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<big>Dear all,<br>
<br>
In the interest of discussion, I am forwarding to the list the message
I sent privately to Hilario & Wayne yesterday. [below]<br>
<br>
It will mainly confirm the tendency outlined by Nick and Bill. <br>
The polysemy <i>Say>Want</i> (as well as the grammaticalisation <i>Say>complementizer</i>),
while it is indeed well represented typologically, seems to be a
pattern even more densely represented among Oceanic languages. This is
true even when the forms are not cognate. <br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Alex.<br>
<br>
-------- Message original --------</big>
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<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline"><big>Sujet : </big></th>
<td><big>Re: [PapuanLanguages] Etymology of WANT</big></td>
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<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline"><big>Date : </big></th>
<td><big>Thu, 28 May 2009 13:53:46 +1000</big></td>
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<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline"><big>De : </big></th>
<td><big>Alex Francois <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:francois@vjf.cnrs.fr"><francois@vjf.cnrs.fr></a></big></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline"><big>Pour : </big></th>
<td><big><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:hilario.desousa@usyd.edu.au">hilario.desousa@usyd.edu.au</a></big></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline"><big>Copie
à : </big></th>
<td><big><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz">wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz</a></big></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<big><br>
<br>
Hi Hilario and Wayne,<br>
<br>
I know of several Oceanic languages from Vanuatu & Solomons</big>
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[details <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://alex.francois.free.fr/AF-field.htm">here</a>]
<big>which
have two ways to translate 'want'.<br>
</big>
<ul>
<big> </big>
<li><big>The 'lighter' way makes use of a verb 'say' (distinct from a
verb 'talk'), or a quotative
particle normally used for reported speech. <br>
Thus <i>I <u>say</u> I
drink water</i> "I'd like to drink some water"<br>
</big></li>
<big> </big>
<li><big> The heavier way makes use of a full-fledged verb, generally
the
same as
"like/love". Thus <i>I <u>like</u> that I drink water</i>.<br>
</big></li>
</ul>
<big>The second way I call 'heavier', first because the verb like/love
is
often phonologically heavier than the verb 'say'; and also, because
quite often this second strategy is in fact often a combination of the
"like" verb with the "say" verb/quotative particle.<br>
</big>
<ul>
<big> </big>
<li><font color="#000000"><big>in Araki [Espiritu Santo, Vanuatu] </big>(François
2002)<big>:</big></font></li>
</ul>
<blockquote><font color="#000000"><big> </big></font>
<blockquote><font color="#000000"><big>(1) <i>Nam <b>re</b> na
inu ai</i>.<br>
/1sg:R say 1sg:Irr drink water/<br>
<br>
(1’) <i>Nam opo-i-a nam <b>re</b> na inu ai</i>.<br>
/1sg:R like-Tr-3sg 1sg:R say 1sg:Irr drink water/<br>
<br>
"I want to drink water."<br>
(R=Realis; Irr=Irrealis)<br>
<br>
</big></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<ul>
<font color="#000000"><big> </big></font>
<li><font color="#000000"><big>in Teanu [Vanikoro, Solomons]:</big></font></li>
</ul>
<blockquote><font color="#000000"><big> </big></font>
<blockquote><font color="#000000"><big>(2) <i>Ni-<b>ko</b>
ne-le ne revo</i>.<br>
/1sg:R say 1sg:Irr-go Prep sea/<br>
<br>
(2’) <i>Awa ene i-viaine ni-<b>ko</b> ne-le
ne revo</i>.<br>
/throat 1sg 3sg-like 1sg:R say 1sg:Irr-go Prep sea/<br>
"I want to go to the sea."<br>
<br>
</big></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<ul>
<font color="#000000"><big> </big></font>
<li><font color="#000000"><big>in Mwotlap [Banks Is, Vanuatu] </big>(François
2003)<big>:</big></font></li>
</ul>
<blockquote><font color="#000000"><big> </big></font>
<blockquote><big><font color="#000000">(3) <i> Nok <b> so</b>
mitiy</i>.<br>
/1sg Quot~Desider sleep/<br>
<br>
(3’)<i> No ne-myōs<b> so</b> mitiy</i>.<br>
/1sg Stat-like Quot~Cplzr sleep/<br>
"I want to sleep."<br>
(Quot=Quotative; Cplzr= Complementiser)</font> <br>
</big></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><font color="#333333">Refs:<br>
</font><big> </big>
<ul>
<big> </big>
<li><font color="#333333">François, Alexandre. 2002. <i>Araki:
A disappearing language of Vanuatu</i>. Pacific Linguistics, 522.
