[Ads-l] fuck ton

Andy Bach afbach at GMAIL.COM
Tue Aug 7 18:25:18 EDT 2018


*Hunter, a willing, hearty brither,              Weel skilled in dead and
living leather.  (“The Court of Equity”, 1796; cf.
https://www.bartleby.com/334/746.html
<https://www.bartleby.com/334/746.html>) *
I'd surely not have gotten the idea that "living leather" is "female
pudendum" - the poem is sort of like a remembered dream, I get parts of it
and part almost make sense and then there's those parts that don't make any
sense. Still "*clishmaclaver" *(gossip, idle chatter) is a word that should
be resurrected or, being Scottish, introduced into English.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:09 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> I see Farmer & Henley have “leather” (‘female pudendum’) back to 1540,
> with a crafty couplet from Robbie Burns:
>
> Hunter, a willing, hearty brither,
> Weel skilled in dead and living leather.  (“The Court of Equity”, 1796;
> cf. https://www.bartleby.com/334/746.html)
>
> F&H also have an entry for “cockles” = ‘labia minora’ but no
> female-genitalia sense for “cock”; nothing relevant in OED.  Doesn’t settle
> the question—I’m sure Jon’s theory is sound.
>
> LH
>
>
> > On Aug 7, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> >
> > P.S.: I can't recall any U.S. exx. of "cockey/ cock" 'clitoris,'
> >
> > Now I wonder if the vaginal sense was transferred from the clitoral
> sense,
> > w/o gratuitous  interference from "coquille."
> >
> > Theory: we'll never find out.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:18 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> From last September. The 19th C. ex. referred to was from a bawdy song
> of
> >> the 1830's. If it can't be found in the Archive, and I didn't post it
> can
> >> find it at the campus library (I think). The simplest explanation seems
> to
> >> be that U.S, currency came from England.
> >>
> >>>
> >> Seems I posted an English ex. from the 19th century at some point,
> though
> >> I can't find it quickly in the archive.
> >>
> >> This is from a traditional song collected in Gloucestershire in 1978.
> >> Note  the archaic use of "leather."  The diction generally is 19th C.
> Many
> >> texts of the song have been collected and printed (since the 1960s), but
> >> this is the only one I've seen with "cock."
> >>
> >>
> >> http://glostrad.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/151-
> Danny-Brazil-Crabfish-TheSC.pdf
> >>
> >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot....
> >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock.
> >>
> >> "Oh husband, oh husband, oh husband come hither,
> >> The devil's in the chamber and got me by the leather."
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:47 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Aug 6, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Not to boast, but all the um- and non-um-words in that collection of
> >>>> Joyce's letters that are relevant to American usage are in (or were
> >>> slated
> >>>> to be in later volumes of)  HDAS.
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>
> >>> True enough, but while _cock_ ‘vulva” has an entry in HDAS*, the
> Joycean
> >>> _cock_ ‘clitoris’ (as in the 3 December 1909 letter to Nora excerpted
> >>> below) or, for that matter, _cockey_ (from the letter to Nora six days
> >>> later), does not.  I would wager, without any particular support for
> it,
> >>> that many languages use a diminutive for one of their ‘penis’ words for
> >>> ‘clitoris’, a la _cockey_.
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>> *HDAS, s.v. _cock_, n. 3: So. & Black E.
> >>> a. The vulva or vagina; cunt.
> >>>
> >>> Jon does give a tentative etymology:
> >>> “perh. fr.  Eng. Dial. _cock_ ‘cockle, shell-fish’”
> >>> which does indeed seem to suggest the “coquille” etymology Gawne notes.
> >>> Am I right in recall some pushback from someone on the list (maybe Jon
> >>> himself) against this derivation? The 1867 Doten journal entry which
> (after
> >>> decoding) reveals that the diarist and his “lady love went to bed and
> felt
> >>> of each other’s cocks all [they] pleased” before she climbed aboard
> would
> >>> seem to challenge the idea that the two senses have completely distinct
> >>> etymologies and to point toward polysemy rather than homonymy.  Or
> (just
> >>> speculating) could Doten have been referring, like Joyce, to “that
> little
> >>> cock at the end of [her] cunt”?  Does it affect our speculation to
