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Richard,<br>
<br>
Yes, you are stretching things too much. Regular phonological
correspondences should be looked at carefully
before any comparison is proposed, especially at such a wide scale
(from Taiwan down to Vanuatu). Especially I would recommend having a
look at the phonological reconstructions proposed for intermediate
stages (POc, Proto North Central Vanuatu, etc.)<br>
<br>
In the case of north Vanuatu (Banks islands) languages, which I know
best, the variety of forms you point out can be shown, in each case, to
boil down to just one proto-form (at the level of putative Proto-North
Vanuatu, or perhaps Proto-North Central Vanuatu).<br>
<br>
For example, the set of forms "yeBe,leB, liBi, LaBea, livi" all
reflect regularly a form *<i>lavea</i>- 'formative for numbers between
6 to 9'; the forms with /r/ you cite (raB, rap, raf, raBe-) seem to
reflect a proto-form *<i>ravea</i>- for languages further south.<br>
<blockquote>"six" is (Proto-North V) *<i>lavea-te(w)a</i>, from *<i>lavea-</i>
+ *<i>tewa</i> 'one'; <br>
"seven" is *<i>lavea-rua</i>, from *<i>lavea-</i> + *<i>rua</i> 'two'; <br>
"eight" is *<i>lavea-tolu</i>, from *<i>lavea-</i> + *<i>tolu</i>
'three'; <br>
"nine" is *<i>lavea-vati</i>, from *<i>lavea-</i> + *<i>vati</i> 'four'.<br>
</blockquote>
There is no known etymology for this form. Semantically one would
expect a connection with 'five', POc *<i>lima </i> (through **<i>l(im)avea</i>??)
but this is far from clear. <br>
<br>
For another thing, "five" in this northern Vanuatu area comes from a
proto-form *<i>tave-lima</i>, obviously from POc *<i>lima</i> "hand;
five". The origin of the first element *<i>tave-</i> is unknown.<br>
<br>
The form for "one" was initially *<i>te(w)a</i> , as appears in "six";
this has become an indefinite or partitive marker in several Torres and
Banks languages (and hence a marker for negation, etc.). Used alone,
the form for "one" was replaced at some stage by a form which can be
reconstructed (still for this group of languages) as *<i>tuwa[l]e</i>.<br>
<br>
Several of these forms have been discussed in the following article: <br>
<blockquote>François, Alexandre. 2005. Unraveling the history of vowels
in seventeen north Vanuatu languages. <i>Oceanic Linguistics</i> 44-2
(Dec 2005): 443-504. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press.<br>
</blockquote>
There are other references around, concerning the many languages you
mentioned, as well as concerning reconstructions for numbers.<br>
<br>
There doesn't appear to be any likely connection between any of these
forms, and Pazeh <i>xaseb</i>.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Alex.<br>
<br>
<br>
PS: Incidentally, you were meaning morphemes, not phonemes.<br>
<br>
<hr size="2" width="100%">
<div align="right">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"><small>Alex François
LACITO - CNRS
7 rue Guy Môquet
F - 94801 Villejuif
FRANCE
email <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Alexandre.Francois@vjf.cnrs.fr">Alexandre.Francois@vjf.cnrs.fr</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm">http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alex.francois.free.fr">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a></small></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<hr size="2" width="100%"><br>
<br>
<br>
Richard Parker a écrit :
<blockquote cite="mid284941.23926.qm@web50203.mail.re2.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div>All through Vanuatu, the phoneme rab turns up as yeBe,leB, liBi,
<br>
LaBea, livi, raB, rap, raf, lardhe, rathe, always as part of the <br>
numbers 6-9 (5>1, 5>2, 5>3, 5>4). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>They put it first (raBe-ruwa=7=raBe-2), in Tangoa), very seldom
afterwards.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In 16 of the Banks Islands, N of Vanuatu, the word (5) is
prefixed by teBe-, as in teBe-lim. The word for (1) in these particular
languages is tea, twa, or tuwal.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It even turns up in Southwest Tanna, in kelke-lep-kelkalu
(7=5>2) but <br>
this is very literal - kelkelep is (5) and kelkalu is (2). The word <br>
for 'hand' is not kelkelep, but kwa|lm-</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Would I be right in deducing that this phoneme refers to 'my
other hand' or 'my 2nd hand' when counting? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I've come across similar root-phonemes elsewhere:</div>
