<html><head><base href="x-msg://602/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">tch, John Steckley - verbal finger pointing!<div>cheers anyway</div><div>Old retired non-marking Dick</div><div><br><div><div>On 2013-03-06, at 2:20 PM, John Steckley wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Don’t you Algonquianists have real work to do, or like me right now, are you avoiding marking<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">John Steckley<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">(mainly an Iroquoianist)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ALGONQUIANA [mailto:ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Bruce White<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, March 06, 2013 12:55 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: pointing, not with finger<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">In my wife's Irish American family it is considered to be very crude for wait staff in restaurants point the way to the bathroom, so that the quality of the restaurant will be determined by that fact alone. More relevant is that I've heard Dakota people in Minnesota joke about the whole lip-pointing thing. Unfortunately because my Irish-American grandfather was a Methodist minister who loved to point during sermons for emphasis, I have inherited that nasty practice even when speaking with with Dakota and Ojibwe people, much as I have tried to learn Bill Clinton's technique of knuckle pointing.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Bruce White<br><br>On 3/6/2013 11:43 AM, Margaret Noori wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; ">Miigwech / Merci for the additional details! It does seem there are international indigenous consistencies. . . Amy will have to tell us all how she interprets all this! : )<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:28 PM, David Lessard <<a href="mailto:david.lessard2@mail.mcgill.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">david.lessard2@mail.mcgill.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">They were indeed quick about it. I just had asked it casually, like spontaneously in the moment. So I don't mean to have any conclusion with it. They were two men who told me so, one in his 40s and the other in his 60s, and they were from totally different places and did not know each other. I however noticed that they did it systematically and never seen them pointing with finger.<br><br>For Ecuador, it was a friend in his 30s that told me about it. He said that pointing a finger was necessarily accusative and given security issues in the country when he grew up, you could get in much trouble if you pointed randomly at people in public places. I noticed that they would point to things with their lips while still looking at their interlocutor. It was thus quite discreet and when looked at from outside the conversation, you could not tell if they were pointing or nodding, or saying they did not know.<br><br>It both cases, they use both the chin and the lips, as if they were blowing a kiss, but without opening them. I have seen it so many times that the habit grew on me.<br><br>This is all I know, but it is something that always caught my attention, so would like to know more about it.<br><br>David<br><br>Envoyé à partir de mon Windows Phone<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; text-align: center; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">De :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Margaret Noori</span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Envoyé :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">2013-03-06 12:11</span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">À :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a></span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Objet :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Re: pointing, not with finger</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; ">This is interesting. How well did you know the people you asked? How old were they? It seems like 1/2 reply to me and I wonder if they were just being quick about it or if they no longer get taught the same lesson as the Anishinaabe.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 10:44 AM, David Lessard <<a href="mailto:david.lessard2@mail.mcgill.ca" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">david.lessard2@mail.mcgill.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I have seen this among the James Bay Cree. I asked why and they told me it was more efficient when they had their hands full. I did not investigate further though.<br><br>I have been told that it is an habit in Ecuador too.<br><br>David<br><br>Envoyé à partir de mon Windows Phone<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; text-align: center; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">De :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Conor Quinn</span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Envoyé :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">2013-03-06 10:29</span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">À :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ALGONQUIANA@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a></span><br><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Objet :<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Re: pointing, not with finger</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; ">Dia dhaoibh, a chairde!<br><br>Definitely had this pointed out to me by Penobscots; not sure how it may be among the Passamaquoddies, but it rings a bell there, too. No clue as to why, though pointing with the lips (= the acceptable and common strategy) is also common in Australia, I'm told. I might imagine that, other society/culture/belief-system factors aside, being well trained not to point with your hands helps in hunting, since the game-spooking motion is far less salient. But that's just pure speculation on my part.<br><br>Till later, keep safe and sane.<br><br>Slán,<br>bhur gcara<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Amy Dahlstrom <<a href="mailto:a-dahlstrom@uchicago.edu" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">a-dahlstrom@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Hello Algonquianists,<br><br>I'm a discussant at an upcoming conference on gesture, and one thing I thought I would mention to the (extremely diverse) audience is the practice among at least some of the Algonquian peoples of pointing with the lips or with the chin, rather than pointing with the finger.<br><br>I would like to ask you all how widespread this practice is. And for native speakers (native pointers? :-) ), do you have any intuitions about why pointing with the finger is avoided? Would it seem rude to point with the finger? Or inappropriate in some other way?<br><br>thanks in advance for any thoughts you can share!<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "><br><br>Amy<br></span><br>P.S. if you hit "reply" remember that you are replying to the whole list! :-)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">--<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Calligraphy'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Margaret Noori</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Director, Comprehensive Studies Program</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">University of Michigan</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">1111 Angell Hall</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">435 S. State St.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="http://www.lsa.umich.edu/csp/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">www.lsa.umich.edu/csp/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">--<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Calligraphy'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Margaret Noori</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Director, Comprehensive Studies Program</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">University of Michigan</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">1111 Angell Hall</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">435 S. State St.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a href="http://www.lsa.umich.edu/csp/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">www.lsa.umich.edu/csp/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "></p></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html><p>