[Ads-l] to "dutch"

Wilson Gray hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Sun Dec 27 20:59:56 EST 2020


> marking beers or pitchers on an individual's Deckel

That was the practice when I was stationed in Germany, back in the day.

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:55 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:

> I found an article in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle from January 5, 1896, that
> attributes familiarity to "Dutch Treat" to the book Snarleyyow, by
> Captain Frederick
> Marryat, written in 1837.
>
> An online search of the book found 42 references to "Dutch", none of which
> seem to refer to anyone paying for themselves, but perhaps a more intense
> reading is required.
>
> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 4:49 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dan,
> > >
> > > If this was true in the 1800's, I'm persuaded.
> > >
> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > Most of these are first recorded long after the 17th C. herring wars.
> >
> > Well, perhaps, but it seems reasonable to assume the animus remained.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I am not sure this is true. Even today, German servers normally
> record a
> > >> separate bill for each person, even marking beers or pitchers on an
> > >> individual's Deckel. It is not a big stretch to say that German beer
> > halls
> > >> in the US in the 19th century used the same practice, which was called
> > >> "going Dutch".
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:44 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> But “Dutch treat" figures as part of a much larger set of slurs and
> > >>> epithets denigrating the Dutch that stem from the years in which the
> > >>> Britain and Holland were engaged in the “herring wars” for supremacy
> of
> > >> the
> > >>> North Sea, as itemized in Farmer & Henley, including inter alia:
> > >>>
> > >>> Dutch act:  suicide
> > >>> Dutch bargain:  a bargain all on one side
> > >>> Dutch-clock:  a bedpan; a wife
> > >>> Dutch concert/medley:  a raucous hubbub
> > >>> Dutch consolation:  Job’s comfort (= “could be worse”)
> > >>> Dutch courage:  pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication
> > >>> Dutch fuck:  the practice of lighting one cigarette from another
> > >>> Dutch milk:  beer
> > >>> Dutch treat:  an outing at which one pays one’s own way
> > >>> Dutch widow:  a prostitute
> > >>> Dutch wife:  a bolster (on a bed)
> > >>>
> > >>> —very much along the lines of:
> > >>>
> > >>> Irish apricot (apple, lemon):  a potato
> > >>> Irishman’s dinner:  a fast
> > >>> Irish evidence:  false witness
> > >>> Irish kiss:  a slap in the face
> > >>> Irish promotion:  a pay-cut
> > >>> Irish twins:  two siblings who are not twins but are born less than a
> > >> year
> > >>> apart
> > >>> Irish wedding:  the emptying of a cesspool
> > >>>
> > >>> LH
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I assumed that impression could have come from "German" or "Dutch"
> > >>> comedians who spoke in "dialect".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Weber and Fields were active during that period.  Several examples
> of
> > >>> their humor are available on youtube.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk
> > >>>> ________________________________
> > >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> of
> > >>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 10:52:55 AM
> > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It sounds like adhockery to me, since I'm unaware of any tradition
> > that
> > >>>> Germans "make themselves say what they don't mean." The Irish were
> > >>>> associated with absurd blunders ("bulls"), making the nonexistent
> > >> "Irish
> > >>>> book" a more likely expression of that idea.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Germans were notorious instead for their accents, lager, and
> sausages.
> > >>>> Vaudeville stereotyping was common, but no more so than for other
> > >> ethnic
> > >>>> groups.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Interesting find, though.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> JL
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:34 AM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com
> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> An early explanation of the word suggests it was "derived from the
> > >> habit
> > >>>>> some ignorant Germans have of making themselves say what they don't
> > >>> mean,
> > >>>>> and the flippant sports apply the term to a book that 'wins
> > backward,'
> > >>> or
> > >>>>> stands to lose no matter which horse wons the race."
> > >>>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/66134635/the-los-angeles-times/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> LA Times, October 25, 1903, page 23.
> > >>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> of
> > >>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:33:28 AM
