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<font size=3>At 1/8/2014 11:16 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On Jan 8, 2014, at 9:59 PM, Joel
S. Berson wrote:<br><br>
> Larry asked:<br>
>> Is there a term (other than more general terms like
"rehabilitation", "reclamation", or
"amelioration") for the process in which a pejorative term
associated with the lower classes (in both economic and moral senses) is
upgraded in this way?<br>
><br>
> Gentrification? Although the OED only raises the urban to the
middling class, not the elite. Apparently "gentrify" has
lost the association with the "gentry".<br>
><br>
> Joel<br><br>
I fear that gentrification glosses over the frisson of their seedy
history, the nostalgie de la boue, that such words still retain even
after their upgrading.</font></blockquote><br>
I suppose it does. How about "comme ci comme ça
gentrification"?<br><br>
Joel<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=3>LH<br>
><br>
><br>
> At 1/8/2014 08:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:<br>
>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > At 1/8/2014 03:22 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:<br>
>> >> Of "dive," Wiktionary (
<a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive" eudora="autourl">
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive</a>) says:<br>
>> >> "(slang) A seedy bar, nightclub, etc."<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Wikipedia (
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive_bar" eudora="autourl">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive_bar</a>), however, says:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> -----<br>
>> >> A dive bar is an informal bar or pub. Such bars are
sometimes<br>
>> >> referred to as neighborhood bars, where local residents
gather to<br>
>> >> drink and socialize.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Individual bars may be considered to be disreputable,
sinister, or<br>
>> >> even a detriment to the community. This was especially
true in earlier times:<br>
>> >> -----<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Having grown up in earlier times (but later than
Prohibition!!), I<br>
>> > associate "dive" with something disreputable or
potentially<br>
>> > dangerous. (And not with "informal" or
"neighborhood", as Wikipedia<br>
>> > asserts.) But it may have acquired an upper-crust or
posh sense,<br>
>> > perhaps of "unusual" or "interesting because
off-beat", more recently.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Joel<br>
>><br>
>> Is there a term (other than more general terms like
"rehabilitation", "reclamation", or
"amelioration") for the process in which a pejorative term
associated with the lower classes (in both economic and moral senses) is
upgraded in this way? (Joel's "interesting because off-beat"
gloss often comes close to describing the end-result.) I'm thinking
not only of "dive" for places but "rascal",
"scamp", or "rogue" for people, and
"raffish" or "louche" for the associated
properties. In each case, the earliest OED cites/glosses are all
quite negative, and some of the synonyms of such words (e.g. those
descriptors listed in the OED under these headings) haven't been as
fortunate: "sleazy", "creep",
"villain",... "Going rogue" is one thing (and
has been since at least 1932), "going villain/unprincipled", if
it exists at all, would be something else. The fact that
"dive" and "dive bar" seem to have parted evaluative
company is a nice illustration of this randomness in which it!<br>
ems!<br>
>> get pardoned.<br>
>><br>
>> LH<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> >> I think the second sentence also means
"neighborhood bars are<br>
>> >> generally referred to as dives." That is how I
understand the word<br>
>> >> "dive," essentially the equivalent of a
"tavern," a word I don't<br>
>> >> hear people using much anymore. (In Washington State, a
"tavern" is<br>
>> >> defined as a drinking establishment that sells only
beer and wine<br>
>> >> (
<a href="http://dor.wa.gov/Content/DoingBusiness/BusinessTypes/Industry/Tavern/default.aspx" eudora="autourl">
http://dor.wa.gov/Content/DoingBusiness/BusinessTypes/Industry/Tavern/default.aspx</a>
),<br>
>> >> but I am referring to the atmosphere regardless of
whether spirits are sold.)<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I would not generally consider a brew pub to be a dive,
though there<br>
>> >> probably are places that could convince me of their
diviness.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I'm not sure what VS is talking about exactly, but I
suspect this is<br>
>> >> along the lines of a divy brew pub that is, exuding an
atmosphere<br>
>> >> below the casual level.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Nobody else has commented on John Doe's (WG's)
interesting<br>
>> >> observation of dive vs. dive bar; this divy development
along with<br>
>> >> dive restaurants may be an indication that the word has
shifted permanently.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> This leaves the problem of what to call a disreputable
bar. Even "a<br>
>> >> shit/shitty hole in the wall" is likely a
dysphemism for a divy<br>
>> >> neighborhood tavern/restaurant.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Benjamin Barrett<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Victor Steinbok
<aardvark66@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > I've noticed conflicting usage in the last decade
or so. One is indeed<br>
>> >> > along GT's outline. But there's a particular
"underground" sense where a<br>
>> >> > dive bar would be fashionable among a particular
kind of clientele. It's<br>
>> >> > hard to describe, but it cannot be truly upscale,
must be fairly well<br>
>> >> > priced, serve particular kinds of drinks,
including retro cocktails and<br>
>> >> > exude a certain kind of "dive"
atmosphere. Merely calling it<br>
>> >> > "fashionable" is not enough. But it does
appear to reflect a common GenY<br>
>> >> > reversal.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > VS-)<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > On 1/7/2014 4:07 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:<br>
>> >> >> Good question. It might be a retronym to
distinguish it from<br>
>> >> dive restaurants.
<a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive" eudora="autourl">
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dive</a> says "A seedy<br>
>> >> bar, nightclub, etc."<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Jan 7, 2014, at 12:49 AM, John Doe
<hwgray@GMAIL.COM> wrote:<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Benjamin
Barrett<br>
>> >> <gogaku@ix.netcom.com>wrote:<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>>> dive bar<br>
>> >> >>><br>
>> >> >>> In what way does a "dive *bar*"
distinguish itself from an<br>
>> >> ordinary "dive"?<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>
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>> ><br>
>> >
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>><br>
>>
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