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<font size=3>To put Victor's statement a different way --<br><br>
Sense 4 [a] is the "district or territory" sense, following 1-3
which are (loosely speaking) "stake/fence/boundary",
"enclosing boundary", and "area enclosed by a
fence/boundary". Under sense 4 appear the Irish pale, the Russian
pale, and the French pale, in that order of appearance in English. Then
sense 5 is the various figurative usages, of which "beyond the
pale" is 5.c.<br><br>
At 1/2/2011 09:41 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">I had to scratch my head a bit
to figure out what Joel meant, although,<br>
once you connect the dots, it makes perfect sense. The OED has
"beyond<br>
the pale" only back to 1720, so the other dates are just for pale
5.a.<br>
and 5.b. and 4.a.--"beyond the pale" is pale 5.c. and the
three<br>
identifiable geographic "pales" are 4.b-d. But Joel is
absolutely<br>
correct that "pale" refers to a number of artificial
boundaries, not<br>
just the one in Ireland or the one in Ukraine, plus it has a more<br>
generic meaning.<br><br>
But I mentioned it earlier and Joel made a reference to the same note
on<br>
5.c.:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">The theory that the origin of
the phrase relates to any of several<br>
specific regions, such as the area of Ireland formerly called the
Pale<br>
(see sense 4b) or the Pale of Settlement in Russia (see sense 4c),
is<br>
_not_supported_by_the_early_historical_evidence_ and is likely to be
a<br>
later rationalization.</blockquote><br>
Why can't we just assume that "beyond the pale" means almost
literally<br>
what it says? That something is "outside the fence" or beyond
the boundary?</font></blockquote><br>
I see one distinction as being between "beyond the" of a pale
sense 4, a literal fence or boundary, where the phrase does not require
an explicit definition; and the "beyond the" of a pale sense 5,
where the pale is a metaphorical fence or boundary, and where the phrase
has acquired (in some or most usages -- except for "beyond the
[Russian] pale"! -- negative connotations.<br><br>
Joel</body>
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