Hi, Bill:<div><br></div><div>The idea of tenseless Tagalog verbs dates back many years ago. Wolfenden (1961) had voice, aspect, and voice-mode categories in the verb, and no mention of tense. I'd be interested to know how McKaughan (1958) classified the verb affixes in Maranao; it's hard to get a copy of this work. By mid-1970s, after the publication of Schachter & Otanes (1972), the idea was mainstream, except in Philippine schools, of course.</div>
<div><br></div><div> Interesting that Palaweno uses -umin- as aspect marker for the -um- verbs. Prof Reid has an account of -umin- > -um-. If -in- in -umin- is the same aspect marker -in- in patient verbs, then -um- would have to be the voice marker of actor verbs. But this view is not without problems. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Contemplated and prospective are two other terms I've seen used in opposition to perfective. </div><div>Resty</div><div><br></div><div>Wolfenden, Elmer. 1961. A Restatement of Tagalog Grammar. </div>
<div>McKaughan, Howard. 1958. The Inflection and Syntax of Maranao Verbs.</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 8:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:an-lang-request@anu.edu.au">an-lang-request@anu.edu.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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1. Re: An-lang Digest, Vol 98, Issue 9 (Bill and Donna Davis)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:15:04 +0800<br>
From: Bill and Donna Davis <<a href="mailto:bill-donna_davis@ntm.org">bill-donna_davis@ntm.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [An-lang] An-lang Digest, Vol 98, Issue 9<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>" <<a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5858C2EE-4FE2-4135-9FDE-713561625861@ntm.org">5858C2EE-4FE2-4135-9FDE-713561625861@ntm.org</a>><br>
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<br>
Hi David and everyone,<br>
<br>
Cena and Nolasco are on target. I've seen that there is no tense (but rather aspect) in S. W. Palawano as well. (Resty... interesting, though, that Palawano's completed aspect for <-um-> is <-umin->; doesn't seem that for us the <-in-> is only PV, unless it's a homophonous coincidence.)<br>
<br>
When I studied Tagalog, we were given the concept of completed, incompleted, future and 'basic' (the affix+root form with no reduplication) but as I learned Palawano, some of those terms went out the window.<br>
<br>
Luther's point is interesting in light of what I've been pondering on Palawano aspect. (I would appreciate feedback from anyone on my thinking on this.) For the four aspects, I started with a somewhat standard grid of initiated(begun) vs. non-initiated(non begun) and completed vs. incomplete, giving four possibilities (which match our four forms). But that created a logically impossible cell of "non-initiated+completed" which would correspond to the so-called (but not!!) "future." Palawano uses this not-really-future (irrealis) form for timeless and potential events as well as "future", even when describing past/completed events in a narrative. So I changed the grid to completed vs. incomplete and potential vs. actual. The Potential vs. Actual event might be close to what Luther mentions, Prof. Wolfe's "real/unreal."<br>
<br>
-Bill<br>
<br>
<br>
On Aug 15, 2011, at 10:00 AM, <a href="mailto:an-lang-request@anu.edu.au">an-lang-request@anu.edu.au</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Send An-lang mailing list submissions to<br>
> <a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a><br>
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
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> Today's Topics:<br>
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> 1. Re: An-lang Digest, Vol 98, Issue 8 (Scott Robertson)<br>
> 2. Re: Irrealis imperative? (somewhat OT) (<a href="mailto:john@research.haifa.ac.il">john@research.haifa.ac.il</a>)<br>
><br>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:19:18 +0800<br>
> From: Scott Robertson <<a href="mailto:aircaraccess@millenicom.com">aircaraccess@millenicom.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] An-lang Digest, Vol 98, Issue 8<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a><br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4E4730A6.9070905@millenicom.com">4E4730A6.9070905@millenicom.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
><br>
> Chris,<br>
><br>
> Begun/not begun is the same thing as realis/irrealis in Cebuano. Prof.<br>
