<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Posoh fellow Algonquian dictionary compilers...<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>As promised, I'm going to throw out a topic for discussion. This has arisen in the context of our Menominee dictionary. We of course have used Bloomfield's Lexicon as a base, and sometimes he marks things as "archaic." We put a checkbox into our database and checked it when he made that notation. However, it dawned on me that there was another, similar situation, which was when we asked our speakers about a word from the Lexicon, and they didn't know it. We were putting that in our notes field as "not familiar." So I started wondering if we should check "archaic" for those, or have a new checkbox, or what. It seemed important to me to have a record of what Bloomfield found to be archaic in the 1920s and to keep that distinct from what the speakers today are not familiar with. I think there's a difference between words that were archaic in the 1920s when there was still a viable community of speakers, and words which are unknown today, when there are very few speakers and the language is in a severe state of attrition. Furthermore, there is definite register compression (to use Ives' term), with the elders constantly saying "oh, that's that High Menominee, which we didn't learn." We started a project-internal discussion of it and Becky Shields wrote this long message laying out a huge list of possibilities (which I'll paste in below), and now we're stumped about how much to include. So I thought I'd ask the list, and see if anyone else has considered this issue. Here's Becky's message:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">Thanks for the discussion – I think I see the complexity of the issue more clearly now. And I now agree that it would be useful to distinguish between various types of “unknown” words.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">Here’s the way I see it now (sorry if I’m repeating a lot of what you just said – just trying to systematize it in a way that makes sense to me):</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">There are at least two different issues:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1)</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">there are colloquial and formal registers, and the formal register may contain archaic words which (presumably) used to be in the colloquial register in the past, but now survive only in prayers, storytelling, etc. Speakers familiar with the formal register know these words, but do not use them in everyday conversation.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">2)</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">there are words that have totally fallen out of use (in all registers). These are “unknown” words.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">In addition, the data we are analyzing come from two distinct time periods:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">A)</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1920’s</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">B)</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">contemporary (1980’s-present, if we include data gathered by Tim Guile, etc.?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">In principle, there could be distinct sets of both archaic and unknown words at each time period. So there are four possibilities:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 24px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1A) archaic words in the 1920s – words LB found in use only in the formal register, presumably the ones he calls “archaic” in the lexicon</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 24px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">2A) unknown words in the 1920s – words from earlier sources (like Hoffman?) that LB’s speakers did not know. If LB didn’t do this type of elicitation, we may not be aware of any of these.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 24px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1B) contemporary archaic words – words that speakers currently know, but use only in formal registers like prayers. Lavina and Marie may not know this register much at all, but perhaps some male speakers (Joe Beaver?) do, or perhaps there are some prayers or stories on the pre-2000 tapes. I have definitely heard Marie and Sarah say about certain words that they recognized them only from some prayer, so this set certainly has some members.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 24px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">2B) contemporary unknown words – words not in use by contemporary speakers. As you point out, we have a very limited set of contemporary speakers, even if tapes from the 80s and 90s are included. This limits our data set, and in addition contemporary speakers probably have a smaller vocabulary than speakers in the 20s, due to the moribund status of the language. This is just a fact of life though, and I don’t know what we can do about it, other than be very very sad! We are certainly obligated to report what we actually observe, and not what we wish we had observed. And definitely not try to pretend we observed what LB observed. Accurately documenting language attrition could also be very useful.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">The sets obviously might overlap – so words in 1A may now be in 1B, 2B, or even have become known (although this seems unlikely). So actually for any given word there are multiple possibilities. These seem the most likely combinations to me:</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1A-1B (used to be archaic – still archaic)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1A-2B (used to be archaic – now unknown)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">2A-2B (used to be unknown – still unknown)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">1B (used to be colloquial – now archaic)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">2B (used to be colloquial – now unknown)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="text-indent: -24px;margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 48px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">(and of course the unmarked case – used to be colloquial – still colloquial)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">Maybe that’s more detail than anybody needs or wants, I don’t know. </SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Wingdings" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> But as you guys pointed out, this info could be useful to historical/comparative linguists, and community members interested in bringing back older words, and also people studying language death.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"> </SPAN></FONT></P><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;">-becky</SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001781" face="Arial" size="4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13.3px;"></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px">So we would be very interested to hear what y'all have to say on the matter.<BR></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px">Thanks!</P><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Monica Macaulay</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Department of Linguistics</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">1168 Van Hise Hall</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">1220 Linden Drive</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Madison, WI<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>53706</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">phone (608) 262-2292</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">fax (608) 265-3193</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><A href="http://ling.wisc.edu/~macaulay/monica.html">http://ling.wisc.edu/~macaulay/monica.html</A></FONT></P> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>