Hi,<div>Re "payong". </div><div><br></div><div>"Yungyong" ("to cover") is a Tagalog root. </div><div><br></div><div>Nakayungyong ang mangga sa bakod.</div><div>"The branches of the manggo tree reaches down close to and over the fence to provide a shade to the fence." </div>
<div><br></div><div>Coincidence?</div><div><br></div><div>rc<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:an-lang-request@anu.edu.au" target="_blank">an-lang-request@anu.edu.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. summary: payung, gunting, salapi, takuri (Piers Kelly)<br>
<br>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 18:54:08 +1000<br>
From: Piers Kelly <<a href="mailto:Piers.Kelly@anu.edu.au">Piers.Kelly@anu.edu.au</a>><br>
Subject: [An-lang] summary: payung, gunting, salapi, takuri<br>
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Hi all,<br>
Briefly: The consensus so far on payung is that it is probably a Malay loan<br>
and that the primary meaning is 'umbrella' or 'parasol', and other senses<br>
are metaphoric extensions of this. Many of you pointed out that *gunting* is<br>
also in Malay and that the Visayan word is probably a Malay loan. One of<br>
you drew attention to the correspondence with the Malay *runcing *'sharp' . As<br>
for salapi and takuri there are some interesting theories, including<br>
Jean-Paul Gotet "Probably Tag. s?lap "fees, salary" + Tag. -?.", and the<br>
existence of the root *taku* ('gourd') in languages of southeast Sulawesi.<br>
<br>
*Full responses are worth reading for their detail. I have included them<br>
below for the record (apologies if I missed any): *<br>
*<br>
*<br>
Hi Piers,<br>
Just on those examples it looks to me more like the basic meaning for<br>
payung is 'umbrella', and the other meanings are simply metaphorical<br>
extensions for "things that look like / function like umbrellas". The use<br>
of payung for halos around the heads of saints supports this, since they<br>
too 'protect' or at least are physically associated with the head, like<br>
umbrellas. Then using it for the sun/moon is another metaphorical extension<br>
since the sun is already metaphorically linked to the the head (cf<br>
Indonesian/Malay mata hari) as is the moon (cf the legend of kala rau in<br>
Bali, the giant's head, which has counterparts elsewhere, deriving<br>
ultimately from India (can send reference, not with me now).<br>
<br>
I think you would need to find examples of payung used for circular or<br>
ring-shaped things in general, with nothing inside the ring/circular which<br>
could be compared to the umbrella-head configuration, to posit<br>
'ring-shaped' as prior. Similarly to support 'cap-shaped' as prior you<br>
would want to find examples less easily explained in terms of metaphorical<br>
extension than mushrooms.<br>
<br>
I wonder if payung is a loan from Malay in Philippines lgs (cf Wolff on<br>
Malay loans in Tagalog). Possibly an etymology p-ayung could be<br>
investigated (from Javanese?).<br>
<br>
best,<br>
<br>
Adrian Clynes<br>
***<br>
Dear Piers,<br>
<br>
That is a very interesting question. the "protoform" is listed<br>
in Dempwolff (1938) as well as in Wolff (2010). In the latter<br>
it is assigned to an unidentified "subgroup". It is surprisingly<br>
not in Bob Blust's ACD, not even under "loanwords" or even "noise".<br>
Whatever the case, it seems not unlikely that it is a secondary<br>
lexical item in the respective languages where it occurs, and the<br>
dispersal of the word was to a considerable degree (if not entirely)<br>
the result of Malay contacts.<br>
<br>
I did a little search on Ian Proudfoot's MCP and found it to be<br>
ubiquitous in "Hikayat Hang Tuah" (dating after first contact with<br>
Portuguese), but extremely rare in "Hikayat Seri Rama" (a post-<br>
-islamisation adaption of a pre-Islamic translation of Valmiki's<br>
"Ramayana"), and not even once in "Hikayat Bayan Budiman" (a 14th<br>
century translation from Persian).<br>
<br>
I would surmise in a first guess, that it emerged in Malay some<br>
time in the 15th - 16th centuries. Will try to look around some more<br>
to find out, whether I could find from where the word came.<br>
<br>
In any case, the meaning of all cognates listed in Wolff (2010) is<br>
either 'umbrella' or 'parasol'. not 'ring' or 'circle'. The umbrella<br>
or parasol in Malay culture was not originally something to protect<br>
one from either rain or sun, but was mainly a ceremonial symbol of<br>
