[Ads-l] Fwd: "Say good night, Gracie"

Fri Jul 17 01:02:08 UTC 2020

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: dave at WILTON.NET
> Subject: Re: "Say good night, Gracie"
> Date: July 16, 2020 at 3:22:09 PM EDT
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> 
> Sounds to me like an example of the "Mandela effect." A shared false memory.
> Named after a widespread memory among many people of watching news reports
> of Nelson Mandela's death in prison in the 1990s.

Or the powerful memory the end of The Wizard of Oz of the camera panning on Dorothy’s ruby slippers--still red, and now under her bed, when she’s back in Kansas.  A friend claims that she and others remember this distinctly, and that this must have been removed from the VCR and DVD prints now extant…

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of Stephen
> Goranson
> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 9:15 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Say good night, Gracie"
> 
> Somewhat related guess: if Gracie Allen had said that, at least on the radio
> or TV, someone would likely have remarked about it and that remark been
> found by now. Also, if it had been funny once, wouldn't they likely repeat
> that?
> 
> Somewhat related search issue: deciding whether "say uncle" really came from
> a *parrot* joke, and if so, why no certain (or, uncontested) evidence until
> decades later?
> 
> Somewhat related shtick, reportedly from The Three Stooges in
> "Micro-Phonies" in 1945:
> Alice: I Hear the voice of spring anew (Opera sings)
> Moe: Hey boys, I must be dead,I hear an angel singin'
> Alice: Love is like a flower.
> Curly: My Nyuk,Nyuk,Nyuk ain't she pretty?
> Moe: Boy, you can say that again!
> Curly: My Nyuk,Nyuk,Nyuk ain't she pretty?
> Moe: Shut up!(Moe hits Curly)
> Curly: You said I could!
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 5:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "Say good night, Gracie"
> 
> Interesting topic, Ben. George Burns stated that the dialog was a myth in
> his 1988 book "Gracie: A Love Story".
> 
> [ref] 1988, Gracie: A Love Story by George Burns, Chapter 5, Quote Page 161,
> G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York. (Verified with scans) [/ref]
> 
> [Begin excerpt]
> It's a show-business myth that Gracie replied to my request to "Say
> goodnight, Gracie," by saying, "Good night, Gracie." In fact, that's
> probably one of the most misquoted lines in theater history. Maybe she said
> it once, but I don't even remember that. She simply said, "Good night."
> There were many reasons for that, the main one was that I just never thought
> of "Good night, Gracie." And now that I've thought of it, from now on she
> will have said it.
> [End excerpt]
> 
> Someone compiled dozens of video segments showing the sign-off dialog during
> which George Burns says, "Say good night, Gracie", "Gracie, say good night",
> or simply "Say goodnight". Gracie Burns never replied with the widely
> attributed punchline within these two compilations.
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k877AgQR0Ws__;!!
> OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrxilCqL2v5g5A-NSUKKlLZciQumZ9-wAXjIWVNQdk_$
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hNqmuTvbik__;!!
> OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrxilCqL2v5g5A-NSUKKlLZciQumZ9-wAXjIZOpsDk9$
> 
> Ben gives a template:
> 
> Person A: "Say good night, X"
> Person B: "Goodnight X.
> 
> This is an instance of a more general template:
> 
> Person A: "Say, X"
> Person B: "X"
> 
> Person A: "Tell me, X"
> Person B: "X"
> 
> Examples:
> Person A: "Say you love me"
> Person B: "You love me"
> 
> Person A: "Please tell me you are happy."
> Person B: "You are happy."
> 
> To my ear this sounds like vaudeville-style humor; probably earlier.
> But I haven't been able to determine a search pattern to uncover citations.
> 
> Garson
> 
> On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 11:12 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps Garson or one of our other quote-meisters could help figure 
>> this one out.
>> 
>> Wikipedia currently has the following unsourced section in its Gracie 
>> Allen biography about the famous "Say good night, Gracie" exchange 
