<div>Hi all,</div><div>Briefly: The consensus so far on payung is that it is probably a Malay loan and that the primary meaning is 'umbrella' or 'parasol', and other senses are metaphoric extensions of this. Many of you pointed out that <i>gunting</i> is also in Malay and that the Visayan word is probably a Malay loan. One of you drew attention to the correspondence with the Malay <i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">runcing </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'sharp'</span> . As for salapi and takuri there are some interesting theories, including Jean-Paul Gotet "<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Probably Tag. sálap "fees, salary" + Tag. -î.", and the existence of the root <i>taku</i> ('gourd') in languages of southeast Sulawesi.</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><u>Full responses are worth reading for their detail. I have included them below for the record (apologies if I missed any): </u></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><u><br></u></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><div>Hi Piers, </div><div>Just on those examples it looks to me more like the basic meaning for payung is 'umbrella', and the other meanings are simply metaphorical extensions for "things that look like / function like umbrellas". The use of payung for halos around the heads of saints supports this, since they too 'protect' or at least are physically associated with the head, like umbrellas. Then using it for the sun/moon is another metaphorical extension since the sun is already metaphorically linked to the the head (cf Indonesian/Malay mata hari) as is the moon (cf the legend of kala rau in Bali, the giant's head, which has counterparts elsewhere, deriving ultimately from India (can send reference, not with me now). </div>
<div><br></div><div>I think you would need to find examples of payung used for circular or ring-shaped things in general, with nothing inside the ring/circular which could be compared to the umbrella-head configuration, to posit 'ring-shaped' as prior. Similarly to support 'cap-shaped' as prior you would want to find examples less easily explained in terms of metaphorical extension than mushrooms. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I wonder if payung is a loan from Malay in Philippines lgs (cf Wolff on Malay loans in Tagalog). Possibly an etymology p-ayung could be investigated (from Javanese?). </div><div><br></div><div>best, </div>
<div><br></div><div>Adrian Clynes</div><div>***</div><div><div>Dear Piers,</div><div><br></div><div>That is a very interesting question. the "protoform" is listed</div><div>in Dempwolff (1938) as well as in Wolff (2010). In the latter</div>
<div>it is assigned to an unidentified "subgroup". It is surprisingly</div><div>not in Bob Blust's ACD, not even under "loanwords" or even "noise".</div><div>Whatever the case, it seems not unlikely that it is a secondary</div>
<div>lexical item in the respective languages where it occurs, and the</div><div>dispersal of the word was to a considerable degree (if not entirely)</div><div>the result of Malay contacts.</div><div><br></div><div>I did a little search on Ian Proudfoot's MCP and found it to be</div>
<div>ubiquitous in "Hikayat Hang Tuah" (dating after first contact with</div><div>Portuguese), but extremely rare in "Hikayat Seri Rama" (a post-</div><div>-islamisation adaption of a pre-Islamic translation of Valmiki's</div>
<div>"Ramayana"), and not even once in "Hikayat Bayan Budiman" (a 14th</div><div>century translation from Persian).</div><div><br></div><div>I would surmise in a first guess, that it emerged in Malay some</div>
<div>time in the 15th - 16th centuries. Will try to look around some more</div><div>to find out, whether I could find from where the word came.</div><div><br></div><div>In any case, the meaning of all cognates listed in Wolff (2010) is</div>
<div>either 'umbrella' or 'parasol'. not 'ring' or 'circle'. The umbrella</div><div>or parasol in Malay culture was not originally something to protect</div><div>one from either rain or sun, but was mainly a ceremonial symbol of</div>
<div>rank. royal umbrellas could be many-tiered (like the roof of a pagoda),</div><div>so that the meaning 'circle' may derive from the ring-formed lower</div><div>tiers. Just a guess, though.</div><div><br></div>
<div>Good luck in your search.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Waruno</div></div><div>***</div><div style="text-decoration:underline"><br></div></font></div><div><br></div><div>The following could as easily represent borrowings into Yapese from the west (Philippines?), but they are fascinatingly similar:</div>
<div> </div><div>dagur ‘empty coconut shell used as a container’</div><div>salpiy ‘money’</div><div> </div><div>Note that salpiy could be related to:</div><div> </div><div>salp- ‘welfare’ (obligatorily possessed – e.g. salpeeg ‘my welfare’</div>
<div> </div><div>Don’t know if this is of interest, but both words struck me. As I said, my assumption, at least for salpiy, is that it is a borrowing. I had always assumed dagur to be a native word, but if it is borrowed, it could be from Palauan (and I don’t know a Palauan source) – for the matter of that, salpiy could be from Palau which in its turn could have borrowed from the west.</div>
<div> </div><div> </div><div>jj</div><div> </div><div>John Thayer Jensen,</div><div>System Administrator, Digital Services,</div><div>The University of Auckland Business School</div><div> </div><div>Room 260-4136, 12 Grafton Road</div>