> recall
> >>> that Doten, who hailed from Plymouth, MA and traveled to California
> for the
> >>> Gold Rush and Nevada, was (like Joyce) not fluent in either So. or
> Black
> >>> E.?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 10:55 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Very nice, and it speaks below to a thread we indulged in a while
> back,
> >>>>> with a slight twist.  (And note the references to Jesse and Jon.).
> The
> >>>>> derivation of _cock_ ‘vulva’ (as opposed to ‘clitoris’) from
> >>> _coquille_ was
> >>>>> indeed entertained in our earlier colloquies but, if memory serves,
> >>>>> dismissed (or at least vigorously challenged).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LH
> >>>>>
> >>>>> P.S.  Nice glosswork by Lauren Gawne, but can someone who labors in
> the
> >>>>> vineyards of antique umliterature really have been innocent of
> >>>>> “cockstand”?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =======================
> >>>>> Cock (female genitals)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “If he did, did they go far enough to touch that little cock at the
> >>> end of
> >>>>> your cunt?” (3 December 1909)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The use of ‘cock’ to mean clitoris is uncommon. There’s no
> attestation
> >>> in
> >>>>> the OED, MW or even Green’s Dictionary of Slang.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Update: The above paragraph previously read: “The use of ‘cock’ to
> mean
> >>>>> female genitalia rather than male is uncommon.” There is an entry in
> >>>>> Green’s Dictionary of Slang for ‘cock’ meaning female genitals in
> >>> general,
> >>>>> and attested use in British English from 1833. He gives the origin as
> >>> the
> >>>>> French coquille (a shell of the kind like an oyster or cockle). This
> >>> sense
> >>>>> of ‘cock’ has also been the predominent sense in Southern American
> >>> English.
> >>>>> In an article on the US ‘cock’ dialect divide, Jesse Sheidlower notes
> >>> that
> >>>>> in Historical Dictionary of American Slang the earliest record of
> >>> ‘cock’
> >>>>> for female genitalia is 1867. I learnt a thing today.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Other example:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “Tickle your little cockey while you write to make you say worse and
> >>>>> worse.” (9 December 1909)
> >>>>> ======================
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Andy Bach <afbach at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 7:34 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> >>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> A handy guide from Iva Cheung on the Strong Language blog...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://stronglang.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/units-of-fucking-measure/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interesting site - they offer up yet another "mickey" which might
> help
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> "take the mickey out of" search, from James Joyce's lecherous
> letters
> >>> to
> >>>>>> his wife, Nora:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> https://stronglang.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/fuckbird-
> cockstand-and-frigging-some-annotations-of-james-joyces-
> erotic-letters-to-his-wife-nora-barnacle/
> >>>>>> Mickey
> >>>>>> “gently take out your lover’s fat mickey, lap it up in your moist
> >>> mouth”
> >>>>> (8
> >>>>>> December 1909)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This is a predominantly Irish English slang term for penis. Two of
> the
> >>>>> four
> >>>>>> quotes in the OED for the term are from Joyce (one of which is from
> >>> these
> >>>>>> letters). Be careful though, ‘Mickey’ is a lot of things to a lot of
> >>>>>> different people, not only is it a cartoon mouse, but also a Roman
> >>>>> Catholic
> >>>>>> or Irish person, or (I assume by extension) a potato (US English), a
> >>>>>> bullock or noisy miner bird (Australian English) or a small bottle
> of
> >>>>>> liquor (Canadian English).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andy Bach,
> >>>>>> afbach at gmail.com
> >>>>>> 608 658-1890 cell
> >>>>>> 608 261-5738 wk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >>> truth."
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



-- 

a

Andy Bach,
afbach at gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org


More information about the Ads-l mailing list