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<font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">Richard,<br>
<br>
reading your first email, <br>
</font></font>
<blockquote>
<div>> I lack a lot of information on numbers past 10 in WMP,
Polynesian,
Vanuatu, Micronesian and CEMP languages, and this is a little
frustrating.</div>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">I had noticed that you did
not mention New Caledonia; there are 28 Austronesian languages spoken
there, all the more interesting for you as that is a place where the
connection "20 = person" is commonly drawn.<br>
Now I can see that you do have information on some of them but you
wrongly locate them in Vanuatu. Both Iaai and Nengone (which you call
"Nengono") are spoken in the Loyalty Islands, New Caledonia.<br>
<br>
You will find other examples of the "20 = person" connection in other
languages of NC. <br>
Incidentally, nothing shows that this connection is more "primitive"
than any other. In fact</font></font><font size="+1"><font
face="Book Antiqua"> such a vigesimal system</font></font><font
size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua"> could well be a historical
innovation, and </font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">I'm
not aware </font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">
that POc had it. Careful investigation on that point would be worth a
try.<br>
<br>
best,<br>
Alex.<br>
</font></font>
<div align="right"><font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua">********</font></font><br>
Alex François<br>
LACITO - CNRS
<br>
7 rue Guy Môquet
<br>
F - 94801 Villejuif
<br>
FRANCE
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm">http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/membres/francois.htm</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alex.francois.free.fr">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a>
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<font size="+1"><font face="Book Antiqua"><br>
</font></font>
<hr size="2" width="100%"><br>
Richard Parker a écrit :
<blockquote cite="mid241959.69853.qm@web50202.mail.re2.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div>Ken,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Many thanks for your email </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have 'ta'au' for 20 in Tahitian, as well as the modern 'rua
ahuru'. Samoan uses 'lua sefulu'.</div>
<div>I have 'tekau' for Marquesan, Niuean, Tokelauan and Tongan. But
in Maori, where tekau meant 20, before contact, it now means only 10,
and 20 is rua tekau. So, they 'went fully decimal' post-Cook, (or
appear to have done).</div>
<div><br>
I have to confess that I had assumed that these words at least come
from the same root as 'man' or 'person' , simply because this is
the majority convention in more primitive numbering systems in
Melanesia, etc., where the connection is more direct.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Nengono (S Vanuatu) - 20 = sa re ngome (one the man)</div>
<div>Iaai (S. Vanuatu) - <font face="Arial Unicode MS">20, = khâca
at, or at ae bekhöt (at, man ; bekhöt, complete)</font></div>
<div>Kehelala (PNG) 20 = oloto emosi ihilage - or 'man one (he) dies'</div>
<div>Taiof (Solomons) 'tangau' = 'man' or 'fuan safuru' = '2x10'</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is a very fuzzy point in number evolution, where words
simply mean way-points in a body-part tally, or have become formalised
as real numerals, but it's very difficult to judge when, or if, this
has happened in any one language, if it's on the borderline.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For example, I can tell that lima 'is' 5 in Sio, because their
word for hand is 'mbau', but in Gitua, almost next door, 5 is nimanda
sirip, and hand is nima-, so it looks like it is still a body-part
tally. 10 is nimanda rua, so that confirms it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Any idea how the 'teens go in Polynesian languages, and whether
40 is 2x20 or 4x10 in these cases?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>best regards</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Richard<br>
</div>
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