>> associated with her and George Burns.
>> 
>> ----
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_Allen
>> **A22Say_good_night,_Gracie*22__;IyUl!!OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrx
>> ilCqL2v5g5A-NSUKKlLZciQumZ9-wAXjIdfjERgG$
>> The legend was born of their vaudeville routine and carried over to 
>> both radio and television. As the show wrapped up, Burns would look at 
>> Allen and say "Say good night, Gracie", to which she would usually 
>> simply reply "Good night." But popular legend has it that she would say,
> "Good night, Gracie."
>> According to George Burns, recordings of their radio and television 
>> shows, and several histories of old-time radio (John Dunning's On the 
>> Air: The Encyclopedia of Old-Time Radio, for example), Gracie never used
> the phrase.
>> The confusion may have been caused by Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In. Stars 
>> Dan Rowan and Dick Martin used a similar sign-off routine wherein 
>> Rowan would tell Martin to "Say good night, Dick." Martin's reply was 
>> always "Good night, Dick." It seemed like something Gracie Allen would
> have said.
>> George Burns himself said as much in an interview years later, adding 
>> that, surprisingly enough, no one ever thought of having Allen say 
>> "Good night, Gracie". However, the former Burns and Allen head writer, 
>> Paul Henning, did use the "say good night" bit in at least one episode 
>> of The Beverly Hillbillies ("The Richest Woman", aired January 5, 
>> 1966, two years before Laugh-In premiered. JED: "Say good night, 
>> Jethro." JETHRO: "Good night,
>> Jethro.")
>> ----
>> 
>> A quick check of the newspaper databases reveals that the "Say good 
>> night, Gracie" bit was associated with Burns & Allen before 1966. The 
>> earliest clear-cut example I found, giving the full exchange, appeared 
>> after Allen's death in 1964, in an unsigned editorial that ran in 
>> several papers with the headline "Good Night, Gracie":
>> 
>> ----
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.newspapers.com/clip/55325610/s
>> ay-good-night-gracie/__;!!OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrxilCqL2v5g5A-N
>> SUKKlLZciQumZ9-wAXjIRBjfz5E$ Marion (Ohio) Star, Aug. 29, 1964, p. 6, 
>> col. 2 How was it George used to say, "Say goodnight, Gracie"? And she 
>> would say, "Goodnight, Gracie." And all of us repeat it now, with a 
>> lump in the throat, "Goodnight, Gracie." We loved you, too.
>> ----
>> 
>> Another unsigned editorial, headlined "Say Good Night, Gracie," is 
>> similar in form, but it doesn't explicitly say that Allen would 
>> respond to Burns's "Say good night, Gracie" with "Good night, Gracie":
>> 
>> ----
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.newspapers.com/clip/55325638/s
>> ay-good-night-gracie/__;!!OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrxilCqL2v5g5A-N
>> SUKKlLZciQumZ9-wAXjIeGehImj$ Cincinnati Enquirer, Sep. 3, 1964, p. 6, 
>> col. 1 Her humor, refreshing and wholesome, is very nearly a lost 
>> commodity these days. George, of course, was the perfect fall guy 
>> whose only escape from Gracie's logic was the team's signature line of 
>> "Say good night, Gracie!"
>> ----
>> 
>> Likewise, when Allen retired from television in 1958, a headline 
>> included "Good night, Gracie" with no indication of the full exchange:
>> 
>> ----
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.newspapers.com/clip/55325587/g
>> ood-night-gracie/__;!!OToaGQ!_43GsP5PnNUmHzHjvGfnHCrxilCqL2v5g5A-NSUKK
>> lLZciQumZ9-wAXjIXTpfkWT$ Indianapolis News, Feb. 22, 1958, p. 7, col. 
>> 2 Good Night, Gracie George Finally to Get His Own Laughs
>> ----
>> 
>> This would all still fit with the claim on Wikipedia, that the 
>> exchange between Burns & Allen was actually "Say good night, Gracie" /
> "Good night,"
>> and only after the fact was Allen's response remembered as "Good 
>> night, Gracie." So, was the line misremembered that way before Allen's 
>> death in 1964? And were there other instances of the "Say good night, 
>> X" / "Good night, X" gag predating "The Beverly Hillbillies" and 
>> "Laugh-In" that could have reinforced the idea that Allen used the same
> formula?
>> 
>> --bgz
>> 
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