Canberra: Australian National University. 375 pp.</font></li>
<big> </big>
<li><font color="#333333">François, Alexandre. 2003. <i>La
sémantique du prédicat en mwotlap (Vanuatu)</i>. Collection
Linguistique de la Société de Linguistique de Paris. Leuven-Paris:
Peeters. 408 pp.</font></li>
<big> </big>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<big>On another topic, several languages in the same area have a
polysemy '<i>sore,
hurt > extremely, two much</i>'. However, nowhere do these forms
mean anything like WANT.<br>
<br>
best,<br>
Alex.</big>
<br>
<hr size="2" width="100%"><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:f.lichtenberk@auckland.ac.nz">f.lichtenberk@auckland.ac.nz</a>
wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:947048D2B581C14C9EA483D3FD76896B0E609C599D@artsmail4.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Hilario and Wayne,
I think the person in Germany Andy Pawley has in mind is Olesya Khanina, who was working on a cross-linguistic study of 'want' a few years ago. She was at the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig at the time, and her address was <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:khanina@eva.mpg.de">khanina@eva.mpg.de</a>.
Frank Lichtenberk
-----Original Message-----
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:papuanlanguages-bounces@anu.edu.au">papuanlanguages-bounces@anu.edu.au</a> [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:papuanlanguages-bounces@anu.edu.au">mailto:papuanlanguages-bounces@anu.edu.au</a>] On Behalf Of Andrew Pawley
Sent: Thursday, 28 May 2009 1:37 p.m.
To: Papuan languages discussion list
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>; Wayne Lawrence (ARTS ASI); <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:papuanlanguages@anu.edu.au">papuanlanguages@anu.edu.au</a>
Subject: Re: [PapuanLanguages] Etymology of WANT
Dear Hilario and Wayne
There are probably many other comparative sources but I suggest you start with a look at Cliff Goddard and Anna Wierzbicka (eds), 1994. Semantic and Lexical Universals, 387-421. Benjamins: Amsterdam. This has essays on various languages that describe how 'want' and the editors' 50 or so other putative universals are expressed.
In the Papuan (Trans New Guinea family) language I know best, Kalam, 'X wants something' is expressed literally as 'X says "I get something!" ', or X says 'we get something!", using the hortative of the verb d- 'get, have, control, etc.' (where an alternative literal translation for 'I get something' might also be 'let me get something'. That is, in Kalam someone's thought processes are expressed as internal quoted speech, and wanting is viewed as a thought process. My paper in that volume is "Kalam exponents of lexico-semantic primitives." I think this mode of expressing want is widespread among Papuan languages of New Guinea.
A few years ago a PhD student in Germany wrote to me saying she was looking at the origins of 'want' expressions in Fijian and Polynesian languages, maybe just at the history of the peverbal desiderative particle Fijian via, PPn *fia. Unfortunately I forget her affiliation, maybe it was at one of the MPIs. I have the impression that in Oceanic languages, as in Tok Pisin, desiderative 'want' is likely to be expressed by, or come from a verb of liking. Not surprising, but kind of boring for a typologist looking for extreme sourrces.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hilario De Sousa <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hilario.desousa@usyd.edu.au"><hilario.desousa@usyd.edu.au></a>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:00 am
Subject: [PapuanLanguages] Etymology of WANT
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:papuanlanguages@anu.edu.au">papuanlanguages@anu.edu.au</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz">wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">*sorry for cross-posting*
Dear Austronesianists/Papuanists,
Wayne Lawrence (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz">wp.lawrence@auckland.ac.nz</a>) is looking into the
grammaticalisatin of 'desideratives' (both lexical and grammatical).
For instance, English «want» is grammaticalised from an original
meaning of 'lack'. An interesting case is the Japanese verbal suffix
«-tai», which is said to come from «itai» 'sore, hurts', via
'extremely'
(the earliest instances of -itai, in the late Heian period, have the
interpretation of 'very'. The path SORE --> EXTREMELY is also found
in German «sehr» 'very', c.f. English «sore»). Do you know of any
other examples of EXTREMELY --
</pre>
<pre wrap="">WANT? The etymology of WANT in other languages would also be hugely
appreciated.
Hilário de Sousa on behalf of Wayne Lawrence
_______________________________________________</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<hr size="2" width="100%">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr Alex FRANÇOIS
LACITO - CNRS, France
2009-2011: Visiting Fellow
Dpt of Linguistics
Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies
Australian National University
ACT 0200, Australia
Home address:
20 Hamelin Crescent, Narrabundah, ACT 2604, Australia
ph: [h] (+61)-2-6166 5569
[w] (+61)-2-6125 1664
[mob] (+61)-4-50 960 042
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://alex.francois.free.fr">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a>
</pre>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dr Alex FRANÇOIS
LACITO - CNRS, France
2009-2011: Visiting Fellow
Dpt of Linguistics
Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies
Australian National University
ACT 0200, Australia
Home address:
20 Hamelin Crescent, Narrabundah, ACT 2604, Australia
ph: [h] (+61)-2-6166 5569
[mob] (+61)-4-50 960 042
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alex.francois.free.fr">http://alex.francois.free.fr</a>
</pre>
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