rank. royal umbrellas could be many-tiered (like the roof of a pagoda),<br>
so that the meaning 'circle' may derive from the ring-formed lower<br>
tiers. Just a guess, though.<br>
<br>
Good luck in your search.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Waruno<br>
***<br>
<br>
<br>
The following could as easily represent borrowings into Yapese from the<br>
west (Philippines?), but they are fascinatingly similar:<br>
<br>
dagur ?empty coconut shell used as a container?<br>
salpiy ?money?<br>
<br>
Note that salpiy could be related to:<br>
<br>
salp- ?welfare? (obligatorily possessed ? e.g. salpeeg ?my welfare?<br>
<br>
Don?t know if this is of interest, but both words struck me. As I said, my<br>
assumption, at least for salpiy, is that it is a borrowing. I had always<br>
assumed dagur to be a native word, but if it is borrowed, it could be from<br>
Palauan (and I don?t know a Palauan source) ? for the matter of that,<br>
salpiy could be from Palau which in its turn could have borrowed from the<br>
west.<br>
<br>
<br>
jj<br>
<br>
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The University of Auckland Business School<br>
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***<br>
Hi Piers,<br>
<br>
I don't have any first-hand expertise to offer on these, but perhaps I can<br>
give you a couple of pointers that might lead to something interesting.<br>
<br>
Jean-Paul Potet has this to say ? propos of salap? in his recent book<br>
Numbers and Units in Old Tagalog:<br>
<br>
?<br>
? Probably Tag. s?lap "fees, salary" + Tag. -?. The suffix -? is evidence<br>
by other derivatives such ast Tag. b?lot "wrap" ? bal?t? "(leather) armour"<br>
(SB 1613:481:peto|N&S 1860:035). ? The derivation s?lap ? salap? may have<br>
neen influenced by Ar. Aa?rafii ????? [?a?rafi?] "gold coin, ducat" (Kaz.<br>
1:1219).<br>
? (p. 299)<br>
<br>
As for gunting, this word is also used in Malay. It has interesting<br>
postitional correspondences with the Malay runcing 'sharp' (as in bambu<br>
runcing 'sharpened bamboo lances'). It seems plausible that the two words<br>
might both go back to a proto-form *Runcing: certainly the /g/ is a fairly<br>
widespread reflex of *R and /t/ a possible reflex in some language, though<br>
my knowledge is too superficial to go beyond these observations. Maybe this<br>
will lead to something useful; if so, I would be quite happy. I have been<br>
puzzled over the possible etymological relationships between gunting,<br>
runcing, and rencong/incung (small knife used among other things to write<br>
South Sumatran script, also known as surat incung or rencong).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Chris Miller<br>
<br>
==========================<br>
Christopher Miller<br>
43 chemin du Grand-Moulin<br>
Deux-Montagnes QC<br>
J7R 3C3<br>
Canada<br>
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<a href="mailto:christophermiller@mac.com">christophermiller@mac.com</a><br>
==========================<br>
***<br>
Hi Piers,<br>
<br>
I recognize "salapi" and "gunting" as Tagalog words. I never heard of<br>
"takuri" but it's listed in Carl Rubino's 2002 Tagalog dictionary, so I<br>
suppose it is too. It reminds me of the Japanese "tokkuri" which is the<br>
container where you pour sake from, but I think it's just a coincidence.<br>
<br>
I thought that "gunting" was from Min Nan/Hokkien Chinese, but I can't find<br>
it in Gloria Chan-Yap's 1977 "Hokkien Chinese borrowings in Tagalog." But<br>
one dictionary lists it "ka to" as the word in Min Nan. And that's quite a<br>
stretch from the Tagalog word. An online Cantonese dictionary lists the<br>
word ?? /ga:u33 tsin35/ which may be plausible. Also, "gunting" is used in<br>
Indonesian.<br>
<br>
Salapi - I see it's used in Igorot & in Chamorro. Arsenio Manuel's 1948<br>
"Chinese elements in the Tagalog language" says:<br>
*Salapi*. [cho( make) -pi (money) ; chai(riches, properties, money)- piek,<br>
silver in general, riches, fortune, money; chai(money)- pit(satin.silk),<br>
money in general; chai(money)-pi(any form of money), money in general.] *...<br>
*<br>
This is from a Google Books snippet and unfortunately I don't have access<br>
to the complete work right now.<br>
<br>
Trinidad H. Pardo de Tavera's 1887 "El S?nscrito en la lengua tagalog"<br>
(Sanskrit [words] in the Tagalog language) offers this (which I translated<br>
from Spanish, though I caution you it's not a perfect translation!):<br>
<br>
salapi, money: "isang salapi" a "salapi" or coin of 4 Reales fuertes (10<br>
