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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>The phonotactic constraints outlined in the previous posts were of much help for me to make sense of the ‘volatile’ final /h/ in Malay, whether actually pronounced or not. <br><br>I should add that this phenomenon is not limited to early romanisations of Malay. I have also found it in Old Javanese literature (although not in any consistent way):<br><br><i>dasih</i> ‘servant’ < Sanskrit <i>dāsī</i><br><i>gajah</i> ~ <i>gaja</i> ‘elephant’ < Sanskrit <i>gaja</i><br><i>patih</i> ‘high official’ < Sanskrit <i>pati</i><br><i>ratih</i> ~ <i>rati</i> ‘pleasure’ < Sanskrit <i>rati</i><br><i>warih</i> ~ <i>wari</i> ‘water’ < Sanskrit <i>vāri</i><br><br>David’s comment on the discrepancy between orthographic representations and actual pronunciations is well appreciated and may also hold true for the above attestations.<br><br>Tom<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 11:45:24 +0900<br>From: gil@eva.mpg.de<br>To: an-lang@anu.edu.au<br>Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')<br><br>
Sorry to be so finicky about these little phonological details, but
the list of loanwords with final <i>h</i> offered by Tom
Hoogervorst, while perhaps corresponding to the orthographic
conventions of Standard Indonesian, does not correspond to the
reality of any of the couple of dozen or so dialects of Malay and
Indonesian that I can vouch for. In particular, for all of the
dialects that I am familiar with, there is a distinction between <i>teh</i>
'tea', in which the final <i>h</i> is invariably preserved, and
most or all of the other loanwords cited by Tom, in which the <i>h
</i>is either completely absent, or present only in phrase-final
positions.<br>
<br>
(My colleague Tim McKinnon has suggested that the above distinction
between <i>teh</i> and most/all other words with supposedly final <i>h</i>
is due to a principle of minimality, whereby a simple CV would be
too small to constitute a proper word; hence the <i>h</i> is
invariably retained. However, in at least some of the dialects that
I am familiar with, CV words (with no final <i>h</i> or glottal
stop) are possible, albeit dispreferred.)<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
PS Football provides a great source for new loans, which, arguably,
enter straight into local dialects rather than being mediated
through the standard language or a higher-prestige local dialect.
We recently ran a little "experiment" (more like a game, actually)
whose output was a large corpus of naturalistically produced Messis
and Ronaldos, in different syntactic environments, in Jakarta
Indonesian. We're still working on coding the results, but
impressionistically, there was variation between final vowels, final
<i>hs </i>and final glottal stops.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix">On 19/02/2015 23:00, Tom Hoogervorst
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:DUB127-W374ABA21276065994D73DACD2D0@phx.gbl">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">Dear list,</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">Further to Waruno’s point on the appearance of
final
/h/ in Malay vernaculars, it may be added that this tendency
is also attested in some loanwords:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"> <br>
</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">əngkah</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘glue’ < Hokkien <i>n̂g-ka</i> (</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"PMingLiU",serif;" lang="ZH-TW">黃膠</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">)</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">gajah</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘elephant’ < Sanskrit <i>gaja</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">galuh</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘gem’ < Sanskrit <i>galū</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">patih</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘chief minister’ < Sanskrit <i>pati</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">rupiah</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘a kind of coin’ < Sanskrit <i>rūpya</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">səkolah</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘school’ < Portuguese <i>escola</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">səparuh</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘one half’ < Javanese <i>səparo</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="NL">teh</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="NL"> ‘tea’
< Hokkien <i>tê</i> (</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"PMingLiU",serif;" lang="ZH-TW">茶</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="NL">)</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">In addition, the following examples have a
word-final
/h/ in Malaysia but not in Indonesia:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">jaguh</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘champion’ < Javanese <i>jago</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">tempoh</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">
‘time’ < Portuguese <i>tempo</i></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">It would seem, as was pointed out before, that
this
reflects underexplored processes of interdialectical
borrowing prior to the standardization of Malay.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;" lang="EN-US">Tom Hoogervorst</span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="ecxmoz-signature">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
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