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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Great Carl! Now we've got something!
You, too, have a nice weekend!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Manang Paz</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=carlrubino@home.com href="mailto:carlrubino@home.com">Carl Rubino</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pnaylor@umich.edu
href="mailto:pnaylor@umich.edu">Paz B. Naylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=AN-LANG@anu.edu.au
href="mailto:AN-LANG@anu.edu.au">AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS</A> ;
<A title=anthony.grant3@btinternet.com
href="mailto:anthony.grant3@btinternet.com">anthony paul Grant</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 13, 2001 10:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: one more point re KILA</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Manang Paz,</DIV>
<DIV>No, kila is not Chinese or Ilocano - it is Tagalog and fits in the
paradigm quite well. Maybe the purist in question didn't accept it as a real
form -- I also mentioned that that same person uses the "l" forms in his
speech and gave an example.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The etymology is:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>kay + *=la (*=da)</DIV>
<DIV>OBL. personal noun 3p (Kapampangan =la, Ilocano =da,
Pangasinan =(i)ra)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(note that the *la is still present in the plural oblique kani-la;
singular form kani-ya, where ya is the pronoun still used in Kapampangan, but
only used with the article si- in Tagalog siya).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> So Panganiban calls kila a provincial variant? What provinces?
Vicassan calls it a colloquial variant which is probably a better
description.</DIV>
<DIV> For people that are not familiar with the paradigms you give, we
should also point out that the first two words in the A column (what I
call the "l" forms) - sila and nila are also the nominative and genitive
pronouns, respectively. Kila is not used as an oblique pronoun, just a plural
personal noun marker, so I added column C to point this out:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Third person plural nominal markers and pronouns</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
(A)</FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2> (B)
Pronouns (C)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
nominative
<STRONG>SI</STRONG>LA <STRONG>SI</STRONG>NA
SILA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
genitive
<STRONG>NI</STRONG>LA
<STRONG>NI</STRONG>NA NILA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
dative/locative
<STRONG>KI</STRONG>LA <STRONG>KI</STRONG>NA
KANILA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> Have a nice weekend,</DIV>
<DIV> Carl</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pnaylor@umich.edu href="mailto:pnaylor@umich.edu">Paz B. Naylor</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=carlrubino@home.com
href="mailto:carlrubino@home.com">Carl Rubino</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=AN-LANG@anu.edu.au
href="mailto:AN-LANG@anu.edu.au">AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS</A>
; <A title=anthony.grant3@btinternet.com
href="mailto:anthony.grant3@btinternet.com">anthony paul Grant</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 13, 2001 8:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> one more point re KILA</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Carl,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You mentioned towards the end of your email
that someone told you that KILA is not Tagalog. Who said so?
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is not Cebuano nor is it Hiligaynon (I
speak both). Is it Ilocano? Is it Chinese? It's certainly
not Spanish (I speak that too) - WHAT IS IT? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> It is most certainly Tagalog! I
just checked it - it is listed in Panganiban as "prov. var. of
<STRONG>kin</STRONG><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><STRONG>á</STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>,</STRONG> q.v."
(?!) I find this surprising and hard to believe as an old Manile<FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>ña. </FONT> </FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>So much for "pure" and "good" Tagalog being from the
provinces - like Bulacan! Seriously though, we know nothing of the
history - I don't mean etymology - of the KILA variant. In any
case, KILA is recognized as Tagalog and from what Panganiban says
and what my sources and I (as well as others) give witness
to, SINA and KILA have been in use in Manila
Tagalog.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Examining the 2 forms of the analytic case
paradigm I pointed out earlier, note that the first syllable of each
case form that <EM>encodes the case</EM> <EM>contrast</EM> (and
parallels the personal-name case-markers <STRONG>SI, NI, KAY</STRONG>) is
identical in A and B. The difference is in the
<EM><STRONG>non</STRONG>contrastive</EM> second syllable:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
(A)</FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2> (B)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
nominative
<STRONG>SI</STRONG>LA <STRONG>SI</STRONG>NA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
genitive
<STRONG>NI</STRONG>LA
<STRONG>NI</STRONG>NA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
dative/locative
<STRONG>KI</STRONG>LA <STRONG>KI</STRONG>NA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I hope this informs the issue at
hand. Paz</FONT></DIV>
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