<div> </div><div>DDI: +64 9 923-7543</div><div>mobile: +64 21 85-1904</div><div>quickdial: 60001</div><div>FAX: +64 9 373-7696</div><div> </div><div><a href="http://inquietumcor.blogspot.com">http://inquietumcor.blogspot.com</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>***</div><div><div>Hi Piers, </div><div><br></div><div>I don't have any first-hand expertise to offer on these, but perhaps I can give you a couple of pointers that might lead to something interesting. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Jean-Paul Potet has this to say à propos of salapî in his recent book Numbers and Units in Old Tagalog:</div><div><br></div><div>«</div><div>① Probably Tag. sálap "fees, salary" + Tag. -î. The suffix -î is evidence by other derivatives such ast Tag. bálot "wrap" ▶ balútì "(leather) armour" (SB 1613:481:peto|N&S 1860:035). ② The derivation sálap ▶ salapî may have neen influenced by Ar. Aašrafii ﺍشرفي [ʔaʃrafiː] "gold coin, ducat" (Kaz. 1:1219). </div>
<div>» (p. 299)</div><div><br></div><div>As for gunting, this word is also used in Malay. It has interesting postitional correspondences with the Malay runcing 'sharp' (as in bambu runcing 'sharpened bamboo lances'). It seems plausible that the two words might both go back to a proto-form *Runcing: certainly the /g/ is a fairly widespread reflex of *R and /t/ a possible reflex in some language, though my knowledge is too superficial to go beyond these observations. Maybe this will lead to something useful; if so, I would be quite happy. I have been puzzled over the possible etymological relationships between gunting, runcing, and rencong/incung (small knife used among other things to write South Sumatran script, also known as surat incung or rencong). </div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Chris Miller</div><div><br></div><div>==========================</div><div>Christopher Miller</div><div>43 chemin du Grand-Moulin</div><div>Deux-Montagnes QC</div><div>J7R 3C3</div>
<div>Canada</div><div><br></div><div>+1 514-568-9949</div><div><br></div><div><a href="mailto:christophermiller@mac.com">christophermiller@mac.com</a></div><div>==========================</div></div><div>***</div><div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Hi Piers,</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
I recognize "salapi" and "gunting" as Tagalog words. I never heard of "takuri" but it's listed in Carl Rubino's 2002 Tagalog dictionary, so I suppose it is too. It reminds me of the Japanese "tokkuri" which is the container where you pour sake from, but I think it's just a coincidence.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
I thought that "gunting" was from Min Nan/Hokkien Chinese, but I can't find it in Gloria Chan-Yap's 1977 "Hokkien Chinese borrowings in Tagalog." But one dictionary lists it "ka to" as the word in Min Nan. And that's quite a stretch from the Tagalog word. An online Cantonese dictionary lists the word 較剪 /ga:u33 tsin35/ which may be plausible. Also, "gunting" is used in Indonesian.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Salapi - I see it's used in Igorot & in Chamorro. Arsenio Manuel's 1948 "Chinese elements in the Tagalog language" says:</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<table width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><strong>Salapi</strong>. [cho( make) -pi (money) ; chai(riches, properties, money)- piek, silver in general, riches, fortune, money; chai(money)- pit(satin.silk), money in general; chai(money)-pi(any form of money), money in general.] <b>...</b><br>
</td></tr></tbody></table></div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">This is from a Google Books snippet and unfortunately I don't have access to the complete work right now.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Trinidad H. Pardo de Tavera's 1887 "El Sánscrito en la lengua tagalog" (Sanskrit [words] in the Tagalog language) offers this (which I translated from Spanish, though I caution you it's not a perfect translation!):</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
salapi, money: "isang salapi" a "salapi" or coin of 4 Reales fuertes (10 realles de vellón)[Spanish currency], or it may be half hard, one escudo [Spanish currency again]. Sanskrit "rûpya," gold or silver coins: today "rupya" is the coin in INdia whose value varies between 2 to 2.5 pesetas, that's to say, half hard. It's evident to me that the Sanskrit origin of the word "salapi" which is composed of "sa," contraction of "satu" (one) in Malay, or of "isa," in Tagalog and a corruption of the word "rupya" or "rupia." In this corruption, we see "R" transforming into its equivalent "L" and from "U" to "A," a common occurence, not only in Malayo-Polynesian languages, but also in Sanskrit itself: the final "A" which was lost probably due to the rules of Tagalog writing, which happened to the words "samal," "sabat," "santal," "asal," "bigal" which are in this list as being of Sanskrit origin. This word must have been imported into Tagalog in the form that it has now, or at least as "salapia," because the Tagalogs don't consider it a compound word, but as the simple name of a unit of currency in general. This appears plausible when we hear: "isang salapi," "tatlong salapi," which mean "one salapis, three salapis," as if "salapi" when in reality it's made up of a number and means "one lapi." Thus, then, "isang salapi," "tatlong salapi," mean "one one-lapi," "three one-lapi," with which I believe has been demonstrated that the word arrived in Luzon transformed. Whether "salapi" means a special coin and money in general is not a rare thing. And without going beyond Malayo-Polynesian languages, we can cite an example: in Javanese "hartâ," as in Sanskrit "artha," which properly indicates riches, treasures, goods, came to later mean a kind of little coin of little value (1) I suppose that in Tagalog, the meaning of money in general was secondary and consecutive to the meaning of a special coin. In Ibanag, you count in the same way you do in Tagalog, taking "salapi" as a unit of currency, as we have shown in the "Bahagi" article: this way of counting money is very general in the whole archipelago.</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Hope this helps in some way,</div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