> > >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>>> Subject: to "dutch"
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >>>>> -----------------------
> > >>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>>>> Subject:      to "dutch"
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "To lay bets in such a way as to win by covering all possibilities
> > >>>>> proportionately; also fig."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Not in OED.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1902 _St. Paul Globe_ (Dec. 21) 33: When the book was "Dutched," it
> > >>> meant
> > >>>>> that the player turned the tables on the bookie, and played every
> > >> horse
> > >>> in
> > >>>>> the race, certain of winning on practically all. ...In the days
> when
> > >> the
> > >>>>> men in the ring had the large slates, standing up in full view, on
> > >> which
> > >>>>> the prices were clearly written in large figures, it was an easy
> > >> matter
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> "Dutch" the books. [How-to details follow.]
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1910 _Washington Times_ (Sept. 4) 12: The Cubs will be stronger
> > >>> favorites
> > >>>>> in Chicago than in Philadelphia. Fine chance to "Dutch the book."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1914 _Evening Bulletin _ (Providence, R.I.) (Sept. 11) Sec. III 9:
> At
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> beginning of the season these sporting men backed the champions at
> > >>> prices
> > >>>>> of 1 to 2 and 1 to 3. They are now endeavoring to lay off as a
> matter
> > >> of
> > >>>>> protection, to Dutch the book, in other words.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1916 _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ (Dec. 3) (Want Ads Section) 3:
> FOR
> > >>> SALE -
> > >>>>> ACRES AND RANCHES... A Chance to Dutch the Book...for $300 under
> > >> value,
> > >>>>> raise vegetables and chickens; you can't lose.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1924 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Oct. 2) (Sports) 2: One could
> easily
> > >>> "dutch
> > >>>>> the book" by betting on Washington in New York and the Giants in
> San
> > >>>>> Francisco. On such a basis, one would wager $1000 in New York to
> win
> > >>> $1200
> > >>>>> and $1000 in San Francisco to win $1250.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1932 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (June 14) (Sports) 15: In the East
> you
> > >>> might
> > >>>>> bet $800 on Schmeling against $1000. In San Francisco you would
> then
> > >>> wager
> > >>>>> $800 on Sharkey. What would happen? You would stand to win $200 no
> > >>> matter
> > >>>>> who might win. Of course, in the case of a draw, you would be
> > upsticks
> > >>> and
> > >>>>> nobody hurt. But it is not always easy to make sure of "Dutching
> the
> > >>> book."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1986 _Jersey Journal_ (Jersey City) (Apr. 14) 24: So get ready to
> > >> dutch
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> book.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The origin? Evidently < "Dutch book" (not in OED), 'a bookmaker's
> > >>> inexpert
> > >>>>> odds that allow a bettor to profit by wagering proportionately on
> all
> > >>>>> possibilities; also fig.'
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1894 _Evansville [Ind.] Courier and Press_ (June 15) 7: Parties
> > ...who
> > >>> seem
> > >>>>> content to be called bookmakers even if they do offer to the public
> > >>> what is
> > >>>>> commonly known in the ring as a Dutch book....[T]heir patrons get
> the
> > >>> best
> > >>>>> of it, as long as it lasts.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1895 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Jan. 9)  10: Then Joe went after
> > Motor
> > >>>>> money. What kind of a Dutch book did Joe have with Motor at 13 to
> 5,
> > >>>>> Realization at 8 to 5, and Elise at 6 to 1?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1911 _Evening World_ (N.Y.C.) (Mar. 2) (Daily Mag.):  Concentrate!
> > The
> > >>>>> fellow who plays for General Results is making a Dutch book on
> > >> himself!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1930 _Times-Union_ (Albany, N.Y.) (JUne 8) B-5:  Obviously Shaw
> could
> > >>> not
> > >>>>> lay these prices under any other system for the reason that he
> would
> > >>> likely
> > >>>>> be making a "dutch" book.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Why "Dutch" (presumably "German")?  The quest goes on.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> JL
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >>> truth."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > >>> truth."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


-- 
- Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

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