<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Aren’t we forgetting here the
arbitrary nature of the relationship between sound and symbol? Any symbol can
represent any phoneme, therefore any script with sufficient symbols is adequate
to represent any phonology. As I recall, nobody claimed that the Korean symbols
would have the same ‘powers’ as in Korean.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au [mailto:an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>David Mead<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, August 09, 2009
12:56 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> an-lang@anu.edu.au<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [An-lang] Korean
script for Cia-Cia</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi,<br>
<br>
Besides <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>1.</span></b> glottal stop, <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>2.</span></b> the l -r contrast and <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>3.</span></b> the voiced/unvoiced versus
aspirated/unaspirated mismatch which Chris mentions, <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>4.</span></b> Cia-cia also has implosive b and d as distinct
phonemes. Perhaps they use Hangul doubled consonants for those?. But
of course, Korean pp and tt are "tense" (glottalized? faucalized?
lengthened?) consonants, not implosives. (BTW, according to Greenberg
1970 "Some generalizations concerning glottalic consonants", IJAL
36:123–145, there is a universal correlation of implosion with <u>laxness</u>.)
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>5.</span></b> Also, Korean is like English in
that /ng/ occurs only at the end of syllables. My understanding about
Hangul, however, is that the same symbol (a circle) is used to represent both
/ng/ (when it occurs as the final of a syllable block), and zero (when it
occurs as the initial of a syllable block) (that is, representing a syllable
without any onset consonant). Since Cia-cia allows /ng/ at the beginning
of syllables, and also has syllables without consonant onsets (not to mention
syllables with glottal stop onset), I'm not sure how they would/could represent
the difference in Hangul. (To be fair to Sejong the Great, these were
originally different symbols, but over time merged graphically so that now it
is considered just one "letter".)<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>6.</span></b> Finally, Korean syllables have
at most only one onset consonant, whereas Cia-cia has prenasalized consonants
mp, mb, nt, ns, nd, ngk, & ngg, as in the words <i><span style='font-style:
italic'>ndoke </span></i>'monkey' and <i><span style='font-style:italic'>nggaanggaa</span></i>
'crow'. Hmm, would these require some innovative Hangul consonant
digraphs, or resurrecting some obsolete ones? I'm not sure about
that. <br>
<br>
If I'm wrong about anything I've said about Hangul I hope someone will correct
me. <br>
<br>
David Mead<br>
<br>
<br>
At 8/7/2009 11:46 AM -0700, Christopher Sundita wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I am able to read/write Han'geul/Korean script and going by the words
for the numbers 1-10 in Cia-Cia, it looks like that they're probably had to
make some modifications in the script.<br>
<br>
For example, in Korean, the distinction between voiced and unvoiced consonants
is not phonemic; instead it's aspirated & unaspirated (as well as
"tense" sounds) When transliterating foreign words into Korean,
voiced sounds are represented by the unaspirated letters and the unvoiced ones,
the aspirate ones.<br>
<br>
Looking at the words for 4 (pa'a) and 6 (no'o), I wouldn't know how they would
write a glottal stop in Han'geul.<br>
<br>
Also, it looks like /r/ and /l/ are sounds in Cia-Cia, however in Han'geul they
are written with the same letter. Korean has both sounds, but only in allophonic
variation.<br>
<br>
I see a photo of the book they published: <a
href="http://photo-media.daum-img.net/200908/06/yonhap/20090806063009295.jpg">http://photo-media.daum-img.net/200908/06/yonhap/20090806063009295.jpg</a>
It says "bahasa cia-cia" on the cover. I think
"bahasa" looks right, but I wonder why they wrote "cia-cia"
with the letters they did. <br>
<br>
--Chris Sundita<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Fri, 8/7/09, John Ulrich Wolff <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><juw1@cornell.edu></span></i></span></b> wrote:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>From: John Ulrich Wolff <juw1@cornell.edu> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Subject: [An-lang] Korean script for Cia-Cia <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>To: an-lang@anu.edu.au <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:01 AM <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Re: John Bowden's citation of the article in the
Jakarta Globe about <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>the Korean script to transcribe Cia-Cia. Does
anyone know how <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>adequate the Korean script is to transcribe
Cia-Cia? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Wolff <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>