realles de vell?n)[Spanish currency], or it may be half hard, one escudo<br>
[Spanish currency again]. Sanskrit "r?pya," gold or silver coins: today<br>
"rupya" is the coin in INdia whose value varies between 2 to 2.5 pesetas,<br>
that's to say, half hard. It's evident to me that the Sanskrit origin of<br>
the word "salapi" which is composed of "sa," contraction of "satu" (one) in<br>
Malay, or of "isa," in Tagalog and a corruption of the word "rupya" or<br>
"rupia." In this corruption, we see "R" transforming into its equivalent<br>
"L" and from "U" to "A," a common occurence, not only in Malayo-Polynesian<br>
languages, but also in Sanskrit itself: the final "A" which was lost<br>
probably due to the rules of Tagalog writing, which happened to the words<br>
"samal," "sabat," "santal," "asal," "bigal" which are in this list as being<br>
of Sanskrit origin. This word must have been imported into Tagalog in the<br>
form that it has now, or at least as "salapia," because the Tagalogs don't<br>
consider it a compound word, but as the simple name of a unit of currency<br>
in general. This appears plausible when we hear: "isang salapi," "tatlong<br>
salapi," which mean "one salapis, three salapis," as if "salapi" when in<br>
reality it's made up of a number and means "one lapi." Thus, then, "isang<br>
salapi," "tatlong salapi," mean "one one-lapi," "three one-lapi," with<br>
which I believe has been demonstrated that the word arrived in Luzon<br>
transformed. Whether "salapi" means a special coin and money in general is<br>
not a rare thing. And without going beyond Malayo-Polynesian languages, we<br>
can cite an example: in Javanese "hart?," as in Sanskrit "artha," which<br>
properly indicates riches, treasures, goods, came to later mean a kind of<br>
little coin of little value (1) I suppose that in Tagalog, the meaning of<br>
money in general was secondary and consecutive to the meaning of a special<br>
coin. In Ibanag, you count in the same way you do in Tagalog, taking<br>
"salapi" as a unit of currency, as we have shown in the "Bahagi" article:<br>
this way of counting money is very general in the whole archipelago.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps in some way,<br>
<br>
--Chris<br>
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Sundita<br>
BA Linguistics, University of Washington 2011<br>
Data Specialist, Google<br>
<br>
***<br>
Hi Piers<br>
<br>
I don't have anything to say about *takuri *or *salapi *but *gunting *is<br>
used for 'scissors' in Indonesian (and also used to mean 'haircut' too).<br>
<br>
In some dialects of Malay, payung can be used for not just umbrella but<br>
also for other kinds of protection / wrapping / cover. I once had a T shirt<br>
bought in Ambon, eastern Indonesia with the slogan 'bulan pake payung<br>
tortoruga batelor' 'when the moon is wearing a payung the turtles lay<br>
eggs'. The picture on the T shirt had the moon with a kind of halo around<br>
it.<br>
<br>
Dunno if that helps but you got it anyway!<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
John Bowden<br>
***<br>
Hi Piers,<br>
<br>
Here's a little data from central/southeastern Sulawesi (final consonant<br>
loss is the rule in these languages) I'm not aware of cognates outside of<br>
this area, but maybe you can show me the way! The original reference<br>
appears to have been the bottle gourd, *Lagenaria siceraria* and to<br>
calabashes (the dried out, ligneous shells of bottle gourds, usually put to<br>
some use).<br>
<br>
Pamona *taku *'gourd'<br>
Tolaki *taku *'gourd'<br>
Moronene *taku *'gourd for collecting palm toddy'<br>
Padoe *taku *'a kind of plant (its fruit can be made into a jar for palm<br>
wine)'<br>
Mori Bawah *taku *'gourd, calabash (especially one made into a drinking<br>
vessel)' also in compounds such as:<br>
** ***taku ulu* 'cranium' [*ulu* = head]<br>
** ***taku eme* 'bladder' [*eme *= urine]<br>
Mori Atas *taku benu* 'coconut shell' [*benu *= coconut]<br>
David Mead<br>
<br>
***<br>
<br>
Of course *gunting* is also Malay, but I don?t know its origin. The Malay<br>
dictionaries I looked at do not suggest any foreign source, so it doesn?t<br>
seem like a recent borrowing.****<br>
<br>
** **<br>
<br>
Paul Kroeger<br>
<br>
***<br>
<br>
gunting is the same in Malay - A. Ogloblin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Piers Kelly | PhD Scholar<br>
Linguistics, College of Asia and the Pacific<br>
The Australian National University<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>