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<div class="">Yes, and a further complication is that Bloomfield gives all sorts of examples showing how the one designated by the participle can vary, e.g. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0px;" class="">enoh payīnācen 'that one who brings him’</div>
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<div style="margin: 0px;" class="">anenoh payīnācen 'that one who he brings'</div>
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<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This kind of example I will definitely just enter under the verb’s entry. But it’s cases where the participle has developed a more specialized use, as in the example I gave that meant “the presiding officer”, that I think it would be useful to
enter as some sort of nominal (or phrase or what-have-you!).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There’s also variation on whether these ones with nominal translations get nominal or verbal inflection, depending on how lexicalized they are. Unfortunately the one speaker I’m still working with generally doesn’t know these at all (except for
the super-common ones like “carrot”), so I can’t ask any more.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Monica</div>
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</div>
<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 28, 2015, at 10:25 AM, Goddard, Ives <<a href="mailto:GODDARDI@si.edu" class="">GODDARDI@si.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" class="">Note </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">that “</span><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">ayom</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">
payītāqnamapet” lit. “<b class="">this</b> person who sits facing hither’ means ‘<b class="">the</b> presiding officer’ not ‘presiding officer’. The basic verb should be entered, with this as an example; whether participles are also entered separately is
probably in part a question of how big a dictionary you want, but ultimately Menominee dictionary users will want to learn how to look up verb stems under their unchanged form, just as Irish students look words up under the unlenited form. One way to be helpful
to learners and save space is to run in entries like this throughout:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">payīt-: IC of pīt-.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">or something like this:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">pay-: words begining with pay- may be (usually are?) IC forms of words beginning with p-; try looking them up without the -ay-.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A" class="">Ives<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" class=""> Algonquiana [<a href="mailto:algonquiana-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">mailto:algonquiana-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b class="">On Behalf Of </b>MONICA MACAULAY<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, November 26, 2015 1:48 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Marie-Odile Junker <<a href="mailto:MarieOdileJunker@cunet.carleton.ca" class="">MarieOdileJunker@cunet.carleton.ca</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> Algonquiana <<a href="mailto:ALGONQUIANA@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">ALGONQUIANA@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Algonquiana] participle dictionary question<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, Marie-Odile! That’s really helpful! <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 26, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Marie-Odile Junker <<a href="mailto:MarieOdileJunker@cunet.carleton.ca" class="">MarieOdileJunker@cunet.carleton.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Monica, <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think the issue is how to enter nominalisations made of entire phrases (noun/demonstrative+ conjunct verb) or even frequent expressions made of more than one word that speakers do need to look up. Is that correct?<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If the two (or more) elements are independently attested, it is no problem to have both the complete expression, and the separate components in the dictionary and link them to each other, or put the complex expression under the parts. However,
if one element is not attested, then you must put it either under the other ones that are, or on its own as belonging to that particular formation only. In the past (in the time of planning for print books, due to space limitations), these complex formations
were systematically excluded from dictionaries. So for example, there was no “word” for English “lemon” or “lion” in the Innu dictionary.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">One solution we have now adopted for East Cree and Innu (and forthcoming Atikamekw) dictionaries is to have these in the dictionary database, or the terminology forum database, as “expression” and then include them or not in the various
print-out or app versions. <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">For example: we are now adding to the Innu dictionary all clausal nominalisations like: <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ka-shutshetshishi-t aueshish<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">pv</span>-be.strong.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">vai-3cin</span> animal<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> ‘lion’ <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The part of speech is for now “animate expression” (French: expression animée)<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Since these vary a lot across dialects, we add the dialect info, and for new expressions, a reference to the terminology workshop were they were first proposed.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This gives: <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">kashutshetshishit aueshish<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">animate expression<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">lion (literally 'animal who is strong’)<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dialect/Source: Pessamit/…<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Word parts: aueshish, shutshishiu<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Topic: Animals<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Applying this to your example, Monica, I would enter it like this: <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ayom payītāqnamapet<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">animate expression<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">presiding officer (literally: 'this one who sits facing hither')<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Source: Bloomfield, DATE,p.501, Terminology workshop DATE<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Word parts: ayom<span class="apple-tab-span"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(note how <i class="">payītāqnamapet</i> is not there, because it cannot be linked to an attested form for now)<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Topic: Name of professions<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Under the same part of speech “expression” we also have expressions like (taken from the East Cree Northern dictionary
<a href="http://dictionary.eastcree.org/" class="">dictionary.eastcree.org</a>): <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">ᐋᐦ</span>
<span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">ᒥᑯᔖᒌᔑᑳᒡ</span> <span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">
ᐋᐦ</span> <span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">ᒥᒫᑎᐧᐋᔨᐦᑎᒡ</span>
