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Yes, from that perspective points 3 and 4 are minor issues. But at
points 1, 2, and 5 there really may be an insufficiency of symbols.
6 may only be an issue for Unicode and/or for those who program how
Hangul characters combine into syllable blocks, not for Hangul
itself. In fact as I was turning this over in my mind, it occurred
to me that maybe what they've done or what you could do for a word like
<i>ndoke </i>'monkey' is to turn it into an orthographic trisyllable,
using a vowel character which by convention everyone agrees is always
"silent" for Cia-cia, e.g. n^ - do - ke
or ^n - do - ke. <br><br>
At any rate, I think we could debunk the notion that Korean is
_inherently_better than Latin for representing Cia-cia. If anything
they are equal or maybe I'd give a slight edge to Latin-based (for which
only the implosive b and d are slightly problematic). If you want
to talk about transfer to the national language, then Latin definitely
wins. However, my experience in working with other people on Buton
Island (but not the Cia-cia) is that they'd just as soon transfer to an
international language, because of the greater promise of economic
advancement. So if Korea's providing that avenue (and let's hope
they do for a long time), then Hangul is the way to go. From the
articles, the new script seems to have become a reason for Cia-cia people
to take pride in their language, and that's a good thing. <br><br>
Hmm, if they use Hangul, then they don't have to learn any capitalization
rules, right? That's a bonus right there!<br><br>
David Mead<br><br>
<br>
At 8/10/2009 04:05 PM +1200, Paul Geraghty wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2 color="#000080">
Aren’t we forgetting here the arbitrary nature of the relationship
between sound and symbol? Any symbol can represent any phoneme, therefore
any script with sufficient symbols is adequate to represent any
phonology. As I recall, nobody claimed that the Korean symbols would have
the same ‘powers’ as in Korean.<br>
<br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></font></div>
<font face="Tahoma" size=2><b>From:</b> an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au
[<a href="mailto:an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au" eudora="autourl">
mailto:an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David
Mead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 09, 2009 12:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> an-lang@anu.edu.au<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [An-lang] Korean script for Cia-Cia<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman, Times"> <br>
Hi,<br><br>
Besides <b>1.</b> glottal stop, <b>2.</b> the l -r contrast and
<b>3.</b> the voiced/unvoiced versus aspirated/unaspirated mismatch which
Chris mentions, <b>4.</b> Cia-cia also has implosive b and d as distinct
phonemes. Perhaps they use Hangul doubled consonants for
those?. But of course, Korean pp and tt are "tense"
(glottalized? faucalized? lengthened?) consonants, not implosives.
(BTW, according to Greenberg 1970 "Some generalizations concerning
glottalic consonants", IJAL 36:123–145, there is a universal
correlation of implosion with
<u>laxness</u>.) <br><br>
<b>5.</b> Also, Korean is like English in that /ng/ occurs only at the
end of syllables. My understanding about Hangul, however, is that
the same symbol (a circle) is used to represent both /ng/ (when it occurs
as the final of a syllable block), and zero (when it occurs as the
initial of a syllable block) (that is, representing a syllable without
any onset consonant). Since Cia-cia allows /ng/ at the beginning of
syllables, and also has syllables without consonant onsets (not to
mention syllables with glottal stop onset), I'm not sure how they
would/could represent the difference in Hangul. (To be fair to
Sejong the Great, these were originally different symbols, but over time
merged graphically so that now it is considered just one
"letter".)<br><br>
<b>6.</b> Finally, Korean syllables have at most only one onset
consonant, whereas Cia-cia has prenasalized consonants mp, mb, nt, ns,
nd, ngk, & ngg, as in the words <i>ndoke </i>'monkey' and
<i>nggaanggaa</i> 'crow'. Hmm, would these require some
innovative Hangul consonant digraphs, or resurrecting some obsolete
ones? I'm not sure about that. <br><br>
If I'm wrong about anything I've said about Hangul I hope someone will
correct me. <br><br>
David Mead<br><br>
<br>
At 8/7/2009 11:46 AM -0700, Christopher Sundita wrote:<br><br>
I am able to read/write Han'geul/Korean script and going by the words for
the numbers 1-10 in Cia-Cia, it looks like that they're probably had to
make some modifications in the script.<br>
<br>
For example, in Korean, the distinction between voiced and unvoiced
consonants is not phonemic; instead it's aspirated & unaspirated (as
well as "tense" sounds) When transliterating foreign words into
Korean, voiced sounds are represented by the unaspirated letters and the
unvoiced ones, the aspirate ones.<br>
<br>
Looking at the words for 4 (pa'a) and 6 (no'o), I wouldn't know how they
would write a glottal stop in Han'geul.<br>
<br>
Also, it looks like /r/ and /l/ are sounds in Cia-Cia, however in
Han'geul they are written with the same letter. Korean has both sounds,
but only in allophonic variation.<br>
<br>
I see a photo of the book they published:
<a href="http://photo-media.daum-img.net/200908/06/yonhap/20090806063009295.jpg">
http://photo-media.daum-img.net/200908/06/yonhap/20090806063009295.jpg</a>
It says "bahasa cia-cia" on the cover.
I think "bahasa" looks right, but I wonder why they wrote
"cia-cia" with the letters they did. <br>
<br>
--Chris Sundita<br><br>
<br>
--- On <b>Fri, 8/7/09, John Ulrich Wolff
<i><juw1@cornell.edu></i></b> wrote: <br>
From: John Ulrich Wolff <juw1@cornell.edu> <br>
Subject: [An-lang] Korean script for Cia-Cia <br>
To: an-lang@anu.edu.au <br>
Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 7:01 AM <br>
Re: John Bowden's citation of the article in the Jakarta Globe about
<br>
the Korean script to transcribe Cia-Cia. Does anyone know how <br>
adequate the Korean script is to transcribe Cia-Cia? <br>
John Wolff <br>
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