--Chris</div><span class="HOEnZb" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#888888"><div class="gmail_quote"> </div><div class="gmail_quote">-- <br>Christopher Sundita<br>
BA Linguistics, University of Washington 2011<br>Data Specialist, Google<br></div></font></span><div class="HOEnZb" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div class="adm" style="margin-top:5px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:5px;margin-left:0px">
<div id="q_1373004e252b4544_2" class="ajR h4" style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:11px;background-color:rgb(241,241,241);border-top-width:1px;border-right-width:1px;border-bottom-width:1px;border-left-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-left-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(221,221,221);border-right-color:rgb(221,221,221);border-bottom-color:rgb(221,221,221);border-left-color:rgb(221,221,221);clear:both;line-height:6px;outline-style:none;outline-width:initial;outline-color:initial;width:20px">
</div></div></div></div><div> </div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">***</font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi Piers</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I don't have anything to say about </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">takuri </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">or </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">salapi </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">but </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">gunting </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">is used for 'scissors' in Indonesian (and also used to mean 'haircut' too). </span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">In some dialects of Malay, payung can be used for not just umbrella but also for other kinds of protection / wrapping / cover. I once had a T shirt bought in Ambon, eastern Indonesia with the slogan 'bulan pake payung tortoruga batelor' 'when the moon is wearing a payung the turtles lay eggs'. The picture on the T shirt had the moon with a kind of halo around it.</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Dunno if that helps but you got it anyway! </span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">cheers</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">John Bowden</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">***</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi Piers,</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Here's a little data from central/southeastern Sulawesi (final consonant loss is the rule in these languages) I'm not aware of cognates outside of this area, but maybe you can show me the way! The original reference appears to have been the bottle gourd, </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Lagenaria siceraria</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> and to calabashes (the dried out, ligneous shells of bottle gourds, usually put to some use). </span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Pamona </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'gourd'</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Tolaki </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'gourd'</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Moronene </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'gourd for collecting palm toddy'</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Padoe </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'a kind of plant (its fruit can be made into a jar for palm wine)'</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Mori Bawah </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">'gourd, calabash (especially one made into a drinking vessel)' also in compounds such as:</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<u style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><u style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku ulu</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> 'cranium' [</span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">ulu</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> = head]</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<u style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><u style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></u><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku eme</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> 'bladder' [</span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">eme </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">= urine]</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Mori Atas </span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">taku benu</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> 'coconut shell' [</span><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">benu </i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">= coconut]</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">David Mead</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">***</span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Of course <i>gunting</i> is also Malay, but I don’t know its origin. The Malay dictionaries I looked at do not suggest any foreign source, so it doesn’t seem like a recent borrowing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Paul Kroeger</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">***</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">gunting is the same in Malay - A. Ogloblin</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<font color="#1f497d" face="'Courier New'"><br></font></p></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(16,0,128)">Piers Kelly | PhD Scholar</span><div>
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(16,0,128)">Linguistics, College of Asia and the Pacific</span></div><div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(16,0,128)">The Australian National University</span></div>
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