> Wolfe's books call them real/unreal. Cebuano has a third time<br>
> mode--infinitive, or tenseless or abstract or whatever you want to call<br>
> it. I like to call it surrealis to make it fit with realis/irrealis but<br>
> no one else will want to use that.<br>
><br>
> I found the concept of relative tense particularly useful for Cebuano<br>
> time modes, since there is no distinction made between present and past<br>
> time sense provided by the realis affix. Context such as time words or<br>
> cause/effect words provides the distinction. Then the irrealis is often<br>
> used when there is a past or present time sense in more formal grammar,<br>
> though speakers of Visayan seem to be getting away from that and using a<br>
> redundant realis affix when a time word in the context has already<br>
> marked the sentence as having a past time sense.<br>
><br>
> Luther<br>
><br>
>> I have a question on the terminology. I first encountered the "Begun/Not<br>
>> Begun" distinction a few years ago in the context of a Cebuano grammar<br>
>> sketch written by UP Diliman linguist Jessie Grace Rubrico (and then later<br>
>> on, I saw the terminology in Reid 1992). But I think this may be actually<br>
>> irrealis/realis mood. What's your (and others') take on this?<br>
>><br>
>> As far as the ambiguity of Tagalog -um- is concerned. Until the 20th<br>
>> century, Tagalog had the infix -ungm- which was used for the aspects under<br>
>> the realis mood, imperfective& perfective. It's a reflex of<br>
>> Proto-Austronesian *-umin- and there are reflexes of this in other<br>
>> Philippine languages. My recently-completed undergrad thesis focuses on<br>
>> this.<br>
>><br>
>> --Chris Sundita<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Resty Cena<<a href="mailto:restycena@gmail.com">restycena@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> paradigm is irregular,all other affix voice paradigms are regular and<br>
>>> comparable. The irregularity ofthe -um-affix stems from the fact that the<br>
>>> aspect Begun uses it as well(bumili, bumibili), rather than switching to an<br>
>>> n variant, theway the infinitive of mag-verbs do it, for example, magbili<br>
>>> becomes nagbiliand nagbibili. But then, -um-cannot use -in- to express<br>
>>> Begun, for that would be the same form asthe Begun aspects of a patient<br>
>>> verb. It could have invented *-un-, todistinguish it from -in-, but, I<br>
>>> guess, it must be thinking, ?Well, Ialready have the -um- form, so I?ll just<br>
>>> use it rather than inventanother infix. That should confuse linguists.?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:53:16 +0300<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:john@research.haifa.ac.il">john@research.haifa.ac.il</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] Irrealis imperative? (somewhat OT)<br>
> To: "Kroeger, Paul" <<a href="mailto:paul_kroeger@gial.edu">paul_kroeger@gial.edu</a>><br>
> Cc: "<a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>" <<a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a>><br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1313322796.4e47b72c75744@webmail.haifa.ac.il">1313322796.4e47b72c75744@webmail.haifa.ac.il</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255<br>
><br>
> There are many languages around the world in which both the<br>
> irrealis(/subjunctive) and the imperative are marked with the maximally<br>
> unmarked verbal form.<br>
> John<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Quoting "Kroeger, Paul" <<a href="mailto:paul_kroeger@gial.edu">paul_kroeger@gial.edu</a>>:<br>
><br>
>> In Urim (PNG, non-Austronesian), I believe the irrealis form is the standard<br>
>> way to mark an imperative.<br>
>><br>
>> -- Paul Kroeger<br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au">an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au">an-lang-bounces@anu.edu.au</a>] On<br>
>> Behalf Of Roger Mills<br>
>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 1:22 PM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:an-lang@anu.edu.au">an-lang@anu.edu.au</a><br>
>> Subject: [An-lang] Irrealis imperative? (somewhat OT)<br>
>><br>
>> An interesting, possibly amusing, question has arisen in quite another<br>
>> context: Does anyone know if, in languages with a well-marked/well-defined<br>
>> irrealis mode, can there be an "irrealis imperative"?<br>
>><br>
>> Roger Mills<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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