored black).


For what it is worth, the site World Wide Words (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bla1.htm) likes this story too since the dates for the race horse and the van are properly in line.  They deny any suggestion about a woman named Mariah (black or white) and mention the song only to provide a guide to the pronunciation of the name (not to be confused with "Ave Maria").

World Wide Words: Black Maria<http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bla1.htm>
www.worldwidewords.org<http://www.worldwidewords.org>
Where does the slang term 'Black Maria' for a police van come from?




----------------------------
MARGARET E WINTERS
Former Provost
Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI  48202

mewinters at wayne.edu<mailto:mewinters at wayne.edu>



________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf of paul johnson <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM<mailto:paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:04 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: paddy wagon

Was that the same Mariah that the wind was named?


On 7/29/2017 11:27 AM, Margaret Winters wrote:
Geoff Nathan and I wondered about who Mariah was - it came up after this thread started, of course.


----------------------------
MARGARET E WINTERS
Former Provost
Professor Emerita - French and Linguistics
Wayne State University
Detroit, MI  48202

mewinters at wayne.edu<mailto:mewinters at wayne.edu>



________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf of Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 8:40 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: paddy wagon

I'd be very surprised to see "paddy wagon" applied to a "police car," at
least in the U.S.

BTW, the predecessor of the "paddy wagon" was the "Black Mariah." A
different "slur"?

My grandparents used "paddy wagon," but both were familiar with "Black
Mariah" from NYC in the '90s.

(That's "1890s.")

JL



JL

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 7:13 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com<mailto:adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>> wrote:

In April 2015 Stephen Goranson initiated a discussion thread about
"paddy wagon" by presenting some intriguing citations:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-April/136543.html

[Begin excerpt]
Though "paddy wagon" came to be associated with police vehicles, some
early uses associate it with wheelbarrows. OED (via Sam Clements) has
1909 for "paddy wagon."
[End excerpt]

I presented some complementary matches for "Paddy's wheelbarrow".
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2015-April/136625.html

The OED has the following definition for "paddy" and notes that it can
be derogatory.

[Begin excerpt]
paddy, n.2
1. colloq.
a. Usually in form Paddy. An Irishman. Frequently used as a
derogatory form of address.
1714   in R. Steele Poetical Misc. 201   Poor Paddy swears his whole
Week's Gains away.
[End excerpt]

Here is the OED information for "paddy wagon" which is listed under
"paddy, n.2".

[Begin excerpt]
paddy wagon  n. slang (orig. U.S.) a police van or car.

1909   Chicago Tribune 12 Sept. v. 3/1   Don't it make you think of
the paddy wagon going down the street to pinch a gambling joint?
[End excerpt]

Garson


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com<mailto:pjreitan at hotmail.com>>
wrote:
Even if it's true that it's a reference to Irishmen, they were typically
hired as policemen who manned and operated the police wagons, so it's more
descriptive than derogatory. Not every race/ethnic reference is a slur.
________________________________
From: Wilson Gray<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
Sent: ‎7/‎28/‎2017 15:54
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU><mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: paddy wagon

---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>>
Subject:      Re: paddy wagon
------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
I wonder when Al discovered that it was a slur? I spent the greater
portion
of my life thinking that _paddy-wagon_ < "patty-wagon" < "patrol-wagon,"
with no reference to race or ethnicity. I've been familiar with _paddy_
itself since the beginning of time, but only as a synonym of e.g. _fade_
"white person" (as opposed to _shade_ "black person").

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>>
wrote:

The Rev. Al Sharpton on MSNBC's _Deadline: White House_:

"[Now President Trump is] talking about 'paddy wagons' which, by the
way,
is a *slur*, Mr. President!"

JL

--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
truth."
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--
-Wilson
-----
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come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

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--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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Forgive your enemy, but remember the ass-hole's name.

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