<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I got this very helpful message from David Costa and since it just came to me am taking the liberty of forwarding it to the list. I think the list is set up so that replies just go to the sender and not the list, which is silly. I'll check into changing that.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>- Monica<BR><DIV><BR><DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>From: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">David Costa <<A href="mailto:pankihtamwa@earthlink.net">pankihtamwa@earthlink.net</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">April 18, 2006 3:06:48 PM CDT</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Monica Macaulay <<A href="mailto:mmacaula@WISC.EDU">mmacaula@WISC.EDU</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Cc: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Daryl Baldwin <<A href="mailto:baldwidw@muohio.edu">baldwidw@muohio.edu</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Subject: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><B>Re: relative roots</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Monica:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We're currently going through the archaic English words that<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Bloomfield used</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in his Menominee lexicon and trying to come up with<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>more colloquial</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">defintions.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>While thinking about 'thus' and what we<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>could replace it with, I</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">realized that there's an intersecting<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>problem, which is due to the fact that</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">all of the verbs that have<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>'thus' in their definition - not surprisingly -</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">have the relative<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>root aeN- in them.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>We were going to change 'thus' to 'in</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>manner' but it occurs to me that that might be interpreted as a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">complete definition.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>So, take the verb that Bloomfield translates as<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>'it</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">glows thus' - we could change it to 'it glows in that manner' but<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">dictionary user might not realize that it's a verb that needs a<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>manner adverb</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">- and that using it without one would actually be<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>ungrammatical to a native</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">speaker.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Conversely they might not realize<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>how to translate it in a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">sentence; i.e. if you used this verb with<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>'brightly' the meaning would be 'it</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">glows brightly' - NOT 'it glows<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>brightly in that manner' or something like</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Have any of you<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>wrestled with this one and come up with a good</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">solution?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Well, it seems to me that the 'thus'/'in that manner' dilemma and the worry</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">about people thinking the gloss is a complete definition are separate</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">issues. In our Miami dictionary, we used 'thus' a lot, but I think that was</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">just because it's all over the Algonquian literature that way and we're so</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">used to it. Perhaps in retrospect '(in) that way' or 'so' might have been a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">bit more user-friendly since 'thus' is such a marginal word in modern spoken</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">English.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A related issue of course is how much info one puts into a dictionary<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>without</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">crossing over the line into being a grammar.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I think we<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>probably are all</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">making somewhat different decisions about where to<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>draw that line, and I</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">haven't decided yet where it would be drawn in<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>a case like this.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">And this is the second issue! I think the problem of speakers not knowing</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">exactly how to use a word grammatically just based on its dictionary</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">definition is just unavoidable. In my opinion, at the most one could write</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">'relative root' in the gloss along with the form class, then in the intro</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">refer the user to a grammatical sketch somewhere; or one could explain in</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the intro that when a word has that prefix and 'thus' (or 'in that manner',</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or whatever) in its gloss, here's what it means, and see the grammatical</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">sketch. Explaining the details of how to use a relative root ninety</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">different times in a dictionary would just drive people crazy, and they'd</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">just have to refer to the grammar anyway.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I've encountered people (not Miamis!) who want Native American languages to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">be spelled just like English, so that they supposedly won't have to learn</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">any pronunciation rules. When one learns any new language, one has to master</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that language's spelling and pronunciation idiosyncracies, and one does not</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">have the right to expect the rules to be the same as English. Grammar is</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the same way -- I've also had people (again, not Miamis) ask "can't we learn</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">this language without any grammar?" The answer is no, of course --</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Algonquian grammar is SO different from English grammar, anyone who wants to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">make meaningful use of an Algonquian dictionary is going to have to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">familiarize themselves with a certain amount of grammar. Using a dictionary</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of Spanish or Polish or Swahili would be the same way. And you can't</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">make grammar totally transparent in a dictionary.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Anyway, I hope these comments are useful.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dave</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Monica Macaulay</DIV><DIV>Department of Linguistics</DIV><DIV>University of Wisconsin</DIV><DIV>1168 Van Hise Hall; 1220 Linden Drive</DIV><DIV>Madison, WI 53706</DIV><DIV>phone (608) 262-2292; fax (608) 265-3193</DIV><DIV><A href="http://ling.wisc.edu/~macaulay/monica.html">http://ling.wisc.edu/~macaulay/monica.html</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>