[Ads-l] to "dutch"

Wilson Gray hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Mon Dec 28 16:05:00 EST 2020


> to the next Euro

When I was stationed in Germany, the Euro had yet to be conceived of and
the dollar was still the king of coin: $1.00 = DM4.80, except for pennies
and nickels, coinage was silver, and tipping wasn't a thing. Germans would
buy American coins for their value as silver instead of exchanging them for
their worth as money.

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:15 PM Peter Reitan <pjreitan at hotmail.com> wrote:

> One reason German waiters don't like combining checks is they have a
> different tipping tradition.
>
> Instead of tipping 15% (or some other standard) of the bill, which would
> be the same combined or separate, people generally just round up the bill
> to the next Euro, leaving a nominal tip, even on a large bill.
>
> Keeping bar tabs and group restaurant bills separate increases the number
> of nominal tips., and total take.
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 5:59:56 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > marking beers or pitchers on an individual's Deckel
>
> That was the practice when I was stationed in Germany, back in the day.
>
> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 7:55 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I found an article in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle from January 5, 1896, that
> > attributes familiarity to "Dutch Treat" to the book Snarleyyow, by
> > Captain Frederick
> > Marryat, written in 1837.
> >
> > An online search of the book found 42 references to "Dutch", none of
> whic=
> h
> > seem to refer to anyone paying for themselves, but perhaps a more intense
> > reading is required.
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 4:49 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > On Dec 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM=
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dan,
> > > >
> > > > If this was true in the 1800's, I'm persuaded.
> > > >
> > > > Larry,
> > > >
> > > > Most of these are first recorded long after the 17th C. herring wars.
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps, but it seems reasonable to assume the animus remained.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I am not sure this is true. Even today, German servers normally
> > record a
> > > >> separate bill for each person, even marking beers or pitchers on an
> > > >> individual's Deckel. It is not a big stretch to say that German beer
> > > halls
> > > >> in the US in the 19th century used the same practice, which was
> call=
> ed
> > > >> "going Dutch".
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 3:44 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> But =E2=80=9CDutch treat" figures as part of a much larger set of
> s=
> lurs and
> > > >>> epithets denigrating the Dutch that stem from the years in which
> th=
> e
> > > >>> Britain and Holland were engaged in the =E2=80=9Cherring
> wars=E2=80=
> =9D for supremacy
> > of
> > > >> the
> > > >>> North Sea, as itemized in Farmer & Henley, including inter alia:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Dutch act:  suicide
> > > >>> Dutch bargain:  a bargain all on one side
> > > >>> Dutch-clock:  a bedpan; a wife
> > > >>> Dutch concert/medley:  a raucous hubbub
> > > >>> Dutch consolation:  Job=E2=80=99s comfort (=3D =E2=80=9Ccould be
> wo=
> rse=E2=80=9D)
> > > >>> Dutch courage:  pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication
> > > >>> Dutch fuck:  the practice of lighting one cigarette from another
> > > >>> Dutch milk:  beer
> > > >>> Dutch treat:  an outing at which one pays one=E2=80=99s own way
> > > >>> Dutch widow:  a prostitute
> > > >>> Dutch wife:  a bolster (on a bed)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> =E2=80=94very much along the lines of:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Irish apricot (apple, lemon):  a potato
> > > >>> Irishman=E2=80=99s dinner:  a fast
> > > >>> Irish evidence:  false witness
> > > >>> Irish kiss:  a slap in the face
> > > >>> Irish promotion:  a pay-cut
> > > >>> Irish twins:  two siblings who are not twins but are born less
> than=
>  a
> > > >> year
> > > >>> apart
> > > >>> Irish wedding:  the emptying of a cesspool
> > > >>>
> > > >>> LH
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Dec 27, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Peter Reitan <pjreitan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I assumed that impression could have come from "German" or "Dutch"
> > > >>> comedians who spoke in "dialect".
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Weber and Fields were active during that period.  Several examples
> > of
> > > >>> their humor are available on youtube.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> https://youtu.be/l75t6Fmydqk
> > > >>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf
> > of
> > > >>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 10:52:55 AM
> > > >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: to "dutch"
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >>> -----------------------
> > > >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>> Subject:      Re: to "dutch"
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> It sounds like adhockery to me, since I'm unaware of any tradition
> > > that
> > > >>>> Germans "make themselves say what they don't mean." The Irish were
> > > >>>> associated with absurd blunders ("bulls"), making the nonexistent
> > > >> "Irish
> > > >>>> book" a more likely expression of that idea.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Germans were notorious instead for their accents, lager, and
> > sausages.
> > > >>>> Vaudeville stereotyping was common, but no more so than for other
> > > >> ethnic
> > > >>>> groups.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Interesting find, though.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> JL
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:34 AM Peter Reitan <
> pjreitan at hotmail.co=
> m
> > >
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> An early explanation of the word suggests it was "derived from