<span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">ᐊᐧᐋᔑᔑᒡ</span><br class="">
aah mikushaachiishikaach aah mimaatiwaayihtich awaashishich<br class="">
expression<br class="">
Christmas concert<br class="">
un concert de Noël<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We have also found that the use of “expression” simplifies the analysis, especially if all the components are not attested independently and does not commit us to identifying all the components nor to a complete grammatical analysis. The
same logic applies to our morpheme dictionary design. <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Have fun with the terminology workshops! <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Marie-Odile<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Le 2015-11-26 à 11:08, Robert M. Leavitt <<a href="mailto:rleavitt@unb.ca" class="">rleavitt@unb.ca</a>> a écrit :<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Monica<br class="">
<br class="">
From a user's point of view, it would seem that the word to be looked up is going to be payītāqnamapet, rather than the complete phrase. You could cross reference to the phrase, or perhaps include it as an example of usage in the entry for payītāqnamapet. I'm
assuming that this word gets used in other contexts as well. <br class="">
<br class="">
Users of an electronic dictionary will be able to find the word regardless of which way it is entered. In a book, they'll probably be looking for payītāqnamapet by itself.<br class="">
<br class="">
The Passamaquoddy-Maliseet dictionary (<a href="http://pmportal.org/" class="">pmportal.org</a>) has hundreds of these participle nouns. The animate participles also have plural and obviative forms (e.g., nisuwihticil - his/her spouse), and some have forms
for first and second person as well (e.g., my spouse - nisuwiyek).<br class="">
<br class="">
Happy compiling!<br class="">
<br class="">
Robert<br class="">
<br class="">
Robert Leavitt<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Sent from my iPad<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 26, 2015, at 11:53, MONICA MACAULAY <<a href="mailto:mmacaula@wisc.edu" class="">mmacaula@wisc.edu</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Yes, I’ll certainly try asking, but I don’t expect that she’ll know it. I think at this point what I have to figure out is what would be most useful to learners, so those are the people I will also be asking.<br class="">
<br class="">
I’m actually going through these because I’m going to do a little presentation for the language teachers about ways to create words. They’ve decided they need to get serious about coining new words for new things. Truly heaven for a morphologist! :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks for your responses!<br class="">
<br class="">
- Monica<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Wolvengrey, Arok <<a href="mailto:awolvengrey@firstnationsuniversity.ca" class="">awolvengrey@firstnationsuniversity.ca</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Hi Monica,<br class="">
<br class="">
I agree with cross-referencing the two. In the glossaries of Ahenakew and Wolfart, which I have followed, the code that we've used for participles, (or invariant, seemingly inflected forms of verbs used as nouns) is INM (indeclinable nominal). In this case,
it would certainly be treated as an animate, and the demonstrative I presume makes that explicit, so it might perhaps be preferable to differentiate the gender of INMs? Or, as Danielle points out, if you can determine if it is fully nominalized (what's the
plural?), then NA should do it.<br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">ᐋᐧᐱ</span> <span style="font-family:"Gadugi",sans-serif" class="">
ᑭᐦᐃᐤ</span><br class="">
Arok Wolvengrey<br class="">
Professor, Algonquian Languages and Linguistics and<br class="">
Department Head of Indigenous Languages, Arts and Cultures<br class="">
First Nations University of Canada<br class="">
1 First Nations Way<br class="">
Regina, SK S4S 7K2<br class="">
<br class="">
phone: (306) 790-5950 ext. 3310<br class="">
fax: (306) 790-5995<br class="">
e-mail: <a href="mailto:awolvengrey@fnuniv.ca" class="">awolvengrey@fnuniv.ca</a><br class="">
<br class="">
________________________________________<br class="">
From: Algonquiana [<a href="mailto:algonquiana-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">algonquiana-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] on behalf of Danielle E. Cyr [<a href="mailto:dcyr@yorku.ca" class="">dcyr@yorku.ca</a>]<br class="">
Sent: November 26, 2015 8:41 AM<br class="">
To: MONICA MACAULAY<br class="">
Cc: Algonquiana<br class="">
Subject: Re: [Algonquiana] participle dictionary question<br class="">
<br class="">
Hi Monica,<br class="">
<br class="">
Very good question. And very tricky. Your idea of cross referencing it seems good. However, I guess you will have to enter one as an a.i.v. and the other as a a.n.<br class="">
<br class="">
Also, even if the initial change has long disappeared in Menominee, you could still ask your speaker how he feels about payītāqnamapet standing alone or not. It might have nominalized as such. See if it can be used with cardinal numbers, with nominal suffixes
or prefixes, etc. Those would be indications of a nominalization and, if so, you could enter it as an a.n. without the demonstrative.<br class="">
<br class="">
Good luck,<br class="">
<br class="">
Danielle<br class="">
___________________________________________Dr. Danielle E. Cyr, Senior Scholar at York University339, boul. Perron ouestNew Richmond, QC, G0C
<a href="mailto:2BOdcyr@yorku.ca" class="">2BOdcyr@yorku.ca</a> - 418.392.7271<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">---- Original Message ----<br class="">
From: MONICA MACAULAY <<a href="mailto:mmacaula@wisc.edu" class="">mmacaula@wisc.edu</a>><br class="">
To: "Algonquiana" <<a href="mailto:ALGONQUIANA@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">ALGONQUIANA@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br class="">
Sent: Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 7:31 AM<br class="">
Subject: [Algonquiana] participle dictionary question<br class="">
<br class="">
Hey fellow dictionary-makers,<br class="">
<br class="">
How would you enter something like this:<br class="">
ayom payītāqnamapet 'this person who sits facing hither; the presiding officer’<br class="">
(from Bloomfield’s Menominee grammar, p. 501)<br class="">
<br class="">
It seems like it would be useful to have a word for ‘presiding officer’ in the dictionary, but it seems weird to enter it under the demonstrative “ayom” (‘this (animate)’). But is it misleading to enter it under the participle "payītāqnamapet”? I have no
idea if you could use it without the demonstrative (and can’t ask the one speaker I’m still working with because initial change is long gone in modern Menominee).<br class="">
<br class="">
The solution I’m thinking of is to enter a cross-reference under “payītāqnamapet” (i.e. it would say “see ayom payītāqnamapet”) and then have "ayom payītāqnamapet” be the main entry.<br class="">
<br class="">
Has anybody dealt with this issue?<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks!<br class="">
<br class="">
- Monica<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Algonquiana mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
Algonquiana mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
Algonquiana mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Algonquiana mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">Algonquiana@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana" class="">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/algonquiana</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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