[Ads-l] weird "which"

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Wed Jul 8 15:14:40 UTC 2020


Actually, due to my carelessness, my message below (wondering about the isogloss) and Matt’s response to it (not included here) were about Jon’s reference to the /w/~/hw/ merger, not about the conjunctive “which”. At some point the topic, but not the subject line shifted.  The latter is definitely a topic of interest to the YGDP and we were putting a page together when the pandemic hit, but may return to it again.

LH


> On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:52 AM, Herbert F. Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> I know it from growing up in small town SE Michigan, and my wife, from a Toledo suburb, is a native whicher.  A recent example:  We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained.  Not even a resumptive.
> 
> Herb
> 
> On July 8, 2020, at 10:10 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> 
> What is the isogloss?  Does anyone know?  It’s not grammatical enough for the Yale Grammatical Diversity Project, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be curious.  I’m sure it’s age-graded as well as regional, but I’d love to see a map.
> 
> LH
> 
>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> Everybody in these parts says / hw /
>> 
>> Except me.
>> 
>> JL
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 12:23 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:17 AM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> these pun-based titles are almost inevitable
>>>> 
>>>> Not so much, if you're a speaker of an idiolect that retains voiceless
>>> w. I
>>>> was amused by the crude attempt of the "Chicago _which_-hunt," till it
>>> was
>>>> pointed out to me that I may be the last, living native-speaker of
>>> English
>>>> to pronounce _wh_ as "hw,”
>>> 
>>> Naah, there ’s a bunch of you.  I’ve been living with one for 43 years.
>>> But that wouldn’t *really* prevent you from grokking the puns in question,
>>> including the Great Chicago Which Hunt (their parasession volume on
>>> relative clauses back in the early ‘70s, for the uninitiated)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> except in the case of _whoop_, pronounced
>>>> "hoop." Cf. cognate German _hupen_, as in the trallic-sign, _NICHT HUPEN_
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> They can’t all be so interpreted.  A couple of earlier papers on it:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rudy Loock. 2007. “Are you a good which or a bad which?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> https://www.academia.edu/1436761/Are_you_a_good_which_or_a_bad_which_The_relative_pronoun_as_a_plain_connective
>>>>> 
>>>>> Burke, Isabelle 2017. "Wicked Which: The Linking Relative in Australian
>>>>> English." Australian Journal of Linguistics, 37(3), 356-386.
>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/yb95mxyg
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, these pun-based titles are almost inevitable, which we probably
>>> could
>>>>> have guessed that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> LH
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 9:23 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Not so weird, because it can be interpreted as a false start.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Unlike the opening line of Bret Harte's "The Heathen Chinee."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I still say mine is the weirdest of whiches.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:15 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I forgot to mention during this thread that Sara Loss at Oklahoma
>>> State
>>>>>>> presented an excellent paper on this “which” (both resumptive and
>>>>>>> non-presumptive) at the most recent ADS annual meeting in New Orleans,
>>>>>>> A change in progress: connective “which”
>>>>>>> I don’t know if she’s publishing it, but there was a lot of nice
>>> Twitter
>>>>>>> data she collected for it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And here’s an older (well, last-century) example I noticed a while
>>> back.
>>>>>>> It’s from 1999, even though I hadn’t begin to notice these “which”es
>>>>> until
>>>>>>> much more recently.   In this weird and wonderful George Saunders
>>> story
>>>>>>> reprinted in the Dec. 30, 2019 issue,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1999/06/21/i-can-speak
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> there’s this:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Or say your dog comes up and gives Derek a lick? You could make Derek
>>>>> say
>>>>>>> (if your dog’s name is Queenie), “QUEENIE, GIVE IT A REST!”  Which,
>>> you
>>>>>>> know what? It makes you love him more. Because suddenly he is
>>>>> articulate.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (Derek is six months old, but equipped with an “I Can SpeakTM” mask
>>> that
>>>>>>> allows him to speak, sort of.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> LH
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>> <accounts at BETHAN.WALES
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ah, okay; I see what you mean. Given what you’ve outlined, if it
>>> isn’t
>>>>>>> just an accidental omission of a word, perhaps this is a further step
>>> in
>>>>>>> normalising a kind of “conjunctive which”? It’s absolutely
>>> fascinating!
>>>>>>> Thanks for the example, and for unpacking how it differs from the
>>> type I
>>>>>>> cited.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 13:35 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This seems even weirder to me, Bethan. The examples you give are of
>>> a
>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>>> familiar to me from my university teaching days in the late '70s.
>>>>>>>>> Whatever the syntactical explanation, both "whiches" can be replaced
>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> (and defined as) 'but.' Exx. meaning 'and' are also possible.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But the current case is not subject to an exclusively lexical
>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>>> The sentence might be normalized in these ways and maybe others:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, which nine out of ten
>>> women
>>>>>>>>> said made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2. "Including a full-size leave-in elixir, and nine out of ten women
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>> it made their hair appear thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> No. 2 is stylistically awkward but perfectly correct. But to get
>>> from
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> of these normal constructions to the Viviscal version requires a
>>>>>>>>> strange shift in understanding the meaning of "which." In No. 1 the
>>>>>>> elixir
>>>>>>>>> is the focus; in No. 2 both the elixir and the comments are equally
>>> in
>>>>>>>>> focus.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But the Viviscal version seems to focus equally on the elixir and on
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> hair. It feels like something between subordination and conjunction.
>>>>>>>>> A simple "and" or "but" won't fix it. And, as I suggested, it's
>>>>>>> appearance
>>>>>>>>> in a TV commercial is, well, astounding, because it suggests that a
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>> of copywriters agreed that it sounded just fine.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:09 AM Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>> <accounts at bethan.wales>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I've noticed this one a lot online, apparently from U.S.-English
>>>>>>> speakers
>>>>>>>>>> in particular. I suspect that it's a reanalysis of the standard
>>>>>>> "which" as
>>>>>>>>>> a relative pronoun into "which" as a conjunction meaning
>>>>> approximately
>>>>>>> "in
>>>>>>>>>> relation to which", "as a result of which", etc.. So instead of
>>>>>>>>>> understanding "which" as the object of the main clause, it's
>>>>>>> understood as
>>>>>>>>>> a conjunction linking a main clause to the preceding noun phrase.
>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>>> quite a few examples along the lines of:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> "She told me to go, which I was not going to do that."
>>>>>>>>>> "They said they were stealing, which my kids would totally not
>>> steal
>>>>>>>>>> anything."
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the step from "[noun phrase], which I wasn't
>>>>> going
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do" to "[noun phrase], which I wasn't going to do that" is a fairly
>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>>>> one. I'd be interested to hear your opinions.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> BTW
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Myfyrwraig PhD | PhD Student CorCenCC
>>>>>>>>>> Prifysgol Abertawe | Swansea University
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> CV: LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Jun 2020, 10:55 +0100, Jonathan Lighter <
>>>>> wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Weird to me, anyway, especially in a pricey, presumably carefully
>>>>>>> edited
>>>>>>>>>> TV
>>>>>>>>>>> commercial for a glamour hair product:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> "Including a full-size leave-in elixir which nine out of ten women
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>>> their hair appeared thicker and fuller in just one week!"
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> JL
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>>>> truth."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>>>> truth."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> -Wilson
>>>> -----
>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
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