> th=
> e
> > > >> habit
> > > >>>>> some ignorant Germans have of making themselves say what they
> don=
> 't
> > > >>> mean,
> > > >>>>> and the flippant sports apply the term to a book that 'wins
> > > backward,'
> > > >>> or
> > > >>>>> stands to lose no matter which horse wons the race."
> > > >>>>> https://www.newspapers.com/clip/66134635/the-los-angeles-times/
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> LA Times, October 25, 1903, page 23.
> > > >>>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on
> behalf
> > of
> > > >>>>> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 7:33:28 AM
> > > >>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>>> Subject: to "dutch"
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >>>>> -----------------------
> > > >>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > >>>>> Subject:      to "dutch"
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> "To lay bets in such a way as to win by covering all
> possibilitie=
> s
> > > >>>>> proportionately; also fig."
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Not in OED.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1902 _St. Paul Globe_ (Dec. 21) 33: When the book was "Dutched,"
> =
> it
> > > >>> meant
> > > >>>>> that the player turned the tables on the bookie, and played every
> > > >> horse
> > > >>> in
> > > >>>>> the race, certain of winning on practically all. ...In the days
> > when
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>> men in the ring had the large slates, standing up in full view,
> o=
> n
> > > >> which
> > > >>>>> the prices were clearly written in large figures, it was an easy
> > > >> matter
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>> "Dutch" the books. [How-to details follow.]
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1910 _Washington Times_ (Sept. 4) 12: The Cubs will be stronger
> > > >>> favorites
> > > >>>>> in Chicago than in Philadelphia. Fine chance to "Dutch the book."
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1914 _Evening Bulletin _ (Providence, R.I.) (Sept. 11) Sec. III
> 9=
> :
> > At
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>> beginning of the season these sporting men backed the champions
> a=
> t
> > > >>> prices
> > > >>>>> of 1 to 2 and 1 to 3. They are now endeavoring to lay off as a
> > matter
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>> protection, to Dutch the book, in other words.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1916 _Denver Rocky Mountain News_ (Dec. 3) (Want Ads Section) 3:
> > FOR
> > > >>> SALE -
> > > >>>>> ACRES AND RANCHES... A Chance to Dutch the Book...for $300 under
> > > >> value,
> > > >>>>> raise vegetables and chickens; you can't lose.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1924 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Oct. 2) (Sports) 2: One could
> > easily
> > > >>> "dutch
> > > >>>>> the book" by betting on Washington in New York and the Giants in
> > San
> > > >>>>> Francisco. On such a basis, one would wager $1000 in New York to
> > win
> > > >>> $1200
> > > >>>>> and $1000 in San Francisco to win $1250.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1932 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (June 14) (Sports) 15: In the East
> > you
> > > >>> might
> > > >>>>> bet $800 on Schmeling against $1000. In San Francisco you would
> > then
> > > >>> wager
> > > >>>>> $800 on Sharkey. What would happen? You would stand to win $200
> n=
> o
> > > >>> matter
> > > >>>>> who might win. Of course, in the case of a draw, you would be
> > > upsticks
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>>> nobody hurt. But it is not always easy to make sure of "Dutching
> > the
> > > >>> book."
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1986 _Jersey Journal_ (Jersey City) (Apr. 14) 24: So get ready to
> > > >> dutch
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>> book.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The origin? Evidently < "Dutch book" (not in OED), 'a bookmaker's
> > > >>> inexpert
> > > >>>>> odds that allow a bettor to profit by wagering proportionately on
> > all
> > > >>>>> possibilities; also fig.'
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1894 _Evansville [Ind.] Courier and Press_ (June 15) 7: Parties
> > > ...who
> > > >>> seem
> > > >>>>> content to be called bookmakers even if they do offer to the
> publ=
> ic
> > > >>> what is
> > > >>>>> commonly known in the ring as a Dutch book....[T]heir patrons get
> > the
> > > >>> best
> > > >>>>> of it, as long as it lasts.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1895 _San Francisco Chronicle_ (Jan. 9)  10: Then Joe went after
> > > Motor
> > > >>>>> money. What kind of a Dutch book did Joe have with Motor at 13 to
> > 5,
> > > >>>>> Realization at 8 to 5, and Elise at 6 to 1?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1911 _Evening World_ (N.Y.C.) (Mar. 2) (Daily Mag.):
> Concentrate=
> !
> > > The
> > > >>>>> fellow who plays for General Results is making a Dutch book on
> > > >> himself!
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 1930 _Times-Union_ (Albany, N.Y.) (JUne 8) B-5:  Obviously Shaw
> > could
> > > >>> not
> > > >>>>> lay these prices under any other system for the reason that he
> > would
> > > >>> likely
> > > >>>>> be making a "dutch" book.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Why "Dutch" (presumably "German")?  The quest goes on.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> JL
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> t=
> he
> > > >>> truth."
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> th=
> e
> > > >>> truth."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth."
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
> --=20
> - Wilson
> -----
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -Mark Twain
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


-- 
- Wilson
-----
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-Mark Twain

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org


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