<div><br>
Dawawa (An - E NG Milne Bay) - ra:bu (2), ra:bu the:ga (3=2+1), ra:bu <br>
be ra:bu (4=2+2). Dawawa has a particularly simple number system (10 <br>
= ra:bu be ra:bu be ra:bu be ra:bu the:ga).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Igora, Wagawaga, Bohutu, and Suau (An - E NG Milne Bay) all use <br>
labui as (2) and again as part of (7) haligigi labui. Here it <br>
is obviously a simple (2), and haligigi is the operative 'hand word'. <br>
The word for hand in Bohutu is 'nima'.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The same phoneme appears in Bunama (An - E NG Milne bay) as a <br>
standard word in 6-9 (ulabara-1, ulabara-2, etc) but in this, it <br>
changes, from saying 5>1, 5>2, 5>3, 5>4, to using a new
operative <br>
'hand word' - ulabara. (7) is now ulabara erua. (5) is lasapwai. <br>
I don't know what 'hand' is.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ubir (An - E NG S Oro Prov) uses reban in 6-9 words, as in
Vanuatu. <br>
(7) = nim at reban ruam - 5>at>reban>2. There are several An <br>
languages tucked in the Huon Gulf, just above the 'tail' of New Guinea
that use definite 'hand words' to make numbers from 6-9.:<br>
Sewa Bay - soubara<br>
Gapapaiwa - ura gela<br>
Kehe Iala - faligigi<br>
Budibud - kwelim </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Barok (An - New Ireland) uses 'lavanabas' in exactly the same
way. <br>
Lavanabas ma dura means (7). The word for hand in Barok is 'himine'.<br>
<br>
A similar phoneme occurs in Trans-New Guinea (non-Austronesian) <br>
languages, but as (3) - Momare (halabac=3) and the number 8 (icne <br>
halabac), and in Sene - (kalabac=3) and again in Dedua - (halebec=3) <br>
but nothing similar occurs in any other New Guinea language, so the <br>
phoneme is not a loanword from that source.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In Pasismanua (Kaulong) - West New Britain, the operative <br>
'hand-word' is 'isip' (5) as in sip-eta=6 (sip>1), sipi-wong
(sip>2), <br>
sipi-miok (sip>3), and sisinal (si-lost-a-bit-there>4=9). Their
word <br>
for (10) is supisip. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pasismanua is very unusual in using the 'sip' root for (5).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>SE Ambrym in Vanuatu uses ti-saB, for 6-9, and, unusually, puts
it AFTER the digit-number.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Certain languages in Vanuatu use a similar phoneme in (9 =
last-but-one?) as in ighe-siB, ghe-hiBe, xe-xBe, ighe-siB, xe-hiBe in
Malua Bay, Bieria (Vovo), Mpotovoro, Mae, and Vao. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Where a lot of Vanuatu languages make up (8) from a 6-word, like
Unua roptes=6, (7=roptes-2, 8=roptes-3, 9=ma-rope), this group uses
something approaching walu - ixe-wel, gho-al, ho-al, ixe-wel.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pazeh, one of the Taiwan languages, uses xaseb as its 'hand
word' for the numbers 5 and 6-9 (xasep (5), xaseb-uza(1)=6,
xaseb-i-dusa(2)=7, xaseb-i-turu(3)=8, and xaseb-i-supat(4)=9. The word
for (10) is ?isit - ghisit. Hand is ima or rima.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In Taiwan Saisiyat - aseb=(5) - then sayboshi for (6), and
sayboshi o ?aha? (6+1) for (7). (8) is kashpat (ka-4), and (9) is
aah?ha?. A quite different number-construction system.<br>
<br>
Taiwan Favorlang (5) = achab (but that only re-appears later on in <br>
numbers heavily disguised, like tannacho (9) and zchiett (10)).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Would it be stretching things too much to identify the Pazeh
xaseb <br>
with yeBe,leB,liBi, LaBea, livi, raB, rap, raf, lardhe, rathe, ra:bu, <br>
ro'ab, labui, isip, ti-saB, etc?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>regards</div>
<div><br>
Richard Parker<br>
Siargao Island, The Philippines. <br>
My website at <a href="http://www.coconutstudio.com">www.coconutstudio.com</a>
is about the island and its <br>
people, coastal early humans, fishing, coconuts, bananas and whatever <br>
took my fancy at the time.</div>
<div><br>
References:<br>
Numbers: <a href="http://www.zompist.com/numbers.htm">http://www.zompist.com/numbers.htm</a><br>
Languages: <a
href="http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/austronesian/language.php">http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/austronesian/language.php</a><br>
</div>
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